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Myanmar A‑class Top‑importance

Myanmar is within the scope of WikiProject Myanmar, a project to improve all Myanmar related articles on Misplaced Pages. The WikiProject is also a part of the Counteracting systemic bias group on Misplaced Pages aiming to provide a wider and more detailed coverage on countries and areas of the encyclopedia which are notably less developed than the rest. If you would like to help improve this and other Myanmar-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.MyanmarWikipedia:WikiProject MyanmarTemplate:WikiProject MyanmarMyanmar A This article has been rated as A-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. To-do list: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Article requests : offices, ministries and politicians of current cabinet, requested articles on Burmese subjects and articles on smaller towns and villages Expand : Top-importance and High-importance articles Photo : add photos of incumbent politicians Stubs : Category:Myanmar stubs Update : offices, ministries and politicians of current cabinet after 2015 election Other : If you know Burmese, go on the Myanmar Misplaced Pages and make sure each article on the English Misplaced Pages has one in Burmese also

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This article is within the scope of WikiProject Southeast Asia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Southeast Asia-related subjects on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Southeast AsiaWikipedia:WikiProject Southeast AsiaTemplate:WikiProject Southeast AsiaSoutheast Asia B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

This article has been mentioned by a media organization: Maria Kruczkowska (2006-01-14). "Birma. Od Rangunu po Chaungtha". Gazeta Wyborcza. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

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Archives

March 2003 – August 2007 September 2007 October 2007: RM "Burma" October 2007

External links

The following need to be deleted:

• http://www.myanma.net
• http://www.myanmar.org.uk/shwe/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.72.96.2 (talk) 11:50, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

You're probably right, but why? If you're sure about your decision, just do it (Misplaced Pages:Be bold) and provide a short reason in the edit summary. --Espoo 09:28, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

The first has already been deleted. The second is a duplicate (http://www.myanmar.org.uk/ and http://www.myanmar.org.uk/shwe/). I can't "Be bold" as the article is locked; the message at the top of the article says "If you cannot edit this article and you wish to make a change, you can discuss changes on the talk page, request unprotection, log in, or create an account." - hence this request. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.189.134.3 (talk) 16:38, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

'Myanmar' or Burma

Well then, would anyone now object if in 24 hours time, I revert the page back to Myanmar? Evlekis 10:56, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes (see the section above #October requested move). After a WP:RM, unless there is a very good reason, page names should not be reverted for at least six months, and then the WP:RM procedure should be used to place a new request. --Philip Baird Shearer 14:09, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

As I wrote above in #October requested move: It is a convention that if a page has been moved via a WP:RM then a new WP:RM to move it back should not be made for six months. Here are two examples from the archives which come to mind but I can find more if someone asks. The reason for this is that if the debate has been thorough then little more can be said and there is a general Misplaced Pages convention that one does not make multiple requests just to get the result one desires because most editors have more constructive things to do with the time they spend editing Misplaced Pages. However this convention is not set in stone and there may be cases were due to circumstances it is necessary to have a requested move in under six months but I have not read any reasons in this section which seem to me reasonable reasons for another WP:RM. For anyone who puts in such a request in under six months should consider that it may well be counter productive for them because some editors will express the opinion that a move back should not take place just because the WP:RM is too soon. --Philip Baird Shearer 08:52, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:IAR — A mistake was made here and that will draw in a far larger sample of opinions. A review should be held much sooner than six months. See my post below from the other day. --Jack Merridew 14:38, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

The requested move was very widely advertised on WP:RM, Two separate RfCs (politics and geography) and on the Village Pump. It is difficult to see how a far larger sample of opinions could be been engendered for a requested move. --Philip Baird Shearer 14:56, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't doubt any of it. Has the NYT commented on this move (yet)? I believe that the move itself will draw much attention to the move over time and that it inevitably will be moved back; WP:SOAPBOX etc. I'll keep an eye out for the move back and any discussions about it. --Jack Merridew 14:39, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

