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Talk:History of the Jews in Russia and the Soviet Union/Archive 1

No Jewish Settlements before the pale? Come on, not many sure, but none, there were Jewish settlements in China and India. e.g. 1) Granted Khazaria was a temporary phenomenon, still The Jews of Khazaria; by Kevin Alan Brook. 360 pages, 6" x 9" size, Jason Aronson Inc., publishers; 3rd printing, September 2002: ISBN 0-7657-6212-9 (paperback/softcover). Originally published April, 1999, ISBN 0-7657-6032-0 (1st & 2nd printings: cloth/hardcover).

"The Jews of Khazaria recounts the eventful history of the Turkic kingdom of Khazaria, which was located in eastern Europe and flourished as an independent state from about 650 to 1016."

"The Jews of Khazaria draws upon the latest archival, linguistic, and archaeological discoveries. For instance, the book contains archaeological data from sites such as Chelarevo (Serbia), Ellend (Hungary), Sarkel (Russia), Balanjar (North Caucasus), Semikarakovskoye (Russia), Navahradak (Belarus), and Birka (Sweden)."

Further details on the WWW (including many Web sites from which the book can be purchased): The Jews of Khazaria

2) 1727 May 07 Jews are expelled from Ukraine by Empress Catherine I of Russia. ... Can't be expelled unless they are there.

Ukraine was the part of Poland, seized in 1686. Jews were present only in Poland and for a short period in the areas that were taken over from Poland.

Partition of Poland generally refers to 1772 and later ... there were Jews in Russia before that time (as evidence indicates). Ukraine was once controlled by Poland just as it was once governed by Russia and is now independent. And do you really believe that there was not a single Jewish person in as large a country as Russia, that every single person of Jewish ancestory or belief was expelled. I will just delete the sentence as it stands. dml

3) http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=479&letter=R&search=russia#1396

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Hello, 145.xxx.etc. I would have answered on your talk page, but you do not have one yet. First, welcome to Misplaced Pages. I hope you continue to contribute. As for your question regarding Jewish settlement in Russia, you are right in that it first occurred rather late--however, it was earlier than 1772. Some of the confusion that you rightly pointed out regards the boundaries of Russia and Poland before the partition--much of Ukraine was actually under Polish rule, the Crimea and the Caucasus were not yet under Russian rule, etc. However, I will give some early dates in Russia proper, based on two sources: 1) Dubnow, History of the Jews in Russia and Poland, Vol. 1 (JTS, 1916), and 2) Pinkus, B., The Jews of the Soviet Union (Cambridge University Press, 1990). According to Dubnow, the first substantial Jewish population in Russia came with the annexation of Little Russia in 1654. According to Pinkus, there were already Jewish merchants attached to the army of Dmitry the Pretender in 1605-1606. He adds that a Russian law passed in 1644 proscribed a death penalty for anyone attempting to convert people from the Russian faith and circumcise them--this can only be a reference to Jews. Peter the Great did allow apostasized Jews to settle in Russia and even allowed practicing Jewish bankers to settle in Moscow (Jewish cloth merchants apparently settled in Moscow illegally, so that in 1676 it was necessary to renew an order expelling them from the city. When Catherine I expelled the Jews from all Russian domains in 1727 (the problemt ostensibly began with the building of a synagogue in Zverovich, near Smolensk. The ukase began: "It has come to our attention that some Jews in our Empire, and particularly in Little Russia, continue to live there under false pretences ...), there was an outcry from nobles who required them to fill certain economic positions. There was a blood libel in Gorodnya, Little Russia, in 1702. Toward the end of his reign, Peter the Great allowed Lipmann Levy, a banker and "court Jew" to settle in St. Petersburg. According to one Russian historian (though I believe it to be an exaggerration) 35,000 Jews were expelled from Russia in 1753. I can go on, but this should serve to base my case. Danny 00:15, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Thanks! It was exactly what I wanted to hear. There were some settlement, although against the general rule, that Jews were not allowed.

I suggest to move the article to "History of the Jews in Russia and the Soviet Union", since this is what this article actually is: (1) pre-revolution Russia, USSR, (3) postsoviet Russia. If no serious objections in 10 days, I'll do it. Mikkalai 17:50, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The following piece cut from the body:

Anti-Semitism was probably reduced by 1930, but not wholly by ideological campaigns, such as Yevslektsia, a government entity meant to expose anti-Semitic incidents closed in 1930 by Stalin, citing reduced anti-Semitism due to Soviet policies.

