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==Untitled==
I wish that before changing the Welsh name of the Assembly people would actually make sure that what was there before was wrong (it wasn't... see the Assembly's ).

-- ] 23:28, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)


==Ty Hywel/Tŷ Hywel== ==Ty Hywel/Tŷ Hywel==
Shouldn't Ty Hywel be spelt as "Tŷ Hywel" with it's correct Welsh spelling? Also for the main Tŷ Hywel page? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 17:59, 22 February 2009 (UTC)</small>


== Kudos to above RFC result ==
Shouldn't Ty Hywel be spelt as "Tŷ Hywel" with it's correct Welsh spelling? Also for the main Tŷ Hywel page?
Thank goodness '''Welsh Parliament''' got a place in the article's intro. Otherwise, a non-Welsh language fellow such as I, would've immediately figured ''Senedd'' to have meant ''Senate of Wales'' or ''Welsh Senate''. ] (]) 22:19, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

== Why is the Union flag used here ==

Surely the Welsh flag is more appropriate in this context
] 09:21, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Presumably the UK flag is used because, as it says in the caption, this article is part of the series ''Politics of the United Kingdom'' and the flag is associated with the series and not the Welsh Assembly. If it offends your sensibilities why don't you add a Welsh Flag?
--] 16:02, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:''Politics '''of''' the United Kingdom'', though, notice -- not ''Politics '''in''' the United Kingdom''. I have removed this template for reasons of consistency: it does not figure on the ] or the ] pages. The present article needs a PoliticsWales template similar to the PoliticsScotland one. I know... I'm working on it. -- ] 10:01, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::Can't say I'm convinced there is any real distinction between ''Politics of...'' and ''Politics in...''. Wales is in the UK, so its politics are politics of the UK (look at how Blair was so desperate to get Alun Michael as First Minister). Anyway, the question was about why the Union flag appeared in an article on Wales (and the answer is that it didn't, it appeared in the Politics of the UK template), not whether Welsh politics are British politics. Personally I think that the politics of all regions of England and other nations in the UK would constitute ''Politics in the UK'', but it is a different question. I think the point about consistency is important though.] 17:46, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

== High-end? ==

''The Assembly will have a new, high-end assembly chamber''

Can anyone explain what this means exactly? And which end of the chamber will be high? -- ] 09:24, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:Yes, I've often wondered what it meant as well.] 17:46, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

::High budget. They're pouring a ton of money into the building. ]] ] 16:28, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

== Something interesting ==

I have changed some articles that declare the First Minister as " Assembly First Minister" when really he is now "Welsh First Minister". When the Welsh Assembly Government was set-up in 2000, The First Minister declared that him and the Cabinet are separate of the Assembly, but are elected and answerable to the Assembly. This article has noted right by saying "First Minister and his Cabinet comprises of Welsh Assembly Government". Most articles on this Misplaced Pages are based on the period between 1999 and 2000. I am interested in other people comments about this.

] 19:36, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

:Officially he's known as the First Minister ''for'' Wales. I don't know if this is because of the current obsession the government has with the word "for" (e.g. it's use in the name of government departments, where "of" would once have been used...) or whether it's to avoid implying Wales has its own Prime Minister!

:Originally he was known as the First ''Secretary''. The reason for this was allegedly that there aren't separate words for "First" and "Prime" in Welsh, so if the title was "First Minister", this would be "Prime Minister" in Welsh. Now they seem to have changed it to First Minister - I must have missed that as I don't remember reading about it. --] 23:42, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

::I don't see ehy they couldn't have used "Prif Weinidog" or "Gweinidog Cyntaf"... "Prif Weinidog" is used to describe both the UK PM and the Welsh FM. -- ] 00:27, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

:::I now see it's actually explained on the ] page. However, I still think it should be "First Minister ''for'' Wales". Googling with "for" finds all the official sites, "of" doesn't, so perhaps I'll move the other article. Update: it was on an old version of that page (found via Google) but someone's removed it without giving a reason. I'll reinstate it. --] 19:46, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
::::Hi Draig goch20, what do you think this means: ''The First Minister declared that him and the Cabinet are separate of the Assembly...''. I can't understand what this is supposed to mean. The assembly has a ] setup, so unless I haven't fully appreciated the subtleties of the system, there is no separation of power between the executive and the assembly (like in the USA, where members of the executive are not members of congress). So members of the executive remain full members of the assembly. So how can they be ''separate''? The first minister was either wrong, or there is something here I have missed. Can anyone explain?] 17:46, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
:::::Presumably he was distinguishing between the Assembly and the '']'' - the WAG is the First Minister and the other ministers. -- ] 17:59, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
::::::But they are still members of the Assembly, so there is no separation of powers. I mean that the WAG is in and of the Assembly, and so not seperate from it. It is one thing to differentiate between the executive and the legislature, but it is another to claim that the executive is '''seperate''' from the legislature.] 09:04, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

==Expansion request==

What laws ''does'' the Welsh Assembly have the power to pass, and has it passed any of signficance? Are they codified somewhere online? -- ] 23:49, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

::The National Assembly only has secondary laws to pass, no primary legislation. Though this might change after 2007. - ] 14:49, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

==Wales and England==
I think that this statement:<br>
''This is largely because, unlike other parts of the United Kingdom, Wales has always had the same legal and administrative system as England.''<br>
is not only totally incorrect, but displays ignorance about Welsh history. Wales was only annexed in 1536, but even after that was administered somewhat differently to England in many cases (education for example). This is documented well in ''A History of Wales'' by John Davies ({{ISBN|0140145818}}). Unfortunately my brother has my copy so I can't check the details. I'm going to modify this.] 17:46, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
:I've included links to
*Acts of Union 1536-1543
*Acts of Union 1707
*Union With Britain 1806-1922 (Ireland article)
:] 18:06, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Can we get a picture of the debating chamber?

== Senedd v/s Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru ==

I have heard that at the official opening ceremony the name of the assembly will be translated into Senedd, rather then Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. Technically the former translates to an independent national Senate on par with with a parliament or congress, and the latter is the technically correct translation for assembly. The Dragon's Eye reports that Queen Elizabeth may refer to it as the Senedd in her speech. Any comments on this?] 19:59, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
:Having visited the new building (which is very smart, BTW), it appears that the name ''Senedd'' might refer to the building itself, as this name appears in English notices throughout the building (e.g. "Welcome to the Senedd"), while references to the elected members still refer to ''Assembly'' in the English notices and ''Cynulliad'' in the Welsh. 18:01, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, this is correct. The institution is called the Assembly or y Cynulliad depending on language. "y senedd" refers only to the building. They were the Assembly in the old building and continue to be in the new, but only their NEW home in Cardiff Bay is called the senedd. ] 00:38, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

== Abbreviation ==

I have changed '''NAW''' to '''NAfW'''. Google's first reference to the Assembly under ''NAW'' is result 9, whereas for ''NAfW'', not only is one of the top results from a local authority (] County Council), but its first alternative suggested search is "national assembly for wales". More importantly, having worked in both local and central government, as well as with NAfW bodies themselves, the dominant abbreviation in official use is without any doubt NAfW. Didn't come across NAW even once in official documents during that time. 18:06, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
:PS, doesn't throw up the Assembly under NAW, only NAfW.

:Shouldn't both be included seeing as gets over double the ghits as and I seem to remember seeing both on official documents. Possibly it would be good to find out if there is any official document specifying a preferred acronym, or, indeed, whether any acronym is official.
:] ] ] 14:00, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

==Spot the weasel words competition==
Please refrain from using ], if you have a point, use references to back it up. ''Weasel words don't really give a neutral point of view; they just spread hearsay, or couch personal opinion in vague, indirect syntax. It is better to put a name and a face on an opinion than to assign an opinion to an anonymous source.''<br>
'''''Many cite''' the fact that it is majoritively the English taxpayer propping up the Welsh Assembly and paying the salaries of those whom work there.... '''Another argument''' cites the Act of Union 1707. This Act states that there shall be one parliament for the United Kingdom. The current Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly '''are contended''' have the powers of separate parliaments, and are therefore '''said to be''' breaking the Act of Union....establishing of the Welsh Assembly '''is also be viewed'''(''sic'') as federalisation, such as in the European Union, '''which many''' in the mainly centralised United Kingdom are opposed to.'' ] 17:50, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


== The National Assembly for Wales is not in charge of UK Government depts in Wales ==
Who the hell made this comment? The Assembly has no power over UK Governments depts in Wales. The Assembly only has power over it's own depts. Someone has purposely put the wrong facts in here. The UK Government controls it's own depts in Wales and the Assembly controls it's own under what powers it's got. Seriously, this part of the article surely is wrong.<small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

::The Welsh Assembly Government has it's own departments people, the department of Environment and Agriculture and the Department of Education and Lifelong Learning and the Department of Health and Social Care, etc. Whoever wrote that the Assembly Government controls the UK Government departments in Wales has got their facts wrong surely, as the UK Government would never hand over responsibility of their own departments to another legislature, that legislature would have to create their own under the Government of Wales Act 1998.

