Talk:Nahal Oz attack: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 19:49, 10 November 2023 editA.H.T Videomapping (talk \| contribs)66 edits →Requested move 6 November 2023: ReplyTags: Reverted Reply ← Previous edit		Revision as of 19:51, 10 November 2023 edit undoSelfstudier (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Page movers41,150 edits →Requested move 6 November 2023: Rm Non EC editorTag: Manual revert Next edit →
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	*: Replying to unsigned, only source out of those 5 using the word massacre is Haaretz which uses it as a headline and then only in passing rather than as a name, Hayom is in the headline only ], JP refers to the Simchat Torah massacre, neither Atlantic nor Le Monde use the word at all. Evidently not skyblue. ] (]) 13:55, 9 November 2023 (UTC)		*: Replying to unsigned, only source out of those 5 using the word massacre is Haaretz which uses it as a headline and then only in passing rather than as a name, Hayom is in the headline only ], JP refers to the Simchat Torah massacre, neither Atlantic nor Le Monde use the word at all. Evidently not skyblue. ] (]) 13:55, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
	*:The Haaretz source is also about ], not ] so off-topic. ] (]) 14:34, 9 November 2023 (UTC)		*:The Haaretz source is also about ], not ] so off-topic. ] (]) 14:34, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
	*:by that logic the Baptist Hospital """"""""""attack""""""""" should be classified a genocide ] (]) 19:49, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

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Link to general attack

The article has a link labelled Hamas’ ‘surprise attack on Israel’ but this links to the article for the whole war rather than the article ‘2023 Hamas attack on Israel’. Seems like it should be the latter. 2600:1017:B83B:A473:6073:D305:EEC7:5AA (talk) 19:47, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 6 November 2023

The request to rename this article to Nahal Oz attack has been carried out.

If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag.

Nahal Oz massacre → Nahal Oz attack – The title of this article is out of step with the contents it describes (WP:NCE) and the sources (WP:NPOV). The bulk of what this page describes is an attack on military base, and the bulk of the casualties it describes are military personnel - and I do not see any sources using the word "massacre" to describe the events at the military base. The rest of the material is about a related attack on the nearby kibbutz, but even in the sources for this the word "massacre" is not obviously forthcoming. The only extant source that uses "massacre" in its headline does so, in the body, in reference to the festival massacre. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:11, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

There is a series of similar and similarly named articles. But as you point out, this one is about attacks on both a kibbutz and a nearby military base. Possibly the article should be split?

The body says that most soldiers at the base were unarmed and almost all were killed, so frankly "massacre" does not seem off the mark either way. –St.nerol (talk) 23:24, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

We currently only have Israeli (and Russian?) sources confirming this, as with many of the other details on the page, so I'm not sure how much stock should be put in it. A split is a potential option. The bigger issue is that there is little to no source support for the term 'massacre' in general, which makes it something of an WP:NPOV issue. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:23, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Support Not a massacre according to sources. Selfstudier (talk) 15:28, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose. Ok, this is silly. First, it is ridiculous to suggest that only coverage in Israel is an issue -- that's where the event happened. So if there's only coverage in Palestinian, American, Egyptian sources for an event in that country, is it a problem or the result of how news is gathered? It's also a reflection of systemic bias against Israeli sources -- not Israeli military sources, but sources solely because they are Israeli. Second, RS across the political spectrum use the term "massacre": Haaretz (left), Israel Hayom (right), Jerusalem Post (center), The Atlantic (USA), Le Monde (France), among others. Third, from a WP:SKYBLUE perspective, how is the slaughter of (at least) 12 civilians a military "attack"? Beggars the mind.
Replying to unsigned, only source out of those 5 using the word massacre is Haaretz which uses it as a headline and then only in passing rather than as a name, Hayom is in the headline only WP:HEADLINES, JP refers to the Simchat Torah massacre, neither Atlantic nor Le Monde use the word at all. Evidently not skyblue. Selfstudier (talk) 13:55, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

The Haaretz source is also about Nir Oz, not Nahal Oz so off-topic. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:34, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

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