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Biography: Science and Academia Start‑class

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Abortion Start‑class

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Photo

On Reardon's biography page on The Elliot Institute site, there is a photograph, described as a "media photo." Does this imply that it is a publicity photo intended for use in the media, and, could we thus use it to illustrate this article under such a fair use rationale? -Severa (!!!) 16:34, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't matter since we can't use publicity photos in the manner you proscribe. Check out the fair use pages Nil Einne 06:56, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

NZ Study

The article claimed that the authors of the NZ study had set out to disprove Reardon's findings. In fact none of the 2 reliable sources support this claim. One of them says that the researchers has expectations which turned out to be not true. But this is rather different from saying they set out to disprove anything. In fact, the references support the idea that their primary goal was to do high quality research in this area which they found lacking Nil Einne 06:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

RESPONSE The introduction and conclusion of Fergesson's paper includes a summary of Reardon's studies and Brenda Major's challenge that the findings would be explained away by preexisting psychological factors. In the paper, but more explicitly in his interviews, Fergusson indicates that it was his and this teams expectation that their analysis would produce results that would support Major's hypothesis rather than Reardon's. For example, in the cited interview Abortion increases mental health risk: study Fergusson states: "We were indeed surprised by the results. Our expectation was that we would find that young women who had abortions had higher rates, but that was due to selection factors, that is the background of young women predisposed them both to abortion and to mental health problems, and we found that that was not in fact the case."

Given Fergusson's insistance that his ideological stand was in line with Majors, being pro-choice, it is not an exaggeration to say that he hoped his data would settle the debate between Reardon and Major by "disproving" Reardon's hypothesis, or conversely, proving Major's hypothesis. The goal of "disproving" a wrong hypothesis is not biased, it's good science. The use of the word "disprove" does not diminish the integrity of Fergusson's intent to do "high quality research."

In any event, to clarify Fergusson's effort to test both Reardon and Major's hypotheses, I rephrased the sentence to read: "In response to the controversy and challenges presented by Reardon's research, a group of New Zealand researchers recently undertook a study to test Major's argument that psychological differences between women with a history of abortions and those with no history of abortion can be best explained by more pre-existing psychological disorders among the types of women most likely to undergo an abortion." It's a long sentence, but accurate and avoids the phrase "disprove"

Having fixed these objections, I'm removing the neutrality concern. (See also Response to NPOV)

POINT OF COMMENT

I think all of this business about the New Zealand article should be moved to a section titled New Zealand article. For instance, nobody knows who Fergusson is, and this is only tangentially related to the topic of a biography of David Reardon. This entire description of what did or did not happen with the New Zealand situation deserves to be removed from the main article and placed into a section. Dbackeberg 03:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

NPOV

I added the NPOV check because some of the sources used need to be scrutinsed carefully. One of them in particular afterabortion which is run by the Eliot Institute the organisation which David Reardon works for, seems highly dubious to me and someone needs to check it's usage in each instance is appropriate. It's probably fine for mentioning David's POV but shouldn't generally be used for anything else. I removed one usage where it was unneeded but I strongly suspect other some instances need to be removed too. For example, it's used to support the claim that the NZ team 'scolded' the APA. A better reference probably needs to be found for this or it should be removed Nil Einne 06:55, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

RESPONSE I clarified reference as per Nil Einne's request, pointing to the Washington Times article which quotes Fergusson's paper. The best citation is to Fergusson's article itself, but it is not readily available online without a subscription.

Regarding Nil's general objection to links to afterabortion.info, the pages cited all include citations to any research published in peer reviewed journals. Again, many of these journal articles are not readily available without subscription -- and are therefore difficult for the average WIKIPEDIA user to check. I see no reason why articles from the Elliot Institute website should be classified as more "dubious" than articles from the Washington Times, the Washington Monthly, or Brenda Major's commentary in CMAJ.

COUNTER The Washington Times links aren't working anymore. I can't tell if the language in the section near the Washington Times section is a direct quote of the article, a direct quote of the actual research, or the invention of the Misplaced Pages author who wrote this section. Regardless, the flow of the article is bad. If there is a need for a criticism, and a response, and a response to the response, these should be broken out of the main article and put into a section for easier reading. Dbackeberg 03:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Criticism

I added a criticism section at the bottom of the page, and put some criticisms into this area. The article as it stood was more of a treatise than a wikipedia article, and is in substantial need of revision. I also revised some strong affirmative language about the validity of a certain study that I feel wasn't actually claimed by the description of the study, and therefore the article didn't match what was said in the description of the study. I think the best thing for the article would be to add a biography section near the top of the page, ideally with a picture, and anything else about the subject's credential's beside the already-criticized Ph.D. in bioethics. Dbackeberg 04:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Cut Washington Times section

I cut this, due to NPOV and lack of citation:

The findings were so unexpected that in the conclusions section of their paper Fergusson's team criticized the American Psychological Association (APA) for its one sided reviews of abortion complications and specifically for the APA's failure to cite and discuss the findings of researchers like Reardon. Following media coverage of this criticism, the APA withdrew a position paper on abortion from their website and has created a new task force to report on the mental health effects of abortion. In response to Fergusson's criticisms, an APA spokesperson stated that Fergusson's research would have no effect on the APA's official stand on abortion because: "To pro-choice advocates, mental health effects are not relevant to the legal context of arguments to restrict access to abortion."

end-snip

The only sources for this are the Washington Times, and both articles cited here aren't available anymore. Even if a similar source could be found, the link title for these sections is entitled "commentary", and these comments are more opinion about what a study said than statistical figures drawn from the study, or at least from the abstract of the study. For instance, an opposing commentary would point out the study called for further study, that the sample size was only 500 women, that late teenage years are the times that many mental illnesses are first detected, and the big one: that association is not the same as correlation. So I cut that paragraph, as the important thing about the study was the numbers and the discovery of an association between abortion and mental illness among the patients in the study. Dbackeberg 04:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Removed unsupported arguments posed as criticisms

Criticisms should be found in published statements of experts in the field.

An editor added a number of his or her own novel arguments attacking the credibility of Reardon and Coleman which are not based in any referenced criticism of an expert...or even a journalist. As a reference work, this section of the article is supposed to reflect the criticisms of experts, such as Brenda Major, whose criticms are rightly summarized here. This is not the place for non-expert Misplaced Pages commentators to post "here's another agument against Reardon" arguments.

For example, following the notice that Reardon has a Ph.D. in biomedical ethics, the editor adds several sentences arguing that it is therefore misleading for Reardon to coauthor articles related to the psychology as if this implies he is a psychologists. Besides the fact that these articles include coauthors who are psychologists, it is very common for journal articles to be coauthored by parties whoh are not experts in the particular branch of knowledge covered by the journal. The most obvious example is that statisticians are coauthors of studies in every field of research even though they may have no expertise in medicine, chemistry, or psychology. Peer review journals do not judge the degrees or universities of contributors....the work must stand on its own merits in terms of the quality of data and methodology. This is why even Brenda Major has not attacked Reardon's credentials...only his perceived anti-abortion bias...because the issue of credentials are not a strong argument in the world of peer reviewed research.

Put another way...academics who read peer reviewed papers regularly know that the actual field of training and expertise of any author or coauthor should not be presumed just from the topic of the paper. That's a very rookie mistake. Unless there is evidence that Reardon has beed describing himself as a psychologist, the argument that some people may assume that he is a psychologist is as silly as the claim that any biomedical ethicist who publishes papers on euthanasia is likely to be perceived as an anesthesiolgist.

This or another editor also inserted a paragraph criticizing Coleman...who is not even a subject of this article except incidentally being "guilty by association" with Reardon as a coauthor. These arguments assert that since Coleman has served as an expert witness in legal cases she too is "biased" and must be motovated by a desire to restrict abortion rights. Again, this (1) has nothing to do with an article on Reardon and (2) is an uncited criticism which has not been made by experts in the field but only by a Misplaced Pages contributor. It also infers a whole lot about Coleman and her motivations and even about the uncited cases in which she was an expert. The fact that she probably was paid over $300 per hour as an expert may be sufficient motivation for anyone to testify about the facts as they see them. But that too is irrelevent.

Finally, in the same section I removed a paragraph about the APA's denial that post-abortion syndrome exists because this is not an article about post-abortion syndrome, where such a paragraph rightly belongs. Moreover, if you look at Reardon's articles, he avoids the term "post-abortion syndrome" and but prefers to speak more generally of specific symptoms rather than a set "syndrome" consisting of a complete set of symptoms. So this paragraph is also out of place and appears to be advocating a point of view since it is not even placed in context of a position that Reardon is known to advocate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.157.173.2 (talk • contribs) 22:27, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

Pro-Life Activist

Anonymous 131.216.41.16 has repeatedly inserted the following highly perjotative introductory paragraph to this biography.

David C Reardon, is a pro-life activist, who received his degree in biomedical ethics from Pacific Western University, an unaccredited correspondence school. Reardon is the director of the on-line Elliot Institute. The institute has no buildings or facilities.

Objections:

1. The term "pro-life activist" is a label, not a profession. Since the citations do document that Reardon describes himself as a "pro-life activist" it is inappropriate to apply this potentially perjotive term to him as if it were a fact rather than an opinion. For example the phrase "pro-life activist" implies that Reardon has been involved in sit-ins, ralleys, or at least political activism. But the record indicates no activism in the form of rallys or sit-ins and that the only legislation Reardon has advocated is legislation that would help women who are at higher risk of suffering complications to abortion or are at risk of being pressured into unwanted abortions. In his book Making Abortion Rare, he appears to argue on a woman centered rather than fetus centered argument against abortion, even proposing a redefinition of "anti-abortion" in the sense of "anti-this-unsafe-medical-procedure" as a separate argument about abortion as distinct from the pro-life and pro-choice arguments.

2. Criticism of the source of Reardon's degree is properly placed and more completely discussed elsewhere. The phrase "correspondence school" is perjotive and even "unaccredited" needs to be placed into a context that identifies accreditating sources. As noted in the corrected article, while Pacific Western University is not accredited by one of the members of the Council for Higher Education Accreditation it is a licensed university and the degrees it issues have proper legal standing. One can argue about the quality of his higher education, but not that he has a degree from an institution authorized to grant Ph.D.s. Also, as biographies do not normally begin with identifying the source of one's degree with a transtion into a discussion of the school's quality this is totally out of place. It is clearly just thrown in here to advance a POV intended to frontload the biography with criticsms of the subject.

3. The claim that "The institute has no buildings or facilities" is also perjotive and unsupported by the citation. First, this article is about Reardon, not the Elliot Institute. Second, the citation simply does not support the statement or address the facilities rented or owned by the Elliot Institute in any way. Thirdly, whether or not the Elliot Institute owns any buildings is irrelevant. But if one calls the office, they clearly have an office (possibly rented) and staff, and "facilities" in the form of equipment typical of offices.

4. All of these criticims also apply to 131.216.41.16's biased attempt to describe the Elliot Institute as nothing more than an "online" entity. That the Elliot Institute has a significant online presence does not mean that is the "only" form of it's functioning as it is clearly a legal entity incorporated in the state of Illinois.

In short, the edits of 131.216.41.16 do not contribute facts regarding the subject, David Reardon, but are POV efforts to dismiss him, his degree, and the Elliot Institute in the very first sentence of the biography. The valid issue surrounding his degree from a non-accredited institution is properly placed in the criticims section and should be presented in a non-perjotive fashion. Strider12 16:51, 9 November 2007

1. Pro-life activist is how Reardon describes himself on his website. Pro-life is, therefore, not pejorative.

2. The phrase "unaccredited correspondence school" is not pejorative if it is an accurate description of his academic credentials.

3. The claim that "The institute has no buildings or facilities" is accurate and supported by the citation to Reardon's website.

4. There is no bias if the description is accurate. The intent is to point out that the institute is not a research facility.

The descriptions are not criticisms. Therefore the descriptions belong in the first paragraph.--131.216.41.16 00:53, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

1. Untrue. Ues of the term "pro-life" on the Elliot Institute's website does not constitute a claim or admission that Reardon is a "pro-life activist." Give the exact citation and quote to support your claim that he describes himself as a "pro-life activist".

2. Untrue. Give a citation from Pacific Western University, or Reardon, describing it as an "unaccredited correspondence school" All schools involve correspondence...that's the nature of communication...and there are many accredited "correspondence" schools.

3. Untrue ... or at least undocumented by the page you cite. Give the citation to exact page and a quote from the website. You can't just point to a whole website and say the evidence is in there somewhere when the page you link to says nothing to the point you claim.

4. I don't even know what you mean by "it is not a research facility." Do you mean they don't have a chemical laboratory or neutrino accelerator? Clearly Reardon and the Elliot Institute have conducted research that has been published in peer reviewed medical journals, ergo they do research. If you cannot see the bias in your attacks on Reardon and the Elliot Institute, your extreme POV has muddled your ability to be objective. The fact that you keep posting these characterizing and belittling "corrections" without any factual support for them underscores that you are trying to advance an agenda. —Strider12 16:51, 12 November 2007

1. How interesting! The Elliot Institute website recently changed it's content - most of the information about abortion has been removed. However, a few of the pages on David Reardon's website have not changed, and these show his institute is a pro-life advocacy organization: http://www.afterabortion.info/mainpol.html and http://www.afterabortion.info/dole.htm. Also (and this is an aside), the Reardon's coalition members include the "Life Issues Institute" and the "Society of Catholic Social Scientists."

2. The New York Times confirms that Pacific Western is an unaccredited correspondence school. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9503E7D81638F932A0575BC0A962958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=print

3&4. The website for Reardon's Elliot Institute gives this information: "At this time, the coalition building project is being led by the Elliot Institute for Social Sciences Research is a 501(c)3 organization with offices in Springfield, IL and St. Charles, MO." This shows the Institute does not currently have a research facility. A research facility includes libraries (the kind with books), and/or scientific laboratories. http://www.elliotinstitute.org/coalition.htm--70.173.47.6 05:59, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Anonymous 131.216.41.16 continues to post a strongly POV opening paragraph to this biography and is ignoring the basic distinctions discussed in my first explanation of why his POV opening paragraph is inappropriate.

