Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 06:41, 22 October 2021

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Colin Powell article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 30 days

Template:Vital article

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Colin Powell. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Colin Powell at the Reference desk.

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

A news item involving Colin Powell was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the In the news section on 20 October 2021.

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography: Military / Politics and Government This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by the military biography work group (assessed as High-importance). This article is supported by the politics and government work group (assessed as High-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Vietnam Low‑importance This article is part of WikiProject Vietnam, an attempt to create a comprehensive, neutral, and accurate representation of Vietnam on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.VietnamWikipedia:WikiProject VietnamTemplate:WikiProject VietnamVietnam Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Military history: Biography / North America / United States / Cold War / Post-Cold War This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status: Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met Associated task forces: /  Military biography task force North American military history task force United States military history task force Cold War task force (c. 1945 – c. 1989) Post-Cold War task force Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. United States: Military history Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Military history - U.S. military history task force. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Politics: American Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by American politics task force. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. New York City Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject New York City, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of New York City-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.New York CityWikipedia:WikiProject New York CityTemplate:WikiProject New York CityNew York City Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. African diaspora Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject African diaspora, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of African diaspora on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.African diasporaWikipedia:WikiProject African diasporaTemplate:WikiProject African diasporaAfrican diaspora Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Semi-protected edit request on 14 April 2021

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I found two notable left issues just reading about Powell’s start in the Army: 1) while his high school is listed, and aspects of his college ROTC experience are discussed, his college is not listed—as a former Army officer with an ROTC commission, that was the main reason I read the article; 2) it reads that he attended Basic Training at Ft. Benning GA, but Basic Training is for enlisted personnel, Powell attended the Infantry Officer Basic Course at Ft. Benning. Officers do not attend Basic Training, they attend a branch-specific Officer Basic Course (e.g., Aviation Officer Basic Course, Engineer Officer Basic Course, Field Artillery Officer Basic Course, Armor Officer Basic Course, Infantry Officer Basic Course, etc.). Powell also attended Airborne Course, Air Assault Course, and Ranger Course (all of which I simply see on his uniform).

If you’re going to mention things like his participation in the Pershing Rifles in ROTC(pretty minor and without competitive admission) then it’s much, much more important to mention his college alma mater (where he obtained his commission), Infantry Officer Basic Course, Airborne Course, Air Assault Course, Ranger Course, etc.

A much less important correction is that there is in fact no such rank as “four star general.” The general officer ranks are: Brigadier General (who wear one star for rank insignia), Major General (wearing two stars for insignia), Lieutenant General, (wearing three stars) and simply General (wearing four stars). Just like how you can be an associate editor or assistant editor, but they both aspire to be editor (not full editor, not exalted editor, not four star editor). So, it’s more correct to write that Colin Powell achieved the rank of General (four stars). If necessary, you could write that Powell achieved the rank of General (four stars), the highest possible rank among all US Armed Forces. 2603:6000:9840:E07:40D9:432:1C07:258C (talk) 02:31, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I've added his alma mater. I'm not familiar with the military enough to comment on the others. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 03:06, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

 Partly done: Four-star general is a commonly used term that is well understood by laymen. Any other changes requested should give the exact edit you'd like made, rather than a general idea of what you'd like changed. Thanks. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:17, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

He also wasn't "assistant chief of staff of operations" at the Americal. As a major, he would have been assistant G3. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.28.145.40 (talk) 21:55, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Critisism

To assure a neutral point of view on C.P., there should be a section with a discussion of criticized aspects of his work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.218.164.126 (talk) 12:50, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

@62.218.164.126: I believe the criticism has been integrated into the main text of the article; many editors here dislike 'criticism' or 'controversy' sections in articles. Is there anything specific you think is missing? —AFreshStart (talk) 13:03, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

I don’t like a criticism section, especially on a politican, I think its better to integrate it into the article itself. Perfecnot (talk) 16:06, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

