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Moving forward: Deferring GENSEX cases to AE

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Should the community encourage or require GENSEX cases to be brought at AE, or make no change? 18:26, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Potential encouragement ("soft") and requirement ("hard") wordings are given below; these are not the only wordings that could be used.

• Soft: Something like Reports primarily involving gender-related disputes or controversies are usually best-suited to Arbitration enforcement (AE), except when the matter is very straightforward or when AE is unavailable for procedural reasons (for instance, a requested sanction exceeds AE's authority, or a party against whom sanctions are sought is not aware). Beyond these two exceptions, any uninvolved administrator may, at their discretion and at any time, close an AN or AN/I discussion in this topic area in favor of review at AE; if the filer would not be able to start the thread, the admin should do so for them.
• Hard: Something like Reports primarily involving gender-related disputes or controversies, other than truly unambiguous disruption, should be filed at Arbitration enforcement (AE) unless there is a procedural reason that AE would not be suitable (for instance, a requested sanction exceeds AE's authority, or a party against whom sanctions are sought is not aware). Any uninvolved editor may speedily close a thread brought in contravention of this rule, directing the filer to AE; if the filer would not be able to start the thread, the closer should do so for them

-- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 18:26, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• Nom statement : So, whatever the outcome of the above, it's clear that the thread was a shitshow. And the Newimpartial thread was a shitshow. In fact every GENSEX thread I can recall at AN(I) since I resumed editing 2 years ago has been a shitshow, apart from slam-dunk "new user using slurs"–type reports.We have a venue for this. It is called Misplaced Pages:Arbitration enforcement. It avoids basically all of the BS we see in these kinds of contentious threads. The vast majority of AN(I) GENSEX discussions fall within concurrent AE jurisdiction, especially now that WP:AC/CT has loosened the definition of sanction awareness. There is no reason that we need to continue hearing these cases at AN(I) if we don't want to... and does anyone actually want to?I've had this idea bouncing around my head the past week and it's just seemed more and more reasonable as things have progressed, especially as we've seen difficulties in finding admins willing to close these threads. Thoughts? -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 18:26, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
• I would oppose, as I dislike the precedent this would set - AE and ArbCom are there to supplement, not replace, the self-management of the broader community. BilledMammal (talk) 18:32, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  I would also suggest that you convert this to an WP:RFC, as editors have begun to !vote on it. BilledMammal (talk) 18:39, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  I mean this completely sincerely: if someone in the community thinks the community can self-manage a topic area that is under CT, I would encourage them to go to WP:ARCA and to ask us to revoke the Contentious Topic designation for that topic area. We should not have the extraordinary grant of power, which is ArbCom delegating its broad authority directly to admins, is the community can handle it. I have repeatedly supported ways to eliminate areas from the CT/DS designation or to narrow their scope (see AP2) precisely because I think the community should handle what it can. So if something is a designated CT it means to me that the community isn't, at this time, able to self-manage that topic area and if the community actually is able to self-manage we need to restore the area to normal rules for admins and editors. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:49, 4 March 2023 (UTC) Edit: I should note I was making a general point here about any given CT. I think there are reasons to do and not to do this proposal of Tamzin's so am not expressing an opinion on that. Merely responding to Billed Mammal's thinking of how CT exists with-in dispute resolution. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:58, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  I might do that for some of the more obscure CT's, but to clarify my point here wasn't that I think that the community can fully self-manage this topic area, but that the community can partially self-manage every topic area that is under CT, and I don't want to set the precedent that they can't. BilledMammal (talk) 19:08, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  This goes back to our discussion last September. I appreciate your viewpoint that the community has failed to manage disputes in areas formally identified as contentious topics. Nonetheless, I think the arbitration enforcement system will be overloaded if every dispute is just passed up the chain automatically. I think editors need to exercise judgement and continue to try to handle issues at the lowest level possible. isaacl (talk) 22:57, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• Support hard - The Newimpartial and Tranarchist threads were among the worst things I've seen on this site when it comes to wiki drama. No need to have such a thing when AE can do it cleaner and more efficiently. I also believe this would lead to better results for everyone involved since we won't have involved users contributing, which undermines the integrity of consensus imo. Iamreallygoodatcheckers 18:35, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

My reservations that an admin panel at AE cannot handle certain types of disruption that require topic familiarity that skirts the edge of what we consider WP:INVOLVED aside, I'm somewhat in favour of the hard proposal, but either could work for me.

The biggest technical hurdle I see for making AE the primary/sole noticeboard for this would be the requirement that AE requires autoconfirmed before you can post a thread without it being removed. That obviously rules out editors with less than 10 edits over 4 days, but also rules out IP editors. If this does go ahead, a common sense exception for WP:MEAT might need to be made so that any uninvolved editor/admin, at their discretion can move/re-post the thread at AE on behalf of the non-autoconfirmed editor, with the checks and balances that the editor moving the discussion takes some responsibility for the move. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:36, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

@Sideswipe9th: In my mind, the AE autoconfirmed requirement would fall under "unavailable for procedural reasons". So would clear lack of awareness or requests for sanctions that exceed AE's powers (most notably sitebans). If that should be clearer in either proposed wording, I'm happy to clarify. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 18:39, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Aah yeah. If you do follow through with BilledMammal's suggestion above of converting this to an RfC, I would suggest clarifying that in the wording before making it a RfC. Otherwise, unless this side discussion becomes a monster thread of its own, it's probably fine just being clarified in these replies for now. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:48, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• Weak Oppose. There are cases when reports can involve multiple issues. If only one of those issues is editing in GENSEX, it should not be the case that we are more or less requiring this sort of stuff to be sent to WP:AE. Reports involving gender-related disputes or controversies are usually best-suited to Arbitration enforcement is overly broad, even in the soft version.WP:AE can also be really difficult when trying to demonstrate issues that draw evidence from a large number of diffs (there's a hard cap on 20 diffs). I agree that WP:ANI has problems when it comes to these sorts of disputes inasmuch as it draws a lot of tangentially involved people to these discussions, but I do think that the filer should be able to elect to go to WP:ANI if they think that the open-ended format of the noticeboard will allow them to communicate their concerns more clearly to the community. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 18:48, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  In light of Tamzin's amending of the RfC prompt above, I'm amending my !vote for relevance. I still don't like the phrasing close an AN or AN/I discussion in this topic area (I'd prefer something like close an AN or AN/I discussion about disputes primarily involving conduct in WP:GENSEX so as to be extremely explicit regarding when admins can and cannot close ANI discussions), so I remain weakly opposed at this time. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 19:10, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• For what its worth, as I read through the thread, I did think "much of this would have been avoided had this been transferred to, or originally filed at, AE." CaptainEek ⚓ 18:49, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
• Support, undecided on variant. It's a CT for a reason; using CT procedures for a CT is a nobrainer. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 18:54, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  Question: if this is becoming an RfC, where is the text actually proposed to be added? ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 18:57, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  I imagine this could work as a standard community-authorized general sanction. It doesn't need to go into policy anywhere. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 18:59, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  Why would it be a general sanction? Why is it not just a noticeboard procedural rule along the liens of "you must notify someone you're reporting"? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:34, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  Specifically, support the soft variant. "Truly unambiguous" bothers me on the harder variant, thinking of cases like the recent Scapulus, who was handled swiftly at ANI, but where some editors did see it fit to show up later to complain about freeze peach. Clearly this was addressed well at ANI, but "truly unambiguous" is at least not unambiguous in this case. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 19:18, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  I wrestled a lot with that wording (and the closer can always take note of general support for one option or the other, but not for some specific wording, and implement accordingly). But to explain my reasoning, the core challenge is that there have been a lot of cases—both with editors seen as anti-trans and those seen as pro-trans—where someone has felt "Surely this is blatant disruption, easy indef", and it's turned into days or weeks of nonsense. So I acknowledge that "truly unambiguous" is really strong wording, but it's the best shorthand I could think of for "Disruption that you, ideally as an experienced user familiar with what is and isn't considered disruptive in GENSEX, know will lead to a summary indef." Common sense would, of course, continue to govern either of these options, and AE would always have its inherent authority to reject a case, thereby making itself procedurally unavailable and allowing AN(I) to proceed. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 19:42, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  SnowRise brings up another point I didn't notice, that according to the hard option, any uninvolved editor could close a thread they deem should be at AE. I think this is an exceptionally bad idea. This means that even in a case where admins are unanimous that some behaviour is unacceptable, any sufficiently out-of-touch editor could declare a case not unambiguous enough and complicate the process excessively. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 20:05, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  Update after further reflection: I think both variants risk curtailing the community's ability to self-govern and adapt by consensus in this area. I do think the idea has merit but allowing a move to be forced by either an individual admin or any editor is harmful, and I fear leaving everything up to AE admins could threaten our ability to respond flexibly to various kinds of disruption. I definitely agree that threads about more long-standing editors turn into huge messes on ANI and probably would do better at AE, but I don't think either of these proposals is the right way. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 21:29, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

• Support hard As I mentioned above, (... it appears that is now simple for editors with a certain POV ... to remove other editors who oppose them from contentious areas without using the correct venue, which would be AE) when these discussions end up with the community they turn into the inevitable shitshows that this one and the NewImpartial one have been. We simply need to remove them from this arena, because otherwise the next one will be exactly the same. Black Kite (talk) 18:56, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
• Converted to RfC per comments above, with some tweaks to wording per @Sideswipe9th and Red-tailed hawk. More generally, I stress that the wording above is just two ideas of how to do this. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 19:01, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
• Support with a preference for the hard variant, as I think the future will be like the past. I can appreciate the potential problem that a report can cross over multiple issues, but experience leads me to think that the most disaster-prone issue within such a report will dominate. A report that includes both a GENSEX issue and, say, edit-warring over WP:CITEVAR will become a trainwreck over the former. XOR'easter (talk) 19:10, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
• Comment I don't know what the solution is. This topic is one of several prime candidates for WP:ADVOCACY, WP:BATTLEGROUND, WP:SPA, WP:CIVIL, WP:PUSH, WP:SOCK, WP:MEAT and WP:NOTHERE. I don't like advocacy editing, but equally well we may need a balance of editors who have strong POVs to bring in-depth knowledge to controversial articles. It can't be allowed to be beneficial to WP:WIKILAWYER and gang up on opponents or we will get more SPAs and non-autoconfirmed users pig piling on culture war enemies. From what I have seen the normal ANI process works pretty well, and the admins manage to separate behavioral issues from content. The whole !vote thing is problematic because as we see a big deal is made of distilling it down to numbers rather than the much-touted abstract "consensus". Whatever the solution, I think this topic and a few others like it stand to test Misplaced Pages's processes for dealing with problem editors. —DIYeditor (talk) 19:12, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
• Immensely strong oppose. First off, this is a procedurally invalid proposal, even with the addition of the RfC tag: enforceable rules regarding disruption (particularly those with such broad implications for arresting disruption across a vast swath of articles) cannot be made by the admin regulars of AN alone, supplemented merely by the editors already involved in this singular dispute and a handful of others brought in by a FRS notice. If you want create binding guidelines on this project, you need to use the WP:PROPOSAL process: identify the WP:PAG you want to alter (or suggest a new standalone policy namespace), and then host a discussion on that policy's talk page with a notice at VPP, or just host the discussion at the Village Pump to begin. AN is absolutely not the right (indeed, is arguably the worst) forum to be suggesting new policy. If this should go further rather than being swiftly shot down, the discussion needs to be moved.

