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About Dingling antropology from Chinese chronicles

Probably Dinglings or dinlins are not tieles. The antropology of Dinlins is well-known . --User:Giorgiomugnaini

Look, friend, there's no such things as "tattoed giants with red hair Dinlin" in Chinese chronicles, I had check every possible primary sources and none of them refer to what you said. Unless you quoted a Chinese sources that stated "tattoed giants with red hair Dinlin" to me, if not, DON'T TRY to make any rv, the antropology of Dingling is UNKNOWN. --User:Dingling

I think you confuse Dinlins with Tieles. They were two different peoples, lived in two different periods. It is well accepted that Dinlins were europeoids. --Giorgiomugnaini

How could they be two different peoples when the Chinese chronicles stated they were the same people from the DIFFERENT PERIODS, it is not accepted, Dingling is not an europeoids, since the antropology of Dingling is UNKNOWN. --User:Dingling

And what about Wusuns? --User:Giorgiomugnaini

For Wusun, please visit Wusun, and please talk in the Dingling Discussion, so that all other people could seen it, for further assist on such issue in future. --User:Dingling

Well, you accept that europoids were in Uigur (and in Central Asia and Siberia), right? --User:Giorgiomugnaini

Of course, the modern Uyghur in Xinjiang had mixture largeness with the Tocharian and some Arabs after the 9th-century, they're different, and the Uyghur did not look anything like the europoid (blond) but more of Arab.

btw, what's your points?

--User:Dingling

Ok. I will search for primary sources about dinlins. Now I have only russian literature. But It is important to observe that if we identify Dinlins with the siberian Afanasian culture, then the dinlins were really paleo-europoids (red-beard, light eyes) . Right? See you later. --User:Giorgiomugnaini

Oh sure, there's still one thing, before you quote anything please be sure to state the source (primary ones) that you quote from. To be exact, I need the Chinese source that is stated "tattoed giants with red hair" to me, other than that you can give-it-up.

btw, there's no we, I had never identify the Dingling with such neolithic culture, since the concept of ethno-dinlins at that time wasn't even exist, not to mention anything of proto.

--User:Dingling

Indeed in the neolithic, We can not speak of Dinlins.
But The (russian) proposal is that the dinlins could be the descendants of Afanasian and then Tagar cultures. However I want to ask some questions:

• Do you confirm that Dinlins lived near Yenisey river and in Minusinsk basin, with a branch in Dzungaria?
• Do you confirm that the abovementioned (and controversial) physical description can be adapt to Kiagasz (ancient Kirgyzes or ancient Khakass)?

Please, tranquillize yourself, I'm not a supremacist. I have appreciated the humoristic description of Wusuns. The antropological differences between different peoples always generate such comical situations. Do wou know the description of Huns (probably a branch of Hsiung-nu) by Ammianus Marcellinus, a Latin writer? See you later. --User:Giorgiomugnaini

I've another point. So, do you think that the russian sources are somewhat wrong?--User:Giorgiomugnaini.

You should be the one that should tranquillize yourself, you seem like a supremacist to me whether you prefer or not. What the poor russian could did is only a proposal, and its a possibilities out of 100%, either one way or another Dinglings antropology remain unknown in the Chinese chronicles, which is not the case you referred "tattoed giants with red hair Dinlin" from Chinese chronicles.

Since the Chinese chronicles clearly mentioned Dinglings live basically or wholly in the Lake Baikal on the river of Lena (or maybe the story of Su Wu could tells the truth, he was the one that get expelled to this region, and get tease by the Dinglings), and since you insist to find the primary sources of "tattoed giants with red hair Dinlin", I'm glad to not stopping you from spending time. But pointing out the Huns case are even of poor example, the Huns were different from Xiongnu, they should be considered as the a possible immigrants of Xiongnu with mixture of Alans, Germanic, Roman, etc, etc, Oh yes, and maybe the poor russsian :)

--User:Dingling

I know that Huns were different from Hsiung-nu. Indeed I used the expression: 'probably a branch of Hsiung-nu;, well? But it is commonly accepted that a part of Hsiung-nu produced the main body of people of Huns. However you don't answered me about Yenisey Kirgizes. I want to repeat that I'm not a supremacist. I find amusing the fact that some peoples of "Barbarians of North" can have some european features (see the incipit of "Tale of Water Margin", also known as "The Brigands of Liangshan Moor") . Ok?

--User:Giorgiomugnaini.

And so what's your point on the Huns thing? You seem like a supremacist to me, even if you repeated a 100 times. And please, IF you're trying to quote a source please state a ch: or volume under Tale of Water Margin, so that the other people could understand what you're trying to said.

btw, answer you on what about Yenisey Kirgizes?

--User:Dingling

Chapter 1, the description of Luta (and also the description of Yang-Chich, in another chapter). If you remember:

• Do you confirm that the abovementioned (and controversial) physical description can be adapt to Kiagasz (ancient Kirgyzes (yenisey kirgyzes) or ancient Khakass)?--User:Giorgiomugnaini.

