Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:09, 29 June 2007

Okay, finished the basic stuff for the page. Whew. JAF1970 19:18, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Nice work! Brjason 03:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Just about finished, but what are sparks?

Okay, I just about finished the page (with 2 contributions from SeanMooney), but what the heck are sparks and how do you get them? JAF1970 15:39, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

You hold the analog stick in the direction of the corner before you turn the corner of the maze, and it makes sparks come from Pac-Man. This slightly increases his speed, so you can use this to escape from ghosts that are right behind you. SeanMooney 22:48, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Iwatani's retirement

This article ought to mention that it was Toru Itawani's final game for Namco, and released right before he announced his retirement. Kouban 13:23, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Done. It was mentioned in that Joystiq article as well. JAF1970 15:13, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Pear, Pineapple or Hand Grenade?

Look at the "pear". Is it officially a pear in text somewhere? It's kind of hard to tell. I still can't tell. JAF1970 16:26, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Are you referring to the green thing with the "handle" attached? That's actually a melon - this exact shape is used on MANY Japanese products (candies, sodas, etc) that feature melon flavoring. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 19:33, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Quick addition: The melon is referenced in the Achievements for the 360 release of the original Pac-Man (one of the achievements is to eat the melon - aka reach a certain stage). — KieferSkunk (talk) — 20:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok, you convinced me. I changed it a while ago. :p JAF1970 20:46, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Do not mass delete

Please do not mass delete entire sections of the article. That is considered vandalism. JAF1970 23:31, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

No, it isn't. KieferSkunk explained the removal in the edit summaries. According to Misplaced Pages:Vandalism: " significant content removals are usually not considered to be vandalism where a non-frivolous explanation for the removal of apparently legitimate content is provided, linked to, or referenced in an edit summary." See Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Video games/Article guidelines#Scope of information for more information on what was referred to as "game-guide material". Dancter 00:02, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Wholesale deletions without real discussion is vandalism. JAF1970 00:24, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

For example: removing the fruit table? The other Pac-articles have them. The reason is flippant. Removing the "!" in the Achievement box? They're there because the actual achievements use the exclamation points. If you want to condense the gameplay changes, fine, but some of that "reasoning" was making changes for the sake of making changes. Oh, and exists. If you need a citation, post the fact citation. JAF1970 00:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I feel that the fruit table should be removed from Pac-Man as well. IMO, it doesn't belong in that article any more than it does here. The reason I haven't removed it, however, is because some of the people who've gotten after me about including too much game-guide material in other articles have a tendency to ardently defend its presence there. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 00:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Alright, since I'm being talked about here, let me put in my two cents: I do not vandalize articles. I explain in great detail (sometimes I have to cut down my explanations because the edit-summary line doesn't give me much room) what I'm doing with each edit and why I'm doing it. We are encouraged to be bold and make edits in good faith that we believe will help the overall article and the health of the wiki, as well as in adhering to WP policy.

That said, this round of edits that I made was in the interest of condensing the article to make it easier to read, relevant, and to cut down on items that constitute "game-guide" material. JAF, I'm a little surprised that you're getting after me about this, since you and I have sparred over game-guide material in the past and then have worked together to resolve issues like this in other articles. I'm no fan of the "no game-guide material" policy, but I'm trying to work in good faith to adhere to it since it is the currently adopted policy of WP. (I'm working on finding the specific policy link - I'll post it in a moment.)

I encourage discussion. Since I felt I was very clear on what I was doing and why, I didn't start a discussion on the edits - I just went ahead and made them. But that doesn't mean we can't discuss them. Feel free to start one, and we'll go from there. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 00:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I still don't understand your concept of "Game Guide". It is not a strategy guide. This is basic information on the page that I wrote from scratch. Take a look at the Wiki Assessment Scale for a bit and see that you're supposed to include stuff so that researchers can take information from the page. People with no knowledge of the subject should come away with a good amount of it. Do you think removing the information helped? I think not. And again, maybe you should file protests in here, and learn to use the "". JAF1970 00:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Look, if I could have my way, we'd document all of the little quirks and Easter eggs that make every game unique and noteworthy, but these are not my policies. It's not my concept. "Elements such as strategies for defeating enemies, scoring details, lists of enemies and environments, and other information not essential to understanding the game as a whole, should be kept to a minimum." Does the fruit table help a first-time reader understand how to play Pac-Man?

