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Revision as of 08:27, 4 September 2003

• Old talk on homicide bombing is at talk:homicide bombing

I tried to define suicide bombing objectively, as well as to present two of the main ethical appraisals of it. A difficulty in discussing anything to do with "terrorism" is, of course, that many advocates persuasively maintain that their side isn't guilty of terrorism: their targets are legitimate, the women and children aren't innocent, and so forth.

It can be difficult to refute such arguments, while consistently justifying the military bombing of cities in declared war: e.g., Dresden, Hiroshima.

I don't think I have a handle on the issue. I just yearn for a world where no one would ever want to kill anyone!!! Ed Poor

IMHO the specific act of suicide bombing is inherently neither terrorist nor non-terrorist. It is only one tactic among many others. The specific choice of target determines its terrorist nature. Eclecticology This is also follows the definition of terrorism used in the article linked.

I tried to add some reasons to suicide bombings as I don't think "they are Arabs" is enough really :-) It's badly written and probably not NPOV so feel welcome to edit it. Then it struck me, after watching a documentary about firearms in USA, are the suicide massacres in some way similar to suicide bombings? You know where someone shoots 1 - 2 dozen people and then commits suicide before the police comes. Like the Columbine (sp?) Highschool massacre and so on. --BL

I worry about the focus on Islamic or Arab in this article. Even if true (and I am not immediatley convinced it is) I would think that the description should not include ethnic linkages. After the description, a list of groups engaging in suicide bombing (and notes on cynide capisuls), and perhaps a note that most suicide attacts are Arab or Islamic (assuming it's true) with a brief note of explination - such as currently large number of Islamic people feel that their religion, values, and countries are under attack by the west, and are unable to respond in any other way. I note that Islam has very strong prohibitions against suicide, this probably should also be covered. - Karl

The article clearly states that suicide bombing is not accepted by most countries. I am recommending that as an addition, the quote from the Koran on prohibition against suicide also be added. In general, it should be quite clear that suicide bombing is not considered generally acceptable. This too can be stated. It IS important to say why people engange in suicide bombing. Given the rather strong comdemnation of it in the general description, no rebuttal is necessary. If one group is singled out, then the reasons that this group engages in suicide bombing is important. I don't think that the truth of these reasons needs to be debated, rather when listing the reasons, comments like the Palistinian people believe that ... An additional section on the results of suicide bombing, ie escellating violence, terroristic responsees by the victim countries, demonization, evaporation of public support... (again without justifications... with the obvious result of escelating results until someone backs down (Sira Lanka might be a good example here.)Karl

Removed para:

Israel does everything possible only to target known terrorists who happen to also be civilians or to be posing as civilians. An unbaised observer should conclude, based on the record, that Israel does all it can to avoid collateral damage among innocent civilians, a task made near impossible when terrorists use civilians as human shields, invade and take over religious shrines such as the Church of the Nativity, or flee to and hide in densly populated civilian areas while being pursued. The record unfortunately shows, on the other hand, that Palestinian bombers tend to strive to do all they can to seek out maximum casualties among civilians. Reviewing their attacks one finds they prefer crowded buses, shopping or dining areas and other places where one bomb will have maximum killing effect among innocent civilians. This effect is further enhanced by deliberate addition of shrapnel to the bombs, for instance by packing large numbers of nails or other such items around the explosives. Finally they also have been known to arrange for a second bomb timed to go off in the same area when emergency crews have gathered and are working to recover the dead and relive the wounded. Each of these tactics is carefully, deliberately calculated to maximize casualties among civilians.

The above passage needs some serious NPOV work before the few sentences of good, non-redundant material within it can be included back into the article (much of the above is already stated in the article, albeit in a more - yet still not great - NPOV way). --mav

• The Japanese kamikaze bombers for example clearly had other alternatives, and were not all that interested in altering the policies of a country in the way suicide bombers from terrorist groups are.

As a general rule, when a writer says something is clearly so, they're usually expressing their own opinion. Otherwise they would provide the fact that they imply is so "clear". To be neutral (or even to make sense), the above comment should indicate what "alternatives" the kamikaze pilots had. (The only thing I can think of is just tolerating failure of their bombing missions due to inability to deliver bombs accurately enough.) --Ed Poor 20:34 Dec 4, 2002 (UTC)

ah - I was under the impression that the japanese were using suicide bombing as a tactic in and of itself, from quite early in the war - before the failure of their bombing missions was so apparent. Similary, they were not doing that badly in the first part of the war, unless of course you are arguing that it was the suicide bombing that caused the japanese success. No matter. The purpose of the sentence was to try to show an example which did not include all the points listed. As opposed to discuss a point in detail. Karl

If an article edit is worth 1,000 comments, I put up Suicide bombing/temp to express my ideas on the current article. DanKeshet 21:21 Dec 4, 2002 (UTC)