Second, putting aside the procedural considerations, I think the proposal (good faith though it obviously is) is a non-starter on its merits as well. Mind you, I think the present case giving rise to this proposal probably is an instance of a case that arguably should have gone to AE. But creating a mandate that all behavioural concerns arising out of GENSEX topics go to AE, aside from being inconsistent with how we handle every other WP:CTOP (our new handle for discretionary sanctions for those unfamiliar) issue, is clearly an unworkable proposition under our current community schema for arresting disruptive behaviour--and the particular wording proposed here (in both variants) only further invites confusion and difficulty. Without meaning offense to Tamzin, it's the worst kind of rule cruft where the community clearly needs some degree of flexibility and redundancy. While I do believe that CTOP should be invoked more liberally in edge cases to bring matters to AE (as a more streamlined process less amenable to pile-on by biased/involved parties) ANI has an absolutely vital role in allowing the community to review and correct long-term behavioural concerns in a way that this overbroad proposal would clearly and significantly abrogate, for limited gain.

Under this suggestion, any behavioural issue imputing the GENSEX topic area would be effectively stripped out of the hands of the broader community to impose CBANs or otherwise address disruption, and those decisions held in reserve for editors with a high level of permissions at AE. While I reiterate that this would actually be a good thing in a non-trivial number of cases, as we should use AE more extensively than we do for CTOP issues, a firm requirement directing all disruption involving GENSEX to AE is clearly overkill that would significantly reduce the broader community's ability to adjudicate longterm issues and otherwise jam-up our ability to effectively arrest disruption. Further, encouraging rank and file editors to start closing down ANI discussions that touch upon certain topic areas (in a way that would currently be treated as clear disruption itself) would be ripe for abuse: anybody who's spent any degree of time at ANI can predict just how flexible a vast number of editors will be with judging themselves as "uninvolved" in the dispute: the technical excuse that they didn't participate in the immediate dispute would still permits editors who are heavily involved in the issues in general (or who have beef with the filer, or are regular defenders of someone who comes to ANI again and again) to thwart oversight by invoking this rule.

Honestly, I could go on for quite a while: there are so many potential knock-on effects to this proposal which would needlessly complicate addressing user conduct in this topic area, and so many ways that it's one-size-fits-all approach does not connect with our current otherwise context-sensitive (and somewhat overlapping, as a good thing) remit of different forums for addressing disruption. But the overarching concern is that it drastically reduces the community's options for little practical gain, pulls oversight for determinations that ultimately should fall into the broader community's hands on occasion, and would introduce all kinds of opportunities for gamesmanship (ostensibly the very thing it comes to address). I just think it's a very poorly considered proposal. But again, if nothing else, it needs to be considered by the community at large in an appropriate forum, which AN decidedly is not. SnowRise 19:55, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't really understand your procedural objection, Snow Rise. This proposes rules that would apply only to WP:AN and WP:AN/I. There's not even any change in how AE would operate, other than possibly getting more GENSEX cases than before. This is a vastly less impactful change than, say, placing WP:GS/RUSUKR under an extendedconfirmed restriction, which was handled by a simple thread at AN/I. I don't even think an RfC was strictly required here, but I'm following the path of least resistance.As to the various negative effects you're worried about, I guess I'll focus on one thing you've said: ANI has an absolutely vital role in allowing the community to review and correct long-term behavioural concerns. Can you point to evidence of this actually being the case in the GENSEX area? In GENSEX AN/I threads I've been involved in, even when there's been some ultimate consensus, I really can't think of any that I would say show healthy self-governance. This strongly negative view of AN/I's handling of GENSEX issues is shared by, as of this comment, every commenter in this thread who substantially edits in the topic area, including ones who often sharply differ on content matters. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 20:10, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi Tamzin: I'm going to divide my responses between two posts, since these are semi-discrete issues, in order to faciliate any response and further discussion that may result:

• Regarding the procedural/placement issue, the mere fact that this change would pertain to how ANI operates hardly means that it will impact only the regular (mostly admin) editors at AN--let alone that it would only be of interest to this highly select segment of the community. This change would impact a vast number of editors working accross countless articles who may have recourse to bring behavioural concerns to the community at ANI. For that matter, considering almost every single hypothetical future thread that this proposal would seek to invalidate would typically have landed at ANI, rather than AN, placing it here rarifies the air even further, in terms of the regular editors who are likely to see it based on it's placement.

This is clearly not an "AN/I only" issue: it very obviously touches upon fundamental authority, consensus process of, and decision making generally reserved to the community at large (as opposed to the administrative corps in particular) and the proposal would heavily impact the community's ability to address long-term disruption in a particular topic area, relative to how literally all others operate. Such a discussion should take place in a cnetralized and highly visible community space, not just within site of a handful of admins, those already connected to a singular dispute, and handful of others pulled in via a typical FRS. At an absolute minimum you should make a posting a notice about this discussion at the village Pump and making sure the discussion is on the WP:CD ticker. And frankly, I just strongly recommend you move the entire discussion to VP itself. Otherwise, even if you get a consensus for the proposal here, you are just begging for an uproar afterwards, with accusations of an admin power grab, however good faith the intention here. I mean, if nothing else, what is the good-faith, community-respectful argument against moving this to a place where the community at large is more likely to be able to be aware of and weigh in on it? SnowRise 21:53, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

On the proposal impacting on the "community's ability to address long-term disruption in a particular topic area", how would you respond to the point raised above by Barkeep49 that I'd like to build upon in the next paragraph. Not sure if this should be a reply to your first or second point however, if you feel that it's better answered in response to the second, feel free to move this comment as a reply to your second point.

Because prior disruption in this content area has required significant ArbCom intervention, and the committee's remit is to operate on serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve, has the community already not demonstrated a significant inability to address long-term disruption in this content area? Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:06, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

No, with all due respect to Barkeep, that is a conclusion I believe is unsupported by compelling evidence, and certainly not one I am aware of ever having been endorsed by the community or by ArbCom in particular. WP:Contentious topics are not labelled as such because the community has a laisez-faire attitude towards them or has fundamentally failed to try to address them, or is per se incapable of doing so. Rather these are topics that are inherently divisive in the broader social systems of our societies at large, and thus such biases and conflicts are simply more easily imported into this project when topics are discussed/edit upon here, relative to some others, for completely obvious reasons. None of that militates for the conclusion that the broader community and our long-established rules and processes do not have a central role to play in addressing a heightened level of disruption in such areas--either as a general matter or, certainly, in terms of an express point of community consensus that has ever been adopted on this project. When we say "contentious topic" we mean "contentious topic", not "a topic the general community does not have a role in regulating". That's a massive non-sequitor and leap in logic, in my opinion.

CTOP (and DS before it) exists merely to grant relaxed use of certain tools in areas where rapid response to disruption is more likely to be needed, not to declare the rest of the community as irrelevant to such a fundamental function: if anything, the existence of a CTOP determination for a particular topic increases the likelihood the broader community may have to occasionally intervene directly concerning disruption connected with that topic, not that it should be forbidden access to it's normal role in that process: that's an incredibly counter-intuitive read on the purpose of CTOP in my opinion, and certainly not captured anywhere in the policy pages that describe those processes.

And again, I say this while being broadly supportive of an hierarchy and an important division of labor running adjacent to the community->admin corps->ArbCom->WMF ladder. But this particular proposal would take a particular topic area and isolate it more or less entirely from established non-admin community tools and norms for expressing consensus on problematic behaviour, and taking consensus action accordingly. I just don't see how that can be justified on the mere basis that this is a highly divisive subject matter: so are countless other topics, including (by definition) every other WP:CTOP subject. Are we going to follow suit for each of those topic areas and essentially hand the entirety of our decision-making apparatus on behavioural issues surrounding contentious topics to the administrative corps alone? I very much hope not: I think it would be an immensely detrimental development in the history of this project. Regardless, such a massive change to the status-quo with such significant impacts upon how we conduct this project and hold eachother accountable to community standards absolutely must be discussed with the fullest possible involvement of the community at large, not just here in the hallowed halls of AN. SnowRise 23:37, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

On the conclusion from Barkeep I've built upon, the Arbitration policy that I linked to before, and was ratified by the community, does pretty clearly state that the Committee's remit is to handle content areas that the community has been unable to resolve.

WP:Contentious topics are not labelled as such because the community has a laisez-faire attitude towards them or has fundamentally failed to try to address them,...Rather these are topics that are inherently divisive in the broader social systems of our societies at large, and thus such biases and conflicts are simply more easily imported into this project when topics are discussed/edit upon here Those two things aren't necessarily separate. Yes some of the CTOP topics are inherently divisive in broader social systems off-wiki, but because of that many of them are also topics that the community has historically had an inability to address. Some exceptions to this apply, for example while the Shakespeare authorship question is a CTOP area, outside of Shakespearean scholars and literary historians it's not really a topic that's divisive in a broader social context. As would the very Misplaced Pages specific Manual of Style and Article titles and BLP areas.

Let me put it to you another way. If was the community who had authorised the sanctions, even if ultimately the end result of the AE and wider discretionary powers for admins is the same, that would have been a clear demonstration that the community was able to handle disruption. However because this required an ArbCom case to be put in place, that alone is a pretty strong indicator to me that this is a content area that the community, for whatever reason, is unable to handle. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:46, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

I think I've left myself open to being misconstrued by not being as clear as I could and should have been and so that has happened in this discussion. What I have said is that the community cannot self-manage Contentious Topics. If the community were self-sufficient and able to self-manage it would be inappropriate for it to be an ArbCom designated Contentious Topic. On the whole I am of the firm belief that this community is incredibly capable of handling large and thorny problems of both content (which is obviously out of bounds for ArbCom) and conduct. Because of this I think some members of the community will sometimes think that Contentious Topic is just a shortcut to make life easier - in this case I saw it in Billed Mammal's stating that ArbCom is supplementing the community in Contentious Topics. It goes beyond that. In a designated Contentious Topic there are going to be significant shortcomings in the community's abilities to self-manage. But being unable to self-manage does not mean the community finds itself helpless in managing a Contentious Topic. Hence my edited comment that there are reasons to do and not to do this proposal, which I continue to have no real opinion on. Barkeep49 (talk) 00:52, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification, Barkeep: your observations described in those terms, my own perspective substantially overlaps with yours. Sideswipe9th my response also touches upon your last post, but I'm doubling up here in responding to Barkeep to avoid redundancy. Let us assume for the moment that a CTOp being invoked in a topic area is a tacit statement that the community has been unable to handle issues in a topic area with the usual tools. I think the reality is quite a bit more complicated than that, but let's take that for granted in the present discussion so we can move on to more central points. Because the more critical/dispositive consideration here is that the increased tools that CTOP authorizes are meant to supplement existing administrative and community actions, not replace them. Even if we assume that any time ArbCom authorizes CTOP in a given area, it comes inherent with the message that the community is not getting the job done with typical methods, that is still a non-sequitor with the conclusion that ArbCom has declared that the rst of the community is not to take its own actions to arrest disruption in that area, where and when it can (be it at ANI or wherever). Not only does that conclusion not follow from the given premise, but we have a massive body of processes where the community clearly does regularly restrain problematic editors in CTOP/historical DS through processes taking place outside of AE. And this parallel activity has been undertaken as long as DS/CTOP have existed.