Firstly, this bio is about Reardon, not the Elliot Institute or Pacific Western University. If these affiliations are to be discussed, it should not be in the opening paragraph.

Secondly, an institution may have different views and purposes than an individual. You cannot conflate information about the Elloit Institute with a biography about Reardon but must say, for example, "Reardon works for the Elliot Institute which has expressed support for pro-life views." avoiding the perjotive phrase "pro-life activists", for example. It is not "Reardon's Institute."

A unbiased biography should not label someone an "activist" unless he or she labels himself that. That Reardon has pro-life views is not in dispute, the issue is whether this is the defining characteristic of this man. As noted elsewhere, this is certainly a label that he would deny as he has repeatedly asserted that his views are an attempt to define an ethic of medical proactice that respects both pro-woman and pro-life views. (See Making Abortion Rare) And as noted above, there is evidence that he has been a protestor -- which is what most people assocaite with an "activist." As a well published researcher, Reardon is at least obstensibly an academic involved in the discussion of ideas. One is free to argue otherwise, but that should be in the criticims section...not the first paragraph.

This anonymous editor should read the Misplaced Pages section http://en.wikipedia.org/NPOV#A_simple_formulation to see how it is proper to raise the assertion and discuss the claim that Reardon is a "pro-life activist." Following that principle is the best way to raise questions about Reardon's neutrality / authority on the abortion issue. Others have already followed this formulation rule as seen in the discussion of Brenda Major's criticisms of Reardon's work.

This anonymous editor's assertion above that since the Elliot Institute has offices in Springfield, IL and St. Charles, MO, "This shows the Institute does not currently have a research facility. A research facility includes libraries (the kind with books), and/or scientific laboratories" is patently absurd. That Reardon engages in research and has published research is indisputable -- look his studies up on PubMed! The editor's absurd definition of a "research facility" is nonsensical and has no place in this biography.

Finally, the Elliot Institute's website devoted to abortion issues, www.afterabortion.info, remains up and has hundreds of pages STILL devoted to abortion issues. While I haven't done a page by page comparison, all the pages I'm familiar with are still on the website. This critic's charge that the Elliot Institute has changed it's website is simply bizarre. Websites are constantly being changed, so what is your point!? And the author doesn't even site particular pages that have been changed. Pointing to pages that indicate that the Elliot Institute or even Reardon supports pro-life views still fails to justify labeling either as a "pro-life activist." A more neutral form would be that "Reardon supports a pro-life viewpoint" or "supports pro-life laws," etc. Still, these indications of his orientation on the abortion issue, which are prefectly fair, do not belong in the first paragraph. Strider12 20:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Elliot Institute is Explicitly Pro-Life

Hi, You do have a point. One should not be called an "activist" unless it is a self-imposed label. For that reason, I took out the word "activist." However, the fact that the Elliot Instititute (of which Reardon is the director and possibly sole employee - no others are listed) is a pro-life and anti-stem cell research foundation. This is a pertinent fact and integral to any discussion of Mr. Reardon. It should also be made clear at the beginning that Reardon does not have vetted academic credentials. (Yes, I'm aware that he has published in academic journals - but this is a separate issue from his academic credentials.) As demonstrated by the research done by New York Times reporters, the Elliot Institute exists because Reardon is pro-life. (Logical inference: if Elliot institute -> pro-life, if David Reardon -> pro-life)--131.216.41.16 22:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Reardon's Credentials

Glad to see a little progress. As you are concerned about the Ph.D., I also propose removing the designation from the first line, simply giving his name. That eliminates giving Reardon what is arguably undue credence in the first line of the biography. It avoids also your rather controversial assertion that you or anyone should be in charge of determining what constitutes "vetted academic credentials." In most universities, publications matter more than the source of one's degree. ("Publish or perish") Output is more critical than background. That is why I consider criticisms of where Reardon got his degree, or "degree" if you prefer, really a red herring. His work has been published in many top medical journals, therefore publishers and peer reviewers in the academic community consider his work to be up to par with all the other authors they accept.

Clearly the Pacific Western controversy is deserving discussion, but as provided by Misplaced Pages rules http://en.wikipedia.org/NPOV#A_simple_formulation it should only be discussed in a form in which you are discussing the Mooney article which raises the question and concern. Actually, unless you can find a source where Reardon discusses that he has a degree from Pacific Western University, Mooney's report may not even be correct... but let's go ahead and assume it is.

As pointed out in Misplaced Pages section you have a right to raise controversies but only by means of citing a verifiable source of the person raising the controversy.

Basic rule for editing: You should not insert your own arguments...you need to find some reasonably credible source outside Misplaced Pages who has raised these arguments (like Mooney) and cite his criticisms. I've done this in the appropriate section for criticisms.

This applies to your Elliot Institute inference. But since I know it is important to you, I also added the Elliot Institute argument you made and clarified the position on the cited page to the criticms section. But really this should also be referenced to some other publication of someone criticizing Reardon and the Elliot Institute for a pro-life bias and raising the issue that this anti-human engineering proposal is evidence of a pro-life bias.

Again, my main objection to your edits is that you are trying to front load three criticims into the first paragraph which are your arguments and inferences which fork into dual criticims of Reardon and Pacific Western and Reardon and the Elliot Institute. There is room for raising these issues, but they should be dealt with in the body of the article, not the first paragraph whcih should be limited to Reardon.

1. Pacific University was forced to shut down by the state of California. And, in fact, there are specific criteria for vetting someone's academic credentials. Simply because one publishes in a peer reviewed article does not mean that person has a PhD from an accredited university. That does not follow logicly. (Case in point: Jane Goodall She published peer reviewed articles without a PhD).

2. I don't see any mention of Reardon being a psychologist.

3. You are right not to reference "port-abortion syndrome." However, the APA also states that "research with diverse samples, different measures of response, and different times of assessment have come to similar conclusions. The time of greatest distress is likely to be before the abortion. Severe negative reactions after abortions are rare and can best be understood in the framework of coping with normal life stress."--131.216.41.16 (talk) 00:23, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Your new material asserts that Reardon claims to have had his degree from Pacific Western University but you have no citation from Reardon for this. The only claim for this is from Mooney.

The status of Pacific Western is unrelated to this biography as we have no idea when or if Reardon received his degree there.

Why should there be a reference to Reardon as a psychologist?

Your assertions and inferances are not contributing to a factual report and your attempt to front load the article with as many negatives as you can imagine is disruptive to the effort of those other editors, such as myself, who are attempting to create a NPOV article which includes appropriate places (two in this case!) for raising criticims that have been directed at Reardon. As stated above, as an editor it is your obligation to find people who have raised these criticims and to site THEM rather than to insert your own criticims presented as facts.

1. Please don't delete anything until it has been discussed here. I have included within the article citations for everything.

2. The citation for Reardon's claim to his degree comes from both The Washington Times as well as the New York Times. These have are recognized sources by the vast majority of Wiki editors.

3. I don't think that there should be a reference to Reardon as a psychologist. I don't see where the article does say that. Please point it out. We should edit that, certainly.

4. I am not making any inferences. I am also not making NPOV edits. --70.173.47.6 (talk) 03:18, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

2. These articles assert he has a degree from Pacific Western, but do not state that Reardon told them this was so. And if you believe it is so, it should not be stated as if this is just what "Reardon claims." You are inserting doubt to discredit...which is the whole problem with your edits...they are all geared to discredit Reardon in the first paragraph.

3. You are the one who wrote "::2. I don't see any mention of Reardon being a psychologist/" here in the discussion section... a few paragraphs above.

4. You bias is screaming out.

1. You have not made a convincing case that my edits are biased - or even in what way they are biased. I asserted above, "I am also not making NPOV edits. "

2. I see no where in the article where Reardon is referred to as being a "psychologist."

3. According to the , a fact is "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." Several journalists have reported that Reardon himself says he has earned a Ph.D. from Pacific Western University. Also, we have several sources that clearly point to the fact that Pacific Western is an unaccredited correspondence school that was closed as a "degree factory" by the state of Califnornia.--131.216.41.16 (talk) 04:15, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Here is a page about Reardon from on a Pro-Life forum. Several of the posters question his qualifications. Obviously these pro-life pages do not meet the standard for citation within the David Reardon article; however, it shows that even those with a seemingly pro-life "bias" question Reardon's qualifications. It also seems to point to the fact that David Reardon has been referring to himself as a Dr. in many pro-life forums (both in person and on-line). What "Laura" writes in her post is the interesting part: http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2007/07/weekend_reads_1.html)--131.216.41.16 (talk) 04:44, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

This is a forum that allows and publishes postings from people of any bias. There is no evidence at all that Laura has a pro-life bias...in fact if you track her down to her own blog you will see she favors abortion rights and attacks Reardon because he promotes views and evidence that disagree with her position.

Last, let's try to avoid a revert war by not removing factual, cited information without discussing it on the talk page first. --131.216.41.16 (talk) 19:10, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

P.S. "Laura" didn't give a link to a website she claims is her own. How were you able to track her down and determine she is "pro-choice"? My point earlier is that one does not have to be an "abortionist" to agree on the fact that Reardon does not have the Ph.D. he claims he does, or that the Elliot Institute does not have any facilities. And that just because one is critical of Reardon does not mean that one disagrees with the pro-life movement. These are separate issues.--131.216.41.16 (talk) 19:26, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

P.P.S. Just a point of clarification: A logical (valid) inference is not the same as your every day, run-of-the-mill inference. --131.216.41.16 (talk) 19:32, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Your introduction is biased, a rambling attack on the Elliot Institute and Pacific Western, and has been thoroughly discussed above and you continue to ignore my suggestions that these points should be confined to the sections relative to the criticims of Reardon and cited to sources other than your own inferences. I'm tired with arguing with you about it and will continue to revert the introduction to an unbaised format without further arguements with you. If you can't see the bias in your statements you are an ideologue who has lost all sense of objectivity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Strider12 (talk • contribs) 21:32, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Reardon claims to have received a Ph.D. from the unaccredited correspondence school, Pacific Western University which was forced to close by the state of California. Ref: New York Times, "California Trying to Close Worthless-Diploma Schools", ref: Is There a Post-Abortion Syndrome?, ref: "Research and Destroy"

Both of these statements are factual according to Misplaced Pages standards. The citations for them are the Elliot Institute website itself, the Washington Monthly, and The New York Times. Thank you for your rational understanding.

--131.216.41.16 (talk) 23:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Stop repeating your arguments and carefully read the sources you cite. Show me the link and give an exact quote from the Elliot Institute web site saying Reardon claims to have a degree form PWU.

Also, read carefully and report carefully what Mooney writes. Mooney does not report that "Reardon claims to have received a Ph.D..." etc. Mooney reports that Reardon does have a degree from PWU but he does so without any citation or confirmation as to where he got this information. He never says he interviewed Reardon and it is evident that he probably did not, but instead just read some articles by or about Reardon from which he formulated his attack piece. You're free to quote Mooney's attacks, as per Misplaced Pages's recommendations for raising controversy by quoting others, but you should not create your own attacks and you should closely track or quote exactly what Mooney said without elaborations which even Mooney might reject as over the top inferences.

Also, the New York Times article is from 1994. It does not mention Reardon, and you have no idea when Reardon received his degree from PWU, and an attempt to close PWU was apparantly rejected by the courts since it stayed in existence and just recently changed its name...see Pacific Western University. Perhaps after being investigated by the state, PWU improved its program to meet state standards and Reardon received a "good" degree, according to California, even if an unaccredited degree.

Stick to the facts relevent to Reardon. If you want to attack PWU, put your New York Times article on the PWU page. Strider12 (talk) 04:16, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Elliot Institute

Anon 131.216.41.16 claim that "the Elliot Institute has no buildings or facilities, and is not a research facililty" is unverfied and ludicrous. Why not just have an opening paragraph that reads: "David Reardon is a flim-flam artist who pretends to work with the Elliot Institute, which is a meaningless shell, and has somehow convinced dozens of peer reviewed journals to publish his nonsense." Strider12 (talk • contribs) 15:11, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

With regards to the "Elliot Institute" - the definition for "institute" is the building occupied by a society or organization for carrying on a particular work, as of a literary, scientific, or educational character. It is clear that the Elliot Institute does not fit that definition. On their own website at one point, they said that they "currently have no building." The current posting on the Elliot Institute website says they are trying to raise funds for a building. (Please see links above).--131.216.41.16 (talk) 19:10, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Your personal definition of an "Institute" is irrelevent as is your petty and unsupported statement that "The Elliot Institute has no buildings or facilities, and is not a research facililty." That it is looking for funding is also irrelevent to this biography -- and is typical of all institutions.