Karl, I'm not trying to impose my views. If you have a reason for omitting my 3 paragraphs on military and "irregular" tactics, I'm happy to discuss it here on the talk page. Often when two people edit the same article rapidly, an "edit conflict" and one or both contributors lose their work. I would rather just come back later if you need to have the article to yourself for a while. --Ed Poor

Ed - i like your changes as currently made Karl

Thanks, but I found an even better version by DanKeshet. So I replaced all my work and your work with his version. This will be my last edit for now. I want to let everyone else have a chance, and I don't want anyone to feel I am "imposing" anything. --Ed Poor

it's fine, just as long as middle east warfare stays in other articles. You "imposing" things? Na! Who would ever do such a thing! :) Karl

It's so easy for me to "detect" bias in others, but usually awfully hard to see my own bias. I tend to think I always write neutrally, but several times a week someone has to correct me -- then I see my error. I guess we all have to coach each other. Anyway, I'm giving this article a rest till tomorrow. Come take a look at Palestinian, which I just spent an hour completely re-writing. --Ed Poor

Haven't the article lost alot since a few dozen edits? Like the discussion about the typical suicide bomber, reasons (or theories on) why it exists, countermeasures and so on? And I don't understand why there aren't ANY text related to the Palestinian suicide bombers. It is in Palestine/Israel that most of them occur. Anyway, I'll be back.. in a few days :-) Nice to see Ed too --BL

Oh dear, this is one of the most appallingly biased entries it has been my misfortune to see on Misplaced Pages. After a heavy edit, it's still poor, but improved a little at any rate. I removed this para of Righteous Revenge rhetoric:

The kamikaze attacks against American warships in 1944 and 1945 as Japan was already losing the war, only further antagonized the fighting men of America against the Japanese. American rage and firepower was unleashed onto the Japanese mainland by US bombers in massive fire-raid bombings that killed tens of thousands of Japanese citizens on Japanese soil. And when America finally dropped two atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in September of 1945 there was little mercy felt for the Japanese people because of their attack on America at Pearl Harbor in December 1941and culminating with the futile tactics of kamikazes as they lost the war.

because (a) it's difficult to see how Allied forces could have felt any more rage than they already did after the atrocities of the early part of the war (many of which were only coming to light in 1944/45 as Allied troops occupied areas where the Japanese had been in control - Burma, Phillipines, Borneo, and so on), (b) the bombing of Japan had been planned long before the kamikaze attacks began, and the bombing of Germany (which had nothing to do with kamikaze attacks) was in no way different, (c) because Pearl Harbor is completely irrelevant.

I have not the slightest intention of touching the Israli-Palestinian stuff, nor even of passing an opinion on it. I'll leave that one to those who take an interest in that conflict and are qualified to judge. The final S11 para reeks of righteousness, but I'll leave that one alone too, at least for now.

Tannin 08:55 Feb 16, 2003 (UTC)

Hey, I deleted "perfidious".  :) -- Zoe

I didn't see "perfidious". Guess I was too busy swing that axe. Pity, the word has a nice ring to it. Now, if I could only work out how to get "perfidious" and "recalcitrant" into the same sentence, I'd go into politics. :) Tannin

Why would we bother to have any amateur assessments of its effectiveness? If there's somebody who's done a military study of the circumstances in which it can or has been effective, we should include it, but barring that, I don't see the need for armchair analysis. DanKeshet 16:29 Feb 16, 2003 (UTC)

"I tried to add some reasons to suicide bombings as I don't think "they are Arabs" is enough really :-) It's badly written and probably not NPOV so feel welcome to edit it. Then it struck me, after watching a documentary about firearms in USA, are the suicide massacres in some way similar to suicide bombings? You know where someone shoots 1 - 2 dozen people and then commits suicide before the police comes. Like the Columbine (sp?) Highschool massacre and so on. --BL"

Though not really a suicide bombing exactly, they both share the same essential feature of a terrorist act performed by a person with no regard to their own safety or future. The absolutely bizzare thing though, and something which really needs to be explained, here or anywhere, is why suicide bombings? If you don't care about living, couldn't you do better by running down the street with a machine gun?

The Eric Rudolph reference fits this article not at all; he obviously lived through it. - Hephaestos 04:23, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Homicide bombing includes both ppl that live through it and those that don't .... (mabey a seperate article for Homicide bombing is needed?) reddi 04:42, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I think another article would be a good idea, yes. - Hephaestos 05:44, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I'll try to do it if no one has objection ... unless someone else get the opprotunity before I do ... reddi 07:38, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Neologism

I protected this page due to the edit war. It will remain protected until a consensus is reached on this page. --Jiang 08:01, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Who protected it on Reddi's version? Clearly "suicide bombing" is not an invented term, it's a perfectly ordinary compound use of established words. It just became commonplace in the 1980s because that was when suicide bombings became commonplace. Reddi just wants to equate the terms "suicide bombing" and "homicide bombing" for obvious reasons. --Wik 07:23, Sep 4, 2003 (UTC)

Please look at this link http://www.wordspy.com/words/suicidebomber.asp and the Neologism article ... I'll be moving anymore discussion to Talk:Suicide bombing ... it's not because I want to equate the 2 ... it's is because they are both Neologisms reddi 07:34, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

All right, let's try to have a vote here.