::Under the new law, Government of Wales Act 2006, the monarch has a larger role, the Assembly will have Orders-In-Council to pass and each Assembly Government department is in full control of the Welsh Assembly Government, not controlled by the Welsh Assembly on behalf of the UK Government - who would never do that anyway.

] 14:40, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

::Since this section has been ignored, in order that this information IS factually incorrect, I am going to remove "Responsible for UK Government departments". If anyone wants to object, feel free to leave all your objections at my talk page - thanks. If this is disputed I shall request the page to be locked down until the edit dispute is over.

] 12:15, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

==Opposition to the Assembly==
This section has remained largely unverified for some time now. I am wondering what purpose it serves to maintain information here that breaches the ] policy. The original editor(s) have not seen fit to provide supporting material, and much of it seems to be waffle anyway. ] 16:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

==Proportionality==
The electoral system used for the assembly does not produce overall proportionality. See ], where Labour got 40% of votes, but 48% of the seats, Plaid got 21% of the vote and 20% of the seats, Tories 19.9% of the vote and 18.3% of the seats, Lib-Dems 14% of votes and 10% of the seats. Labour still takes a lot more seats than it should, a little form Plaid, a little from the Tories and a lot from the Lib-Dems. In a proportional system Labour would have got 24 seats (they got 29), Plaid 13 (12), Tories 12 (11), Lib-Dem 9 (6), UKIP 1 (0). This comes to 59, discrepancies like this are usually overcome depending on the electoral system used. The most proportional systems are ] (disputed), ] and of course the AMS if the number of ''top up'' seats were larger, especially if they were on a national level, I think a 50:50 chamber would produce proportionality. ] 06:10, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


:The proportionality is across the whole assembly not just the list members. You keep insisting on a phrasing that badly obscures this. AMS can occur in variants where the list members are used to correct the overall representation towards proportionality, or the list element can be parallel to the constituency element, i.e. the list element is proportional only within itself and is an entirely separate election conducted without reference to the constituency element. If you feel that my wording doesn't make it clear enough that the overall proportionality is fairly approximate, try to clarify, don't simply remove the information. Overhang seats would be another possible method of achieving better proportionality, Germany uses them as even with a 50:50 split parties have still been known to get more constituencies than they deserve.] 15:39, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

::*''The proportionality is across the whole assembly not just the list members.''-No one has made this claim, but the assembly does not achieve proportionality. ] 17:22, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
::*''You keep insisting on a phrasing that badly obscures this.''- No I don't, your original wording stated that the assembly elections achieved ''overall proportionality'', but they don't, it was your form of words that were misleading, my wording differs to yours only in that I claim ''a degree of proportionality'', whereas you claim ''overall proportionality'', I think my form of words is more accurate because my phrase does not claim true proportionality. ] 17:22, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
::*In actual fact the system used in Wales is not particularly proportional. Deviations from proportionality are due to three reasons. Firstly the number of top-up seats is two small to produce good proportionality. Secondly there are several regional lists rather than a nation wide list, this produces some bias. Thirdly each voter has two votes, one for the regional list and one for their constituency representative, because voters can split their votes between two parties it is apparent that a party could get better/worse results for the regional list than for their constituency vote, leading to over/under-representation in the legislature. ] 17:22, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


::: The point is the top up is intended to go towards proportionality across the whole assembly there is another variant of AMS in which the list election is independent of the results of the constituency element it needs to be stated clearly that this system is not the one used here. My problem with your phrasing is that it obscures that the list members correct the overall representation towards proportionality rather than being a separate element proportional only within itself (I've noticed newspapers get this wrong quite often). Mentioning the various caveats on the actual achievement of overall proportionality is useful, overall proportionality is however what the system aims at.20:28, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

::::The system is not overall proportional, it is merely '''more''' proportional than FPTP. It would produce greater proportionality if the additional members gained their seats based on the parties share of the votes from FPTP, as it is a voter can vote for Labour for their FPTP representative and for another party entirely for their regional list representative. So in 2003 Labour got 40% of the vote in the FPTP election, but only 36.6% of the vote in the regional list election, so some people were obviously voting for a labour candidate, but for a different party's list. It would also produce greater proportionality if the proportion of additional members was higher (50% instead of 33%). It would also produce greater proportionality if the additional members were elected on a nation wide level rather than a regional level. The system does not produce overall proportionality, neither does it ''aim at this'', if they had wanted to introduce a system that ''aimed at overall proportionality'' then they wouldn't have chosen this system, they could easily have chosen a system where 30 members were directly elected and 30 were additional members, they could have determined proportionality based on the share of the vote the party got from the combined votes for the FPTP election and of course there is no reason for them to have produced the regional lists rather than a nation wide list. The point is that proportionality is not what they were aiming for, they wanted to maintain Labour's in-built over-representation (due to the corrupt of FPTP system) whilst ''appearing'' to produce a proportional system. The outcome was a ''better'' system than FPTP, but certainly nothing approaching an ''overall proportional'' system. My edit did not state that it is only the lists that are proportional, and I have no idea why you are making this assertion. ] 17:43, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::I'm not claiming that you are asserting that the list element is parallel, what I am annoyed at is you ''keep removing wording that makes it clear that it isn't''. the list corrects the overall representation for each region towards proportionality, it doesn't necessarily ''achieve'' full proportionality, it does ''aim'' towards it. If the list were parallel then and only then would the system not be aiming towards overall proportionality.] 19:58, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The list system does not ''correct the overall representation for each region towards proportionality''. The proportions for the parties on the list elections can be (and are often) different to the parties proportions for the FPTP part of the election. So the list element does not produce the same ''proportionality of vote'' as the FPTP system, this is evidenced by the Labour Party gaining a significantly ''reduced'' share of the vote on the regional list part of the ballot compared with their proportion of the vote in the FPTP element of the election in 2003. Indeed the ''list element'' '''is''' ''parallel'' as it is in effect a separate '''election''' as any voter can vote for any party's list irrespective of their vote in the FPTP part of the election. So effectively they are separate elections. In theory a party could achieve a much larger share of the list vote than of the FPTP vote and gain seats from the list system even without putting candidates up for the FPTP election. Any proportionality achieved is based exclusively on the proportion of votes a party achieves in the list election. I do not understand what you mean when you write ''you keep removing wording that makes it clear that it isn't''. The regional list elections are '''independent of the FPTP elections''', but the proportion of representatives elected from a list is not '''independent''' of the number of directly elected AMs. I think we need to come to a form of words upon which we can both agree. The current form of words is:
*''The additional members correct the overall representation of each region towards proportionality, rather than being elected in parallel to the constituency element, the corrective effect is somewhat limited by the low proportion of list members and the regionalisation of the list element.''

How about this:
*''The additional members produce a greater degree of proportionality only within each region (and only for the proportions the parties achieve for the list election), which limits overall proportionality. Whereas voters can choose any regional party list irrespective of their party vote in the constituency election, list AMs are not elected independently of the constituency element, rather elected constituency AMs are deemed to be pre-elected list representatives for the purposes of calculating remainders in the ]. Overall proportionality is limited by the low proportion of list members (one third of the Assembly) and the regionalisation of the list element.''

<del>I will not amend the text in the article until we come to</del> I have amended the text and hope I have produced a form of words we can both live with. Let's not edit war, if you are unhappy with this form of words then let's discuss it here untill we are both happy. It may mean that we need to go into a bit more detail about the electoral system used, but this may be a good thing. Comments are appreciated. I have used a BBC site as a reference for the changes I have made. ] 06:11, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I have moved this information to the ''Electoral system'' section. ] 11:35, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

:Seems like decent wording.