Look up the Misplaced Pages definiton for institute. Also, I have to laugh, I looked at your link to support your "they have no building" claim, http://www.elliotinstitute.org/coalition.htm, and see that you have no understanding of the term "coalition building" as used on that page. Ha Ha Ha! This page doesn't say thay have no buildings or offfices or libraries! It says they are working to build (verb) a coalition (noun) by inviting other groups and organizations to join the effort of banning human engineering and that they hope or intend that once this coalition is built to form a new coalition organization rather than have the Elliot Institute serve as the ongoing organizing force behind their effort. You cite this as supporting the idea that they are raising funds for a "Coaliton Building"! You're hilarious...and wrong as usual.Strider12 (talk) 18:43, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

1. It was not my personal definition of institute. It is the dictionary definition of institute. Again, my dictionary says, "the building occupied by a society or organization for carrying on a particular work, as of a literary, scientific, or educational character."
2. The "Elliot Institute" is not merely looking for funding; it is (or at least was) looking for funding to build a building. At one time, this page "http://www.elliotinstitute.org/coalition.htm" said the "Institution" was seeking money to build a building. Most of the site changed within the last month - and seems to be undergoing continual change. You'll note that the reference to that line was to the Elliot Institute webpage published before February 11. 2007. (Please don't be condescending to me - we can be respectful of eachother) Further, Mooney does write that the Elliot Institute has no buildings or facilities - so there you go.
3. Last, please stop removing these sentences that have been referenced and verified by several writers, and are, therefore, acceptable as facts on Misplaced Pages: David C Reardon, is the director of The Elliot Institute, a pro-life and anti-stem cell research foundation. ref: Elliot Institute Mirror Site, ref: ElliotInstitute.org, ref: The Washington Monthly
   --131.216.41.16 (talk) 23:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

You need a better dictionary. All of the following definitions of Institute are nouns (see http://www.answers.com/topic/institute):

1. Something instituted, especially an authoritative rule or precedent.

2. A digest of the principles or rudiments of a particular subject, especially a legal abstract.

3. An organization founded to promote a cause: a cancer research institute. (Maybe as anogther example, A POST-ABORTION RESEARCH INSTITUTE!)

4. An educational institution, especially one for the instruction of technical subjects.

5. The building or buildings housing such an institution.

6. A usually short, intensive workshop or seminar on a specific subject.

To argue that the Elliot Institue is not a "real institute" because it doesn't have (you claim without support) buildings lacks even minimum level of credibility. Besides, what does it matter what the Elliot Institute's real estate holdings are?

Your argument about buildings and your immediate attack on PWU actually come across as petty, silly, and loaded with a desire to immediately bias readers against Reardon with ad hominum and guilt by association attacks.

You are actually weakening your arguments in the way you present them. Don't try to front load the article with attacks, especially abbreviated ones that digress off onto attacks on PWU's credibility and the Elliot Institute.

Please stop distorting what should be a simple introduction which explains that Reardon has come to be of some note because of the studies he has published related to a controversial topic, abortion, which has resulted in additional controversy around Reardon himself. There is plenty of space in the body to present criticims of Reardon and the Elliot Institute by citing facts and sources of those who have raised these criticims. But even then, do so without your inferences--no matter how solid you think them to be. See Wiki policy on "no original research" http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:No_original_research which encompasses what you are doing when you say here's fact one, here's fact two, therefore this is my summary of the meaning of these facts (or in your case, allegations by third parties--such as Mooney).

I'm not your enemy. You can find proper ways to present the facts you feel are pertinent, but I won't stand by and let you distort the facts with inferences and deducations of your own or to front load the article with non sequiters.

Find someone to read what you are writing who is not quite as passionately hostile to Reardon who can help you moderate your approach.Strider12 (talk) 18:43, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

1. You are putting words in my mouth, and inferring things that aren't there. Please stop. I have never claimed, or written in the article that the Elliot Institute is not a "real institute," or that it is an inferior institute. What I wrote is that The Elliot Institute does not have a building and is not a research facility. In fact, I don't go any where near what Chris Moony wrote in the :

...Reardon founded his own quasi-academic think tank, the Elliot Institute for Social Sciences Research. At the time, Reardon had a background in electronic engineering; he's since acquired a Ph.D. in biomedical ethics from Pacific Western University, an unaccredited correspondence school offering no classroom instruction.

--131.216.41.16 (talk) 21:29, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of information from the Article

This discussion of your edits has taken far too much space on the general discussion page for this biography. Please direct any further comments to me to my talk link, as I have also sent you a response to your own talk link.Strider12 (talk) 15:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

My talk page is a wholly inappropriate place to discuss the David Reardon Article. I've broken up the above correspondence into more readable chucks (by adding section titles). Please remain engaged on this page rather than posting on my talk page. --131.216.41.16 (talk) 17:55, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Audio of Reardon

I just finished listening to the audio of Reardon's speech. He seems a genuinely compassionate man. It is worth listening to, and is located here: http://www.nprcouncil.org/radio/5drdavidreardon.ram . --131.216.41.16 (talk) 00:46, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Please stop deleting cited information from the article

1. Fact: "The Elliot Institute is a pro-life and anti-stem cell research organization." References:
   
   • New York Times Article
   • Washington monthly article
   • The Elliot Institute "Politics" page
   • Elliot Institute Mirror Site
   • Biography of David Reardon
2. Fact: David Reardon claims to have received a Ph.D. from the unaccredited correspondence school, Pacific Western University which was forced to close by the state of California. References:
   • Biography of David Reardon
   • Washington monthly article
   • The Elliot Institute "Politics" page
   • New York Times, "California Trying to Close Worthless-Diploma Schools"

Last, who Emily Balezon is related to does not belong in an article about David Reardon. If you want to make the case that what Balezon writes is incorrect, please do so on the talk pages. But it is misleading to imply that because Betty Friedan is Balezon's cousin, Balezon is an activist like Friedan was. This section should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.216.41.16 (talk) 21:56, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Edit war

"Pro-life" is the term by which the pro-life movement identifies itself so it isn't in any way pejorative — a pejorative term for "pro-life" would be "anti-choice." I understand that the term "activist" carries with it an implication of involvement in grassroots-level advocacy like vigils, demonstrations, or handing out leaflets, so perhaps a more general term like "advocate" would be appropriate. The fact that Reardon is pro-life is supported by statements he has made in the past, particularly during this interview, and I definitely think it is worth noting somewhere in the article. I'm just not certain where.

I think it is redundant to cover the issue of whether Pacific Western University is accredited or unaccredited in the introduction when it is already handled elsewhere in the article (see John Gray (U.S. author) for a similar example). -Severa (!!!) 22:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your excellent edits Severa. Very well done. I added back the information about Reardon's academic credentials later in the article. I believe it is acceptable because it is well sourced. --131.216.41.16 (talk) 22:40, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

There has been a lot of back-and-forth and it's hard to keep track of it all. A few edits unrelated to the dispute might have slipped through the cracks. I think we should all step back from editing for now so that we can begin to get a clear perspective of the issue as a whole. It's not a question of whether the information on Reardon's credentials and personal views should be covered — it's just a question of where, and how. We have our sources and now all we have to do is work out how we're going to fit everything together in the article. -Severa (!!!) 23:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, you've made quite a few more edits and indeed left some things out. How long should we wait to include them back? The following are my concerns:

1. It seems to me that the "Public Appearances" title does not adequately describe Reardon's involvement in the Pro-Life movement:

   According to the Elliot Institute website, Reardon "is a frequent guest on Christian radio and Christian television talk shows and has been a frequently invited speaker state and national conventions for crisis pregnancy centers and pro-life organizations" and "Dr. Reardon's three-pronged strategy for ending abortion by helping women has already been adopted by many pro-life organizations at the local, state, and national levels. It appears certain that the popularity of this new compassionate approach to the abortion conflict will continue to grow and become a permanent part of pro-life activities." David Reardon has also addressed the National Right to Life Committee convention in 1998, where he advocated the need to minister to women who have had, and that abortion leads to "Post Traumatic Stress Disorder."

2. The "Academic Criticisms" section should probably go directly under the "Abortion Studies" section
3. As you stated above, there are several things that have been left out:
   
   • Reardon's claims to his academic credentials
   • Reardon's beliefs about the abortion debate:
     

   Ex: he writes "Pro-lifers who say, ‘I don’t understand how anyone could have an abortion,’ are blind to how hurtful this statement can be,” Reardon writes on his Web site. “A more humble pro-life attitude would be to say, ‘Who am I to throw stones at others?'"
   

   and
   

   In regard to the political debate surrounding abortion, Reardon has argued that (1) the traditional pro-choice perspective on abortion ignores the long term impact of the abortion experience on women's lives and (2) the traditional pro-life perspective should be replaced by a "pro-woman/pro-life" approach which recognizes the authentic needs of both women and their unborn children. He describes his own position on abortion as being both "pro-life" (believing the unborn human fetus is deserving of protection) and "anti-abortion" (believing abortion hurts women).

--70.173.47.6 (talk) 03:48, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I didn't mean to suggest that we should avoid editing entirely — only that the rapid back-and-forth that has been going on between Strider12 and yourself over the past couple of days makes it hard to follow changes to the article and that we should try to slow things down. I think, if we work to address concerns one-by-one, then we'll arrive at a version which no one feels needs to be undone.

The "Pro-lifers who say..." sentence is included in the Emily Bazelon quotation under "Criticism in the press: The New York Times Magazine" and the "In regard to the political debate..." paragraph has been transplanted to "Studies on abortion." I've tried to stitch everything together thematically, and, as Reardon's studies have pertained to abortion, I felt the political debate paragraph would probably fit best there. I'll move the "According to the Elliot Institute website..." paragraph to the "Studies" section for the time being as well.

Having "Academic criticism" as a sub-section of "Studies on abortion" is a good idea and would help to tie things together even further. I'll dig through the diffs and try to locate the stuff related to credentials, which would probably fit under "Academic criticism," too.

Do you have any comments or suggestions on the organization of this article, Strider12?

-Severa (!!!) 04:44, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I would also like to add that within any explanation of the Elliot Institute, the fact that it is a pro-life advocacy organization needs to be made clear.

Also, the fact that Reardon has a Ph.D. from what is commonly termed a "degree mill" is not an "academic criticism." However, it is a valid criticism mentioned in at least two of our cited references. Therefore, I'm going to add it as a special section. --131.216.41.16 (talk) 19:26, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

It is a fact that the Elliot Institute is seeking to attract the interest and support of those who are "pro-life" with their efforts at pro-woman advocacy against, for example, coerced abortions and unsafe or unnecessary abortions. And clearly Reardon feels comfortable with both the labels pro-life and pro-woman. But it is also clear that he is arguing to pro-lifers that these two concerns belong together, and therefore he would likely object to being characterized as just "pro-life" since a major part of his argument in "Making Abortion Rare" is that pro-lifers need to be both pro-woman and pro-life, meaning they should recognize and be concerned about the harm abortion does to women.

That said, it is inappropriate to try to pigeon hole either the Elliot Institute or Reardon with the charge that they are a "pro-life advocacy" group. They have multiple interests, concerns, and "biases" and it is not fitting for ANON to force a label on them. Let the facts, fully and impartialy presented, speak for themselves.

But more importeantly, in regard to all of the studies are published in peer reviewed journals on which Reardon is a co-author (along with other Ph.D.'s and M.D.'s), we should assume that Reardon is reporting just the facts...in just the same way as other scientists (and reporters, and encyclopdia editors) routinely set aside their personal beliefs to report the facts that they find. Indeed, as a peer reviewer myself I respect that it is one of the key jobs a peer reviewer to make sure that only facts are reported and not biases. If in other contexts Reardon wants to express his personal views for example, his view that the association between abortion and depression is likely causal), he should be free to do so without his studies being dismissed out of hand as simply an expression of biased opinions.

It is noteworthy that American Psychological Association has clearly adopted as pro-choice position as a civil rights policy, and a spokesperson for the APA has stated that the research on abortion complications is irrelevent to it's political position on abortion as a civil right. Should we then conclude that all studies published by APA members are biased (as Anonymous suggests we should do with Reardon)?

I think criticims of Reardon's degree from Pacific Western should be limited to what is stated in Mooney's article, and referenced as such, and kept in the section related to Mooney's criticims. It should not put into a separate section at the top of the article just to front load the article with ANON's criticims and ANON's new research and expanded criticism of Pacific Western, which violates the "no new research" policy of Misplaced Pages. Let Mooney speak for himself and include a link to the PWU article on Misplaced Pages.

Finally, I was especially shocked last week to see how Anon's effort to discredit Reardon has turned into an attempt to "purge" any study in which he is a co-author from the post-abortion syndrome article.

To quote from Proposed clarification on who uses term PAS

In theory, I agree with you. However, the director of the Elliot Institute (David Reardon) is the author of a majority of the "studies" referenced in the wiki article. The question we should probably answer is - should we purge all references from the Elliot Institute and David Reardon?--131.216.41.16 00:03, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes why not? We can only use reliable, neutral sources here. Of course it might be different when we specifically say "pro-life organizations" or "proponents of PAS" claim that so and so are the symptoms. mirageinred 04:58, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Go for it. Though, I think we will have to be vigilant against Reardon studies sneaking back into the article. --131.216.41.16 18:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

In my view, openly discussing an effort to "purge" information from peer reviewed medical journals because one of the author's is pro-life (and therefore "biased" against the pro-choice POV of the editors) should itself be grounds for blocking these "editors" who are "viligent against Reardon studies sneaking back into the article."Strider12 (talk) 16:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Criticism of Reardon's credentials

Anonymous 131 continues to insert inferences and inappropriately cited material just for the sake of attacking Reardon. To whit:

David Reardon refers to himself as "David C. Reardon, Ph.D.", and says he received a Ph.D. from Pacific Western University. However, Pacific Western University was closed by the State of California for being a "worthless diploma school." Pacific Western did not provide on-line or in class instruction, and did not receive any accreditations.

1. Citation 5 does not refer to Pacific Western University. Nor does Mooney report that he ever interviewed Reardon.

2. The criticism is raised by Mooney and should be cited as one raised by Mooney.

3. The New York Times article describes an investigation and attempt to close, not that it was closed.

4. Misplaced Pages reports in a disputed article that Pacific Western University has been a licensed degree granting school in two states, California and Hawaii, and that the California school is still operating (and licensed to grant degrees) but is now operating under the name California Miramar University.

5. It is unknown when Reardon received his degree, whether before or after controversies arose in California leading to the investigations. Nor is there any evidence that he did not complete program work appropriate to his degree.

This is all a guilt by association argument. His research, published in peer reviewed journals, and in collaboration with a number of other Ph.D's and M.D.'s who may have done much or most of the research, stands on it's own merit.

