Talk:2024 Kolkata rape and murder: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 10:57, 23 August 2024 editBenison (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, File movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers44,273 editsm Reverted good faith edits by AradhanaChatterjee (talk): Not exactly the place to show solidarity and support. The discussion is about the change of the title.Tags: Twinkle Undo ← Previous edit		Revision as of 11:48, 23 August 2024 edit undoArachnidly (talk \| contribs)190 editsNo edit summaryTag: 2017 wikitext editor Next edit →
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	*'''Oppose''' — It's essential to include "'''incident'''" in the title. It's not just a crime story, there's a big impact in the aftermath of the crime. ] (])		*'''Oppose''' — It's essential to include "'''incident'''" in the title. It's not just a crime story, there's a big impact in the aftermath of the crime. ] (])
	*'''Support''' --- As I said over on the discussion when someone tried to move the 2012 Delhi case to a page with incident in the title, it adds nothing other than an extra word. "Incident" is unneeded. ] (]) 03:39, 23 August 2024 (UTC)		*'''Support''' --- As I said over on the discussion when someone tried to move the 2012 Delhi case to a page with incident in the title, it adds nothing other than an extra word. "Incident" is unneeded. ] (]) 03:39, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' --- Primarily based on empirical evidence that has been shared by ] above. Although the term incident is more specific and technically correct, its absence would not adversely affect the average Misplaced Pages reader who comes here for some form of clarity and explanation about what happened. In times of confusion, having access to the unbiased, uncensored information written in a neutral tone is what helps the reader. Unfortunately, the evidence shows that outrage directed towards the region is what encourages better practices by the governments and bureaucrats. ] (]) 11:48, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

	== Soumitra Biswas ==		== Soumitra Biswas ==

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This article was nominated for deletion on 13 August 2024. The result of the discussion was speedy keep.

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PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING AN EDIT REQUEST ABOUT REMOVING VICTIM'S NAME
If you have come here to post that the victim's name should not be mentioned per Indian laws, Misplaced Pages is not censored and operate under the jurisdiction of United States, not India.

Images to be added

Please add an image of the college building and/or protesting medical fraternity and/or candlelight vigils being held for the victim. VSankeerthSai1609 (talk) 11:41, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Discussion on Removing Victim's Name

Hi ZimZalaBim, Thank you for your guidance. I agree that this is an important discussion that should take place on the article's talk page.

I understand that creating a pseudonym is not the right approach according to Misplaced Pages's guidelines, and I appreciate your guidance on this. Given the sensitivity of this issue, I agree that the best course of action is to discuss this matter on the article's talk page to reach a consensus. My primary concern remains the ethical implications of including the victim's name, especially in a case involving such a severe crime. As mentioned earlier, while the name may be public, it does not necessarily mean it is appropriate to include it on Misplaced Pages, especially when doing so might cause further distress to the victim's family or inadvertently encourage the spread of such sensitive information.

Arijit Kisku (talk) 18:24, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

I would like to point out that the name has been published in the following media articles: -- Macrobreed2 (talk) 01:49, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

The colleagues of the victim have used the name on various platforms, even the images of the victim are being used for candlelight protests across. The victim being a medical student and the fact that the parents have also used her name and are active litigants in court can justify the usage of her real name. VSankeerthSai1609 (talk) 06:31, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't know about WP's policies but in India, printing or publishing the name or any other information that reveals the identify of a rape victim is forbidden even under the authorization of the next of kin. ParallelLife (talk) 08:36, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

YES !

"The Indian Penal Code 1860 (IPC), Section 228A, forbids printing or publishing the name or any other information that reveals the identify of a rape victim (section 376, 376 A-E of the IPC). Both adults and minors should be aware of this." Nickuwunj (talk) 08:38, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Nickuwunj, WP:NOTCENSORED can shed some light on this. Thanks. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 09:02, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

But the law exists solely to protect the identity of the victim, a purpose that would be defeated in this case.

I would suggest reffering to similar cases for a better insight. Nickuwunj (talk) 09:14, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Nickuwunj, Misplaced Pages doesn't come under the jurisdiction of Indian laws. 2012 Delhi gang rape case is another such example. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 11:20, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Okay understood. Thanks. Nickuwunj (talk) 11:49, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

THE IDENTITY OF THE VICTIM IN THE KOLKATA GANG RAPE CASE HAS BEEN DISCLOSED ...SECTION 228A DOES FORBID USING THE NAME OF A RAPE VICTIM BUT IF THE FAMILY OF THE VICTIM HAS AGREED TO DISCLOSE THE NAME WHICH SO HAS HAPPENED IT IS NOT UNLAWFUL TO USE IT A VERY PERPETUAL EXAMPLE BEING THE NIRBHAYA CASE WHERE THE FAMILY HAS REVEALED THE NAME OF THE VICTIM. 103.101.213.119 (talk) 13:51, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Remove the name. It is immoral and unlawful SayaniReneePaul (talk) 20:39, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not subject to Indian laws. As for "immoral", you may need to explain a bit what you mean by that. AntiDionysius (talk) 20:40, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Do you have no morals? Can't you respect the deceased? SayaniReneePaul (talk) 20:43, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Please try to remain civil and respectful to other editors, even when discussing what is obviously a distressing and emotive topic.