:We don't use parallel vote, that is a variant of AMS where the elections for the constituency and list representatives are ''entirely'' independent. This is much less proportional than the system we actually use. The main source of dis-proportionality is the large number of Labour overhang seats and the lack of any mechanism for giving the other parties supernumerary seats to compensate for this] 14:17, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

::Yes you are right, this is why I have linked to MMP rather than AMS. ] 15:09, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I note use in the article of a link to "]". I believe that although the system for elections to the Welsh Assembly is called an ''additional member system'' in relevant legislation, additional member systems generally are not necessarily designed to produce anything like PR. Linking to "]" might be better, perhaps using "]" (a potential article site?) as a redirect. ] 18:56, 31 October 2006 (UTC).

:Um, it says in the article '''''Under ] a type of ]<ref>'''' in ''PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION VOTING SYSTEMS'', '''': '''PR Library''' created by Professor Douglas J. Amy, Department of Politics, Mount Holyoke College. Retrieved 8 July 2006.</ref><ref name="erf">'''': '''Electoral Reform Society''', information regarding ] elections. Retrieved 9 December 2005.</ref>'''''
<references/>
:So mention is made that the system is a mixed member system '''and''' that this system is a form of AMS. It is true that MMP is often called AMS in the UK, but strictly speaking MMP is simply a type or sub-group of AMS. I think this is what the article actually says. It's also referenced, and the texts linked to in the references give more detail regarding additional member systems generally. Actually the assembly is not particularly proportional due to the small number of top ups seats and the inclusion of regional lists rather than a Wales wide top up area, but that's another story. ] 06:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

The more I think about it the more I feel it would be a good idea to have an article specifically about the system used in elections to the Welsh Assembly or, perhaps, one about the different systems used in Wales or throughout the United Kingdom. ] 10:12, 1 November 2006 (UTC).

:That's not a bad idea at all. I'd be happy to contribute to such an article. ] 12:25, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

==Moved things around a bit==
I have placed the ''History'' section at the start of the article and have split the ''Richard Commission'' content into a new section. I think the sections are now a bit more chronological in order. I have also been looking to try to verify some of the info here. I'll continue to tinker with the article and look for more references. Hope this looks OK. ] 18:00, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

==Map of referendum==
DO we really need this map? It is an odd map, the referendum was held accross Wales, the verdict was not decided by winning ''unitary authorities'', but by winning a majority accross the whole country. This map appears to indicated that certain authorities voted ''yes'' and others ''no'' and that this is somehow relevant to the outcome of the election. It is supremely misleading. It would be better to show the Yes/No split within the authorities by ''shading'', like map of the 2004 US presidential election, that shows that most states are ''purple'', ie there are Democrat (red) ''and'' Republican (blue) voters in all states. Someone fancy a crack at this? If I had the foggiest how to do it I would do it myself. ] 17:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
: That would certainly add to the information about the outcome which, as you note, was well split everywhere. In the absence of such a map, however, I would favour retaining the old one. A part of modern Wales is the fact that that is gets progressively more 'Welsh' the further one goes west. This was reflected in the result. ] 17:34, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
::I added a map from the referendum article that gives the level of ''Yes'' vote by shading, the referendum article has a ''Yes'' and ''No'' map by shading, but I think only one is really required, they show the same thing ''in negative'' as it were. ] 18:30, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

== Welsh civic society ==

It is important to note that the campaign to secure a 'yes' vote in the 1997 referendum was won by cross-party support (except the Conservatives) AND by the mobilisation of what is best described as Welsh civic society. Without the support of the Trade Unions, the Church and others it is unlikely that Wales would have voted yes. I am therefore including this observation in the article. Am happy to discuss that edit on this page. ] 20:40, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

:It's a good rephrasing. It was poorly worded before, I had assumed it was support for the parliamentary Bill that PC and the LDs were giving. Doesn't this sort of information properly belong in the ] article? ] 02:39, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

:: I think it should be in both. I'll have a look at the ] article and see if I can incorporate a new section along these lines. ] 07:15, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

:::We could have a short section here about the referendum and the campaign, and include a link to the ''main'' article on the referendum. ] 10:27, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

:::: I agree. The wording on it in this section, at one sentence, does well. That can be expanded upon in the referendum article. ] 10:42, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

==Gender Statistics==
Even if there is a press citation, wouldn't the information at ] (40 women/35 men) negate the assertion about a majority of female members? ] 02:39, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

:What do you mean by ''negate the assertion about the majority of female members''? The Basque Parliament article doesn't say when this legislature was elected. Could it have been after the by election in Wales? This article doesn't claim to be the only one, just the first. It's also cited from a reliable source. If the Basque Parliament did indeed elect a majority female legislature before the Welsh Assembly (a distinct possibility, when has the UK press ever let mere ''facts'' get in the way of a good story?) then we should include it here as well. We should say something like ''claims were made'' that it was the first, but also that a Basque Parliament elected a majority female legislature earlier. If both claims are includeed and cited then we cover all the bases as it were. I see that the claims on the Basque Parliament page are not verified, though this does not mean that I dispute their veracity. ] 20:30, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

== Constituency boundary changes ==

I am wondering when constituency boundary changes will come into effect for Assembly elections. Before or after they come into effect for Westminster elections? ] 12:11, 2 November 2006 (UTC).
:Before. They will be in effect at the next NAW election. ] ] ] 18:23, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


== Orders-In-Council and Assembly Measures ==
The Orders-In-Council are the only peices of legislation that will be approved by both houses of parliament, the Assembly and the Secretary of state for Wales. "although Assembly laws will be subject to the veto of the UK ], ] or ]" has been changed to "although Assembly ] laws will be subject to the veto of the UK ], ] or ].
" so that people will know what laws will be passed by both Parliament and the Assembly and whats passed by the Assembly alone. The Assembly Measures are passed by the Welsh assembly only, and only needs parliaments approval if they are seeking to legislate on a "matter" that the Assembly has no power over, someone needs to read the act properly. ] 21:24, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

::I shall correct what I said above but with the only exception, Welsh law can be vetoed by Parliament, but those laws are Orders-In-Council requests as I had called them. In effect if the Orders are not approved by Parliament they have indirectly vetoed the creation of an Assembly Measure. ] 17:19, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

== Suggestion to alter powers and status section ==
Once the GOWA 2006 is in force, Wales will have a totally different type of Assembly from the 1999-2007 Assembly. It's important to ensure that worldwide, people know the changes and the difference in the GOWA 1998 and the GOWA 2006. ] 17:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

== 2003 election results ==
The summary table for the 2003 election results in this article don't match those in ], the latter being (I think) the correct figures. Can anyone double check? ] 11:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

==Bit of a re-write==
After tinkering a bit, i decided to do a bit of a re-write, starting with the opening paragraph. What does everybody think so far? I'm using as a mode the article about the ], which is really very well written and structured. I think with a bit of effort we could get this artile up to a similar standard. ] 18:18, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

== Devolved areas ==

So what ARE the devolved areas of legislation?! ] 14:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

:: Everything as specified in that section of the wiki article, just it's town and country planning not county. The evidence for that has been added to the article. Town planning and Country-side planning, there is no such thing as a "countyside" Mr Stlemur. ] 12:48, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

== Appropriate external Iinks for NAW wikipedia article ==

I have removed the links to around 5 Assembly Member blogs/websites. There is insufficient room to list all AM websites and, in any case, each AM has a Misplaced Pages article with a link to their personal blogs. --] 10:16, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

== Privilege ==

Are statements in the chamber of the NAW protected by Parliamentary Privilege like the Houses of Parliament? ] 14:46, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
:I assume so, best look at the GOWA 2006: ] (]) 01:36, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

== Do we really need the special infobox? ==

In light of the existence of ], is the special box really necessary? The Legislature infobox is standard across all other legislative chambers (including ] and its houses, as well as the legislatures of various national subdivisions, e.g. ]), has greater flexibility (should the structure of the Parliament change significantly), and otherwise renders the ] redundant.