And what regarding the Chapter 1 on the europeans features? Also the Yenisey Kirgiz tribes that mentioned on Chinese chronicles clearly state there were two type of antropology (One black hair and eyes, another blue eye with coloured hair) for the tribes, which antropology are you referring to?

btw, you haven't answered me what's your point on Huns+Hsiung-nu thing, why do you give this example.

--User:Dingling

I have given the example of Huns, because it is normal that a people does not appreciate the physical fatures of a different population (the macacus aspect of Wusun, remember?)

In my version of this book, Luta has a red beard, as the barbarians of North. If you have not such passage, perhaps your documentations is corrupted or also censored. The blue eyes and coloured hair are the feature I refer. --User:Giorgiomugnaini

I'm so sorry that I had upset you, but the version of mine, state that Liu Tang is a "red hair warrior"�?and there's a different between hair and beard，he has a vermilion mark on his beard which earned this title, he is from T'ungluchow. It doesn't mentioned anything on the barbarians of North. Perhaps your documentations is corrupted or also censored by the russian government.

btw, even so you referred the blue eyes and coloured hair, what exactly is your point of it? You should have answered me what's your point on the Huns+Hsiung-nu thing, why do you give this example?

--User:Dingling

I have given the example of Huns, because it is normal that a people does not appreciate the physical fatures of a different population (the macacus aspect of Wusun, remember?)

The point is that some barbarian peoples, or also some chineses, had (or have) some uncommon fatures. --user:Giorgiomuganini

Well, that's not a point, how could it be normal that a person does not appreciate the physical features of a different population, what exactly is your point? And so do you meant to say that those features (blue eyes, brown hair) in some Chinese population actually belonged to the european features? Are they considered as europeans too?

--User:Dingling

202.156.6.54, if you're going to sign as "User:Dingling," you should seriously considering registering as "Dingling." As it stands, people can justifiably believe that you are forging signatures, which is considered a serious offense in Misplaced Pages. --Nlu (talk) 11:16, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

It is obvious that such features appear most frequently among europoids, in this sense are "europeans". I'have written about Huns (ugly for Romans), because someone ;-) written that Wusuns were ugly for Chineses. --User:Giorgiomugnaini

For the features of Mongoloid please visit Mongoloid, you are claiming something that is not even exisit, so if blue eye and brown hair meaning europoids, does that mean peoples of europoids from other part of asia, such as the cases for Arab, etc (black hair and eyes) are in some way Mongoloid? --User:Dingling

"someone written that Wusuns were ugly for Chineses" I don't understand what exactly is your point, its not a self-written statement, it a sources from chronicles. -- Eiorgiomugini

Ok. There was a misunderstanding. But what awful Id ! ;-) Indeed, I have improperly used the term europoid in the sense of Paleo-europoid (Cromagnon), because such features seem they were more common in the european Prehistory. I wouldn't use the awful expression "Nordic" european. Ugh. However, I have seen several interesting images of Mongoloids with fair or red hair on the Web. --User:Giorgiomugnaini

Oh sorry, Its the Id I choosen. But you havan't answered my question, if blue eye and brown hair meaning europoids, does that mean peoples of europoids from other part of asia, such as the cases for Arab, etc (black hair and eyes) are in some way Mongoloid, do they have Mongoloid genes? Which is why they have black hair and eyes. --Eiorgiomugini

The answer is: obviously not. Moreover, I do not say that light (eyes|beard|hair) necessarily imply European ancestry (in some cases, obviously yes). I want only to say that the (paleo-) antropology of Eurasia is very complicated. --User:Giorgiomugnaini.

This is not what you said earlier. you seem to imply that peoples with coloured hair or eyes feature are common only among euopreans. I need a explanation on that. Since black hair and eyes are Mongoloid, Arabs should had be considered as part of Mongoloid genes too, why is it obviously not the case? Don't try to elope out of it --Eiorgiomugini

I hope you accept that light features are more common among nord-european, right? The problem is the origins of light features. If such features appeared first among Cromagnons, or not. If yes, we can state that such features are paelo-europoid, and perhaps it could be diffused on other populations, in the paleolithic or neolithic. But it is only an Hypothesys! --User:Giorgiomugnaini

Black hair and eyes are largely diffused in negroids, mongoloids, and so on... And obviously also in Europoid (Arabs, Indians of India ...)!

Well, that would be strange since the europeans look different from each other, I could simply point out an example, such as the cases for Texan as compare to that English who lives in British Isles, they looks different. So do you seems to imply and said that the populations of europoids that includes black hair and eyes, are the result from diffused on other populations, such as cases from Mongoloid, in the paleolithic or neolithic? Since black hair and eyes are Mongoloid --Eiorgiomugini

I have not understood what you want to demonstrate, but I think that now the discussion is not concerning Dinlins, right?. However the concerning point is that, probably, in the Bronze age some Iranics and Tocharians merged with proto-turks in Central Asia and Siberia. This hypothesys does not seem too strange , or scandalous. What do you think about it?. --User:Giorgiomugnaini

Well, it could be, since the Iranics are generally having black eyes and hair, with darker skin, the Chinese in some sense are whiter than them, or maybe the Chinese are europoids? I thought you said that this is not a concerning of Dinlins anymore, why do you keep discuss about the coloured eyes and hairs of europoids? Do you want to talk about it? I can talk about it, I would love to hear your explanation --Eiorgiomugini

The early iranics had often a somewhat fair complexion (see for example the modern iranic Ossetians). Indeed the modern Iranians ( inhabitants of Iran) are often dark. The main idea was that the Dinlins and also Kyrgyzes were a fusion of steppe-iranics (or tocahrians) with proto-turks. Now, probably this is not the case for Dinlins, if an antropological reference for Dinlins does not really exist in Chinese literature. --User:giorgiomugnaini.

