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::::::::::{{re|HistoryofIran}} LOL insulting you?? I never said anything about you personally just about your edits and editing behavior. It’s important to learn not to take those things personally. ANI is where you go when editors refuse discussion and continue reverting, which i’m sure you’d do had I reverted back as per ]. Also, two “veteran editors?” having edited on Misplaced Pages for a longer time does not make you right in a discussion, let’s get that straight. I didn’t synthesize anything, Canepa was the one who said the association with Vahagn to Heracles was an Armenian tradition, I simply gave an additional source backing that up. In addition, just because other sources do not bring something up doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be included, I can find a multitude of sources which include Armenian gods as well if you wish, but I think we can agree Canepa is a reliable enough source as it is. If you have concerns about due weight, just say that and i’ll provide additional sources but you saying that my citation doesn’t back up my claim is simply wrong. Again he literally says “ “Although short lived, his monuments provide monumental proof of the power and importance of a resurgent, post-Seleucid Iranian kinship and Armenian religion’s role in its formation.”] (]) 00:12, 30 October 2021 (UTC) ::::::::::{{re|HistoryofIran}} LOL insulting you?? I never said anything about you personally just about your edits and editing behavior. It’s important to learn not to take those things personally. ANI is where you go when editors refuse discussion and continue reverting, which i’m sure you’d do had I reverted back as per ]. Also, two “veteran editors?” having edited on Misplaced Pages for a longer time does not make you right in a discussion, let’s get that straight. I didn’t synthesize anything, Canepa was the one who said the association with Vahagn to Heracles was an Armenian tradition, I simply gave an additional source backing that up. In addition, just because other sources do not bring something up doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be included, I can find a multitude of sources which include Armenian gods as well if you wish, but I think we can agree Canepa is a reliable enough source as it is. If you have concerns about due weight, just say that and i’ll provide additional sources but you saying that my citation doesn’t back up my claim is simply wrong. Again he literally says “ “Although short lived, his monuments provide monumental proof of the power and importance of a resurgent, post-Seleucid Iranian kinship and Armenian religion’s role in its formation.”] (]) 00:12, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::::If you think you are so right, then do please keep it up so I can report you to WP:ANI, then we can let an admin be the judge of that. I never said that being a veteran user makes me right in a discussion, please don't put words in my mouth. There is nothing wrong with refusing to discuss further when one of the participants is unable to follow core policies such as ], I'm sure the people at ANI will tell you the same. Still doesn't say that the pantheon was also Armenian, as Canepa already called it Greco-Iranian, what do you think he meant by the latter word? And what do you think of those sources I posted? --] (]) 00:20, 30 October 2021 (UTC) :::::::::::If you think you are so right, then do please keep it up so I can report you to WP:ANI, then we can let an admin be the judge of that. I never said that being a veteran user makes me right in a discussion, please don't put words in my mouth. There is nothing wrong with refusing to discuss further when one of the participants is unable to follow core policies such as ], I'm sure the people at ANI will tell you the same. Still doesn't say that the pantheon was also Armenian, as Canepa already called it Greco-Iranian, what do you think he meant by the latter word? And what do you think of those sources I posted? --] (]) 00:20, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::::: As per Misplaced Pages policy, “To call constructive criticism uncivil is potentially disruptive.” Even if you found my criticism of your edits, and simply your edits since I never commented anything personal, uncivil, you’re instructed to ignore them or give a gentle nudge that said editor is being disruptive, not center the entire discussion around that. Is reverting without discussion, refusing to continue discussion, or encouraging another user to edit war just so you can get them blocked civil? How about we move on from the accusations because they are simply unproductive and not advancing the discussion at all. The source literally says that the statues at mount nemrut are representations of the “Anatolian-Armenian religous milieu” and that the associations and names of the gods are closest to the Armenian traditions. I already commented on your sources, that none of them say there weren’t any Armenian gods, if due weight is what you’re concerned about I can find a multitude of other sources, just be clear that that’s what you want. As for Antiochus having Armenian ancestry I don’t know why you reverted as both the sources literally say he does, Canepa says he was proud of his “Armenian royal lineage” and the de gryuter source says he is descended from the “Armenian Orontids.” The sources says he has Armenian ancestry, point blank. He is literally descended from a King of Armenia. The Orontids being Iranian in origin doesn’t mean they weren’t Armenian, just like they mixed with the Persians, it is well know that they were heavily mixed with the native Armenian royal houses. But don’t take my word for it, the sources say he had Armenian ancestors, and they’re much more reliable than tertiary sources such as Iranica.] (]) 00:37, 30 October 2021 (UTC) ::::::::::::{{re|HistoryofIran}} As per Misplaced Pages policy, “To call constructive criticism uncivil is potentially disruptive.” Even if you found my criticism of your edits, and simply your edits since I never commented anything personal, uncivil, you’re instructed to ignore them or give a gentle nudge that said editor is being disruptive, not center the entire discussion around that. Is reverting without discussion, refusing to continue discussion, or encouraging another user to edit war just so you can get them blocked civil? How about we move on from the accusations because they are simply unproductive and not advancing the discussion at all. The source literally says that the statues at mount nemrut are representations of the “Anatolian-Armenian religous milieu” and that the associations and names of the gods are closest to the Armenian traditions. I already commented on your sources, that none of them say there weren’t any Armenian gods, if due weight is what you’re concerned about I can find a multitude of other sources, just be clear that that’s what you want. As for Antiochus having Armenian ancestry I don’t know why you reverted as both the sources literally say he does, Canepa says he was proud of his “Armenian royal lineage” and the de gryuter source says he is descended from the “Armenian Orontids.” The sources says he has Armenian ancestry, point blank. He is literally descended from a King of Armenia. The Orontids being Iranian in origin doesn’t mean they weren’t Armenian, just like they mixed with the Persians, it is well know that they were heavily mixed with the native Armenian royal houses. But don’t take my word for it, the sources say he had Armenian ancestors, and they’re much more reliable than tertiary sources such as Iranica. Also your “veteran editors” comment was extremely unnecessary, what was the the purpose of that comment exactly? ] (]) 00:37, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