As for citations: {{fact}} is not always appropriate when the disputed information is patently false. I did a search among official gaming sites, including Xbox.com, and could not find a single one that mentioned Pac-Man C.E. as being named Pac-Man 2. It may be thought of as such by the community, but that does not make it an official title. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 00:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, just as you felt I vandalized the article by making a lot of edits to it, I feel slighted by your mass reversion of all my edits without discussion as well. Please assume good faith unless you have good reason to think otherwise. I do it with you, and I'd ask no less from you. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 00:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, WHAT quirks and WHAT Easter eggs?!?!?! For one, removing the descriptions of modes was BASIC INFO published by the devs A WHILE AGO. Stating "Championship Mode", "Extra Mode 1", "Extra Mode 2"... WHAT info does that IMPART?!?!?!?!?!?!?! JAF1970 00:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

If you go back and look at my edit for that particular part, you'll notice I said "unsourced". I did not say "patently false" here. "unsourced" means that, to my best judgement, it was information that did not have any basis from official sites. If you have an official site, put the information back and LINK IT in a reference! This is not difficult. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 00:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm contacting User:SeanMooney. This is out of hand. JAF1970 00:55, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest you take a moment, calm down, and realize that I am not trying to attack you or your work. I am trying to help. Please stop making it seem like I'm trying to hurt things here, okay? I have a feeling SeanMooney will probably say something similar. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 00:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm perferctly fine. Just immensely confused and a little dismayed that you'd take a brick bat to the article. Hey, go to Carcassonne (board game) and work on that - remove all of the ways to play the game, the scoring tables, etc. See what sort of response you get there. JAF1970 01:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Here, take a look at this paragraph from the article that Dancter linked to above. This should clarify my use of a "brick bat": A general rule of thumb to follow if unsure: if the content only has value to people actually playing the game, it's unsuitable. Keep in mind that video game articles should be readable and interesting to non-gamers; remember the bigger picture.

Much of the information I removed or condensed does NOT have significant value to non-gamers and people completely unfamiliar with the game. A list of the fruits and their individual scores would not make a non-gamer any more likely to want to buy the game and play it than if they didn't know that information. Whereas, information about how the mazes change over time and seeing key gameplay differences from the original Pac-Man article would be far more likely to influence the reader. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 01:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

"Consequently, it is possible (and in fact a central strategy of the game) to "chain" power pellets for higher scores." I never put that in there. I thought you didn't want a "game guide". That sounds like strategy to me. I don't put strategy in my game articles, unless it's under a "Strategy" section, which I seldom put in the first place. JAF1970 01:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

(REVISED REPLY) That also happens to be an essential gameplay element. That's why I put it in there. If it were not one of the main points of the game, I would not have included it. And note that I did not go into any more detail than that. I could have said "Ghosts score 400, 800, 1200 points and so on, up to a maximum of 3200 points, as long as a power pellet stays in effect." (In fact, some form of that statement WAS in the older version of the article before I revised it.) The power-pellet chaining element is one of the essential differences between this Pac-Man and the old Pac-Man. Specifics on what points the ghosts score are not. (Also: Note that I never claimed to be perfect. I make mistakes.) — KieferSkunk (talk) — 01:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, puh-lease. That's rationalization for your own benefit. You can't delete some stuff saying it's "game guide" (such as just listing the game modes names and not their content) then include extraneous stuff claiming it's "essential" to understanding the game. Can't have your cake and eat it too. JAF1970 01:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

And by the way, the scoring of ghosts is more informative than spewing out your ideas of strategy, which is, by the way, SUBJECTIVE INFORMATION. The scoring of ghosts and the fact the scoring is maintained when etc etc is OBJECTIVE INFORMATION. JAF1970 01:16, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, go ahead and get an admin involved if you like. We can sit here and argue over this all day, but frankly, I have better things to do with my time. Let me know when you're ready to drop that attitude of yours and talk reasonably. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 01:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

You bet I will get Sean involved. He's part of the WikiVideoGames Project, and we've more or less been tag-teaming stuff. If I recall, he's a Brit, so my email probably reached him while sleeping. You go and do whatever you like. I'm going to wait for his mediation. JAF1970 01:20, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the attempt to intimidate me. I will note it in my own report to the WP administrative staff when I have time. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 01:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding this specific edit: When I removed the name "Pac-Man 2" earlier, there WAS NO REFERENCE to that particular element. Now that there is one to a reputable source, I'm satisfied and will leave it in. Thank you for clarifying it. But... please, do your homework before you get snarky with me. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 01:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I await Sean. And by the way, your dictionary writing skills are lacking. Let me pick it apart for you:

Power pellets stay active for a set period of time (rather than shutting off when all ghosts have been eaten). Consequently, it is possible (and in fact a central strategy of the game) to "chain" power pellets for higher scores.