For the description of "suicide bombing" as a "neologism":

• (none yet)

Against:

• Wik

Wik ... what is this vote for? the definiton of what is a neologism? I think the neologism article say that ... and suicide bombing has only been around for 20 years (the neologisms of videotape is about as old and radar is alot older) ... a vote isn't gonna change facts (unless that's how wiki handles things like this ... changing facts to fit votes) .... reddi

It's you who's not listening to facts. The neologism article says a neologism is an invented word. "Suicide bombing" didn't need to be invented. The meaning doesn't need explanation. If many people were suddenly to start having elephants as pets, the term "pet elephant" would naturally "appear" (in the same way "suicide bombing" "appeared" in the 1980s); it wouldn't be a neologism. And of course it's impossible to prove when such a term was first used. So your 1981 citation is only the first use known to the WordSpy site, but it's very unlikely that it was in fact the first time anyone used it.

The vote is to solve the matter by a majority decision. Then the one who still goes against it should be regarded as a vandal with all that might entail. Otherwise this edit war will just go on forever. (I thought your vote was obvious, but if you don't want to participate, that's fine, you'll still have to accept the result.) --Wik 08:03, Sep 4, 2003 (UTC)

I just searched the New York Times archives and found this reference from 1960: "It turned out that the heavily insured man who is suspected of a suicide bombing of an airliner was a young man in trouble. At the time of his death, Julian Andrew Frank, one of thirty-four victims, was entangled in a web of complicated financial deals and was facing charges in some of them." (NYT, January 16, 1960, p. 23). --Wik 08:26, Sep 4, 2003 (UTC)

It's me who's not listening to facts? oh ok ... attack me and not the particulars of the discussion .... The neologism article says a neologism is an invented word. "Suicide bombing" was invented (about 20yrs ago).

The meaning does need explanation. (all word have to be explained at one tiome or anouther ... also words change meaning over time (like conservative had a opposite meaning than it does today 100yrs ago)).

... naturally "appear" (in the same way "suicide bombing" "appeared" in the 1980s); it wouldn't be a neologism? ... I think i see what you are saying... that suicide bombing is just a compound ... but that same logic can be applied to homicide bombing (i.e., homicide bombing ...

It's impossible to prove when such a term was first used? no ... really ... the proof is in the citation that it is first recorded ... sure it could have been used causally, but it's not the intent (just like homicide bombing was used in 1979 (and probably way before too), but it's implication was not fully fashioned till the late 1990s).

... citations are the only way to really now the first use occured ...

solve the matter by a majority decision? so change fact to fit votes? that's not too accurate ...

edit war will just go on forever? ummm ... isn't there another way to go about it? there has to be another way ... mabey ppl should edit toward something and not away from something (like putting info in and not taking it out ... it's that a wikitip when you become an editor, i thought i saw that somewhere? ...)

reddi 08:27, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I have reverted the page to the last version before the edit war started. This is fair to both parties and can be easily undone once a consensus solution emerges. I strongly advise sysops against tinkering with this page until that time. Thrash it out here on the talk page, make a /temp page to work out a suitable formulation, whatever. But we should not be editing protected pages.

please revert the page to a version that has some information (as that version is really low on content) ... or atleast just take out the neologism parts ... as that version is ancient and leaves alot of inforamtion out ....

could soneone make a /temp page? I'd like to work to get the information out ... and get to (what I hope) a compromise (somehow). reddi 08:27, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Reddi says (on my talk page) Ummm ... the last page before the edit war on suicide bombing was by Hephaestos. I considered using that as my even-handed revert point, Reddi, particularly as Hephaestos is a very well-respected contributor with a great deal of experience. However, the page history shows a great many edits by you and by Wik in the few days prior to Hephaestos' edit also, so to make sure that I was not favouring either one of you, I went back a little further, to mid-May and The Cunctator's edit (i.e., before you and Wik became involved.) It is possible that one of the immediately following edits would have done equally well. The main thing was to make sure that the temporary version did not favour you and did not favour Wik. The sooner you, Wik, and the Misplaced Pages community negotiate a sensible wording, the sooner we get rid of the locked temp page and get back to improving the 'pedia. (Naturally, I do not intend to become involved in this dispute myself, save as an umpire trying to ensure fair play.) Tannin 08:20, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)