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Comments

Nemrut vs Nemrout

As far as I know, proper transliteration of the name to English is Nemrout, because both Armenian "ու" and Turkish "u" sounds must be written "ou" in English in order to be pronounced right. Because Nemrut could be pronounced like which is wrong. That's why Armenian names Անուշ or Լուսինե translated to English like Anoush and Lousine. Sincerely, --Norayr (talk) 09:04, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Why Doesn't the Article Mention Anything About Armenia

After doing research on Mount Nemrut from reliable sources, I came to the conclusion that Mount Nemrut was built by an Orontid king of Armenian descent who embraced Greek culture. That does not make Mount Nemrut Greek, and I am starting to get tired of Greeks hijacking the history of other civilizations. So back to the topic, It would be nice if somebody rewrote this article, and make it Armenian. If you want to have any evidence or anything to support the claim that Mount Nemrut is Armenian, buy a copy of the book Armenia: Cradle of Civilization, by David Marshall Lang, an English professor thats done extensive research on this topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.81.10.66 (talk) 21:30, 16 September 2007 (UTC)


Exactly!! I find it quite disturbing that in the whole article there is no mentioning of even ONE word of "Armenia", while there is mention of Macedonia . Ironically enough if you click on the name Antiochus I Theos of Commagene (the builder of the stone Gods) you'll find out he was a descendant of the Armenian Dynasty and was actually half Armenian (as it is often with Royalties they are mixed blood). But the fact that he is of the Armenian dynasty suggests his people were Armenian, so the Gods created in stone would represent their peoples believes!!! It's a shame this political propaganda has blinded people from historical truth. Armenian gods described without mentioning of Armenia!!! A SHAME !!!

