Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:05, 13 June 2023

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Lillie Langtry article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 30 days

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography: Actors and Filmmakers This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Jersey Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jersey, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jersey on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JerseyWikipedia:WikiProject JerseyTemplate:WikiProject JerseyJersey Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. London Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject London, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of London on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LondonWikipedia:WikiProject LondonTemplate:WikiProject LondonLondon-related Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. European Microstates: Monaco This article is within the scope of WikiProject European Microstates, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of European Microstates on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.European MicrostatesWikipedia:WikiProject European MicrostatesTemplate:WikiProject European MicrostatesEuropean Microstates ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Monaco (assessed as Low-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. United States Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Sexology and sexuality: Sex work Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sexology and sexuality, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of human sexuality on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Sexology and sexualityWikipedia:WikiProject Sexology and sexualityTemplate:WikiProject Sexology and sexualitySexology and sexuality Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the Sex work task force (assessed as Low-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Women's History Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women's history and related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Women's HistoryWomen's History Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

A fact from this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the On this day section on October 13, 2017 and October 13, 2021.

Copyrighted text?

A large portion of this entry is a direct cut-and-paste from the "History of the Langtry Manor" section of the Langrty Manor homepage (http://www.langtrymanor.co.uk/history.htm). The Langtry Manor text is copyrighted and no permission from the owners is seen.

"This text is reprinted here with permission of the Howard Family" at the bottom seems pretty explicit. It ought to be rewritten in a "more encyclopedic" style, but until we get a letter from the owners to the effect that the permission statement in the article is erroneous, I don't we need to worry about it. Stan 05:05, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Might it be an idea to move the Langtry Manor text to Langtry Manor? It is rather more about the history of the house than the life and works of Lillie herself. Man vyi 14:32, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)

Lillie Langtry and Hampstead

Is there any direct contemporary evidence that Lillie Langtry lived in Alexandra Road, Hampstead? Her cousin the well known Hampstead politician Philip Hemery Le Breton (1806-1884) is said in the Victoria County History for Middlesex, vol. 9, pages 60-63, to have lived at Leighton House in Alexandra Road in the 1870s. Lillie is there, said to have been another inhabitant. However, it seems from his other known addresses that Philip was only here for a very short time. The London Encyclopaedia, edited by Ben Weinreb and Christopher Hibbert (1983) page 16, says that Lillie lived here "behind a high brick wall at Leighton House" which (now that other details of her biography have been established in some detail) seems most unlikely. Perhaps she visited her cousin when he was here, but again evidence seems lacking. The eastern end of Alexandra Road was named Langtry Road in 1967. AnthonyCamp (talk) 11:00, 11 June 2017 (UTC).

Inspector Colombo: Two bytes worth considering: (1) "... while the rest of the estate was 'well-to-do, middle-class'. (fn. 26) Inhabitants included Lillie Langtry, a cousin of the local politician Philip Le Breton, who lived in Leighton House in Alexandra Road in the 1870s, the Harmsworth family at no. 94 Boundary Road from 1874 to 1888, and Herbert Spencer, the philosopher, at no. 64 Avenue Road from 1889 to 1897. (fn. 27) Samuel Palmer, of the biscuit firm, lived at no. 40 College Crescent, a large house called Northcourt built in 1881. (fn. 28) Source: https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/middx/vol9/pp60-63#anchorn26 (2) Now, when you check the reference in the quote above (fn.26) you will realize the source (of this information which includes the reference to Lillie) could date back to 1889 (...)

A. Camp: Lillie Langtry did not meet the Prince of Wales until the dinner given by Sir Allen Young on 24 May 1877. What one needs in this connection are a few more facts and far less speculation and wild imagining. AnthonyCamp (talk) 09:08, 11 July 2020 (UTC).

Inspector Colombo: In my reply to Mr. Camp (below) I was referring to an early comment (investigation leads really) which I unfortunately deleted when updating the two above points - and earlier points (mine) had become irrelevant as my investigation went on. Reply: Are you saying that the date of 24 May 1877 is incompatible? Incompatible with 103 Alexandra Road? With Lillie staying there now and then for short or longer periods, sometime between 1877-1880? Look at these as "working hypotheses" - based on common sense and the mores of the time. Who knows if the dots were accidentally joined?

LATER ADDENDA

Inspector Colombo: The main section's recent addition does not provide conclusive evidence (or bona fide sources) that Electra Yaras, Adrienne Corri et al, invented such a story for their own ends.

Electra may have been telling a story she had heard from others (adding to it her paranormal experiences). Lillie's name or that of her cousin Philip Le Breton needed not to be in any register. Please read on (Laura Beattie's admonition below).

Also, Anita Leslie ("The Marlborough House Set") was likely to have had her own bona fide sources. Her great aunt was Winston Churchill's mother Jennie, said to have had (or "not have had") an affair with the king. I don't see her book having to rely on the Evening Standard's 1965 feature, for a description of Leghton House. It was more likely that it was the other way around. The way I see it, this is the problem with an Occam's Razor approach, which is vaguely reminiscent of Procrustes approach! Ref. https://www.britannica.com/topic/Procrustes

Also, let us not forget Laura Beattie's admonition, "Lillie was a master at covering her tracks. Like all of her generation who availed themselves of the fin de siècle loosening of morals, she was fanatically discrete" (adding) "important people like the Prince of Wales and the Marquess of Hartington had private secretaries who were responsible for their good character" ("Lillie Langtry: Manners, Masks and Morals").

The other detail is...

Where is the evidence that Leighton House was named after Leighton Buzzard (Bedfordshire) or for that matter that Samuel Litchfield's wife was from there? Sources? The author's blog? The Camden New Journal? No details are given in either. Probably there is evidence, except the researchers are not telling us. Also, the idea that those high walls (Leighton House) were common is not computing. Not from the photo they provide of old Alexandra Road (...)

This is not a thorough approach to research. It brings us back to what Max Arthur, OBE ("Lost Voices of the Edwardians") said: "There is often no stronger proof than rumour concerning historical anecdotes and speculation - and often no stronger proof is needed".

