| Revision as of 18:04, 29 November 2021 editAustronesier (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers26,196 edits →Downcasing "Province": Ok, that's answered :)← Previous edit | Revision as of 20:58, 29 November 2021 edit undoDicklyon (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Rollbackers477,084 edits →Downcasing "Province"Next edit → | ||
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| ::That's why I'm asking. Agree "no overarching need to enforce a manufactured consistency on article titles of different subject areas". Tell us about Thailand (I only sampled one province there, and don't recall which). ] (]) 17:03, 29 November 2021 (UTC) | ::That's why I'm asking. Agree "no overarching need to enforce a manufactured consistency on article titles of different subject areas". Tell us about Thailand (I only sampled one province there, and don't recall which). ] (]) 17:03, 29 November 2021 (UTC) | ||
| :::While the word ''province'' is often omitted when the context is clear, the full names are regarded as specific proper nouns, or at least the original Thai names and their direct romanisations are. This is reflected by the ]'s directory of proper nouns, which lists each of the provinces with their prefixes, i.e. "Changwat Krabi". As ''province'' is the direct translation for the Thai term ''changwat'', I think translated names should be treated the same way. While sources are inconsistent, Google Ngrams show capital ''Province'' to have long been much more common in most cases, though the gap does appear to be closing. Recent news sources appear to prefer decapitalising the term, and there is of course room for debate. But any renaming proposal for Thai provinces must be considered together with all the district and subdistrict articles, lest a larger inconsistency be created among Thailand's administrative divisions instead. --] (]) 18:00, 29 November 2021 (UTC) | :::While the word ''province'' is often omitted when the context is clear, the full names are regarded as specific proper nouns, or at least the original Thai names and their direct romanisations are. This is reflected by the ]'s directory of proper nouns, which lists each of the provinces with their prefixes, i.e. "Changwat Krabi". As ''province'' is the direct translation for the Thai term ''changwat'', I think translated names should be treated the same way. While sources are inconsistent, Google Ngrams show capital ''Province'' to have long been much more common in most cases, though the gap does appear to be closing. Recent news sources appear to prefer decapitalising the term, and there is of course room for debate. But any renaming proposal for Thai provinces must be considered together with all the district and subdistrict articles, lest a larger inconsistency be created among Thailand's administrative divisions instead. --] (]) 18:00, 29 November 2021 (UTC) | ||
| ::::Yes, I understand that some will want to cap "Province" as a direct translation of Changwat. But the source you linked does not do so, and most sources (per my estimate) also don't cap it. The caps we see in books, news, etc., are most often from title-case things like article titles and table entries and headings, not use in sentences, which is what we go by, per ]. It's consistently lowercase, at these sites, for example: tourismthailand.org, renown-travel.com, statoids.com, cnn.com, time.com, usnews.com, smartraveller.gov.au, and bangkokpost.com. And consistently capped at many fewer as far as I can find (lonelyplanet.com and healthqual.ucsf.edu). ] (]) 20:57, 29 November 2021 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{ec}}The pattern for most or all provinces of Thailand is ], with a corresponding article ] for its administrative capital. Looking at it, "Province" serves as a disambiguator here and should in theory be downcased. Unless the majority of sources treat "Province" as part of the name and capitalize it. <s>What about the names in Thai? Is จังหวัด an integral part of the name, or also just an disambiguator?</s> | :::{{ec}}The pattern for most or all provinces of Thailand is ], with a corresponding article ] for its administrative capital. Looking at it, "Province" serves as a disambiguator here and should in theory be downcased. Unless the majority of sources treat "Province" as part of the name and capitalize it. <s>What about the names in Thai? Is จังหวัด an integral part of the name, or also just an disambiguator?</s> | ||
| :::Just for fun, I have looked up four arbitrarily selected provinces in Google Books Ngram Viewer: , , , . Not really encouraging... –] (]) 18:03, 29 November 2021 (UTC) | :::Just for fun, I have looked up four arbitrarily selected provinces in Google Books Ngram Viewer: , , , . Not really encouraging... –] (]) 18:03, 29 November 2021 (UTC) | ||
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RfC on scope of wet market article
Hi, there is a new RfC here on whether the scope of the article wet market should include those outside of Southeast/East Asia. Any participation is welcome! — MarkH21 21:15, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
RfCs on MOS:NOTUSA and lead paragraph wording for Battle of Huế
Hi! There are two RfCs open about wording in the article Battle of Huế, located at its talk page here and here. Any participation is welcome! — MarkH21 08:22, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
Requesting expansion and update edit support
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This has been posted to this forum since, one of article review suggested to have more diverse editor participation to have more inclusive, neutral and balanced worldview
I hope and request some editors from this forum too proactively and constructively participate in updating and expanding of article Islamic advice literature
Thanks, warm regards and greetings
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One of your project's articles has been selected for improvement!
