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Template:Todo3

Logos of individual aircraft in Infobox Aircraft

I implemented the possibility of inserting logos of individual aircrafts in Infobox Aircraft. I understand that there has been a discussion about logos in aircraft infoboxes before, but then the question was just wether or not to include the main company logo. (which was not fair use) Understandably, the main Airbus logo was removed from template:Infobox Airbus Aircraft.

My point is that it's fair use to have logos of individual aircrafts in the infoboxes. (Confirmed by an admin) And in my obinion, the most natural thing to do would be to do so, just like we do in the infoboxes of companies, organisations, game consoles, political parties etc. To place the logo of Eurofighter Typhoon in the infobox of its article makes sense.

But i was reverted by user:BillCJ who said "just because we CAN doesn't mean it's a good idea; please discuss at WT:AIR"

What do you think? I think it should be allowed when we indeed have the commercial logos of aircrafts. - S. Solberg J. 22:33, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, the Aircraft Infobox wasn't designed with them in mind, and the Typhoon logo just doesn't work in it. It is the next image on the page. The Infobox is a pretty major component of aircraft articles, and changes need to be discussed first. "Be Bold" is not an excuse to do anything anytime without regard to what others may think. I have been promoting a "Country of origin" field for several months for the infobox,but have not just added it on my own out of respect for others. I am waitng till we have a consensus, or at least several other users support the idea. It would be nice if every once in awhile, you'd discuss an idea before implemeting it. At least then you wouldn't have me reverting you all the time. Gain a consensus to add product logos, and I won't revert them. - BillCJ 22:47, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I have never reverted you. And I've obviously now taken it to the talk page. You don't need to continue the flame war about 3RR and consensus from the A380 talkpage.

• Wouldn't the most logic thing be to include a logo considering the fact that most infoboxes outside this WikiProject contains space for one? I'm not saying that i want logos for all infobox-types on wikipedia, but logos of individual Aircraft models would in my opinion not be the least logic thing to place in infoxes. Honestly, what's the problem?
• "Typhoon logo just doesn't work in it" is a very strange and non-constructive sentence. Do you personally not like it? You should check out the infobox in the PS3 article; would that ordering of logo, text, main image be better? If you think the current infobox layout didn't work with the appearance of the logo in the Eurofighter infobox, you should remember that it's possible to redesign. - S. Solberg J. 23:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

• I never mentioned 3RR or revereting, nor did I have those in mind. And, I was promoting discussion on redesigning it BEFORE puting the logo in, not after. My point is you have a pattern of doing something first, and then being surprised when people (esp me, I'll admit) object to it. Minor tweaks without discussion are fine, but major changes should be done with the whole project in mind. Would it hurt to run an idea by someone else first? If something's a good idea, I support it, no matter who makes it. I'm not one for petty objections just because I don't like someone, but I'm not going to keep silent just because we have a history either. - BillCJ 23:53, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, please move on. - S. Solberg J. 23:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd rather see a logo at the bottom of the infobox, like where the EF logo image sits now. I don't think having a logo in the infobox helps much, but I'm not against it either. -Fnlayson 23:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

It would certainly look strange to have the rectangular image above the logo.

The commercial logos are definitely becoming increasingly distinct, emphesised and prestigious for new planes. Of course the Spitfire didn't have a logo,(and we don't need to find one) but I think the aircraft infobox should provide proper room for 'logo-identities' of modern aircrafts. - S. Solberg J. 23:39, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

A clear example is this official marketing of the JSF logo. - S. Solberg J. 21:17, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

• Not sure where you're getting the logo right below the image thing. At the very bottom or very top (current) of Infobox seems best to me. But whatever.. -Fnlayson 00:11, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone have a concrete argument for why no aircraft what so ever should be able to display its logo properly in the infobox? If not, I'll consider BillCJ's mandatory discussion finished, (for now) and available plane-logos will be inserted. - S. Solberg J. 21:17, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Only that logos are inventions of marketing departments and some aircraft have more than one logo which one will you use? - not sure that add any value. As far as I know all the logos that have been used in the past have been deleted by those that watch images. Not sure that a logo would look right in the infobox - not sure reading the comments that you can assume a consensus. MilborneOne 21:41, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Plane 2000
Caption caption (random free-license logo above)
Type	Airliner
Manufacturer	EADS (Airbus S.A.S.)
Maiden flight	27 April 2005
Introduced	25 October 2007
Status	Certified 12 December 2006
Number built	10 as of September 2007
Unit cost	US$ 296 – 316 million as of 2006

Hmm.. I haven't heard of a plane with two different official logos. Every logo on this planet is obviously created by a marketing department, but still we use them on wikipedia. I'm aware that the current infobox isn't ideal for logos, so i propose this amending of the logo-space. What do you think?

Personally, I don't mind the logos, but I have little confidence that they'll be permitted to remain. Despite what one or a few admins say, there is a very concerted effort to remove all non-free images and logos – which are typically copyrighted and trademarked – can't be used both for product "branding" and be entered into the public domain under GDFL. (In fact, the only two I've ever added to articles were denied "fair use" status and deleted on just those grounds.) And, yes, corporate and product logos can and do change over time. It's a very common occurrence, even with long-lived, well-known companies and products. Anytime a marketing department thinks it might "spruce up" the image, a new logo can appear. Askari Mark (Talk) 02:34, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Fine, you wouldn't mind logos. I don't want to start a deep and overarching discussion on wikipedia copyright here on this talkpage,(and nor should we) because I am 100% sure that the logo of the Joint Strike fighter would be just as legitimate to display in a wikipedia infobox as the logo of the PlayStation 3 in its infobox. And currently, we can assume that to be law of wikipedia. Why should it be so bloody different when it comes to planes? - S. Solberg J. 03:08, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