The investigation goes on.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Inspector Colombo (talk • contribs) 18:31, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

A. Camp: If you confine your investigation to 103 Alexandra Road (in the period when Lillie Langtry was supposed to be living there) you will soon see that the man who built it, Samuel Litchfield (1819-1894), a dealer in antique furniture, had for some years (as the London Post Office directories show) premises at 19 Green Street, Leicester Square, and at 28-30 Hanway Street, Oxford Street. He had married at St Marylebone in 1846 Catherine Helen Collings (1817-1885) and in 1861 the census tells us that he was living at 26 Belsize Road, Hampstead, and that his wife and his mother-in-law (who was living with them), were born at Leighton Buzzard. The City of Westminster Polls show that he voted in respect of the Green Street property as from 103 Alexandra Road from 1873 to 1875 but in 1876 moved to Coppins, Iver, Buckinghamshire, where he lived until 1881 when he moved to Cheshunt, Hertfordshire.

Inspector Colombo: Most the information you provide here is superflous. The only relevant byte was that about Samuel Litchfield - namely that in "1876 he moved to Coppins, Ive!". What you are telling us is that those polls place him there between 1873-1875 ONLY - and what we are after here IS: who stayed there on-and-off between 1877-1880? That is the question!

A. Camp (continued): No 103 was taken by William George Strickland, a master tailor, who in 1871 had lived at 71 Boundary Road, Hampstead, and employed some 30 hands. The 1881 Census of No 103 shows him and his family and two servants occupying the whole house with Thomas Harden, a gardener, his wife and a son who was a groom, also there. Strickland died at 32 Priory Road, Kilburn, in 1891, and by 1884 the Directories shown that No 103 was occupied by Alfred Savill. Samuel Mayne Frankstein, an oil merchant and dry salter, was there in 1891, and it seems that the house remained a single family residence until 1945 when its lease for twelve and a half years, with vacant possession, was auctioned, and its furniture sold on 20 June 1945 . Presumably this was the lease that Mrs Yaras bought. Thereafter, the house, which had twelve or so main rooms, was sub-divided, the Electoral Registers showing Electra and Romuald Yaras there with about ten other couples from 1956 onwards. The publicity given to the house in newspapers in 1971 (The Times on 8 October 1871 and the Daily Telegraph on 9 October 1971) gave ample information to Anita Leslie for her book, which came out the following year. AnthonyCamp (talk) 15:27, 8 June 2021 (UTC).

Inspector Colombo: Again, too much irrelevant information. What you are NOT telling us, IS the year William George Strickland took over 103 Alexandra Road. All you are telling us (or those records are telling you) is that he and his family are on voting records for 1881 - repeat 1881 - in connection with 103 Alexandra Road AND that Samuel Litchfield left 103 Alexandra Road in 1875-76 (as per Census and London Post Office Records).

BUT what did those records tell you about the "critical period between 1877-1880? Nothing? That is the question and you know that.

Just one aside in connection with Leighton Buzzard and Leighton House, if I may - a bit of lateral thinking I am inclined to agree with but, by the same token, I have to pose this question to you: Did you know there is a place in Leighton Buzzard named "Langtry Court"? What should we make of it? Any suggestions? Source (several): https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/uprn/10002271577/

TO SUMMARIZE:

(1) Litchfield (assuming the data you collecteItalic textd is correct) left 103 Alexandra Road in 1875 (-76 at the most). (2) The Prince's affair with Lillie, as you point out, was between 1877-1880 at the most. (3) NOW, was Strickland - the master tailor - already living at 103 Alexandra Road in that period (1877-1880)? According to your records Litchfield left in 1875 (-76 at the most) and Strickland does not appear on record as living there until 1881. So I must infer that you don't know and/or that those registers are not telling you either. Correct?

THE QUESTIONs REMAIN:

(a) Was Strickland living at 103 Alexandra Road between 1877-1880? (b) YES or NO? (c) And if NO - then WHO? (d) And if YES - what evidence do you have, such was the case? Checkable sources with links, please. Thank you.

I need not remind you that "Important people like the Prince of Wales and the Marquess of Hartington had private secretaries who were responsible for their good character" (Laura Beattie's in "Lillie Langtry: Manners, Masks and Morals"). I suspect that "reputation management" in those days could take many forms, "special arrangements" (with master tailors if necessary particularly those from Savile Row); erasing and falsifying records (if needed be) - particularly when you consider the parties involved! A future king, on the one hand, and a lady whose cousin was the MP for the Hampstead area, on the other (...) Lateral thinking is of the essence! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inspector Colombo (talk • contribs) 01:46, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

You ask where Lillie Langtry was between 1878 and 1880. There is no mystery about that and the details appear in Laura Beatty's 1999 book. Lillie and her husband leased 17 Norfolk Street, Park Lane, early in 1878 (a small house with a tiny staff) and gave it up in October 1880. Her husband was hardly ever there except in the early days and Lillie used his absences to entertain a variety of gentlemen including Arthur Jones, the Prince of Wales and Lord Shrewsbury. She sometimes muddled her afternoon callers and Wilfrid Scawen Blunt's diary (quoted by Beatty, page 165) noted that on one occasion the Prince came and was not pleased to find Shrewsbury there. There was obviously no need for her to go anywhere else. AnthonyCamp (talk) 16:21, 18 February 2023 (UTC).

THAT WAS NOT THE QUESTION

Welcome back Sir! I am afraid you're evading the question! Again ...

The question was NOT where Lillie Langtry matrimonial home was between 1877 and 1880.

Everyone, who has researched the subject, knows that was in Mayfair - or more precisely at 17, Norfolk Street - now 19, Dunraven Street - and before that in Eaton Place, in nearby Belgravia.

The question was (and I made this very clear) whether Mr. Strickland - the master tailor from Mayfair - was living at 103 Alexandra Road between 1877-1880, as you have lead Misplaced Pages readers to believe. Simple.

POINT REMINDERS

This is what you wrote in the main page:

"No 103 (Alexandra Road) was taken (in 1876) by William George Strickland, a master tailor (evidence?) The 1881 Census of No 103 shows him and his family and two servants occupying the whole house." (quote)

I am afraid that one census document alone (for 1881) which you mentioned, does not prove Mr. Strickland and family were living at Leighton House in 1876, 1877, 1878, 1879, 1880, does it?

Do you have any other bona fide document proving that Mr. Strickland bought the lease of the place from Mr. Litchfield in 1876?

Interesting to note that those Kilburn 'storians you took under your wing, seem to have made the same jump to conclusions. I guess that's the problem with the athletic approach to problem-solving! Here is a quote from them:

"Using a variety of sources, such as the census, rate books, and electoral registers, we have looked at ALL the people who lived at Leighton House between 1870 and 1907."