The wikipedian probably misunderstood something somehere. The (correctly named) Yevsektsiya article explains the issue more clearly. Mikkalai 01:37, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC) --- 172: Next time please watch for double redirects yourself. Mikkalai 09:48, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

einsatzgruppen

Why were the einsatzgruppen removed? It may have little to do with the USSR but it has a lot to do with the Jews in Russia. Andries 11:58, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I have removed that empty section: IMHO, it belongs to the Shoah, but if you strongly think otherwise, fine with me. Arguably, more relevant to this article would be a section regarding the Jews' yesterday's neighbors and even old friends (most notably some Ukrainians, Byelorussians, Lithuanians, Latvians, etc.) who volunteered to collaborate with the Nazis in their extermination. Even after the war, the incidents analogous to the Kielce pogrom were ocurring in other places, too. We should not forget the Righteous among the nations who saved many Jews risking their own and their children's lives. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 06:41, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yes, it does belong in the article althought may be under a different title e.g. "Jews under Nazi occupation"? The Nazis killed thousands of Jews so leaving this completely unmentioned is ridiculous. Andries 18:01, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Persecution of Jews in Russia

Didn't serious persecution of Jews in Russia actually begin during the late 1800s? Marcus2 22:23, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

What is 7-40?

Supposedly it is a song related to emigration of Jews from the Soviet Union.  What is known about this? — Monedula 11:16, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

AFAIK, it is a Jewish folk song. See ←Humus sapiens←Talk 17:57, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Integration?

"Integration of the Jews and movement from countryside shtetls ..." Should this perhaps be "assimilation" rather than "integration"? Or do I misunderstand? -- Jmabel 08:21, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)

Having received no response, I have made this change. -- Jmabel 02:13, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)

This is inaccurate

Law throughout Soviet history, however, listed Jews as one of the union's "basic nations", with their own language (Yiddish), and their own autonomous region — a failed, inhospitable settlement in Siberia that was nonetheless symbolic. The word "Yevrei" or "Jew" is also listed in the nationality section (an infamous "pyataja grafa", or "fifth record") of the obligatory internal passport document, which states the nationality of all Soviet citizens. Such treatment of the Jews as a nationality is somewhat alien to Jewish law, but reminiscent of Zionism. In May 1976, the Soviet journal Party Life prominently even displayed Jews as a distinct "nationality." However many Jews who recall the Holocaust, mistrust being classified as a "nationality" (preferring a more appropriate classification as a religion).

This is absolutely not true. Eastern European Jews identify themselves as an ethnic group or "nationality." Most are quite proud about their secular Jewish traditions, and the vast majority are atheists who identify with the culture of Judaism.

Being classified as a "nationality" wasn't a problem. It was the discrimination that usually ensued when a person was identified as a Jew that was the problem.

Kettle 15:42, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Any reason there is no discussion of...

1. Influence of Haskalah in Russia and the consequent changes in the character of Russian Jewry?
2. The government-run liberal rabbinical schools in the mid-to-late 19th century, such as the one at Zhitomir?
3. Relative loosening up on several fronts (e.g. somewhat easier for Jews to get gov't jobs, somewhat better treatment in the military) during the reign of Alexander II, followed by very harsh repression right afer his assassination?
4. Conversely, I believe that it is entirely wrong to say "During the reign of Alexander III the first pogroms against the Jews happened in Russia." I'm not sure when pogroms began, but Passover was a time of moderate-to-severe terror against Jews long before the reign of Alexander III. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:07, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)

UkrSSR

UkrSSR it the abreviation for Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. This was official name of the part of the Soviet Union which became Ukraine after desintegration of the USSR in 1991. The regional branch of the Academy of Sciencies of the USSR had official name "Academy of Sciencies of UkrSSR". Please do not revert my correction. Andry

I get 21,400 Google hits for "Ukrainian Academy of Sciences", another 400 for "Ukranian Academy of Sciences", and 30 for "Academy of Sciences of UkrSSR", and 147 for "Academy of Sciences of the UkrSSR". "Ukrainian Academy of Sciences" is by far the most common English name for the organization. Please do not revert my correction, or you will have violated the Misplaced Pages:Three revert rule, and will be subject to banning. Jayjg 21:13, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The reason is that UkrSSR existed before the Internet boom. That's why you have found so little hits for "Academy of Sciences of UkrSSR". See Ukrainian SSR. The names of the Academy at different times are listed in the Ukrainian version of wikipedia in the article "Akademija nauk Ukrajiny" (should be typed in Cyrillic letters, of cause).

"Dozens of research institutes in various fields formed the Academy of Sciences of the Ukrainian SSR." This is the citation from the article Kiev Andriy

I see, you have corrected. Thanks. Andriy

Naming

Is there a particular reason, or need, for this article's name to specify "and the Soviet Union". I realise the Soviet Union was a larger entity than Russia - but the government was essentially based where it is now. --Oldak Quill 02:33, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)