It is fair to point out that Mooney has raised this criticism, but it is not appropriate -- and is a violation Misplaced Pages's "no new research" policy to try to insert additonal arguments against PWU into an article about Reardon in an effort to undermine Reardon. Mooney's allegations tell the story and it is a fact that Mooney has made these allegations.

Therefore I have put this section as follows:

In a Washington Monthly article criticizing studies published in peer reviewed journals by Christian conservatives, Chris Mooney reports that Reardon received a Ph.D. from Pacific Western University which Mooney describes as a "unaccredited correspondence school." (cite)

The link to Pacific Western University is sufficient to lead the reader to learn more about the PWU controversy if they desire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Strider12 (talk • contribs) 15:11, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Problematic issues

I've reverted a series of edits by User:Strider12 for the following reasons:

• Reardon is a pro-life advocate. His role as such is well-documented by reliable sources to be at least as notable as his role as a scientific researcher, and thus it needs to be mentioned in the lead. Per WP:LEAD, the lead should briefly summarize all notable aspects of the subject. To leave out Reardon's pro-life activism is to omit a notable aspect.
• The Boston Globe article is not an "opinion piece". It's newspaper reporting, in a respected paper with high editorial standards.
• The sourcing in general is way inappropriate. Most of the sources are to pro-life activist organizations. These are the inappropriate sources, not the Boston Globe. We need more reliable, third-party, independent sources like the Globe or NY Times, and less partisan sourcing.
• Reardon's books are at least as notable as his journal articles, and should be mentioned in the same section. There's no need to split them off.
• The quotes I've included from Reardon's books were not quote-mined. These were quotes that a reliable secondary source (PBS) chose as significant and representative.
• Please, please read WP:WEIGHT. Views need to be presented in proportion to, and in the context of, their acceptance by experts in the field. We cannot describe Reardon's views at length while ignoring the well-documented fact that his findings conflict with the majority of scientific evidence and opinion, or that his findings have been discounted by reliable expert panels because of methodological problems.
• The Annals of Internal Medicine piece does not reflect the personal opinions of David Grimes. It is a peer-reviewed article in one of the most respected medical journals in the world, summarizing the current state of medical knowledge on the topic, and attempting to spin or undermine the article's findings by citing priestsforlife.org is transparent and inappropriate.
• When we use reliable secondary sources, we can cite them without giving them their own section ("Boston Globe Article"). Otherwise the encyclopedia would be entirely unwieldy.

I hope that sheds some light on the specific issues behind my reversion. MastCell 06:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Disagree on all counts. All newspaper articles are the works of a journalist, columnist, who may or may not be successful in eliminating their own POV. All three of the media articles cited, including the Boston Globe, have no internal evidence to support the idea that the writers ever even interviewed Reardon. That they "characterize" Reardon as wanting to "impose strict bans on abortion" is their own interpretation of the matter. It is well known, and accepted, that journalists and editors will work for a "slant" in their stories that make them more compelling. You are free to report the slant, but do not charcterize it as "fact." You are naive if you think that PBS did not mine quotes for their own end, and once again are trying to claim that "a reliable second source" trumps everything which comes from "biased pro-life sources."

All of Reardon's studies cited in here are also peer reviewed articls, therefore Grimes' and Reardon's articles should be treated with equal weight. It is very appropriate to list Grime's credentials and to site transcripts from a federal case regarding his work as an abortion provider and abortion activist. That I linked to a pro-life site that has the document is not inappropriate, but feel free to replace it with a link to a federal court archive if you can find it. Since the whole field of abortion and mental health is very controversial topic and both sides will have opinions, and people like Fergusson (a pro-choice atheist who has done the best longitudinal study on this issue) are siding with Reardon rather than the abortion advocacy groups. It is inappropriate for you to decide which of those in this controversy is right and to hide attributions and criticisms for that side of the debate, and to argue that Reardon and anyone else who sides with him is "biased", out of touch with "the real experts" and to pretend that journalists at papers which regularly publish editorials in favor of abortion are "reliable" "neutral" sources, while every source that supports Reardon's views should be dismissed or treated with suspicion.

One of the weakness of the pro-abort's position, which continues to exist in this article, is that there is a lot of hand waving and ad hominum attacks on Reardon himself, but no discussion of the actual statistics he has published. When you read Majors' CMAJ, editorial for example, doesn't dispute the actual statistics reported by Reardon but is instead a long explanation about her worry that people might interpret these findings as a straight forward causal link rather than as an entirely incidental phenomena, as she does.

I'm reverting to a better version of the article. Please try not to delete any of the material I have added. Also, the full bibliography is appropriate and should not be remvoed. Feel free to insert new material in an appropropriate place, but purging material is inappropriate. And I will continue to insert appropriate material citing who said what and what their affiliations are.Strider12 19:36, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source. It looks to reliable secondary sources to determine which quotes are important, which viewpoints have what support, and so on. The Boston Globe and PBS are reliable secondary sources. Their interpretation of events will be given quite a bit of weight on Misplaced Pages as a result. It's useless to accuse them of "quote-mining", and would be more productive to come up with other, equally reliable secondary sources which reach different conclusions. I am indeed claiming, as you derisively put it, that material from reliable secondary sources trumps that from partisan pro-life webpages. Our policies on verifiability and reliable sources may shed some light on why I hold such a view.

Grimes' article is a review article, and hence a significantly higher level of source than a primary study. There are dozens of primary sources, including Reardon's articles. Review articles synthesize these studies into a coherent whole. A review published in Annals of Interal Medicine is a rock-solid source for current medical opinion - AIM is one of the top medical journals in the world, and the authors' summary of evidence was passed through the journal's editors and peer reviewers. Individual primary articles from Reardon do not outweigh a literature review in Annals, in terms of accurately depicting the opinions of experts in the field.

All of your language is inflected with oppositional terms. Fergusson is not "siding" with Reardon. He's reporting his findings - in this case, they are closer to Reardon's than the APA's. In another case, he found that young women who had abortions had significantly better psychosocial outcomes than those who carried their pregnancies to term (PMID 17355376). But I don't see you repeatedly inserting text on how he "strongly criticized" Reardon's findings there. Fergusson is a researcher, not a partisan figure, though you're attempting to appropriate him as one.

Numerous criticisms of Reardon's methodology have been published. Also, criticisms of researchers' credentials and conflicts of interest are not necessarily "ad hominem handwaving". But there has also been real, notable criticism of his methodology. MastCell 21:21, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Give me a listing of the peer reviewed articles which specify the "numerous criticisms of Reardon's methodology" other than Brenda Major CMJ article. All the rest are letters to the editor (which are not peer reviewed for content, such as the BMJ" or from reporters who never interviewed Reardon and have no expertise in research methodology in general or post-abortion research specifically. Most of the criticims are ad hominum or general dismissals. Also, please give an exact quote of Grimes discussing Reardon's studies (as the cite given does not appear to suggest that Grimes--an obstetrisian--conducted a lit review of mental health studies or Reardon in particular, but instead appeared to simply reiterate the standard claim without addressing the research published since 2000.

Your position that one should ignore primary sources and instead quote only from "reliable secondary sources" --- combined with your provision that all sources from those with a pro-life view are "unreliable" (such as court transcripts available from Priests for Life" --- is simply unsupported by any Misplaced Pages policy.

Regarding Fergusson's second study, if you read the study, not just the abstract, you will better understand the meaning of what is said in the abstract: "Adjustment for confounding factors indicated that most of these differences were explained by family, social and educational characteristics that were present prior to pregnancy." In other words, all of the possible benefits turn out to be more related to factors other than abortion. So your statement "he found that young women who had abortions had significantly better psychosocial outcomes than those who carried their pregnancies to term" is a misrepresentation -- a common problem. What you CAN properly say is that he found that "even after adjustment for confounding factors, young women who had abortions had higher levels of subsequent educational achievement than those who became pregnant but did not have abortions." In other words, continued education was the only postive factor significantly associated with abortion. But even that positive finding is unlikely to "chalk one up for abortion" since those who had abortions were just more likely to finish high school or college compared to those who had their babies and took time off from school to be with their children. This is NOT the same as saying they had "significantly better psychosocial outcomes" -- but it is the type of overgeneralization typical of Russo, Major, and Stotland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Strider12 (talk • contribs) 22:52, 3 December 2007 (UTC) ] 22:27, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not interested in arguing the topic with you in this forum, nor am I trying to "chalk one up" for anyone. I read the entire Fergusson study, and you are once again cherry-picking to support your conclusion. The authors concluded in the abstract that "Abortion may mitigate some effects of early unplanned pregnancy." Specifically, "Our results clearly suggest that having an abortion mitigated the educational disadvantage associated with early pregnancy."

Your constant harping on "the reporters didn't interview Reardon, so it's not a reliable source" is ridiculous. At least in the case of the PBS piece, Reardon refused numerous requests to be interviewed.

Priestsforlife is not a reliable source. If you're unclear on that, go to the reliable sources noticeboard. I do not advocate "ignoring" primary sources (that's a strawman argument) - I just don't like seeing them spun and cherry-picked to further an editor's original interpretation of the data.

Grimes stated, in a review article in Annals of Internal Medicine, that there is no convincing evidence that a "post-abortion syndrome" exists. That is as simple and authoritative a statement of medical consensus as you can get, and your original criticisms of it do not undermine its weight as a source here. MastCell 23:39, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, they found educational advantages...only...so you should report in the article ONLY educational advantages and not misrepresent broader mental health benefits which they reported were NOT statistically attributable to abortion.

The fact that these reporters haven't interviewed Reardon, which I haven't even tried to put into the article, is clearly pertinent to how the article should be presented as it underscores that their characterizations of his positions are not his own self description but are their characterizations...and should therefore be attributed to them.

Grimes statement is his own, and no more authoratitive then any other statement in a peer reviewed journal. And the article isn't even primarily about mental health nor does it pretend to be a complete review (such as the APA task force is now undertaking). Nor was the article commissioned by Annals, nor should it be suggested that they "stand behind" it as the last word, nor does it represent the official position of any expert body other than Grimes and his co-author. The article you cite is just a overview for internists from an aging abortionist trying to encourage other doctors to join the club. Of course he will say there are no psychiatric problems, it's what the abortion industry has been saying for thirty years, but that doesn't make it a fact .... nor even the opinion of the majority of physicians, who since most have not studied the issue or the recent glut of studies since 20000, really isn't worth much anyway. I'll grant that the opinion of the expected new APA task force report will at least have the merit of being informed by a review of the literature.

This is a complex and controversial issue. Why do you feel a need to purge my clarifications of who says what, unless it is because you are trying to make the opinions of the "experts" you prefer sound like objective facts?

Is your case so weak that you can't just accept the importance of attributing generalizations about Reardon or post-abortion mental health to the people making them? (Our dispute about referencing the statement to the Boston Globe reporter, being another example.) Why resist what are clearly appropriate clarifications about who says this about Reardon and who says what about the issue of abortion maladjustments? I don't take out any of the points of controversy you are trying to insert, I'm just attributing them to who said them.Strider12 19:27, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

OK. Every statement I've inserted is attributed to exactly who said it. That's what the little footnotes are for. As to "objectivity", I see an invited, comprehensive review published in Annals of Internal Medicine, one of the handful of most respected medical journals in the world. Whereas you see "an aging abortionist trying to encourage other doctors to join the club", who's simply repeating "what the abortion industry has been saying for thirty years." Your personal views about the evidence are what they are, but they don't override Misplaced Pages's policies on undue weight and reliable sourcing. I'm sorry. MastCell 23:39, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

http://www.afterabortion.org is not a reliable source - it is not peer-reviewed (it doesn't even say who runs it) and has no reputation for fact checking. Furthermore, Elliot Institute publications should be treated as self-published or vanity sources. Reardon started the institute (though somehow the article fails to mention this) and it has no independent review system. If material is cited in a reliable and verifiable source it should be included in proportion to weight. As Reardon does not constitute an expert (he has no legitimacy in the scientific community), and his research has been widely dismissed, his views are that of the fringe. There is no established evidence proving PAS, but there is a large body of respected literature that agrees, PAS is a myth promoted for pro-life agendas. It is not unreasonable to cite scientific consensus as fact, particularly when it is documented. Phyesalis (talk) 05:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

See below. Reardon is an expert in the field as verified by numerous peer reviewed journals. Your statement that "he has no legitimacy in the scientific community" is simply false. At best you can cite a number of scientists--Major, Russo and Stotland--who are all on record as opposing abortion regulations arguing that he overstates his evidence and is working to stop abortion. That does not consitute the views of "the scientific community" much less "scientific consensus." See the editors of the CMAJ's editorial. Consider also that Reardon has co-authored his studies with a half dozen or more other Ph.D.'s and M.D.'s who are part of the scientific community. Together with dozens of peer reviewers who have examined his work, they affirm that he is an expert. Your arguments regarding PAS have no place here as there are no cites that Reardon even advocates for that definition.

Afterabortion.org material is the official website for the Elliot Institute, run by Reardon, and is a reputable source precisely because Misplaced Pages policy also provides that:

Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.

It is certainly fair, however, to require that the TEXT of the article should include mention that what is presented is from Reardon or the Elliot Institute (if not attributed to Reardon on the web page) since they are both accused of bias. Editors should not PURGE information from experts, like Reardon, simply because others have accused them of bias. Simply make sure that the information on both sides is attributed (in the text, not just the foontnotes) to the persons making the charges. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Strider12 (talk • contribs) 14:05, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

A more relevant part of the WP:V policy here is WP:SELFPUB, which covers the specific issue of "Self-published and questionable sources in articles about themselves." Specifically, policy suggests we should avoid using such material in cases where it is contentious, unduly self-serving, involves claims about third parties. Most importantly, it is mandatory that the article is not based primarily on such self-published sources. The article, like all articles, should be based primarily on published, reliable secondary sources. Incidentally, I'm going to stop engaging with you if you're unable to stop calling this a "purge" (also, stop shouting in all caps please). You seem determined to remove all mention of Reardon's pro-life advocacy from the lead, despite the fact that it's extremely well-documented, relevant, and uncontroversial. Yet I somehow manage not to accuse you of "PURGING" material you find inconvenient. I'm just asking you, below, to explain why you think it's not relevant to the lead, using WP:LEAD as a starting point. MastCell 17:16, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Reliable Sources -- Misplaced Pages Policy re Reardon Studies

Template:RFC errorTemplate:RFC error Misplaced Pages policy on reliable sources states that

Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science. Material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used in these areas, particularly if they are respected mainstream publications. The appropriateness of any source always depends on the context. Where there is disagreement between sources, their views should be clearly attributed in the text.