They looked at "ALL the people"? Really! That's impressive! "ALL the people"! And they credit you for it. How nice of them. I can only hope the Media outlets who wrote about their scoop credited them too. Their fiction was gripping.

"We would like to thank Anthony Camp MBE, the former director of the Society of Genealogists, for his help and information about Lillie Langtry."- wrote the Kilburn 'storians.

THE SOG

You were a director of the SOG? And an MBE at that! Mamma mia!

Adrienne Corri - the talented actress you cast as a fictile character in your version of events - was also a member of the SOG! And an Art expert at that! Which for the purpose of our investigation, counts more than an MBE. No disrespect intended.

Incidentally, if I remember correctly, she had a few words to say about your society in general, and you in particular. This was in a book she wrote in 1984 entitled ... let me think ... "The Search for Gainsborough"! That's it!

Where did I put it?

Aspettare!

I found it! Here it is!

Page 58!

On her diary for June 13th 1978 Adrienne wrote and I quote:

"I have joined the Society of Genealogists in South Kensington, a glorious muddle of information and confusion...there is a certain amount of upmanship from the staff...Mr. A.J. Camp the expert on wills, thinks I am an idiot and shows it. I am determined to prove him wrong".

Which she proceeded to do with great aplomb. Never underestimate a refined lateral thinker with investigative skills (...)

Something just occurred to me! You don't hold a grudge against her, do you Sir? Just asking ...

I particularly liked that later paragraph (p.262) in which she wrote:

"To make an honest mistake is not the end of the world, but to have lost the wish to find the truth, or to deny it because it is not your truth, is bigotry." (Adrienne Corri)

THE DECONSTRUCTION OF SOME OF YOUR ASSUMPTIONs CONCERNING 17, NORFOLK STREET

Quite frankly, I didn't expect a pro who tends to rely on census, rate books, electoral registers, lease records, London post office directories, birth/death certificates and such paraphernalia, to try to prove - or evade a point - by collating, and then elaborating, a few details from a book! Including details that pertain to 1880 or thereabouts! Prego!

Let's examine some of these fallacies, shall we?

1) You state that "her (Lillie's) husband (Edward) was hardly ever there except in the early days" (Norfolk Street that is, no mention of Eaton Place). Except in the early days? How early?

Perhaps you meant early years - unless you were referring to the first few days she and her husband moved in 1878? First few weeks, say. I am sure you meant "early years". Right?

2) Then, Sir, you go into what you might call "wild-imagining" mode (not to be confused with lateral thinking!) and try to convince us that "Lillie used her husband's absences ("he was hardly there" you wrote) to entertain a VARIETY of gentlemen including Arthur Jones, the Prince of Wales and Lord Shrewsbury" (sic). Did you forget to include the bailiffs?

3) You are entitled to your own hypothesis, but "a variety of gentlemen?" That sounds like an overgeneralization, Sir, does it not? Quite a jump to conclusions ...

Looks like you have ignored a statement by the author (Laura Beattie) - on the same page - that says: "There is no further mention of elopement in her correspondence". Apparently there was just one and that dated to early 1880 (...)

4) I am familiar with Laura Beattie's work and the names you throw in to support your fallacy, but are you asking Misplaced Pages's readers to believe that at the height of the Victorian Age, Lillie was having trysts with gentlemen (inc. the PoW) in her own marital home in Norfolk Street? With resident staff? In Mayfair, of all places? That beggars belief!

Moreover! All these comings and goings taking place at a time when "the Prince was keenly spied on by the new society papers such as "Truth", "Vanity Fair" and the "World"? Which were competing for royal scoops and syndicating their scoops to the provincial press"? (Prof. Jane Ridley). No one with a modicum of common sense will believe that. Sorry.

5) Also, it is interesting to note that on the same page (p.165) Beattie refers to Scawen Blunt maliciousness in relation to Lillie, yet you seem to rely on him as a reputable source. The end justify the means, I guess.

6) Let me (politely) remind you, if I may, of what Laura Beattie writes at the very beginning of the book you quote (p.9) - perhaps to absolve herself later ...

"The sources are scarce...she (Lillie) was fanatically discreet...important people like the Prince of Wales and the Marquess of Hartington had private secretaries who were responsible for their good character...Lillie did not have the services of secretaries (reputation managers as such). She did it herself... Lillie was a master at covering her tracks".

7. Please reflect on Laura Beattie's expert statements above - not to mention Prof. Jane Ridley's - and then, when you're ready, confirm (if possible) whether Mr. Strickland - the master tailor from Mayfair - was living at 103 Alexandra Road between 1877-1880? Please add any bona fide evidence to support it if you have.

Grazie tanti!

THE BOTTOM LINE IS:

If you are unable to provide an answer for Mr. George Strickland charade (and provide bona fide evidence to support it) then we have to assume that you jumped to conclusions - in which case your mainstream argument loses its credibility, and Lillie Langtry's page must be amended accordingly. Misplaced Pages's principles must be upheld!

Inspector Colombo (talk) 16:44, 30 April 2023 (UTC) NEXT EPISODE : A LIST OF FALSE STATEMENTS AND ERRONEOUS ASSUMPTIONS

The number of such instances is increasing as my investigation proceeds.

Incidentally, I am learning a lot from Adrienne Corri's approach. She is a natural! They don't work like this in the LAPD! Nor do they in Kilburn, I assume! Inspector Colombo (talk) 23:51, 4 March 2023 (UTC).

