Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:04, 20 April 2007

Welcome

Hello, Alex Kov, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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If you are interested in Ukraine-related themes, you may want to check out the Ukraine Portal, particularly the Portal:Ukraine/New article announcements and Portal:Ukraine/Ukraine-related Misplaced Pages notice board. The New article announcements board is probably the most important and the most attended one. Please don't forget to anounce there the new articles you create. Adding both boards to your watchlist is probably a good idea.

Finally, in case you are interested, similar boards exist at Russia portal as many editors contribute to topics related to both countries. The respective boards there are: Portal:Russia/New article announcements and Portal:Russia/Russia-related Misplaced Pages notice board. Of course there are also many other portals at Misplaced Pages or you may just get right into editing.

Again, welcome! —dima 16:12, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Rurikid image and Holodomor

Thanks for a very useful image. I think it is excellent for the Rurikid article, but I took a liberty to remove it from Kievan Rus' which is too broad for it and there are so many images that potentially fit to it, and so many are there now, that we should be careful in selecting. Let's discuss it if you disagree.

As far as Holodomor is conserned, true enough several govs and some scholars view it as Genocide but, at the same time, some academics think otherwise and such view is not restricted to the fringe outcasts in academia. As such, the applicability of the term is not assured. That's why the article has a separate chapter on the issue where the reader is presented with facts and opinions. Stamping a cat over the whole thing means prejudging the issue in advance. --Irpen 17:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Holodomor

Alex, I absolutely agree with you about the cat:genocide vis-a-vis Holodomor, but the nature of Misplaced Pages necessitates your active participation not in just editing but in discussion of your position. People with different background and different conceptions of History edit here. You may continue to insert the cat or you may work towards a consesus whereby the cat will be the accepted categorization. Why don't you give it a try on the Holodomor talk page and present a cogent argument for why the Holodomor is genocide. Best regards, --Riurik 18:10, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Guys, let me state first that, persoanlly, I am undecided on whether H was a Genocide. There are strong arguments in support of such view but the evidence of the applicability of the Genocide (not of the fact that Famine was artificial, which is not seriously disputed) requires a Genocidal intent of the authorities. We have only circumstantial evidence for the latter, that it even once archives were opened, not a single document popped up about Stalin's intent to target Ukrainians specifically, just because they were Ukrainians.

As for presenting the arguments at talk to support that H was a Genocide, this is not our job. The arguments in favor and against are already presented by scholars and our job is to summarize them. We should put aside political statements by the governments because they may (or may not) be politically motivated and restrict the analysis to the scholars, or (as per the Misplaced Pages's systemic bias) to the Western scholarship. Respected representatives of the latter still disagree on the term's applicability and that's what makes the issue different from the Holocaust, where there seems to be no disagreement among the academics. --Irpen 18:23, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

our job is to summarize them that is what I meant.--Riurik 18:26, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and, I repeat, this is not the same thing as to say that the Famine was artificial, which is not disputed. --Irpen 18:31, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Where did you get the idea that scholars from the West are not politically motivated? --Alex Kov 18:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Because no political pressure was on them, and their works are thoroughly peer reviewed. A POV publisher quickly loses his credibility in Western circles. In the former USSR, however, pseudo-scientists like Suvorov continue to exist. -- Grafikm 18:43, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

The statement is very naive. I can give you a huge numer of examples when the West may be EXTREMELY biased. `'mikka (t) 16:11, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Tridents

Actually, it was me who wrote Svyatopolk I in February 2005 and uploaded real (not imaginary) trident-like symbols to this article. On the other hands, your images are factually incorrect, because exact attribution of symbols to one or another of Yaroslav's descendants is purely speculative. Even with seals, which normally bear an image of the ruler's patron saint and his name, attribution frequently presents insurmountable difficulties. What makes these images even less acceptable for an encyclopaedia, is that the symbols are clothed in the Ukranian heraldic colors, which had not been attested before the Galician period of Ukrainian history. In short, unlike the images in the article about Svyatopolk, the modernised interpretations which you uploaded are speculations with a nationalist background. Please read WP:NOR. --Ghirla 09:36, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Crests