It is not clear to me why hiding the victim's name is the respectful thing to do here; her family have released her name, and I don't think anyone would accuse them of being amoral or disrespectful in that regard. AntiDionysius (talk) 20:45, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Everyone has a right to privacy, and for victims of such heinous crimes, this right is paramount. In some countries, laws specifically protect the identity of rape victims to prevent them from being exposed to the public. For families of murder victims, the public disclosure of their loved one’s identity can cause ongoing pain and grief. They may be repeatedly confronted with news reports, social media discussions, and public curiosity, all of which can hinder their ability to grieve and heal in private. If victims believe that their identities will be disclosed, they may be less likely to report the crime. This is particularly concerning in rape cases, where victims might already be hesitant to come forward due to fear of not being believed or being blamed. Also the family's identity is blurred during interviews and they didn't reveal her name. I have watched interviews, they speak in bangla so Ig you won't be able to understand but if you do I hope you understand the situation. Thank you. God bless SayaniReneePaul (talk) 20:58, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Other people in this thread have said that the family have disclosed the name, though. And it is being repeated in media. Misplaced Pages wouldn't be revealing anything new; the information is already out there. AntiDionysius (talk) 21:05, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

They haven't revealed the name, the media in the state have used pseudo names to protect the identity. Please remove it. 2405:201:8011:35:8901:DAF1:8907:6E69 (talk) 21:25, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Its literally tending on twitter so @AntiDionysius is right. Nickuwunj (talk) 04:29, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

The family did not mention the name anywhere please follow the news 2405:201:8011:35:8901:DAF1:8907:6E69 (talk) 21:26, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

The reference next to the victims name contains her name. Knitsey (talk) 21:28, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

And there are numerous other news outlets publishing the name. As noted numerous times, Misplaced Pages is WP:NOTCENSORED nor subject to Indian law. --ZimZalaBim 21:43, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Please remove victim's name, and give the needed privacy to the family. None of the Indian news channel is mentioning it. If you need to give a name, please pick the one used in the media house. Mrikapa (talk) 05:05, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

I know that the name has been published. But it is a case under investigation, and it is good practice to anonymise the victim until the investigation is completed. Misplaced Pages is not under Indian laws, but the case in discussion is under Indian legislation, so it would be best to at least hide the victim's name for the time being. Rhopalocera2023 (talk) 07:12, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Rhopalocera2023, If Misplaced Pages is not under Indian jurisdiction, then why to censor the name. Please read WP:NOTCENSORED. The name is in accordance to Misplaced Pages policies and if you want to hide it, you have to provide a Misplaced Pages policy stating so. Not other points. Furthermore, the name has been disclosed by the family itself and just like 2012 Delhi gang rape and murder, this article also follows the same principle. Remember that Misplaced Pages is a not a news channel or newspaper. This is an encyclopedia which provides information. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 08:16, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. The name should be published 103.101.213.119 (talk) 11:24, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. The name should be published 103.101.213.119 (talk) 11:25, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Also agreed. There is no benefit in hiding the name. 98.194.78.91 (talk) 17:39, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

if you to follow the rules of the land. please remove it. Mrikapa (talk) 05:07, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Multiple duplicate edit requests for victim's name. See WP:NOTCENSORED

Remove the victims name! You are against the law in revealing her identity!

revealing name of victim of rape is a crime in India. Section 72 of BNS. 74.98.224.45 (talk) 18:06, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages operates under the laws of the United States, not India. Cullen328 (talk) 18:17, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 August 2024

This edit request to 2024 Kolkata rape and murder incident has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please remove victim' name from the post as there is court's order not to reveal victim's identity. Instead use "Tilottoma" as is being used in media same like "Nirvoya" 2409:4060:31A:74C5:B38B:4229:C830:7840 (talk) 16:58, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Not done - Misplaced Pages is not subject to Indian law. Please see WP:NOTCENSORED. --ZimZalaBim 17:47, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 August 2024 (2)

This edit request to 2024 Kolkata rape and murder incident has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

You cannot give victims photo as it goes against the law Binitjeje (talk) 21:45, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Myrealnamm (💬pros · ✏️cons) 21:47, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Also see above edit request's answer. Myrealnamm (💬pros · ✏️cons) 21:48, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

The mention of her name

I humbly request to remove her identity (i.e her photo and name) completely, Thanks. 103.157.211.16 (talk) 10:35, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

103.157.211.16, Refer to the red editnotice box on top of this page. Misplaced Pages is not censored nor is it under Indian jurisdiction. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 10:46, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand the aversion some people have to the publishing of her name, firstly the family has stated they want her name to be known, and they would now if that wasn't what she would want. Secondly, she did nothing wrong, while I understand privacy, by not publishing her name you are acting like her memory was stained or in other cases, there is something to be ashamed of. PaienPaien (talk) 00:00, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

do not mention the girls name as per gag order

This edit request to 2024 Kolkata rape and murder incident has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

116.88.232.227 (talk) 23:05, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Not done. Please see the banner at the top and the discussions in the previous sections. Soni (talk) 01:34, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Please remove Victim's name and other personal details from this Wiki entry. Thanks. Mrikapa (talk) 05:02, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

@Mrikapa, not gonna happen. I'm local resident where the incident happen. I also understand the cause as Indian citizen. But the portal and the organization is under US jurisdiction, not India's. So no further discussion on this matter. ☮️Counter-Strike:Mention 269🕉️ 06:16, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi. You claim to be a local resident of the incident location. You also have a registered WMF (not Misplaced Pages) account. You show know the latest Indian Laws for such news distribution through "social media". Under the new Indian Laws, not only is Wikimedia "social media" and a "news aggregator", but they have also failed to comply in appointing a Grievance Officer for India, leaving each and every one of their Indian users who have edited the article in mainspace liable for punishment under Indian laws. Indian high courts are now directing WMF to hand over their user details. The hammer will fall when WMF's extremely lax user registration practices, to facilitate anonymous defamation, get exposed very soon. 49.36.176.122 (talk) 17:53, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Indian WikiMedians are legally liable for publishing name of Rape victim.