So you know what it would look like, here's the Legislature infobox for the Scottish Parliament:

{{Infobox Legislature
| background_color = #00008B
| text_color = white
| name = National Assembly for Wales
| native_name = ''Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru''
| legislature = ]
| coa_pic = NonFreeImageRemoved.svg
| coa_res =
| coa-pic =
| coa-res =
| house_type = Unicameral
| leader1_type = ]
| leader1 = ] AM
| party1 = ]
| election1 = 12 May 1999
| leader2_type = ]
| leader2 = ] AM
| party2 = ]
| election2 = 2007
| leader3_type = ]
| leader3 = ] AM
| party3 = ]
| election3 = 19 July 2007
| leader4_type = ]
| leader4 = ]
| election4 = February 2007
| members = 60
| structure1 = Senedd National Assembly for Wales.jpg
| structure1_res = 200px
| political_groups1 = {{Collapsible list |title=] |]&nbsp;(26) |]&nbsp;(15) |]&nbsp;(12) |]&nbsp;(6) |]&nbsp;(1)}}
| committees1 = {{Collapsible list |title=] |Audit |Business |Equality of Opportunity |Europe and External Affairs|Finance |Petitions |Standards and Conduct |Subordinate Legislation |Scrutiny of the First Minister |Communities and Culture |Enterprise and Learning |Health, Wellbeing and Local Government |Sustainability |LCO Legislative }}
| voting_system1 =
| voting_system2 =
| last_election1 = ]
| session_room = Debating Chamber.jpg
| session_res =
| meeting_place = ], ]
| website =
| footnotes =
}}

Thanks for considering! ] (]) 20:50, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

== Welsh Labour ==

I have made a change to a political grouping within the new, improved, infobox. I changed ] to ]. It is noted on the Welsh Labour page that "Welsh Labour is formally part of the ] - it is not separately registered<ref>http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/regulatory-issues/regpoliticalparties.cfm?frmGB=1&frmPartyID=6&frmType=partydetail</ref> with the Electoral Commission under the terms of the ]." Consequently, electors voted for a candidate for the Labour Party and not Welsh Labour or the Welsh Labour Party. Yours, ] (]) 11:41, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

A change has been made to the Party table in the Elections section - from Labour Party (UK) to Welsh Labour. Each of the Labour AMs is a member of the ]. Each stood in their constituency representing the ]. Each was elected as the ] Assembly Member for their constituency. And most will be standing again in their constituency next month for election to the National Assembly as the ] candidate. Consequently, unless and until the Labour candidates stand as ] representitives, their political party should be noted as ]. I have reverted the change. ] (]) 08:50, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

:The nature of devolution, is such that Welsh Labour has seperate policies, and a seperate political identity from UK Labour. It is slightly misleading, in this context, to put them down as the UK party given the differences in policies and approach between Welsh Labour and UK Labour. In articles dealing with the national Aseembly and National Assembly elections it makes more sense to link them to the Welsh Labour page, then the UK Labour page. The Welsh Labour page also explains the position of the Welsh Labour party in the wider UK context.--] (]) 14:09, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
::It does not make more sense in articles dealing with the National Assembly and National Assembly elections to link to ]. The Welsh Labour group may be trying to distance themselves from the party they were elected to represent, but that does not make them a political party. Please provide a link, for example, to allow me or anyone else here, to join. AFAICT, Welsh Labour is a splinter group of the ]. Welsh Labour have no MPs or AMs, nor will they have any candidates running in the 2011 Assembly election. I would be delighted if they did run as a separate party. But they don't. If you want to add that a Labour politician is a member of Welsh Labour, go ahead – it is notable and interesting. But it is the Labour Party that will appear on ballot papers, and that is what should appear on their related articles. ] (]) 15:02, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

==Suggestions for updating==
The powers explanation needs updating. There is reference to schedule 7 but it still mentions LCOs and Measures which are no longer relevant. Perhaps also the devolved area list could go higher up in the Powers and Status section as there is a discussion of tax powers etc before we even know broadly what the devolved areas are.

I also think that this article can be a bit misleading as it says in the second paragraph at the top tht that after the 2011 referendum Parliament no longer needs to be consulted. It is correct that Parliament doesn't need to be consuled in the 20 devolved areas but, even pre-May 2011, Parliament never needed to be consulted where powers were devolved. It only needed needed to be consulted for new powers instered by LCOs. There's a similar error at the end of the Powers and Status paragraph. Seeing as there is so much confusion about NAfW powers it would be great if we could get a really comprehensive page for people to refer to. I am willing to make the small chnges I have suggested unless anyone has any objections? ] (]) 13:26, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

== How bilingual is the assembly in practice? ==

I'm curious about this. As far as I understand, the Welsh language is put on equal footing with English in many respects; and is used at some ceremonial instances. However, I do not understand whether English is the only practically used working language, with a little Welsh as a kind of adornment, or the rôles of the languages are on a more equal footing. Concretely:
#Is Welsh actually also ''allowed'' as an alternative to English in the ordinary Assembly discussions? I don't mean adding a quotation or two in Welsh, but keeping entire talks, or answering questions to ministers, or whatever, in Welsh.
#If so, is Welsh used ''in practice'' in this manner by some members?
#If so, is there any statistics of the proportion of English versus Welsh in the Assembly parleys?
I suspect that other readers than I also would be interested in such data. If there is some reliable source providing answers, I think that these should be added to the article, e.g., under a heading named something like '''The Assembly working mode'''. (This section also could cover some other information, like how many days a year the Assembly meets ''in plenum'', and what kinds of permanent or temporary committees are formed by the members.) ] (]) 19:47, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
:This question seems more suited to one of the helpdesks, than an article talk page. Still, here is a link to , so you can watch Assembly sessions yourself to answer your question. Cheers, ] (]) 19:54, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

== Ieuan Wyn Jones ==

Changes to the Ieuan Wyn Jones' position in the Assembly are a bit previous. According to the BBC, he He has not done so yet. According to Betsan Powys The recent change has been reverted. ] (]) 15:23, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

:When I made the edit, the BBC article read "...with immediate effect" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22990696 obviously there seems to be some contradiction between the BBC article and what Betsan has heard. However the National Assembly webiste no longer lists Ieuan Wyn Jones as a member http://www.senedd.assemblywales.org/mgMemberIndex.aspx?FN=PARTY&VW=LIST&PIC=0 and http://www.assemblywales.org/memhome/member-search-results.htm?constituency=40 . So I think he has stood down and maybe Betsan's information is out of date? --] (]) 21:53, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
::The situation does seem a little confused. However, if the National Assembly no longer consider him a member, then I guess that's that. I'll reinstate the changes now. If anyone finds more recent evidence showing he remains an AM, please share it here. ] (]) 15:24, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

== Nature of legistlature, "West German Model" ==

Is there any scolarly discourse on the nature of the Assembly. Very much conceived as a "(West) German" and not a "Westminster" Model legislature.

Don't think it is so distinctive to be "sui generis" really but still it lacks an important feature of the West German model- the constructive vote of no confidence, (as the Alun Michael to Rhodri Morgan transistion showed). Otherwise though has lots of West German elements, the electoral system, emphasis on committees, consensual style. But there must be some scholarly analysis by now? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 23:00, 26 September 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Wales Act 2014 ==

The ] is now law - this article will need some considerable updating as a result. ] (]) 18:19, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

== Dafydd Elis-Thomas ==

Dafydd El is noted in the Infobox as a member of the Government. Although says 'that he will be supporting the Welsh Government', it also says 'He sits as an independent AM'. That doesn't sound to me that he is a member of the Government. Nor does it sound as if he will be providing much opposition, so he doesn't belong there either. I propose he be put in a section by himself, 'Other: Independent' perhaps. Thoughts? ] (]) 16:01, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

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== Proposed name change ==
The formal legislation on same has now been published - appears that Senedd would be official in both Welsh and English, but that referral to the body as the Welsh Parliament will also permitted - https://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/17426417.plans-to-lower-voting-age-in-welsh-elections-to-16-and-change-assemblys-name-officially-unveiled/ ] (]) 14:18, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

:The name change has formally come into effect - it will be referred to as the Welsh Parliament in English and the Senedd Cymru in Welsh. This page has been titled Senedd Cymru with a clarifier about Welsh Parliament in the first line. It should probably be Welsh Parliament with a clarifier about Senedd in the first line, as this is the English language page (yes - I'm aware that Senedd is also acceptable in English).<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 05:33, 6 May 2020 (UTC)</small>

::This is wrong - both Senedd Cymru and Welsh Parliament are the formal legal names in *both* languages, not one for each language. Also, it will be referred to as "Senedd", this has been confirmed by both the Government and the Senedd. ] (]) 09:48, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
:::You may well be right. According to the BBC , the name is '''Senedd Cymru - the Welsh Parliament''' - all of it. That seems bonkers, but if it's right we should go with it. ] (]) 10:43, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
::::The legal name is both, this is the only option as it's UK legislation being amended, and not Welsh legislation, so there's no way of having a Welsh version of the (Government of Wales 2006) Act. Technically the legislation says "There is to be a parliament for Wales to be known as Senedd Cymru or the Welsh Parliament (referred to in this Act as "the Senedd"). Senedd is what will be universally used though. The slight quirk is that Senedd Cymru is used in the English and Welsh names for, eg, Acts (of Senedd Cymru). And Senedd is used in the English and Welsh name of several bodies/positions: Members (of the Senedd), (Senedd) Commission, Clerk (of the Senedd), etc. I'd be tempted to call the page '''Senedd''' as that is what it will be known as... ] (]) 10:53, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