Vladimir I of Kiev: Please don't use in historical article pictures you draw yourself. Just as writing some text requires references, images of wikipedian's authorship are inadmissible as a kind of original research. You can upload only photos of authentic objects or drawings prepared by experts and published elsewhere. . Because the main rule is Misplaced Pages:verifiability.`'mikka (t) 16:05, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Cossack history

Thanks for making edits logged in at last. It saves a lot of aggravation. I will research a little of Glaskow's background and post the response at the article's talk in a short while. Please note that if you don't log in, you incovenience your colleagues by making discussions difficult. TIA, --Irpen 04:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Revert warring

Sterile revert warring is extremely disrputive and may get you blocked again. --Irpen 16:41, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I do things in your way. You deleted my images of trydents for "unknown validity". I agreed with it. Now i will delete the self-made images (maps. etc) that were made by others for the same reasons.--Alex Kov 17:33, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Better yet, click on the image you are trying to delete and see that unlike your drawings, the map is sourced. And while at it, also check WP:POINT. --Irpen 17:35, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

What is your problem?

Look why are you revert warring? What difference does it make to you when Cossacks were founded. Most important is their historical prominance. For Russian Cossacks this was the 15th and 16th centuries, when you had the colonisation of Siberia, the wars during the time of troubles, the Russo-Turkish Wars. Zaporozhian Cossacks became prominant only in mid 17th century (which is explained in the paragraph preceding) during the Khmelnitsky uprising. Then during the 18th century Russian Cossacks take over again as being most famous, Napoleonic Wars, Balkans, Caucasus and up until the Russian Civil War. In the 20th century Soviet World, the Ukrainian Cossacks are re-established as the dominant image whilst we are kept out of public view. Now we have Abkhazia, Chechnya, ex-Yugoslavia where we Russian Cossacks made the world recognise our prominance, whist Ukrainian Cossacks, as such do not exist (in terms of military). So its 3:2 in Russian Cossack's favour. I agreed to take out the most prominant and fomous, for consesus sake leave the article as it is. --Kuban Cossack 19:51, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

1. Do not divide Cossacks into nations. There was no national state when they emereged. Thus dispute about "Russain" and "Ukrainian" is nonsense. We can speak only abou the Cossacks who lived on the teritory of modern Russia or Ukraine.
2. Cossacks from Zaporozhya were know in Europe in the 15-16 centuries. Habsburgs and French kings hired them before the Khmelnitsky aprising took place. French, Swedish and Prussian politicains of the 18 century used Cossacks of Zaporozhia in their strategical plans against Russian empire. Only after the Sich was destroyed, and Napoleon decided to blow on Russia, Europeans learned about Don, Yaik and other Cossacks. I dont want to minimize the role of Don Cossacks in conquering Siberia, but for most of Europeans they were unknown. Russia had been seen as non-European state (culturally). So 3:2 in Ukrainian Cossack's favour. However, I dont want to divide them into nationalities.--Alex Kov 09:40, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

This is exactely what the first paragraph is about:

Cossacks became first widely known in western Europe in the mid-seventeenth century as a result of the great revolt of Bohdan Khmelnytsky and the Zaporozhians in Ukraine against the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, which shook the geopolitical foundations of eastern Europe.

However this is not article about the perception of Cossacks to European people, but this is about a general Cossack article. There is a History of Cossacks which expands on this. I am not trying to downplay the significance of the Zaporozhian Host (after all they are my ancestors), but the overall tone of the article has to be neutral. It is true that Cossacks had no ethnicity, but they called themselves Ruthenian - which we continue to do so. (i.e. we are not Veliko- nor Malo- russians, but Russkiye Kazaki). However in that case your Ukrainian to Russian debate loses point, as you have cotradicted yourself. For sake of consensus lets leave the paragraphing like it always was. --Kuban Cossack 13:24, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

See no contradiction but only your desire to show Ruthenian as Russian.--Alex Kov 15:57, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Well it depends on the naming convention, so lets begin with that. Russian for me = Rossiyanin = Citizen of Russia. Ukrainian = Ukrainits = Citizen of Ukraine. Ruthenian = Russkiy = Ethnic Eastern Slavic. The latter group consists of numerous subethnical groups: White Ruthenians = Belorussy = Belarusians; Small Ruthenians = Malorossy = Ethnic Ukrainians; Great Ruthenians = Velikorossy = Ethnic Russians. However, in addition to that there are also Carpathian Rusyns, Pomorians ... and Cossacks which do not fall under the great or small unmbrellas, but under the main Ruthenian peoples' umbrella. The biggest confusion is that in modern terminology Russkiy = Velikoros, which incorrectely "privatised" in the 20th century by the Bolsheviks.