1. From this it follows that all of the studies published in peer reviewed journals in which Reardon is lead or co-author should be treated as reliable sources and should be included in any "weighting of viewpoints." Editors in the purging campaign who have decided to eliminate peer reviewed articles simply because they are associated with Reardon are simply not justified in treating these works as unreliable.

2. As Reardon is clearly an established expert in this field, having published dozens of studies in peer reviewed journals, it follows that the material he publishes through the Elliot Institute must also be accepted as reliable (at least in reporting a view of some experts) since Misplaced Pages policy also provides that:

Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.

In other words, numerous third-party peer reviewed journals (including both editors and reviewers) have already verified the reliability of Reardon as a researcher and have accepted him as an expert in his field. In addition, Reardon is one of many scientists who are publishing articles showing links between abortion and mental health problems (including, Coleman, Fergusson, Gissler, Rue, Shuping and others). As an established expert in this field, material published by the Elliot Institute, of which he is the director, is also "relevent," especially when attributed to him.

3. Misplaced Pages policy also states that "Where there is disagreement between sources, their views should be clearly attributed in the text." In other words, the text, not just the footnote, should attribute who says what. This is especially important given the contentious nature of post-abortion issues and the fact that the "sources" (those on either side of this debate) appear to disagree on nearly everything. Both sides accuse the individual researchers and reporters covering this issue of bias. Indeed, we editors are accusing each other of POV bias in the posts for this article. Since we cannot eliminate everyone's bias, we should carefully identify who is saying what so any bias, generalization, or inference is properly attributed to the source.

Thus, we should accept as a foregone conclusion that everyone who cares enough about this issue to write about it has a POV which colors their word choices and judgments regarding the evidence for or against the "post-abortion syndrome" theory.

Therefore, in keeping with Misplaced Pages policy, the editors of this article should be careful to ATTRIBUTE IN THE TEXT any generalizations about the research or individuals (such as media characterizations of Reardon) to the individual authors who have published these views. Editors should not declare as a "fact" that research showing higher rates of psychiatric admissions following abortion (Reardon, CMAJ) are wrong. Good editors will instead meticulously cite and name the person who criticizes a particular study (for example, Major CMAJ) and QUOTE her comments while carefully avoiding any embellishment or inferences. Strider12 (talk) 16:28, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Strider, can we have a clear and concise statement of specific changes you'd like to see in the article, to make it easier on anyone stopping by to render an opinion? MastCell 17:03, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Specific issues - briefly

OK, before the article ends up protected - I think the only way this will get worked out is if we take issues one at a time. It's impossible to have a dialog by alternating 40kb posts addressing dozens of issues at a time, accompanied by edits which insert many disputed edits simultaneously. Let's start with the lead. Strider12 has continually removed mention from the lead that Reardon is a pro-life adovcate in favor of strict barriers to abortion. I believe this is well-documented in reliable sources, including by Reardon himself, and an essential and notable part of his biography, without which any contextualization is incomplete. His role as an advocate is at least as notable as his role as a researcher, and this is documented by reliable sources. WP:LEAD indicates that all notable sapects of the subject should be covered in the lead. Could Strider12 explain why s/he feels the lead should not make mention of Reardon's pro-life advocacy? MastCell 17:08, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Introduction

Okay. First, I think it unnecessary to load the first paragraph with "context" regarding how others perceive his pro-life and political views. These can and should be dealt with more thoroughly in the main body. of the article. While there have been improvements on this front, see here as an example of front loading the article with bias, unverified inferences, guilt by association and other nonsense.

But if there is a consensus that his political views need to be stated in the very first paragraph, it should be contextualized either by the simple expedient of attributing this characterization to a person making the generalization or drawing from Reardon own sources regarding how he has characterized his position, which is more complex than what is typically considered the "pro-life" advocacy view. (Indeed, he has been criticized by several pro-life publications for his "too pro-woman" views.)

For reference, here is the current lead:

David C. Reardon, director of the Elliot Institute, is a biomedical ethicist specializing in research and education related to the effects of abortion on women, as well as a pro-life advocate in favor of strict barriers to abortion.

Alternate #1, which clarifies that Kranish is characterizing Reardon's position:

David C. Reardon, director of the Elliot Institute, is a biomedical ethicist specializing in research and education related to the effects of abortion on women. He has been described by a reporter for the Boston Globe as a "pro-life advocate" in favor of "strict barriers to abortion."

Alternate #2, which is, as best as I can read it, how Reardon characterizes his position:

David C. Reardon, director of the Elliot Institute, is a biomedical ethicist specializing in research and education related to the effects of abortion on women. He is an advocate of what he calls a new "pro-woman/pro-life" approach to the abortion issue. He argues this approach offers "common ground" between moderate pro-choice and pro-life proponents who should be able to agree that women should not be coerced into "unwanted abortions" and that all abortions should be as safe as medically possible. Toward this "common ground" he advocates for laws that would hold abortion doctors "properly liable" to screen for statistically validated risk factors, including coercion, which identify which women are most likely to experience severe psychiatric reactions to abortion. He believes that "proper screening" will dramatically reduce abortion rates by preventing "unwanted" and "contraindicated abortions."

Alternate #3: Briefer--but still unlikely to satisfy those who want to pigeon hole Reardon right up front:

David C. Reardon, director of the Elliot Institute, is a biomedical ethicist specializing in research and education related to the effects of abortion on women. He is an advocate of what he calls "pro-woman/pro-life" approach to the abortion issue(ref Making Abortion Rare) and believes that abortion doctors should be held "properly liable" to screen for coercion and other risk factors which may indicate that abortion is "contraindicated." (ref, Making Abortion Rare and The duty to screen, JCLHP)

--Strider12 (talk) 00:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Reardon's views are accurately summarized by the term "pro-life"; subtler points that distinguish him from other pro-life advocates can be made later in the article. No, it is not necessary to say that "a reporter from the Boston Globe called him pro-life." A reliable source (actually, many reliable sources) call him pro-life, and he seems to self-apply the term as well. I could live with saying that "He is an advocate of what he calls a "pro-woman/pro-life" approach to the abortion debate, and advocates strict barriers to abortion." How about that? It specifies his self-identification and covers the relevant issues. We should cite the Boston Globe or some other reliable independent source, though, rather than citing Reardon at every turn (per WP:SELFPUB). I'm not sure what you're trying to imply by "those who want to pigeonhole Reardon" - the purpose of a good lead is to summarize its subject. I'm trying to summarize him. MastCell 03:42, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

The Boston Globe article is a brief article. It is not as if the author had researched and written a 300 page biography or Reardon. For all we know it was written in a day, and there is no evidence he ever even interviewed Reardon, much less friends and associates. So really, the only reliable information we have are the works or Reardon himself, which is why, to fairly represent his views, we should try to find representative quotes and let him speak for himself. At least that is how I was taught to write accurately about other people's views in my college. If you are trying to summarize a person in a paragraph or two (normally a difficult task), I hope you have read at least all of his books and a good couple dozens of his articles...otherwise you are not summarizing, you are characterizing based on some critical articles written by sources which were obviously out to discredit his research....which of course groups like NAF and Planned Parenthood are keen to do. That these criticisms have been raised is fair game, but only if cited in the TEXT to the source:"Where there is disagreement between sources, their views should be clearly attributed in the text." We've been through this before. Strider12 (talk) 06:09, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Policy for lead suggests that " Contentious material about living persons must be cited every time, regardless of the level of generality." That he advocates a "pro-woman/pro-life" approach as you word it is acceptable and notable because it invites the reader to learn how and why he distinguishes this from a pro-life approach.

It is unacceptable however, to characterize him as "advocating strict barriers to abortion" as that is a reporter's characterization, not Reardon's description. He would deny that he is erecting any barriers to abortion, but is instead simply advocating that doctors should be held properly liable for injuries caused by abortion. Making Abortion Rare does not advocate a ban or barriers. The claim he "advocates strict barriers" pigeon holes him as an anti-abortion extremist rather than an advocate for listening to women hurt by abortion, which is how he portrays himself, and as I and many post-abortive women see him. --Strider12 (talk) 03:53, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

MastCell--you are apparantly an expert on Reardon, so please provide the quote from Reardon in which he "self-identifies as an adovcate of 'strict barriers to abortion.'" As noted above, your continued insertion of this without attribution to the writer who makes this assertion is in violation of Wikipeida policy. As shown in the quotes I've provided, from him, he characterizes his own position much differently.Strider12 (talk) 06:09, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

He claims it on his website, and in downloadable speeches. It is clear he considers himself "pro-life." You cannot continue to dispute this. We've shown you the citations several times over.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 23:44, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

He claims he is pro-life and pro-woman, as I have frequently documented. Reporting only half of his self-description is a distortion. It is the distortion I dispute. Secondly, that he "favors strict barriers to abortion" is the characterization of a reporter. I have documented, and continue to have purged, his more nuanced postion which is to provide right to redress for women injured by abortion. Whether or not that constitute a "strict barrier to abortion" may be debated, but it is clearly not his own characterization. Once again, you (singular, since I believe IronAngelAlice, MastCell and Anon 131 are all the same person using multiple logins to create a false "consensus") cannot simply take a couple reporter's accounts and treat them as the final authorative word nor ignore Misplaced Pages policy that such reporter's characterizations of a living person should be attributed, in the text, to the reporter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Strider12 (talk • contribs) 19:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I had no idea that being "pro-life" also carries a subtext of being "anti-woman." Also, I haven't "purged" anything. Cut it out.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 22:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Please Stop Vandalism of Bibliography and Quotes Describing Subject's Real Views

1. This is a biography of a living person who is a researcher and writer. The complete bibliography of this person is relevent and verifiable. Deleting the bibliography of his research is a blatent attempt to hide his achievements so that criticisms of his work will not seem so petty. PLEASE STOP THE VANDALISM.

2. Characterizations and criticisms of a living person should ALWAYS be attributed IN THE TEXT to the cited person and source making the characterization and criticism so that it is not portrayed as a "fact."

3. Deleting properly cited quotes from the subject, Reardon, is vandalism, especially when these are deleted to hide or deemphasize his position in favor of promoting the criticisms of his critics.

4. The "no original research policy" means it is inappropriate to go beyond the information that the critics give and adding in new information, from editors, that says if this and that then this too. An example in some versions of this article is NEW RESEARCH into Pacific Western University, citing sources that say nothing of Reardon but are only about the university, so as to demean the university and by implication to demean Reardon. It is fair to cite that the reporters claim he received his degree from, as quoted Pacific Western which they describe as "unaccredited universty", but beyond that it is new research to dig up dirt on PWU to put into an article about Reardon.

5. It is permissible to add material and try to blend it with existing material to improve the article. Deleting verifiable quotes and bibliographical information about the subject in order to promote the POV that he is a biased, uncaring, pro-life zealot with no real expertise is vandalism and will be reported.

Add if you wish. Reorganize if you feel it will strengthen the article. But do not vandalize the contributions of other editors by deleting factual information. Strider12 (talk) 05:38, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

IronAngel's revert today...eliminating much new material...claims it is a revert to "previously agreed upon text." Obviously, since this is a disputed article, it is not agreed upon text.--Strider12 (talk) 23:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I didn't revert any new material that was appropriate. I reverted to the text that was agreed upon by several editors. Strider, you are consistently changing the tenor of the text in this article against the wishes of the other editors.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 23:43, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Strider12, please read WP:VANDAL, particularly the section on What vandalism is not. MastCell 23:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no wikipedia policy that POV pushing of editors should be allowed to define and insist on a "tenor of the text" which violates NPOV. The tenor of this text is clearly to diminish and attack a living person. Look where the attack on his degree is, right up front, instead of where it belongs as part of the commentary of Mooney. The tenor of this article is simply to argue that Reardon is uneducated, biased, and unrealiable. None of his actual research findings are allowed. And to further this agenda, POV pushers are trying to hide the verfiable fact that his research has been accepted and published in numerous journals and to conceal from readers the breadth of his work. Clearly, a bilbliography of a person's published works properly belongs in a biography. Purging a bibliography is misrepresentation and vandalism. --Strider12 (talk) 05:11, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Again, if you're able to comment in a more informed and civil manner, I'll be happy to respond. MastCell 07:22, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

It is civil and informed to remind people that deletion of core material is vandalism. If a holocaust denier deleted a list of death camps, that would be vandalism. Deleting the bibliography of a researcher is vandalism. Is MastCell claiming that he deleted it? If not, perhaps MastCell should help remind others not to delete verifiable material. --Strider12 (talk) 16:54, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

MastCell's asserting that full bibliographies are not "generally" listed for other researchers points to a flaw in other biographies, not a rule which justifies deleting the list from this bibliography.--Strider12 (talk) 17:03, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

MastCell is correct. However, in the spirit of consensus, a small bibliography is probably okay. It is not necessary to list every article Reardon has written. --IronAngelAlice (talk) 17:45, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Strider. Removing the bibliography from Reardon only serves to diminish him. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 06:57, 25 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

If Strider12 is unable to grasp the principles set out in WP:VANDAL, then he really shouldn't employ the term. Removing the bibliography does not in any way "diminish" Reardon. His works are extensively cited in the article, which also notes that he has published peer-reviewed literature, as if this were a major accomplishment rather than a bare minimum for anyone calling themselves a researcher. A bibliography citing every last article and letter-to-the-editor Reardon has ever published is simply overkill. It's way out of line with standard practice on Misplaced Pages. A listing of books he's written is much more appropriate and in line with what exists in other biographies on Misplaced Pages. MastCell 07:05, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

But editors here were removing even IN-LINE cites to peer-reviewed research conducted by Reardon. You cannot justify that under Misplaced Pages Policy. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 03:11, 26 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Of course you can - in-line citations to peer-reviewed literature are just as capable of violating WP:NPOV, WP:WEIGHT, WP:NOR, or merely being irrelevant, as any other content. The idea that there's something mystical about peer-reviewed articles that means they can never be removed from an article under any circumstances is (apparently infectious) nonsense. MastCell 05:57, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Replaced Material that was wrongly deleted.

