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== "Armenians lived in Anatolia" is falsification of a secondary source == |
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A clause in sub-section "Armenians in the Ottoman Empire" states: “ Armenians lived in Anatolia”. The clause is supported by just 1 (one!) ref., Suny 2015, p. xviii. But here's what Suny writes on p. xviii, ad verbum: "Some 2 million Christian Armenians lived '''in the Ottoman lands''', most of them peasants and townspeople in the six provinces of eastern Anatolia." The editor's clause figuring in the text of this article is thus a pure falsification of what the author of a secondary source has written.] (]) 01:33, 15 June 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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:I've edited the article to note that the 2m number is in Ottoman territory. The 15–17.5m still applies to Anatolia. ] (] / ]) 01:42, 15 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::I'm sorry to have to say this, but the edit as it now looks: " Armenians lived in Ottoman territory, mostly in Anatolia, a region with a total population of 15–17.5 million" fits for the wastepaper basket. Why? Because (1) Armenians did not live mostly in Anatolia. Anatolia, as Greeks have called the region, was the central, western and westernmost part of the Asia Minor peninsula. Whereas most Armenians lived outside of Anatolia, in the Armenian Highlands, in the eastern and easternmost part of the peninsula, or in the eastern provinces of the Ottoman Empire; (2) ~15–17.5 million was the total population of the empire (including the abovementioned Armenian-populated eastern provinces), therefore to say that Anatolia (that is, only one region in the Ottoman Empire) had a total population of 15–17.5 million is nonsense.] (]) 02:10, 15 June 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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:::I think the language is consistent with the source. ] (] / ]) 02:20, 15 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Ideally we would find a source with a solid estimate of population in Anatolia itself (there were relatively few Armenians who lived elsewhere in the empire )—maybe if I had more time to look in Akcam, Kevorkian, or Dundar I could give you something better. (] · ]) ''']''' 02:28, 15 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::It’s exactly the other way round. There were fewer Armenians who lived in Anatolia proper than in the six eastern provinces of the empire located '''east''' of Anatolia. And you know it, don’t you? Stop pretending that you don’t. Please. ]] (]) 01:20, 22 June 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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::::::I did your job for you (I don’t mind) and looked into another RS that disagrees with Suny’s view (that is, contains a conflicting info) which you said you wished to have more time to look into. Well, here’s Akcam. And this is what he writes on p. xviii in “]”: “According to this reform agreement, the Armenians were to participate on an equal basis in the local administration of what now constitute the eastern provinces of Turkey (an area that is also known as historic or Western Armenia), where the Armenians were living in dense concentrations.” Source: Taner Akcam, The Young Turks’ Crime Against Humanity: The Armenian Genocide and Ethnic Cleansing in the Ottoman Empire (Princeton; Oxford: Princeton University Press, 2012), p. xviii. Now, are you required by Misplaced Pages’s own policies and regulations (]) to include '''all''' significant views in order to maintain a ]? Yes? Then kindly include Akcam’s view that Armenians were living in what now constitute the eastern provinces of Turkey, in an area that is also known as historic or Western Armenia. I'll get Dündar for you in the meantime, another RS which you said you wished to have more time to look into.] (]) 20:33, 23 June 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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:::::I’ll help you give your readers something better than just one source (Suny 2015) supporting your all-time favourite language “Armenians lived mostly in Anatolia”. Here’s an RS, coincidently the one which you said you wished to have more time to look into. Well, here’s Kévorkian. And this is what he writes on p. 265 of his “Complete History”: “Although most Armenians still lived on the Armenian high plateau—then known as the eastern vilayets—communities of greater or lesser density had long since been implanted in western Asia Minor, European Turkey, and Constantinople”. Source: Raymond Kévorkian, “]” (London; New York: I.B. Tauris, 2011), p. 265. Because editors here are required by Misplaced Pages’s own policies and regulations to include '''all''' significant views in order to maintain a ], kindly rephrase the sentence in Background starting