Now then that aside. Let's return to Cossacks. Cossacks are Ruthenian people that do not have ethnicall association with Great or Small Ruthenians. So what is the difference which paragraph goes first. Well from the NPOV (not European one mind you). The one that played the biggest historical role should precede. What have we got for Russians, as I said before, activity takes off in late 13th century and the colonisation of Siberia (Yermak) all the way until the Time of Troubles. The impact of the Zaporozhian Cossacks at this time is not exactely that massive until mid-17th century, when arrives the Khmelnitsky uprising, the Pereyaslavl Rada and the Russo-Swedish war. At this time Don Cossacks make themselves famous with numerous uprisings, in particular Pugachev's. Russo-Turkish wars give both Russian and Ukrainian Cossacks equal prominance. Then with the end of the Sech, the split of the Zaporozhian Host, and the Ukrainian Cossacks after that have no impact on History at all. (For what they are worth and for Michael's analysis on Talk:Cossack only the Danube Cossacks can still be called Ukrainians, however the Azov-Black Sea and the Kuban are from now on Russians). At this time you have Napoleonic Wars, Balkans, Caucasus etc, where Russian Cossacks play a massive role. Russian Civil War, World War II, Modern local conflicts. There are no Ukrainian Cossacks there at all, in none of those pages of history books. So in any case I still see why you choose to put Ukrainians first, as the chronology argument loses value and the European POV is not NPOV. --Kuban Cossack 17:38, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

map

Please do raise the questions you have to the map at the article's talk and try to contact the map's author. Do not just delete it. Regards, --Irpen 17:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC) I've already done it but. No replay. I see no need to keep this badly made map in the Sviatoslav article--Alex Kov 16:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

ru-sib redux

Hello to you here as well. Please stop restoring links to a hate-site like you've done at Ingria.

Why not heed to my advise and write something. Check how many red links the list of Hetmans of Ukrainian Cossacks has! --Irpen 17:58, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted vandal. Hope you will also do so... Concerning articles I've answered you in uk-wiki. --Alex Kov 18:08, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

So, I gather you are not interested in writing articles. Too bad. OK, I will write an article about a couple of Hetmans myself one of these days. Take care and happy revert warring. --Irpen 18:45, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Civility

Hey, there! It seems that you're currently involved in a content dispute at Battle of Konotop -- if you haven't, already, please take a moment to familiarize yourself with our dispute resolution process, which begins with the use of talk pages, and can lead to steps such as a request for comment, a case with the Mediation Cabal or Mediation Committee, and can culminate at the Arbitration Committee.

I see that you've used the word "vandal" in some of your discussion; I'd like to ask that you refrain from doing so, in the future -- quoting from Misplaced Pages:Vandalism: "Any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia, even if misguided or ill-considered, is not vandalism." I encourage you to assume good faith whenever possible, and to keep a cool head whenever possible, working out your disagreements with other users without resorting to name-calling and accusations. This is just a friendly reminder. You are free to discuss, but please be sure to create an environment where people can speak freely and a variety of opinions can be welcomed. Thank you for your time. Kind regards, Luna Santin 10:48, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the message. I've used word "vandal" towards Ghirlandajo because of his rude manner of reverting articles. My thoughts concerning his behavior have already been written down at the "accusations noticeboard by other users whom he accused in making "personal attacks". Bless you,--Alex Kov 07:45, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Ukrainian-German collaboration during World War II

under the header 'Ukrainian women and German soldiers'

Stop deleting the statement of German historian and researcher Kerstin Muth in relation to this topic, especially since you failed the read the talk pages where it is agreed that this is an important addition to the article, what you are doing is vandalism --Yarillastremenog 21:17, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

3RR

You are in danger of violating the three-revert rule. Please cease further reverts or you may be blocked from editing. 128.227.51.157 08:43, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Medieval cuisine