== Diagram ==

Hi,

The diagram & caption at the top of the page contradict the breakdown below it, it shows two UKIP seats instead of one and an Independent.
Not sure how to fix but just wanted to point this out

] (]) 08:58, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

== Requested move 6 May 2020 ==

{{requested move/dated|Senedd}}

] → {{no redirect|Senedd}} – ]; I reverted ]'s redirection of the {{la|Senedd}} disambiguation for further discussion. The question is basically: is the parliament the primary topic – and thus should be at ] with a hatnote for ] per ] – or is there ], and should the page at Senedd be a disambiguation page? My ''own'' thoughts are that the parliament is indeed the primary topic — but I'm not fully convinced yet — and, for the reasons I made at ], "Senedd" is already the common name in ''English'' sources, so in the context of a move discussion, I would ''support'' a move to Senedd. ''']''' (]) 11:49, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
:I think we have to wait and see what the ] is, that is whether ] refer to it as ''Senedd Cymru'' or ''Senedd'' (both are given by the body as acceptable names by the NAfW naming document) or even ''Welsh Parliament''. I've been working over the last few days on a detailed move proposal for all Senedd articles with a dozen options for editors to choose from in the future when ] exist so a common name in English might be clearer. In the mean time, I'm happy with this article being at ]. I also won't be quibbling over your unrelated revert.
:P.S. Although you somehow relate the two, my change of a dab page to a redirect (which you reverted) doesn't relate, in any strict way, to your move proposal above. It is common for short names to redirect to longer (more precise or official) names with a dab hatnote at the longer name (indeed, it's a common compromise; see ]). Do you also object to that? Your comment, "if it's the primary topic – and I believe it is, FWIW – then the article for the Senedd should be here, not at Senedd Cymru" fundamentally misunderstands that one article is often the primary topic for multiple terms.
:] (]) 11:58, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
As a interim measure we could use both names i.e. '''Senedd Cymru - the Welsh Parliament''' as the page title until a common name emerges in popular usage. Using the current monolingual name ''Senedd Cymru'' as the page title seems to go against the bilingual nature of the institution. ] (]) 12:06, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
::I '''weakly support''' this, if others support my idea to wait, say, two months and go with what news articles and other ] tend to call it then (my ] suspects "Senedd"). ] (]) 12:17, 6 May 2020 (UTC)


== Plaid Cymru ==
:I '''Strongly Support''' this change to '''Senedd'''. Senedd is the commonly used name as set out by the Senedd Commission, and as used by the Welsh Government. It is also consistent with, eg, Members of the Senedd, Senedd Elections, Senedd Commission, etc. ] (]) 13:55, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
Maybe change Plaid Cymru to being in co operation rather than opposition ] (]) 00:33, 22 July 2023 (UTC)


:If you're referring to the infobox it used to be like that for a bit until it was removed in by @]. It was originally inserted in by an IP. There is no consensus for or against such description, however it lasted more than a year while the removal is recent. ''']]''' 00:47, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
:I '''Strongly Support''' a change to '''Senedd''' with a redirect from welsh assembly and welsh parliment as AMs are now MS (member of senedd). I would '''Support''' the name being bilingual and '''Strongly oppose''' it remaining as National Assembly for Wales (as this is no longer its name) <ref>https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/senedd-parliament-wales-welsh-assembly-18205053</ref> ] (]) 16:18, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
::Boldly re-added it back. ''']]''' 20:15, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


== Senedd and Welsh Parliament – taking stock ==
*'''Administrator's note''' This article has been restored to the location status quo ante to avoid confusion about outcomes. ] (]) 16:02, 6 May 2020 (UTC)


I'm aware that the article title has been discussed several times (the previous discussions can be found in the ). One thing which struck me when reading them is that almost everyone involved seemed to agree that 'Senedd' was the ], but very little evidence was provided to back this up. It seemed sensible to take a closer look, particularly now some time has passed:
:*'''Strong support''' for immediate change. I hesitated to comment previously in this discussion, because of uncertainty over whether Senedd or Senedd Cymru was more correct - but, clearly, "National Assembly for Wales" is now simply wrong, unjustified, and needs to be changed as quickly as possible.. The name has changed. I favour '''Senedd''' as the ]. ] (]) 16:36, 6 May 2020 (UTC) .... but, for the time being I would support a move to ''']''' as being an improvement that recognises the new official name. ] (]) 19:35, 6 May 2020 (UTC)


'''English-language Welsh media'''
:*'''Strongly support''' a move to '''Senedd'''. The lead could be something like: “The '''Welsh Parliament''' ({{lang-cy|Senedd Cymru}}), commonly referred to as the '''Senedd''', is the devolved...” <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 17:21, 6 May 2020 (UTC)</small>
*Wales Online –
*North Wales Live (Daily Post) –


'''UK Media'''
:*'''Strongly support''' Its oblivious this happened today, as they officially renamed the region's devolved legislature into the Senedd Cymru (or Welsh Parliament), but I have no clue, why this needed to be reverted back to the old name of the devolved legislative system for Wales? Plus, the ] post two articles, of supporting this as well.<ref>{{Cite news|last=|first=|date=6 May 2020|title=Why are Welsh Assembly Members changing their name?|work=]|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-politics-52442634|url-status=live|access-date=6 May 2020}}</ref><ref>{{Cite news|last=|first=|date=6 May 2020|title=Welsh assembly renamed Senedd Cymru/Welsh Parliament|work=]|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-politics-52544137|url-status=live|access-date=6 May 2020}}</ref> ] (]) 18:20, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
*BBC News –
:I realise I haven't clearly given my position (partly as this proposal lacked precision on exactly what will go where and I was waiting to see if an admin reverted back to NAfW).
*Sky –
:*I think ] should redirect here (] for that term), but accept others disagree.
*ITV –
:*I think leaving this at ] causes too much ].
*The Guardian – , tends to use 'Welsh parliament' with uncapitalised 'p'
:*I support us following ] on non-clearcut (cf. papal) name changes by moving it to ] as an interim measure as part of a two-month move moratorium till ] are available.
*The Times – paywalled, but to use ?
:*If and only if that proposal fails, I support it being moved to ] (probably more likely to be used as its name in English-language sources than ] and definitely more likely than where it was originally moved, ], a title only used in Welsh).
*The Telegraph –
:] (]) 18:51, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
* The i –
*The Mirror –


'''International English-language'''
:*'''Strongly support''', it's called the Senedd now so it would only make sense to change it.] (])
*RTÉ – and
:*'''Move to ]''' until a ] emerges, per Cordyceps-Zombie and Llew Mawr. See ] for another article title using this style. ] (]) 19:01, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
*Irish Times – and
:*'''Oppose''' move to ] at the moment, FWIW, this is way too soon. If it's new official bilingual name is ] then I'd support a move to this name (or similar) until we have clear evidence of its ]. We simply don't have sufficient evidence at the moment that it will be widely known as the Senedd (which in my mind still refers to the building). 'Senedd' after all is the Welsh word for parliament, hence the new official Welsh language name 'Senedd Cymru'. Look at the ] article, which hasn't been changed to its new official name yet - though I'm not advocating a review period of years for Senedd Cymru, a few weeks or months will suffice :) ] (]) 19:10, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
*Al Jazeera –
*The New Yorker –
*Washington Post –
*Times of India –
*National Post (Canada) –


'''How the body refers to itself'''
:*'''Support''', the change to 'Senedd Cyumru - Welsh Parliament' or Elshad's proposal. The official website's news release states "the National Assembly for Wales officially becomes Senedd Cymru and Welsh Parliament, commonly known as the Senedd." <ref>https://senedd.wales/en/newhome/pages/newsitem.aspx?itemid=2097</ref>. While I appreciate WIKI uses the most commonly used name and this will take time to develop as an interim measure I think it's best to follow either the wording in the legislation or that used on the official website until a point in time has been reached that a common name has developed. ] (]) 19:59, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
*Website –
*Twitter –