The following should put English/Non-english aspect of name to an end:
Modern Language Association (MLA): "myanmar." The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2004. 11 Oct. 2007. <Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/myanmar>.
Modern Language Association (MLA): "myanmar." Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Random House, Inc. 11 Oct. 2007. <Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/myanmar>.
Modern Language Association (MLA): "myanmar." WordNet® 3.0. Princeton University. 11 Oct. 2007. <Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/myanmar>.
The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third EditionPublished by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved., © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
All those English language dictionaries prove that Myanmar is an English word. Rename back to Myanmar!--Slidersv 07:57, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

A significant point is being missed here. True, endonyms and exonyms are often at variants: Germany is a fine example of a country and language with more names than it has people. Myanmar's situation is more than a cross-linguistic variation. Its constitutional name, Myanmar, was renamed in 1989 by the recognised (though unpopular) administration. Now Britain, which until 50 years earlier had ruled Burma, chose not to recognise the constitutional name. Indeed, nobody can dictate their name on other national or linguistic communities; and the USA in turn has followed suit and also rejected Myanmar. Never the less, every other country in the world recognised Myanmar, from Israel to Chile, from Fiji to Mali and from South Korea to Iceland. It is also recognised as Myanmar by world organisations such as NATO, the EU, the African Union, EFTA, OPEC, APEC, NAFTA, CAFTA, FIFA, UEFA, The Olympic authorities, even the UN. Now, sure, this is not Greek encyclopaedia, exclusive to the Greek language community which are largely based in Greece and Cyprus: however, this is English language encyclopaedia, and English is not solely fixed to the UK and the USA, it is the language of other countries too; more importantly, organisations to which English is an official language. Here on Misplaced Pages, there is no rule to say that you spell words by their American or English ways (no need to replace centre with center and vice versa), likewise there is no need to replace such terms as fall with autumn. The Englishman edits a page, the American adds something to the same page, the result: something comprehensible to anyone who has learnt any form of English. If the policy of accepting all forms on the same page continue, we need to look at Myanmar/Burma on the bigger picture, and not just thorugh a narrow Ango-American lense. Otherwise, this will end up a joke, like Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian/Serbo-Croat Misplaced Pages, musn't forget Montenegrin, give that a short while, it too will be inaugurated. You'll need to have Canadian, New Zealand and Australian seperate Wikipedias (among others) for little more than language variation. On the subject of language variation, there is one more thing: whilst the BBC sticks firmly with the British government view, and calls the country Burma, and its former capital Rangoon (as opposed to Yangon) - Al-Jazeera England calls the same country Myanmar - but is transmits in English: any British readers of this message can select Channel 514 on their Sky Dish to find this channel, you'll even see familiar presenters whom you'd recognise from BBC, ITN and others. Then there is CNN, now this is based in the States, and it too refers to Myanmar and prints it on their report-maps. No English speaking news network will call Finland Suomi, Albania Shqiperia or Sweden Sverige, that simply isn't English! Myanmar is - CNN would not attempt to use it othwerwise. It may be interesting to note that although the land be called Myanmar, its language name remains the same which translates to Burmese when spoken in English. Not even Than Shwe opposes this. So it is not a case of people simply being pedantic, France-24 (in English) speaks of Myanmar and its Burmese language. To this end, I see no reason for the page title to be Burma. Evlekis 19:51, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

This is quite inconsistent. Ivory coast was renamed to "Côte d'Ivoire" and Wiki is referring to it as Côte d'Ivoire. There was a vote, and foreign name won. There is no "Côte d'Ivoire" in English language, yet there it is. 194.228.18.137 08:44, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

There was no vote. There was a discussion, and Côte d'Ivoire was found to be consistent with our naming conventions, despite its lack of appeal to many editors. -GTBacchus 03:21, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

The international name change is about as sensible as the rest of the world being forced to call Germany 'Deutschland' or Hungary 'Magyarorszag'. Yes, rename it Burma. That's what we the British called it and that's good enough.