with “On the eve of World War I in 1914, around two million Armenians lived in Ottoman territory, mostly in Anatolia,”. As wee see, there are RSs that place the Armenians in the “Armenian high plateau—then known as the eastern vilayets”. Please indicate that other RSs (Kévorkian, for instance) disagree with Suny’s view. I understand from ] that “if the conflict is about an interpretation of the facts”, the editors '''must''' include “all significant points of view with appropriate attributions”. Am I correct? Thanks.] (]) 19:49, 23 June 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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:::::Lastly, I checked Dündar, “Crime of Numbers”, another RS which you said you wished to have more time to look into. Dündar does not specify the Armenian historical habitat except that, on p. xiii, he writes, “It is not an easy task to study and express in words the period of 1878-1918, when Armenians were forced out of their ancestral lands, where they had lived for thousands of years, and subsequently annihilated”. Source: Fuat Dündar, “Crime of Numbers: The Role of Statistics in the Armenian Question (1878-1918)” (New Brunswick; London: Transaction Publishers, 2010), p. xiii. Well, all three RSs, which you said you wished to have more time to look into, have now been looked into. Let’s now see how '''all significant views''', as required by ], are reflected in the opening sentence of the second para. in Background. I can hardly wait.] (]) 23:35, 23 June 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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::::Well, no. The language is not consistent with the source. Try to not indulge yourself… Please. Here’s what Suny has written… again: “Some 2 million Christian Armenians lived in the Ottoman lands, '''most of them''' peasants and townspeople '''in''' the six provinces of '''eastern Anatolia'''.” And here’s how you mispresented Ron’s words: “On the eve of World War I in 1914, around two million Armenians lived in Ottoman territory, '''mostly in Anatolia''', a region with a total population of 15-17.5 million.” Even if we operate with the geographical term “Anatolia” which, historically, has nothing to do with the indigenous habitat of the Armenians, there is a huge difference between the landmass that Greeks called “Anatolia” and the relatively recent toponymic invention “eastern Anatolia” which the Turks had coined in order to replace the geographically and historically correct term “Armenia”, “Armenian Highlands” or “Armenian Plateau”, which lay, again, '''east''' of Anatolia. Most Ottoman Armenians lived '''in the six provinces of eastern Anatolia''' (do you see this clause in Ron’s sentence to which you’re referring?), that is, in the lands '''east''' of what Greeks called “Anatolia”. Whereas you want your readers to be duped into a hogwash that Armenians lived '''mostly''' in Anatolia. To substantiate my statement, I suggest the following language: “Between 1.6 to 2.4 million Christian Armenians lived in the Ottoman Empire, most of them peasants and townspeople in the six eastern provinces of the empire.” Scores of RSs for the range between 1.6 to 2.4 million can be easily found, as they sit, unattended, in the Archives.] (]) 01:11, 22 June 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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:::::I am familiar with your view on "Eastern Anatolia", but I think it's very clear that Suny does not say "east of Anatolia". Hence my continued view that the article language is consistent with the source. ] (] / ]) 02:12, 22 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::It is not '''my'''(?!) view on “eastern Anatolia”. It is the view of many authors in RSs, whom you’ve effectively shelved in the Archives—all indicating that at the time of the genocide there was no such a geographical term as “eastern Anatolia” associated with the historical homeland of the Armenians and that the Armenians’ historical habitat was '''never''' known as Turkey’s toponymic invention “eastern Anatolia”. It is that mentioning more geographically and historically correct terms (e.g., “Armenian Highlands” or “Asia Minor” or “West Asia”) does not fit your preferred—and greatly flawed—narrative. |