If we were to use logos for planes, we would of course do the same thing as we do with companies, and always insert the latest, official version. - S. Solberg J. 03:10, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree that its use is “just as legitimate”; I just don’t think the issue is worth getting worked up over, because the copyright issue is the “trump issue” that makes this particular issue moot. The so-called “fair-use nazis” are strongly determined to purge Misplaced Pages of “fair-use” images to the maximum extent possible, and their original goal was to achieve this by the end of this year; they have defined logos as inherently non-fair-use, so it's only a matter of time before the PS3 logo is gone as well. They have the upper hand since the Misplaced Pages Foundation’s legal expert supports them. I already “fought the good fight” over logos, but it has proven a losing cause. (Even the fact that editors have secured permission from companies to use their logos in Misplaced Pages articles – heck, it’s free advertising – has not prevailed.) Askari Mark (Talk) 03:26, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

But now we deal with the current situation, which is that logos for planes are in principle allowed to be displayed in infoboxes. Who's in favour? How should the infobox layout be? Any new arguments? - S. Solberg J. 03:32, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't the inclusion of an aircraft's photograph sort of negate the need for a logo? With companies, universities, et cetera, the logo represents the entity in one quick graphic. With an aircraft - or a car, for that matter - that's not really necessary, as the vehicle itself needs no further representation. ericg ✈ 06:02, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

What about game consoles? Their infoboxes have both an image of the console, and the logo. What's the difference? My point is that it's irritating to have the SVG versions of the sophisticated logos of modern planes like the Joint Stike fighter and Eurofighter without providing proper space for them in the infoboxes. New planes are more than 'anonymous pieces of machinery'; (like washing machines and fridgerators) they've obviously got a graphical profile the corporations want to emphesise, and IMHO more than most cars today. - S. Solberg J. 19:32, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

• Airbus' A350 "Extra Wide Body (XWB)" logo
• the commercial logo of the Joint Strike fighter
• the commercial logo of Eurofighter Typhoon
• the commercial logo of Dassault Rafale

- S. Solberg J. 00:25, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

In an aircraft sense, a picture of the aircraft itself makes the logo not needed, whereas game consoles have them because they are not just recognised by the look of the console, but also by the logo. Aircraft is almost always recognized by the aircraft only; I can't think of a time where I recongnised one from a logo. O₂ (息 • 吹) 22:15, 13 November 2007 (GMT)

I'm totally aware of - and I'm not trying to 'change' the fact that graphical stuff for the sake of commers has been non-existent for aircrafts in the past. (which is probably why you "can't think of a time where I recongnised one from a logo") What I am trying to do here is to point out that a new generation of fighter jets (in particular) has begun to emphesise logos in the same way as most types of products have. Nobody is going to make logos for planes that never had one. The only difference a positive consensus here would make, is that the logos I mentioned above would be relocated to the infoboxes (where logos on wikipedia usually belong) of their respective article, from thumb-boxes in the text.- ${\displaystyle \mathrm {S} }$. ${\displaystyle \mathrm {Solberg} }$ ${\displaystyle \mathrm {J} }$. 23:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

THere's nothing wrong with having the logo in a separate image below the infobox, as is done now. Why does it have to be in the Infobox? So gamers will think this is another game page, and think that they can add their cruft here too? As discussed before, the logos really won't fit perfectly without a redesign, and you don't have any support for adding the logos to the infobox as-is. You're welcome to work on one on your userspace, and present it (or them, if you end up with several designs) to the Project for consideration. Who knows, you may come up with a design that will gain a consensus to be included. If it is a good abnd workable design, I'll support it no matter who created it. The design would need to include all the fields in the current design, so it could be easily adapted to the new design. But please wait for a consensus before converting to a new design. - BillCJ 00:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Can't you see that i've made one already, and that I have placed it seven messages above this? Nobody has commented on it. (User:Ssolbergj/infobox and User:Ssolbergj/infobox/result)- ${\displaystyle \mathrm {S} }$. ${\displaystyle \mathrm {Solberg} }$ ${\displaystyle \mathrm {J} }$. 08:01, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair point. My considered opinion is that it adds nothing to the infobox and if iut did it would have to take second place to an actual photo of the plane. I don't buy into the navboxes in the infobox either.GraemeLeggett 14:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

List of what you can put on popular culture

List of what you can put on aircraft in popular culture. Even Transformers is a demonstration. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.144.73 (talk) 05:59, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

National Flags and Multinational Consortia

A recurring problem where flags are being used to indicate or highlight nationality occurs whenever a multinational consortium designs, develops and coproduces an aircraft. A good case in point is with Eurofighter, for which some editors are choosing to use the EU flag ( Europe). Since Eurofighter GmbH is not an "EU" entity, per se, I believe this is an improper approach. However, the only other obvious options are to use the flags of all the consortium members (in this case four) – which really clutters up vertical lists and tables (especially when the country names are included) – or to leave the entry without a flag at all (only a blank field or the notation "N/A"). Any thoughts on what the best approach might be? Askari Mark (Talk) 23:02, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I support adding the 4 flags rather than using EU flag . Estonia is an EU member , Adding the EU flag means Estonia is an Air crafts manufacturer. And this is false. Ammar ( - ) 07:11, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the EU flag is not appropriate. I dont like adding lots of flags - we should use the flag of the country where the aircraft is built and flown from. The Saudi typhoons will come from the UK production line. Have the same problems with Airbus the A319 for example is German and the A340 is French. With Eurocopter the EC155 is German but the EC725 is French. Sites like the UK Civil Aviation Authority aircraft register use this convention as the country of origin. MilborneOne 10:59, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