It's not just a matter of editorial preference, but actual policy to avoid criticism sections. Note to "avoid". They are not totally forbidden, but we should try to integrate criticism at the logical spots in the article, as is done here. -- Valjean (talk) 14:32, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 October 2021 (3)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Barak Obama was biracial, not African American. 131.95.194.218 (talk) 14:15, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Please be more specific to what you wish to edit. Perfecnot (talk) 15:55, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 October 2021 (4)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Citation is needed regarding Collin Powell receiving electoral votes in 2016.

https://www.archives.gov/files/electoral-college/2016/vote-washington.pdf

https://www.archives.gov/electoral-college/results records all electoral votes back until 1892 but is this a true statement? After Barack Obama, Powell was only the second Black person to receive electoral votes in a presidential election. 66.57.95.120 (talk) 14:19, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Yeah you i’ll add this  Done Perfecnot (talk) 16:02, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 October 2021 (5)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

He is described as American. He is described as African-American. His parents were Jamaican. He is not African-American as neither he nor his relatives are from any country in Africa. He should be referred to as American, as that is where he was born, or as Jamaican-American. 97.112.202.195 (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Not done; please see African-American. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:48, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Nominated for the Main Page at WP:ITN

An item related to this article has been nominated to appear on the Main Page in the "In the news" section. You can visit the nomination to take part in the discussion. Editors are encouraged to update the article with information obtained from reliable news sources to include recent events. Please remove this template when the nomination process has concluded, replacing it with Template:ITN talk if appropriate.

-Ad Orientem (talk) 00:10, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

 Pending There’s no article about his death specifically yet, until one is made there isn’t anything to be nominated. Perfecnot (talk) 12:11, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

His death has been nominated for mention in the recent deaths section and also is under discussion for a possible blurb. In most cases where a death is being discussed the practice is to link to the subject's bio article. The last time I looked their was little apatite for a blurb but the main hold up with linking the article to RD was the large number of CN tags. -Ad Orientem (talk) 12:39, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Are you planning on creating a blurb? Perfecnot (talk) 12:49, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

The proposed blurb and discussion are here. -Ad Orientem (talk) 13:22, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 October 2021

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Graduated from George Washington University 128.164.181.40 (talk) 03:19, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

 Done Jurisdicta (talk) 04:40, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

I updated the Edit Request tag to yes as per the response from Jurisdicta. I Am Chaos (talk) 06:12, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Thank you! Jurisdicta (talk) 06:41, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

To add to article

To add to this article: which brand of vaccine Powell received, and whether he was fully vaccinated. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 04:53, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

 Not done Already says he was vaccinated, the of brand of vaccine is irrelevant. Perfecnot (talk) 12:02, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Just announced on CNN: Powell had not received a Covid-19 vaccine booster because, near the end of his life, he was too sick to take it. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 05:18, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

 Not done This would be relevant in a article about his death, but not his main article. It’s too specific. Perfecnot (talk) 12:25, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Edit request: Col. Powell

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please change the hatnote to handle the incoming redirect Colonel Powell so that a link to the disambiguation page Colonel Powell (disambiguation) appears here.

Change

{{Redirect|General Powell}}

to

{{Redirect-multi|2|General Powell|Colonel Powell}}

-- 64.229.90.53 (talk) 15:56, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

 Done RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:30, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 October 2021 (2)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Death On October 18, 2021, Powell, who was being treated for multiple myeloma, (158] died at Walter Reed National Military Medical Center of complications from COVID-19 at the age of 84.1159] He had been vaccinated, but his myeloma compromised his immune system.

He had been vaccinated, but his myeloma compromised his immune system.