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::::::Suny does not say “east of Anatolia”, I never said he did, but he does say that “Armenians lived in the Ottoman lands , most of them '''in the six provinces''' of '''eastern''' Anatolia”. Whereas you say that “Armenians lived in Ottoman territory, '''mostly in Anatolia'''”. Does Suny say “Armenians lived mostly in Anatolia”? No? Then be so kind as to conform to the author’s exact words because, as it looks now, the language is absolutely inconsistent with the source.] (]) 18:34, 23 June 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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::::::In my reply to this editor (] · ]) ''']''' above, I believe I've proven to you, for all readers and other editors here to see, that "eastern Anatolia" is not '''my''' (what?!) view, but is excluded from works of such reputable scholars on the subject of the Armenian Genocide as Kévorkian and Akcam. Have a good day...] (]) 20:43, 23 June 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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:::::::Kevorkian uses the term "eastern Anatolia" repeatedly. For example, on page 2: "the realities that emerged in the Armenian provinces of eastern Anatolia and the Armenian communities of western Anatolia". ] (] / ]) 02:16, 24 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::If you think you’re so damn good at reading Kévorkian, please be aware that he does not use the term “eastern Anatolia” “repeatedly” (what?!). In truth, in his 1025-page volume ], Kévorkian uses the term only eleven times, of which, just so you know, the term figures in conjunction with the Armenians only four times (see pp. 2, 81, 136, and 150). Now, go explain to your readers and fellow editors how four lousy mentions make usage of the term on a repeated basis. Good luck to you. And, by the way, Kévorkian uses the term “Armenian plateau” in conjunction with the Armenians seven times. What do you say to that? |
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::::::::Also, please take this as good advice from a professional in the field, if you decided to look more thoroughly into Kévorkian in an attempt to dig out anything in support of the claptrap “Armenians lived mostly in Anatolia”, please be aware that he never uses that phrase as it figures in the text of your ridiculous article, but always in conjunction with “the Armenian provinces”, and not in Anatolia but in '''eastern '''Anatolia, thus indicating that it is the Armenian-populated eastern provinces that represented a part of the Armenians’ historical habitat. |
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::::::::Lastly, if you decided to specialize in Kévorkian, kindly take heed of endnote 1 on p. 873. Do you see endnote 1 on p. 873 where the author explains how the name “Armenia” has been replaced by “eastern Anatolia”? I think the endnote is worth quoting in full for all your editors, readers, and contributors here to see: |
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::::::::“Ministère des Affaires étrangères, ''Livre jaune, documents diplomatiques, 1875–1877'', Paris 1877, |
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::::::::p. 135, annexe I au 7e protocole de la Conférence de Constantinople, séance du 11 janvier 1877. |
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::::::::Let us note, in connection with the eyalet of ''Ermenistan'', that the name “Armenia” has, in the |
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::::::::re-editions of seventeenth-century and eighteenth-century Turkish authors published in the past |
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::::::::few decades, quite simply become “Eastern Anatolia.” This holds, notably, for the second edition of the work of the seventeenth-century author Kâtip Çelebi (''Hayati ve eserleri hakkinda incelemeler'', Ankara 1957, p. 127) in which the title of Chapter 41, “About the Land of Armenia,” has been replaced by “Eastern Anatolia (cf. the fi rst edition, Constantinople, 1732, p. 227). For more detail, see A. Papazyan, “Քյաթիբ Չելեպիի “Ճիհան–Նուման Որպես Աղբյուր Հայաստանի Պատմական Աշխարհագրութեան ,” ''Badma–Panasiragan Hantes'' 3 (1983), pp. 229–32. For more detail on the administrative subdivisions of the Ottoman Empire, see the excellent article by K. Patalyan, “Վանի Նահանգը ''1840–''ական''–1914'' թթ''.'' ,” ''Panper Erevani Hamalsarani'' 3 (1986), pp. 13–20 which makes systematic use of the Ottoman ''Salname''.” |
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::::::::Let me know if I could be of further help in correcting the absurdities in your article so we can jointly improve it (isn't this your primary function in Misplaced Pages?). Cheers] (]) 17:13, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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== Constantinople == |
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Someone wrote constantinople in the deportation part but it was named Istanbul on those times ] (]) 12:18, 10 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:We have a rough consensus to use Constantinople before 1923. English language sources didn't start using "Istanbul" until well after Turkey was founded. Therefore we use pre-Turkish republic names such as Smyrna, Constantinople, Urfa, Antep etc. (] · ]) ''']''' 14:30, 10 July 2024 (UTC) |
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== Infobox text in “Armenians in the Ottoman Empire” incorrect == |
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== Infobox text in “Armenians in the Ottoman Empire” incorrect == |