I am sorry that this talk page, designed to discuss improvements to the article and in which good faith is assumed and personal attacks are avoided, has descended into a tirade of invective which adds nothing to the points at issue. The local historians have shown that no evidence cane be found that Lillie Langtry ever lived at 103 Alexandra Road (Leighton House), Hampstead, or ever visited the house, in the years 1877-1880 when she was involved in an affair with the Prince of Wales. The yearly City of Westminster Polls, already cited and available online, show that the house was occupied by Samuel Litchfield from 1873 to 1876 (when the entry was struck through and Coppins, Iver, Bucks, inserted) and then yearly from 1877 by William George Strickland, the retired tailor whose family appears at that address in 1881 (with a cook and housemaid and the family of Thomas Harden, a gardener), but who had himself been replaced by Alfred Savill by 1884. My quote about Electra Yarris, who lived later in the house, being 'a former actress' came from the Evening Standard for 2 April 1965. Lillie's relationship with her husband Ned, as Beatty shows, changed considerably in the summer of 1878. That writer's surname, by the way, is not Beattie though that spelling is used twelve times above. "The Referee" for Sunday, 23 June 1878, page 8, says "Mr Langtry has gone off in his yacht, but Mrs Langtry did not go with him. The husband goes to sea, his wife remains to be seen". In May 1878 three portraits of the wife were exhibited at the Royal Academy and her photographs were 'ticketed up all over the town at one shilling' - the American Register commenting 'what a nuisance it must be to be the husband of a popular belle'. On 7 August 1878 Athletic News (page 4) asked 'I wonder how it is no one ever hears of Mr Langtry! Is there such a person, or is Mrs Langtry a widow'. The couple visited Jersey together in September 1878 but a year later Beatty says that Ned 'disappeared constantly' (Beatty, 159), and Lillie was living (as the Prince said) 'en garcon', though Ned 'appeared unannounced every now and again' (Beatty, 163). She met Jones then on 'long visits' to Brighton (seeing Jones at his mother's house at Worthing; Beatty, 14)). Beatty is not always correct and in 1999 she still writes several times of Lillie's house at Bournemouth, built for her by the Prince, when that myth had been challenged and destroyed some years earlier. AnthonyCamp (talk) 11:59, 10 May 2023 (UTC).

Bentornato signore! Let's have a look at what you have to say today, Sir! Hmm.

(1) "I am sorry that this talk page, designed to discuss improvements to the article and in which good faith is assumed, and personal attacks are avoided, has descended into a tirade of invective which adds nothing to the points at issue." (quote/unquote)

What you call a "tirade of invectives" and "personal attacks" Sir, is called "peer review" in Science. The same applies in any serious investigation and dare I say ... Misplaced Pages work.

"Peer review" is a process of ensuring that new research is original and uses valid science. It is used in all areas of scientific and academic research activity, from life sciences to astrophysics and psychology to social sciences".

Peer review can be rather robust at times, admittedly, but no animosity is necessarily implied. It is often a stratagem to fire-test the conclusions arrived at by a third party. Add to it the character and mise-en-scène of Inspector Colombo. He may not have added anything to "the points at issue", but that is just your humble opinion, Sir.

Please allow me to offer you another good example of a blunder. Your blunder, Sir. Please read on!

(2) "My quote about Electra Yarris (sic) who lived later in the house, being 'a former actress' came from the Evening Standard for 2 April 1965."(quote/unquote)

REALLY? THAT CANNOT POSSIBLY BE TRUE, SIR!

Yarris? You meant Yaras, right? In that case, I regret to inform you that you are - how to put it? WRONG!

Nowhere in the Evening Standard, you quote, is it written that Mrs. Electra Yaras was an actress! Have a look (below). I suspect the Kilburn 'storians invented it to spice-up their "scoop". Denotation-connotation (...) I have already addressed this issue elsewhere.

It looks like that you have sourced what the local 'storians said, without taking the time to read the actual newspaper. Faux-pas Sir! This way, you risk bringing Misplaced Pages into disrepute!

For your perusal - and that of Misplaced Pages readers - I have transcribed the FULL article from the Evening Standard of 2 April 1965 below. The one you quote. Here it is:

EVENING STANDARD, 2 APRIL 1965 FULL COPY TRANSCRIPT (microfilm original available at the British Library/St. Pancras/London)

"IT'S THE GHOST OF LILLIE LANGTRY - AS QUEER THINGS HAPPEN IN HER OLD HOME"

(Evening Standard reporter)

Tables bang in the night and voices whisper in the darkness of the Victorian house in Alexandra Road in St. John's Wood ... but the people living there do not stir from their beds. For they are convinced that the "visitor" is the ghost of Lilly Langtry, actress and society beauty of Victorian and Edwardian times.

She lived at Leighton House for a number of years. It is said that she built a glass corridor connecting the front door and the roadway so that King Edward VII could visit her in privacy.

"So many memories"

Now Leighton House, with its stained-glass windows and marble floors, has been earmarked for demolition to make way for a housing scheme.

Mrs. Electra Yaras, a dark haired Athenian who bought the lease of the "haunted house" 18 years ago, said today: "I am all in favour of progress, but it will be terrible if they pull down this historic building. It has so many memories.

"Lily Langtry's ghost appeared one day at my bedroom door and asked if I would like to have a baby boy. Some time later, my son was born in that very room" - her old boudoir.

Mrs. Yaras, 39-year-old step-daughter of General Theodorus Pangalos, a Greek leader of the 1920s, admits that her first encounter with the Jersey Lily's ghost was a little frightening.

"I awoke to see a book I had been reading banging up and down on the bedside table" She said: "My husband woke too...we were powerless to move. But I have become used to her visits now. It was with her approval that I converted the stables of Leighton House into a studio".

Mrs Yaras who works as a tour director (bolds and underline mine) and has travelled throughout Europe, claims she has seen Lily Langtry "vanishing over the garden rockery into a misty cloud."

"Painted cherubs"

The decorations of many of the rooms at Leighton House have not been touched since her departure. Painted cherubs still dance on the ceiling of the drawing room, and the adjoining conservatoire retains the original tapestries and woodcarvings. As she surveyed the house, Mrs. Yaras said; "It would be wonderful if all this could be saved when the new flats are built here".

(Transcribed with tacit agreement from the Evening Standard)

Oops! La prego di scusarmi, Signore!  I shall have to address some of your other erroneous assumptions later (mostly logical fallacies) as I am pressed for time. I have a real investigation going-on. LAPD just paged me (smiles).

Inchino profondo a te Signore!

Ciao!

Inspector Colombo (talk) 18:03, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Sorry Sir! I am back! Where were we? Oh! Yes! You were trying to provide "evidence" that Mr. Edward Langtry or "Ned" - Lillie's husband - was hardly ever at home (Norfolk Street) whereas your source, Laura Beatty - states that her husband was "ever watchful". Here, you have also attempted to clarify some details concerning Leighton House/103, Alexandra Road. Grazie Signore!