I replaced material that was deleted without cause from this article. The article as currently reads contains both pro and con information on Reardon, just as it should be. It violates POV to remove the citable peer-reviewed contributions that Reardon has made, and the other material which provides NPOV to the article. Misplaced Pages is not a place for writing propaganda and hit pieces. We should not artificially prop up Reardon, nor should we diminish him. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 07:00, 25 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

A laundry list of every article and letter Reardon has authored does not bolster WP:NPOV. Nor have the citations been "removed", as they are cited throughout the article as they should be. As to the bad-faith accusations of writing "propaganda pieces", you may want to take a clearer look at what's going on here. MastCell 07:07, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Mastcell, you are the one assuming bad faith, not I. The article as you have just reverted it reads as a POV hit piece, not a NPOV wikipedia article. Please do not delete my content. I am trying to bring balance and NPOV to the article. Not prop Reardon up. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 07:13, 25 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

If you think the article is a "hit piece" and want to bring balance to it, then adding a list of Reardon's publications, in contravention of standard Misplaced Pages practice, is hardly going to address the problem. What, specifically, do you feel is a "hit piece" here? Surely not every biography which fails to recapitulate PubMed word-for-word is a "hit piece"? MastCell 07:15, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

MastCell, your edits did not only remove the biblography, but also references to Reardon's peer-reviewed published works, removal of a separate study conducted by Dr. Fergusson, and other material that was "helpful" to Reardon. The edits mysteriously left in information that painted Reardon in a more negative light. Why? You seem to be reasonable. So answer me this, why would we remove any information that even indirectly makes Reardon look a little bit better, and keep information that paints him in a negative light? Is that POV? Or NPOV? I hope my new edits are more suitable to consensus. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 07:48, 25 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

No references were removed. The references section is in tact. What we have tried to do on this Reardon article is to replace old scientific data and consensus with the most up-to-date scientific data and consensus. Part of what may seem to be information that puts Reardon in a poor light is a reflection of the current scientific consensus and data. However, Reardon has also misrepresented his credentials, and has been subject to academic criticism for his methods. These things, unfortunately, are pertinent to any article about Reardon.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 08:42, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

You have just reverted my edits without cause. I will ask you once, and once only not to revert my edits again. There is NOT a consensus as to how the article will go from here. My edits are the starting point. You cannot just "revert to previously agreed upon text" as there was no agreement to begin with. PLEASE DO NOT REVERT MY EDITS AGAIN. Your contentions are completely without merit. The edits that I made in no way artificially propped up Reardon, nor did they include anything that wasn't cited. You are deleting material that is pertinent and cited for absolutely no cause. You seem to want to remove anything that even indirectly is "helpful" to Reardon and paint him in as negative a light has possible. This is a NPOV VIOLATION. We need balance and NPOV to this article. My edits included both negative AND Positive information on Reardon. You have no right to remove the positive edits and inject POV. No right whatsoever. DO NOT DO IT AGAIN. You have already been warned. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 13:48, 25 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

I'm sorry, but you cannot introduce a series of disputed edits and then declare them to be the "starting point" for further improvement. I have no interest in removing material "helpful" to Reardon; however, there remain some very serious and unresolved issues of WP:WEIGHT and potentially some misunderstanding about WP:NPOV. Instead of rhetoric about "purging", "smearing", "no right to remove material", etc, how about one concrete sentence, section, etc which you'd like to see changed, along with a proposed change? That would be a true "starting point". MastCell 20:30, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

There was nothing disputed about the edits I made, nor did they violate WP:Weight or WP:NPOV. As currently written the article includes only criticism of Reardon, and the commentary on a PEER-REVIEWED scientific study which addresses a concern that Reardon made in response to Major et el. has been Removed. Additionally the in-line cites to the specific PEER REVIEWED studies that Reardon conducted have been removed for no reason at all. The changes that I want are in-line cites to the paragraph that indicates the PEER REVIEWED research conducted by Reardon, and the commentary on the New Zealand Study that supported a contention made in response to Major et el. We cannot include criticism of Reardon and delete scientific peer-reviewed data that serves to counter that criticism to some degree. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 02:47, 26 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Specifically these paragraphs need to be included in some way in the article, immediately after the information on Major et el. I would support a re-write if you feel it necessary, but the thesis of these paragraphs need to be included.

Reardon has generally responded to these criticisms with the counter-charge that his critics arguments and motives are themselves tainted by pro-choice biases. In response to Major's commentary regarding his study of psychiatric hospitalization following abortion, Reardon asserts that Major's critique fails to inform readers of her own studies which confirmed that a small portion of women having abortion suffer what Reardon categorizes as post-traumatic stress disorder coinciding with their abortions.

In response to the controversy and challenges presented by Reardon's research, a group of New Zealand researchers undertook a study published in 2006 to test Major's argument that psychological differences between women with a history of abortions and those with no history of abortion can be best explained by more pre-existing psychological disorders among the types of women most likely to undergo an abortion. The team, led by Professor David Fergusson, examined data collected from a longitudinal study of 500 New Zealand women between the age of 15 and 25 years of age. The study found an association between women who had abortions and elevated rates of suicidal behaviors, depression, substance abuse, anxiety, and other mental problems. Moreover, after attempting to explain these differences by examining demographic variables and measures of mental health prior to the women's first pregnancies, they concluded that the difference in subsequent mental health could not be easily explained by causes other than exposure to abortion. In the conclusions section of their paper Fergusson's team criticized the American Psychological Association (APA) for its one sided reviews of abortion complications. The New Zealand study also cites Reardon four times, using his conclusions to draw similar conclusions of their own. However, the authors of the New Zealand study were careful to not draw a causal relationship (as Reardon did) between abortion and mental illness, substance abuse, depression or other factors.Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 03:01, 26 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

BTW I have conclusive evidence that the edits made by some here may be vandalism. The edits indicate that a critic of Reardon is a "Barbara Major of the University of California" I checked on this. Guess what I found, no such person exists. The actual name of the Reardon critic is BRENDA MAJOR. Since these edits cannot even get the name of the critic right, and they remove the PEER REVIEWED response to the criticism, why should I NOT suspect vandalism. Wouldn't a serious editor get the name right? http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/168/10/1257?ijkey=aad0fbebc2d098c771d5cdc3dfd1748dd7bfc4b0&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha http://www.psych.ucsb.edu/people/faculty/major/index.phpGhostmonkey57 (talk) 03:08, 26 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Here is some further evidence that the edits that I am requesting should be included, and that Major et el's criticism is not as conclusive as it should be. The following is a e-letter that the CMAJ published in response to Major's article. It contains cites to studies which SUPPORT some of Reardon's claims:

_____________________________________________________________________________

Psychological sequelae following induced abortion 14 October 2003 Previous eLetter Top Leverett L deVeber, MD President, The deVeber Institute for Bioethics and Social Research

Send letter to journal: Re: Psychological sequelae following induced abortion

Email Leverett L deVeber, MD

In response to Dr. Major's article on psychological sequelae following induced abortion, we would like to make the following comments:

While she is to be commended for pointing out the need for more rigorous long-term studies, it is unfortunate that Dr. Major has minimized the psychological and psychiatric problems that may arise following induced abortion. Chapter 14, "Behavioral Outcomes, Suicide, Healing," of Women's Health after Abortion: The Medical and Psychological Evidence, identifies self-destructive behaviours as being more common in post- abortive women than in women who give birth.(1)

Of note is a prestigious Finnish study of the records of almost 600,000 women: it showed a suicide rate among women who aborted nearly six times greater than among women who delivered, and three times the general suicide rate.(2) A Welsh study of 408,00 women found the relative risk of suicide after induced abortion to be 3.25.(3) Other self-destructive behaviours, such as increased substance abuse, attempted suicide, self- mutilation, and eating disorders have been found more commonly in post- abortive women.(4)

In spite of apparent conflicts in the literature and methodological problems including high drop-out rates,(5) it is clear there are serious psychological problems following induced abortion. Indeed Dr. Major found 25-35 per cent of women she sampled were depressed or dissatisfied with their decision to abort.(6)

Evidence of significant post-abortion psychological dysfunction is seen in the large numbers of post-abortive women seeking counselling from organizations such as Project Rachel(7) and The Healing Choice.(8) The National Office for Project Rachel deals with 5,000 cases a year, has trained 4,000 counsellors, all of whom are fully occupied, and knows of twenty-five other counselling programs. The Healing Choice states that at least ten per cent of post-abortive women have problems requiring counselling. If one considers the large numbers of abortions done in the U.S. and Canada every year, should even a small percentage result in post- abortion psychological problems, there is a significant, cumulative public health problem requiring attention.

Doctors have a "continuing duty" as well as an obligation to inform their clients about risks associated with abortion. Prior to the procedure, a woman must be advised of the possibility of mental health problems developing at any time following abortion in addition to other risks she may face such as preterm birth, placenta praevia, and breast cancer.

Sincerely,

L.L. deVeber, MD, FRCP(C) President

Martha Crean Project Leader Women's Health after Abortion

1. Ring-Cassidy E, Gentles I. Women's Health after Abortion: The Medical and Psychological Evidence Toronto: The deVeber Institute for Bioethics and Social Research, 2002, 333 pages. Based on an analytic review of more then 500 books and scientific articles the text is a careful summary of the recent medical evidence of the impact of abortion on women's health.

2. a) Gissler M, Hemminki E, Lonnqvist J. Suicides after pregnancy in Finland 1987-94: register linkage study. BMJ 1996, Dec. 7; 313(7070): 1431-4.

b) Gissler M, Hemminki E, Lonnqvist J. Letters: Suicides after pregnancy-Authors Reply. BMJ 1997 Mar. 22; 314(7084): 902-3.

3. Morgan CL Evans M, Peters JR, Currie C. "Suicides after pregnancy. Mental health may deteriorate as a direct effect of induced abortion." BMJ March 22; 314: 902

4. For example: a) Reardon DC, Ney PG. Abortion and subsequent substance abuse. American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse 2000 Feb.; 26(1):61-75. b) Frank et al., Cocaine use during pregnancy: Prevalence and correlates. Pediatrics 1988 Dec.; 82(6):888-95. c) Mensch B, Kandel DB. Drug use as a risk factor for premarital teen pregnancy and abortion in a national sample of young white women. Demography 1992 Aug.; 29(3):409-29.

5. Soderberg H et al. "Selection bias in a study on how women experience induced abortion" European Journal of Obstetrics & Gynecology and Reproductive Biology 77 (1998) pp.67-70.

6. a) Major et al. Psychological responses of women after first trimester abortion" Archives of General Psychiatry Vol. 57, August 2000 pp. 777-784. b) Major, Cozzarelli et al. Women's experiences of and reactions to anti- abortion picketing. Basic and Applied Social Psychology 22(4) pp. 265-275.

7. Project Rachel, National Office of Reconciliation and Healing, Milwaukee, Wis. 53207; or, Box 2400, London ON N6A 4G3.