And what makes a British-centric point of view good for the encyclopedia? Actually, a neutral point of view is much better. mike4ty4 03:41, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you still call the United States your "colonies"? When a country establishes itself as a soverign nation they have the right to change their name, and we should all recognize that. There is a difference between Germany and 'Deutschland' and Burman and 'Myanmar' Germany is the English translation of 'Deutschland'. 'Myanmar' is an entirely new name, chosen by it's government and people. Sure it's not as easy to pronounce, but there ya have it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.245.193.10 (talk) 10:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, a country can rename itself, in its own language. But it cannot dictate the word for its country in other languages. The previous commentator is right: "Germany" is the English rendering of "Deutschland." By the same token, however, "Burma" is the English word for "Myanma" (which is not a new name in Burmese) or "Bama." Thus "Burma" is as legitimate as "Germany" as an English word. There is no reason to dispense with it.--LapisQuem 14:21, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Germany is not demanding we call it Deutschland. The name "Burma" has a highly charged history vis a vis the British history in the area. The United Nations recognizes Myanmar, so I don't see how the country is "dictating" anything. While there is no such thing as a completely neutral term, using "Burma" in opposition to the UN and the government's wishes is clearly a political move. Misplaced Pages should stay out of this and use the most simple method- the name the country wishes to be called. Again, this is not Germany and there is clearly a controversy. 218.152.32.149 05:43, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I xtrongly suggest we all call this country Burma as it shows we do not recognise the barbaric and inhumane idiots who run Burma. The UN should never have recognised Myanmar!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.209.165 (talk) 06:41, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, whether or not you object to the current Burmese/Myanmarese(?) government is not relevant to how an encyclopedic article should be written, or in this case, named. Misplaced Pages's neutrality policies require that Misplaced Pages not take a stand on an issue. Changing the name of the article due to some political viewpoint one holds is not neutral, as then one is pushing their opinion in the encyclopedia. The neutrality policies prohibit such opinion-pushing. mike4ty4 03:40, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I think using Myanmar is much more proper.

1. It is the official name of the country.

2. The Burmese people are quite comfortable with it. So, even if our so-called "government" is evil and brutal, we still have our right to call our country what we want - if we are denied that right, then, what rights are we Burmese supposed to get by embracing democracy?

3. We are a sovereign nation - we owe no alligence to any foreign state or crown anymore. So, we have our own right to give the country we live in whatever we want. We have the right to be referred by the name we want.

4. It is accepted by the United Nations, the only association which includes almost all the countries of the world and is the only global body with political weight.

5. Aung San Suu Kyi is not God - true, she is a heroine of the Burmese people, but, just because she says that does not mean we have to abide by it. A lot of the people in the country accept Myanmar, and, well, isnt it self-defeating to ignore the voice of the people?

6. Most Burmese use the term "Burma" because many foreigners, especially the British, are ignorant and will not know where on Earth we come from if we said Myanmar.

7. Myanmar represents the 14 states and divisions - Burma represents the 7 divisions where the Burmans dominate only. As an ethnic minority from Myanmar, I actually feel insulted to be termed 'Citizen of Burma'. We, as a union, should politically correctly be refered as Myanmar - else, those who call us Burma are actually ignoring the ethnic minorities, whose sufferings these people are supposed to be concerned for.

8. Many have drawn comparisons to Finland (Suomi), Germany (Deutscheland), Hungary (Magyarország) and Japan (Nippon). Those are different cases. They are Romanized names of their respective languages. They did not push for the UN to recognize them, nor did they say that they changed their official name from X to Y. Their official names are Republic of Finland, Federal Republic of Germany, Republic of Hungary and Japan / Empire of Japan, not Republic of Suomi, etc. Our official name, in English, as defined by the government, is the Union of Myanmar. Our government pushed for it, got it, so, we should use it. Those four does not request other nations to do so, so, we don't call them. Its simple.

We have our right to be called what we want, and, I have already asked many liberal and politically unalligned Burmese - in large cities and abroad - we prefer Myanmar. The problem is, the only people doing the talking abroad are members of the opposition. Moderate and neutral people are attacked and not given room for sharing their opinion ( I feel that I will be getting the same treatment for expressing my opinions (my freedom of speech and thought, which I am supposed to get with democracy).

Just because comedians call George Bush Jr, Douchebag does it mean that he has to be called Douchebag in all publications? When he stands at the UN podium, is he introduced as Douchebag? Or, because the Jihadist call Americans Infidels, does the Americans call themselves Infidels? Do these "authors" of the article, when they have to go through Immigration, want to be called their proper name, or things like (...words which your vocabulary permits...). Bullying us to accept your term, isn't really what I would see as democracy and freedom. True, we are using the English language, but, that does not mean that because some snobs who rule a tiny corner of Europe have the right to make other people call something what they want.