(3) "The yearly City of Westminster Polls, already cited and available online, show that the house was occupied by Samuel Litchfield from 1873 to 1876 (when the entry was struck through and Coppins, Iver, Bucks, inserted) and then yearly from 1877 by William George Strickland" (quote/unquote)

Probably it won't matter, but just in case it does. Do you happen to know exactly "when the entry was struck through"? Was it in 1873? 1874? 1875? 1876? Source as quoted? Oui? Non?

"And then yearly from 1877 by William George Strickland". Meaning 1877, 1878, 1879, 1880 and so on. Is that it? Just to make sure! Grazie Signore!

Let me recap - if I may, Sir ...

Samuel Litchfield (assuming the data you collected is correct) built Leighton House (103 Alexandra Road) in 1873 and (you assumed) named it after his wife's place of birth - Leighton Buzzard. Then just three (3) years later in 1876, he sold the house or lease to William G. Strickland and left. Bye! Bye!

The Prince's affair with Lillie, according to cited sources was, between 1877-1880 at the most but, we also know, that their friendship lasted many, many years. In fact, it looks as if it never ended. Perhaps we should keep that in mind, just in case.

So, according to you Sir, William George Strickland, was living at 103, Alexandra Road during the 1876-1880 period.

My previous understanding of your theory was, that Samuel Litchfield left in 1876, and that William G. Strickland did not appear on record as living there, until the 1881 Census - leading you to assume that he had been there as far back as 1876.

Now you are telling us that the "yearly City of Westminster polls" prove (as if it were) that Strickland was living there in 1876-77-78-80 even before he appears in the Census in 1881. Is that so, Sir? Let's assume so.

Better still! Let's test the link you suggest by placing it on a search engine! Here we go: "Yearly City of Westminster Polls" - adding "103 Alexandra Road" for good effect.

Oops!

When we place "Yearly City of Westminster Polls + 103 Alexandra Road" on a search engine, we get something along the lines:

"General elections: See details of our polling places, dates and deadlines, and results of the most recent General elections"

General elections? Polls? Did I miss something?

Are you sure you have given us a proper link or, like in the case of Electra "Yarris", you were just quoting a source, without double-checking it? No criticism implied. Just saying, Sir.

OK? Let us assume the data you have given Misplaced Pages is bona fide. Fingers crossed!

Now, if these dates are for real, Mamma mia! that could be ground-breaking!

"Ground breaking? Why?" I hear you asking ...

William G. Strickland was, for all we know, a bespoke tailor in Mayfair (Clifford Street) right around the corner and almost next door to Henry Poole in Saville's Row!

How could you possibly have missed that, Sir? This was not the Strickland in question? Maybe he was! Did you check that?

And if he was, the two could have been friends! At the very least they were neighbours and colleagues - that much the data is telling us!

You see, Sir, the Prince of Wales - as well as Lillie Langtry - were Henry Poole's customers!

https://henrypoole.com/individual/lillie-langtry/ https://henrypoole.com/individual/hm-king-edward-vii/ http://www.stricklandandsons.co.uk/index.php/about/company

Lateral thinking suggests, that at some stage, Lillie and the Prince might have been acquainted with Mr. Strickland, and might even have relied on him to tailor a piece or two of apparel and erm ... whatever.

And by the way, if you feel these bytes are not enough, here is another thought-provoking bit:

Did you know that Samuel Litchfield's son, Thomas, had an antiques' shop at 3, Bruton Street (Mayfair) - not far from Lillie's Norfolk Street address? Did you miss that too?

Ref. https://bifmo.furniturehistorysociety.org/entry/litchfield-samuel-frederick-thomas-1876-1911

Could Lillie have been Thomas Litchfield's customer around the time (1878) she was furnishing her Norfolk Street home?

Laura Beatty, one of your sources, wrote: "Lillie went out and was comprehensively hoodwinked by the antique dealers, returning with plenty of artificially worm-eaten and blackened oak for her terracotta dining room..." (op.cit. p.98)

Is it possible that the Litchfield's and the Strickland's knew each other before the sale of the house? It is, isn't it? Lateral thinking obliges...

I guess this only goes to show that Reality is far more complex than what a Census or a "poll" entry can give it credit for. Extrapolate at your own peril.

Could it be, Sir, that you and the Kilburn 'storians have been relying on simplistic sources and as a result, drawing the wrong inferences? No criticism implied!

That has happened to me many a time, in many an investigation, but like your nemesis, the talented Adrienne Corri, said:

"To make an honest mistake is not the end of the world, but to have lost the wish to find the truth, or to deny it because it is not your truth, is bigotry." (op. cit. 262)

Max Arthur's insight, again, comes to mind:

"There is often no stronger proof than rumour concerning historical anecdotes and speculation - and often no stronger proof is needed" (in "Lost Voices of the Edwardians")

(4) "Lillie's relationship with her husband Ned, as Beatty shows, changed considerably in the summer of 1878." (quote/unquote)

Somehow in some-way, it probably did - if Beatty says so, but what's your point Sir?

Remember, you are trying to provide "evidence" that Mr. Edward Langtry or "Ned" - Lillie's husband - was "hardly ever there" at home (Norfolk Street) whereas your source, Laura Beatty - states that he was "ever watchful".

Probably the answer lies in the dates/periods. Your assumption being that Lillie did not need to have her trysts with the Prince elsewhere - like St. John's Wood's Leighton House. Her marital house in Mayfair, would do. Right-ho!

So, their "relationship changed". Assuming it did. How did it change? Does she say?

Are you trying to suggest (denotation & connotation) that Mr. Langtry was no longer chaperoning Lillie? "Ever watchful" as she put it? Any evidence? Any specifics?

Beatty does write that "Ned" could arrive unexpectedly - or words to that effect. Sounds like that could have instilled in Lillie a kind of "conditioned reflex"!

(5) The Referee for Sunday, 23 June 1878, page 8, says "Mr Langtry has gone off in his yacht, but Mrs Langtry did not go with him. The husband goes to sea, his wife remains to be seen" (quote/unquote)

How long did he "go to sea"? Did the journo say? Was it for an afternoon or two? Was it a few days? A week? A month? Did Ned go sailing solo around the world? Again, no specifics.

"His wife remains to be seen". So? What was the journo trying to tell his readers?

That she locked herself at home? That she went to live off Loudoun Road - like Jane Belmond, King George VI last mistress, did? Of course not!

