Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 22:21, 31 January 2008

Template:WikiProject Horse breeds

Recent edits and citation format

Per the edit history of this article over the past week, I did a little cleanup, keeping what appeared to be the best of some of the word tweaks and new material. Cleaned up and expanded the controversies section, tossed a possibly dubious statement that had been fact tagged for quite a while, other assorted bits and pieces.

Comment on citations to avoid future edit wars: Overall, wikipedia guidelines prefer footnotes to inline citations, and overall it's best to follow them here. However, for the purpose of links to photographs, given that wikipedia itself has few examples but we want an illustration, I am OK with the inline links at those places only. It's a little awkward to have both forms, but if we consider the inlink links a stopgap measure until wikimedia commons has actual photos we can insert into the article, it works for me.

Oh, and all you Appy people, get out those digital cameras and start snapping photos of striped, hooves, mottled skin, etc... Misplaced Pages needs your help! (smile) See Commons--upload file for more info. Montanabw 03:07, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

GA pre-pre review

• Lede. WAYYY short. We want two or three hefty paragraphs here.
• Citations. Lots of them. For this size I'd expect at least twice this many.
• Gotta get rid of the external links inside the text of the article. GA will shoot you down asap for that.
• Popular culture. GA hates these, but you can do them if they are bigger than this one. And you left off John Wayne's black appy that's in a couple of films with him! Might also mention the appy son of Secretariat.
• Consider starting a ApHC article and move some of that stuff over there. It'll look neater and you can prune some of the external links over there too.
• Try to expand the first two subsections of the History section. Or combine them. Right now they are so short, they overpower the Nez Perce sections and make them look too big
• Consider an "influences on other breeds" or "influences from other breeds" section.
• Uses section. Also explain the costume class they used to have.
• Im pretty sure the license plate is wrongly tagged on Commons. The tag that is on it only applies to the Federal gov, and the plate is from a state gov.
• If the weather ever gets warm AND sunny here, I'll trek to the stable and take some shots. Couple of appys there.

I'm just dead dog tired tonight. I'll try to throw some fact tags at places and throw some citations up tomorrow. And comb over this more thoroughly. It's not that far off, honestly. Clean up clean up clean up. That's the main thing.Ealdgyth | Talk 04:55, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, get a good night's sleep! What's your position on footnotes in the lead section, and to what extent do you recommend "parroting" info that appears later on? (i.e. taking the first sentence of various sections almost verbatim...Intros are the bane of my existence) Montanabw 05:54, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I have good luck with taking a sentence from most every paragraph, although it may not be the first sentence. Sometimes I'll chose a particularly juicy piece to put up top. Of course, most of my GAs have been medieval bishops, so juicy is relative. I usually write the lede shortly before i submit to GA. I only footnote direct quotations, and have only had one (out of ten) GA's request a footnote for anything but a quotation in the lede. Thick ledes get you brownie points, when I review. I think 7/8s of the review's I've done have had to have the lede bulked up. They aren't just the bane of your existence. Ealdgyth | Talk 05:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

There is an ApHC article already started. It had been wikilinked farther down the article, but I also wikilinked it when it's first mentioned in the history section. I'm not totally sure what information should be moved over there, but just putting it out there that it does exist. Also, since GA's seem to prohibit in-text photo links, is it allright that I go through and take them all out? Montana, I know you said on your talk page that there'd been an argument over them...but if we want GA? Dana boomer (talk) 13:59, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd think the external links to the ApHC affliates would be good over on the ApHC article. Maybe the ApHC site itself too, but that's not quite so big a deal. Also the details on the registration should probably go with the ApHC article, with a cross link to the breed article. Ealdgyth | Talk 14:59, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm up and going to look over and see what might need fact tags now... don't freak Dana, I'm known for being a pain about things needing fact tags. If it moves, I want it cited! Ealdgyth | Talk 14:46, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

More stuff:

• The "Spotted horse in America" subsection, the last sentence says "Each theory has some historical support." We can expand on that, I hope. A brief statement that about who supports each side and expanding on that wouldn't hurt pad the article out. As it is now it looks skimpy.
• If we do an influence section, definitely mention the POA being developed from the Appy. Isn't there an Appy Sport horse registry? And the AraAppaloosa?

More as I think of it. Ealdgyth | Talk 14:59, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Okies, found some articles and my whopping two books on the Appy. I'll try to get some of this stuff into the article this evening. Gotta go run errands first. Whee. Ealdgyth | Talk 20:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