monoliths

were these colossal statues originaly carved out of single stones? or were they made out of multiple stones?

thanks Zacherystaylor (talk) 04:21, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Tower of Babel, Nimrod, Nemrud-Nemrut

This article should incorporate a discussion of King Nimrod, and the possiblity of an etymological connection between Nimrod and Nemrut. cs (talk) 05:18, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

East-West-Conflict and Date

According to the german Version of this article, the Lionhoroscope is situated on the eastern terrace and it shows the date 14 July 109 BC, exactly 19:35 o'clock and this should be the date of the coronation of Mithridates I Callinicus - I'm now wondering which date this lion really shows -- Hartmann Schedel (talk) 23:14, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

What was the ancient name of it?

(Was it "Ankara"???) Böri (talk) 09:53, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Who did the beheading?

There is no mention of evidence pointing to those responsible for the vandalism of the figures (including the "beheading"), or at least a theory of who did it and when. If there is such a theory, can it be inserted? Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Isoruku (talkcontribs) 23:31, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I've never seen a clear theory documented, but might point out that the statues are not made out of one solid piece of rock, but rather are built out of half a dozen roughly cut stones each. The heads are one single piece, and of course had been sitting on top of the rest. The heads might have been brought down by human vandalism, but any earthquake or maybe even the influence of snow and freezing water could possible have done the job.Ilyacadiz (talk) 20:36, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Name

I see that my edit, adding the "Name" section, has been reverted. It's not that I care too much, but I guess I might have made some mistake and would be happy to learn what it was. User Bgwhite says: "Do not use illegal copies of Copright material as reference. Also, this is not an HTML page, use wikicode." I'm sorry if I mixed up codes. As for the copyright question, I can't really understand that: the only sentence I copied literally is this: "every natural and artistic work that exceeded normal sizes were attributed to him", clearly marked as a quote. The source as such is hardly illegal, being a scholarly contribution to an UNESCO newsletter. What exactly is the copyright violation? Thanks for any clarification. (Below the text I inserted and which was reverted). Ilyacadiz (talk) 22:05, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

It is not known why the mountain is called Nemrut and what is the connection, if any, with king Nimrod. There is no evidence that the name goes back to the Commagene kingdom . According to Turkish scholars, the figure of Nimrod as an evil king fond of idolatry is widespread in Islamic mythology, so "every natural and artistic work that exceeded normal sizes were attributed to him" and there are many other places in Anatolia and Syria named after Nimrod. The word "nemrut" has come to mean simply "grim, cruel" in Turkish.

