Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:41, 28 March 2005

Restored page from obvious POV edit unfairly favoring the Iglesia Ni Cristo.

I'm a member, and I think that quote describes the INC succintly and perfectly. It has created its share of controversy, and mainly focuses on discrediting Presbyterian and Catholic ideology.

Does this part sound NPOV? "Noted for its distinctive church architecture of narrow pointed spires, it is a controversial organization that seeks to disestablish the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church, which is the predominant religion in the country."

"and many say that the Church administration was told to stop by Internal Revenue Service agents": sounds like a rumor to me. Isn't this supposed to be an encyclopedia?

Just Church of Christ

I think there is some confusion here. Unless this is talking about a different group, Iglesia ni Christo is just "Church of Christ" in another language. This article sounds like it more or less describes the Church of Christ, with some confusion from people who probably don't understand it. The Church of Christ was certainly not established in the Philippines! 69.148.82.46 17:29, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The name Iglesia Ni Cristo specifically refers to the organization created by Felix Y. Manalo.

Two Points

First of all, this group is an indigenous Filipino group and is not identical to the Church of Christ of the American Restoration Movement, which also has a major mission work in the Philippines, adding to confusion regarding the two groups. Also, both claim to be nothing more than just the continuation or restoration of the original church established by Jesus Christ; whether either group or any such group has the actual right to claim such a thing must be of needs left to a higher Authority than myself, or Misplaced Pages.

Second, yes, the name is no more than "Church of Christ" in Tagalog (Filipino).

Rlquall 23:59, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"Disestablishment"

This term needs to be cut from the article in my opinion as well. This improperly implies that the Catholic Church is officially recognized in the Republic of the Philippines as the state religion, which I do not believe to be the case. "Disestablishment" is a term of art meaning to abolish a denomination's status as an official state church. Perhaps the terms "disprove" or "dispute" should be used instead? Rlquall 00:07, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Perteinence

Does it matter that much whether a Filipino-centered group has 501(c)(3) status in the U.S. or not, or whether it endorses candidates in U.S. elections to make that a focus of the article or even merit a mention. Obviously there are Filipinos in the U.S., including members of this group, as there are in almost every country in the world, but is this really worth mentioning in an encyclopeida article about this group? Also, the alleged resemblance between its buildings and LDS buildings should either be demonstrated with (noncopyrighted) pictures or deleted IMO. Rlquall 00:02, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This article is biased

It's quite difficult to understand the INC by just leaning on what you see on the internet. While this article tries to be NPOV, certain points suggest the authors' bias against the INC:

• suggestion that the INC is a cult ("some say...")
  • Removed. INC is more of a sect than a cult. The only factor which makes it a cult is the chrurch admin's power over it's congregation. --Lbmixpro 18:45, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
• suggestion that the INC's chapels are copied from LDS chapels (again, "some say...")
  • Not all INC locales have narrow pointed spires. Other churches may also have spires. --Lbmixpro 18:45, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
• suggestion that the INC tries to meddle with US politics ("it has tried...")
  • The INC does influence voters.
• questioning the supposed "questionable move" of publishing congratulatory messages from American political leaders
• suggestion that the INC sacrifices church unity in exchange for a tax-exempt status ("many say...")
  • It would help if someone provides sources of this. --Lbmixpro 18:45, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

• Even publishing a magazine titled "God's Message" did not escape this absurd piece of "factual" junk. "Found controversial by some"?!?
  • Removed. I don't see any implications of the authors of God's Message as written from God. --Lbmixpro 18:45, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

I respectfully suggest that this article be placed in a disputed status.

• The article doesn't show an outright NPOV, so it's been put under "Biased" status.

Corrected Description

by gcessor

I tried to edit the description as is described below, but apparently the biased information could not be removed. Will those who have such access please examine the corrections suggested below in order to be more closely aligned with the Misplaced Pages policy of NPOV, and make the appropriate corrections?