Indian employees / contractors of WMF are legally responsible for publishing name of Rape/Murder victim based solely on an OPIINION blogpost in The Business Standard. To cite an example or 2, Runa Bhattacharya (WMF) is from Kolkata as is Tito Dutta (CIS-A2K). Thus, kindly delete the name of the victim immediately and stop painting this as a US free speech issue, because it will have real life consequences in India. Submitted by HinduRakshaDal. 49.36.176.122 (talk) 16:47, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Please see the banner at the top of this page. Misplaced Pages is not censored, and it operates under the jurisdiction of the united states, not india, per the header of this talk page. — BerryForPerpetuity (talk) 16:52, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Indian Law has just as much extra-territorial reach as US laws do. Maybe you didn't get the memo, but just 2 days ago WMF threw 3 of their EN:WP admins under the bus and is going to hand over their details for prosecution under Indian laws.Delhi High Court WIKIMEDIA INC 20 August 2024 -- 49.36.176.122 (talk) 17:22, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't know what you think that filing indicates, but it has no affect on the fact WP:UNCENSORED applies here. --ZimZalaBim 17:37, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

It is not a filing. It is a DIRECTION / ORDER to WMF by India's 2nd most powerful court. WMF counsel has agreed to comply and turn the user details over for service of court summons/notice. 49.36.176.122 (talk) 17:55, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

BTW, WP:UNCENSORED is not a "fact". It is a local policy of a single WMF"community" and is subject to WMF Terms of Use, which acknowledges application of local laws on the users/editors. The WMF terms of Use are unambiguous that every editor is responsible for their edits under local laws. Having said that, Indian laws additionally and specifically allow for WMF employees and contractors to be arrested for acts of WMF outside India in breach of Indian law. 49.36.176.122 (talk) 18:02, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

This diff is highly problematic for the Indian user @VSankeerthSai1609: concerned. 49.36.176.122 (talk) 18:14, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

@49.36.176.122 I am against the picture of the victim being put but that is not in my hands. As far as the name is concerned, yes the Supreme Court ordered various social media platforms to not publicly release the name however news outlets like India Today had published the name. The friends and co-medicos of the victim have openly used the name. My version of the page as far as the name is concerned has been edited multiple tines including adding of the Dr. prefix by senior editors who are more familiar with the wiki code of conduct. I am entirely relying on the experience and guidance of senior editors here. But, having watched the interviews of the victim's parents and family, they have not voiced any concern about this particular issue. About 7000 people in Kolkata were marching paying respects to her on the night of 17 August with few of them having her picture and directly using her name. If the family had been against this, they would have voiced some concern. VSankeerthSai1609 (talk) 18:27, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

All responsible news media outlets in India have promptly deleted the names from their news articles / reports. All your justifications have no place in Indian law and under WMF Terms of use. As a fellow Indian, I request you to kindly read WMF terms of Use carefully and not get misguided by editors cherry picking from WP:UNCENSORED. You are responsible for your own actions: You are legally responsible for your edits and contributions on the Projects, your reuse of content on the Projects, your use of the APIs, and your use of our services more generally. For your own protection you should exercise caution and avoid taking any actions that may result in criminal or civil liability under any applicable laws. For clarity, applicable law includes at least the laws of the United States of America and the State of California. For other countries, this is determined on a case-by-case basis. Although we may not agree with such actions, we warn users—particularly the editors, contributors, and authors—that non-U.S. authorities may seek to apply other country laws to you, including local laws where you live or where you view or edit content. We generally cannot offer any protection, guarantee, immunity or indemnification against the application of such laws. WMF is not going to help you in any potential legal proceedings since you had been properly warned. 49.36.176.122 (talk) 18:43, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

@49.36.176.122 My edits with regard to the name of the victim have been repeatedly edited after me, including removal of the Dr. prefix and others. I have edited the article but have not again touched the name of the victim as the controversy is going on. Your advice and caution is duly noted. Will remain vigilant with regards to the legalities of the statements in the articles I edit. VSankeerthSai1609 (talk) 18:47, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

And adding to the legal prospects, all my edits wrt the name have been made before the honourable courts' orders similar to the media houses. However, unlike the media houses, deletion of the name isn't solely in my hands. VSankeerthSai1609 (talk) 18:50, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

For those interested in a bit more detail on the case the IP mentioned, see . Very, very early in the case. Ravensfire (talk) 18:47, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

FYI, I observed the proceedings in the court. Seeing the posturing of WMF's senior advocate Mr. Nayyar, WMF is certain to throw its editors (admins) under the bus because of India's draconian new Information Technology Rules, which WMF has not complied with. WMF is only concerned with preserving their safe harbour immunity by blaming their users. Indian editors should be concerned, especially if they used their identifiable real life names. 49.36.176.122 (talk) 19:13, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

@49.36.176.122 Am I missing something... any specific case details? VSankeerthSai1609 (talk) 19:27, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Why does WMF have to abide by the laws and orders of India, other than fears of geo-restrictions? Doesn't seem like the foundation has recognized affiliations with India anymore. Rather than censoring the girl's name, wouldn't a simpler solution would be to advise Indian editors to avoid editing this page? — BerryForPerpetuity (talk) 19:34, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Not everything happens through the courts in India. You are correct about geo-blocks. This link may be useful in that context.