I won't pretend the above is comprehensive, but there's a broad pattern of Welsh media using 'Senedd' exclusively, other British media using either 'Senedd' or both, and the instutution and international media using both. ] (]) 23:12, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
:*'''Move to ]''' - it has two co-official names, and makes sense to use the English rather than the Welsh one. <span style="font-family:Comic Sans">] <sup>(], ]) </sup></span> 20:19, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
:*'''Move to ]''' per ]. ] (]) 20:37, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
:*:] is about using "the version of the name which is most common in the English language", rather than using an English-language name whenever that's an option. We don't yet know which name will be the most commonly used in English. ] (]) 05:56, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
::::For what it's worth, English-language sources have been calling it "the Senedd" since way before the renaming bill went through the Senedd. Although that's mostly due to ] (c.f. ], ], ]), it shows that most people are comfortable with calling it as such, and, in my opinion, the Senedd's naming advice that it's "commonly known as the Senedd" is ''descriptive'' of common parlance rather than ''prescriptive''. As you've mentioned, USEENGLISH only applies ''when the English term is the most common one used in English''; after all, nobody calls the third-largest party in the Senedd ], nor does anyone talk about the recent Irish election being a surprise victory for ] against the ] and ]. ''']''' (]) 06:31, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
:*'''Move to ]''' per ]. --] (]) 22:44, 6 May 2020 (UTC)


:Not that this is a move discussion, but if I was thinking totally pragmatically I might lean toward 'Welsh Parliament'. The fact Welsh and UK sources seem comfortable using 'Senedd', either alone or alongside 'Welsh Parliament', suggests that British Misplaced Pages readers will understand the title; however, as international publications tend to use 'Welsh Parliament' or both names the English name might be more understandable for all readers. It depends how you look at it really, both names have their merits. ] (]) 23:20, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
*I support the interim move to use the full bilingual name i.e. Senedd Cymru - Welsh Parliament. This has been used for the "Amgueddfa Cymru – National Museum Wales" page. It seems the least controversial and most accurate option for now. ] (]) 21:30, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
::Hmn, the issue is quite complex. While I am ] at some names, this one is a bit tricky and not considered it. The most ] is preferred than the most understood/basic one (to all readers). We have short descriptions, redirects and leads to help describe it. All of those sources, bar one, use Senedd so unless there is a clear majority of sources using only Welsh Parliament, the current situation seems fine IMO. But ofc, if new evidence shows otherwise, would still consider it.
*<s>'''Move to ]''', as this is the ''english language'' Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 01:30, 7 May 2020 (UTC)</s>
::Although seen some cite ] as a reason we shouldn't use Welsh names, so that may be an argument to use.
:* I '''strongly supoort''' a '''move to ]'''. I think the approach used for ] and ] is something we should emulate. There, the page titles are ]/] as appropriate, and the infoboxes have '''Dáil Éireann/Seanad Éireann''' at the top, with '''Assembly of Ireland/Senate of Ireland''' underneath. In the body text, '''Dáil/Seanad''' is used. So I would suggest '''Senedd Cymru''' as the page title, '''Senedd Cymru''' with '''Welsh Parliament''' underneath in the infobox and '''Senedd''' being used as the general term in the body text of the article. ] (]) 03:16, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
::Haven't checked all those sources, so taking at your word, but they do mostly use Senedd, so clearly more common. Although there may be more sources to be found that could tilt it to Welsh Parliament. Plus the parliament itself uses three names, which is a mess of their making, using Welsh Parliament for its logo, Senedd Cymru in law, and Senedd for everything else, is quite inconsistent on their part. So choosing the most common seems simplest for this complex name.
*'''Oppose''' Too soon. ] (]) 03:52, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
::When doing a quick Google to analyse generic use, but yes, ], shows clear preference for Senedd, and Google News articles vs . But "Senedd" can also refer to the building, but on the other hand not sure if Google also includes "Welsh parliament" with a lower-case "p", which can be classed as a descriptor like "Israeli parliament" for the ] or "Irish parliament" for the ] / ].
* '''Support''' per ]. Senedd was in use long before the recent name change, in the established British tradition of naming institutions after places. Too soon does not apply, as it is not a new name. Neither is there a need to wait for a new commonname to establish itself, as this institution was established in the previous century. Using "the Senedd" is established enough that the BBC article uses "the Senedd" throughout when not referring to the official name. A bilingual formal name is an unnecessary stopgap when there is a longstanding common name. As for the language, Senedd is often used in English, and is less ambiguous than "the Assembly" (or "the Parliament" now perhaps). ] (]) 07:16, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
::So there could be a case, but Senedd seems more popular for now and tbh more neutral, but I'll see if this discussion leads anywhere. ''']]''' 01:39, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
* Move to ''']''' until a ] emerges. It is too early to say what the common name will be, but until then the new formal name, Senedd Cymru – Welsh Parliament, should be used. Note that in , initially the name Welsh Parliament was to be used, after 75% of people in a public consultation backed that name, and it was only rejected because the resulting acronym for Welsh MPs, MWP, resembled the first syllable of the Welsh for "muppet". After a resultant campaign for a purely Welsh name was opposed, the bilingual name was backed by the Welsh Government as a compromise. ] (]) 07:36, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
:I guarantee that had 'Senedd' been around ten or twenty years ago, the most common reference would be to "Welsh Parliament' The fact that 'Senedd' is used at all shows how the word has become much more common and recognisable. I suggest to you - with respect - that what you've found is examples of the newspaper trope of "the second mention". This is when a newspaper uses "Rishi Sunak" in paragraph one, "Prime Minister" in paragraph two, "the Conservative leader" in paragraph 3 and so on. I once saw "the sun" followed by."Earth's huge sky orb". Maybe we're just dealing with the trope of avoiding the same word twice. ] <sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 04:02, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' I don't really have a view on this, as it's probably too early to identify a common name. However, I think it's worth pointing out that ] is not an appropriate guideline to follow here. We have several articles on national legislatures with titles like ] (not "Assembly") and ] (not "Federal Diet") because this is how they are commonly known in English. ] ]] 08:49, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
::If a modern source use Senedd, clearly in reference to the modern body then surely that should count, regardless if they use another name later or as a descriptor. Sunak and Prime Minister are two different subjects. Senedd and Welsh Parliament on Misplaced Pages are the same for now. Unless, if this becomes Welsh Parliament, that Senedd become a page about the name itself. Plus we should also consider "Senedd Cymru" the legally preferred term in laws in English, which was actually the proposed term a few years ago, unless Welsh names aren't allowed on Misplaced Pages at all. ''']]''' 07:58, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
*:'''Comment on comment''': I agree. Except ] is exactly the policy to follow and was the one followed at ], ] being the title suggested by ]:]): loanwords into English are fine if used by the most ] and ''Senedd'' is English per general lingustics and ](in fact, it is imprecise and/or non-NPOV in Welsh). ] (]) 09:46, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
::I don't think it's entirely 'the second mention'. Some sources do seem to switch between names for variety, but several of the articles above only name the body once but still use both for clarity, e.g. '...May’s election for the Senedd Cymru, the Welsh Parliament' from Al Jazeera.
***Perhaps I worded the above poorly, but my point was that several editors are claiming that ] means that "Welsh Parliament" has to be used, which is not the case. ] ]] 09:56, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
::I've not looked too widely at non-news sources, but again it varies. Britannica hasn't been updated and still uses '', gov.uk primarily uses 'Welsh Parliament' but also '', and the Welsh Government mostly stick to but does use 'Parliament' for variety. ] (]) 09:20, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
****<s>Note however, that ''within'' the UK, we're using ] & ] names. ] (]) 22:41, 7 May 2020 (UTC)</s>
*****Pesumably because they are the common names used in English. This doesn't mean that Senedd won't be the commonly-used name for this legislature. ] ]] 13:30, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
{{reflist-talk}}
*'''Support''' as the current common name. At this point it's comfortably the name most used in RS coverage. An example is the BBC which introduces the longform bilingual name then uses {{tq|Senedd}} for the rest of the article. Other sources refer to it as Senedd including and . If the common name changes in the future the article can be moved again. ] (]) 10:47, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' bilingual article name. Until this week officially The Senedd was the name of the building. It will take a very long time for an established name to be bedded down with the public. ] (]) 11:16, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' bilingual article name, i.e. Senedd-Welsh Parliament as an interim title now that "National Assembly" is obsolete - if consensus then supports the sole use of Senedd, that can then be formally adopted. ] (]) 11:25, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' full bilingual name as an interim measure until a settled common usage becomes apparent. ] (]) 13:14, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Either ''Senedd'' or ''Senedd Cymru''. The former long being the common name despite technically relating to the building. The official renaming also helps and the meaning isn't precisely Parliament although it is OK as a translation -----] <sup>]</sup> 16:23, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''' The name ''Senedd'' has been in use for a long time prior to the official renaming, while ''Welsh Parliament'' has not. Slight preference of ''Senedd Cymru'' over 'Senedd, to differentiate it with ]. ] (]/]) 16:38, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Either ''Senedd'' or ''Senedd Cymru'' the latter being my first preference for disambig reasons with the building itself. --] ] ] 18:53, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
How long has Senedd been the commonly used name in English RSSs? If it has only recently occured due to the passage of the bill, should we not wait a little longer, say ], to make sure it isn't a fad? ] (]) 11:03, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
:It has been in use for years and if you check above you will find BBC and other references. It has been common to use the name of the Building for the Assembly -----] <sup>]</sup> 12:43, 8 May 2020 (UTC)