The problem is, if you add only one flag, editors will keep adding the others (or substitute the EU flag in this instance). In most cases, the flag tends to be "tied" to the company, rather than the airplane. Occasionally there are also multiple production lines involved; Egyptian F-16s, for instance, came from both US and Turkish lines (and the early EPG deliveries are even more complex). Askari Mark (Talk) 17:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Askari Mark is right , if we add only one flag we will never stop the random editors from keepin adding other flags . But whats wrong with adding 4 flags anyways ? there is room enough in the table. Ammar ( - ) 17:57, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• I've added all the Eurofighter consortium members' national flags on the Royal Saudi Air Force page. Editors are encouraged to see what it looks like and think about what might serve best: 1) No flag(s), just a link to company; or 2) all the member companies' national flags. I've listed them by country alphabetically, but an acceptable alternative would be to list them in order of descending ownership share (although, if I recall correctly, two of them may have the same share). Askari Mark (Talk) 01:44, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

In that table on the article , the Column's name is Origin . That means GmbH or BAE systems are not the correct data type for this column's fields . Ammar ( - ) 17:18, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

• Uh, the manufacturer is already identified with the model in the Aircraft column there. Why repeat the manufacturer in another column? If it is a problem, just remove the Origin column. Its benefit is marginal, imo. -Fnlayson 17:27, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Proposed deletions

• Aircraft dope (via WP:PROD)

--User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 13:36, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Aircraft dope

It seems to me that the Aircraft dope page could be expanded into something worth keeping. For example a bit of history, from the doped linen of the WWI era to modern synthetic fabrics. Then, there is the contrast between the usual technique of colouring the dope vs. the German use of printed fabrics in WWI. Room for a bit more on compositions and methods of application, too. The snippet on the LZ 129 Hindenburg page about loading it with graphite also bears reference. I'd suggest re-identifying it as a stub. Any more opinions? -- Steelpillow 20:33, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

You can add a hold-on tag, and then the discussion will go to AFD. That will give time to discuss what can be done, and improve the article in the meantime. I don't know righyt off, but is there another topic this could be merged into, or even covered elsewhere already, perhaps in more detail? - BillCJ 23:15, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

"Hold-on" is meant for speedy-deletion candidates. In the case of PROD-candidates, just remove the PROD tag and provide a reason in the edit summary (and the talk page if you feel diligent). An AFD action would only ensue if someone still felt it should be deleted and felt strong enough about it to initiate the AFD action. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:24, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Oops, I mixed the two up. Thanks! - BillCJ 00:54, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Resolved

• Lysander monoplane (via WP:PROD on 1 October 2007) Deleted

Clean-up help request

I just ran across the Jet airliner page, and it is a mess: No sources whatsoever, yet it reads as a well-written, though very biased in places, article in certain parts, leading me to believe it's based on another article from somewhere else. It's been around for about 4 years, but had no project tag at all. I've done alot of clean-up, but more eyes and heads would be useful. Feel free to check the previous versions to see what I deleted, and restore anything you believe is worth keeping if you can source it. Thanks. - BillCJ 05:48, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

The history bit is could make a good article but the more modern bits probably need some work, the language is a bit wierd. Jet airliner is not a common phrase but would be alright for describing the history, never heard the term Jetliner used (must be a north-americanism).MilborneOne 11:38, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

• Probably. Jetliner is just a shortened form of the other. Both are not common now with almost all airliners are jets, except for regional turboprops. -Fnlayson 13:45, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

• I just read the article, it reads like someone "cribbing" from another source. BTW, MilborneOne, "jetliner" came from the Avro Jetliner but was commonly applied to the de Havilland Comet in its early years, as well as other jet airliners. The term fell out of favour later but its origins were indeed, from North America. FWIW Bzuk 13:52, 2 October 2007 (UTC).

Not sure about the cribbing, but I suspect that the "period jet-set" bit is absolute tosh. I googled "747 jet airliner" and got "about 414,000" hits, so the term evidently is still in common use and the bit about it not applying to modern widebodies is, er, wide of the mark (grin). I'd say put down those scalpels and grab your chainsaws. --- Steelpillow 20:47, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

The discussion was about the term "jetliner" not necessarily "jet airliner" but surprisingly, the term is still in common usage if not in use by the aviation community. A google search I did on "jetliner" today had 803,000 hits! FWIW Bzuk 22:33, 2 October 2007 (UTC).

Engine article guideline?

I know what to do for an aircraft page, but what is the guideline for an engine article? What is a good example of an engine article? Rolls-Royce Model 250 needs some help. --Born2flie 23:44, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I would think that the same basic outline would also apply: Introductory paragraph, Infobox, Design and development, Operational history, Variants, Operators, Specifications. I like the Rolls-Royce Merlin as an example. FWIW Bzuk 23:55, 7 October 2007 (UTC).

Boeing 747 up for GA

Boeing 747 article is up for Good Article review now. Needs some work to address review comments. I could use some help crafting a Design section. I think a lot of the info is in the article, but various places. Thanks. -Fnlayson 16:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

First impression- it looks very good, accurate, well-referenced and a large amount of graphic and textual information. The citations are a bit "wonky" and the references were all wrong. I fixed the format, but do you want me to go further? FWIW Bzuk 17:21, 12 October 2007 (UTC).

• Sure, do what you can. Any help is appreciated. Only book titles are italized in references, right? And article titles are in quotes. I started removing the excess italics. -Fnlayson 17:25, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I added a Design section mainly on the basic aspects and safety features. -Fnlayson 21:55, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah, it failed GA review. It'd better than it was. Also, a user added a fact tag for it being known by the "Jumbo Jet" nickname. -Fnlayson 00:36, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Bede BD-5

This article needs some attention as it appears to be the rubber ball between some editors' feuding over WP:SPAM claims. Need some other people's opinions. Maury and Alan have already tried to help the situation but have run into a tagteam from the "spam cops." FWIW Bzuk 17:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC).