Revert

@LouisAragon: Please actually read the sources before you revert, maybe take a look at WP:ONLYREVERT, if you have a concern about a well sourced good faith edit, it’s best to take it to the talk page before being quick to revert, that is not productive and can cause edit wars. The source is clear that it is talking about Armenian religous traditions: “The most spectacular arising from the Anatolian-Armenian religious milieu appear in the late hellenistic Commagene….” and “The Pantheon shows a specifically middle Iranian footprint, with the Iranian names of the gods corresponding most closely to the Parthian-Armenian pantheon” it also mentions the Armenian cult of Vahagn which is specifically Armenian. It’s also well established that the statues followed Greco-Iranian architectural traditions so I don’t know where you got that he was talking about architectural traditions when he literally said “in order to reinvigorate his ancestral religion.” TagaworShah (talk) 17:59, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: How about checking the talk page before reverting, you too could benefit from checking out WP:ONLYREVERT. You are clearly mistaken, how about you actually read the source and the quotes provided above. Canepa was unambiguous about the Pantheon including Armenian religious traditions, so how about instead of using your own assumptions you actually read the source, restore my edit per WP:RMV (it’s wikipedia policy), stop reverting disruptively, and actually discuss on the talk page, it exits for a reason.TagaworShah (talk) 19:26, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I already read the talk page, didn't make any difference. You still added information that was not mentioned in the source and ignored what the rest of the source said. No need to be hostile. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:33, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
@HistoryofIran: Another editor bring attention to your mistake and how you went against a wikipedia policy is not “hostile.” If anything it’s helping you be a better editor. Accusing other editors of hostility off the bat isn’t nice, especially when we’ve interacted positively before. If you read the source it literally says that the Pantheon includes Armenian gods such as Vahagn, the Armenians at that time period followed a syncretic version of Zoroastrianism but the Armenian versions of the gods had different associations. As explained by Canepa, the Persians never associated Verethragna with Heracles, that was done by the Armenians in the form of Vahagn which again as explained by Canepa, the gods in that pantheon most closely resembled the gods in the Parthian-Armenian pantheon. Please read the source from page 202-204, all of this is clearly explained there. Also, Misplaced Pages policy is unambiguous in how you should revert, if you already saw the talk page, you should’ve gave your reasoning there not by reverting, the edit summary is not the correct place for discussion. TagaworShah (talk) 19:46, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
So.. accusing me of being disruptive, mistaken, using my own assumptions, not paying attention, is not hostile? Gotcha. You keep mentioning 'Vahagn' as an Armenian god, but this what the very source says; "Of these Aramazd, Anahit, Vahagn, Mihr, and Tir are Iranian in origin," and "Tork’ did not enjoy the same importance as the other deities and appears to have been overshadowed by the Iranian gods Vahagn and Sandarmet (Mid. Pers. Spanda¯rmad)." Also, please quote the info included in the sources instead of simply writing it as how you perceive it, makes the conversation and researching the source much easier. At last but not least; "Antiochus I instituted a dynastic cult centering on a newly introduced pantheon of Greco-Iranian tutelary deities" no mention of "Armenian" or whatsoever. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:57, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
@HistoryofIran: Yeah, facts aren’t hostile because that’s what you’re doing, if you wanted a nicer response maybe don’t revert another editors contribution without good reason. All those gods were the Armenian version of the Zoroastrian gods, Canepa clearly states that the Persians never associated Vahagn with Heracles and that was a result of Armenian religious traditions. Cherry-picking a single sentence when literally the entire section is about Armenian influence on the Pantheon is not right. Here’s another quote “Although short lived, his monuments provide monumental proof of the power and importance of a resurgent, post-Seleucid Iranian kinship and Armenian religion’s role in its formation.” Canepa explicitly states that Armenian religious traditions had an important role in the Pantheon.TagaworShah (talk) 20:04, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
Not a fact, just your own opinion, which I rather have you keep to yourself (WP:ASPERSIONS and WP:NPA). So now showing a citation that you dont like is "cherry-picking"? It says "Greco-Iranian tutelary deities", not "Greco-Iranian-Armenian tutelary deities", which you are trying to add. Not to mention you are still at it with the WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour. You are yet to show any proof that actually supports your insertions, and are completely ignoring the citations that contradicted your claims, whilst yet still bashing me. Please ping me when you have something relevant to show, hopefully in a constructive manner. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:12, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