So the end result remains the same: a finding of CTOP in no way forestalls the broader community from exercising it's own prerogative to implement TBANs or other CBANs (to take just one example of what the community is permitted to do in CTOP areas). Surely if the contrary was the case, we would have adjusted the relevant policies on CBANs to reflect this fact years ago. CTOP merely authorizes the use of advanced tools to block or otherwise restrain problematic actors a little faster, and makes WP:AE an option for reporting and getting a faster administrative response. What CTOP clearly does not do is forbid the community at large from also using its own discretion in conjunction with these liberalized tools, as it can (and does) use such community decisions/CBANs parallel to regular administrative blocks, in any other topic area where disruption arises. Again, that would be an absurd conclusion: why would we want the community to be less proactive in responding to areas of heightened disruption? Clearly we want (or at least entertain the occasional need for) increased use of CBANs alongside the use of CTOP/1RR blocks and AE filings. Insofar as CTOP/DS language has ever said "DS/CTOP is meant for areas where the community is having trouble keeping the disruption in check", it is for the purpose of explaining the need for looser standards for when warnings, blocks, and other preventative administrative actions can take place--not for the purposes of saying "these issues can now only be addressed at AE". If it were the latter, then countless of our policies and much of the history community bans would read completely differently. SnowRise 01:59, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

What I think this very fair analysis of Contentious Topics misses out on is that certain editors/discussions are, themselves, signals that the community is unable to handle something. This is why not only can admin act sooner and sanction with more severity than they can outside a CT topic area (what SR focuses on) but also can act with first mover advantage and knowing that their actions are less likely to be overturned on formal appeal because of the higher than normal requirements. Barkeep49 (talk) 03:09, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• As to the substantive arguments, you may very well be correct that regulars in the GENSEX space consider ANI an intractable travesty: while my background and editorial interests in both biopsychology and human rights semi-frequently bring me into contact with existing disputes in this topic area, I don't engage with the area with the regularity of such editors. However, a few thoughts as to that: first off, that is not exactly a rare perspective about ANI's complications, issues, and the general caliber of discussion there from editors in...oh, I don't know, let's say every single topic area under the sun. That low opinion of what can happen at ANI (unavodiable to a certain extent by virtue of the fact that it specializes in intractable disputes) does not automatically invalidate the role that space serves or the necessity for preserving the ability for concerned community members to bring issues there for the community's consideration.

So I would say the onus is upon you as the party proposing such a massive carve-out to explain why this one topic area should deviate so drastically from how our policies and procedures operate for every other topic. I mean, have you even considered the fact that your proposal would essentially make it impossible for any disruptive party in the GENSEX area to hereafter ever receive a CBAN from that area (or the project in general) as a result of their conduct? That's a pretty humongous abrogation of the community's inherent purview as it has historically existed on this project--and yet also just one of several such outsized implications of the proposal. Is GENSEX so much more inherently disruptive an area so as to seize the entirety of all such determinations from the community at large, even when compared against other DS/CTOP topics? I just don't think so. The community needs to be able to weight in on longterm abuse regardless of the topic area, and your proposal would instead shift that role entirely to just those admins participating at AE. That's incredibly problematic to me, for more reasons than I can begin to list here.

For that matter, putting aside for the moment how extensively this proposal would usurp the broader community's role in preventing disruption in this area, and hamstring our ability to respond to longterm abuse, I am equally, if not more, concerned about the impacts upon the interests of the reported parties. For all the issues inherent to ANI, it does permit for more shades of grey to enter the discourse than does AE. Taking TT's case as an example, some of us were compelled to modulate our recommendations based on the nitty-gritty details and context of the dispute. Let's remember that the responding admin at AE has a fundamentally different role from the closer of an ANI thread. At ANI the closer must, to some degree, take stock of any ameliorating factors which gained significant support among respondents, because they are finding a community consensus in the discussion. At AE, the admin's role is much more that of the party actually making the determination in the first instance, based on the information provided by involved parties. That's a fundamental difference that effectively narrows the decision making from a group (which can, in the aggregate, often reach a more nuanced and reasonable conclusion that balances competing interests) to a single person, who is more likely to act in a very black and white (or at least far more idiosyncratic) fashion.

Again, sometimes that is precisely what we want, for the sake of efficiency and fairness. But often we want the broader community weighing in, in complicated or nuanced cases with competing community interests, and creating a blanket rule that would just completely pull that decision making into the authority of a increasingly smaller subset of the community is a bad direction to take, and even more questionable when you consider that the proposal is that we do it for a given topic area on the justification that "it gets ugly at ANI sometimes when we discuss this subject matter", because 1) what topic would that not apply to? and 2) sometimes the areas with the most contention behind them are the ones we want the community at large to be able to dig into, to avoid oversimplifcation in the handling of those disputes. SnowRise 21:53, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• Moral support - I'm generally in favor of making ANI operate more like AE (read: get rid of threaded discussions between the OP and accused party), and thus for as long as AN/I continues to not look like that, I'd generally support delegating more to AE over ANI. But, I do agree with Snow that there's procedural issues with raising this proposal here (at least as anything other than testing the waters), and beyond that would be more in favor of a proposal that cuts down on threaded discussion at ANI rather than just delegating work away from there in a piecemeal fashion. _signed, Rosguill 20:11, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  Reading through the proposal again, I guess my above reasoning puts me in the soft camp? But I don't think we need more guidance for this topic area so much as modest changes to how ANI operates, and for as long as ANI continues to be a free-for-all, AE will be a preferable forum for addressing pretty much any conduct dispute that it has authority to address. _signed, Rosguill 20:22, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  There's a fine line between accused having an opportunity/obligation to respond to their accusers and the potential for accusations of WP:BLUDGEONing and the current format makes it hard to tell which is happening. Very much agreed with you @Rosguill. Lizthegrey (talk) 22:13, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose I don't believe this is something we need to formalize. However, a few times in this saga I've said that it would be a good idea for the closing admins to suggest that future incidents of this type might be better suited for AE. I still stand by that. I suppose this is similar to the Soft version above, but less formal. We can make a recommendation, but we don't need to make the process so rigid by reducing out flexibility to handle new situations at the most appropriate place. The Wordsmith 22:21, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
• Support, preferring hard This case has pretty conclusively proven that in a controversial topic area it's possible to remove an opponent who has not actually done anything wrong just by showing up to ANI. Needless to say, this is bad. So I support any reform that would fix this situation, including this one. Loki (talk) 01:27, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

who has not actually done anything wrong - hmm, seems like a questionable summary to say the least. Crossroads 01:47, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• Strong oppose, this is a completely inappropriate carveout of one topic area, basically making WP:CBANs impossible for that topic. That is unprecedented and disempowers the community. It is not the place of a few people on AN and a few people unhappy with the recent closes to give/take that away. And the idea that AE is inherently superior to ANI is questionable. The limits there make it hard to document a pattern of misconduct; and without a pattern, it's easy and common for bad behavior to be handwaved away as though it is an isolated incident, or just sour grapes from transphobes or whatever. Crossroads 01:36, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  @Crossroads: CBANs are beyond AE's authority and would thus obviously not be covered by this. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 02:08, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  That is not at all obvious, and besides, then why propose this? It was two CBAN discussions that sparked this idea in the first place, and is motivating some of the votes. A technicality of "the discussion has to be explicitly for a CBAN from the get-go" would make it much harder for problems to be addressed because it's not common for one editor to have all that evidence personally and know that it is that severe. Crossroads 02:14, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  CBANS are pretty much exclusively a product of ANI discussions, so if you create a rule which prevents the community from bringing disruption attached to a given topic area to ANI, you effectively are creating a situation where a CBAN can never be applied to a user who has proven disruptive in that area. So, yes, your proposal very much removes CBANS (or similar actions taken as an expression of community will) as an option in any case of disruption that took place in the GENSEX topic area. Indeed, under your proposal, even an LTA or a suspected sock of a previously CBANned editor couldn't be brought to ANI to be dealt with if the disruption touched upon GENSEX editing. I honestly don't wish to be rude, Tamzin, so I hope you will forgive how stridently I am about to word this, but the fact that you didn't recognize this extremely obvious result of the proposal suggests you made it without due consideration for its very broad and numerous impacts. SnowRise 02:19, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  Well, there are two possibilities here. One is that I didn't consider the possible negative outcomes. The other is that you're wrong about those negative outcomes being remotely likely. Unsurprisingly, just as you tend to think your analysis is correct, I tend to think mine is. Perhaps after ~15kB of reiterating your parade of horribles that will come to pass if we so much as discourage these discussions, now would be a good time to step back and let others decide how valid your concerns are. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 02:37, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  Tamzin I'm fairly sure I've seen you a lot around AN/ANI so I'm fairly surprised that you're so unfamiliar with how CBANS work. While some CBANs start from the get go as someone reporting some behaviour problem an proposing a CBAN, I'd say most CBANs do not work like that. Instead they start of with someone reporting some misbehaviour. Others than may report more misbehaviour. Sometimes the OP responds extremely poorly as well. Eventually someone decides their behaviour is bad enough and proposes a CBAN. The community discussions/!vote this and we hopefully come to a consensus. Even better if it is an uncontentious consensus although sadly that isn't always the case. The organic nature of CBAN discussions means that saying this proposal excludes CBANs simply makes no sense. How can a proposal exclude CBANs when we have no idea if a CBAN may result until we've discussed? Nil Einne (talk) 02:49, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  @Nil Einne: I'm well aware of how CBANs work. I'm also well aware that there has not been consensus to CBAN someone for edits primarily relating to GENSEX since... Since when? I can't think of a time in recent memory, and I can think of one particular case where a CBAN proposal failed despite strong evidence of systemic discrimination against trans editors. If someone gets TBANned at AE from GENSEX, and continues to disrupt in other realms, then AN/I can still handle it, probably much less dramatically. "User:Example was indef TBANned from GENSEX last month at AE. They have since made comments X, Y, and Z regarding abortion. This user is clearly NOTHERE and further sanctions re in order" has a much better chance at AN/I than "User:Example has been saying A, B, C in this dispute about trans pronouns and D, E, F in this thread on gender dysphoria and also unrelatedly X, Y, Z about abortion". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tamzin (talk • contribs) 03:10, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  Look, I don't want to get in a cycle of counter-criticisms with you, especially because I can recognize that your proposal is a goodfaith response to seeing one too many trainwrecks in this area that could have driven away a valuable contributor (thankfully, from the above, it seems we have avoided that outcome with TheTranarchist). However, I will say that the vast majority of the "15kb" you reference is a necessary response to your hand-waving away observations about some pretty major consequences of your proposed course of action--which I would not describe as a "parade of horribles" but rather a series of results that would be direct consequences of that policy were it implemented, and which (far from being hypothetical or hyperbole), would be automatic and inevitable outcomes.