Ref. Mireille Galinou “Cottages and Villas – The Birth of the Garden Suburb”. (University Press, 2010) p.194.

I hope that you are not suggesting that during her husband's sailing sabbaticals, Lillie turned 17 Norfolk Street, their marital home, into a bordello of sorts. That would be preposterous!

All these comings and goings in the heart of Mayfair? With living-in staff? With reporters shadowing the house? Sorry Sir! I don't get it.

(6) Then you go on providing us with more "evidence" - and I quote: "In May 1878 three portraits of the wife were exhibited at the Royal Academy and her photographs were ticketed up all over the town at one shilling - the "American Register" commenting - 'what a nuisance it must be to be the husband of a popular belle." (quote/unquote).

What have her portraits being shown at the nearby Academy, have to do with whether her husband was away or in residence? "Ever watchful" or "hardly there" - as you assumed? Looks like you have gone off on a tangent here Sir! No criticism implied!

(7) Then, you write: "On 7 August 1878 Athletic News (page 4) asked 'I wonder how it is no one ever hears of Mr Langtry! Is there such a person, or is Mrs Langtry a widow!" quote/unquote)

What was the journo's point?

That no one ever heard of "Ned" because he was mostly at home? Because he had gone sailing? Fishing? What?

Maybe Edward Langtry was not so newsworthy. He would, if he was having an affair with Princess Alexandra but that, as far as we know, was not the case. Was it?

(8) Further on, you added: "The couple visited Jersey together in September 1878 but a year later, Beatty says that Ned 'disappeared constantly' (Beatty, 159). "Lillie was living (as the Prince said) 'en garcon' (sic), though Ned 'appeared unannounced every now and again' (Beatty, 163)

Does Beatty say that? Let me see! Yes she does! On the first paragraph. My attention however was caught by the fourth paragraph which reads: "she could return to Norfolk Street at the end of the day, without the prospect of his drunken accusations to greet her, or, as she left again to the entertainments of the evening, to speed her on her way out."

Adding on the next page (p.160): "So, she and Lady Lonsdale, whose husband was equally invisible, more often than not chaperoned each other around town..." ..."chaperoned each other around town!" This in late 1879 (1880?).

One thing is for sure, Beatty is not suggesting that Lillie had turned her house into a bordello of sorts - as you seemed to imply.

This period (again no specifics) might explain the Prince of Wales reference to Lillie "living en garçon", but wasn't the Prince doing exactly same? Well, honi soit qui mal y pense (...)

ADDENDA:

Inspector Colombo (talk) 19:46, 12 June 2023 (UTC) Inspector Colombo (talk) 17:12, 12 June 2023 (UTC) Inspector Colombo (talk) 01:21, 12 June 2023 (UTC) Inspector Colombo (talk) 01:11, 12 June 2023 (UTC) Inspector Colombo (talk) 23:22, 10 June 2023 (UTC) Inspector Colombo (talk) 16:25, 10 June 2023 (UTC) Inspector Colombo (talk) 17:22, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

• Beatty DOES say that Ned "disappeared constantly" on page 159, as anyone can see by reading the book, available on Archive.org Beatty, Laura (1999). "XIX: Storm Clouds". Lily Langtry: Manners, Masks and Morals. London: Chatto & Windus. p. 159. ISBN 1-8561-9513-9.. @Inspector Colombo: you MUST NOT misrepresent sources, and you MUST NOT falsely claim that another editor has. DuncanHill (talk) 11:46, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  Signor Duncan Hill! It has been a while! Come stai?

  Oops! I am afraid I did overlook that on the first paragraph, didn't I?

  There it is! "He disappeared constantly on fruitless money-raining expeditions to Ireland, and he drank". How did I miss that? It's an error, definitely! Has it ever happened to you? I am sure it has NOT! My apologies!

  I have corrected that byte now. Perfetto!

  If it helps to reduce my sentence, I did quote the third paragraph (which implies the same) and which I genuinely thought your friend was referring to in passing. Signore Camp, as you know, can be rather phlegmatic at times (...)

  "She could return to Norfolk Street at the end of the day, without the prospect of his drunken accusations to greet her, or, as she left again to the entertainments of the evening, to speed her on her way out."

  By the way, Mr. Duncan, here between us, may I suggest you use a bit more tact and diplomacy when pointing out another user's error? Avoid making it sound as a scolding!

  Always remember that Misplaced Pages belongs to all its users, not to you or those you may sympathize or be friends with (...)

  Insist in being rude, and I will report you directly to Jimmy Wales. We are working hard here to uncover the Truth. Truth has no sides. It might have enemies, but that is not my problem - nor Misplaced Pages's, dare I say!

  And since we are at it, could you please reprimand Mr A. Camp for insisting that he was quoting the Evening Standard of the 2 April 1965 when referring to Mrs. Electra Yaras a "former actress"?

  This is not true and I have told him! Nowhere, in the ES article he quotes, is such an assumption made. It is an error. Deliberate or otherwise!

  I have given him both the source (British Library) and the full transcript of the article - to no avail.

  Mr. A. Camp MUST NOT misrepresent and MUST NOT falsely claim that another editor has!

  Molte grazie! Inspector Colombo (talk) 19:46, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  And here you go changing your comments after others have replied to them. PLEASE re-read Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines. Also - try to be more concise. Great walls of text with countless unrelated points are off-putting to say the least. Concision and clarity will help you get your point across. Finally, I'm not anyone's friend or sympathizer here, so you can stop claiming that I am. DuncanHill (talk) 20:05, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

A LIST OF FALSE STATEMENTS AND ERRONEOUS ASSUMPTIONS - A FOLLOW-UP

1. ERRONEOUS ASSUMPTION

In our previous Talk (above) you wrote:

“You ask where Lillie Langtry was between 1878 (sic) and 1880. There is no mystery about that and the details appear in Laura Beatty's 1999 book. Lillie and her husband leased 17 Norfolk Street, Park Lane, early in 1878 (a small house with a tiny staff) and gave it up in October 1880. Her husband was hardly ever there …“

Now let’s compare this with another quote, from the same source, you seemed to have missed.

"Prince Rudolph makes a nuisance of himself at Norfolk Street where he called at all times of day and night. When once he arrived alone and excited, having left his constant chaperone in an overturned growler in Oxford Street Lillie was forced to call upon the ever watchful Ned for protection” (Laura Beattie)

So, according to Laura Beattie, Lillie’s husband was mostly there - or “ever watchful”, as she put it.