@HistoryofIran: Accusing other editors of battleground behavior for simply disagreeing with you and pointing out your mistakes is uncivil, as is reverting without discussion. None of the citations you provided disprove my claim, your WP:OR interpretations of the citations is in fact cherry-picking as the entire section disagrees with your claims. I have provided numerous quotes that explicitly disprove what you are claiming. Also Vahagn was an Armenian god, that is not disputed, whether he derived from the Iranian artagnes or simply associated with him however is disputed, according to this source “ Some scholars have tried to derive the name Vahagn from the Persian deity Veretrana or Veretranga . It has become increasingly clear , however , that he was a native deity , whose origins are in remote antiquity.”TagaworShah (talk) 20:25, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
So all your accusations are fact, your claims undisputed, etc etc, but when I say something its either uncivil, disruptive, mistaken, or cherry-picking? Lol. This is prime WP:GAMING. I'm outta here. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:28, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
@HistoryofIran: So you’re just going to ignore all my points and instead accuse me of trying to game the system?? I’d rather not take this to ANI and resolve this on the talk page here, so i’d advise you to not refuse discussion and actually consider my points instead of accusing me of bad faith in order to ignore everything i’m saying.TagaworShah (talk) 20:35, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
What points? You're yet to show proof from the source that the pantheon was an Armenian one as well, completely ignoring the fact that Canepa solely refers it to as 'Greco-Iranian'. What discussion? You insulting me for 2 hours straight is not a discussion. All this time we have been talking about what is mentioned in one specific source; however, when said source clearly contradicted your claims, you went to talk about a source (whose statement is WP:UNDUE anyways) that was actually in favour of half your claims. You can't combine two sources to make one certain statement, that is WP:OR. Canepa calls Vahagn an Iranian god, and the pantheon a Greco-Iranian one, and that's an actual fact. Anyways, I can play this game too, as the vast majority of sources call this pantheon Greek/Iranian. Ready, set, go;
"It is Antiochos I who was mainly responsible for the establishment of an intriguing form of Greco-lranian religious idiosyncrasy." - p 13, Shayegan, M. Rahim (2016). "The Arsacids and Commagene"
"The rulers of Commagene, despite their Greek names, practised an Iranian dynastic cult that incorporated Ahuramazda, Mithras and Verethragna, equated with Zeus, Apollo-Helios-Hermes, and Heracles, respectively." p 436, Ball, Warwick (2002). Rome in the East: The Transformation of an Empire
"The most obvious example of this development is of course the iconographical and ideological program at Nemrut Dağı (first century BCE), where Avestan deities were explicitly syncretized with Greek ones to create a dynastic identity for a Macedonian-Iranian local ruler: Antiochos I of Commagene, who rather pretentiously claimed both the Seleucid and Achaemenid heritage, including the imperial title of Great King that was used by both dynasties..." p 214, Strootman, Rolf (2020). "Hellenism and Persianism in Iran"
"The richest materials for equations between Iranian and Greek divinites are the inscriptions from the royal cult at Commagene. Here we find three idenfications of Iranian divinities; Ahura Mazda and Zeus; Mithra and Apollo, Helios and Hermes; Verethraghna and Heracles and Ares." p 32, Traditions of the Magi: Zoroastrianism in Greek and Latin Literature
"The religious syncretism associated with the Commagenian dynasty, combining Greek and Iranian elements, is a phenomenon linked exclusively to king Antiochus I (c. 69–36 BCE)." - p 1, Commagenian, Greco-Iranian Religious Syncretism
"The consequences of these differences become obvious in the three Iranian gods— Oromasdes, Mithras, and Artagnes—who merged with the Greek gods in the theocrasies described above. - NEMRUD DAĞI
"As an instrumental part of this, Antiochus I instituted a dynastic cult centering on a newly introduced pantheon of Greco-Iranian tutelary deities, which were worshipped at specially designed sanctuaries constructed across his kingdom" p 202, The Iranian Expanse: Transforming Royal Identity Through Architecture, Landscape, and the Built Environment, 550 BCE–642 CE
"The doctrinal and ethical elements in the cult, which gave it this depth, appear, as we have seen, to be essentially Zoroastrian; and this points to the Orontids of Commagene having remained loyal to their ancestral faith (in its Zurvanite form) down to the time of Antiochus' father, Mithradates Kallinikos." ".....It was, presumably, through her that Antiochus learnt from boyhood to worship Greek gods as well as Iranian yazatas" - p 348, A History of Zoroastrianism, Zoroastrianism under Macedonian and Roman Rule
