| Revision as of 00:28, 24 June 2020 editKonli17 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users4,995 edits →Friendly fire← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 01:12, 28 February 2024 edit undoCewbot (talk | contribs)Bots7,694,772 editsm Maintain {{WPBS}}: 5 WikiProject templates. Keep majority rating "B" in {{WPBS}}. Remove 4 same ratings as {{WPBS}} in {{WikiProject Biography}}, {{WikiProject College football}}, {{WikiProject National Football League}}, {{WikiProject United States}}.Tag: Talk banner shell conversion |
| (29 intermediate revisions by 16 users not shown) |
| Line 2: |
Line 2: |
|
{{Talk header}} |
|
{{Talk header}} |
|
{{ITN talk|24 April|2004}} |
|
{{ITN talk|24 April|2004}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|living=no|listas=Tillman, Pat|1= |
|
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1= |
|
|
{{WikiProject Biography |
|
{{WikiProject Biography|military-work-group=yes|military-priority=Low|sports-work-group=yes|sports-priority=Low}} |
|
⚫ |
{{WikiProject College football|importance=mid}} |
|
|living=no |
|
|
⚫ |
{{WikiProject National Football League|importance=Low}} |
|
|class=B |
|
|
|
{{WikiProject Military history|class=B|B-Class-1=yes|B-Class-2=yes|B-Class-3=yes|B-Class-4=yes|B-Class-5=yes|Biography=yes|US-task-force=yes}} |
|
|military-work-group=yes |
|
|
⚫ |
{{WikiProject United States|importance=Low|AZ=Yes|AZ-importance=High}} |
|
|military-priority=Low |
|
|
|sports-work-group=yes |
|
|
|sports-priority=Low |
|
|
|listas=Tillman, Pat |
|
|
}} |
|
| ⚫ |
{{WikiProject College football|class=B|importance=mid}} |
|
| ⚫ |
{{WikiProject National Football League|class=B|importance=Low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Military history |
|
|
|class=B |
|
|
|B-Class-1=yes |
|
|
|B-Class-2=yes |
|
|
|B-Class-3=yes |
|
|
|B-Class-4=yes |
|
|
|B-Class-5=yes |
|
|
|Biography=yes |
|
|
|US-task-force=yes |
|
|
}} |
|
| ⚫ |
{{WikiProject United States|class=B|importance=Low|AZ=Yes|AZ-importance=High}} |
|
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
{{Online source |
|
{{Online source |
| Line 45: |
Line 28: |
|
{{Archives |search=yes |bot=MiszaBot I |age=3 |units=months }} |
|
{{Archives |search=yes |bot=MiszaBot I |age=3 |units=months }} |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Shouldn't there be some mention of Tillman's conviction and imprisonment for assault, when he was a juvenile? ] (]) 13:04, 3 November 2023 (UTC) |
|
== Synopsis is incorrect == |
|
|
|
|
|
At the very top of the article, it is stated Tillman completed multiple tours before being killed. Later you say he was killed DURING his second tour. One or the other is wrong. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 23:14, 9 December 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|
|
: Well, ref 2 says "Tillman served in several tours of duty, including time in Iraq as part of Operation Iraqi Freedom as well as a stay in Afghanistan to serve in Operation Enduring Freedom." The article could perhaps be clearer either in wording or which references it uses to support the content in that respect. Something interesting for you to sort out if you wish...<ref>{{Cite news|url=http://www.biography.com/articles/Pat-Tillman-197041 |title=Pat Tillman Biography |publisher= 2006 A&E Television Networks}}</ref> --] (]) 23:31, 9 December 2011 (UTC) {{Reflist |local=true}} |
|
|
|
|
|
== Where was he born? == |
|
|
|
|
|
There is an inconsistency in this article, the second paragraph says he was born in San Jose, CA but the sidebar says Fremont, CA. ] (]) 07:42, 23 May 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
Yeah where was he born ] (]) 18:07, 23 January 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
| ⚫ |
== Rank == |
|
|
|
|
|
OK so if was posthumously promoted to corporal from specialist, should the pictures of him alive be labelled "corporal" or "specialist"? The DOD reports cited in the article consistently refer to him as "specialist". --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 18:40, 30 August 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:Does alleviate the concern over any confusion that might take place as to his rank and the photograph? Regards, ] (]) 18:58, 30 August 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::That edit is both simple and elegant; works for me. Regards, ] (]) 19:08, 30 August 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== External links modified == |
|
|
|
|
|
Hello fellow Wikipedians, |
|
|
|
|
|
I have just added archive links to {{plural:1|one external link|1 external links}} on ]. Please take a moment to review . If necessary, add {{tlx|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx|nobots|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes: |
|
|
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150715211808/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wygt6L_3L5Y to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wygt6L_3L5Y |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Prof Michael I. Niman == |
|
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' to let others know. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Who is Prof. Michael I. Niman and why is he quoted in this article? It would make sense for the article to explain why he has authority in this subject. |
|
{{sourcecheck|checked=false}} |
|
|
|
] (]) 11:19, 30 April 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
Cheers.—]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS">]:Online</sub></small> 05:44, 7 January 2016 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Request for comment on description of Tillman's killing == |
|
== Forced Fumbles and Tackles == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The circumstances of Tillman's killing are disputed, with indications towards both manslaughter and accident. The current description of the cause of death as ] gives (in my opinion) too strong an impression of the latter. I believe we ought to find a more neutral way to describe it. ] (]) 13:54, 10 November 2020 (UTC) |
|
The forced fumbles in the article and in the stats box do not match up and the article says 3 but the stats box says 1 and 1 is correct according to NFL.com. Also the hyperlink to NFL.com shows him having 184 careers tackles, not 238.] (]) 19:27, 18 September 2018 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 16:05, 18 September 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|
|
|