Removed following: "it is a sometimes controversial organization that seeks to disestablish the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church, which is the predominant religion in it's founding country." Misplaced Pages's editorial policy is the "neutral point of view", often abbreviated "NPOV". Therefore, the information that is included about the INC should not revolve mainly around one particular issue (as with the information left by the previous author) but should either simply describe the INC or, if one believes that controversy must be included, then an equal amount of complementary material must be included. Otherwise, the information included cannot follow the Misplaced Pages's editorial policy of NPOV.

Removed "it is a sometimes controversial organization that seeks to disestablish the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church, which is the predominant religion in it's founding country"

The stated aim of the INC is not to 'disestablish' the Catholic church, but to spread the Gospel throughout the world. It is true that the INC opposes the Catholic church, but that is part of the doctrine but is NOT the 'aim' or purpose of the INC.

Changed "founded by Felix Manalo on July 27, 1914" to "registered with the Filipino government by Felix Manalo on July 27, 1914".

Changed "The Iglesia ni Cristo has grown to more than two hundred congregations in over 84 countries outside the Philippines." to "The Iglesia ni Cristo has grown to thousands of congregations within the Philippines and more than two hundred congregations in over 84 countries and territories outside the Philippines."

The above change was to give a better picture of the INC inside and outside the Philippines.

Changed "estimates place worldwide membership to 6 million" to "estimates of worldwide membership range from 3 to 10 million".

Reference found at: http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_314.html

Changed "for whichever candidate the church administrators decide in Philippine elections" to "in accordance with the guidance of the church administration in Philippine elections".

Changed "The Manila media credit the INC" to "Some Manila media credit the INC", for not all Manila media give such credit to the INC.

Deleted the following:

"It has tried to present itself on numerous occasions as being a strong political force in the United States as well. The Iglesia ni Cristo used to distribute a list of supported candidates to members before an election, along with a lesson usually the Sunday before a major election emphasizing unity to the Church administration."

and

"During the mid-1990's it published letters in the "God's Message" magazine from various American political leaders congratulating the INC on its anniversary, with a short article talking about the growth of the INC in America which led to such recognition. That was found to an extremely questionable move, on both its motives and origins, since one does not necessarily have to be the leader of a large organization to receive a form letter with preprinted signature that are available to anyone on request from an elected official's representative office to celebrate a birthday, anniversary or similar occasion."

and

"Support of political candidates and organizations by non-profit organizations are illegal under IRS Section 501(c)3 rules, and it's been rumored that the Church administration was told to stop by Internal Revenue Service agents under penalty of having their tax-exempt status revoked. Before the presidential election of 2000, the Iglesia Ni Cristo shocked many by saying that it would not endorse anyone and has not publically endorsed any candidate in a U.S election since."

These are not unbiased statements. It seems the author is more interested in pointing out what he believes to be wrong with the INC and is including statements and opinions that belong on a forum rather than in an UNBIASED description in an encyclopedia.

Changed ""The Pasugo" is the INC's monthly magazine who's title translates to "The Message" in English." to "The Pasugo" is the INC's monthly magazine. The title translates to "The Message" in English." to conform with standard rules of the English language. "Who's" is a contraction of 'who is', and the author's sentence would then read "...monthly magazine who is title translates...", which makes no sense.

Removed "In the U.S, it is called "God's Message". It used to be distributed free to all, but since the mid-1990's, the INC asks members and to "donate" or pay for each copy they receive while distributing it free to non-members."

The author is apparently unaware that for the past several years the Pasugo has been free to all members and non-members.

Changed "are that:" to "are:". The word "that" is unnecessary.

Changed "Christ was a man sent by God as a mediator" to "Christ was a man sent by God as the only mediator" to more correctly present the INC's doctrine.

Changed "Each organization has monthly meetings (on average) and there, relays messages from the administration and seeks to increase fellowship and unity between members." to "Each organization has monthly meetings (on average) wherein messages are relayed from the administration in order to increase fellowship and unity between members."

Removed: "and great-grandson Sebastian B. Manalo" since Sebastian Manalo is neither the executive minister or one of the deputies thereof.

and

Changed "is currently being administered by the founder's heirs, Felix Manalo's son, Erano G. Manalo, grandson, Eduardo V. Manalo" to "is currently being administered by Erano G. Manalo and Eduardo V. Manalo, who are the son and grandson of Felix Y. Manalo, respectively."