Has this information been confirmed by his medical doctor or family? If it has not, out of respect for him and his family, that statement should be removed. The family was very clear about his death and it should be stated as such. 2600:8801:38A3:E300:48FE:842D:3736:8CB1 (talk) 23:36, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

The cited source (New York Times) states "A spokeswoman said his immune system had been compromised by multiple myeloma, for which he had been undergoing treatment." The same article mentions his vaccination status multiple times. If you're questioning the credibility of the spokesperson, that's something to take up with the New York Times. This is sufficiently verifiable to appear in the article. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 00:01, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

28 crises

I thought the language in the lede and body referring to "28 crises" was bizarrely specific. Turns out it appears in his official Bush administration bio. But I am still rather baffled. Is "crisis" a term of art in natsec or international relations such that a person can clearly be stated to have overseen exactly 28 crises—no more, no less? AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 01:01, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, it's bizarrely specific. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:38, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Black

Colin Powell was not African-American by heritage, similar to Barack Obama, Kamala Harris, etc.. Black, yes (Jamaican). African-American (people who are descendants of African slaves on American soil), no. The first paragraph should read that he was the first Black SOS.72.174.131.123 (talk) 09:08, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Agree, per , , , . Only one I see offhand using "African American" is NPR. Suggest that we settle this on talk to avoid what is sure to be a slow-motion edit war over his proper ethnic designation (see the history of Lloyd Austin for an analogous example). AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 12:44, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

What scholarly tome defines African-American as "a descendant of slaves on American soil" ? 50.111.2.158 (talk) 15:35, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm sure there a plenty of textbooks found in African-American history departments throughout U.S. colleges. This should be a no-brainer, however. His ancestry is Jamaican, so that's an answer in itself. Without duly acknowledging/respecting AA heritage, articles about said people lump millions of people (today and in the future) together by default. That's like saying that African-Americans are Jamaican, which isn't true; different culture (food, music, historical background, celebrations/traditions, etc.), but a somewhat shared experience in America, which is where the confusion may lie. Barack Obama isn't African-American, either.72.174.131.123 (talk) 01:13, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Raimondo

Mox La Push, You added this book, published by the "America First Political Action Committee" and written by the clearly partisan Justin Raimondo, to the bibliography. I doubt that it is a WP:RS. Can you explain why you added it? AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 13:01, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Sources may be partisan, but our edit summaries must be neutral. What makes you think this won't pass RS muster? A whole multitude of dem-pac sources sure have. 50.111.2.158 (talk) 15:32, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

I think it's unreliable because it's published by an advocacy organization and written by a political advocate. May be reliable for Raimondo's own opinions but not for facts. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 17:50, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for asking, AleatoryPonderings. I agree that Raimondo's book is a political critique of Powell but, not to put too fine a point on it, I don't agree it is "partisan". Raimondo's book represents a libertarian, non-interventionist perspective that helps make the bibliography more encyclopedic by reflecting a broader range of perspectives on Powell. AFAIK, Raimondo's book is not currently cited as a source for any text in the article. I don't know whether WP:RS applies to books listed in bibliography sections. If it does then I agree the book should probably be removed per WP:SPS and I'll do it myself, if necessary.--Mox La Push (talk) 22:36, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Ah, I think it's just a miscommunication re "bibliography". I'm fine to have it in the further reading section—just not fine with it being used as a source (and I agree that it's not used as a source). I had created "bibliography" as a place to accumulate multi-page sources for ease of use with {{sfn}}, whereas "further reading" need not include sources. I'll move Raimondo to further reading if there are no objections? AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 22:44, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your measured approach. I'm not prepared to object to your proposal but I do have two concerns for your consideration. First, everything currently in "Further reading" lists Powell as a co-author while none of the bibliography entries do. Thus, if you make that move then Raimondo's book will be the only entry in that section not co-authored by Powell. Second, I note the style essay for Further reading says: "Editors most frequently choose high-quality reliable sources. However, other sources may be appropriate, including: historically important publications; creative works or primary sources discussed extensively in the article; and seminal, but now outdated, scientific papers. When such sources are listed, the relevance of the work should be explained by a brief annotation." Powell really came on to the national stage with Persian Gulf war and then, building on that, the 1995 publication of My American Journey. So, an annotation might note that Raimondo's book is relevant as coming from a prominent non-interventionist early in Powell's time on the national stage. Since Raimondo's book is almost certainly self-published it would not withstand a concerted attack via WP:SPS. As an aside, I think Misplaced Pages's excessive and undue deference to "reliable sources" warps the project so that it favors the views of corporate-backed "stenographers of power". I think reliable sources is a useful policy that should be kept and adjusted, not jettisoned. In any case, keeping Raimondo's book in the Powell article is not a matter upon which I'm willing to expend much more time and energy. If you have further questions or concerns to share with me then I will happily reply but I'm probably content at this point to defer to your judgment on the issue.--Mox La Push (talk) 06:06, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