Allison T40

Does anyone have any sources they could add to the Allison T40 article? It was created in May 2007 by a user who has not edited in over 4 weeks. It is an engine that is worth covering, and I'd hate to see it deleted just because it has no sources. Also, I am considering moving the page to Allison T38, and expanding it to cover that engine. Given that the T40 is basiacally two T38s in a twin-pack (much like the PT6T), I think this is the better name. We'd need some good sourced info on the T38 before moving it tho. Thanks. - BillCJ 23:51, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Lockheed XF-104

Hi guys, I have created a new article on the Lockheed XF-104 if you would like to stop by and fix/add things, cheers Nimbus227 00:56, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

A bit of a problem here- it is an good article, well written and illustrated with a suitable reference list but here are the issues:

1. It is not adequately referenced in that I mean there are no citations provided.
2. It is not linked to the main F-104 article; and
3. I am not sure why there is so much detail on what was essentially the prototype aircraft? FWIW Bzuk 02:57, 14 October 2007 (UTC).

Thank you for your constructive comments.

1. The references are there, I just need to learn how to link the ref tags, this is my first article so forgive me if I make the odd mistake.
2. It was originally linked to the main F-104 article in two places, Bill CJ has rightly added more and cleaned the article up generally.
3. I looked at the other 'XF' articles to gauge the right length, some of them are longer and list survivors etc. I would hope that a page of detail on the birth of a fairly significant aircraft design is not excessive.
4. It really needs a three view of the type (not the main variant) if anyone can find one.

Thanks Nimbus227 12:32, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

A first article- are you kidding- it was great and the subtle changes now incorporated have made it even stronger. FWIW Bzuk 13:05, 14 October 2007 (UTC).

Thanks and thanks for the three view drawing. Lockheed used to have a historic photo archive on their website but seem to have only the more modern aircraft now, I have a photo of the wooden mock up which would be nice to post if I could get the proper clearance. Cheers Nimbus227 15:34, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

MILHIST MOS

MILHIST has put together a MILHIST MOS that they are taking comments on. I think WPAIR, and perhaps even WPAVIATION, should take a look at this. Perhaps we can join/adopt the MOS, if it can work for us as-is, or with a few adjustments. If it needs more changes to suit us, perhaps we can use it to dorm our own MOS. SOme of what the MILHIST MOS covers is already in our Page content guidelines, but there are some areas we haven't dealt with yet, such as Notability (tho som guidelines for this have been proposed). Any comments?

• That'd be something good to have. At least outline the basics. Copy their pop culture requirements to cover commercial only aircraft. Include guidelines for notability (does this model/variant get its own article?). -Fnlayson 18:14, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Found page

I just ran across this article, List of people who have died in incidents involving DC-3 aircraft. It needs alot of help, esp refernecing, and might be better off merged with another page (possibly a list of DC-3 incidents). - BillCJ 16:42, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

• I think it'd be best to merge it with DC-3 incidents article. But I'm not finding one right now. -Fnlayson 17:03, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Tailless references

OK I grabbed a few books more or less at random, let's see what they have:

• Barrie Hygate, British experimental jet aircraft, Argus Books (1990).

Page 11, De Havilland 108: "Originally planned as a half-scale model of the proposed DH.106 airliner, which ... was of tail-less layout".

• Lloyd S. Jones, U.S. Fighters, Aero Pub. (1975).

Page 142, Northrop XP-56 Black Bullet: "The third radical design resulting from the Army's proposal R-40C was Northrop's N2B tail-less fighter".

Page 317, Douglas F-6 Skyray: "All the horizontal flying controls were attached to the wing trailing edge, classifying the Skyray as 'tailless'."

• A. H. Lukins, The book of Westland aircraft, Harborough (date not recorded).

Page 41, Pterodactyl 1A and 1B: "TYPE—Two-seat sude-by-side tailless 'pusher' monoplane".

So there we have it - "tailless" and "tail-less" used interchangeably, even within the same book, but definitely used in the sense defined on Tailless aircraft.

Sorry to take so long about it. -- Steelpillow 17:44, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Formal AFD notice

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lockheed XF-104 - BillCJ 20:02, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/B-52 Stratofortress trivia (2nd nomination) - It's back!! (Like we new it would be. - BillCJ 00:55, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

A proposed generic structure for "XYZ Air Force" articles

Your comments are appreciated on this proposal. Askari Mark (Talk) 20:18, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Formal TFD notice

Template:Aircontent is up for deletion at Misplaced Pages:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 October 21#Template:Aircontent fir "violoting MOS". Why is it that these deletionists feel they never have to discuss anything? - BillCJ 02:33, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

• Someone complained about that template's See also field violating the MoS or Layout guide here before. -Fnlayson 03:57, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
  • As I mentioned in my comments to the TfD, I can't see the problem, and just tested it successfully. Since the template is a part of the Project, it sure would have been nice for the nom to discuss things here first. Oh, well. AKRadecki 05:17, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Now that the TFD has been closed, I do think it worth discussing the proposal by McSly (I think) to split the template in two. Basically, this would entail removing the {{airlistbox}} navbox portion of the aircontent template. We could then place the aircontent template minus navbox in the WP:MOS-recommended position just above the references, and have the airlistbox just above the cats and below the ELs, and at the bottom of the navbox stack (usually the company boxes). Personally, I prefer the current position of the combined aircontent template, as I have used it for over a year now in that position. However, this issue will probably continue to crop up every few months, as so perhaps at least discussing a change is warranted. Also, I'd prefer to se the "See also" section under the References, since to me the references are part of the text. In fact, I may even propose doing that at WP:MOS if we decide to move the Related contents section up. - BillCJ 08:12, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

• Sounds like the plan there. Removing the Aviation Navbox is the easy place to start. -Fnlayson 17:26, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. However, I am a bit disappointed to see that this kind of behaviour appears, since it implies that the project owns the articles. The project guidelines are not set in stone indefinitely, and from the comments at the TFD, it seems like this project's guidelines are set in stone while the MOS is not. Technically, though, nothing is, but I'm just saying that the MOS has a lot more community support than these guidelines do, and it is this project that is at fault for not following the bigger guideline. I have no objections to proposing a change on WT:MOS; just prepare yourselves for some mixed comments and criticism. :-) O₂ (息 • 吹) 02:26, 22 October 2007 (GMT)