I must say that, the article has deformed a lot over the recent month. I agree that the regime is evil, brutal and is illegitimate, but, the action in defacing this article is horrific. You are not helping my people a single bit by writing those portions or deleting others. True, the suffering and inhumanity must be made known, but the manner in which it has been made on this article is deplorable. All other opinion have been neglected, and only one side of the picture is presented. Is this what you call democracy? I thought only dictatorships like SPDC did that, not free-press democracy. Misplaced Pages's policy of neutrality has been violated with callousness, and what is supposed to be a neutral wiki has become a slaughtering ground for Myanmar. If you wish so much to express your ideas, I do not mind, in fact, I would prefer you all to set up another wiki. This is wikipedia, not Amerikipedia or Britipedia. True, we all want democracy and development, but, by ignoring the Burmese people or their wishes, or labelling us or targetting us, you all will never succeed. We lost democracy in the first place due to xenophobia. Do not make us develope that mindset again.

Note I am not inside the country (with the internet servered by the idiotic government, many will accuse me of being a government cronie with privileged access to the internet, if I don't clarify things) - I am not writing for any political institution or government. I have my right as a citizen of Myanmar to say what I want about my country. Attacking me, I would say, is rather paradoxical for the proponents of democracy in my country. My user name includes Burma because of the book I read, "U Thant of Burma" - it does not reflect my standing. User:Uthantofburma 11:45, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I just saw the Signpost article on this and have read some — but not all — of this talk. Like the junta or not (and I don't), the name of the country is Myanmar and this move smacks of a political statement. While that may not have been the intent of the move and of those advocating it, it is inherent in the action — especially given the timing of it re recent events — and such an appearance should have been avoided. --Jack Merridew 08:40, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The Signpost article took me to this interesting renaming debate. It is really unfair to rename a country from the "English point of view". Moreover this renaming is simply against the "neutral point of view" of Misplaced Pages and it can be seen only as politics. The editors should be sensible enough to look at United Nations documents(Not United State's or United Kingdom's). The UN uses Myanmar.Manjithkaini 14:23, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Since the name Myanmar has got U.N recognition Burma can be replaced with Myanmar, the recognized name. Chanakyathegreat 13:43, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm normally the first to call for adopting official uses (I'm 100% in favour of Côte d'Ivoire, and would love to see East Timor finally moved to Timor-Leste), but in this case, there's a difference: a large number of organisations, including states, does not recognise the name change. —Nightstallion 16:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

It should also be noted that the democratically-elected government of Burma has never recognized the name change. This alone makes the situation vastly different from the Timor-Leste or Ivory Coast cases. It's not simply a "British/US" point of view, parties within the country have never recognized the name change either. Junta POV =/= Burmese POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Borisblue (talk • contribs) 14:20, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

It should also be noted that the non-democratic military government of Myanmar does not recognize the democratically-elected government of Burma. Out of the two, the former is the one we have listed in the Government template at the side of the article. Should we list this democratically-elected government instead, as the one that rules the country? -BaronGrackle 15:30, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Basing reasoning on the legitimacy or not of the regime is entering into WP:IDONTLIKEIT territory and also inconsistent. To take one example, are the articles on the "country" covering what is now Zimbabwe between 1964 & 1979 entitled "Southern Rhodesia" - the formal legal name of the colony under the law of its owner - or "Rhodesia" - a name change made by the colonial government which subsequently made an internationally unrecognised Unilateral Declaration of Independence? Because Ian Smith's regime was not exactly "legitimate" in some people's eyes?

Or do we accept that Misplaced Pages is not the place for POV and soapboxing and consider in terms of the names actually used, not what we personally think of those making the name changes? Timrollpickering 19:32, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm thinking that since ISO 3166-1 uses MM and MMR as the alpha-2 and alpha-3 codes for this country, this article should be under the name "Myanmar". --  Denelson83  03:05, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

By that logic the United Kingdom should be renamed as its letters are GB and GBR --Philip Baird Shearer 16:07, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Not the same thing. The UK is the short form for United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the code is simply taken from one section of the long name, whilst the short form comes from another part. Myanmar and Burma do not form parts of a single text, nor are they variations of a single name, and they are not cross-linguistic calques either. Without expressing my preference for Myanmar, I'm saying that the article's title can be one or the other. Evlekis 12:26, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