As Nil Einne, Crossroads and myself have already explained, almost all CBANs result from discussions where they were not suggested at the outset, and your personal recollections and feelings about their necessity not withstanding, there's no good reason to believe the community might not need to CBAN someone in this area from time to time, and no argument for stripping that option from the community's potential responses to disruption. Considering we just had two such CBANS of the sort that you describe as uncommon in one day, and considering there have been numerous other GENSEX TBANS implemented at ANI over the years, clearly the need for such tools is not as super rare as you suggest. And frankly, anti-trans sentiment is a reason why we should be concerned to preserve this option, not toss it away, because it's equally (if not more) likely that the next person we need to indefinitely remove from GENSEX editing will be a problem user aligned against trans rights.

And even as regards that rare exception where a CBAN proposal is a part of the initial complaint, that actually highlights another can-of-worms knock-on effect that would result from the framework you are advancing here. Because as soon as people adjust to this new dynamic, here's exactly what is going to happen: every single time that an editor with an ounce of WP:BATTLEGROUND in them at the moment wants to bring what they perceive to be disruption in the GENSEX area to ANI, they are simply going to include a request for a CBAN in their filing, because that will become the most obvious way for them to get past the arbitrary "must be an issue that AE cannot address" threshold that is a part of your model. And I fail to see how forcing every complaint filed at ANI over GENSEX disruption to start out with the posture of a proposed CBAN is going to make the resulting discussions less inflamed. SnowRise 07:52, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: Just spitballing. What about a system in which CT issues are still reported at ANI, but they can be forwarded to AE if it's determined that there was disruptive behavior? This would theoretically retain the benefits of the discussion format, but it would end the discussion before the thousands of words dedicated to arguing about whether sanctions are warranted and what sanctions are applicable. Of course, this system would not address the legitimate concerns raised by Crossroads above. I also think that any solution should involve reform that allows for topics to be delisted from CT more easily per Barkeep49. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:59, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  Puts the cart before the horse. If "it's determined that there was disruptive behavior" then a conclusion has already been reached and an appropriate sanction or warning can issue.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:48, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Having watched AE proceedings over the years, I am quite confused on why anyone would see that as an improvement in venue. In fact the ability for a single admin to supervote by design, has been a detriment to the encyclopedia in my opinion. Arkon (talk) 02:02, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
• oppose. this is instruction creep. lettherebedarklight晚安 03:02, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose in a number of ANI cases involving an DS area, I have suggested that it might be simpler to take things to ARE. Indeed in a number of cases where someone was not formally aware, I've given alerts as a result of an ANI cases and if the problems were minor enough I've suggested perhaps it would be easier to just leave things be for now and take it to ARE if it repeats. I haven't done so since it changed to CT mostly because it's just something I do where I happen to see a case where this might help. In other words, I fully support the idea that often it is better for areas well covered by CT to be simply handled by CT rather than going through normal community discussion.

  However I'd oppose trying to force cases must be treated as CT without very strong evidence that this is the best for the community. And to be clear this includes the soft variant as it also include a degree of force.

  As noted above, there are numerous possible consequences for this e.g. how we handle cban or other sanctions that aren't something CT can impose. Note also that CBANs technically include topic bans even from CT areas. While I am personally not fussed whether an editor is subject to a community topic ban or a CT one, there is always going to be editors who feel a community ones is better since it will require a community consensus to remove. (After all, we even had community site ban of an editor because the community was concerned about an earlier arbcom decision to unban the editor.) There's also how this affect cases that might be better for the community to handle since they are more complicated than the simpler disruption in a certain topic area CT handles best.

  I'd even more oppose it for any specific CT area (instead of all CT areas) without strong evidence there's a reason to treat these as special areas. I'm far from convinced that the two reason cases resulted in this are the worst we've seen at ANI. And concerns over people trying to get rid of opponents covers pretty much all CT areas and frankly anything contentious which isn't CT. E.g. the notability/ARS wars.

  Most importantly though, IMO this is simply a bad idea at this time. To some extent there is an aspect of hard cases make bad law here. But more importantly, emotions are clearly still running high over those two recent cases. I don't think it likely holding this discussion at this time is going to improve that or ensure we make a good decision. Instead we get comments like "who has not actually done anything wrong". Clearly quite a few members of the community do not agree with that for one or both of those editors. This includes many who are not opponents. While a discussion like this is always likely to be contentious and may get controversial comments, the best outcome and least disruption and harm to the community will come if we hold it when editors aren't already affected by two recent controversial cases, cases which resulted in this proposal. Fanning the flames when emotions are still so high is not going to benefit the community.

  To be clear, I'm not suggesting any editor involved in this proposal ill motivations, I have no doubt they're genuinely trying to improve Misplaced Pages and fix a problem that they feel was highlighted by recent cases. However having good motivations doesn't stop an editor making bad decisions and I feel that's clearly the case here. (Actually part of the reason why they have made such a bad decision is precisely why we should not be doing this. Perhaps they weren't able to see what they may have seen when if it wasn't so soon after those two cases namely that it was a terrible idea to discuss this right at this moment.)

  Nil Einne (talk) 03:28, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per most of the above, especially SnowRise. Not going to repeat it all. I do think that an "ARBGENSEX2" case is ultimately inevitable, but it will be after the community has failed to be able to resolve the problem without having to defer to ArbCom. And that time is not upon us yet. I agree also especially with Crossroads in observing that AE is not a good venue for establishing long-term patterns of disruption, only short-term "outbursts", because of its strict limits.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:46, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - While I recognize that Tamzin's suggestion is entirely a good faith effort to deal with a pressing problem, I believe that SnowRise's analysis of the results that would occur if this were put into effect to be more accurate and representative of the general history of AN and AN/I. Community discussion can result in a CBAN, which requires that the community overturn it. It is therefore a more powerful sanction then an admin-imposed AE indef, which -- like every other admn-imposed sanction -- can be overturned at any time by any individual admin (for whatever reason). We should not lose the potential use of CBANS as an option. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:32, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  @Beyond My Ken: I'm fairly sure you're wrong about CT sanctions as alluded to by User:Barkeep49 and maybe others above. As documented at Misplaced Pages:Contentious topics#Changing or revoking a contentious topic restriction, these can't simply be overturned at any time by an individual admin for any reason. That can only happen when it's an indef and was imposed by a single admin and it's been more than a year or the imposing admin is no longer an admin. Otherwise if the imposing admin agrees (including when imposing the sanction) but note this sort of means it's not overturned solely by any admin. Oh and if it's imposed by a single admin, they (but only they) can change or remove it themselves without needing to ask anyone. Maybe more importantly a case which makes it to AE will often result in discussion before sanction is imposed by rough consensus of admins in which case none of this applies and it needs to be appealed either at AE or AN or by arbcom. To be clear, this is only for sanctions imposed under CT. I believe in some cases an admin will just quickly impose a sanction as an ordinary admin action rather than under CT and AE will decide to just leave it at that. (And as noted to some extent even if it is imposed under CT, if by a single admin which I think is another possible outcome of an AE report, this admin could allow it to be treated like a regular sanction and overturned by any admin by saying so when imposing it.) Nil Einne (talk) 09:03, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  I may be confused about that, I'm not certain, but it *is* certain that if all GENSEX issues are required to be settled at AE, then a CBAN is out of the question, and I still consider a CBAN to be a more powerful sanction, because it comes from the community at large. It may be more cumbersome to *reach* a consensus to CBAN, but the direct consensus of the community is, to my mind, a stronger action. Beyond My Ken (talk) 11:31, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• OpposeAs a general principle leave it to us on the ground to thrash things out. The existing structure can take care of those fairly rare times we can't.Lukewarmbeer (talk) 10:08, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - I appreciate Tamzin making an effort to find a way to improve our resolution of disputes and to avoid having difficult mega-threads like these two ANIs we just had. However, I am among those who does not believe that AE is better at resolving disputes than ANI (although I do believe in some cases we should make some ANI threads more formal, like AE, to e.g. reduce bludgeoning). I also don't think AN is the right place to decide structural changes to ANI; that should be at the pump; the Administrator's Noticeboard is not an appropriate place for any RFC in my view. Discussions here will attract attention from administrators, and RFCs might bring in FRS, but that's still not a pool representative of the overall community. Ironically, my procedural objection is rooted in the same principle as my substantive objection: fundamentally, if you reduce the pool of decision-makers from "everyone" to "administrators", you don't end up with a better decision. Levivich (talk) 15:34, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  Apparently we're testing the theory. Levivich (talk) 21:45, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  So much for that. Closed promptly with "It is debatable whether ... that would be a matter for AE".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:32, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• Neutral on the soft proposal, though I think it should be worded to encompass all CT areas, oppose the hard version. I do think AE is a better venue for most CT-related conduct disputes, and I hope our admins feel empowered to strongly suggest that newly filed ANI reports be moved to AE when possible. I would be fine with admins closing such discussions and directing the OPs to AE, though I think all it should take to reopen them is the OP saying "no, I definitely want this to stay at ANI". I oppose the hard proposal as GENSEX doesn't need this treatment over other CT areas, and because I agree with those that are concerned about missing out on some ANI-specific potential remedies. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:27, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
• Note: I've placed a notice of this discussion at WP:VPP and listed it on the WP:CD ticker: these issues and the proposed solution have implications far too broad to be considered by just those of us here. SnowRise 22:27, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - My lead reasoning will remain that our community members are intended to be able to pick their forum, depending on what they think can work best (I suspect GENSEX regulars are likely aware of the options). I oppose revoking that choice. There are more personal reasons someone might have this reason (e.g. So long as I continue to find complex discussions harder to understand in separated discussion than ANI rambling but more continuous format (while many are fiercely the opposite); or someone preferring to have an area settled by the general editing base than a small subset of admins), that encourage them to prefer one format over another. In terms of proposer's request to find alternate solutions, then I believe they may be best off indicating what the most problematic factors are, then mitigations to those can be advised, which may well more be in execution than mechanics. Time? Length of reading? Both no doubt come with negatives, but the flipside is both indicate significant numbers of editors trying to find a solution and struggling. A shift to AE may well resolve on those two aspects, but at the issue of cutting the people participating, or the views & evidence given. In which case, it's not a solution, but a tradeoff. We deal with tradeoffs all the time, but for any tradeoff, the proposal should be noting the negatives that arise and why we should accept their cost. I do not believe those costs are sufficiently covered here, with either option. Nosebagbear (talk) 00:09, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
• I've been a bit conflicted on this but I think I'm coming down on the side of weakly supporting the soft version of this proposal.—S Marshall T/C 08:33, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. It is my firm belief that this proposal would not have been made if it had been any other topic area. Gensex editors should not be treated any differently from other editors that wind up at ANI. Gensex editors are not special and exceptional. Misplaced Pages is not here to coddle any editors, regardless of their editing experience and editor level. Gensex editors must follow the same Misplaced Pages community policies that affect non-gensex editors, and if one of them pushes an envelope too far, he/she/they must face the same action and consequences faced by editors who have engaged in similar behavior in non-gensex articles. ANI is where issues regarding a user's conduct need to be discussed and determined. Pyxis Solitary (yak yak). Ol' homo. 12:02, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. For the same reason I opposed making ANI more like AE, there is a need for a place to report issue that has no bar of entry. No matter how low that bar can be made. Maybe taking discussions to AE is a good idea, and could be suggested once a report has been made, but there shouldn't be any formal direction on the matter. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 15:31, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
• Strong oppose hard, neutral on soft - AE is too bureaucratic. Allowing an admin to move a discussion to AE puts the bureaucratic responsibility to the admin, not the (possibly new) user who wants to file a complaint. Animal lover |666| 16:56, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
• Neutral to support on hard, support on soft - I know this sounds vague, but in this case, any solution is better than no solution. The way I see it, most GENSEX editors have it significantly harder on virtually every level and WP might not be well equipped to handle all of it with its existing administrative structures. @Tamzin I hope this will not come off as if I am rushing through the nuances of this proposal; rather, I am trying to say that this is one of those cases where, in principle, I'll support attempts to lessen the burden on GENSEX editors, even if those are not "perfect" by WP standards. I'll add that to VP discussion. And I really think some editors in ANI should take WP:WALLOFTEXT to heart. Ppt91 19:10, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Cases from all other topic areas can be brought here (can't they?). I don't see how it is helpful to make an exception for GENSEX. Editors should not be curtailed from raising important issues so that the most people can see them. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 02:27, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Does not seem appropriate; cases should be filed where appropriate as appropriate. Stifle (talk) 14:59, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose I don't see even from the previous ANI threads that GENSEX topics are unique in a manner that would make AE the only appropriate venue, especially since AE tends to languish in my experience from lack of input. If there's thoughts that ANI itself could be restructured to address issues, that's worth talking about (BilledMammal's suggestions etc.) But I don't actually see how this solves any problem. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 15:21, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Actively trying to reduce community involvement in banning people for their problematic behaviour is counter to the core consensus-based approach to community management. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:09, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