The author seems to have wanted to imply nepotism on the part of the INC administration by using 'heirs' and then redundantly using 'son', 'grandson', and 'great-grandson'. That is not in accordance with the Misplaced Pages's policy of NPOV.

Changed the list of links from: Examine Iglesia Ni Cristo INC Pasugo Online

to

Pro: INC Pasugo Online (Note - the above website is currently inactive, so the following website is listed for further information until the official INC website is once more online: )

Con: Examine Iglesia Ni Cristo

Standard form in English in such instances is to list 'pro' before 'con', and it is appropriate to show which reference takes which view.

Vast Improvment

I don't know if it is still all that biased with all of the current improvements. The stuff about how its buildings resembled LDS, supposed electoral/IRS skullduggery in the U.S., and things like that really needed to go in the absence of great corraborative sources, and I'm glad to see that they have. Also the term "disestablish", which is now well gone since the Catholic Church is the predominant religion in the Philippines, not the established (governmentally-supported) one. Anyone feel free to remove the "bias" template at this point? Rlquall 22:22, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

BIAS Removal, and suggestion

I noticed that most of the biased portions have been removed, making it a down the middle article. But, I feel it's still incomplete. Should this article summarize the twenty eight doctrines of INC? I'm replacing the Bias Boilerplate, with an Attention one.

Why not make the changes I listed? (by gcessor)

I pointed out errors and obvious bias, yet now the article is as it was when I first saw it.

Please tell me why the errors and obvious bias are still there.

Reply

As far as I see on my computer, the edits you made are still in the article. You may still have the old copy in your cache, so reloading (press F5 on your keyboard) may bring up the newer version.

When I found the article, it had 3 different versions of the article posted on the same page. The first top one was the original before your edits, the second and third ones were the edit you put. After noticing this, I erased the first and second copies, and left the third one -the one I assumed was the latest- in the article, before I added the links to other parts of Misplaced Pages, because the other copies had the links and formatting omitted. Misplaced Pages's servers were not working properly the other night, so that my be a factor as well. --Lbmixpro 05:59, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Glenn Cessor is not a Neutral Voice in this Matter

I would like to point out that Glenn Cessor is a member and deacon in the Iglesia Ni Cristo and that the moderators should take that into mind when deciding what edits are valid.

• Since he's a higher member of INC, he has a working knowlege about how INC works. Although he's a member, he (like everybody else) needs to follow the Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. --LBMixPro 01:50, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
• Hello, I was behind most of the "doubtful evidence" posted, and I apologize that I am not able to give more corroborating proof to my story. I have known Glenn from my experiences on message boards regarding the Iglesia Ni Cristo, and even in Glenn's suggested edits, he wants to remove provable facts about the Iglesia Ni Cristo which he or other Church officials might not want others to know. I, myself have served in different offices of the Iglesia Ni Cristo, but left due to a disagreement over its teachings. I will stay on to make sure all positive and negative factual evidence about the INC remains in this article, and I pledge to adhere to the NPOV.--Onlytofind 06:59, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Please also tell me, LBMixPro, if you agree with me or Glenn regarding the policy of donations in regards to the Church magazine.
  • Why does it have to matter? I can disagree with any religious organization's policies, but that doesn't mean I have to be biased by discussing in length what's wrong with them. You can discuss your "disagreement over its teachings" somewhere else, and not in an encyclopedia. -- ealva
    • If you do not understand the context of my question, than do not reply. I was asking whether the moderator agreed with Glenn when he said that the magazines were free, or with me when I said that the Church required a donation. He has been a member of the Church, so he can determine which one of us is speaking the truth. --Onlytofind 19:28, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Onlytofind is not a Neutral Voice in this Matter

I'm sorry I have to state this, but judging from Onlytofind's previous statements, he seems to have an "axe to grind" against the INC and I respectfully suggest that the moderator also take that in mind regarding his edits. Ealva 17:54, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• I would be surprised if anyone takes you seriously after your two nonsensical "contributions" to this thread. I've agreed to stop my bias, but your pro-INC bias is clearly evident. --Onlytofind 19:41, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)