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Revision as of 11:56, 16 April 2023 editJc37 (talk | contribs)Administrators49,003 edits response← Previous edit Revision as of 11:57, 16 April 2023 edit undoJc37 (talk | contribs)Administrators49,003 editsm indentNext edit →
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Ok, you put the header here. I'll ask straight out: What is your issue with ]? - <b>]</b> 11:44, 16 April 2023 (UTC) Ok, you put the header here. I'll ask straight out: What is your issue with ]? - <b>]</b> 11:44, 16 April 2023 (UTC)


There has been a sudden addition of wholly unused David Day book citations, across several articles in the past few minutes. :There has been a sudden addition of wholly unused David Day book citations, across several articles in the past few minutes.


There are multiple good reasons why this is undesirable. :There are multiple good reasons why this is undesirable.


1) These articles are fully (and richly) cited already. :1) These articles are fully (and richly) cited already.


2) The existing sources are either to Tolkien himself (primary, for the facts about what he wrote) or to scholars and critics. :2) The existing sources are either to Tolkien himself (primary, for the facts about what he wrote) or to scholars and critics.


3) Much of Day's output just regurgitates Tolkien's statements in the narrative text, i.e. it adds nothing. :3) Much of Day's output just regurgitates Tolkien's statements in the narrative text, i.e. it adds nothing.


4) Other Day output includes his personal pet opinions, not substantiated by any of the (very large) amount of Tolkien scholarship. He is not and does not claim to be a scholar; but he is writing (when not just copying and illustrating Tolkien) on scholarly matters, that have been covered in great depth. :4) Other Day output includes his personal pet opinions, not substantiated by any of the (very large) amount of Tolkien scholarship. He is not and does not claim to be a scholar; but he is writing (when not just copying and illustrating Tolkien) on scholarly matters, that have been covered in great depth.


5) There is no value in adding unused books to these articles; they already contain a plentiful supply of better books and research articles which are used. In other words, these are not "sources" as nothing is sourced to them. :5) There is no value in adding unused books to these articles; they already contain a plentiful supply of better books and research articles which are used. In other words, these are not "sources" as nothing is sourced to them.


Therefore, it is undesirable to add such materials. ] (]) 11:46, 16 April 2023 (UTC) :Therefore, it is undesirable to add such materials. ] (]) 11:46, 16 April 2023 (UTC)


::An author does not need to be a "scholar" (however we are to define that) to be used as a reference. ::An author does not need to be a "scholar" (however we are to define that) to be used as a reference.

Revision as of 11:57, 16 April 2023

Good articlesTolkien's legendarium has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: June 14, 2021. (Reviewed version).
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WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle-earth, which aims to build an encyclopedic guide to J. R. R. Tolkien, his legendarium, and related topics. Please visit the project talk page for suggestions and ideas on how you can improve this and other articles.Middle-earthWikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earthTemplate:WikiProject Middle-earthTolkien
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Note: Though it states in the Guide to writing better articles that generally fictional articles should be written in present tense, all Tolkien legendarium-related articles that cover in-universe material before the current action must be written in past tense. Please see Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Middle-earth/Standards for more information about this and other article standards.
This article is written in British English with Oxford spelling (colour, realize, organization, analyse; note that -ize is used instead of -ise) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
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Unfinished Tales

I am surprised that Unfinished Tales is not even listed, let alone discussed. It is far more substantial than The Adventures of Tom Bombadil or Bilbo's Last Song, and I see no reason to exclude it, but I don't know Tolkien research particularly well, so I may be missing something?--Verbarson (talk) 21:55, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

We basically have to go by what scholars write; and no text article can (or should) be exhaustive, but I've managed to work in a brief mention. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:29, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Addition of unused David Day sources

Ok, you put the header here. I'll ask straight out: What is your issue with David Day? - jc37 11:44, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

There has been a sudden addition of wholly unused David Day book citations, across several articles in the past few minutes.
There are multiple good reasons why this is undesirable.
1) These articles are fully (and richly) cited already.
2) The existing sources are either to Tolkien himself (primary, for the facts about what he wrote) or to scholars and critics.
3) Much of Day's output just regurgitates Tolkien's statements in the narrative text, i.e. it adds nothing.
4) Other Day output includes his personal pet opinions, not substantiated by any of the (very large) amount of Tolkien scholarship. He is not and does not claim to be a scholar; but he is writing (when not just copying and illustrating Tolkien) on scholarly matters, that have been covered in great depth.
5) There is no value in adding unused books to these articles; they already contain a plentiful supply of better books and research articles which are used. In other words, these are not "sources" as nothing is sourced to them.
Therefore, it is undesirable to add such materials. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:46, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
An author does not need to be a "scholar" (however we are to define that) to be used as a reference.
Everything else that you note is essentially WP:IDONTLIKEIT or WP:ITSNOTUSEFUL, so none of that holds any water outside of subjective opinion.
I'm not strongly tied to the additions, I just think the removal is more than a little heavy handed, and am really not as yet seeing a good reason for the removals. - jc37 11:56, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
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