Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 02:52, 9 August 2007

disruptive editing by User:Isarig

Template:RFChist Please do not put bogus tags on this page in order to prove a WP:POINT on another page. It's a pretty clear instance of WP:STALK as well as WP:POINT to follow me to another page in order to make bogus claims just so you can prove a false point on the MEMRI page. This paper is notable on its face and the only reason you are questioning it is to try to justify your unprecedented and uncalled for deletion of sourced and cited material from respected authorities that happened to be published in this paper. Please stop the nonsense; this is an encyclopedia, not a playground. csloat 12:19, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Your accusations are baseless, and border on incivility. You introduced this dubious source as a reference for a highly controversial claim you are insisting on inserting into the MEMRI page, and quickly created page for it - I (and other editors) querstion its notability, both there and here. A self-published freebie leaflet claiming to be the largest paper serving a small minority community in a certain geography is not, in and of itself, notable. For it to be notable, it must be the topic of several independent works. If it is, you should be able to find them. Isarig 12:24, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Your stalking goes way beyond the border of civility. Third party sources are already published on the article page, so your objection is baseless (and your bogus and self-serving claim that a newspaper must be the "topic of several independent works" is simply your opinion). The claim that this paper is self-published is a pathetic joke at best. Read the web page for the paper yourself; there is an editorial staff. It is not a "leaflet" but the biggest paper in California serving the Muslim community. If you believe your complaint, submit this article for AfD and let the chips fall where they may -- perhaps others will agree that it does not merit an encyclopedia entry. But I don't think you even believe your claim; I think you are simply disrupting wikipedia, reviving a stupid feud you have with me from months ago -- a feud I thought we had laid to rest -- because you want to censor legitimate criticism of MEMRI even though that criticism comes from authoritative published voices. csloat 12:53, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I am not stalking you, and if you repeat this uncivil charge agian, you will again find yourself the subject of an ANI report, hopefully with more teeth this time, as your uncivility and disruption of the project must stop. My claim that the article's subject must be the "topic of several independent works" is not my opinion, it is what Misplaced Pages's guidelines on notability states: "A topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." - please familiarize yourself with that guideline. Isarig 13:34, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Hey, guys, cool it (both of you)! Methinks Isarig doth protest too much, as (to take one example) it's obvious that In Focus is no more self-published than, say, the nearby Jewish Journal of Greater Los Angeles (which, incidentally, I think publishes some good stuff). To Isarig I suggest that you could have looked for independent 3rd-party sources yourself, rather than just slapping on a {{notability}} tag. That would demonstrate a genuine search for the truth, and would help avoid accusations of disruptive editing. I have some sympathy for csloat, as the changes he is seeking to make on the MEMRI page are basically correct, but it is still important not to let yourself be provoked (it is for instance sound policy to ask for several, independent, third-party sources), however difficult that may be.

--NSH001 14:12, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

The JJGLA has a public editorial staff, listed here. I can't say the same for SCIF, whose editor is a bit of mystery, let alone its editorial staff. Regardless, your argument is the logical fallacy of Tu Quoque, also known on WP as WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. I don't know if JJGLA is notbale, but its notability or lack thereof has no nearing on the notability of this article. It is not up to me to establish the notability of article whose notability I dispue, but rather on the editors claiming that it is notable - that is what the {{notability}} tag is for. Isarig 14:25, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

You are right that you don't have to establish notability yourself; what I am saying is that it is open to you to be less provocative, and that doing so would make a pleasant change for all concerned. Just occasionally? I'd like to see a more co-operative spirit of editing, and that means looking at other people's arguments, and sometimes even helping them out. Certainly it would help defuse the antagonism you seem to have with csloat. But as I said, you don't have to do so.