As you did not state the above reasons for your change, I reverted them. I thought they were the first of a campaign of yours to unilaterally begin changing aircraft article pages to your own preferences. I was wrong. Hopefully next time, you'll make a better effort to identify tests and examples as such, and avoid further misunderstanding as such. As far as I know, most of the Project guidelines were written before (although many editors use caps for emphasis, as edit summaries allow no other format style, I'll use italics since you are incapable of dicerning the use of caps for Shouting or emphasis) the MOS guidelines were put in place. Up to this point, no one has made any serious proposals to change them to match the MOS, as most editors have resected the Projects' rights to do things a little differently. The way to change guidelines on Misplaced Pages is to engage in discussion with the concerned project, and try to gain a consensus to adopt the project-wide standards. It's not about things being set in stone, but following the proscribed methods that cause the least disruption. Filing deletions against project templates is certainly disruptive, and will hardly make the rest of your arguments any more appealing. So please, tone down the attitude, and you might just get a fair hearing here. - BillCJ 02:56, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

That comment does not AGF. To you it might be disruptive, but I implore you to read WP:CCC, since it does not appear that you are open to any changes. O₂ (息 • 吹) 03:22, 22 October 2007 (GMT)

LOLOL. Did you ever read my lengthy discussion on proposals before you began throwing your bombs at me here? My suggestions stand, and if you would like to discuss them, you are welcome to do so. I don't have to support changes to discuss them, and I have a long record in the project of supporting decisions I disagree with. Now, let's try to discuss the issues here from this point on, and allow others to participate, and hopefully come to some kind of concensus. That is how Concensus changes on Misplaced Pages. - BillCJ 03:37, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Back to the split issue. The current situation, with the SA section in a variant (relative to the MOS) position as a solution to having information in two places. Links to relavent lists appeared in the SA section which occurred higher in the article, then again in the nav boxes at the very end. Common sense then broke out and the idea was hit upon to move the SA section so that the nav boxes are an extension of the SA section. Because it's proper to have the nav boxes at the bottom of the article, the SA section was necessarily moved there. Now, to this proposal. Yes, we can split the template in two, but I'm not sure what that's really going to accomplish. Are you also suggesting that the SA section be moved back to its MOS-specified location above the refs? That will then again split the information apart. I personally favor leaving the SA at the end, and having the nav boxes as an extension of that section. If this location situation is kept, I'm not sure I understand what the point of splitting the template is. Some further explanation by the proposer as to the benefits would be appreciated. Oh, and one side comment regarding the 787 article. The point of having a MOS, or Project layout guidelines, for that matter, is so that there can be a standard of consistency. If all the thousands of aircraft articles are formatted per the project guidelines, then we do have consistency. For one editor to come along and change that, ie make it inconsistent with the rest of its kind of articles, and in the name of "consistency" to boot, how has the project been helped? This was my thinking in supporting Bill's reversion to O's unilateral layout change. AKRadecki 04:17, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

• I should have brought this up last night, after seeing O's explanation of his 787 changes on the TFD page, but did not get to it by the time I went to bed (5AM), and forgot today: On the layout change in the 787 article, it might be better to do this on a sandbox-type page, so that a regular article is not disrupted, so to speak. Many of the regulars use userspace sandboxes, and can easily set one up to illustrate desired changes here. - BillCJ 04:39, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't see what the problem is, the MOS' Guide to Layout clearly states that the order of the standard appendices can be manipulated. Within that guideline, the project has determined to standardize an order within its own guidelines. --Born2flie 05:40, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Then, there is this interesting little discussion involving WP:MOSHEAD. --Born2flie 05:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

English/American spellings etc.

This is probably not a new subject but we were having a light hearted discussion in Talk:Lockheed XF-104 as I started the article in British English and discovered that the apparent convention is to use the form of English of the country that the aircraft belongs to, e.g. US in the case of the F-104. It has been suggested that an icon or template (perhaps one exists) be placed on the talk page to denote which form of English will be used throughout the article. Perhaps others would like to comment or advise on this idea and clarify the convention at the same time. Cheers Nimbus227 23:39, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

That was not just for this particular article BTW but intended for future articles or even to be applied to existing articles where there could be some 'transatlantic spelling' inconsistences going on. Nimbus227 23:43, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that is a WP:Aircraft convention; articles on aircraft from non-English-speaking nations follow the "first author" rule. This actually follows from the standard WP:MOS which prefers the "native English" of the subject article, if there is one. Cheers, Askari Mark (Talk) 03:52, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

• The main thing here is about adding a tag or template to indicate spelling type (US, British or Canadian) used. Do you think this is a good idea or not? -Fnlayson 04:44, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd support a template header to go at/near the top of the talk page with the other templates. It could be a simple text template statin: "This article is written in (parameter) English. Please try to conform to this variant's spelling and grammar." THere could be a simple parameter to insert a specifed country into the template. Alternativley, we could add a few icons/graphics, or even mroe text such as "If you are not familiar with the variant's grammar and spelinng rules, do the best you can, but indicate in your edit summary that you need help in that area." I am sure someone could come up with flags that are displayed for each country when it's selected, but right now I think we ought to just come up with a simple, functional template we can use right way, and then discuss changes and tweaks later. PS, I have no clue how to write the program at this point, but could adapt an existing one if it had similar parameters. - BillCJ 05:27, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Help

I need help with sourcing this image which is from the Israeli Air Force site —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gilisa (talk • contribs) 05:17, 24 October 2007

The IAF website the picture is from has the following license:

License Agreement

The Israeli Air-Force ("IAF") offers the information in this web site on the Internet network ("Service") and the user is confound to this license agreement. The term "User" refers to any person whom contacts or interacts with the service, or possess an account from which a connection to the service is performed.