Govt acts on Hindu Samaj complaint IAS Home Secretary Ajay Kumar Bhalla is CIA asset 49.36.176.122 (talk) 19:51, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh man that's some funny stuff there! Ravensfire (talk) 19:57, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

What does this link show? We're talking about article contents and censoring a name from an American website under an Indian gag order, not bribery of government officials. Also, did WMF even comply with that order? You state that WMF is going to hand over the details of 3 EN:WP admins to Indian officials for prosecution, where did you get this information from? Seems like only 1 administrative action has been taken on this page. — BerryForPerpetuity (talk) 20:07, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

@BerryForPerpetuity I am not at all sure that any person out of India would even bother to follow the latest details of the case and update the article. Indian editors can edit the article but should avoid controversial sections. VSankeerthSai1609 (talk) 19:39, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

I for one will continue to update the article, but will not touch the sections with the name of the victim because of the controversy. VSankeerthSai1609 (talk) 19:40, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

A safer course of action for you, given in good faith, is for you to remove the name of victim which you inserted, and then let any other editor reinsert it. That way your ass (sorry "arse" / "butt") is fully covered <wink>. 49.36.176.122 (talk) 19:45, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

@49.36.176.122 I dont know... Younahve supported your point with lot of out of context and unrelated matters. Anyways, the last edit wrt the name isn't from me. And as I have said, I made the edit before the Court's statement. VSankeerthSai1609 (talk) 04:19, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

@49.36.176.122 And if you could place the link of the italics content here on in my talk page, please do. I want to the read completely and avoid any out of context conclusions. VSankeerthSai1609 (talk) 18:52, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Terms of User are at wmf:Policy:Terms of Use/en (or clicking the "Terms of Use" link at the very bottom of most pages). --ZimZalaBim 19:02, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

@ZimZalaBim Thank you VSankeerthSai1609 (talk) 19:04, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Discussion to protect the article from fake news and bad writing

I've been watching this article since yesterday reverting several edits with misinformation or fake news while also correcting the numerous Grammatical Errors made by inexperienced editors. I suggest protecting this article atleast till it is under heavy media coverage. Nickuwunj (talk) 18:57, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

You shall raise a request at WP:RFP. -- Macrobreed2 (talk) 02:09, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Moving the article name to "2024 Kolkata gang rape and murder"

As per the reports (dated 15/08/2024) the case seems to be a gang rape and murder case. 1. I recommend moving the article name from "2024 R. G. Kar Medical College and Hospital rape and murder" to "2024 Kolkata gang rape and murder" for clear understanding.

"Reportedly"

I've been removing a ton of POV-ridden content that largely is from sources where something was "reportedly" the case. This isn't what an enecylopedia is for. Take your specultative opinions elsewhere, please. --ZimZalaBim 02:35, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Removal Of content

Why was the timeline of the incident under the arrest section removed ? Nickuwunj (talk) 06:07, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I suppose the editor gave this reason, "Misplaced Pages is not a true crime show". As much as I agree with the statement, however, few substantiated fats about the accused and few crucial incidents could have been kept in my opinion. VSankeerthSai1609 (talk) 06:36, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

What do you say about this, ZimZalaBim? Can't we keep few substantiated facts about the arrested accused? VSankeerthSai1609 (talk) 06:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I do not own this article. If there is consensus to include verifiable facts that improve the article, then edit it. --ZimZalaBim 12:13, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

@ZimZalaBim 👍 VSankeerthSai1609 (talk) 17:04, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Need a background section

This article needs Background section like other articles. Mehedi Abedin 11:31, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Mehedi Abedin, You may add one yourself or if possible, find out references from reliable sources for the same. Thanks. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 13:47, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Proposed merge of 2024 Meyeder Raat Dokhol Movement into 2024 Kolkata rape and murder incident

MERGE WP:INVOLVED close but WP:SNOW applies. Nearly everyone clearly agrees to merging. (non-admin closure) Soni (talk) 22:38, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Where is the proof this is an established "movement" that deserves its own encyclopedia article? This should just be merged and redirected to 2024 Kolkata rape and murder incident where the aftermath is sufficiently covered. ZimZalaBim 12:10, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

the meyeder raat dokhol movement or women reclaim the night should be elaborated as it is a major revolution being brought about. the slogan of the movement being "WE WANT JUSTICE" 103.101.213.119 (talk) 13:44, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Merge. If the protest section gets long enough later then we can only make it an article. Mehedi Abedin 13:53, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

yes 103.101.213.119 (talk) 13:57, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

THEY NEED NOT BE MERGED 103.101.213.119 (talk) 13:56, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