What made you think that her husband (Ned) was “hardly ever there”?

Are we to assume that “her husband was there all the time - or “ever-watchful” - and therefore hardly ever there?” This clause does not make sense! Does it Sir?

Furthermore, we need to double check her address in Norfolk Street and take into account other dates. Please bear with me, Signore!

Reference:

Laura Beattie’s "Lillie Langtry: Manners, Masks and Morals", p.99. Chatto & Windus (1999)

2. FALSE STATEMENT

In the article’s main page you wrote: "On 2 April 1965 the Evening Standard reported an interview with the former actress Electra Yaras.”

Incorrect! Mrs. Electra Yaras was NOT an actress and had NEVER been one. She was a "tour director" - as the Evening Standard correctly reported.

References: Microfilm of the Evening Standard - 2 April 1965 edition. British Library (St. Pancras). This was confirmed by the Yaras' family.

DISCUSSION:

Why did you describe Mrs. Yaras as a "former actress"? For added effect? Denotation and ... connotation?

Turning a tour director into an actress, absurd as it may seem, may have suited your source hidden narrative and you Sir, followed suit!

Actors represent, pretend or in common parlance "lie". This is the main connotation.

The addition of a well-known actress (Adrienne Corri) - deeply disliked by your good self - further highlights the connotation, and made it all seem more plausible. Funny how the human unconscious works ...

It’s none of my business, but I suspect your grudge with Adrienne Corri can be traced back to her days as a member of the Society of Genealogists’ in the late 1970s. Am-I right? Sorry Signore! I have asked you this already in our previous talk. Moving on ...

Reference: https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095710580

3. ERRONEOUS ASSUMPTION

Your source assumed that “Lillie would never have been seen dead here.”

Oh! Really? St. John’s Wood was known as “an abode of love and the arts” – if I may paraphrase Stella Margetson.

References:

The quote above is from an interview Mr. Dick Weindling of the "Kilburn ‘storians" gave to the Daily Telegraph (2 June 2021). Micro-film available in the British Library (St. Pancras).

The paraphrase is from Stella Margetson’s title: “St. John's Wood: An Abode of Love and the Arts”. Home and Law Publishing (1988)

A SHORT LIST OF LILLIE LANGTRY'S ASSOCIATIONS WITH ST. JOHN'S WOOD:

(1) Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (of Sherlock Holmes fame) seems to have known about Lillie Langtry's - and the Prince of Wales - connection to the area, as far back as 1891! Well before the Yaras' bought the lease of the house in January 1946. I am referring to his short-story "A Scandal in Bohemia".

Central to this story is a character (Irene Adler) apparently inspired by Lillie Langtry who resided - guess where? In St. John's Wood! Just like Lillie did or is said to have done.

(2) There is at least one painting of Lillie Langtry and the Prince of Wales attending a cricket match in St. John’s Wood. This can be seen at the Lord’s Cricket Ground museum. The painting is by Sir Robert Ponsonby Staples and George Hamilton Barrable and is entitled: An Ideal Cricket Match (dated 1887). The painters, by their own admission, were just "wild imagining" things - or were they?

(3) Lillie Langtry grand-daughter - Helen Mary Malcolm (1918-2010) - lived, albeit much later, at 30, Queen's Grove (St. John's Wood). Not that far from Alexandra Road but let’s call that a synchronicity (…)

In a letter she wrote from that address (in the Yaras family archives) Helen Mary mentions two (?) other addresses that her grandmother is said to have lived in St. John’s Wood, presumably for relatively short periods - namely “Regents Park (Road?) and Regents Park canal” (quote) - probably referring to Cornwall Lodge/Allsop Place where Lillie is said to have lived "at least between 1916-1920" (main text).

(4) Just off Alexandra Road, up Loudoun Road, in a house at the corner of Marlborough Place lived Jane Belmond. "Who?". The last mistress of King George IV (1762-1830)! This was, of course, well before Bertie, Prince of Wales (1841-1910) was in full swing. Draw your won inferences, particularly bearing in mind that ...

... King George IV brother, Edward Augustus (1767-1820) was the father of Queen Victoria (1819-1901) who, in turn, was the mother of Bertie – the Prince of Wales (later Edward VII). Small world indeed.

Signore! Aspetta! Aspetta! Quasi dimenticato!

(5) Also just off Alexandra Road, somewhere in Loudoun Road, lived Molly Baker, known as Mrs. Meeres, who according to Montgomery Eyre (1913) was possibly the model for William M.Thackeray's Rebecca Sharp in "Vanity Fair" (1847-48).

References:

(1) "A Scandal in Bohemia" was first published on 25 June 1891 in the July issue of "The Strand Magazine", and was the first of the stories collected in "The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes" in 1892" (Misplaced Pages). Note the connotation of "Bohemia" with "bohemian". What is Sherlock Holmes trying to tell you? Esattamente! https://www.oxfordreference.com/search?q=bohemian

• More about the Irene Adler-Lillie Langtry connection can be found in a book by Christopher Redmond entitled: "A Sherlock Holmes Handbook", Dundurn Press. p. 51.

(2) For a photo of the Staples & Barrable painting click: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/art/what-to-see/lords-art-collection-home-cricket-cultural-identity/

(3) The evidence for Helen Mary Malcolm (Lillie Langtry’s grand-daughter) address at 30 Queens Grove is from the Yaras' family archives. An handwritten letter by Lillie's grand-daugther posted to Mrs. Yaras at 103 Alexandra Road in April 1965.

(*) Reference to Laura Beattie passage (p.9 op. cit.) (added details):

“Lillie was a master at covering her tracks (...) she was fanatically discrete (...) Important people like the Prince of Wales and the Marquess of Hartington had private secretaries who were responsible for their good character (…) Lord Esther (…) every personal letter or diary entry that was compromising was destroyed” ( op. cit. page 9)

(4) For Jane Belmond, King George IV mistress, and Molly Baker, see Mireille Galinou “Cottages and Villas – The Birth of the Garden Suburb”. (University Press, 2010) p.194. Also, Montgomery Eyre “Saint John's Wood its history, its houses, its haunts and its celebrities”. (Chapman and Hall, 1913) p.148 and p.157.