And entered. Added some data. There is a GREAT shot of an Appy in a pre-WWI circus tent for the Barnun & Bailey folks that I'll try to scan in soon, as well as a great one of the same time frame in a Roman standing circus act. Ealdgyth | Talk 00:48, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Allright, all in-text photo links are gone (I think, unless I missed one, which is always possible). Also, the registration and external links sections have been fairly well pruned through removal of information to the ApHC article (and the two articles are cross linked). Tomorrow I'll probably work on extrapolating a uses section from all of the various uses mentioned, as well as taking as stab at the lead. Depends on how busy work is as far as how much of this I actually get done! Looking forward to seeing the pics, Ealdgyth... Dana boomer (talk) 03:07, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

errp! That means I actually have to do it, huh? I do think I've mined out my books. I do think we should mention the various classes in shows that the ApHC runs that aren't in other breed shows. As I recall they are the keyhole and the costume class, and some others? Ealdgyth | Talk 03:18, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Overall, I like what is happening. I am going to restore the national links, though, because we can hold the line on national organizations (there won't be many) but when there is just one group, then a) All the state clubs start adding their sites, which is an ongoing PITA, and b) the people in other countries start ranting at us for being "American-centric." So letting the clubs in other nations stay seems to, paradoxically, keep down the number of minor club links. I will source the Lewis and Clark quote directly (the actual source was the appy club page, but it IS in the journals, just have to find a set to verify off of), will maybe tweak some other things with appropriate edit summaries to explain what I'm up to. If you guys aren't thrilled, just tweak away. Oh, and on the breeds thing, that is going to be tricky, as you may have noticed, there is a debate over when something is a new "breed" and when it's a marketing ploy for someone's farm. (And why the AraAppaloosa exists is beyond me because ApHC lets in half-Arabs, but oh well...somebody got in a fight with somebody else and took all their marbles to start their own club, I guess.). However, the POA is a definite breed, we need to take a REAL careful look at the rest, which include the Ranger Horse, the Tiger Horse, the "Spanish Jennet Horse" (see that discussion), the Walkaloosa, and god knows what else. There is a part of me that really asks which of these need promotion and which the Appy people wish would just go away...oh yes, and the Nez Perce horse is mentioned in the article, in passing (why people want to cross an Akhal-Teke on an Appy is beyond me, isn't that like crossing a border collie on a coyote = smart AND evil?(grin) I mean, I KNOW someone who has an Appy-Mustang cross and if that horse had an opposable thumb it would take over the planet! ). Anyway, this one is looking like a fun project, though I dread that onslaught that comes with GA nominations... Montanabw 03:55, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Ranger horse is easy. They trace to Linden Tree and err.. Leopard that President Grant got. Arabians from the desert. That's where the Robards' horses got their spots, one of his foundation dams traced to them, I believe. I'll have to dig... it's somewhere. Whether it's actually sourceable to Misplaced Pages, is another story. It's part of the "QH history files" and very well may be an original letter or communication to me from someone. Ealdgyth | Talk 04:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Hm.. nope. Same source though. Joker B's dam was Blue Vitrol, who was out of Leopard who was out of a mare by Primero. That Primero daughter's dam was a mare by "Arab" who I think I figured out was "Barnum's Arab" and may possibly be the Leopard that was Grant's. Leopard's certainly quite the suggestive name anyway... Ealdgyth | Talk 04:29, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Ironically, given Arabian genetics, "Leopard" may have been either a sabino horse or a majorly fleabitten gray! LOL! (Somewhere I think I did read that he was a gray...) Montanabw 06:54, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

One was supposed to be a Barb, the other was an Arabian. I'm for bed! Ealdgyth | Talk 06:58, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, but Barbs didn't have the Leopard gene, either! (LOL). And actually, Leopard WAS an Arab, he has offspring in the AHA studbook (via Anazeh) Linden Tree, though, who knows?? Sources are all over the place on some of this stuff.

I've found a citation for the last fact tag in the article, so all of those are now gone!!!! I think we've covered all of Ealdgyth's suggestions, except maybe that the first two history sections and the appys in film section are still fairly short. Should we do more to expand these, or perhaps combine the history sections? I think we need to be careful about the film section, as it could easily turn into a listing of every B-list movie that's ever had a spotted horse mentioned, but at the moment it's just...short. Other than this, are we about ready for GA review? Dana boomer (talk) 18:33, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I took out some more lurking links in the text. We need to standardise the references Misplaced Pages:Citing sources and all that. Misplaced Pages:Citation templates is probably the easiest, as it formats the silly things for you. I think we really should expand those sections a bit. I've still got the pictures to scan too. Ealdgyth | Talk 20:05, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

GA pre-review

Starting a new header to make the discussion easier to follow. I really see no harm in a short popular culture section as is (maybe if some famous person owns appys like how William Shatner is into Saddlebreds, we could add that in, or if Appys are sports mascots, like the gray horses all named Traveler (mascot) are for for USC, etc. I agree we don't have to list every B western. But I will make it a subheading of "uses" because, really, that's what this is all about. (The uses section could be expanded a bit, I suppose, but it was 1am last night when I tweaked it and my enthusiasm was limited. I hate the ref template, I know eventually I have to care, but that hasn't stopped an article from going GA yet, even the horribly anal-retentive review I endured over at Arabian horse didn't hammer on the citation format (for FA it will matter, I suppose, can't hure to improve cites, but I don't see it as a priority).

Well, I just got hammered for it on one of mine, so I'll be glad to go through and clean them up shortly. The other thing we kinda have to do is really go through the prose with a fine tooth comb. No contractions, watch for "however" at the start of sentences, etc. etc. I also ran across a reference in one of the articles to some folks that contest the history of the breed? I don't have anything more than that, sorry. But was there some sort of controversy over Francis Haines' research work at one point? When I go through the references and get them standardized, I'll also check that the web sites are 'reliable'. Ealdgyth | Talk 22:21, 31 January 2008 (UTC)