BECAUSE THE PROTEST THAT STARTED ON 11.30 PM ,14TH OF AUGUST HAS INFACT IN ONE NIGHT MADE A KIND OF HISTORY INDIA HAS NOT SEEN BEFORE WHERE WOMEN FIGHT FOR WHAT IS THEIR RIGHT , WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN DENIED SINCE AS LONG AS ONE CAN REMEMBER AND ASK FOR JUSTICE FOR THE VICTIM . IS IT TOO MUCH TO ASK? AND IT CERTAINLY IS LONG ENOUGH TO BE AN ARTICLE 103.101.213.119 (talk) 14:02, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Please don't WP:SHOUT; this is not a WP:SOAPBOX. --ZimZalaBim 14:30, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

--ZimZalaBimHOW DO YOU ASSUME I AM SHOUTING...BUT IF YOU THINK SO I APOLOGISE ...MY WRITINGS ARE IN CAPTALS AS MY KEYBOARD IS MALFUNCTIONING... 103.101.213.119 (talk) 15:10, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

The protests are the aftermath of the incident. They may not need another article. The information can be looked up in the article page itself. Protests occurred after the 2012 gang rape too. But as it is related to the incident, we can include that in the main article. VSankeerthSai1609 (talk) 17:40, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Merge per nom. No standalone notability per WP:GNG or WP:SIGCOV. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 14:16, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Merge As of now Meyeder Raat Dokhol Movement is not mentioned by any national media which questions it's notability. However, I'm in support of merging it with 2024 Kolkata rape and murder incident. ParallelLife (talk) 16:06, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Not Merge This movement protest is in wide range discussion across the media in India. The several developments to happen only in this article. So I don't think this should be merged. So I am against merging it.
VNC200 (talk) 19:31, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

* Not merge – This is an established movement, by a lady named Rimjhim Sinha. Please search it. I don't think this article deserves to be merged with it. More development is yet to come, along with the reactions. I am against merging of it.

~~VNC200 (talk) 19:43, 15 August 2024 (UTC)~~

Merge- Merge for now. Not notable enough to warrant a separate article. It hasn't been covered extensively. As someone previously mentioned, a separate article is only justified if the protest section becomes substantial enough

DangalOh (talk) 20:48, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

@VSankeerthSai1609 protests held during the 2012 Delhi gang rape have a separate article elaborating the protests in it's Misplaced Pages page. And the protest having a name makes it all the more necessary to have a separate article to it. We must keep expanding the articles as the protests progress. I stand against merging it. 103.101.213.119 (talk) 11:32, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

@103.101.213.119 If the article has a scope of expanding, then do not merge it. And could you please link the 2012 Delhi protests wiki page, I am not able to find it. VSankeerthSai1609 (talk) 15:45, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

@VSankeerthSai1609 sure

2012 rape case hyperlink – Search (bing.com) 103.101.213.119 (talk) 05:17, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

2012 Delhi gang rape and murder#Public protests 103.101.213.119 (talk) 05:19, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@103.101.213.119 Yeah, that's not a separate article. It's a section of the main article. VSankeerthSai1609 (talk) 16:00, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Marge. The two incidents are related enough that two seperate articles should not exist on them individually. Kalpesh Manna 2002 (talk) 14:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Merge. Please merge both the articles. Protests were held after the 2012 Delhi gang rape too, but they were related to the incident. This is the same case. Just because the protests occurred with a name doesn't necessarily mean it is a movement. If further protests and demonstrations in this name occurs, we may consider expanding the article. But for now, please merge it. User: VSankeerthSai1609
Merge. There's a lot of overlap and as it has already been mentioned in its current state the article does not meet the standards for a standalone page. Keivan.f 14:25, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Merge per above all. Waonderer (talk) 10:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Completing the merge

I finished merging the articles. There did not seem to be anything pertinent that 2024 Meyeder Raat Dokhol Movement covered that's not already here. If anyone finds images or text from that article that needs to be merged here, please feel free to. Soni (talk) 22:49, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Criticism of the Trinamool Congress Government

The section is largely unsourced and unattributed, citing only TOI and a YouTube video as sources. The section frequently mentions the ‘ministry,’ but this claim is entirely unsourced, as the cited references do not mention it. Additionally, it states, ‘It has also been alleged that the ministry deliberately tried to fabricate the case as a suicide.’ However, the cited source, TOI (an unreliable source), discusses Rahul Gandhi’s comments and does not mention ‘suicide’ at all. Furthermore, it claims, ‘Additionally, Udayan Guha, Trinamool politician and cabinet minister for North Bengal Development, has been accused of using his political power to suppress the voices of the parents and the protestors by discouraging their participation in the protests,’ but the cited source is a YouTube video. I noticed that this section was added by Shawn110. Please cite reliable sources here, or I will have to remove the section. GrabUp – Talk 13:35, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Hello GrabUp, thanks for reverting. I've found a source by News 18 but it is blacklisted. Please inform if it can be used for citation if not then last paragraph can be removed.