I made this edit because the {{Neutrality}} template isn't what you're looking for; it's {{Globalize}}. In any case, please don't put tags like these on the article while it's on the main page; there is no reason to panic, the problem (if there is one) will be fixed in due course. Also, you might want to have a look at WP:TIGERS. Mikker 09:02, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Battle of Noryang

Dear Alex,

I've reverted your changes in this article. The reason for this is because the battle of Noryang was not suppose to block the entire Japanese army from retreat. It's goal, as clearly stated in the article (and carefully derived from numerous reputable sources), was to keep Konishi and Shimazu seperated and do as much damage as possible to Shimazu's fleet. Once Admiral Yi knew that Shimazu was coming to Konishi's aid, he knew that the blockade was untenuable. All Japanese ships linked up in Pusan and left a week after the battle of Noryang. WangKon936 15:30, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

You have been blocked

Heimstern Läufer 22:44, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Cossacks

Look why are you continuing to troll on the article repeatedly? Why do you always insist on marginalising the Russian role in the Cossacks? Like for example according to Zaporozhian Host article in the aftermath only a small fraction left for the Danube, against those that went to the Kuban, and later many Danubians migrated to the Azov and from there - the Kuban? Or do you disagree that Kuban Cossacks are not considering themselves Ukrainians and thus in your WP:POINT violation it is necessary to "omit" that fact? --Kuban Cossack 16:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Of course, I disagree. Those so-called "Russian Cossacks" of Kuban are just a small part of Cossack traitors who supported Bolsheviks and Red killers. The majority of Cossacks left Kuban with Germans, if you know that. They never consider themselves Russian, as well as Don Cossacks. They were just Cossacks. Kubanian Host in its culture and traditions was linked greatly with Ukraine, but not Russia. They were Ukrainians not in the modern national sense. Ukraine (not national entity but name of the country since 16 century) was the land of their ansestors. Thus they were Ukrainians and still have a strong sentiment to Ukraine. Of course the story of so-called Russian Cossack minority who supported Bolshevik is different... Also I dont understand you desire to minimalize the role of Ukraine and its culture in Kuban. Its very POVish. I also want to warn you that if you wont be civil (troll...) in your expressions I would ask admins to punish you for that.

Are you threatning me? Lol for the comments, but if you think that we are insignificant today, and btw if collaborating with Nazism=good for you, then really you just smeared your own image. As for Kuban Cossacks, don't worry about them, but it was us who took Sukhumin in 1993 as well as Trans-Dniester and a few other conflicts. We have two armoured brigades and a VDV parachute regiment (25 thousand men in total). And 90% of us are pure descendants of Kuban Cossacks, although just because we chose not to collaborate with the Germans and fight in the 4th Guards Kuban Cossack Regiment of the Red Army (who later walked on the Red Square in 1945) we do not see ourselves as traitors. Actually to this day we are loyal to the Pereyaslav Rada, and just like in the olden days when the Kuban Cossacks made up the majority of the Imperial guards, more than 70% of the Kremlin Guard are pure Kuban Cossacks ;) So please watch the personal attacks, and stop this BS about a Ukrainian Kuban which never existed and never will exist. --Kuban Cossack 12:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

So, are you the desedent of those colaborators with Commmunist? Those who helped NKVD and later KGB in murder Cossacks in Kuban and Don? Do you think that they are "real Cossacks"?. Well, you expose your real face. Tell this tales about Pereyaslav Rada to somebody else. The oawth was given to the tsar and monarchy, but not the Red bloody regime. Cossacks defended the throne and they did it to the last. You call modern "Kuban Cossacks" faithfull, but its look oposite. They are the traitors of monarchy and Bolshevik agents. I wonder how such people can call themselves "Cossacks"? Looks like a game in modern Russia and Ukraine.

Concernig your comment: Firstly, the majority of Cossacks left Kuban and Don with Germans. I gave no evaluation of this fact. Only say that is bad or good. I see it only from position of historian. The modern Kuban Cossacks are the Cossacks as well as the modern French are the Franks. Secondly, your effort to minimalize the role of Ukraine in the role of formation and culture of Kuban is vain. Its already fixed in the history that Kuban and Ukraine has a very close ties. --Alex Kov 16:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)