--NSH001 16:01, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Methinks sloat doth protest too much. This article was clearly created as a violation of WP:POINT when InFocus was challenged as a source on the MEMRI page. I don't see anything here which establishes its notability in any way. I've posted my concerns regarding this on ANI, and will post this article on afd very soon unless something WP:V establishing it's notability is produced. I looked myself when the issue came up, and I didn't see a thing. <<-armon->> 22:33, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Changed wording to Infocus states that it is "California's largest Muslim newspaper". Cites given don't establish this as a fact -fails WP:V. <<-armon->> 22:48, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense; do the google search - there are multiple sources for the fact that it is california's largest muslim paper. If you are so sure it isn't, can you please name the muslim paper that is larger? As for your other argument, you are simply casting empty aspersions on my good faith, and I ask you to stop it. There were no violations of WP:POINT, and your claim that this paper -- the largest of its kind in California -- is not notable is absurd; my only explanation for such an irrational position is that it stems from an extremist Islamophobia. In which case, I pity you. csloat 10:21, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

edits by Isarig (talk · contribs)

Isarig's most recent edit war surrounds two changes that I proposed; the diff is here. First, Isarig changed this sentence:

"Started in Anaheim, California on February 4 2005, the paper is the largest Muslim newspaper in California."

Isarig changed the sentence to read as follows:

"The paper was started in Anaheim, California on February 4 2005, and claims to be the largest Muslim newspaper in California."

Isarig's version is clearly inferior grammatically as well as in terms of POV. The use of the term "claim" is problematic here (see Misplaced Pages:Words_to_avoid#Words_that_may_advance_a_point_of_view) as it poisons the well by casting doubt on the statement. Yet the paper is not the only source of that claim as is clear from the citations in the text or from a simple google search. More importantly, nobody has cast doubt on that claim from any published source. I certainly can't name a Muslim paper in California that is larger and I doubt Isarig can. Using the word "claim" in this manner constitutes both a POV shift and a form of WP:OR by creating doubt about a fact that there is no published account doubting. Isarig has not offered a single argument defending his change here.

The second change is Isarig's addition of a quotation mined from a blog of an organization of limited notability. The quote follows:

"Americans Against Hate has described it as "CAIR-California's monthly tabloid".

I have several problems with the quotation:

1. It is meaningless. It is a bizarre form of name-calling but it has no substance. What does this organization mean by "tabloid," and why did it describe it that way? The association with CAIR California is already mentioned elsewhere in the article in a less ad hominem manner; this quote adds nothing to the article at all.
2. It is quote mined. The quote is taken out of context from a self-published web page whose sole purpose seems to be to defame various individuals by calling them terrorists; within this list is a cartoonist who happens to draw cartoons for InFocus. Isarig's citation of this source is incredibly deceptive as well: he cites the title of the blog as "Political Cartoonist for CAIR-California's monthly tabloid." But that phrase is found under the bold title "Khalil Bendib" (the name of the cartoonist), and that bold title is part of a long list of individuals being defamed on the page. The actual title of the page appears to be "CAIRWatch: Keeping an Eye on Hate" under the "Profiles" section. Isarig's mendacious title is an extension of his quote-mining; he appears to be trying to deceive the reader into thinking that this is actually an article about InFocus rather than a short entry in a long list of individuals.
3. It comes from an attack site. The sole purpose of the page, as I said before, appears to be a character assassination of various individuals associated with CAIR. That really throws into question its status as a WP:RS.
4. It is not notable. The organization itself may have a sliver of notability (though it appears not to), but that does not mean that its comments on an subject whatsoever are also notable. The opinion of one of the organization's writers about this paper does not seem to be notable at all.

I look forward to hearing what others think about these changes; if others agree with me, they should be reverted forthwith. csloat 20:28, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

As a starting point, please stop labeling these paragraphs as disruptive editing by me. That is uncivil, and I will reprot you if you do it again. If you have issues with my grammer, suggest a better formulation, but do not removed well sourced content. The claim that InFocus is the larget paper is just that, a claim, by them. It is not fact, and the material you cite that supposedly supports that, does not. The SLD quote calls them the largets in Southern California, which is something differnt. The other results of the google search are either repeat teh SLD claim regards "southern californai", or are unreliable sources. If you don;'t knwo what a tabloid is - look it up. The motivations of AAH are irrelevant. It is a well sourced comment, and the fact that you don't like it is, well, irrelvant. Isarig 20:44, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

If you stop making disruptive edits, I stop calling you on it. However, your edits were clearly disruptive, so if you must report me for telling the truth, feel free to, but please stop threatening me. I did suggest a better formulation for your grammar and you simply reverted it, apparently without reading it. Please revert it back. The fact is that the paper is the largest muslim paper in california, as 143 google citations show, as well as other cites. Yes SLD mentions southern california but the claims are not exclusive - it is both the largest in SoCal and the largest in Cal. Do you know of a larger one, or of a citation disputing the fact that it is the largest? If not, please drop this silly matter.