According to copyright laws, including the Israeli court as well as international treaties, the copyright of IAF publications, including all information published in this service belong to the Department of Security and Israeli Defense Force. These copyrights also apply to text, images, illustrations, maps, sound samples, video or audio bits, graphics, "Flash" applets and software applications ("The protected material").

All rights reserved to the state of Israel. Department of Security, 2003(C).

Doesn't look like you'll be able to use the pic unless the IDF and Department of Security release it into the public domain. --Born2flie 15:17, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, this picture record one of the Lavi test flights, I assume that I can use the Israel Aerospace Industries pictures-or that it the same problems as the IAF one's?--Gilisa 15:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)--

You can't assume anything, it is the user's responsibility to research the license of images. I just went and checked what kind of license IAI puts on their website, and it says, "No content from this Website may be copied, reproduced , republished, modified, uploaded, posted, transmitted, or distributed in any way." So unless you get the image from a different IAI source, and that source has a very specific license that allows it to be used, you're pretty much out of luck. Sorry. AKRadecki 15:58, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

New article, Lockheed NF-104A

Here is another F-104 related article for you guys to look at, hopefully it will not get nominated for AFD like the last one. It could use a three view of the type, cheers. Nimbus227 19:07, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Formal deletion notice

The Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:List of notable accidents and incidents on commercial aircraft/Guideline for inclusion criteria and format page is up for deletion. I didn't even realize it existed. I thinks it's something that can be moved to the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Aviation/Aviation accident task force's space, and perhaps expanded upon to be more general. - BillCJ 19:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

F-86 Sabre specifications

Lately, a question has arisen as to the information presented in the F-86 Sabre specifications table wherein the F-series is identified but due to the wide range of performance between the block numbers from F-86F-1-NA to F-86F-40-NA, the actual sub-type is not given. Is there a standard for choosing the "representative" aircraft variant that is chosen for the specifications table? by most produced? by most capable/best performing or definitive variant for modifications? It looks like the fastest and most potent of the F-86F series is actually the block 30-NA which topped out at 695 mph at sea level and while the F-86F-40-NA had a slightly higher ceiling and improved maneuverability due to an enlarged wing, the penalty paid for tighter turns at high altitude was seen in lower performance at both higher and lower ends of the envelope where is reached 678 mph at sea level. Which one of these would you choose, given that Ray Wagner's book gives full detail specifications for all F-86F block series? FWIW Bzuk 21:12, 30 October 2007 (UTC).

Media content?

Can we have a discussion about the merits of including videos in articles? As an example, look at Shuttle Carrier Aircraft. The size of the video previews really overpowers the article. It seems to me that a link to the Commons listings would be sufficient. Comments? (Oh, and BTW, the media doesn't work in Netscape browsers...should this be a consideration, too?)AKRadecki 18:16, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

• Those things weren't a problem when they were simple links. I say either put them in a gallery or move to Commons. -Fnlayson 18:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I've seen those large boxes on several aircraft articles lately, tho can't remeber which ones right off. I think the straight links are the best, with Commons as a second option. I'm not a fan of galleries, but can live with that if the consensus is for them. - BillCJ 19:14, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

For two examples, Amelia Earhart had a discreet and well-placed video that is now no longer in the article whereas the H-4 Hercules has a much more prominent video section that like Akradecki has described, it is an example of a video that does detract from the overall graphic appearance of the article. Like BillCJ, I would have no objection to their use if there could be some means of limiting the overall size of the video "window." FWIW Bzuk 19:26, 31 October 2007 (UTC).

I would agree with User:Akradecki - the video previews overpower the article. I would suggest that the videos should be changed to a link and the previews removed. MilborneOne 22:17, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

At the subject article, I've now combined everything into one gallery, and it looks more appropriate to me. Comments? AKRadecki 17:30, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• Super! That worked well. I didn't think about images mixing in when I mentioned a gallery, but that works fine. -Fnlayson 17:39, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Given that some of these images still are in place, how do you reduce the size of the image? FWI Bzuk 04:51, 2 November 2007 (UTC).

New article

Just found this article, US Aircraft A-67 Dragon. Is't not bad, and seems to cite some outside sources. Definitely needs wikifying tho, if it's keepable. - BillCJ 17:18, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

• It should be keepable. Just needs work formatting and organizing first. The first sentence should say what exactly it is. -Fnlayson 17:33, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
• I copied it over to a sandbox before it got deleted. Hopefully I can make a decent stub article on it. -Fnlayson 00:15, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Project Maintenance

There is now a new page, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Aviation/Maintenance, that lists backlogged areas needing work, articles not covered under the assessment, etc. It is automatically updated by a bot daily. If your looking for something to do, check it out. If there is anything that you would like to see covered, let me know. - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 23:58, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

New comparison article

I just stumbled on the new Comparison between Rolls-Royce Trent 900 and Engine Alliance GP7000 article. Do we really need an article on this? Most of the info should be merged into the A380 page, or the separate engine articles. Another alternative, considering how large the A380 page already is, would be to split off the whole engine section to a new page, possibly by moving and expanding this comparison page. Any thoughts? - BillCJ 19:13, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Most of this is already in the two engine articles - I don't see this page as being needed. Nigel Ish 21:16, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Can we discuss it here? - S. Solberg J. 16:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I understand the reason for creating the page was primarily to space for the engine comparison table, and considering the length of the article, that does make some sense. However, there are probably better ways to spin off sections of the A380 article that would be worht discussing. Perhaps an article on all the propulsion aspects of the design, including the engines, or on design features, or background, etc. One reason why it's a good idea to discuss splits and spinoffs is to get other opinions and options. Sometimes our initial ideas are good-faith attempts to improve content, but there may be better ways to accomplish the same thing, and discussions can bring that out. I'd like to recommend here that we take a look at the articlce as a whole, and see if there are sections that could be spun off and make good articles on there own. - BillCJ 17:30, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Lady Southern Cross/Lockheed Altair merge