There is a miscount in the Infobox to the right of the “Armenians in the Ottoman Empire” subtitle. Another of the editors’ absurdities. Listed are five vilayets but then the text says that they represented “the six most heavily Armenian-populated Ottoman vilayets”. Sivas, the sixth one, is missing, dearest editors. And one falsification of an RS text in ref. 4. Nowhere on p. 279 does Kévorkian (The Armenian Genocide: A Complete History) say that these vilayets were “the six most heavily Armenian-populated Ottoman vilayets”. This is what the author says on p. 279, ad verbum: “According to the figures presented in the previous chapter, of the 2,925 towns and villages of the empire in which Armenians lived, no fewer than 2,084 were located on the Armenian high plateau, properly speaking – that is, in the vilayets of Erzerum, Van, Bitlis, Mamuret ul-Aziz, and Dyarbekir.” By the way, did I mention that Kévorkian uses “the Armenian high plateau” and not “Anatolia” in this particular clause? Cheers73.173.64.115 (talk) 18:32, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian
Nowhere on p. xiv (a page figuring in ref. 6) under the subtitle "Armenians in the Ottoman Empire", does Suny (They Can Live in the Desert but Nowhere Else) say or suggest anything remotely resembling to “The presence of Armenians in Anatolia has been documented since the sixth century BCE, about 1,500 years before the arrival of Turkmens under the Seljuk dynasty”. In fact, on that page Suny discusses Bernard Lewis’ balderdash about the heart of the Turkish homeland being in Anatolia contrary to the historical truth that the Turks’ homeland is in Central Asia.73.173.64.115 (talk) 13:55, 23 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian
In the Background section, under the subtitle “Armenians in the Ottoman Empire”, first sentence of the second para. states that “ Armenians lived in Ottoman territory, mostly in Anatolia, a region with a total population of 15-17.5 million”. This clause is supported by only one lousy reference, ref. 12, although two other equally Reliable Sources, Kévorkian and Akcam, containing different significant views on the same subject, have been brought to editors’ attention but had never been added as they must have been according to WP:CONFLICTING. Ref. 12 refers to Suny, 2015 (They Can Live in the Desert but Nowhere Else), p. xviii. This is what this author, whom the editors, I have no doubt, have chosen because it contains their all-time favorite language “Anatolia” as opposed to Kévorkian and Akcam who do not use that absurd term (in relation to Armenians) and who are, again, as reliable as Suny and thus must be included as source of significant other views, writes on p. xviii: “Some 2 million Christian Armenians lived in the Ottoman lands, most of them peasants and townspeople in the six provinces of eastern Anatolia population estimated to be between 15 and 17.5 million inhabitants.” Compare this original sentence with what the editors of this article have cobbled up: “On the eve of World War I in 1914, around two million Armenians lived in Ottoman territory, mostly in Anatolia, a region with a total population of 15-17.5 million.” But, dearest editors, don’t you see that Suny uses “lands” and not “territory” and that he clearly refers to “eastern Anatolia” and not the load of crap “mostly in Anatolia”? And not just in eastern Anatolia, but in the six provinces of it, which I believe you know well were widely known as Six Armenian Vilayets? What’s the point of distorting, so unceremoniously, the words of an RS author? And in case some editor pops up here telling me from his or her high horse that there is no difference between “land” and “territory”, well, sorry to disappoint, there is an essential difference. Land is central to the identities and ways of life of indigenous peoples, such as the Armenians. Whereas territory is an area of land under the jurisdiction of a ruler or state.73.173.64.115 (talk) 14:55, 23 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian
I understand there are Misplaced Pages editors who have responsibilities or an ability to perform certain administrative actions, called “editors with extra privileges”, if I’m not mistaken? Could anyone visiting this Talk page (other than these two, for the love of God, (t · c) buidhe and Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs)) help with how such editors can be contacted? The highhandedness of the authors and editors of this article, who refuse to implement RS-based edits containing significant viewpoints in violation of Misplaced Pages’s policies and who are involved in falsification of original source texts, needs to stop for the common good of the entire Misplaced Pages community. Thank you in advance.73.173.64.115 (talk) 17:25, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian
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