8. De Puy C and D Dovitch. The Healing Choice: Your Guide to Emotional Recovery After an Abortion. N.Y.: Fireside, 1997.

Conflict of Interest:

None declared

_______________________________________________________________________________

We need to make it clear the Major's criticism is not the end all that some want to pretend. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 03:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Your edits were disputed, as they were reverted by multiple editors including myself. Please stop capitalizing "PEER REVIEW"; there's no need to shout, and this emphasis underscores a fairly substantial misconception of what peer review means both in the real world and on Misplaced Pages. Your proposed edits have numerous major problems:

• There is no requirement that Reardon have "the last word"; views are represented in proportion to their representation among experts in the field, per WP:WEIGHT, not in an artificial point-counterpoint fashion.
• Reardon's response to Major was in the Rapid Response section of BMJ online, if I read the cite correctly. This is equivalent to lightly moderated blog commentary, and is not a reliable source, nor does it carry any WP:WEIGHT. If I'm misreading the source you mean to cite, please correct me.
• There is no evidence I can see that Fergusson's study was "in response" to Reardon; again, that is creating an artificial point-counterpoint which violates both WP:WEIGHT and WP:NOR. The conclusions of Fergusson's study are also distinctly cherry-picked and spun. Fergusson did not "criticize" the APA; he simply noted that he reached a different conclusion than did the APA's panel.
• Making a big deal of the Fergusson paper "citing Reardon four times" is just silly, and again an attempt to make Reardon a bigger factor than he actually is. The authors cited virtually all relevant previously published literature, as authors generally do when they write a manuscript. This is really stretching to synthesize a link and advance a novel position.
• Letters to the editor are not particularly WP:WEIGHTy sources when so much peer-reviewed literature exists. I don't see a rationale for including this particular letter to the editor; articles on abortion-related topics generate a huge volume of published correspondence, so neither cherry-picking this particular letter nor citing them all are very useful approaches. MastCell 06:08, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Though by way of clarification, I should add that I have no problem with inline-citing Reardon's work in the context re-added by Ghostmonkey. I've updated the references to be a bit more complete and link to the PubMed abstracts of his work. MastCell 06:27, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

• 1. Emphasis does not equal shouting.
• 2. There is equally no requirement that Brenda Major have the "last word" and that only criticism of Reardon's work be included. In fact, this is violative of WP:WEIGHT
• 3. I said I would support a re-write mentioning Fergusson's paper, but I think it important that we mention it as a balance, since we included Major for some reason.
• 4. Brenda Major is a VOCAL pro-choice advocate. Where does that fall in regards to WP:WEIGHT?
• 5. I never suggesting including the e-letter, but I included it here in the talk page to show that Major's word is hardly the end all that many want to pretend. The letter made reference to two other peer-reviewed studies which contradict major and support Reardon. This fact should be included. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 19:12, 26 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Please don't use all caps. This is covered in more detail at Talk Page Guidelines:Good Practice. That's all. As to WP:WEIGHT and "last words", it's pretty simple. What do experts in the field say about Reardon's findings? What do independent, reliable secondary sources (e.g. The New York Times Magazine, the Boston Globe, PBS, etc) say about him? Those are the sort of sources a neutral article is based on. We don't "balance" such sources by citing Reardon's website, or the National Right To Life newsletter. As to the number of studies which "support" or "contradict" Reardon, evaluating the weight of evidence is best done by examining the statements of expert panels in the field, not by individual editors cherry-picking individual primary studies and lining them up in artificial opposition. These are the bases of WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT. Finally, please indicate where Brenda Major is a "VOCAL" pro-choice advocate. Does she write up pro-choice initiatives and collect signatures to get them on the ballot? Does she promote the existence of a medically non-recognized concept to further her viewpoint? Those are the sort of actions that lead reliable, independent sources to label Reardon a "pro-life advocate". MastCell 21:28, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Mast, I wish you would attempt to be a bit more objective. Posting in all caps would be doing the following:

MAST, I WISH YOU WOULD ATTEMPT TO BE A BIT MORE OBJECTIVE. (And then continuing my entire post in caps.) Drawing Emphasis to a particular word or piece of information is not the same as "internet yelling" I take offense at you attempting to categorize my actions in this way. Aren't we supposed to be assuming good faith here?

• 2nd, Several experts in the field confirm some of Reardon's findings. I already mentioned this. Why do you feel it necessary to include only the work of Major and Russo in Criticism, and ignore the findings by other recognized experts in the field? Specifically, what is wrong with including the direct word for word statement from the Fergusson study, which contradicts Major's analysis? "This relatively strong conclusion about the absence of harm from abortion was based on a relatively small number of studies which had one or more of the following limitations: a) absence of comprehensive assessment of mental disorders; b) lack of comparison groups; and c) limited statistical controls." I further point out that your contention on the Fergusson study is wrong. Fergusson specifically responded to Russo et el in his work and DID criticize the APA. All of this is Contrary to your contentions. (See quotes from Fergusson in Dr. Throckmorton's column: http://www.rcreader.com/index2.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10959&pop=1&page=0&Itemid=42). Finally, the Fergusson study is the latest data that we have on this topic. It represents the most updated scientific knowledge that we currently possess.
• 3rd, I've gone out of my way to be civil with you. I take offense at you painting my edits and the edits of other wikipedians as "Cherry-picking". I've edited several other controversial articles here at Misplaced Pages, including Lawrence v Texas, Federal Marriage Amendment and Ex-gay in each I've worked to develop consensus and bring balance to the articles. All three articles were very badly slanted before my edits, and now each read in a much more NPOV style. I am only attempting to do the same here.Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 22:26, 26 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Let's try to move forward in a constructive manner here. Specifically, where do you stand now in regards to the article? What information would you be willing to place into the article? What information do you absolutely not want in the article? Where can we compromise and build consensus on this topic? Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 22:34, 26 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

I didn't even get to see Ghostmonkey's edits before they were "blanked" - a form of vandalism. And I can see from the discussion above that the same weak arguments for blanking material that goes against the 1989 Adler study, and Russo & Major's opinions are being trotted out once again. True collaboration requires finding a place to for ALL verifiable information instead of using bullying tactics to exclude material that goes against a preferred group of experts. MastCell's WEIGHT arguments are patently self serving as there is no evidence that the majority of experts agree with the handful cited.

MastCell has mischaracterized my view that for every study critical of abortion which I or others might add, MastCell and others should be allowed to add a counterbalancing study. No, I'd be glad to see MastCell and others add five, ten, or fifty counterbalancing studies for every one I would add...if they have any. The problem is that they don't have the studies, only the opinion of biased "experts" who insist that any studies which go against their viewpoint should be ignored. That's not WEIGHT, that is merely pontificating obstructionism of statistically validated peer reviewed studies.--Strider12 (talk) 22:44, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Deleting Verifiable Material is Vandalism -- See Blanking

Misplaced Pages policy WP:VANDAL describes the deletion of verifiable information as "blanking" -- a form of vandalism.

The reasons given by some editors in this article for removing verifiable information--even such simple and appropriate information as the subject's complete bibliography--are clearly frivolous. The only conceivable purpose for omitting a listing of Reardon's studies is to avoid the clear POV slant of this article that he is a con-artist and a fool.

Because this is an electronic journal, we don't have an obligation to keep the article under a certain word count. Clearly, out of respect to both the subject and all the editors collaborating on this article, the general rule of thumb should be to retain any added material that is verifiable. Clarifications and reorganization of verifiable information is always permissable--and truly in keeping with the goal of collaboration. But simply blanking material that runs counter to a preferred POV is never permissable. That is simply vandalism--or at the very least, crude POV-pushing.

I realize that calling vandalism by its true name is frowned upon by many editors(see Misplaced Pages:Don't call a spade a spade), but this is an ongoing problem with a number of deletions of material in both this article and post-abortion syndrome, and article in which there was an open discussion of "purging" every study Reardon has authored or co-authored. The effort to conceal his body of research continues even in his biography.

All this should be considered in light of the fact that the growing influence of Misplaced Pages among web users has caused an increasing number of special interest groups to assign paid staff to the task of being "professional" Misplaced Pages editors. Their jobs are to monitor and purging articles of verifiable facts and sources of information which conflict with their employers' agendas.

This kind of "blanking" undermines all of Misplaced Pages and is a disservice to readers who wish to have a copious amount of information available to them, not just the portion which POV-warriors are willing to share.--Strider12 (talk) 20:57, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

If you truly believe this is vandalism, and not a content dispute in which your behavior is utterly tendentious and marked by a conflict of interest, then I would suggest you report instances of such "vandalism" to WP:AIV or WP:AN/I. That's typically how actual vandalism is dealt with. MastCell 21:31, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Recent Revert by IronAngelAlice

The last revert was one that was in direct violation of the consensus achieved on this page. Both MastCell and I agreed that in-line citations were appropriate where we added them. Additionally, it was demonstrated that Reardon is a biomedical ethicist. This material was removed with the contention that it was previously agreed upon. This is not correct. Additionally this revert was one of many. WELL OVER 3. WP:3RR. As I have taken additional steps in this matter, I'll not revert until we receive additional input. But as a gesture of good-will I would request that the user who made these unilateral changes self-revert and Discuss so we can truly work toward consensus. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 03:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Actually, MastCell did not agree with you at all (see the bottom of this secion). I was the one who was trying to build consensus (see the middle of the same section).--IronAngelAlice (talk) 03:57, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Read further down, near the bottom of this section: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:David_Reardon#Replaced_Material_that_was_wrongly_deleted.

• Though by way of clarification, I should add that I have no problem with inline-citing Reardon's work in the context re-added by Ghostmonkey. I've updated the references to be a bit more complete and link to the PubMed abstracts of his work. MastCell Talk 06:27, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

• This being the case, will you self-revert the edits that MastCell and I AGREED on? Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 04:13, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

I can't keep up with you guys.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 04:14, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Wait, what exactly am I supposed to revert?--IronAngelAlice (talk) 04:17, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The in-line citations that MastCell made. Since you agree I'll revert them now.

2ndly, I think we are finally on the right track! I'll be glad to discuss changes like this with you. Give the talk pages a chance to work. If you are amicable to this, I'll declare the situation between us resolved on the admin page. I just want to work together and not against each other. Are you OK with this? Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 04:23, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

I always engage talk pages. (See above and archives). My first reaction to you was that you were attempting to bully me. But, perhaps it was simply inexperience with wikipedia. I will trust that you are editing in good faith.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 07:08, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Pacific Western University

We need to fix the section referencing Pacific Western University (Now: California Miramar University.) It is correct that PWU/CMU is unaccredited. However, the University is approved by California Board of Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education to grant degrees. This is commonly referred to as a "State Approved School." http://www.cpec.ca.gov/CollegeGuide/AdvCollegeSearch.asp?InstType=StateAppr

2nd, The blurb says that PWU/CMU does not offer classroom or online instruction. As far as I can tell, the university DOES offer online instruction AND evening classes. It appears that the online program is similar in nature to other Distance Education schools. I am not sure what the evening classes entail. http://www.calmu.edu/main-navigation/admissions/faqs.html

Either way, as currently written the blurb is inaccurate. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 06:11, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

What is now California Mairamar University is not the same entity that Reardon was claiming to have a degree from. Please see the reference from the New York Times and the wikipedia article. Reardon received no on-line or classroom instruction. He simply received a piece of paper.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 06:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Why does our page link to the CMU wikipedia page? While it's true that PWU Hawaii was sold off and disaffiliated with PWU California, the sources and links that you provided have not established which PWU Reardon received his degree from. Can you firmly establish that Reardon received his degree from PWU Hawaii, AFTER it was separated from PWU-California? If not, then my contention applies. If you can firmly establish that the degree was from PWU Hawaii, we need to change the link to PWU Hawaii and not the CMU webpage. This distinction is important, and is noted on State Web-pages dealing with this issue. Additionally, the very NYT link you provided above as a source for the statement in the article, says: ...is said to have a doctorate in biomedical ethics from Pacific Western University, an unaccredited correspondence school, according to Chris Mooney, the author of “The Republican War on Science. The links provided in the article state: "he's since acquired a Ph.D. in biomedical ethics from Pacific Western University, an unaccredited correspondence school offering no classroom instruction." We cannot unilaterally add, "which offers no online or classroom instruction" or "that had no classroom or online instruction during the period Reardon claimed to have received a degree." when the very sources linked provide no such claim. Especially since our page now links to CMU, which DOES offer online and classroom instruction and IS state approved. Maintaining the wording as is could be considered libel against CMU. We need to change the wording of the blurb to reflect the actual wording of the cited sources. I will do so now. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 07:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

I am currently looking for references which can establish which institution issued Reardon's degree. Do you have ANYTHING which shows the date and location of said degree? We need to firmly establish the correct institution. If the degree was granted from PWU-California, then we need to revert the link to the CMU page. If the degree was granted from PWU-Hawaii we can keep the wording as is. If it was PWI-California, the wording needs to change. I'll see what I can find. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 08:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Nevermind, I found it. Reardon received his degree in 1995 from PWU CALIFORNIA not PWU Hawaii. See: http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v20n2/chamberlain_politicized_science.html PWU Hawaii was incorporated in 1988 and PWU was headquartered there in 1994 as per the NYT links you provided. If Reardon's degree was issued in 1995 in California, it was Certainly from PWU California, and is the same institution that is now CMU. I'll fix the wording. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 08:10, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

I've looked, I can find absolutely no references which show that Reardon "didn't receive any online or classroom instruction." None whatsoever. Even the most left-leaning sources I've read simply leave it at "unaccredited correspondence school." Unless we can find a reliable source which establishes that Reardon "Bought a degree" or "Received no classroom or online instruction" It can be considered libel to put such a line in the article. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 08:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Ghostmonkey, the United States General Accounting Office lists Pacific Western University as a "diploma mill." In testimony (downloaded here: www.gao.gov/new.items/d04771t.pdf) GAO investigators said:

Moreover, diploma mills and other unaccredited schools modify their billing practices so students can obtain payments for degrees by the federal government. Purporting to be a prospective student, our investigator placed telephone calls to three schools that award academic credits based on life experience and require no classroom instruction: Barrington University (Mobile, Alabama); Lacrosse University (Bay St. Louis, Mississippi); and Pacific Western University (Los Angeles, California). These schools each charge a flat fee for a degree. For example, fees for degrees for domestic students at Pacific Western University are as follows: Bachelor of Science ($2,295); Master’s Degree in Business Administration ($2,395); and PhD ($2,595). School representatives emphasized to our undercover investigator that they are not in the business of providing, and do not permit students to enroll for, individual courses or training. Instead, the schools market and require payment for degrees on a flat-fee basis.