== English pronunciation and respell ==
:<s>Indeed, there seems to be a ''huge'' panic to adopt ''Senedd Cymru'' across English Misplaced Pages. Ya'll gotta calm down & (for now, at least) compromise & use both ''Senedd Cymru'' & ''Welsh Parliament''. ] (]) 20:20, 8 May 2020 (UTC)</s>
::There is no panic GoodDay, just a normal process to adopt the new name. You should know by now that asking other editors to calm down is considered provocative and also a little foolish. You have a view, fine argue for it, but leave the provocative comments out of things please. We don't want to go back please. -----] <sup>]</sup> 20:29, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
:::<s>The 'new' name hasn't been decided 'yet'. Be patient & wait until it is decided. ] (]) 20:44, 8 May 2020 (UTC)</s>
*'''Oppose''' This looks like it will go through as a Support, however this Misplaced Pages is in the English language therefore I feel the article should be "]". The ] should therefore be "The '''Welsh Parliament''' ({{lang-cy|Senedd Cymru}}) is the democratically elected...." My opinion comes partly from the official website itself, which says....
<blockquote>"The Senedd is not just a building for Members, it is your building. It is the main public building of the Welsh Parliament, the main centre for democracy and devolution in Wales." from https://senedd.wales/en/visiting/senedd/Pages/senedd.aspx </blockquote>
<span style="font-family: bookman old style">]]</span> 08:51, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
::I can't see 'Welsh Parliament' or even 'Parliament' ending up in common usage- too much confusion with Westminster. Senedd on the other hand is already in use and has been for some time -----] <sup>]</sup> 08:59, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
:::People in Wales use ] in relation to the building, not the legislature. The commonly used name is "the Assembly". If the name change goes through (as I think it will), the name of the article should at least be looked again at in 2021, we can then see whether media outlets and the general public etc. will use Senedd Cymru or Welsh Parliament. My opinion: 'Welsh Parliament' will be used widely, not Senedd Cymru. <span style="font-family: bookman old style">]]</span> 09:37, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
::::It would be perfectly reasonable to open the article with "The '''Welsh Parliament''' etc." even if the article title is "Senedd". COMMONNAME applies to article titles, but formal names are often used at the start of articles. That would also reflect what does. ] (]) 12:10, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
*<s>'''COMMENT''' - Choose whatever 'name' yas wish for the article. Just ''please'', can we have '''Welsh Parliament''' ''somewhere'' in the intro and/or infobox, for us <u>english-only readers</u>? An example of this consideration for <u>english-only readers</u>, is at the ] intro. ] (]) 14:45, 9 May 2020 (UTC)</s>


Hi, an attempted to add a {{tl|respell}}, however for a Welsh pronunciation which isn't to be used by the template, as well as the respell looking a bit off IMO "SEN-edh".
:::::The final paragraph of that BBC article makes the point well "While the legislature's new name is officially Senedd Cymru/Welsh Parliament it's likely that, at least within Wales, it will be referred to as the Senedd, '''a name that's already in use in both languages''' and which will differentiate it from Westminster" My bold -----] <sup>]</sup> 19:50, 9 May 2020 (UTC)


However, uses the same IPA for English, therefore leading to theoretically {{tqb|{{IPAc-en|ˈ|s|ɛ|n|ɛ|ð}} {{respell|SEN|eth|}}}}, if I re-spelled it correctly. But considering how copy-and-pasted the pronunciation seems, is this correct? As I think having a re-spell would be great for readers, although understand opposition arguing the audio file is enough, and how we should now refrain from un-needed English pronunciations. ''']]''' 08:45, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' move to Senedd Cymru ] (]) 08:11, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
:Would adding {{xt|as in "whether"}} after {{xt|{{respell|SEN|eth|}}}} be allowed? ] (]) 15:43, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' I '''support''' moving this article to Senedd over Parliament, and I hope this happens. However we are currently in a situation where the constituencies have all been moved to Llanfoo (Senedd constituency) while this article remains at National Assembly. I worry that a lack of consistency and eagerness to edit has resulted in confusion. ] <sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 09:01, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
::@], nothing at ] mentions that, and I rarely see it, so not sure. Although it could be pushed into a footnote if needed?
*'''Strongly support''' using '''Senedd {{strikethrough|Cymru}}''', {{strikethrough|convention in these articles is to have the country name included, see ].}} I also fully agree with {{User|Ghmyrtle}} - National Assembly for Wales is a ludicrously incorrect article to use right now. Clearly the commonly used name in the press and in the business of the Parliament itself is 'Senedd' (for example its English language webpage is ). Let's go with that so we have a correct and commonly used article name, and then we can have a further discussion in the months ahead if users find that Welsh Parliament instead emerges as a more common name in future. I'd be happy to revisit, but let's get this right now, because the current settlement is not acceptable to anyone. ] (]) 11:46, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
::The tooltip for the IPA-c gives {{tq|'e' in 'dress'}} and {{tq|'th' in 'this'}} by default. ''']]''' 16:00, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
**Amending my comments following the below input by {{User|Capewearer}}, it appears better form would be to follow the example of ] and go with the raw name of the legislature itself. Clearly Welsh Parliament is a clarifier because as other have noted, there are lots of Parliaments, but Senedd is unique enough itself to be the common name as many have noted is used in press coverage. ] (]) 14:06, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
:::@], what about this?
*'''Comment''' - Sincerely hope we will be mentioning '''Welsh Parliament''' in either the intro or the infobox, for us <u>english-only readers</u>. Not everyone is gonna know what ''Senedd Cymru'' means, even though it's currently being (since May 6) hastily put in several related articles. ] (]) 13:36, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
:::{{tqb|{{IPAc-en|ˈ|s|ɛ|n|ɛ|ð}} {{respell|SEN|{{tooltip|eth|'eth' as in 'whether'}}}}}}
::'''Reply to GoodDay''' - Most articles are using both names i.e. "Senedd Cymru - Welsh Parliament" rather than a monolingual name as there does not appear to be a consensus as to what name to use. I don't think this is confusing at all as the words "Welsh Parliament" are there to aid people who don't understand what the term "Senedd Cymru" mean. On this article, in the infobox, the Welsh name is used first followed by the English name and in the lead paragraph, the English name used first followed by the Welsh. We often use "native" names before English language equivalents if they are in common usage in English language media. Examples include using the Hindi language name ] instead of House of the People for the lower house of the parliament of India, where Hindi and English are the official languages or for a Welsh example, ] instead of the English language name Party of Wales. ] (]) 13:49, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
:::Hopefully this doesn't cause some hidden formatting error. Appears to work fine? ''']]''' 13:06, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
:::Agreed. ] in Ireland, ] in Lithuania, and ] in Norway are similar examples. ] (]) 13:59, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
::::{{re|DankJae}} Too subtle, I think; a reader who doesn't spot the tooltip for "ð" isn't going to see the one for "''eth''" either. I've looked into this a bit more now, and <code><nowiki>{{respell|SEN|edh}}</nowiki></code> does appear to be the standard way to do it, because that displays as {{respell|SEN|edh}}, which links to ] where "dh" is explained. ] (]) 05:59, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
::'''Comment''' - Sorry, I think I didn't make my position as clearly as I had hoped in the above post. I think the article name should currently be bilingual '''"Senedd Cymru - Welsh Parliament"''' until a consensus can be reached or a common name emerges in the media. The examples I quoted above were to illustrate that the English language name should not always take precedence simply because this is the English language Misplaced Pages. I also believe that a bilingual name formula, Senedd Cymru - Welsh Parliament, should be used in the body of articles, again until a widely reported common name emerges. Where I have made edits to remove the former name, i have used the bilingual name as the replacement. As for acts and members of the institution "Members of the Senedd" and "Acts of the Senedd" should be used at this is what they are called on the face of the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Act 2020. ] (]) 14:11, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
:::::ah right, I guess I got confused with ] and used "th" as an approximation, when it is supposed to be respelled "edh". But fine as long as its there now. ''']]''' 18:09, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
:::This institution has been around for a couple of decades. Why do we have to wait for a new name to be established when there are existing ones? ] (]) 14:16, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
::::Because technically it would be Original Research to say something will be called x when the name hasn't been published/consensus formed in sources. Plus I note in the BBC source in 2 sections above, it is noted that Seneed Cymru and Welsh Parliament were to be used in equal standing. Therefore, since I'm answering your Q I might as well do this. '''MOVE TO "Senedd Cymru - Welsh Parliament"''' ] (]) 14:51, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
:::::I haven't mentioned at all what it might be called, I've mentioned what it is called, and has been called for a few years now. ] (]) 15:23, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
:*'''Strongly support''' - The current use of the term assembly is in my view incorrect. ] (]) 16:32, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
:*'''Strongly support''' a move to '''Senedd'''. The lead could be something like: “The '''Welsh Parliament''' ({{lang-cy|Senedd Cymru}}), commonly referred to as the '''Senedd''', is the devolved...” <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ]