A plea: Propose a better solution

I don't think I have ever felt truly desperate on Misplaced Pages before. I have not come here trying to offer a magic bullet to this problem. I have presented two drafts of solutions to a problem that is making a highly sensitive topic area unsafe to edit in. Most people who edit GENSEX have been neutral to supportive of this proposal. It has largely been the "AN(I) regulars" here saying no, we have to continue to stew in this mess—a kind of mess that, no doubt, AN(I) regulars are used to, else they wouldn't be AN(I) regulars. The people in this topic area do not edit so they can have month-long dramaboard threads. We edit because we see issues in Misplaced Pages's woefully inadequate coverage of gender issues. Inhumane treatment of BLP subjects. Coverage of sociological subjects that is sourced to Tumblr blogs rather than academic papers. Coverage of highly sensitive biomedical subjects that is sourced to Tumblr blogs rather than academic papers. All to push both pro- and anti-trans narratives, sometimes in the same sentence.

So I'm begging y'all, please. As a fellow editor. As someone who has poured her heart into writing two GAs in this topic area. This is a request for comment. I am requesting y'all's comments: Propose a better solution. Propose something that does not drive away editors from a topic area desperately in need of them. I still think my ideas work fine or would only nned slight tweaks—in particular "soft", which may oppose !votes haven't really addressed—but if you disagree, I get it. That's how consensus works. But there is a massive problem here. I don't think anyone familiar with the facts disputes that. If you won't support either these solutions, then something else. Please. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 23:18, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

The same sort of plea could be made about every WP:CTOP subject area. There's nothing magically special about this one. What you have boils down to a complaint about how WP:ANI operates, and we all have complaints about how ANI operates, but there isn't a clear consensus on how to improve it. "Carve my preferred topic out of ANI" isn't a solution, and an RfC predicated on that idea isn't going to be the vehicle by which we arrive at ANI reform.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:44, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

I edit in quite a few CTOP areas. I am not aware of another one that routinely triggers weekslong battles of this sort at AN/I. But if your response to a request for a better proposal is "I acknowledge a systemic problem, oppose a solution, and have no better solution to offer," all right, noted. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 00:30, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Instead of engaging in a petty straw-man argument, try reading what I wrote more carefully. To spell it out: This proposal is basically a poisoned well. If you want to propose ANI reform, do it in a clean proposal in an appropriate venue and there may be enough other editors fed up with ANI for the same reasons to support some changes. (Comment length/frequency limitations are a pretty commonly suggested idea, so that's a likely starting point.)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:57, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

( Peanut gallery comment) I may be overusing this template, but I really want to make clear that I'm a newbie here. I don't mean to be a bother. In my lowly opinion, the first substantive community response to a new editor's behavioral issue should not be a vicious, humiliating, overlong, utterly unsympathetic ANI case. And if you're just going to hand out a TBAN anyway, you might as well make it policy to slap an editing restriction on anyone with more than one warning in the GENSEX topic area. It would eliminate a lot of the pointless bureaucracy.In my lowly opinion, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. (Metric friends may substitute '28 grams' and '0.45 kilogram'. /j) If the WP:Adopt-a-user program were reasonably effective I wager you wouldn't find even half as many chronic, intractable behavioral problems in this area. You can try to whip GENSEX into shape all you like, but do you really think that increasing sanctions will entice new users to come edit the area? (I certainly am not enticed. Thank god I stay on the refdesks.) If the broader community were more proactive and less reactive in responding to flawed editing, things would surely not escalate so rapidly.In any case I don't really have a concrete suggestion. I would greatly like to see increased collegiality between old and new editors with a more developed mentorship program. But anything that gets the community to act before things have escalated to a TBAN is a better solution than what exists presently. Stop punishing people when you veterans haven't even figured out how to solve the underlying problem. In the meantime (I know my comment is unrealistic), I think AE is probably a better place than ANI for things like this. But maybe it would be best to introduce an "AE mode" for use at ANI, so discussions could be more structured yet not as limited in scope and jurisdiction. Just a thought.I don't mean to be impolite with this comment, just impassioned. If I've been incivil, let me know and I'll strike it. Shells-shells (talk) 00:14, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

I'd be all for a radical restructuring of AN/I—perhaps limiting it into actual incidents and creating a separate Administrators' noticeboard/Recurring issues without threaded discussion—but that seems even less likely to happen than fixing the handling of GENSEX discussions. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 00:31, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Shells-shells, topic bans are not "punishment", they are protection of the project from recurrent disruption. I don't know what you think AE does, but go observe it for a while, and you'll see that it largely hands out topic bans (and blocks). It is unlikely that either of the GENSEX editors recently sanctioned at ANI would not have been sanctioned at AE.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:05, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

I have read WP:PUNITIVE, yes, which is why I specifically used the word punishing. With the exception of its first sentence—I would rather say bans should not be "punishment"—I completely agree with your comment. Shells-shells (talk) 01:40, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Shells-shells, topic bans are not "punishment", they are protection of the project from recurrent disruption.

They are both. It's meant to be protective, but it's absolutely a "you did something wrong and now we're taking away your ability to edit here" punishment. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:17, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Well, I do think there are some issues with that framing: it's really the low hanging fruit/Wikipedia equivalent of a politician's baby kiss to say ANI is ugly and that we wish the process of dispute resolution could be more collegial--and less dispiriting for newcomers in particular. But nobody is excited when a dispute or issue grows to the point that it lands at ANI, let alone when a CBAN has to be issued, and when I check in at ANI, I fairly regularly see people doing their best to make the process (borrowing upon your wording here) as un-vicious, un-humiliating, and sympathetic as they can, in the circumstances. But let's have a dose of realism and pay at least lip service to some important constraints here: sometimes there are values and priorities of our community and methodology (for providing reliable, neutral, factually-accurate material to serve the needs of our readers) that have to take precedence over encouraging the editing of every contributor, in every area, all the time.

That important caveat said, my overall thoughts are that you've identified a fruitful area here--indeed, maybe one of the few areas that actual stands a chance of improving the situation in question, as it stands. I think you are very much correct that more effort at the front-end, when onboarding volunteers, could pay immense dividends in the long run, in terms of decreased disruption, acrimony, and need to re-set editorial conduct when problematic patterns have already been formed. As you say, mentorship in one form or another is surely an under-exploited potential tool. I think there's a cognitive bias at work here that is not at all uncommon to institutions of governance: we are fixated with and dissuaded by the upfront costs, failing to rationally apply a longterm analysis.

On the other hand, I am not surprised that "adopt-a-user" has failed to catch on: what a patronizing choice of title for such a program. I imagine it has an especially discouraging impact on precisely the type of editors we are talking about here and would most like to reach with such a scheme: those who come here specifically to edit in CTOP areas: some of those editors would be just simply battleground and avoidant of the idea of the need for guidance by nature and others, as a consequence of what their communities have historically had to deal with, are justifiably sensitive to implied condescension. Anyway, that last point is a nitpick observation. I agree the mentorship angle is something this community needs to invest in. Not just to ameliorate the issues being contemplated here today, but for purposes of editor retention and community unity/harmonized outlook.SnowRise 01:55, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

I may simply be naïve, but I don't think ANI is really as bad as people say. It seems to work pretty well as an ad hoc tribunal, or as a grand jury. But once in a while it gets acrimonious, and the last people who should be subjected to an acrimonious ANI thread are new users. In fact I think there's far too much bureaucracy facing new users anyway (even excepting ANI), but that criticism is also low hanging fruit. There ought to be better options, with lower stakes, in the first place.I agree completely with your second and third paragraphs. It would be wonderful for a mentorship culture to develop here, and 'Adopt-a-user' may well need a rebranding. Shells-shells (talk) 03:12, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Throwing this out there: ArbCom. We pay them to deal with problems that are, well, really bad. We haven't actually tried this yet; WP:GENSEX is not a "real" case. HouseBlaster 00:27, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

I've said before that I think a GENSEX2 case is ultimately inevitable, but why do you think an ArbCom proceeding would be preferable? It would ultimately take several months, dig even deeper into various individuals' editing habits, and probably result in more sanctions, on more editors, that are harder to appeal. Few things drive editors away from a topic area better and faster than WP:RFARB attention.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:05, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't know that I would agree that such a case would be per se a bad thing: if it gets to the point that ArbCom forms a case, presumably it will be a situation where there are at least potentially bad actors needing scrutiny--which would not be a happy occasion but would surely be better than their hiding their heads in the sand. That said, it would all come down to the particulars whether it would be a positive development in the aggregate.