However the first paragraph has been cited from another source and I've made appropriate change to the text as it was modified by others. Shawn110 (talk) 14:42, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

@Shawn110: News18 is not a blacklisted source. Please mention the source you are referring to. GrabUp – Talk 15:15, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

The source is News 18 only but thik the issue is with the url containing google.amp extension as per the error due to which is the issue is occurring. Shawn110 (talk) 16:00, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

@Shawn110: Can you copy and past the actual headline. GrabUp – Talk 17:20, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Sure this is the headline: 'Don't Call Me If Your Husband Beats You': TMC Minister's Remarks On Women's Rally For Kolkata Doctor Sparks Outrage, BJP Reacts Shawn110 (talk) 17:32, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

@Shawn110: Here is the article from News18; Please explain me where the sources says what you added; “Additionally, Udayan Guha, Trinamool politician and cabinet minister for North Bengal Development, has been accused of using his political power to suppress the voices of the parents and the protestors by discouraging their participation in the protests,” GrabUp – Talk 17:55, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

The source does not accuse anyone, nor does it mention that anyone accused him. The source merely covered his comments and nothing more. The source says ‘BJP reacts,’ but it does not include what the BJP’s reaction was or how they reacted. GrabUp – Talk 17:59, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I've removed that part earlier. Please don't bother. Shawn110 (talk) 18:01, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

@Shawn110: Anything with 'google.amp' or other should not be used as URL for source, as they are just a kind of preview of original website. Use the original URL. There should be some square and arrow which takes you to real website, which could be named after News18 in this case. ExclusiveEditor _{Notify Me!} 13:53, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

@ExclusiveEditor thank you for informing. Shawn110 (talk) 08:24, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Victim's "name" included in article with invalid source

Has anyone actually looked at the complete nonsense link that supposedly gives the name of the victim? You consider that source reputable? — Preceding unsigned comment added by HotRodHundley (talk • contribs) 21:45, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

The name is under the photo of the hospital. Knitsey (talk) 21:48, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, my point isn't that the victim's supposed name isn't literally on the page. HotRodHundley (talk) 00:12, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

You mean the name is correct but the source isn't good? Knitsey (talk) 09:01, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

HotRodHundley, the name of the victim is clearly mentioned in the page and India Today is a reliable source per WP:RS and WP:RS/P. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 10:44, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

The source is not India Today, it's "hindipatrika.com", which is certainly not a reliable source, as even the slightest cursory review will make clear. HotRodHundley (talk) 15:33, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

It also appears to be literally the only source of this name. Completely invented. HotRodHundley (talk) 15:34, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

If this negligence is going to be left up then remove the protection. What's the point of it? HotRodHundley (talk) 01:11, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

HotRodHundley, I'm not sure which link you are referring to. I'm talking about the India Today reference given in the infobox of the page, in the lede. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 08:45, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Also called 'Nirbhaya 2'

Suggestion to add the phrase that this is also referred by some as 'Nirbhaya 2', as the similarities in national level rallies and condolences. Danish AMC (talk) 10:27, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Danish AMC, Please provide multiple reliable sources supporting your claim for verifiability. Thanks. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 10:41, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 16 August 2024

The request to rename this article to 2024 Kolkata rape and murder has been carried out.

If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag.

2024 Kolkata rape and murder incident → 2024 Kolkata rape and murder – Incident was pointlessly added to the title in an undiscussed move. 2A00:23EE:1928:8C3:951B:C401:3A56:519A (talk) 15:17, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose – I don't like this proposal. "2024 Kolkata rape and murder" sounds like it should be a list or discussion of all the rape and murder that has happened in Kolkata this year. I vote to leave "incident" in the title. Succubus MacAstaroth (talk) 22:46, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

@Succubus MacAstaroth The list of all murders in Kolkata will be probably Crime in Kolkata or Crime in Kolkata in 2024. Soni (talk) 11:44, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose – As per @Succubus MacAstaroth Thewikizoomer (talk) 03:24, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose Per the user above. It's too generalized and vague. Rape and murder 'what'? Incident? Case? Keivan.f 05:37, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Looking at Template:Rape in India, I think 2024 Kolkata rape and murder case would be a more appropriate title. Keivan.f 19:53, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
  In most of the ones ending with 'case' in ] the case is prominently covered and a large part of the focus of the article itself (see: 2009 Shopian rape and murder case or 2014 Birbhum gang rape case. There are many, many ones where there is no 'case' or 'incident' in the title. Most of the ones that reached national/international notoriety and the level of outrage we're seeing now (i.e., 2012 Delhi or 2020 Hathras, don't mention 'case' or 'incident' in the title. Schwinnspeed (talk) 21:59, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Support. This article was moved from the title 2024 R. G. Kar Medical College and Hospital rape and murder to the title 2024 Kolkata rape and murder on the grounds the latter was more WP:CONCISE, WP:PRECISE, and more WP:CONSISTENT with the naming of similar articles, after a discussion. Subsequently, Thewikizoomer moved the article to the current title without any discussion or explanation. The word "incident" adds no value and could be perceived as minimising this crime, as it suggests it was not a crime, but something else. If the issue is that the title is too general ad vague, then perhaps the word "hospital" or "doctor's" could be added to the title, instead. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 10:19, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Support per precedent in Template:Rape in India or other similar pages. The word "incident" adds nothing to the description or searchability, and WP:CONCISE suggests we should drop it. I'd have moved it back already, given the undiscussed move first (per WP:BRD) but it might be worse for current discussion.