The fact that I disagree with you does not make my editing disruptive. Please cease using that terminology. Consider this your final warning. Isarig 21:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Warn me all you want, but when you are engaged in disruptive editing, you can expect me to call you on it, whether or not you threaten me. Please stop threatening me -- filing bogus reports is simply further disruptive editing. csloat 22:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

On the second issue, you have not responded to the arguments above except to tell me to look up the word "tabloid." I refer you to the four arguments above explaining why this quotation should not be here, and remind you that you must respond to each one convincingly in order to meet your burden of proof. csloat 21:18, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I addressed all 4 of your argumets. Your argument (1) was that calling it CAIR's tabloid is meaningless - I suggested you look up the meaning of the term you don't understand. Your argument (3) was that it comes from a site whose purpose is to attack CAIR. That may or may not be true, but the motivations are irrelevant. Your argument (4) is that it is not from a notabale source, but we have had that discussion on the AAH page, and it appears to be a much more notable organization than InFocus is. With regards to (3) - that is the section heading under which the criticism is found, and is intended to help the reader. I am open to other suggestions. Isarig 21:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

(1) I didn't say I didn't understand the term; I said the name-calling is meaningless. You have not established anything encyclopedic about it. (2) Ah, yes, you forgot #2 again, and yet deceptively claim you addressed all 4 arguments. That one alone is enough reason to exclude the quote. (3) the motivations are not at issue; the notability of this attack site is all that is at issue here; this "criticism" (or more accurately this ad hominem) is not encyclopedic; (4) nope; it appears to be not notable at all -- it has a website and the entire organization seems to be one fringe activist using an organization as a front. We do not need to give space to every silly comment by every website launched by every activist. csloat 22:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

You are welcome to your opinion that calling something a tabloid and associating that tabloid with a much critcized advocacy organization is "meaningless" - but that's your persoanl opinion, which is quite worthless. I addressed (2) {though mistakingly labeld it (3)]. If you have a better suggestion for the label of that reference, I'm opne to hearign it. (3)+(4) It has been established at teh AAH page that the organization is notable . Give it up already. Isarig 22:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

You are welcome to your opinion that my opinion is "worthless," but that opinion is irrelevant. What is relevant is that you cannot articulate any encyclopedic value of this immature name-calling. You did not answer argument #2; if you mislabeled it, you still completely ignored the point that your quote was taken deceptively out of context in a manner that appears intentional and mendacious. AAH's notability is not at issue here (as you should be well aware), what is at issue is the notability of this throwaway sentence that you quote mined out of a page full of defamation. csloat 22:45, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

As far as the encyclopedia is concerned, your opinion (and mine, for that matter) is worthless. So you can complain as much as you want about something being meaningless to you, but that is, simply put, irrelvant and wortheless. What this boils down to is your assertion that the claim is not notable - and I disagree. A notable organization has claimed that the magazine in question, which poses as an independant newspaper is in fact a tabloid produced by and funded by an adcvocacy group. Surely such information is relevnt to the article. Isarig 22:51, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

You're hand-waving and ignoring the arguments. The worthlessness of anyone's opinion is not at issue here; what is at issue is that there is nothing encyclopedic furthered by the name-calling "tabloid" quote. We already have the bogus whine that it is a CAIR-funded publication, so that part of the quote adds nothing. Second, you are ignoring the argument that the quote is out of context and that your quote mining was deceptive and mendacious. Third, you are ignoring the argument that the quote, not the organization, is not notable. csloat 00:16, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

You are cautioned, yet again, to stop commenting about editors and their alleged motivations. One more violation of WP:NPA and we will meet, yet again , at WP/ANI. Your constant vilification of editors in lieu of actual arguments must stop. Isarig 01:12, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