Also, ANI is a place for reporting users and such, not disputes. Even if it was, taking the issue there is not gonna make any difference when two veterans users already have disagreed and reverted your edits. Feel free to take the discussion over there though. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:40, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
@HistoryofIran: LOL insulting you?? I never said anything about you personally just about your edits and editing behavior. It’s important to learn not to take those things personally. ANI is where you go when editors refuse discussion and continue reverting, which i’m sure you’d do had I reverted back as per WP:RMV. Also, two “veteran editors?” having edited on Misplaced Pages for a longer time does not make you right in a discussion, let’s get that straight. I didn’t synthesize anything, Canepa was the one who said the association with Vahagn to Heracles was an Armenian tradition, I simply gave an additional source backing that up. In addition, just because other sources do not bring something up doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be included, I can find a multitude of sources which include Armenian gods as well if you wish, but I think we can agree Canepa is a reliable enough source as it is. If you have concerns about due weight, just say that and i’ll provide additional sources but you saying that my citation doesn’t back up my claim is simply wrong. Again he literally says “ “Although short lived, his monuments provide monumental proof of the power and importance of a resurgent, post-Seleucid Iranian kinship and Armenian religion’s role in its formation.”TagaworShah (talk) 00:12, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
If you think you are so right, then do please keep it up so I can report you to WP:ANI, then we can let an admin be the judge of that. I never said that being a veteran user makes me right in a discussion, please don't put words in my mouth. There is nothing wrong with refusing to discuss further when one of the participants is unable to follow core policies such as WP:CIVIL, I'm sure the people at ANI will tell you the same. Still doesn't say that the pantheon was also Armenian, as Canepa already called it Greco-Iranian, what do you think he meant by the latter word? And what do you think of those sources I posted? --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:20, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
@HistoryofIran: As per Misplaced Pages policy, “To call constructive criticism uncivil is potentially disruptive.” Even if you found my criticism of your edits, and simply your edits since I never commented anything personal, uncivil, you’re instructed to ignore them or give a gentle nudge that said editor is being disruptive, not center the entire discussion around that. Is reverting without discussion, refusing to continue discussion, or encouraging another user to edit war just so you can get them blocked civil? How about we move on from the accusations because they are simply unproductive and not advancing the discussion at all. The source literally says that the statues at mount nemrut are representations of the “Anatolian-Armenian religous milieu” and that the associations and names of the gods are closest to the Armenian traditions. I already commented on your sources, that none of them say there weren’t any Armenian gods, if due weight is what you’re concerned about I can find a multitude of other sources, just be clear that that’s what you want. As for Antiochus having Armenian ancestry I don’t know why you reverted as both the sources literally say he does, Canepa says he was proud of his “Armenian royal lineage” and the de gryuter source says he is descended from the “Armenian Orontids.” The sources says he has Armenian ancestry, point blank. He is literally descended from a King of Armenia. The Orontids being Iranian in origin doesn’t mean they weren’t Armenian, just like they mixed with the Persians, it is well know that they were heavily mixed with the native Armenian royal houses. But don’t take my word for it, the sources say he had Armenian ancestors, and they’re much more reliable than tertiary sources such as Iranica. Also your “veteran editors” comment was extremely unnecessary, what was the the purpose of that comment exactly? TagaworShah (talk) 00:37, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
  1. <a href="http://archweb.metu.edu.tr/uploads/files/NSG%20yayinlar/122%20Chapter%20in%20a%20Book%20Nat/2013%20Mount%20Nemrut%20Tumulus_UNESCO%20TMK_Chapter%20in%20BOOK%20Nat_NSG.pdf> Neriman Şahın Güçhan, Nemrut Dağ, Unesco World Heritage in Turkey</a>
  2. Osman Hamdi, “Le Tumulus de Nemroud Dagh”, 1987. Quoted in <a href="http://archweb.metu.edu.tr/uploads/files/NSG%20yayinlar/122%20Chapter%20in%20a%20Book%20Nat/2013%20Mount%20Nemrut%20Tumulus_UNESCO%20TMK_Chapter%20in%20BOOK%20Nat_NSG.pdf> Neriman Şahın Güçhan, Nemrut Dağ, Unesco World Heritage in Turkey</a>
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