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Senedd on television was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 30 June 2020 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Senedd. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

Ty Hywel/Tŷ Hywel

Shouldn't Ty Hywel be spelt as "Tŷ Hywel" with it's correct Welsh spelling? Also for the main Tŷ Hywel page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.108.174.121 (talk) 17:59, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Kudos to above RFC result

Thank goodness Welsh Parliament got a place in the article's intro. Otherwise, a non-Welsh language fellow such as I, would've immediately figured Senedd to have meant Senate of Wales or Welsh Senate. GoodDay (talk) 22:19, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Plaid Cymru

Maybe change Plaid Cymru to being in co operation rather than opposition GothicGolem29 (talk) 00:33, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

If you're referring to the infobox it used to be like that for a bit until it was removed in this June 2023 edit by @Dunadan9. It was originally inserted in March 2022 by an IP. There is no consensus for or against such description, however it lasted more than a year while the removal is recent. DankJae 00:47, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
Boldly re-added it back. DankJae 20:15, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Senedd and Welsh Parliament – taking stock

I'm aware that the article title has been discussed several times (the previous discussions can be found in the first talk page archive). One thing which struck me when reading them is that almost everyone involved seemed to agree that 'Senedd' was the WP:COMMONNAME, but very little evidence was provided to back this up. It seemed sensible to take a closer look, particularly now some time has passed:

English-language Welsh media

  • Wales Online – Senedd
  • North Wales Live (Daily Post) – Senedd

UK Media

International English-language

How the body refers to itself

I won't pretend the above is comprehensive, but there's a broad pattern of Welsh media using 'Senedd' exclusively, other British media using either 'Senedd' or both, and the instutution and international media using both. A.D.Hope (talk) 23:12, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Not that this is a move discussion, but if I was thinking totally pragmatically I might lean toward 'Welsh Parliament'. The fact Welsh and UK sources seem comfortable using 'Senedd', either alone or alongside 'Welsh Parliament', suggests that British Misplaced Pages readers will understand the title; however, as international publications tend to use 'Welsh Parliament' or both names the English name might be more understandable for all readers. It depends how you look at it really, both names have their merits. A.D.Hope (talk) 23:20, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
Hmn, the issue is quite complex. While I am looking at some names, this one is a bit tricky and not considered it. The most common name is preferred than the most understood/basic one (to all readers). We have short descriptions, redirects and leads to help describe it. All of those sources, bar one, use Senedd so unless there is a clear majority of sources using only Welsh Parliament, the current situation seems fine IMO. But ofc, if new evidence shows otherwise, would still consider it.
Although seen some cite WP:ENGLISHTITLE as a reason we shouldn't use Welsh names, so that may be an argument to use.
Haven't checked all those sources, so taking at your word, but they do mostly use Senedd, so clearly more common. Although there may be more sources to be found that could tilt it to Welsh Parliament. Plus the parliament itself uses three names, which is a mess of their making, using Welsh Parliament for its logo, Senedd Cymru in law, and Senedd for everything else, is quite inconsistent on their part. So choosing the most common seems simplest for this complex name.
When doing a quick Google to analyse generic use, but yes, Google should not be used as an argument alone, shows clear preference for Senedd, in Google Trends and Google News articles 197,000 vs 43,000. But "Senedd" can also refer to the building, but on the other hand not sure if Google also includes "Welsh parliament" with a lower-case "p", which can be classed as a descriptor like "Israeli parliament" for the Knesset or "Irish parliament" for the Oireachtas / Dáil Éireann.
So there could be a case, but Senedd seems more popular for now and tbh more neutral, but I'll see if this discussion leads anywhere. DankJae 01:39, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
I guarantee that had 'Senedd' been around ten or twenty years ago, the most common reference would be to "Welsh Parliament' The fact that 'Senedd' is used at all shows how the word has become much more common and recognisable. I suggest to you - with respect - that what you've found is examples of the newspaper trope of "the second mention". This is when a newspaper uses "Rishi Sunak" in paragraph one, "Prime Minister" in paragraph two, "the Conservative leader" in paragraph 3 and so on. I once saw "the sun" followed by."Earth's huge sky orb". Maybe we're just dealing with the trope of avoiding the same word twice. doktorb words 04:02, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
If a modern source use Senedd, clearly in reference to the modern body then surely that should count, regardless if they use another name later or as a descriptor. Sunak and Prime Minister are two different subjects. Senedd and Welsh Parliament on Misplaced Pages are the same for now. Unless, if this becomes Welsh Parliament, that Senedd become a page about the name itself. Plus we should also consider "Senedd Cymru" the legally preferred term in laws in English, which was actually the proposed term a few years ago, unless Welsh names aren't allowed on Misplaced Pages at all. DankJae 07:58, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
I don't think it's entirely 'the second mention'. Some sources do seem to switch between names for variety, but several of the articles above only name the body once but still use both for clarity, e.g. '...May’s election for the Senedd Cymru, the Welsh Parliament' from Al Jazeera.
I've not looked too widely at non-news sources, but again it varies. Britannica hasn't been updated and still uses 'National Assembly', gov.uk primarily uses 'Welsh Parliament' but also 'Senedd Cymru: Welsh Parliament', and the Welsh Government mostly stick to Senedd but does use 'Parliament' for variety. A.D.Hope (talk) 09:20, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

English pronunciation and respell

Hi, an earlier edit attempted to add a {{respell}}, however for a Welsh pronunciation which isn't to be used by the template, as well as the respell looking a bit off IMO "SEN-edh".

However, Collins uses the same IPA for English, therefore leading to theoretically

/ˈsɛnɛð/ SEN-eth

, if I re-spelled it correctly. But considering how copy-and-pasted the pronunciation seems, is this correct? As I think having a re-spell would be great for readers, although understand opposition arguing the audio file is enough, and how we should now refrain from un-needed English pronunciations. DankJae 08:45, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Would adding as in "whether" after SEN-eth be allowed? Ham II (talk) 15:43, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
@Ham II, nothing at MOS:PRON mentions that, and I rarely see it, so not sure. Although it could be pushed into a footnote if needed?
The tooltip for the IPA-c gives 'e' in 'dress' and 'th' in 'this' by default. DankJae 16:00, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
@Ham II, what about this?

/ˈsɛnɛð/ SEN-eth

Hopefully this doesn't cause some hidden formatting error. Appears to work fine? DankJae 13:06, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
@DankJae: Too subtle, I think; a reader who doesn't spot the tooltip for "ð" isn't going to see the one for "eth" either. I've looked into this a bit more now, and {{respell|SEN|edh}} does appear to be the standard way to do it, because that displays as SEN-edh, which links to Help:Pronunciation respelling key where "dh" is explained. Ham II (talk) 05:59, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
ah right, I guess I got confused with Help:IPA/English and used "th" as an approximation, when it is supposed to be respelled "edh". But fine as long as its there now. DankJae 18:09, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
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