So what should they use in Northern Ireland then as their part of the name is not included? --Philip Baird Shearer 13:25, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Not my problem. Obviously in the world of sport, you have 3-letter codes, Northern Ireland can be NIR whilst England is ENG, then there is WAL, SCO etc. But as for international codes, it is down to Northern Ireland's population to kick up a stink over that issue. Because the national demonym is British, maybe it doesn't bother them, not atleast those who believe in the Kingdom; those who don't will not be any happier with anything. If they are happy to identify as British at a national level, leaving Irish as a regional affinity, GB and GBR should be fine. Evlekis 16:28, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Naming suggestion

It appears I made a mistake in assuming only the UK and the USA to recognise Burma with everyone else calling it Myanmar. It appears that Ireland, Canada, Australia and New Zealand (not sure about South Africa) do all recognise Burma, and this accounts for a larger section of the English speaking world: atleast those who speak it as a first language if not second/official. But because of the fact that Myanmar has overwhemlingly been proved as accepted in the English language as well as in English speaking organisations, here is what I suggest we do with the title: is there a way in which we can include both Myanmar and Burma in it such as Myanmar/Burma or Myanmar (Burma) or in reverse. We may also include both on the opening text in block print. The map of the world which I have in my study is in English, and prints Myanmar (Burma). If anyone opposes this for any reason, would the same person suggest switching Yangon to Rangoon with all other towns following suit for the same reason? Evlekis 12:23, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

"Myanmar/Burma" (or the other way round) is very bad technically - the / would create a subfield namespace. "Myanmar-Burma" would sound like a compound compromise actually in use (e.g. Zimbabwe-Rhodesia which wasn't created by the most democratically legitimate regime going) and creating new name forms is truly OR. "Myanmar (Burma)" on Misplaced Pages would imply that there's more than one Myanmar and this one is best disambiguated as Burma. And no-one would be able to agree on which way round to put the names. Timrollpickering 19:25, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, although I favour Myanmar, I would settle to have Burma first for alphabetical purposes. The Zimbabwe issue is totally different. The administration there is internationally recognised even if unpopular among sections of the Zimbabwean population and other specific international heads of government. The UK recognises Zimbabwe, I don't know of any organisation which refers to Rhodesia though I can imagine that there may be some people in some places; obviously Ian Smith and former colleagues cannot be expected to recognise Zimbabwe from a personal perspective, his his present-day host country South Africa does accept Zimbabwe, and is an ally too. Back to Myanmar: or going away from it slightly, I'd like to turn your attention to one other naming dispute - The Republic of Macedonia is the constitutional name for a landlocked country in south-eastern Europe. As you may by now see, that is how its title appears in Misplaced Pages. Disputes with Greece have led to the country being recongised elsewhere as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Although the number of countries to recognise the constitutional name are rising, the fraction was still less than a third of world countries the last time I checked. The USA is one of those countries to accept the ROM, but the other English speaking countries do not; perhaps more importantly, the UN recognised FYROM as do other world organisations. My point is that Myanmar is far more acceptable than Republic of Macedonia, so is one country allowed to have its constitutional name displayed here when it is not recognised by the UN whilst another fully recognised name is being suppressed? Evlekis 08:49, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid you're wrong on Macedonia -- the last time I checked a few days ago, it was more than 100 states which recognised it as ROM, which makes that an absolute majority. —Nightstallion 09:32, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

hey I'm not wrong! I said the "last time I chekced!!", that may be more than a year ago now - and even then, the info may have been out of date. I did use the word "increasing" and I know this to be the case. Soon Greece and Cyrpus will be standing alone at this rate - don't expect them to accept ROM though. The number of countries recognising Myanmar is still greater than those who recognise ROM. This argument is in my favour, not those who support Burma. Myanmar is also recognised by organisations which do not recognise ROM...so again I ask, where is the sense in keeping this title as its unconstitutional name? Evlekis 09:59, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