1. It's verbose and repetitive. 2. You use undefined colloquial terms ("chain"?). 3. There's no mention of how much the ghosts score.

Trust me, I went to Bronx High School of Science where the #1 thing they teach is research. Your edits are unjustified and sweeping, and basically made a hash of the article. JAF1970 01:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a point? I'd rather see you direct that energy into improving the article than defending yourself and attacking me. You're not doing yourself or your friend any favors by continuing to make me out to be the bad guy here. Now please, let's work together on this, okay? — KieferSkunk (talk) — 02:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

There, happy? -_- — KieferSkunk (talk) — 03:34, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry I can't get too involved in this debate at the moment, as I am dealing with a death in my family right now and will be extremely busy most of this week. But after a quick look at the page, here are my thoughts:

• I don't think KieferSkunk meant anything bad or "vandalized" the page. Although I disagree with a few of his edits, they seem to have been in good faith. He even corrected a few of his own mistakes.
• Please understand that JAF worked very hard on this page adding almost all of the information and keeping it up to date. I think it's only fair that you should've discussed things first on the talk page before just suddenly removing a lot of information.
• You deleted the entire game modes/challenge modes section which is a crucial part of the game and one of the main differences in Pac-Man CE. Although you added some of it back elsewhere, it was far less informative, almost to the point of being useless. What does "Challenge Mode 2 (Dark, 10 minutes)" tell the reader? JAF's descriptions were better written and more informative to readers.
• My personal opinion is that the page was mostly fine before, only needing minor edits. It was not overly long and did not need very much condensing. It was formatted well and easy to read. It did not read like a game guide to me either - since the whole point of Pac-Man CE is to get the best possible score in the time limit, listing scoring details is necessary (as long as it's not overboard).

But whatever, instead of arguing over who is right and who is wrong, we should reach a consensus on how to improve the page. SeanMooney 03:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for weighing in, and I'm sorry to hear about your family. My condolences. I'd like to clarify that I was not upset so much at the topic of the debate (my edits and which policies we should be following), as I was at the way I was being addressed. I felt that JAF was going beyond simply calling my edits into question and was both directly and indirectly accusing me of acting in bad faith, vandalizing the article, and attacking him and his work. I do not feel that I was, but I apologize if my wording and attitude made me seem as such.

It seems to be difficult to get everyone to agree on where that fine line is between too much information and too little. This is obviously a touchy subject for some. I am mainly upset at the way the discussion fell apart into what looked to me like a lot of grandstanding on both sides. I took some time to cool off and am ready to come back to the table and discuss things more calmly. I can only hope that JAF is willing to as well.

JAF: I understand you put a lot of effort into this article, and I appreciate that. It's the hard work of people like you that make Misplaced Pages great. Just understand that not everyone is going to agree on all points. We're all here for the same purpose: To make these articles as good and informative as possible. So like I said earlier, please don't be so quick to judge me and/or other people when we collide like this - we can discuss and resolve things reasonably and without resorting to personal attacks and insults. I apologize for my end of this, and I'd like to see this resolved peacefully. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 04:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Pac-Man 2

So, in the above debate, the subject of "Pac-Man 2" came up as a title, and I mentioned that I was happy with the citation that was put in to support this alternative title. Later, though, I read through the article and found it actually does not refer to the game as such, and neither do any of the other sources I could find. I did find comments in forums and the comments section of the Joystiq article saying the game SHOULD have been called Pac-Man 2, but the official title seems to be limited only to Championship Edition.