Those caveats made, I agree with your central point: I don't see how such a case would really remedy the systemic issues being contemplated here. For all its overriding authority, ArbComs remedies in a situation like this are rather limited. They can make a subject CTOP (and this one already is), they can sanction individual editors, sometimes they publically hold harmless someone who got pulled into a dispute through no disruptive fault of their own, and they can take steps to protect individuals from harassment. All vital work, such as it goes, but making substantial changes to our community structures and processes, at least in this context, is largely outside of their remit. To the extent we want to reform ANI or any of our other community processes, it's just not something we can pass to their shoulders. The buck stops here. SnowRise 01:19, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

It depends what the issue is? If the issue is certain editors who cannot behave in the topic area, but the issue becomes too obfuscated in ANI discussions for the community at large to get involved, then ArbCom would be a good venue to deal with it. DS I don't think dealt with these problems too well either, and ArbCom directly does I think. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 13:07, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Sorry T. I do feel bad about opposing one of your remedies without proposing an alternative. The thing I keep hoping for in GENSEX is a group of three to five admins that hang around. It's the main difference I see between GENSEX and American Politics or Pseudoscience. The early intervention of an admin warning is little seen in GENSEX. I'm looking for things like "If you continue to bludgeon discussions/to misgender the article subject/to rely on evidently unreliable sources/to skirt the bounds of civility, I will block you." They'll have been witness to the patterns of editing that might eventually prove to have been problematic. The only other suggestion I have is stricter enforcement and clerking at AE. If we're counting on that as the good option, let's tune it up. Though I do think there are deep problems in GENSEX, I don't share the view that it's at the top of the CT/general sanctions problem pile. Within the past year, we've had knock-down-drag-outs tied to Armenia-Azerbaijan, Russia-Ukraine, AmPol, and Palestine-Israel. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 00:59, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

If there were no sanctions imposed, would you be making your proposal or this plea? Arkon (talk) 01:23, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Two out of three sanctions proposals went "my way", including one that I literally proposed, and the third one I only weakly opposed, so... -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 01:46, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

That doesn't feel like an answer. There was literally nothing different in these reports than the thousands of reports before it, other than the accused throwing out so many bytes of text without reprimand. If your concern is separate from the results, you may want to wait and propose in isolation. I think divorcing your concern from the results may be helpful to your cause. Arkon (talk) 01:55, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

I have not framed this thread as an objection to the outcome of the TT thread. I've framed it as what it is: about that thread, and several others, being "shitshow"s. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 02:00, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Tamzin here is clearly frustrated with the manner in which WP:ANI operates generally in these sorts of cases, and I don't think that this is purely some reaction to being dissatisfied with a single closing statement. She is being extremely candid in this thread, and, while I disagree with her proposal above, I do share her sentiment that there are certain topics and situations where ANI is not capable of handling disputes without consuming an inordinate amount of community time in exchange for at most marginal benefit to the community. She's being sincere here regarding her motives, and I don't think it drives the conversation forward to insinuate otherwise. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 05:13, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

For three months, trial structured discussion at ANI:

1. ANI reports are to be titled using the format "Editor name(s), topic area(s), type(s) of disruption". For example "BilledMammal, Platypus, Disruptive cite-tagging"
2. Editors wishing to make a statement on the report should create a fourth level section (====) titled using the format "Statement by editor name". There is no word or diff limit, but editors are advised that the longer it is the less likely it is to be read.
3. Editors may edit their statement as required; normal requirements to ensure that replies are not deprived of context are waived, and editors making replies are advised to quote any relevant sections.
4. Editors may reply to no more than five statements; there are no limits to the number of replies they may make to those statements. Editors may additionally reply to any statement that discusses their behavior. Replies should not introduce new information, and should instead seek to clarify or discuss the information raised in the editors statement.
5. Statements should remain closely related to the initial topic raised. If additional behavioral issues need to be raised, including behavioral issues related to the editor who opened the discussion, editors should create a third level section (===) using the same format of "Editor name(s), topic area(s), type(s) of disruption".
6. To propose community sanctions, editors should create a fourth level section (====) titled "Proposed sanctions on Editor name(s)".
7. Editors !voting on community sanctions proposals should keep their !vote concise and reference their statement for more detailed arguments and evidence. Editors may not reply to other editors community sanction !votes.

The intent of this suggestion is to keep discussions on topic, to prevent bludgeoning and impenetrable walls of text, and to try to introduce a level of neutrality into the opening of the discussions. It also attempts to keep things less structured and limited than AE, as I don't believe that level of structure is appropriate here.

Issues I see are that the structure will be excessive for some discussions (for example, WP:ANI#IP range from Poland, trouble with one article - although I do believe the proposed title format of "Polish IP range, Weedkiller (album), edit warring" would be more informative than the existing title), that it will make boomerangs more difficult, and that the structure will be difficult for editors to enforce. However, if editors are interested in attempting to apply structure to ANI, I hope that making a proposal - even an awful one - will at least spark a discussion on what that structure could look like. BilledMammal (talk) 02:24, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Bill, I know it's a big ask, but I think a rudimentary mock-up in a sandbox might be helpful here: perhaps it's just me, but I am having a bit of difficulty visualizing the overarching format of how these pieces fit together. SnowRise 03:09, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

@Snow Rise: See here; I hope it manages to make it more clear. BilledMammal (talk) 03:37, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Definitely helps. Was close to what I had in mind when I originally !voted "Let ArbCom (or delegate) sort it out in a more structured way" because of the mess of accusations and counter-accusations threaded together. Lizthegrey (talk) 08:07, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Reading sectioned discussion is always a massive pain to try and understand any lengthy discussion - I've never seen a good explanation of how to easily read replies and replies to replies in a smooth fashion in such a discussion, as well as seeing how the discussion tone in general changes as it runs. So on that basis alone, I'd be against any such trial - but especially as a general ANI structure. I believe points 1, 4, 6 do have serious potential value to them, and point 5 could be used in certain circumstances/categories of discussion, although I'd like to see a clarification on how it worked with threads that raised multiple behavioural issues initially. Would each need its own section? Nosebagbear (talk) 16:54, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

First Law of Misplaced Pages Reform: Calls to reform a page, made on the page to be reformed, will result in no reforms. Levivich (talk) 06:48, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

I've started a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (idea_lab)#Allow administrators to enforce structured discussions in CT/GS to workshop a possible proposal. I feel that keeping it separate from this discussion may help keep it focused. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:37, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Closure Request: V22 RFC

The RFC at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Rollback of Vector 2022 is overdue for a close. A request made at WP:RFCLOSE#Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Rollback of Vector 2022 has been sitting for several weeks now, and it would be helpful if some brave soul(s) would attempt the close. Experienced closers are recommended, as with ~3000 edits it is one of the largest RfCs ever conducted on enwiki (second place by my count behind WP:BLPRFC1). Given the complexity and importance, it has been suggested that a panel of admins volunteer to close it collectively.

Regards, The Wordsmith 01:31, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Might be best for someone to hat the discussion while a closer or closers are found - I took a look at the page history and it looks like another ~15 comments were added yesterday which continues to make the job even more laborious. 104.247.245.249 (talk) 11:10, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

May I urge that this be closed as soon as possible? Discussion is devolving into attacks. I get that this is a mammoth RFC, and that a good many people have weighed in and are inelligible to close it, but this has become an open sore, and leaving this as an open sore on our encyclopedia is not a good thing. schetm (talk) 18:52, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

As I said on RFCLOSE, I am uninvolved and can be part of a panel close if needed. Multiple people have expressed that they would like an administrator to help close, so if any admin could volunteer that would be great. — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 00:17, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Isabelle Belato has come to the task! Aaron Liu (talk) 19:01, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

33 AfDs in 3 minutes

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

If I counted correctly, Dawid2009 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) started 33 AfD discussions in 3 minutes, probably using a bot, copy-pasting the same rationale, not notifying relevant editors, and obviously not performing any WP:BEFORE. His targets are wives/partners of footballers and the rationale is "She is famous because of relationship with her parthner. Apart from that what is her independet notablity? For now article is quite poorly sourced", when in many cases the articles have decent sourcing, the subjects were notable before and beyond their engagement to footballers and are even more notable than their counterparts (eg. Giorgia Palmas has a prominent 20 years career on Italian television and is certainly not notable for her relationship with Davide Bombardini, or Elena Santarelli is better known than her husband, who in fact is the subject of articles titled Elena Santarelli: Who is her husband Bernardo Corradi?. I was going to vote "Speedy Keep" on any of them as disruptive, but I really think they should be speedy closed on procedural grounds. Cavarrone 09:11, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

They also didn't add the AfD template to any of the articles they nominated. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 11:05, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

I've speedy closed the lot as disruptive AfDs where clearly no WP:BEFORE at all was done, and in many cases the article wasn't even read apparently. None of them had any delete votes, a lot had keep votes with evidence of notability, and the few articles I spotchecked also were about notable persons in their own right. Fram (talk) 11:41, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Good call. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 11:52, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Fram—I was going to do it myself, but I think you have to be auto- or extended-confirmed to use the Script. And I gulped at closing 33 AfDs manually! SN54129 13:21, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

I did it manually :-) Fram (talk) 13:27, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

I would like to sorry for that incident. I will never do again so non-patient and fast approach. I have did it after revievind massviews from the category:Association footballers' wives and girlfriends too fast and have choosen articles with bit few references. Most articles I nominated to improve them but I had not any bad faith in that to be honest. Next time I will be more careful. Sorry for disturbing time of some editors and not clear view at afd now.... but it was too fast accident from my side, not understand me very wrong, I regret. Dawid2009 (talk) 13:39, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Nice work Fram. Bots should never be used to open a series of AfDs or the like, too much chance of things like this occurring. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:42, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) No great harm done, but just remember that women can be just as notable as (or more notable than) their male partners. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:45, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Self-requesting community review of revision deletion

I just revision-deleted 122 revisions of Pea Ridge, Arkansas going back to 2009 under RD1 due to about half of the article being a copyright violation from and . While normally we don't nuke that long of a span of article history for copyvios, I felt that the massive scope of the situation warranted it. Have placed a message on the article's talk page to explain the removal/deletion and have left a copyvio warning for the editor who added the material, as they are still semi-active. Given the extensive amount of revision deletion I did, I would appreciate an informal community review of the scope of the RD1. Thanks! Hog Farm _Talk 16:46, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

@Hog Farm “While normally we don't nuke that long of a span of article history for copyvios, I felt that the massive scope of the situation warranted it.” Reluctance to do revdels like this has only very recently become “practice”— it’s not actually based in any policy, more just how some admins feel right now. They were done for years previously with no issues. As far as that revdel goes I’d say it’s very safely in discretion; I’ve revdeled much more going back much longer. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 16:54, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Speaking only in general, I'll echo Money that we might decline to do certain RD for Streisand reasons and where it'll have such a huge impact on the article history. But the alternative of leaving blatant copyright violations in the history doesn't strike me as much of an alternative. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:22, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Given the extent of the copyrighted material introduced in the article, the decision to apply revision deletion is well justified. -- Whpq (talk) 17:24, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Looks like a solid use of RevDel here. No issues I can see. Deleting that much history is never what we hope for, but often necessary. The Wordsmith 17:35, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

The chapter and verse says "Administrators hold discretion on the appropriateness of revision deletion for each case." so what you did was perfectly within policy. Given that appears to be plagiarism of an offline source, it's no wonder it sat around for years. Ritchie333 19:21, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Is there any point to these self-requested community reviews? The very fact that review has been requested indicates that the action was almost certainly correct. The actions that are questionable are those that are kept under the radar. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:31, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Is there any point to these self-requested community reviews? Appears to this editor as an admin looking to demonstrate transparency and accountability. Also demonstrates behviour to be modelled; if you're uncertain, it's ok to ask, rather than default to self-confidence. As method, it's a for me. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 22:23, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Personally, I think so. The community should encourage a collaborative environment where editors feel free to discuss actions they've taken and openly discuss pros and cons. isaacl (talk) 00:48, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

It's unfortunate that this was necessary, but nonetheless, it was necessary. We certainly should not be leaving copyright violations in article history. Seraphimblade 00:43, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

( Peanut gallery comment) I can understand your sentiment a bit, I once got a bit suspicious of an article and reported it and watched edits going back to ~2010 get stripped away (article was very low visibility). But at the end of the day, the point of cleaning up copyvios is to keep Misplaced Pages a law abiding website (or as law abiding as you can with editors leaking the addresses of whoever they're mad at at the moment), so with that in mind, you did your job well and used the tool properly, even if it nuked a lot of the page. Pear 2.0 (say hi!) 16:32, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

ANI thread titled Japanese help needed

It no longer needs Japanese-speaking help, as the translations have been confirmed to be awful.