The Zimbabwe example is not current but historic - between 1964 and 1980 the legal status of the names "Rhodesia" (1964-1979) and "Zimbabwe-Rhodesia" (1979-1980) was dubious because a) the colonial government declared a change from "Southern Rhodesia" in 1964 but this change was not made by the UK; b) the 1965 UDI was never internationally recognised so there's a case that legally the correct name in that period was still "Southern Rhodesia" and c) the 1979 changes were part of an internal settlement not accepted by all groups in the place (due to the limitations on the franchise it's hard to make arbitary jugements about the level of support). (Today there are some who still call themselves "Rhodesians" but this is entirely an individual declaration of historic pride/dislike of Mugabe, not a claim that the country is still "Rhodesia".) I bring this example up because Myanmar is far from alone in being a country with the "legitimacy" of the name change open to contention.

As for Macedonia it's now 118 or 61% of the UN, including some English speaking countries such as the UK and Canada though Australia and India use fYRoM - Macedonia naming dispute#The current situation. And "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" is strictly speaking not a name in the eyes of the UN but an explicitly designated provisional description pending a settlement of the naming dispute. Timrollpickering 11:13, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I wish to get back to this naming issue before this goes off-topic any further (Northern Ireland & GBR), what were the reasons if one may list them that this page was moved from Myanmar to Burma, and more importantly, why now all of a sudden? If it were originally Burma, I apologise, I started reading it a short while ago. Evlekis 16:40, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

The original article was created under the page name Burma on at 14:04, 17 October 2001 eleven days later another article was created under Myanmar at 05:59, 28 October 2001 both pages existed until user:Conversion script made the Burma page a redirect at 15:43, 25 February 2002 -- This particular edit was deleted from the history when the recent page move to Burma was made (along with 27 other edits) the first of which I recovered to show you the content of the first page created for this country was Burma, (the rest of the edits would just confuse the edit history and provide no additional information). --Philip Baird Shearer 10:09, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I wonder whether we should be using the names as recognised by the United Nations, at least in the English form, since I feel they are in many ways the central point at deciding what is officially recognised. There may be other names or consideration of identy, used by different languages and countries, but on an international basis, I would tend to refer to the United Nations. For a list consult UN Geographic Names. At the same time it may be worth noting in the entry the context for using one or another. BTW the BBC seems just as confused since they use Burma in news articles and yet list it as Myanmar in their weather site (note mixing of Rangoon and Mynamar, instead of simply Yangon and Myanmar) --AJ Mas 15:49, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

It seems that Misplaced Pages now uses "Burma" for the country, but "Yangon" for the city. Isn't this inconsistent? Both names were changed by the junta. If you recognise the junta's name changes, you'd use "Myanmar" for the country and "Yangon for the city. If you don't recognise the junta's name changes, you'd use "Burma" for the country and "Rangoon" for the city, but I'm not sure when you'd use a mixture of junta and non-junta names ("Burma" and "Yangon"). (Stefan2 10:04, 22 October 2007 (UTC))

It's completely irrelevant whether Misplaced Pages's choices agree with the junta's or the UN's or whether some WP choices are the official ones and others aren't. The only thing that counts is which forms are used most in English in reputable sources. Rangoon should be Yangon on the basis of the evidence provided, but it will take a while before a new move request can be made and a better informed move decision can be made.

Most of the above new discussion seems to be unaware of what was discussed in great detail before and, more importantly, unaware of the basic principles of WP's naming convention. Please take some time to read at least part of WP:COMMONNAME before wasting your own time and that of others. --Espoo 20:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

As was said above, UK, USA, Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa name it as Burma. I think all this countries gather the majority of people whose native language is English, so I think it is fair enough. --Tonyjeff 01:55, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Yangon/Rangoon

Why is the topic called "Burma" and the capital is "Yangon"? It's like saying "Harare, Rhodesia" It should be either Yangon, Myanmar or Rangoon, Burma. Reading WP:COMMONNAME], I think Rangoon would be "searched for" more than Yangon. Speedboy Salesman 12:38, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

For the simple reasons that that is how the two recent move discussions ended. There was a Requested move on this at the same time Myanmar was moved to Burma and the outcome was no consensus, particularly as this is not as clear cut as some make it out to be - media usage is quite split for a start, so it's hard to determine that one term is overwhelmingly used more than the other. Timrollpickering 15:02, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Well can somebody make a requested move from Yangon to Rangoon? I don't know how to do it. Speedboy Salesman 18:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:How to rename (move) a page but it's been only a month since the last move discussion and another is going to feel like "let's keep going until we get the desired outcome". Timrollpickering 00:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

VOTE: Burma or Myanmar

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Speedy close. This name issue was extensively discussed just one month ago and the result was move to the current name. Please allow more time before restarting it. Furthermore, this proposal is out of procedure, as it should have been listed at WP:RM so that everybody may have the chance to know about it and participate. Húsönd 03:40, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Let's do a proper vote, before being off topics, shall we?