It may also be worth noting that there is, in fact, another game named Pac-Man 2: The New Adventures - a side-scrolling game loosely based on the cartoon series. Obviously, I can't speak for the game developers, but I can see why having two related games both called "Pac-Man 2" would be confusing. That is probably why this one didn't take that title. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 04:34, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Blue Ghost Needs fix

This allows the player to eat another pellet while the first one is still active, causing the ghosts to remain blue, resulting in progressively higher points per ghost. This is wrong. In any Pac-Man, you could eat another pellet while they were blue - but the effect was that the point scoring was reset. This is a clumsy and inaccurate way of saying it (my original article explained it quite clearly.) JAF1970 20:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

(still annoyed at the way you promote yourself.) Geez. Just fix it and stop calling so much attention to how great you are, okay? :P — KieferSkunk (talk) — 20:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not "promoting" myself. I'm saying that because the way I had it was correct, and now I'm not sure how to rephrase it anymore with the way it is now. JAF1970 20:25, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, I disagree that your original wording was very clear at all. All it said was that it maintained the scoring level while power pellets were in effect. Only an experienced gamer familiar with the ins and outs of Pac-Man is likely to understand what that means. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 20:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

This looks fine

Should be no real reason to update it without breaking news. JAF1970 03:20, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Maze descriptions

Manhattan course: How do the maze patterns shift any more wildly in this course than they do in all the others? In my opinion, the Manhattan course seems to have the most repititious patterns of all the courses. I'd say that the patterns change just as wildly in, say, the "Patience and reward" course as they do in the Manhattan course. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 20:31, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Scoring Details

I'd like to open up more discussion on scoring charts and details on this article (and related Pac-Man articles). Basically, as it stands now, JAF1970 and SeanMooney (two people who have contributed most of the original content of this article) believe that scoring details should be included in the article. From the debate above, Sean's reasoning is that the main purpose of the game is to score as many points as possible in a set time limit, so scoring details should be included so long as they don't go overboard.

Personally, I disagree with this rationale. I do not believe that a first-time reader who has never played Pac-Man C.E. will benefit from seeing an exhaustive list of fruits and their score values, seeing details about what points ghosts score, etc. Simply mentioning that the game has bonus fruits based on those of the original Pac-Man, each with larger score values, the dots can increase in score over time, and ghosts score progressively higher values as they're eaten, SHOULD be enough. It is usually up to the player to discover the scoring system and the essential strategies needed to achieve the highest score.

Basically, my argument is that the scoring details constitute material that is more appropriate for a strategy guide, and thus for one of the gaming-specific Wikis. I cite a reference to the CVGProj Guidelines in the debate above to support this position. I have also removed very similar content from other articles (see Galaga '88 for an example) with no objections, and I have previously had large amounts of such content removed under those guidelines. So I believe that having it here makes for an inconsistent application of the CVGProj guidelines.

I realize that such scoring details are included in other Pac-Man articles, including the original Pac-Man article. I disagree with their presence there as well - iconic as those fruits and ghost values have become among gamers and the industry, the details about them do not help a non-gamer understand the essence of Pac-Man as a whole. The list of fruits and the points per ghost are essentially minutae that would be more appropriate in a strategy guide.

So, I'd like to discuss this here, and to get more people involved if possible. I'll bring up a similar topic on Talk:Pac-Man as well. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 22:48, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you erase all the scoring details of other articles, too. (rolling eyes)

Right now, the article is fine. You remove any data, I'll undo it quickly. Period. JAF1970 01:29, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

So you're declaring yourself the owner and protector of this content now? So much for being polite. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 03:59, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

FYI: I am calling for consistent application of the policies and guidelines. If that means removing scoring details from all gaming articles, then that's what I'll push for. If we reach consensus in that direction, then I will help to update articles to that end as I'm able. If consensus is reached to leave the details in the article, then I will be arguing for their inclusion in all the other articles where they have been removed. Do you have a problem with that, Mr. JAF? — KieferSkunk (talk) — 04:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm declaring that this is not your article to do with as you please, and you're just attempting to remove the content that you were explicitly told not to remove by more than one person. Accept it, and move on. JAF1970 04:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

*ahem* I said reach a consensus, and if I recall, YOU were the one who got after me for not discussing things. Two people do not a consensus make, sir.

I am filing a request for mediation, because it is apparent that I cannot reason with you directly. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 04:40, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

You've been mediated already:

I'll have to bother Sean once more thanks to you about this. If you hate scoring references, you're going to be very busy on Misplaced Pages erasing all scoring references. Starting with board and card games as well as computer. Your heavy-handed editing is becoming tiresome. JAF1970 04:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

JAF, do you want people to discuss issues with you or do you not? You got after me for not surfacing issues when you claimed I was vandalizing this article. Sean also made the point that scoring details are "necessary". I disagree, and I am TRYING to get more opinions into this discussion than just yours, his and mine. As I said, two people to one does not mean there's consensus.