As I understand it, this is the situation: Dekimasu has asked for a closer. The problem extends beyond Japanese, according to several other editors. The editor in question has promised to fix their work but to my (inexpert) eye their example of good work that they have done is nearly impenetrable. I myself am only involved to the extent that I clean up some different messes at WP:PNT but the ever-increasing backlog there doesn't need another prolific producer of automated translation, and the erroneous Chat GPT articles probably will just go straight into main space unnoticed if nothing is done. Elinruby (talk) 01:34, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

 Done, I've closed the discussion. Galobtter (pingó mió) 06:55, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Close needed

Hello. The big discussion Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Rollback of Vector 2022 has been open for a long time and there has been a request at WP:Close requests for the discussion to be closed for almost a month. This discussion really needs to be closed. Iamreallygoodatcheckers 03:19, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

I spent half an hour drawing up a closing rationale. Then I realised I'd opposed at the RfC so had to bin the whole lot. If anyone wants to take my notes, drop me a line. Ritchie333 18:17, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

I've marked the RFC as doing. If you want to email me what you wrote down, Ritchie333, I'd appreciate it. Isabelle Belato 18:52, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

@Isabelle Belato: thank you for having the courage to tackle this close! :) Iamreallygoodatcheckers 19:57, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

And, likewise, have the courage to subsequently watch the WMF override the entire discussion whichever way it falls, and impose it as an Office Action... 😄 SN54129 20:35, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

🙃. Isabelle Belato 21:15, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps not the WMF, but I guess we can keep this section open for a closure challenge. Independently of what the closure says. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:32, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

I intend to challenge the closure regardless of what it says. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 04:08, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, Isabelle! InfiniteNexus (talk) 16:19, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

@Isabelle Belato: Ingenuity previously expressed interest in helping close this as well. Could you two work together on the close? Thanks! InfiniteNexus (talk) 16:29, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

User is adding unsourced information and reverting talk page messages in a purely disruptive manner

In opposition to WP:V and WP:OR (as well as WP:COLOR), BrickMaster02 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been adding unsourced information, reverting my edits, and removing talk page messages. Note that in the particular page (Supermarket Sweep), there is an explicit third opinion to not add unsourced information, which he keeps on doing. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:40, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

I said that I would move it to another article, heck I would've even added reliable sources. But you reverted the edits, and blame me for doing it. Also, haven't you been banned indefinitely four times for disruptive editing, like you have? If you want me to add citations, I will, but don't go THIS FAR by adding me to a report when I didn't do much "vandalism". BrickMaster02 (talk) 22:44, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

"Also, haven't you been banned indefinitely four times for disruptive editing, like you have?" This doesn't make sense. Please don't add unsourced information to Misplaced Pages or remove talk post messages. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:51, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Note that he has also made a spurious AIV post and falsely claimed that I "won't let him talk". ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:46, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

But you didn't. In case you didn't read my reply, which you seemingly didn't because you're spamming these threads, you said and I quote "Please do no add unsourced information to any article, particularly this one." Had you said something like "Can you explain why you reverted my edit?" or mentioned it on the article's talk page, this whole thing would've been over. BrickMaster02 (talk) 22:49, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

I asked you on your talk page if you had read WP:V and WP:OR. You removed the thread without responding. This is not a forum for you to litigate with me endlessly, so I'm not going to engage this. I hope the admins see your behavior here. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:52, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

I already reinstated your edits. If the admins do see this, then I deeply and sincerely apologize. And I absolutely mean it. I just wish we could've avoided the "drama" and I always ruin everything. No one likes me on this website, and whenever I try to make a useful contribution, I get verbally crucified. I know I have a lot to change about my behavior, and I doubt anyone will forgive me, but I want to let everyone know that I regret all of my actions on here. BrickMaster02 (talk) 22:56, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

User:Jasper Deng’s closing of a discussion

Jasper Deng recently closed Talk:Hurricane Orlene (2022)#RfC - User created map or NHC Map as an non-admin, uninvolved closure. In the closing comment, Jasper Deng singled me out saying me stating a neutrally worded RfC was “inappropriate and disruptive”. Per Misplaced Pages:Closing discussions, the closing comment sure be neutrally worded. In the discussion, there was previously no mention of the discussion being disruptive or inappropriate. I then attempted to work the situation out on Jasper Deng’s talk page in User talk:Jasper Deng#Request for a strikethrough. My request for the comment to be made more neutrally worded (with support from myself, the RfC starter on the closure) was met twice with no. Based on their full wording of the discussion closure, “Elijahandskip In light of the RfC we already had, this is inappropriate and disruptive. At the least, this is the wrong forum; such a change would have to be projectwide and discussed at WT:Weather. We will not be using the NHC-made maps.”, I highly suspect this user should not have closed the discussion as they appear to be biased and refusing to stay neutral in their closing remarks. The comment sounds more like something you would see in a RfC comment, not a closing discussion remark. In closing discussions, one person should not be singled out under any condition, let alone being pinged in the closing remarks.

As such, I request the closure to be overturned and request a new person to close the discussion (As noted on Jasper Deng’s talk page, I support the closure of the discussion). Jasper Deng also appears to not have any idea about how to properly close discussions, so a potential warning or topic-ban from closing discussions should be considered until they can properly show that they understand how to stay neutral in closing discussions. Elijahandskip (talk) 01:22, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

• Important Extra Note: Discussion was originally started at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Jasper Deng’s closing of a discussion, but was noted to have been placed at the wrong venue due to it involving an RfC. This is an exact copy/paste of the discussion starting message on that page, as directed by an admin. Elijahandskip (talk) 01:22, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
• Comment. From what I can gather, this is a dispute among the members of the same project about an article within the scope of that project that implicates a possible WP:CONLEVEL-type conflict of consensuses where on one side there is the outcome the project-wide RfC (involving a template with a pre-collapsed portion of the caption), and on the other there are MOS:COLLAPSE and MOS:PRECOLLAPSE. This should have been addressed in a dialogue about: (1) whether objectively there is a discrepancy; (2) how to resolve the ostensible discrepancy, probably within Template:Storm path. Has there been a significant discussion about the appropriateness of collapsing? The underlying cause for this appearing on a noticeboard is how the RfC starter was talked to prior to starting the RfC: "no consensus", "works fine", "no reason to change" (ignoring the stated reason). So maybe something needs to be done to help these editors move along, and ANI definitely didn't seem like the right environment for that. But I'm not sure if I'm correct on all the facts; I prefer not making any further comments in this discussion. —Alalch E. 02:20, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Partially correct. The main reason I brought this to the noticeboard wasn’t more of the WP:CONLEVEL issue (as I didn’t even think of that at the time), but the improper closure of the RfC and borderline personal attacks through a non-neutrally worded closure. The WP:CONLEVEL is an issue, especially since it was used to justify closing the discussion pre-maturely. The closing comment was more of an actually !vote rather than a closing comment. That was why it was brought to the noticeboard. Somewhat a stem off of WP:CONLEVEL, which was the justification for the closure. So I see two interlaced problems: the WP:CONLEVEL closure ideology and the use of the RfC closure as a way to “get back” at what the person calls a “disruptive” editor. Elijahandskip (talk) 02:34, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

• This is getting out of hand. What do we need to do in order to curb these ongoing incidents? Is it now necessary, as Robert McClenon suggested, to declare that weather and tropical cyclones in particular are contentious topics?--⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 12:31, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

  Some topics are contentious topics because they have battleground editing because they are regions of the world that have been historical battlegrounds where people have died. Tropical storms also tragically cause human deaths. Does that in turn mean that tropical storms are subjects of battleground editing? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:18, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think in this case it is because of people who have died, but for some reason the Wikiprojects around weather-related topics seem to have become a hotbed of WP:OWNership, WP:CONLEVEL issues and off-wiki canvassing to an extent I haven't seen since WP:EEML in the ancient times. The latest big dust-up is at WP:ARBWPTC (I know you're aware of this, I'm more summarizing to give context for people who may not be). Contentious Topics, Discretionary Sanctions and General Sanctions are typically declared not because the topic itself is contentious, but because there are repeated user conduct disputes that the normal tools the community has are unable to break. The Shakespeare authorship question, for example, hasn't killed anybody as far as I know but is still designated a Contentious Topic. While AE wouldn't be adept at dealing with off-wiki coordination due to the private nature of evidence, it might not be a bad idea for AE to get a crack at handling the conduct disputes. Perhaps it could be folded in with WP:ARBCC to cover "weather, storms and climate change" by motion in the same way that WP:GENSEX was created. Community-level General Sanctions could also be another option. Additionally, it might be a good idea to hold a Community-wide RFC to discuss CONLEVEL and the role of WikiProjects versus local talkpages in determining consensus, since it might need to be updated or clarified. The Wordsmith 16:29, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

  User:The Wordsmith - I was being sarcastic about the deaths. But, in my opinion, there are at least two classes of contentious topics. There are those that are contentious because of nationalistic editing, because the subject matter is inherently contentious, and those that are contentious because one or more editors are just stubborn. And you know that I was aware of an ArbCom case in which I provided evidence. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:49, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

  Exactly I saw that you had posted evidence on the case, so I made a note indicating that my summary was more for other editors who hadn't seen the history. And noted on the sarcasm, it can sometimes be hard to pick up on in a place like this. The Wordsmith 19:37, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

  Yes. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:49, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