I think that these two articles Lady Southern Cross and Lockheed Altair should be merged. It looks like I could do it but wanted to check first before upsetting anyone, any thoughts? Cheers. Nimbus227 23:00, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Aircraft Infobox note

The note in the usage section here Template:Infobox Aircraft says to only list Primary user in cases where there are more than 3 More users (4 total users). That's not what's generally done in WP:Air articles. More like the top 4 users based on quantity (or other criteria maybe) are listed. I think the note should be removed or reworded to say top 3 more users. Suggestions? Opinions? -Fnlayson 20:16, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Check Wingweb citations for Air Vectors content

Greg Goebel, the editor of Air Vectors posted a notice on the Antonov An-2 talk page that an outfit named Wingweb.co.uk that is posting aviation articles which “are largely or entirely downloads of Air Vectors articles -- advertized as "original content & images" though they also lifted many of my photos and artwork.” It would be courteous to check any citations to Wingweb (including external links) that we come across and if they are copies of his work, then change the citation appropriately. Askari Mark (Talk) 04:26, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

All the external links should be gone and btw a quick google search on each on them clearly showed they were copy and paste from the Air vectors site. --McSly 18:48, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Unidentified Flying Object

Does anyone know what this aircraft is? A lookup of the tail number says it's a Bombardier CL-600-2C10, but it sure doesn't look like any of the aircraft in that article. --Carnildo 06:44, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

See: Bombardier CRJ. FWIW Bzuk 06:48, 9 November 2007 (UTC).

Listed as a Bombardier CRJ700 on Planespotters.net. -Fnlayson 07:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The Bombardier CL-600-2C10 is the official designation, it the same as the Regional Jet 700, 701 and 702 which are just marketing names (FAA Type Certificate). MilborneOne 18:27, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. --Carnildo 19:03, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Help needed on Image challenges

HELP, The following images have all been challenged:

1. Image copyright problem with Image:P-51D Tika IV 361st fg.jpg
2. Unspecified source for Image:P-63 Kingcobras.jpg
3. Image copyright problem with Image:P-59 Airacomet.jpg
4. Unspecified source for Image:B 26.jpg
5. Unspecified source for Image:B-25 refuelling.jpg
6. Unspecified source for Image:P-39N.jpg
7. Unspecified source for Image:B-25s in New Guinea.jpg
8. Unspecified source for Image:B 24 in raf service 23 03 05.jpg
9. Image copyright problem with Image:Capturedfw190 red.jpg
10. Image copyright problem with Image:Fw 190A starting up.jpg
11. Image copyright problem with Image:Fw 190As in flight.jpg
12. Image copyright problem with Image:Me 262 Abandoned.jpg
13. Image copyright problem with Image:Junkers 88.jpg
14. Image copyright problem with Image:Junkers 88.1.jpg
15. Image copyright problem with Image:Junkers 88k2.jpg
16. Unspecified source for Image:Stirling of 7 sqn.jpg
17. Image copyright problem with Image:Spitfire V 316.jpg
18. Image copyright problem with Image:Mosquito Fighter-bomber.jpg
19. Image copyright problem with Image:DH98 Mosquito bomber.jpg
20. Unspecified source for Image:Hawker Typhoon.jpg
21. Unspecified source for Image:Beaufighter252sqn.jpg
22. Unspecified source for Image:Short Shetland.jpg
23. Image copyright problem with Image:Fairey Barracuda.1.jpg
24. Unspecified source for Image:Westland Whirlwind prototype.jpg

All of these images will be removed by TabooTikiGod who has made the sweeping challenges. I believe they can all fall under

This work created by the United Kingdom Government is in the public domain. This is because it is one of the following: It is a photograph taken prior to 1 June 1957; or It was published prior to 1975; or It is an artistic work other than a photograph or engraving (e.g. a painting) which was created prior to 1975. HMSO has declared that the expiry of Crown Copyrights applies worldwide (ref: HMSO Email Reply) More information. See also Copyright and Crown copyright artistic works. PD Public domain false false

or

This image is a work of a U.S. Air Force Airman or employee of the Department of the Air Force, taken or made as part of that person's official duties. As a work of the U.S. federal government, the image is in the public domain in the United States. PD Public domain false false

or other appropriate PD tags. Can you help! Bzuk 23:10, 15 November 2007 (UTC).

In reference to your claim, the webmaster of the website WWII in Color has a FAQ website which states the following:

"Most of the images stored on ww2incolor.com were collected from government sources or submitted by their respective owners. This does not mean that all images on this site are in the public domain. The majority of the images, unfortunately, have an unknown copyright status and therefore it is recommended that you do not distribute or copy them for any commercial purposes unless they are specifically stated to be in the public domain (some images have a “public domain” notice in their captions)."

It further states:

"However, some of the images were photographed by private individuals, media or other government entities (such as the United Kingdom) that do not fall under public domain law."

Therefore, the images which you have uploaded directly from the website, unless specified, are not public domain. These images all have unverified sources which you have uploaded to Misplaced Pages and the Wiki Commons. -TabooTikiGod 23:28, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I have reviewed the site and there is also a notation that the images are: "100% Public Domain" (Content is in the public domain, but privacy and publicity rights may still apply. For example, you can't use a photograph of John Wayne in a Viagra TV commercial without getting permission from his estate.) The rest of the quote which was not stated is: : an image in this gallery contains an unknown copyright status (these notices are available beneath the photo captions. NOTE: I am currently implementing this, not all images are marked) then it shall be known that it is being displayed on this website under the 'fair use' doctrine under U.S. copyright law that provides for the licit, non-licensed citation or incorporation of possible U.S. copyrighted material. In a nutshell, this means that those images, according to US law, can only be used by this website for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research and is therefore not an infringement of copyright as this website's sole purpose is to educate and research the World War II era.

Furthermore, ww2incolor.com complies and is protected in other countries under 'Fair Dealing' (United Kingdom, Canada)."

This issue has been reviewed before and was thought to have been resolved, now this crusader arrives with a new interpretation. I have already asked for a review by admins who have been involved previously. Bzuk 23:36, 15 November 2007 (UTC).

In reference to your claim, you have cited from the following: FAQ to Purchase CD The images on the CD for purchase are US Public Domain, however, the website does not state that all of the images on the website WWII in Color are public domain. Please see website FAQ about images. -TabooTikiGod 23:42, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Only the images that have a questionable status should be in question and the website indicates that. The others have no contentious issues of copyright and are believed to be in the public domain. The CD is based on the very same images that are displayed on the website. FWIW Bzuk 23:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC).

From what I have read, please see the FAQ on the website "This does not mean that all images on this site are in the public domain. The majority of the images, unfortunately, have an unknown copyright status and therefore it is recommended that you do not distribute or copy them for any commercial purposes unless they are specifically stated to be in the public domain (some images have a “public domain” notice in their captions)" Please see WP:IUP -TabooTikiGod 23:50, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

{Deindent) First, TabooTikiGod, you really should have gone and brought this up for discussion first. Major actions like this, when done unilaterally, are both disruptive and plain rude. Common sense can prevail here. Yes, there might be images that are questionable, but with a little effort, they can be weeded out. To blanketly tag all as such, especially when some images are necessarily PD because of where they were shot from, is unnecessary. Let's try to approach this with a little common sense, shall we? I'll start looking through these and start trying to sort it out. AKRadecki 01:12, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

According to Misplaced Pages policy, these images meet the criteria for speedy deletion, I do not make up the rules for this criteria--Misplaced Pages does. Yes, these images are indeed in question, primarily the source which is for all intent and purposes--uncited and therefore not public domain. The webmaster on WWII in Color even has a disclaimer under the FAQ section. I suggest you learn how to communicate with other users on Misplaced Pages without resorting to making claims that I do not have any common sense. See WP:CIVIL -TabooTikiGod 01:18, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say you didn't have common sense, but I don't think you were exercising it. And before you go lecturing someone on not knowing how to communicate, consider that you could have made this whole process a lot easier for everyone by communicating first that there was a concern. Take for instance, the air-to-air shots in a war...had to have come from another Air Corps plane, so they were taken by somone during their duties, and therefore common sense says that there shouldn't be a problem with these.

• Image:P-51D Tika IV 361st fg.jpg: This was clearly taken from another Army air corps plane...and is obviously PD.
• Image:P-63 Kingcobras.jpg: same as above...air-to-air inherently must be PD because of where it was shot.
• Image:P-59 Airacomet.jpg: same, air-to-air

First 3, saving before looking at more. AKRadecki 01:27, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

• Image:B-25 refuelling.jpg: This one could go either way. Bzuk, you noted on your license tag that the author had released it...I don't see that on the original site, can you point me two where you got this info?
• Image:P-39N.jpg: Given the location and setting, could not have been taken by anyone other than another serviceman.
• Image:B-25s in New Guinea.jpg: air-to-air during a bombing raid. No one was in the air except servicement.
• Image:B 24 in raf service 23 03 05.jpg: Another obvious one. As the plane is british, the brit tag is most appropriate.
• Image:Capturedfw190 red.jpg: Copyright is claimed at source, so if you want to use this, add Fair Use rationale (it would be certainly legit...no way to reproduce that!) Incidently, the website URL for the copyright isn't working.
• Image:Fw 190A starting up.jpg: Bzuk, need clarification on S. Kunker's release. I'll leave this one tagged for now.
• Image:Fw 190As in flight.jpg: Bzuk, this one too. Incidently, there was discussion somewhere recently about captured Nazi material being PD...does anyone recall where this was discussed?
• Image:Me 262 Abandoned.jpg, Image:Junkers 88.1.jpg, Image:Junkers 88k2.jpg, Image:Junkers 88.jpg More for Bzuk.
• Image:Stirling of 7 sqn.jpg: This was properly tagged, as it is clearly before 1957.
• Image:Spitfire V 316.jpg: UK image older that 50 years, so PD.

(Off to dinner...will review the rest later...Bzuk, could you please address the notes above for you?)

Learn to be more civil, it is implied, this is confirmed by your statement above. Again, I will refer you to WP:IUP and the FAQ website on WWII in Color, the copyright status of those images which you cited above have an unknown status, even with this knowledge that the source page states that the copyright status is unknown, you reverted the image http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:P-51D_Tika_IV_361st_fg.jpg twice as indicated on the image history page. -TabooTikiGod 01:37, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

This artificially created crisis regarding images is easily solved for nearly every WW2 photo of US aircraft. By far the majority were snapped by US servicemen in the course of their duties. No more quoting of ww2incolor's FAQ is required--it's rendered moot by WP's US Govt image license. Binksternet 01:40, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Tiki, I have reverted, because of my notations above. And I will be reverting others. I have also asked another admin to comment as well. If you want folks to be civil to you, you could certainly start out by acting civil yourself, which includes discussing things before making major changes. Tagging the core library of images that are clearly taken by U.S. Servicemen, in fact could not have been taken by anyone else, was not cool. AKRadecki 01:46, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I am being civil, I am not the one who is implying to another user that he/she does not have any common sense. Furthermore, I will re-instate that these images are in clear violation of copyright status and meet the criteria for speedy deletion. I have also taken it upon myself to contact Misplaced Pages via email and other administrators to your actions. -TabooTikiGod 01:54, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

As you are well entitled to. However, they are not in clear violation of copyright, as most of these, as I've noted above, are clearly in Public Domain. AKRadecki 02:04, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Between reading the disclaimer on the FAQ website, Wiki policy WP:IUP and criteria for speedy deletion, the language is clear cut and it is not public domain. I will be contacting the Designated agent responsible for claiming U.S. copyright infringement and filing a formal online copyright infrigement liability limitation act in reference to your actions. -TabooTikiGod 02:09, 16 November 2007 (UTC)