You are cautioned, yet again, to stop threatening me. It is getting tiring, and it is nonsense. You are the one not responding to the arguments here. csloat 03:17, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I've responded to your arguments, and your response was to call my edits "deceptive and mendacious." I am not threatening you - I am explaining the inevitable consequences of your uncivil editing style. Isarig 03:37, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Go back and read argument #2 -- I explained how your edits were in fact deceptive and mendacious. You have not responded to those points. Nor have you, for that matter, answered the other three arguments -- the fact that you were deceptive was only one of the four arguments I was making. csloat 05:12, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I have changed the title to your proffered version - there was nothing decpetive nor mendacious about it to begin with. we are now done with argument 2, and with your opposition to this quote. Now quietly go away, and take your little uncivil comments with you. Isarig 15:18, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

You are the one being uncivil; I have been asking you to stop. Yes you did change the title, which resolved the most blatant aspect of the deception, but argument #2 is still quite accurate -- the quote is fundamentally out of context, quote-mined from an article that is simply not about the InFocus paper at all. Of course, you have also forgotten arguments 1, 3, and 4, and, as I have said, any one of them independently is a reason to reject this quotation from the article. I'll go ahead and make the necessary change. csloat 19:54, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

All your objections have been addressed. You are now just being disruptive. Isarig 20:07, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, none of them have. You have corrected part of objection number 2; that is all. I will repeat them below since you seem to have missed them; these are each independent objections to the quotation from "Americans Against Hate" that Isarig is disrupting this page over:

1. It is meaningless. It is a bizarre form of name-calling but it has no substance. What does this organization mean by "tabloid," and why did it describe it that way? The association with CAIR California is already mentioned elsewhere in the article in a less ad hominem manner; this quote adds nothing to the article at all.
2. It is quote mined. The quote is taken out of context from a self-published web page whose sole purpose seems to be to defame various individuals by calling them terrorists; within this list is a cartoonist who happens to draw cartoons for InFocus. The quote as such appears to deceive the reader into thinking that this is actually an article about InFocus rather than a short entry in a long list of individuals.
3. It comes from an attack site. The sole purpose of the page, as I said before, appears to be a character assassination of various individuals associated with CAIR. That really throws into question its status as a WP:RS.
4. It is not notable. The organization itself may have a sliver of notability (though it appears not to), but that does not mean that its comments on an subject whatsoever are also notable. The opinion of one of the organization's writers about this paper does not seem to be notable at all.

A real discussion of these issues would be welcome. csloat 20:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

We've already had this discussion. Oncre again:

1. It is not meaningless. It add the info that (a) it is a Tabloid and (b) that it is CAIr's tabloid (rather than being merely produced in the same offices as CAIR, or being subsidized by CAIR.
2. The article does not have to be about InFocus. In mentions InFocus while talkign about one of its contributors, and calls it CAIR's tabloid in that context.
3. The purpose and motivations of the source are irrelvant to the fact that they described it as such
4. It is notable enough to have its own WP page, and a simple Google search will show it is far more notable than InFocus itself. Isarig 21:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

A good start, thank you for actually engaging the argument (though please leave the quote off of the page until these issues are resolved, thanks). My responses. I'm going to go ahead and sign each one in case you want to respond inline.

(1) You claim it adds two things - (a) is that it's a tabloid. This is not meaningful in this context -- it is simply being used as a slur rather than actually saying anything about the format. (In fact, it is incorrect about the format, which appears to be a broadsheet). There is nothing useful or encyclopedic about one extremist's opinion about a newspaper format. (b) we already have the CAIR "connection" suggested on the page. There is nothing new added by the claim that it is "CAIR's tabloid." csloat 21:37, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

(2) You claim the quote is in context but you are missing the point. It is quote mined. You cherry picked a throwaway phrase from an article about something else in order to cast vague aspersions on the paper. Again, this is not encyclopedic criticism, and it is deceptive as it leads the reader to believe that this extremist has written directly about InFocus. csloat 21:37, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

(3) You mention the source's motivations, but that's not relevant. What is relevant is that this is not notable - it is basically from an attack blog, not a WP:RS, and as such cannot be used for incendiary claims. This is just ad hominem from an extremist with a website.csloat 21:37, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

(4) You claim that it is notable enough to have a wikipedia page - that does not make it a reliable source. Your claim that it wins a google fight against InFocus is cute but total nonsense as far as we're concerned here. It doesn't matter which phrase gets more google hits; we aren't comparing the two. In fact, if you re-read #4 above you will see that I am not arguing with your claim that AAH is notable as an organization. What I am arguing is that not every sentence published on AAH's website is notable. Your claim that because AAH is notable, everything they say must be notable too is a logical fallacy. csloat 21:37, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

(1)There's a reason I linked Tabloid - it is that so that you could familiarize yourself with the meaning of the term. Please do so, and you wil lsee that Tabloid may refer not to the format, but to the content, frequency and price.. The previos quotes allude to the paper being susbsizdized by CAIR, this one makes the connection more explict.