4. FALSE STATEMENT

In the main page you wrote and I quote, that “Electra Yaras – in the 1950s had bought the lease of Leighton House, 103 Alexandra Road".

Incorrect! The Yaras’ bought the lease of 103, Alexandra Road in January 1946, therefore in the 1940s NOT in the 1950s. They moved into Leighton House, on the 13 February 1946, to be precise.

Reference:

The Yaras' family archives.

5. A BUNCH OF ERRONEOUS ASSUMPTIONS

(a) Circumstances were not properly addressed. Why?

According to the “Daily Telegraph” (11/3/65 edition) the occupants of the Victorians houses in Alexandra Road, supported by their MP (Henry Brooke) were, back then, protesting against a property company scheme for redevelopment of the area. The Yaras' were just one of the hundreds, if not thousands of individual lives affected.

Years later, the Daily Telegraph (9/10/71 edition) reported that the actress Adrienne Corri – along with Sir John Betjeman and Sir Hugh Casson plus the St. John’s Wood preservation societies - were leading a campaign to save Leighton House, and I presume the area, from demolition. It was not like "Electra Yaras and her son Andrew persuaded fellow actress (sic) Adrienne Corri" as your source (the Kilburn 'storians) tried to make us believe.

Adrienne found out about the house's connection with Lille Langtry and came to visit. Simple.

(b) Why did you place Mrs. Yaras and Adrienne Corri at the centre of the story (and ignored others)?

To underline the idea that the two “actresses” had concocted the myth of Lillie Langtry? Just asking ...

(c) Why didn’t you mention Sir John Betjeman - a founding member of The Victorian Society?

(d) Why didn’t you mention Sir Hugh Casson - Director of Architecture for the 1951 Festival of Britain and from 1976 to 1984, President of the Royal Academy?

(e) What made you think that Sir John Betjeman and Sir Hugh Casson would be fooled by a story crafted by a “former actress”(sic) - and her "colleague" Adrienne Corri?

Maybe they had bona fide reasons to believe that such was the case (...)

(f) I understand that you started working for the SOG in 1956. By 1962 you were the Director of Research. Why didn’t you address this question back in 1965? Were you too busy? It was not the right time?

(g) More to the point, what made you think Mrs. Yaras was lying?

Even assuming Lillie Langtry had NO connection whatsoever with Leighton House (which remains to be proven) that, did NOT make Mrs. Yaras a liar. Did it Sir?

If you had conducted your investigation properly you would have found, to start with, that Electra Yaras was brought up in an affluent Athenian family and was privately educated in Switzerland. Suffice it to say that she spoke four or five languages fluently - including yours. She was not your average bigot, that's for sure.

I am afraid it was uncouth of you Sir to assume, that someone with Mrs. Yaras education and social standing, would concoct such a tale in the hope it might change the course of events.

Didn't it occurred to you Sir, that Mrs. Yaras was sharing information that had been given to her and her husband, around the time she bought the lease of Leighton House - back in January 1946?

Information that was further substantiated by older neighbours and/or by the Eyre Estate employees, who - back in the 1940s-1950s - would, on occasion, service the house?

Why didn’t you ask Sir Hugh Casson, Sir John Betjeman – or your nemesis Adrienne Corri – what they thought? When they were around, that is. Why did you wait for so long?

Did you try to contact the Yaras' family. You couldn't find their birth certificates? Really? You did find (and quoted) Electra Yaras death certificate (not quite clear what for). Hm.

A proper investigation ought to start by interviewing those with first hand information about the “crime scene”. Wouldn't you agree. Sir?

(h) As for the "ghost of Lillie Langtry", that cannot be simply dismissed as (yet another) of the "former actress" fantasies.

Lillie's ghost is reported to have appeared too in her former house in Mayfair (Norfolk Street) as well as in Knightsbridge (Pont Street/ The Cadogan hotel). How do you rationalize that? That The Cadogan is earmarked for demolition? All these years? I doubt.

Apparently her ghost at the The Cadogan still appears now and then, usually around Christmas time (…)

Reference:

https://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/?s=lillie+langtry+

In case you are not aware Sir, there is a considerable amount of scientific research covering all kinds of paranormal phenomena (including ghosts and apparitions) and many of these cannot be easily dismissed as taradiddle - except perhaps by the less well informed strata of the intelligentsia corps.

Reference:

https://www.spr.ac.uk/about/whos-who-spr

OUTDATED

The main article reads: "further 'remembered' in the area (...) by the Lillie Langtry public house at 121 Abbey Road (built in 1969 to replace The Princess of Wales and briefly called The Cricketers in 2007–11)"

The Lillie Langtry public house has been closed for almost a year now and the building (Emminster Estate) is being demolished. Reference:https://northlondon.camra.org.uk/viewnode.php?id=10297

There is at least one other place associated with Lillie Langtry and the Prince of Wales in the area - and another elsewhere in Queensway.

Pronto?

The investigation goes on. Stand by for further announcements.

Inspector Colombo (talk) 19:57, 30 April 2023 (UTC)Inspector Colombo Inspector Colombo (talk) 19:44, 30 April 2023 (UTC) Inspector Colombo (talk) 20:05, 30 April 2023 (UTC) Inspector Colombo (talk) 19:01, 2 May 2023 (UTC)Inspector Colombo (talk) 15:59, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

• All unassessed articles
• B-Class biography articles
• B-Class biography (actors and filmmakers) articles
• Unknown-importance biography (actors and filmmakers) articles
• Actors and filmmakers work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• B-Class Jersey articles
• Low-importance Jersey articles
• WikiProject Jersey articles
• B-Class London-related articles
• Low-importance London-related articles
• B-Class European Microstates articles
• Unknown-importance European Microstates articles
• B-Class Monaco articles
• Low-importance Monaco articles
• Monaco articles
• WikiProject European Microstates articles
• B-Class United States articles
• Low-importance United States articles
• B-Class United States articles of Low-importance
• WikiProject United States articles
• B-Class Sexology and sexuality articles
• Low-importance Sexology and sexuality articles
• B-Class Sex work articles
• Low-importance Sex work articles
• WikiProject Sexology and sexuality articles
• B-Class Women's History articles
• Low-importance Women's History articles
• All WikiProject Women-related pages
• WikiProject Women's History articles
• Selected anniversaries (October 2017)
• Selected anniversaries (October 2021)