  At the moment, the biggest problem with the Weather/Tropical Cyclone projects at is that we have just updated the general colour scheme, which is/was expected to cause a lot of disruption, as this is a big and major change that several people who use our maps don't like and want RV'd but were needed for us to meet Misplaced Pages's standards around accessibility criteria. I will note that during the various discussions surrounding the colours, an RFC was held that went over the track maps in detail and noone brought up using the NHC maps. Probably because it creates problems around what maps to use in other basins, where we are not able to use maps from the RSMC/TCWC for various reasons, including them not being generated or being allowed on Misplaced Pages for copyright reasons.Jason Rees (talk) 20:03, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

  That seems odd. Per the closing remarks in the RfC I started about NHC maps, Jasper Deng eluded to it already being discussed, saying “We will not be using the NHC-made maps” while calling the discussion, “innapropriate and disruptive”. But on the noticeboard discussion, you point blank just said it was never brought up? So what, WP:CONLEVEL and WP:OWN are legit major issued right now. Jasper Deng solely closed an RfC, speaking for the WikiProject as a whole, for a discussion that had not taken place before. That right there seems to be enough grounds to support a topic ban from closing discussions. Jasper Deng has edited Misplaced Pages for a long time (over 14 years), and clearly has an understanding of the rules and processes on Misplaced Pages. What is everyone’s thoughts on the topic-ban proposed? Elijahandskip (talk) 20:23, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

@Elijahandskip: My best advise for this whole issue, drop the stick. - FlightTime (open channel) 20:50, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

@Elijahandskip: I feel that you are overreacting here and trying to open Pandoras Box just for the sake of opening it here, as it almost certainly has been discussed somewhere on Wiki over the last 20 years, but I only looked at the Colour RFC, rather than the 50+ archives of WPTC/WPWX. If it hasn't its probably because its obvious that it would cause problems with what maps to use in other basins, where we are not able to use maps from the RSMC/TCWC/JTWC becasue they are not generated or allowed on Misplaced Pages because of copyright.Jason Rees (talk) 21:04, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Definitely. I'm frustrated with the way WikiProject has become, and I think a community solution to handle this WikiProject (or making weather a contentious topic) is urgently needed to put a stop the drama that had consumed the WikiProject for some years, maybe ever since 2016-17. MarioJump83 (talk) 07:24, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

• I note the topic is already mentioned on EEng's very useful list. That should be enough to give the participants cause to think about what people in general think about their obsession. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:39, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

  LOL. MarioJump83 (talk) 07:24, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment – I will say that it is highly embarrassing to have yet another noticeboard incident out of this Wikiproject, and it is sad that this project is quickly becoming known to many editors as one of the biggest problem areas across the whole encyclopedia. United States Man (talk) 22:40, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

  It's making weather-interested users to look bad by this point. MarioJump83 (talk) 07:24, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Wikimania 2023 Welcoming Program Submissions

[Crosspost from WP:VPM

Do you want to host an in-person or virtual session at Wikimania 2023? Maybe a hands-on workshop, a lively discussion, a fun performance, a catchy poster, or a memorable lightning talk? Submissions are open until March 28. The event will have dedicated hybrid blocks, so virtual submissions and pre-recorded content are also welcome. If you have any questions, please join us at an upcoming conversation on March 12 or 19, or reach out by email at wikimania@wikimedia.org or on Telegram. More information on-wiki.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by MediaWiki message delivery (talk • contribs) 15:44, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Bruno Rene Vargas – topic ban violation

@Bruno Rene Vargas: is topic banned from moving pages. @Dreamy Jazz: and @Cullen328: have previously blocked him for violations as articulated here and here. He has again breached the spirit of the block. Draft:The Movie Critic was created by an IP editor on the 14th, and a couple of hours later, Bruno deleted the content to redirect to an older draft that was earlier deleted (he has recently returned to Misplaced Pages and has been getting older deleted draftworks restored despite if they were earlier recreated by someone else). His time away has not prompted a change in his edit behaviors. Rusted AutoParts 20:43, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Well, hopefully they give me a permanent and indefinite blockade just like in the Spanish Misplaced Pages. I'm tired of trying to contribute here and then being persecuted by users like you who know how to point out other people's mistakes but can't recognize their own. I retired for two years, I tried to start editing here again but I see that this will never change. Now if I withdraw permanently and I myself ask for my definitive block, thank you very much. Bruno Vargas _{Eñe'ẽ avec moi} 20:49, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't wish to have to keep having conflict here, but the persistent editing tactics you have been previously been blocked over makes it hard to. You left for a period of time, yes, but you essentially just kept doing what was the cause of many an editors frustrations. We wouldn't be here if that stopped but it unfortunately has not. Rusted AutoParts 20:53, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Well, the one who requested that editions that contributed little or nothing to the draft that I create years ago be recovered was you, and you did that only so that I also did not appear as the creator of the article just because you were not satisfied with the decision that I take the administrator. In addition, you are the one who spends time looking at my edition history and looking for the slightest error on my part to come and report it. But now I don't care exactly about the decision that is made here, I myself ask again that they block me permanently so as not to return even from here at a time in case I want to return. I, Bruno Rene Vargas, request my permanent block on the day of the date. Bruno Vargas _{Eñe'ẽ avec moi} 21:03, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

This thread is about the Untitled Quentin Tarantino film draft edits. Rusted AutoParts 21:05, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

What do you think about this 🖕🏽? Bruno Vargas _{Eñe'ẽ avec moi} 21:08, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Don't you two have some sort of interaction ban? You've been at each other at ANI and elsewhere for so many years i can't believe that's not in place. DeCausa (talk) 21:11, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

One was discussed but never came to fruition. I think he had either left the site for a period of time or the matter died down. Rusted AutoParts 21:20, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

• Without looking into the topic ban itself, I've blocked Bruno Rene Vargas for 48 hours for the above comment. Isabelle Belato 21:14, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

  @Isabelle Belato See the ANI here 2600:8801:CA05:EF00:2992:69E4:7BD:B2A5 (talk) 22:47, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

• I would have been willing to remind Bruno Rene Vargas that he has a topic ban and that he must not violate it moving forward. A simple, "oh, OK," might have sufficed. However, the explosively inappropriate response here leaves me cold. Perhaps extending the block to one week as a firmer reminder of the topic ban and of the conduct issues is needed. The IBAN between Rusted AutoParts and Vargas is needed as well. Assuming Vargas does not wind up indeffed.-- Deepfriedokra (talk) 01:41, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

  It looks like per this users page, User:Bruno Rene Vargas has permanently retired. I’m assuming a heat of the moment retirement. 2600:8801:CA05:EF00:2992:69E4:7BD:B2A5 (talk) 09:51, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

  Well, we may as well just unblock him and get on with our day. Yes, retirement after a sanction is most often regarded as an effort to avoid further sanctions by making other users think that the disruption has stopped for good. However, Wiki-retirement is not binding in any sense, and some editors will claim to be "fully retired" while still participating in discussions or article editing. In this case, it's likely an off-shoot of WP:ANIFLU.--⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 12:08, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

  I have to fully agree. Perhaps an indef block as a going away present? When they are willing to participate in a civil manner, we could consider unblocking. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 16:10, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

• I've made it an indef block, rationale (and path to lifting it) explained on the user's talk page. Courcelles (talk) 17:55, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

60.234.239.169

The blocking admin passed away last year and I don't know where else to take this. Is there a reason this IP is blocked indefinitely? I thought it was standard practice not to block IP addresses forever. Someone who's wrong on the internet (talk) 02:35, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Standard practice has evolved over the years. I've lifted the block. Honestly, I don't expect it to last that way for very long, but hopefully the next one won't be indef. -- zzuuzz 02:49, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Why is it that so much vandalism comes from schools? Someone who's wrong on the internet (talk) 03:12, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

A lot of people with a lot of time. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:25, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

And students are paired 1 to 1 with devices and use Google (which feeds to enwp) to look up stuff. Pair that with teachers being very overwhelmed and not able to monitor everything students do on those devices, and what we get is sort of inevitable. Courcelles (talk) 14:29, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

I usually like to put it down as "a bored schoolkid", altho school IPs don't only vandalize, it's just that usually they do because you can have thousands of kids on 1 IP (or 1 range of IPs). ― Blaze Wolf_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 14:39, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm actually a teacher, so have experienced daily the struggle of keeping children on task and not doing... other things. I often fail at this goal... Courcelles (talk) 18:07, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

On another note, I've added the Shared IP template to the talk page. You'd think that by the time they get to college they would stop vandalizing Misplaced Pages. Guess not. ― Blaze Wolf_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 14:45, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

The problem is every year, a fresh batch of bored people go into the computer lab and experiment. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:05, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

@Courcelles: I know what you mean. Even in adult classes for work, the mind sometimes wanders. Boredom sets in . . . . -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:13, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Other things are fine. We all need "brain breaks". We just want those not to be destructive to other's property or peace. Either in the physical classroom or cyberspace. Courcelles (talk) 18:22, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

We will never be free of this. — Trey Maturin™ 18:19, 10789 September 1993 (UTC)

Topic-banned

Товболатов (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Hello, my violation of tipped edit in several articles, especially this Feb 16th edit (Special:Diff/1139722862, Special:Diff/1139722968, Special : Diff /1139723019, Special:Diff/1139723084, Special:Diff/1139723110, Special:Diff/1139723167, Special:Diff/1139723254, Special:Diff /1139723211) User talk:Товболатов. I did not know. In the future, I promise not to do this and not break the rules. Please reconsider the topic limit. Товболатов (talk) 14:22, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

@Rosguill Tagging you as you are the admin who placed the restriction. ~ ONUnicornproblem solving 15:08, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

I have a few concerns here. One is that I stand by my prior assessment that copy-pasting the same block of contentious text across half a dozen articles as part of a prior dispute with another editor is clearly tendentious editing, to such a degree that simply saying that they didn't know it wasn't OK stretches the boundaries of AGF, especially as it came after days of informal warnings for a variety of different bad behaviors (see Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive350#Reiner_Gavriel among other archived discussions). I further have a concern that Товболатов's English skills may not be sufficient to contribute to contentious topic areas, as their participation thus far (up to and including this request) shows clear signs of relying on machine translation to participate here, and has led to significant communication difficulties in resolving discussions with other editors. Meanwhile, their editing history to other topics since the ban is practically non-existent, giving the impression that their intent is to continue to be a WP:SPA in a contentious topic area, rather than to build an encyclopedia. Finally, there is also an unresolved sockpuppet investigation where a CU has found some evidence of sockpuppetry but it has yet to be closed. _signed, Rosguill 15:23, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

• Endorse and maintain Topic Ban. I see no indication the TBAN is no longer needed.-- Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:09, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

• • Thanks for the reply, I don't want to edit in contentious topics. sockpuppet investigation It's not me. --Товболатов (talk) 18:34, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Well, I understand, but I will say one thing if I had a goal to argue, I would not create a doll. And I would have done as they do, changed the ip-address and provider and continued to edit. A new participant cannot immediately rule well on controversial topics. But I won't do this. Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Dzurdzuketi/Archive. I'm sorry, but I couldn't resist saying this.--Товболатов (talk) 20:00, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

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