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One of your project's articles has been selected for improvement!
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Help needed: can you identify where these people are from?
Please see the discussion here. 23:29, 2 November 2021 (UTC) Ypna (talk) 23:29, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
Discussion at Talk:Oriental studies § Proposed merge of Asian studies with Oriental studies
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Oriental studies § Proposed merge of Asian studies with Oriental studies. {{u|Sdkb}} 18:13, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
Downcasing "Province"
Per discussions, we downcased "Province" to "province" in all the Category:Provinces of Vietnam articles and related. But so far not in Category:Provinces of Laos or Category:Provinces of Cambodia or Category:Provinces of Thailand, which do appear to follow the same pattern in sources (capped only half the time, and often without province, as it's not part of the proper name). So, any objection to going ahead and doing the same with these? Any other countries in Southeast Asia to include? Dicklyon (talk) 17:38, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
- For the Philippines and Indonesia, this does not apply, since we leave the redundant "province" completely out (provinces are rarely named after their capital), following usage in English-language reliable sources. The only exception is Mountain Province where capitalized "Province" is an integral part of the proper name in Filipino and English). –Austronesier (talk) 18:32, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
- Agreed. Dicklyon (talk) 19:53, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, there is objection, for Thailand at least. This needs to be separately discussed for each country, as they're covered differently in reliable sources. There's no overarching need to enforce a manufactured consistency on article titles of different subject areas. --Paul_012 (talk) 07:58, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- That's why I'm asking. Agree "no overarching need to enforce a manufactured consistency on article titles of different subject areas". Tell us about Thailand (I only sampled one province there, and don't recall which). Dicklyon (talk) 17:03, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- While the word province is often omitted when the context is clear, the full names are regarded as specific proper nouns, or at least the original Thai names and their direct romanisations are. This is reflected by the Royal Society's directory of proper nouns, which lists each of the provinces with their prefixes, i.e. "Changwat Krabi". As province is the direct translation for the Thai term changwat, I think translated names should be treated the same way. While sources are inconsistent, Google Ngrams show capital Province to have long been much more common in most cases, though the gap does appear to be closing. Recent news sources appear to prefer decapitalising the term, and there is of course room for debate. But any renaming proposal for Thai provinces must be considered together with all the district and subdistrict articles, lest a larger inconsistency be created among Thailand's administrative divisions instead. --Paul_012 (talk) 18:00, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, I understand that some will want to cap "Province" as a direct translation of Changwat. But the source you linked does not do so, and most sources (per my estimate) also don't cap it. The caps we see in books, news, etc., are most often from title-case things like article titles and table entries and headings, not use in sentences, which is what we go by, per MOS:CAPS. It's consistently lowercase, at these sites, for example: tourismthailand.org, renown-travel.com, statoids.com, cnn.com, time.com, usnews.com, smartraveller.gov.au, and bangkokpost.com. And consistently capped at many fewer as far as I can find (lonelyplanet.com and healthqual.ucsf.edu). Dicklyon (talk) 20:57, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)The pattern for most or all provinces of Thailand is Foo Province, with a corresponding article Foo for its administrative capital. Looking at it, "Province" serves as a disambiguator here and should in theory be downcased. Unless the majority of sources treat "Province" as part of the name and capitalize it.
What about the names in Thai? Is จังหวัด an integral part of the name, or also just an disambiguator? - Just for fun, I have looked up four arbitrarily selected provinces in Google Books Ngram Viewer: Phetchaburi, Chiang Mai, Nonthaburi, Satun. Not really encouraging... –Austronesier (talk) 18:03, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- While the word province is often omitted when the context is clear, the full names are regarded as specific proper nouns, or at least the original Thai names and their direct romanisations are. This is reflected by the Royal Society's directory of proper nouns, which lists each of the provinces with their prefixes, i.e. "Changwat Krabi". As province is the direct translation for the Thai term changwat, I think translated names should be treated the same way. While sources are inconsistent, Google Ngrams show capital Province to have long been much more common in most cases, though the gap does appear to be closing. Recent news sources appear to prefer decapitalising the term, and there is of course room for debate. But any renaming proposal for Thai provinces must be considered together with all the district and subdistrict articles, lest a larger inconsistency be created among Thailand's administrative divisions instead. --Paul_012 (talk) 18:00, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- That's why I'm asking. Agree "no overarching need to enforce a manufactured consistency on article titles of different subject areas". Tell us about Thailand (I only sampled one province there, and don't recall which). Dicklyon (talk) 17:03, 29 November 2021 (UTC)