The early iranics? Which part of the early iranics population are you talking about, because they looks different too. The Kyrgyz could be, but the Dinglings are not part of the steppe-iranics, because the features of Dinglings are unknown, I'm talking about the majority of them. It is not because that the antropological reference (usually not very detailed) does not really exist in Chinese literature, but the facts is these were only used as a differentiate for themseleves, unless there's a different circumstance, such as the cases for Yenisey Kyrgyz (Black hair and eyes, blue eyes and colour hair, remember?). But, since you are referring to an ideal, its nothing wrong then --Eiorgiomugini

Well, if I have understood, you admit the possibility that at least Kyrgyzes contained early iranics or tocharians elements. Right? However it is a very shame not to know the Chinese language. Bye! --User:Giorgiomugnaini

Gaoche means Göç(migration) in Turkic langs

which comes from verb kaç(flee) and been borrowed by western languages as coach(from magyar). High wheel carts are very important while you are moving a city for 3 months their origin shall be göç arabası(migration cart) and somehow existed in chinese as Gaoche and koch in magyar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.240.115.240 (talk • contribs) 12:02, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The words Khazar, Hussar, Kazakh and Cossack are also all said to have derived from the same Göç root. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.13.205 (talk • contribs) 23:41, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

This article is terrible because it lumps so many different peoples together under one label refusing to acknowledge the different roles they played.86.133.121.152 07:44, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Gaoche literary means High wheel, it had got nothing to do with a common semantic, so before you rised your hands and asked a question, at least grasp a clue on that. Eiorgiomugini 01:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

About Dingling antropology

As far as I know there's no antropology refence for Dingling under any Chinese chronologies, but some racists insisted that there must be a single records for that, this article had gone beyond this, not only it is biased, racist but abursd for readers's intelligence, it had violated aginast WP:REF by providing a russian sources instead of an english ones under English wikipedia, this means it could only be referenced by russian and not others. Unitl there's a clear translation for those sources I will had to revert all back to its original form. Eiorgiomugini 01:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

About providing Russian sources instead of an English ones under English wikipedia, I have a statement of an Admin to a similar contention, that if non-English sources were excluded from the WP, half of its present references would be gone. Limiting to only English sources would greatly pauperize WP. If you doubt an accuracy of a perticular reference, I will gladly supply you with any material that may help you to verify it, including referral to an independent Russian-speaking admin. Regards, Barefact 02:45, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Again another POV, I had see no made comments on that, I don't care if the non-English sources were to exclude from English wikipedia. So far I had seen no resemble for your sources you provided with my Chinese sources. Is not the matters of excluding, but the whole article are pretty baised filled with bad english and racist comments, and its accuracy is somewhat twisted. Eiorgiomugini 03:09, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

In addition to subject of non-English sources not used as an excuse for deletion of referenced material, the subject of "pretty baised", "racist comments" applied to such a renowned scholar as L.Gumilev is inconceivable, but may be misconstrued and therefore need re-wording or clarification. Gumilev can't be accused of racistic views, and I did not see anything racist in his studies of Dinlins. Instead of blanking the contents, any comment may and should be addressed individually. Barefact 18:57, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Please do not make such accuse, I don't see any excuse right here, I'm following accroding to the rules in wikipedia. This article itself is based wholly on L.Gumilev work alone, is pretty much baised in such case, and the comments in the article are clearly racist and fancy oriented, it talks about the antropology on Dingling that don't even existed under Chiense chronologies without an clear reference, In addition it also violated aginast WP:MOS-ZH style, I don't care what kinda of view you had on Gumilev, but citing an non-English sources without clear interpret is violated aginast WP:REF, this edits simply cannot stay. Eiorgiomugini 01:22, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Where exactly does it say in WP:REF that non-English sources cannot be used on the English WP? Am I missing something here? --Stacey Doljack Borsody 02:46, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Because this is the English Misplaced Pages, English-language sources should be given whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to other language sources of equal calibre. However, do give references in other languages where appropriate. If quoting from a different language source, an English translation should be given with the original-language quote beside it.

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Keep in mind that translations are subject to error, whether performed by a Misplaced Pages editor or a professional, published translator. In principle, readers should have the opportunity to verify for themselves what the original material actually said, that it was published by a credible source, and that it was translated correctly.

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Eiorgiomugini 03:16, 25 January 2007 (UTC)