I moved it, and agree that we have perhaps spilled too much ink on this point by now. I disagree that focussing on reliable sources is in any sense a defect of the project—surely we would not want to rely on unreliable sources—but perhaps our definition of "reliable" is unduly restrictive. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 15:36, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

This extended interview may be useful

https://time.com/6107966/colin-powell-time-interview/ Victor Grigas (talk) 17:02, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Redirect

Hi, at the moment, this article can be reached by a redirect from Colonel Powell. This seems to me to be fundamentally a wrong approach as Colin Powell is clearly enormously notable for his entire life's work, not merely for any time he spent at that rank; also, he is sufficiently well-known that I am certain our readers would type his name correctly if they are looking for Colin Powell, and are most likely to type Colonel Powell if they are looking for one of the various other Colonel Powell's that have existed. I would like to suggest that we get rid of the Colonel Powell redirect that brings people to this article, and instead allow a search for Colonel Powell to direct to the Colonel Powell disambiguation page. I think it reasonable that the disambiguation page have reference to this article, in case anyone lands up there by mistake. Is this an appropriate change? I have not gone straight for a PROD at the redirect page in case there are good reasons against. Elemimele (talk) 18:17, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

@Elemimele I think redirecting Colonel Powell to Colonel Powell (disambiguation) makes a lot of sense. I would, however, comment that when I visited the DAB page I completely missed the top notice about Colin Powell because my eye went straight to the 'People' section, where he is not listed. This might be one time when moving that header notice into the People section would be a good idea. Nick Moyes (talk) 19:19, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

@Nick Moye, strewth, things move fast here! Someone's already moved the header notice. Thanks for the suggestion, I agree entirely. Elemimele (talk) 20:17, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

That would be me... :-).

It turns out the dab page was only created a few days ago. I just cleaned it up, and shifted the redirect to point to there instead of here, since now that a disambiguation page exists, that seems like a more appropriate target.--NapoliRoma (talk) 20:23, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages articles that use American English
• Misplaced Pages In the news articles
• All unassessed articles
• B-Class biography articles
• B-Class biography (military) articles
• High-importance biography (military) articles
• Military biography work group articles
• B-Class biography (politics and government) articles
• High-importance biography (politics and government) articles
• Politics and government work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• B-Class Vietnam articles
• Low-importance Vietnam articles
• All WikiProject Vietnam pages
• B-Class military history articles
• B-Class North American military history articles
• North American military history task force articles
• B-Class United States military history articles
• United States military history task force articles
• B-Class Cold War articles
• Cold War task force articles
• B-Class Post-Cold War articles
• Post-Cold War task force articles
• B-Class United States articles
• Low-importance United States articles
• B-Class United States articles of Low-importance
• WikiProject United States articles
• B-Class politics articles
• Low-importance politics articles
• B-Class American politics articles
• Unknown-importance American politics articles
• American politics task force articles
• WikiProject Politics articles
• B-Class New York City articles
• Low-importance New York City articles
• WikiProject New York City articles
• B-Class African diaspora articles
• Low-importance African diaspora articles
• WikiProject African diaspora articles