(2)There' no requirement that an an article be focused on the subject in order to quote from it when it addresses other subjects. If readers are wondering about the article - they click on the refernce and see what it is about.

(3) You've basiclly folded thsi into 4, claimign non-notability, so see below.

(4)You acknowledge that AAH is notable, and it is notable for being a critic of CAIR, thus it's commentary on CAIR-related subjects, such as CAIR's tabloid, are notable. Isarig 21:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

(1)Please see broadsheet and then see the rest of my comment - it's not encyclopedic to note that a lone extremist used the wrong (or even right) word to describe the paper's format, frequency, or price. As for CAIR, what makes this "more explicit"? It is implicit at best. The funding quote makes it explicit.

(2)Again, you're not responding to the point, which I urge you to re-read. The point is the quote is mined out of context from an article that has nothing to do with this.

(3)The ad hominem nature of this quote is separate from its complete lack of notability.

(4)You're saying that everything this lone extremist has to say about CAIR is notable? I don't think so. This is not "commentary"; it is a one line ad hominem, and it is not notable just because you were able to manufacture a thin veneer of notability for this guy's little defamation website. Again please read WP:RS and stop making bogus arguments here. Thanks, and have a good day. csloat 23:39, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

(1) It is encyclopedic to note that a critic has described it as a tabloid, even if you think the critic is wrong

(2)I've responded to the point. Re-read my response

(3)You wrote above, WRT to (3) "What is relevant is that this is not notable " - so 3 and 4 are one and the same

(4)yes. that's what I'm saying. You disagree, but that doesn't make your POV the correct one. Isarig 23:44, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

(1)No it is not. We would not include on the New York Times page the fact that Rush Limbaugh has called it a "leftist rag." Not everything everyone says is notable and encyclopedic; please see WP:NOT.

(2)Perhaps you will have better luck if you re-read my objection to your response more slowly. Get back to me when you have done so; in the meantime I will take this as a concession on point #2.

(3)The ad hominem issue is separate from its notability. We do not include empty ad hominems on critiques of newspapers.

(4)Actually it's not my POV, it is clearly laid out in WP:RS.

It looks like we're done here; the quote stays out. Thanks for your input. csloat 23:49, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

(1)yes it is, and yes, we might.

(2)I have read your objection and responded to it.

(3)You were the one who said th eobjection is based on lack of notability. reread what you wrote.

(:4)WP:RS says nothign of the kind.

It looks like we're done here; the quote is in. Thanks for your input. Isarig 23:52, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

(1) no, it's not. This much is clear, and you are just making empty assertions now.

(2) No you haven't actually responded to it; again, try more slowly next time.

(3) I also said it was an ad hominem. You still have ignored this point. You're just playing games with the fact that I also said notability. Please try to approach this argument in good faith rather than engaging in empty sophistry.

(4) WP:RS is pretty clear on the matter; a self-published web page with no editorial oversight is simply not a WP:RS.

The quote goes. csloat 23:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

(1) Yes, it is. This much is clear, and you are just making empty assertions now.

(2) I have responded to it, by both addressing the substantial issue in the article, and by addressing your "not the topic" objection. Please re-read.

(3) So you also said it was an ad hominem. Whoop tee do. You said notability wa sthe main issue. Your welcome to your opinion about the ad hominem, but we disagree.

(4) WP:RS is pretty clear on the matter; a notable organization making a notbale criticism is ok to use

The quote stays. Isarig 00:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

(1) this is getting silly. it is not encyclopedic, and you don't have an argument as to why it is. If you do, you have failed to articulate it, despite the proliferation of comments here.

(2) you did not address the objection at all that this was quote mined totally out of context from a web page about something else.