If you're going to claim that discussion should take place over differences of opinion on a matter, then stop shooting me down whenever I try to do exactly that. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 05:10, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that it's been discussed. You're simply not abiding by arbitration. JAF1970 05:24, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that it has been discussed. There has been extremely little discussion from any objective, logical standpoint about why the scoring details should stay vs. why they should go. All that's been said of any substance (other than my arguments against) is that it's a game in which scoring plays a factor, and that the fruits are present in the original Pac-Man article. That's it. The rest has been this pointless yelling that you and I have been doing at each other. Yes, the opinions are currently 2 to 1 in your favor, but I do not agree that that counts as "arbitration", nor do I agree that it means consensus has been reached. There are hundreds of thousands of people who use Misplaced Pages every day, and I would like to solicit just a few more opinions before I'll consider the matter closed.

I am not making any edits regarding the scoring details at this time. I am asking for more discussion, and you are consistently shooting it down and insisting it does not need to be discussed. THAT, among other things, is why I have requested mediation. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 05:31, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Correction: It's not been discussed to your satisfaction to the outcome you desire. You have a set mind on how you want this article to be, which is contrary to all other game articles, video game articles, and Pac-Man articles. I'm going to have to petition this article be completely locked if you persist in this. JAF1970 05:35, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

You're right, I'm not satisfied with the level of discussion. Because aside from one comment from Sean, the only discussion has been from you. Yes, you're right - I have an agenda. I want to see the policies enforced equally and consistently across all articles that they govern. And your claim that my view is contrary to all other game articles is highly inaccurate, because I have seen the exact same type of scoring details DELETED from other game articles citing the policies I have cited here.

Good luck getting the article locked down. I doubt the administrators will go for that. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 05:47, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

JAF vs. KieferSkunk (temporary)

You received moderation. You got your answer - which is no. "(still annoyed at the way you promote yourself.)" - quote by you above. How DARE you say that. I just checked your User page - my God, I've never seen someone promote themselves so badly. You actually have on the links people giving you testimonials (anecdotal evidence). And you call ME a self-promoter. "The fox is always the first to smell his own hole". On my page, I only put that I speak English. No more. I've worked on as many (if not more) articles than you have. Not only are you pushy, obstinate and unable to accept the word "no", but a hypocrite as well. Don't call anyone a "self-promoter". Ever. Again. JAF1970 15:02, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

JAF, if you have an issue with me personally, take it up on my Talk page, and keep article discussions on-topic. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 21:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Trying this again...

Just in case I wasn't clear last night, let me try stating this again so it's clear to anyone and everyone who might wade through all of this: I am calling for an open discussion among interested WP editors on whether or not scoring details such as the fruit table should remain in this article or moved to a gaming-specific Wiki. Currently, we only have three stated opinions about this matter on this Talk page - my own (remove them), JAF1970 (keep them) and SeanMooney (keep them). I am looking for a larger consensus, as I do not feel a 2-1 decision is enough to make a sweeping decision that potentially affects hundreds of articles. And I am looking for real discussion, and to see what people's reasons are for wanting to keep or remove these details. I believe that by arriving at a consensus, we can resolve the current apparent ambiguity that exists in the CVGProj guidelines, as I maintain they are not being equally and consistently applied to all articles within the scope of CVGProj.

Yes, it has been stated already, further above and in other article Talks, that Pac-Man includes the fruit table and other scoring details, and thus it sets a precedent for articles such as this one. I don't believe that that is a sufficient reason alone to keep the status quo. If we arrive at a consensus that such scoring details should stay, then I will be happy with the decision and will leave the articles as-is, and will push to have such details restored to other game articles where they were removed. If we arrive at a consensus to remove the scoring details, then I will work toward that end and will encourage others to do so as well. In either case, such a consensus can help to clarify what appears to be an ambiguous rule in WP policy and guidelines, and should help to prevent disputes such as this one in the future.

Please feel free to express your opinions here. Thank you. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 17:03, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

In other words, you didn't get the consensus you wanted, so you'll continue to try to campaign for your own ideas to be selected. Why can't you just leave the article be with the two people who did most of the work building it? JAF1970 21:09, 29 June 2007 (UTC)