Also, there may be WP:ENGVAR issues in play since "Rape and murder" is a perfectly acceptable noun, but I think it's percieved by some commenters as an adjective. If this fails, I prefer moving to 2024 Kolkata rape and murder case instead, it's the other keyword similar articles share. Soni (talk) 11:44, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Note: Noticeboard for India-related topics has been notified of this discussion. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 13:14, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, WikiProject Death, WikiProject Human rights, WikiProject Sexology and sexuality, WikiProject India/Women and gender issues, WikiProject Law Enforcement, and WikiProject Law have been notified of this discussion. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 13:15, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@2A00:23EE:1928:8C3:951B:C401:3A56:519A

Weak Support Wouldn't it be better to name the article Rape and Murder of Moumita Debnath? When searching for the article, would this not be the most recognisable name? EmilySarah99 (talk) 14:13, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Comment: While Moumita Debnath redirects to this article, naming this article should use a recognizable name. At the moment this appears to be the Indian city where the crime occurred, not the victim of the crime. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 21:28, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Support I think "2024 Kolkata RG College Rape and Murder" would be even better. But I vote to strike "incident" out. I don't think most media outlets are using the victim's name at the moment too prominently to avoid revictimizing her family at the moment. Cononsense (talk) 15:03, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Support Per @Cameron Dewe. Waonderer (talk) 16:20, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Support per all above. The undiscussed move was totally unnecessary. The addition of 'incident' is superfluous and is not in accordance with the main template. As Soni suggested, other crimes can be covered under a different title. Till another similar incident (God forbid) occurs in Kolkata which garners enough SIGCOV and warrants another article title, we can change the title then.The Herald (Benison) (talk) 16:47, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Support I was originally thinking oppose, as it does sound strange not to include 'incident', and for people unfamiliar per WP:AUDIENCE, it can give the impression its about ALL the cases in Kolkata in 2024. But looking more closely at Template: Rape in India (per @Soni above, the 2012 Delhi gang rape and murder, the 2019 Hyderabad gang rape and murder, the 2020 Hathras gang rape and murder all follow this format and we should be consistent. There are many others as well but it makes me a little sick to type them all out but the point is there is precedent and we should follow it for consistency. Schwinnspeed (talk) 21:46, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Comment the fact that this happens enough to warrant a template for this on WP is also a pretty hard hitting reality. Schwinnspeed (talk) 22:01, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

The other precedent on this other than template above is listed at Category:Violence against women in India template (Neither template is exhaustive but both are large, depressingly so). The term "murder case" or "rape case" appears semi consistently in the articles, but not enough to establish a clear precedent. So I am also okay with us trying to establish a consensus for "case" and switching everything to it. Soni (talk) 09:08, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
Support: per WP:CONCISE as "incident" is unnecessary. However, per WP:OTHEROPTIONS and WP:DEATHS (and WP:NOTCURRENTTITLE) I would also offer up Killing of Moumita Debnath as an alternative. Bait30 23:32, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Technically speaking @Bait30, I don't think it would be a good idea. The individual is notable to the case of rape and murder only and doesn't have separate article about herself due to one-event case (r&m). ☮️Counter-Strike:Mention 269🕉️ 06:24, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
That has no bearing on the naming conventions. There are numerous examples of that naming scheme with non-notable victims. For example, Killing of JonBenét Ramsey, Killing of Manadel al-Jamadi, Killing of Mark Duggan, and Killing of Antwon Rose Jr., among others. Bait30 23:44, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
Weak Support per nom and above arguments. I'd like to also point out that her name is more trending than "Kolkata rape" or "Kolkata murder" respectively, according to the Google Trends. Therefore, adding her name to the article would make more sense. Personally, I haven't seen anyone using her pseudo name i.e. Abhaya, on my social media feed. Unlike 2012 Delhi gang rape and murder, everyone is using her real name and picture for the protests. ParallelLife (talk) 05:30, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
Support: Name should be changed as per Misplaced Pages convention and norms. Kalpesh Manna 2002 (talk) 08:42, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
Support: As per Bait30, including the alternative article title of Killing of Moumita Debnath. Melbguy05 (talk) 12:50, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
Support – the removal of "incident". Oppose "Killing/Murder of " since the victim's name is mentioned in just one of the headlines of the sources used, and she is not even the main subject there. BinaryBrainBug (talk) 16:51, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
Support: Adding 'incident' seems redundant. Waqar💬 17:14, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
Support per precedent and titling guidelines. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:55, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
Support. Neither "rape" nor "murder" needs "incident" appended to it. They stand alone. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:58, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
Support as per @Necrothesp's reasoning

thanks

Daisytheduck 04:48, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Comment. I also support Killing of Moumita Debnath. -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:30, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
Support I don't think "Incident" is a great word to use to refer to such a horrific crime. Some sources are using the word "Case" instead Rainsage (talk) 06:55, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Support as of the reason showed by Soni.