*'''Support''' Although I personally believe that he was killed in friendly fire, that bit in the lede should be made more neutral. ~ ]] 22:16, 11 November 2020 (UTC) |
|
<ref>{{cite web |website=http://www.nfl.com/player/pattillman/2503360/careerstats}}</ref> |
|
|
|
*'''Attribute''' in the lead (note that we already attribute it in the body.) Most of the sources, especially higher-quality ones, are carefully-worded and say that eg. his death was eventually ruled to be friendly fire by congressional investigations or by the investigation by the U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command; our article reflects that, so the lead should as well. I would be skeptical about ''replacing'' the word because almost any other word would carry implications that aren't well-backed-up by the sources, but given that the circumstances of his death were at least clearly disputed ''at the time'', if for different reasons than this RFC is focused on, I don't think it weakens things too much to note the source of the final legal determinations. This is comparable to how we word coverage of crimes (stating X was found guilty by Y rather than overtly stating guilt in the article voice); while this wasn't strictly a criminal investigation it was in many respects similar. Note that this might require a degree of rewording and restructuring to the lead (I would personally prefer to avoid wording like {{tq|were the subject of national attention when he was killed in action as a result of what a congressional investigation determined was friendly fire}}, since wedging it in there sort of implies doubt; whereas it would be better if we could split and rearrange stuff so we can say something like {{tq|Investigations by the Department of Defense and U.S. Congress eventually concluded that Tillman's death was the result of ]}}, which seems like neutral wording to me when dealing with a legal determination that was at a bare minimum controversial or shocking at the time.) --] (]) 22:28, 12 November 2020 (UTC) |
|
|
*'''Attribute''' per ].] (]) 18:35, 14 November 2020 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Some simple facts == |
|
{{reflist-talk}} |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Some things may be in dispute, but some shouldn't be. |
|
==Friendly fire== |
|
|
|
:What was his precise rank (E-4, E-5, or whatever) at his death? What was his function in his unit, and how many soldiers if any were under his command? Was he commanding Serial 1? Was the incident in daylight or night? What were Tillman's wounds? Were there other casualties during the incident?] (]) 02:15, 25 January 2021 (UTC) |
|
{{ping|Konli}} Four times now (, , , ) you have changed the description and link in the lead from the ] article to the ] article. Your last edit summary stated "''The DOD can call it , but that assertion isn't backed up by what we know of events.''" What do you mean by that comment? Regards, ] (]) 17:57, 17 June 2020 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
⚫ |
== Results? == |
|
:The first sentence of ] states: "Friendly fire is an euphemism for a failed or misguided attack by a military force on friendly or neutral troops while attempting to attack the enemy." There's a suspicion that Tillman was deliberately targeted, which means we can't be reasonably certain his death was truly a result of friendly fire. But whatever way things went down, there's no doubting it was ]. If there was a section in the friendly fire article that covered deliberate or suspected deliberate fratricide, I'd happily link to there, but there isn't. ] (]) 18:14, 17 June 2020 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
"According to AP analysis, three lower-level officers are expected to be punished, and Kauzlarich may be one of the three." And...? ] (]) 03:54, 15 April 2022 (UTC) |
|
::I read through the article just now, and saw deeper in the body the speculation by Chris Matthews in 2007 that Tillman was actually murdered based on the autopsy saying he was shot by .556 rounds from 30 feet away, followed by speculation from some FOIA requests, and then a quote to a self-web-published opinion piece by Michael I. Niman, claiming that Tillman was about to go public with anti-Bush administration views then suddenly got dead on a patrol in Afghanistan, insinuating that he was killed to silence him. Not a lot of quality RS content to go on there (some of it happens to have COPYVIO problems as well as RS and DUE issues). Even if it were well sourced and substantial from the point of DUE, however, "fratricide" is still the wrong term. The right term in that instance would be alleged killing, murder, or assassination (the latter especially in the context of politics). When used in regard to the battlefield, "fratricide" is still an accidental killing just like friendly fire, not a deliberate killing (like the way "fragging" is used in colloquial military parlance). The Army defines fratricide as ''“the employment of friendly weapons and munitions with the intent to kill the enemy or destroy his equipment or facilities, which results in unforeseen and unintentional death or injury to friendly personnel”'' (1992). Regards, ] (]) 20:03, 17 June 2020 (UTC) |
|
|
:::It's not my intention to have the article assert that Tillman was deliberately killed by a colleague; rather, I'd prefer not to use language that definitively rules that out. Whatever about the US Army definition, linking to ] with its current content gives the strong impression that the killing was accidental, which is in doubt. ] (]) 00:28, 24 June 2020 (UTC) |
|
Who is Prof. Michael I. Niman and why is he quoted in this article? It would make sense for the article to explain why he has authority in this subject.
Mosquitoer2 (talk) 11:19, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
The circumstances of Tillman's killing are disputed, with indications towards both manslaughter and accident. The current description of the cause of death as friendly fire gives (in my opinion) too strong an impression of the latter. I believe we ought to find a more neutral way to describe it. Konli17 (talk) 13:54, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
Some things may be in dispute, but some shouldn't be.
"According to AP analysis, three lower-level officers are expected to be punished, and Kauzlarich may be one of the three." And...? 104.153.40.58 (talk) 03:54, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
Referencing and citation: criterion met