Should the article be moved from BURMA to MYANMAR?

• See Treaty of Yandabo and Panglong Agreement in Myanmar language, old Myanmar people use Myanmar. They did not use burma. So I beleived Myanmar is correct. And in old chinese history they call Myan tin. So you can think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ekyaw (talk • contribs) 14:03, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
• Support - Myanmar is the official name approved by the current government of the country, United Nations, most part of the world except UK, US, Australia, NZ, and a few more. English Misplaced Pages is not exclusive to english speaking nations , but rather collaboration of all regardless of where you are.--Zack2007 02:36, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose Speedboy Salesman 09:48, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
• Support - So as not to play into the hands of Ango-American biggots. The junta may be widely unpopular, but recognised they are. If the Upper Volta is Burkina Faso; Persia accepted as Iran, this should be no exception. Evlekis 11:48, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

  Please refrain from referring to others as "bigots"; thank you. As to questions of naming, they simply come down to common use. "Burkina Faso" is more common in English-language sources than "Upper Volta"; end of story. Which is more common in English, "Burma" or "Myanmar"? I don't know the answer, but that is the only question we have any business talking about here. -GTBacchus 03:29, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

• Support I have no fondness for the junta, nor for anyone who would accuse others of bigotry, but if it's the official name, that's what it is. LordAmeth 14:54, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

  ...and where in our policies or guidelines is it written that we prefer "official names" over common names? -GTBacchus 03:29, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

• Support It is the UN name.--   Avg    15:37, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

  ...and where in our policies or guidelines is it written that we use "UN names"? -GTBacchus 03:29, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose as per WP:NAME and WP:COMMONNAME the decision criteria is "common usage amongst English speakers" and not what is "official" - in fact the standard explicitly prescribes taking the common over the official. Also as per the extensive debate preceding this one. István 17:05, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
• Support Use of Myanmar is not going to decrease, while "Burma" already is. -BaronGrackle 18:55, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
• Support. I'm from the U.S., but on those rare occasions when I refer to the country I've been using "Myanmar" for years. I looked in WP:Naming_conventions#Specific_countries and Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (country-specific topics), and did not find any useful guidance on this point there. I think that "Burma" as a commonly-used name is well on the way to following "Bombay" (Mumbai, India), "Canton" (Guangzhou, China), "Ceylon" (Sri Lanka), "Cap Saint Jacques" (Vung Tao, Vietnam), "Tourane" (Da Nang, Vietnam) and others towards being mentioned chiefly in footnotes. Also, István, could you point out where in WP:NAME and WP:COMMONNAME the decision criteria is specified as "common usage amongst English speakers" and not what is "official"? I couldn't find that specified in those articles. I did find that WP:UE says, "If you are talking about a person, country, town, film, book, or video game, use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article, as you would find it in other encyclopedias and reference works". If we are try to determine whether "Burma" or "Myanmar" is more commonly used by English speakers, I think we should look beyond Zack2007's list of "UK, US, Australia, NZ, and a few more" as English-speaking countries which use the name "Burma". According to List of official languages (perhaps not the best source on this), English is an official language in 52 countries, the largest being India, USA, Pakistan, and Nigeria. -- Boracay Bill 07:51, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. How many votes do we need to do on this? This was resolved in Talk:Burma/Archive 3.--Burzum 10:25, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose for two reasons. First, this was resolved quite conclusively at the end of September, and this kind of back-and-forth is disruptive for any article, but especially for one on an important country. Two, as shown in that discussion, Burma is in fact the commonly-used name in English. And Evlekis: why the animosity toward "Ango-American biggots" ? Who are these people? Have any of them shown anything but support and compassion for the people of Burma? Biruitorul 18:05, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Apology for starting a new voting process. A voting result can be challenge if there still is argument, and it appears many are not happy with the concensus. Is burma really "in fact" the most commonly used name in English? Google search returns Myanmar twice as much as the term Burma (63 millions vs 35 millions), similarly with, Yahoo search where the terms Myanmar and Burma showing 111 million and 62 million hits respectively. Almost all of the internationally renowned English press use Myanmar instead of Burma, this include CNN, Al Jazeera English, International Herald Tribune, AP, and Reuters. This is in exception of BBC news. So when using WP:COMMONNAME, Myanmar is even more appropriate than Burma. And, remember using Myanmar does in anyway means Misplaced Pages supports the junta. --Zack2007 03:11, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