Mehedi Abedin 13:40, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Support - There was no other notable rape or murder incident in Kolkata that is notable in 2024, it only makes sense to rename it. User:Wheatley2 (speak to me) (watch me) 21:45, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose as per above. rariteh (talk) 22:39, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

To clarify, I believe Killing of Moumita Debnath to be a better alternative to either title, being both concise and specific. rariteh (talk) 22:43, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose purely on grammatical grounds; "2024 Kolkata rape and murder" is ambiguous, "rape and murder" functions as an adjective of 2024 Kolkata, it can imply that the article is about rape and murder in Kolkata throughout 2024. (Has there only been one murder in Kolkata in 2024? One rape?). "2024 Kolkata rape and murder incident" is unambiguous, referring to a specific event for which the article focusses. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 23:08, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Move to Killing of Moumita Debnath instead as more concise and precise. --wooden superman 10:15, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
Oppose — It's essential to include "incident" in the title. It's not just a crime story, there's a big impact in the aftermath of the crime. STSC (talk)
Support --- As I said over on the discussion when someone tried to move the 2012 Delhi case to a page with incident in the title, it adds nothing other than an extra word. "Incident" is unneeded. Paris1127 (talk) 03:39, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
Support --- Primarily based on empirical evidence that has been shared by Schwinnspeed above. Although the term incident is more specific and technically correct, its absence would not adversely affect the average Misplaced Pages reader who comes here for some form of clarity and explanation about what happened. In times of confusion, having access to the unbiased, uncensored information written in a neutral tone is what helps the reader. Unfortunately, the evidence shows that outrage directed towards the region is what encourages better practices by the governments and bureaucrats. AradhanaChatterjee (talk) 11:48, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Soumitra Biswas

We should mention the 2001 Soumitra Biswas incident somewhere in this article (I would add a link to OpIndia but I can’t get it to successfully post for some reason) Overlordnat1 (talk) 10:48, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Overlordnat1, Relevance? (See WP:RELEVANCE and WP:DUE) It can be mentioned in section called history, but I really doubt there is any notability for that. This article is about the 2024 incident, not other issues related to the college. That can be put in the medical college article with relevant reliable sources. Thanks. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 11:47, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@Overlordnat1: OpIndia is considered unreliable source and thus it is deprecated (blocked) from being used on Misplaced Pages. ExclusiveEditor _{Notify Me!} 12:30, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 August 2024

This edit request to 2024 Kolkata rape and murder incident has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Under the "Arrest" subsection, change the following grammatically incorrect sentence:

"He is a trained boxer and close to few higher officials at the Kolkata Police"

"He is a trained boxer with connections to a few high-ranking officials in the Kolkata Police." 2405:201:D002:319D:E1AB:F865:25D4:535A (talk) 18:15, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Done The Herald (Benison) (talk) 18:22, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

“150gm semen” is misinformation

Semen is measured in ml, average male can ejaculate 5 ml of semen. 150gm of semen means it involves 100 people. So this is a clear misinformation. There was no info of 150gm semen in postmortem report 2406:7400:C4:7D17:0:0:0:100 (talk) 19:42, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Provide a source that disputes the info presented in sources that are already cited within the article. Keivan.f 19:49, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

It's just a misreading: the article says mg (milligram), not gm (gram). --JBL (talk) 20:24, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@Keivan.f, look at this source: https://www.deccanherald.com/india/west-bengal/kolkata-doctors-rape-murder-autopsy-report-reveals-horrific-details-of-injuries-on-victims-body-most-on-face-and-neck-3157440 151 g is the weight of the genitalia sample taken from the body. Tosha Langue (talk) 10:28, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Multiple sources have reported, via release of information from the parents, that the the autopsy report says 150 milligrams of semen was found in the vaginal swab. Using 1.0173 g/mL as density, that is 0.1475 millilitres, or around one-twentyth of one average ejaculation of 3.4 mL

This is how much was found in a swab, during the autopsy. The sources don't state how much is typically found in a swab, but a doctor is quoted in one source "That quantity cannot be of one person. It suggests the involvement of multiple people" 147.147.154.28 (talk) 13:40, 18 August 2024 (UTC) 147.147.154.28 (talk) 13:40, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Discussion for Revision of Short Description

I believe a more specific description would help provide better context for readers. Arijit Kisku (talk) 15:22, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Short descriptions are not seen by readers of the article, and are not intended to "provide context" (what does that even mean?) -- see WP:SHORTDESC. 128.164.177.55 (talk) 18:14, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I have knowledge about writing short descriptions, which help users identify the desired article and provide a concise explanation of the page's scope. I think the word 'murder' should be added to the short description. Arijit Kisku (talk) 22:59, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

SC Hearing

Can we add the members of the 9 membered task force set up by the Supreme Court of India in a table? VSankeerthSai1609 (talk) 06:53, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

VSankeerthSai1609, it will be undue weight to an article on the incident. Reactions and aftermath can mention the task force, but there is no point in mentioning the task force members, unless they are highly notable individuals. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 06:27, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh okay! VSankeerthSai1609 (talk) 06:31, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Adding Dr. before name

Why is it just Debnath, and not Dr. Debnath ? Is this some wiki policy? -- Parnaval (talk) 10:11, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Parnaval, WP:MRS is associated with it. You can see WP:DOCTOR also. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 10:20, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Rally by State CM

Chief Minister Mamata Banerjee held rally. I suggest including this, as she herself is CM and still held a rally, so this should be notable. -- Parnaval (talk) 10:37, 21 August 2024 (UTC) Parnaval (talk) 10:37, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Grammar error

In Incident the text says "discovered in one of college's seminar rooms" but the text should say "discovered in one of the college's seminar rooms" Fivework (talk) 16:25, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Done The Herald (Benison) (talk) 19:30, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Categories: