Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:02, 5 January 2008

Initial thoughts?

The thing, as written out in this first version, is basically the entire scope of the project. Pick a non-administrative major task or backlog, and highlight it to get it done. If no "special ones" are slated or asked for on a given day, we fall back to a standard rotation of important ones. That's it. Literally. Start with the fair use image tagging till it's done, and if that works, it's a good barometer if it's worth keeping the project up. Lawrence Cohen 17:50, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Looks good. Could you work in the "5 a day" idea? That's a bit more achievable for most people. I tend to find once I've done five I end up doing a bit more. Carcharoth (talk) 17:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Done and done. Check out those sample watchdetail pages, and I updated the policy page as well. Lawrence Cohen 17:59, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I strongly support this idea both in the short term and the long term. is it listed at VP-P? MBisanz 17:58, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Yep, it is. :) Lawrence Cohen 17:59, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I think our immediate concern is the images as noted from where this idea came from. After that's resolved, it would be better to have a rotation not so much based on days of the week, but just on general need, and barring that, a cycle that is not weekly so that an area of cleanup doesn't always fall on the same day of the week (may get too much or too little assistance that way). --MASEM 18:07, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, that was just an initial example formulation. I'm assuming for the Watchdetails we can just make pages like Misplaced Pages:Task of the Day/January 5 2008, Misplaced Pages:Task of the Day/March 25 2008, and so on. Protect them, transclude them to MediaWiki:Watchdetails, and done. The whole thing honestly should be an easy and fun exercise after the images are done, to populate out. Lawrence Cohen 18:11, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Exactly what I was thinking Lawrence. Good work on being so pro-active. I guess the question is: what is the quickest way of getting this in flux ? What is the TODO list for getting the project running ? --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 18:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Getting the bot operators to start posting images to the daily pages, and then getting this all into the Watchlist details every day without anyone trying to take it back out. Since this is such an important thing, preferably without that annoying "dismiss" button. Lawrence Cohen 18:25, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Image bot people

I left a note for Betacommand to check this out. Who else does a lot of that bot image work that should know about this? Lawrence Cohen 18:12, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

User:ST47 -- lucasbfr 18:19, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Might try User:Carnildo, User:Remember the dot, User:Cobi, User:MaxSem, and User:Lar. MBisanz 18:28, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. I don't do much image work, I just seem to offer my opinion a lot when other people talk about it. :) I gave this a once over and it seems a marvelous idea, and the initial work on it seems pretty first rate. It would be awesome if it catches on. ++Lar: t/c 20:47, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I got ST47, I'll get the rest of them now. Lawrence Cohen 18:28, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll let AzaThoth know too, for Twinkle. Lawrence Cohen 18:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Quadell made a brief venture into image bot work. I'll ask him as well. Carcharoth (talk) 19:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

What sort of images would be posted, exactly? Anything that gets tagged for deletion? Things that we decide need human review? --uǝʌǝsʎʇɹnoɟʇs(st47) 19:33, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

My first thought was that we'd basically go through the lists of images that you and Beta are tagging in general, this pool of "60,000" that kept getting talked about on the AN thread. That would be all the ones currently with no fair use (or correctly formatted fair use) that have to be deleted after March. The idea was that as your bots tag them, and tag the uploader's user page, they at the same time list them here on the given day's page to create a backlog to go through. Lawrence Cohen 21:00, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

One bunch that might be easy to sort are album cover images. These are pretty cut and dried Fair Use when used to illustrate the article about the album, but hardly ever anywhere else. Someone just getting started helping might be advised to work on those... There are a lot, and the cleanup is pretty much always the same... if the image is used on the album article, say so, if it's used anywhere else, it almost always should be removed from those places absent an existing strong justification on the fair use section of the image page, and if it's not used on the album article at all (because there isn't one, not a notable enough album or whatever) it's deletion fodder. Or so I've believed. ++Lar: t/c 23:28, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

To do list for the images test run

1. Get bot operators to update the daily pages with links to the images.
2. Get Misplaced Pages:Task of the Day/Watchdetails Image Project protected by an admin.
3. Get Misplaced Pages:Task of the Day/Watchdetails Image Project transcluded to MediaWiki:Watchdetails (without that annoying dismiss button).
4. Get people to clear out each day's backlog. When a day's backlog is cleared, an admin updates Misplaced Pages:Task of the Day/Watchdetails Image Project to reflect the next/oldest backlog day.
5. Start fixing images, check back sometime in March.

What am I missing? Lawrence Cohen 18:27, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use instructions for the backlog pages

I'd add that we should add a brief set of instructions for clearing the backlog of images. We could include an introductory paragraph, a list of things to look for, and maybe links to templates for Fair Use Rationales. This could be copied to the top of each backlog page, and would help users who click the link on the watchlist, but are otherwise unaware of what is going on. UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 18:49, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes i think that this is one case where a small "howto" might be useful. We could just put it at the top of "todays backlog" --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 19:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I can see it now. "Thanks for helping. This is the issue, and this is what needs to happen now. Pick 5 of the images below (or as many as you like) and see if they have the following: (list) If they don't, please edit the page to include the following: (list) You might want to use one of these templates as a guide: (list), or have a look at these examples of correctly composed Fair Use Rationales: (list)." Obviously, I still need to flesh it out a little, but that'd be my general idea. UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 19:09, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Would you mind fleshing that out as a page like at Misplaced Pages:Task of the Day/Image Project/Backlog header that I just made for you? :) Someone very familiar with the Fair Use rules in question here like you would be best (I don't know the intricacies quite as well). Lawrence Cohen 19:14, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I have a first draft up. It's way, way too long, but we can trim it down quite a bit. UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 19:36, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Can I suggest that we add a template, say "today-image-unsure" (or some easy name to remember) to allow users that look at an image and are unsure to have that image pop up into a category that would then be non-obvious cases of failure or non-failure for fair use rationales? Ideally it would remove the image from the proposed list but even if it can't, this would then be (hopefully) a very select category that people more aware of FURs and copyrights can look at. Not to necessary compare editors to phone support, but this provides a way to "escalate" a problem image to a better level of support. --MASEM 21:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I've added language to include the template in the header. We might also want a template that says "I've reviewed this image, and it's not eligible for use under the Fair Use policy". I don't know if that would mean tagging the image for deletion, or using some other process - but that might be something we ask users to escalate as well. UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 22:53, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Today's featured backlog

Just kidding about the title ;-) I like the idea! It would be nice if we could somehow include a dynamic list of 5 pages that need cleanup, which would encourage more users to participate. —Remember the dot 18:52, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Sort of like the recent changes header? here? Lawrence Cohen 18:59, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Also, someone might want to send this to the list-serve. I'm gonna post it as part of a suggestion for the SignPost on this new phase of BcB. MBisanz 19:00, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Would someone that is subscribed mind sending it? Lawrence Cohen 19:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Information and advice

We need to prominently link to places to get information and advice. We don't want people doing things wrong and revert wars springing up. Image talk pages can help for a while, but after that some obvious places to go to for advice and discussion: WP:NFC, WP:NFCC, WT:NFC, WP:PUI, WP:IFD and that new media and copyright noticeboard I can't remember the name of... Carcharoth (talk) 19:28, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Media copyright questions its a mouthfull. MBisanz 19:36, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not Misplaced Pages:Media copyright questions. Ah. It's Misplaced Pages:Image copyright help desk! Carcharoth (talk) 19:38, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

What about links to a couple of images in the backlog headers with very clean, clear, well-done Fair Use setups, as examples? Lawrence Cohen 19:45, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

One of the best images I've ever seen for that purpose is Image:FirstUnionLogo.png and the company no longer exists, so its not a Advert issue. MBisanz 19:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I've taken that example (which is a good one), and used it to start an Misplaced Pages:Task of the Day/Example Rationales, which (I hope) will eventually serve as a set of live examples of real images with good rationales. I had wanted to put actual images and rationales on the page, but I now realize that - look at that - we don't actually have a valid rationale for using non-free images in that context. UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 20:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. Good question. There are examples using templates, some examples using the 10 NFCC, and some unique examples. Off the top of my head, I remember seeing some very good examples, but will struggle to remember them. Image:WW2 Iwo Jima flag raising.jpg (used in Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima), Image:WorfTNG.jpg (used in Worf) are two that I saw recently. There are some examples of really long and detailed rationales around as well (literally pages and pages!). Carcharoth (talk) 20:08, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

The Iwo Jima photo is an excellent example, even with someone having added a rationale for an article currently being written in the userspace. I've added both examples to the Example Rationales page. UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 21:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Using Category:Disputed_non-free_images for our purposes

Betacommand just pointed out Category:Disputed_non-free_images to me, and I made Misplaced Pages:Task of the Day/Image Project/January 3, 2007 as a test with it. How about simply including the category contents there? Easier solution on the botters/taggers since the category already exists, but we need to be able to make getting the images easy. I'm just thinking of being able to still use our header to instruct people on what to do with the images they find. Lawrence Cohen 00:01, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Even better - there's a tracker that lists the images under each of these categories. I'll transclude it below for discussion, but I also think it may prove useful once we go live.

Thoughts? UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 04:19, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

As an aside, note the number of images from Wednesday's bot run. We may wish to seek Admin opinions on the feasibility of delaying those mass deletions for at least a few days. UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 04:20, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Since we're only dealing with 70,000 images overall and tops 1,500 new ones per day, maybe BCB could re-run that category and spread those images out in the range of 14-21 days from now? MBisanz 04:23, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I've requested it, although I'd prefer BCB stay focused on processing images for the first time, does anyone have a spare Bot lying around that could do this? MBisanz 04:29, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

BC says its not a problem, since it'll just take more than a day for the admins to process it, so as long as there aren't any deletionbots running (and I think we'd notice it) it shouldn't be an issue. MBisanz 04:31, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Could someone review the image deletion logs for the past few months and see who has been doing mass deletions (ie. helping to clear the backlogs). There are people using scripts and TWINKLE. We don't want them to suddenly start deleting things (helpfully "clearing the backlog") because they weren't aware of what we are doing here and because they weren't aware of Betacommand's note above. The only mass deletion I personally saw was by User:Maxim using TWINKLE. I think User:East718 may use the same method. I'll notify them. Note that different peopel deal with different categories, and that some categories are harder than others to review and fix adequately (eg. the lacking sources one). Are we just dealing with disputed rationales here, or more than that? Carcharoth (talk) 10:04, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to hold off on doing the January 1 and 2 DFUI backlogs until the rate of fixing images peters off, at which point I'll sic my pack of adminbots on it... kidding... east.718 at 10:21, January 5, 2008

Thanks East, as far I know, BCB only tags images that lack a rationale or that lack a valid article name. There is a bot that checks sources, but for the life of me, I can't remember it. So really our goal here is making sure that under FIle Links are only articles in which the image is appropriate and that those EXACT (down to the space and caps) are mentioned in the image summary/rationale. If a user wants to be nice and reformat the rationale into a template (I think there are only 600-1000 non-conforming template images), thats just extra icing. MBisanz 12:20, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, I've been inspecting the categories daily, and removing some images. I'm ready to run TWINKLE on it. Just give me a timeline on how much to hold off, and I can do the deleting part very easily. Maxim_(talk) 13:40, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Commenting out

I was looking at this proposed page Misplaced Pages:Task of the Day/Image Project/January 3, 2007. Is there going to be a way users can comment/move out images that SHOULD unambiguously be deleted, so other users won't have to review them? Sort of like patrolling in the backlog. Also, some formatting (boxes, subsections, etc) would probably improve usability and appeal of the page, but the main goal should be getting it LIVE, asthetic changes can come over time. MBisanz 06:56, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Just replace the di-disputed tag with another one that sticks in the same date category but says it has been reviewed and passed for deletion. When the date expires we could let loose an admin deletion bot. I have no objection to deletion bots running through lists that have been passed by humans, as long as a descriptive and informative deletion summary is used. Carcharoth (talk) 09:59, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Specific categories

If anybody wants a list of images that are in specific categories, such as only album covers, books, or logos from the 1/1 and 1/2 DFUI backlogs, get in touch with me. I think it would be good to group images like this, because people can concentrate on adding what is essentially a boilerplate rationale on several similar images. east.718 at 10:24, January 5, 2008

I'm happy to do book covers. I don't mind grabbing a list, setting up my own gallery using preview, and picking out the book covers, but if you have a better method, please send me a list (copied to talk page as well). Carcharoth (talk) 11:22, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm working on this. A couple test runs have shown that a complete run will take around five hours. east.718 at 12:17, January 5, 2008

Could you run one for logos? Thats my personal hobby. MBisanz 12:21, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for setting this project up! East718, could you make a list of disputed promotional images - {{Non-free promotional}}? Bláthnaid 14:04, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Editor Review

There is a seriously bad backlog at Misplaced Pages:Editor Review. While it is an informal process and not essential to Misplaced Pages unlike actual articles, I am hoping that it is possible to incorporate this into the project somehow, perhaps as a one off thing? I think this proposal is a very good one and I believe that this could provide a solution to these types of backlogs too, somehow. .:Alex:. 13:16, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

A good suggestion

I'd link to find a fault with it, but I can't; seems like a really good idea actually. I would like to see it rotated through the major backlogs, trying to get as much done as possible. Good work and good luck! GDonato (talk) 13:19, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Templates for this/possible abuse/doublecheck?

Two things: I mentioned above and in the current rewrite its present that we want to provide a passthrough template for any of the TODAY projects that need more expert review. I'm thinking that since this project is potentially modular, we want to keep the list of templates consistent so that those that participated repeatedly don't have to keep looking for the instructions. Thus I propose that templates should be named {{today <project> <result>}} where project is the day's task ("image", "cleanup", etc) and result being "unsure" or some other result. Redirections from dash versions should be made available, and while I would be tempted to make TLA redirects ("tiu" for "today image unsure") that may hit conflicts later.

Which brings me to the question of: besides noting images or other articles where one is unsure, do we want to mark those that have been reviewed as well ("today image done") ? One reason to do this is to track possible abuse: maybe someone simply goes through and removes the warning tag but doesn't fix the article up , and does that for several images, or maybe that someone is confused but tries to fix such and maybe makes the rationales worse inadvertently. If we have a second "private" version of BCB or a similar bot that ran only on the images passed the previous day, we could report the results to a different category so that abuse may be caught or small mistakes fixed. A second and more vanity based reason is that we would be able to track how much participation there is in the project somewhat easily and maybe adjust the rotation of the Task of the Day to try to get more involved in one sub project by presenting it more frequently. --MASEM 15:02, 5 January 2008 (UTC)