• In reply to "it appears many are not happy with the concensus" - if many are not happy, then it is not, by definition, a consensus. There remains no consensus on what to call this article. -GTBacchus 03:29, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

• Support per WP:NAME and WP:COMMONNAME. Every English-language newspaper article and television story that I have read or seen in the past few years has used "Myanmar", and that is doubly true for the increased mention in the past few months. I had always thought "Burma" was as archaic as "Peking" and "Bombay", and was actually quite surprised when this article was moved a few weeks ago. Andrwsc 18:56, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. I don't understand why the question of what the "official" name is would even enter into it.—Nat Krause 23:16, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
• Strong support as that is the name of the country, it is not for the West, or western activists to decide what this country is called especially as this is the old UK colonial name. We do not call Zimbabwe Rhodesia because we may not like the government. Great to see this being debated again, I was very saddened by the changing of the name to Burma. Thanks, SqueakBox 03:15, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

  We call it "Zimbabwe" because more English language sources call it "Zimbabwe". If more English language sources called it "Rhodesia", then so would we. WP:COMMONNAME. -GTBacchus 03:29, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

  As my comment above, Myanmar is commonly used name compared to Burma (in press, internet, also in English speaking countries), while the usage of Burma is already decreasing. So that conforms WP:COMMONNAME--Zack2007 03:34, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

  Super. As I recall, during the last debate, it was argued that "Myanmar" is not actually more common, and it was observed that it's pretty hard to tell, simply based on Google searches. I'm not taking the first of those two positions, but I would strongly agree with the second. -GTBacchus 03:39, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

• What is this? - Since when do we decide article titles by voting? -GTBacchus 03:18, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Separate subpage for naming issues?

I recommend that naming issues, particularly debates on the name of the article, be kept on a separate subpage to tidy things up. The name of the article is an important thing, and editors have made many comments about naming issue on this talk page. There is certainly enough to warrant a separate subpage, and this will prevent other issues from being choked out.

One of these other issues: should the entire article be written in past tense? Also, there are statements such as "in recent weeks" within the article - these could have been helpful for people reading the article not long after these sections were written, but would not be appropriate even a month after such statements are added.

Thanks, 60.242.0.245 13:49, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

From "democracy" to military rule

On another note, does anyone know the details of the events which led to the military take-over? The article seems to jump from Democracy one day to Emergency Law the next. These things don't happen overnight, and they are not without reason. The article does not mention whether there were economical problems at the time, or allegations of corruption or fraud. And if so, how long had it been going on, and is there any information on the popularity of the Militray-backed socialists; such as what portion of the population supported them, and why they didn't follow the "democratic" process etc. Any info? Evlekis 12:10, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Move request discussion to try and reach a consensus before requesting a move

A request has been made at Misplaced Pages:Requested moves as to whether we should change then ame from Burma to Myanamr or not. There was a discussion above with both viewpoints fairly represented but it was speedily closed because it had not been requested at RM.

• Support move, hasn't been called Burma for years and that contradicts our naming policy. Thanks, SqueakBox 19:11, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. I changed the heading and I'm going to pull the WP:RM pointer. This was just closed as a formal discussion. Bringing this up again every time it is closed does not serve any function. Have a discussion here and see if there is in fact any consensus, one way or the other. If it appears that there is a consensus for a change, then and only then, relist at WP:RM. Use this time to work to a consensus on this subject. I suspect that this is likely to remain a no consensus suggestion for the foreseeable future. Vegaswikian 20:35, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

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