(3) if we disagree, it might be about time to explain what you think our disagreement is so we can resolve it. "whoop te dos" and other uncivil comments do not cut it here - if you can't explain why you think you're right, we must assume you're wrong.

(4) This is not a reliable source, it is a self-published web page. And this specific comment is not notable -- again, not everything said by every idiot with a wikipedia page is "notable." csloat 00:35, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

(1) this is getting silly. it is encyclopedic, and I've explained why it is.

(2) I did

(3) I've explained why I am right - starying with the fact that you have already conceded (3) is the same as (4)

(4) it is. Isarig 00:46, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, Isarig, you've clearly shown you are not taking this seriously. I'll slap a NPOV tag to cover both the UNDUE and POV and RS issues your addition creates as well as the inaccuracies created by Armon's edit. Then I'll wait for people to participate in the discussion who actually take it seriously; I'm done interacting with you here. csloat 00:55, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

It's clearly a tabloid. It's clearly as notable as Americans Against Hate so if these articles do end up being kept, I don't see a case for removing commentary from them. As for quote mining, sloat, if you're going to accuse Isarig of it, don't do it yourself with the cites you used for "largest Muslim newspaper in California" when they just make a passing repetition of InFocus' masthead claim. Anyway, I consider this debate to be sterile until it can pass WP:N. <<-armon->> 23:11, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

It's clearly a broadsheet; please read the entries and look at the newspaper. "largest muslim paper in california" is not just Infocus's claim as you know, and it is hardly "mined." csloat 23:39, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Notability

I'm wondering if this page meets Misplaced Pages notability guidelines as outlined in WP:Notability. By that guideline, we should have: "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". I'm not seeing evidence that we have this here. Also, please see WP:CORP, likely relevant for this publication. Bigglove 03:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

As the largest Muslim paper in California it certainly meets WP:N. We've got articles from the LATimes, St Louis Post Dispatch, and City News Service discussing this paper, as well as some comments from the ADL. It's certainly at least as notable as this paper, about which nobody appears to have raised notability concerns. csloat 00:56, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. I will put the same message on that paper's page as I did on this one. Bigglove 02:08, 9 August 2007 (UTC) I do note that that is an independent paper, so I didn't put the part about WP:CORP there. Bigglove 02:10, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Where is the LAtimes article that discusses InFocus? what exactly does CNS say about InFocus? Isarig 01:25, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to see the LATimes article myself; it is cited by the ADL but I do not see the full cite information. The full CNS citation is in the article so you can easily find that. I'm not going to engage further questioning or argument with you for reasons I spelled out above. csloat 01:58, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

So, contrary to your claim above, we do not have an "article from the LATimes". Any particular reason why you made that claim, obviously knowing it is false?

The only quote attributed to CNS is 'Muslim Newspaper". would you care to elaborate on the context in which CNS wrote "Muslim Newspaper"? Isarig 02:05, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

(reoutdenting) By the notability guideline at WP:Notability, we need ALL of the following:

1. SIGNIFICANT COVERAGE
2. in RELIABLE sources
3. INDEPENDENT of the Subject

WP:CORP outlines the following regarding the sources

1. NOT Press releases for the organization
2. NOT other works where the organization talks about itself — whether published by the organization or re-printed by other people
3. NOT merely trivial coverage

Of the two RS, we have:

• 1. Muslim Newspaper," City News Service (4 February 2005), we need to know if this source specifically meets the above criteria, and whether the coverage is more than especially repeating a press release. Given that article in City News SErvice has the same pub date as the inception of the paper, I'm concerned that it is essentially a press release.
• 2. From the article: "Tim Townsend, 'St. Louis Post-Dispatch (4 December 2005) p. A1, who calls InFocus "Southern California's largest Muslim newspaper." What we actually have in the article is, "For a lot of Americans, Islam is the unknown, and often it is the unknown that is feared," said Saaqib Rangoonwalla, an editorial board member of InFocus, Southern California's largest Muslim newspaper." This is not SIGNIFICANT coverage of the newspaper. The topic of the article is not INFOCUS. The paper gets a brief mention when the editorial board is quoted and identified. It is unclear if this is self referential by the organization. Bigglove 02:47, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

1. Political Cartoonist for CAIR-California's monthly tabloid, In Focus"