Also see: http://books.google.com/books?id=FzkMEDKflKwC&pg=PA221&lpg=PA221&dq=%22us+government+accountability+office%22+pacific+western+university&source=web&ots=1wJLiUWtuX&sig=cZD0c1PrRnH0Ah5xXbwlBl7jpTw http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/310/5753/1423a
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2007/08/117_8792.html --IronAngelAlice (talk) 08:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, but we cannot find a source which conclusively proves that Reardon obtained his degree in that manner without completing any coursework. As per the guidlines http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons We cannot include that information as it can be libel unless you can source it. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 08:25, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Not at all "agreed." Did you not take the time to read the .pdf from the GAO? It clearly states that Pacific Western University is "not in the business of providing, and do not permit students to enroll for, individual courses or training." The GAO lists Pacific Western as a "Diploma Mill." --IronAngelAlice (talk) 08:27, 28 December 2007

Yes, and no where in the .pdf does it say "David C. Reardon bought his degree" or "David C. Reardon received his degree without any coursework or instruction." As per BLP policy we can't include that information unless firmly and clearly established. It can be libel if we do so. We know that the school offered a GOA investigator a degree without coursework. We do not know nor can we firmly establish that Reardon received his degree in the same manner. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 08:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

What's written in this article is a called a summary. No online or in-class coursework is a nicer way of saying, "he obtained his degree from a diploma mill." This is not liable. It's clearly stated by the GAO, and in other published sources! Good Lord!!!&*$%&@$&(@%--IronAngelAlice (talk) 08:35, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, Chris Mooney writes: "he's since acquired a Ph.D. in biomedical ethics from Pacific Western University, an unaccredited correspondence school offering no classroom instruction." (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0410.mooney.html)--IronAngelAlice (talk) 08:36, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

No, what is written is that a GOA investigator was told that he could receive a degree without coursework. Additionally you are misinterpreting a passage in the GOA report. In context the passage reads: "School representatives emphasized to our undercover investigator that they are not in the business of providing, and do not permit students to enroll for, individual courses or training. Instead, the schools market and require payment for degrees on a flat-fee basis. IOW: The representative at the school was telling the Investigator that they could not enroll in individual courses, and must pay for the entire degree program on a flat-fee basis. It DOES NOT establish that no coursework was involved, nor does it establish that Reardon obtained his degree in that manner. And it can be LIBEL to assert such unless you can find a reliable source which says REARDON OBTAINED HIS DEGREE IN THIS MANNER. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 08:40, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

See Chris Mooney (also Korea Times, and the American Association for the Advancement of Science magazine). You are out of control, GM.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 08:44, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Write, Christ Mooney wrote, "he's since acquired a Ph.D. in biomedical ethics from Pacific Western University, an unaccredited correspondence school offering no classroom instruction." That's not the same as "No online or classroom instruction." That's also not the same as "Reardon did no coursework and bought a diploma." You cannot establish that Reardon did NO correspondence coursework to obtain his unaccredited PHD. If you can do so, please cite the source. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 08:42, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

No, now the burden of proof is on you. I've established from reputable sources, including the United States United States General Accounting Office, that Pacific Western is a "diploma mill." It is incumbent upon you to establish that Reardon did any coursework.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 08:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

No, you established that the GOA investigators were told that the school did not permit students to enroll for, individual courses or training. Instead, the schools market and require payment for degrees on a flat-fee basis. They were also told that the school would restructure payments in order to obtain federal funds for such course-work. No where in the GOA report did the report say that Reardon did not obtain his degree without doing coursework. And NO the burden of proof is not on me, as this is an article involving a LIVING PERSON, the standards are much higher here than they are on other pages at wikipedia. If you want to mention what they GOA investigators found, you can do so, as I did. You cannot word the section in the manner in which you did earlier. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 08:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

I certainly can. Chris Mooney already published it. Why are you doing this? It's completely illogical.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 08:55, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Chris Mooney did not say that Reardon obtained his degree without any coursework. Mooney stated "he's since acquired a Ph.D. in biomedical ethics from Pacific Western University, an unaccredited correspondence school offering no classroom instruction." "No Classroom instruction" does not equal "no coursework". Your last edit actually very good, and close to where it needs to be as per policy. We just need to add exactly what was going on in the GOA investigation. I'll do that. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 09:02, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Reardon received his Ph.D. in 1995 from Pacific Western University, an unaccredited correspondence school. Pacific Western University was named in a United States General Accountability Office investigation regarding diploma mills and unaccredited universities. GOA investigators were told that the school would restructure payments to obtain federal funds for degree programs that were only offered on a flat-fee basis. The State of California shut down Pacific Western University for being a "degree mill."

THERE!!! That's fine like that. I used your last edit, added in the section from the GOA report, and made sure the link went to PWU California rather than PWU Hawaii. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 09:08, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

This sentence is VERY relevant: "GOA investigators were told that the school would restructure payments to obtain federal funds for degree programs that were only offered on a flat-fee basis." The GOA was investigating the use of Federal funds for degree programs which were not actually eligible for Federal money. That's what the GOA does. We need to cite what exactly the GOA was investigating. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 09:17, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

What the school claims to want to do in the future has no bearing on what it was doing while Reardon was obtaining/buying a degree. You are ignoring references and sources, and are pushing a POV. Please stop. --IronAngelAlice (talk) 09:28, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not pushing a POV. The GOA investigation involved the use of federal funds to pay for degrees which were not eligible for such funds. Federal money cannot be used for a flat rate degree program. PWU offered to fake a payment plan to the federal government so that the degree would be paid for, even though not eligible. THAT'S what the GOA was investigating. Hence the need for the sentence. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 09:35, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

I get it, I think you misunderstand my edit! Let me try again. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 09:36, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

"According to that report, a representative at Pacific Western University offered to falsify a payment plan to illegally obtain federal funds for degree programs which were only offered on a flat-rate basis, and not eligible for such funding." Does that make more sense? The GOA investigation uncovered fraud in obtaining federal money for programs that were not eligible. That's the point of the edit. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 09:42, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

The GOA investigation involved schools modify their billing practices so students can obtain payments for degrees by the federal government. That's what the GOA investigates, the waste/theft of Federal money. School representatives emphasized to our undercover investigator that they are not in the business of providing, and do not permit students to enroll for, individual courses or training. Instead, the schools market and require payment for degrees on a flat-fee basis.However, representatives of each school told our undercover investigator that they would structure their charges in order to facilitate payment by the federal government. Each agreed to divide the degree fee by the number of courses a student was required to take, thereby creating a series of payments as if a per course fee were charged. All of the school representatives stated that students at their respective schools had secured payment for their degrees by the federal government. My sentence is relevant and necessary to show exactly what the GOA was investigating. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 09:24, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Guidelines for this article

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons

We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high quality references. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Misplaced Pages articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space.

Biographies of living persons (BLPs) must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid; it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. An important rule of thumb when writing biographical material about living persons is "do no harm".

This policy applies equally to biographies of living persons and to biographical material about living persons in other articles. The burden of evidence for any edit on Misplaced Pages, but especially for edits about living persons, rests firmly on the shoulders of the person who adds or restores the material.

If, either as an editor or a subject, you have concerns about biographical material about a living person in Misplaced Pages, please report your concerns on the BLP noticeboard.

__________________________________________________________

The views of critics should be represented if they are relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics; rather, it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone. Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one. If the criticism represents the views of a tiny minority, it has no place in the article. Care must be taken with article structure to ensure the overall presentation is broadly neutral, in particular, header structure for regions or subsections should reflect important areas to the subject's notability.

Content should be sourced to reliable sources and should be about the subject of the article specifically. Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association. Editors should also be on the lookout for biased or malicious content about living persons. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability.

__________________________________________________________

These two points need to be taken into consideration. We need to fix the Critics section, as the article as written contains only criticism and not the paragraph regarding the Fergusson Study and the Reardon Response. This is violative of the policy. I suggest we agree on a consensus edit of the two paragraphs to conform to the guidelines written above. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 08:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Simply copying and repasting wiki rules does not a compelling argument make. Please point out why the criticism section is unacceptable.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 08:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

"The views of critics should be represented if they are relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics; rather, it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." That's very easy to understand. The article is overwhelmed with and appears to side with critics. Period. If we do not include the previously deleted paragraphs, this article violates BLP. We can re-write the paragraphs in a consensus manner and include them in the Critical section. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 08:55, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Here is what was written previously:

Reardon has generally responded to these criticisms with the counter-charge that his critics arguments and motives are themselves tainted by pro-choice biases. In response to Major's commentary regarding his study of psychiatric hospitalization following abortion, Reardon asserts that Major's critique fails to inform readers of her own studies which confirmed that a small portion of women having abortion suffer what Reardon categorizes as post-traumatic stress disorder coinciding with their abortions.

In response to the controversy and challenges presented by Reardon's research, a group of New Zealand researchers undertook a study published in 2006 to test Major's argument that psychological differences between women with a history of abortions and those with no history of abortion can be best explained by more pre-existing psychological disorders among the types of women most likely to undergo an abortion. The team, led by Professor David Fergusson, examined data collected from a longitudinal study of 500 New Zealand women between the age of 15 and 25 years of age. The study found an association between women who had abortions and elevated rates of suicidal behaviors, depression, substance abuse, anxiety, and other mental problems. Moreover, after attempting to explain these differences by examining demographic variables and measures of mental health prior to the women's first pregnancies, they concluded that the difference in subsequent mental health could not be easily explained by causes other than exposure to abortion. In the conclusions section of their paper Fergusson's team criticized the American Psychological Association (APA) for its one sided reviews of abortion complications. The New Zealand study also cites Reardon four times, using his conclusions to draw similar conclusions of their own. However, the authors of the New Zealand study were careful to not draw a causal relationship (as Reardon did) between abortion and mental illness, substance abuse, depression or other factors.

We can re-write these to fit consensus and include them where they were deleted. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 08:56, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

See the archives. The article was already written by consensus. To ignore criticisms of Reardon would be a mistake considering his fringe positions. I'm warning you now to slow down.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 08:58, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say ignore the criticisms. They should be included, but we cannot include only criticism. We need to replace the section that mentions the peer-reviewed research conducted by Dr. Fergusson which debunked the Major/Russo Criticisms to some degree. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 09:00, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Let's go one paragraph at a time. What specifically is wrong with this:

Reardon has generally responds to his critics with the counter-charge that his critics arguments and motives are themselves tainted by pro-choice biases. In response to Major's commentary regarding his study of psychiatric hospitalization following abortion, Reardon asserts that Major's critique fails to inform readers of her own studies which confirmed that a small portion of women having abortion suffer what Reardon categorizes as post-traumatic stress disorder coinciding with their abortions.Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 09:13, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

I agree with Ghostmonkey that this article is slanted and continues to be biased. As I've previously argued, Misplaced Pages policy is clear. Reardon is published in peer reviewed journals, therefore he is an expert. As an expert, anything he publishes in defense of his research and view, even if published on the Elliot Institute web site (arguably self-published) is reliable and may be properly included as part the discussion of any controversy surrounding him. These are basic principles that are being violated by those who want to bias this article against Reardon by cutting out his bibliography and any fair representation of his written positions.--Strider12 (talk) 18:17, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anyone suggesting that we remove criticisms of Reardon and/or his work. Instead, I see requests that we add back in the information that was deleted regarding his response to these criticisms AND information on the peer-reviewed study out of NZ that confirmed Reardon to at least SOME degree. Including this information is not POV, instead, it will help conform article to wikipedia policy on BLPs. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 23:08, 31 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

There's a fundamental misunderstanding here, and it stems from the a Reardon-centric cosmology. The Fergusson paper didn't "debunk" anything. It was not a "response" to criticism of Reardon, and setting it up as such is a canonical violation of WP:SYN. The Fergusson paper reached a conclusion at odds with that of the APA, and carefully explained why that might be (including discussion of a number of limitations of their study). Presumably, when the APA's new position statement is released it will take Fergusson's research into account; when that statement is released, it will obviously have a major bearing on how things are presented here. However, we shouldn't attempt to pre-empt that evaluation by claiming that Fergusson's research "debunks" prior findings. The problem is that Reardon's arguments are part of a larger debate on "post-abortion syndrome" - a debate where his view is clearly opposed by a large volume of evidence and expert opinion. Giving Reardon the "last word" by citing non-notable blog responses he's made (in apposition to editorials from peer-reviewed journals) unfairly and inaccurately skews our representation of that debate. Reardon's position is represented here, in his own words, at length. Most independent, reliable secondary source coverage of Reardon and his research is mildly to moderately critical. That's a fact - we didn't create these sources, but we need to base the article on them. MastCell 23:30, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Fergusson was VERY critical of both Russo and Major. By leaving out any reference to his study at all, especially since he criticized both Russo and Major, is giving Russo and Major the "last word". What specifically is the problem with re-writing the paragraph to include Fergusson's findings which conflict with Russo and Major? Why should Russo and Major "have the last word?" Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 00:17, 1 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Sorry, please point out where you believe he was "VERY critical" of Russo and Major. While you're at it, explain why it's imperative to prominently cite this particular study, while dozens of others touching on the same topic but reaching different conclusions are not given such a limelight. More generally, I have a problem with editors selectively cherry-picking from the available literature and highlighting (and spinning) specific study results, obscuring the well-documented consensus view of the totality of data on the subject. MastCell 00:33, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Please see his comments in the column that I referred to you. As for why I believe it important to cite this particular study, can you give me reasons why it is so important NOT to cite it? Are you aware of any more recent studies on this issue that have an opposite result? I believe that Fergusson's study was conducted after Russo and Major's and hence does represent the latest scientific data that we have among the sources cited here. As to why it's important at this article, the study confirms Reardon's assertions to some degree. I am not suggesting that it vindicates Reardon, proves him completely correct, or even that it mitigates all criticism of Reardon. Nor am I suggesting that it is the last word or end of research in this topic area. What I am saying, is that we have included numerous criticisms of Reardon, yet it seems like we have went out of the way to ignore anything that even remotely looks to verify even some of his findings. The Fergusson study provides balance in that regard, and hence, is important to cite. I can live with leaving it out if you can explain why it is so damaging or POV to include it. Especially considering that Dr. Fergusson is Pro-Choice, and continues to agree that abortion should be a civil-right. Surely no one can suggest that he is somehow in on a sort of conspiracy with Reardon? I think it important to include some reference to this study, although it does not have to be in a large drawn out paragraph as previously written. Would it be so bad to have a simple one or two sentence write up and link to the study to balance out the criticism made by Russo and Major. Please don't assume that I am trying to set Reardon free from all criticism. I simply believe that if we purposely ignore scientific research in one regard, then we are making an article POV when it shouldn't be. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 02:32, 1 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

That sounds like original research, GhostM.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 04:19, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Please explain to me how Fergusson's study is original research? It's peer reviewed and published, how does that fit with WP:OR? Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 22:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Reardons' Academic Credentials

I see someone removed the material, again, regarding the fact that Reardon has published over 25 peer reviewed articles. A listing of these journals was added to the section regarding his Academic Credentials as clearly peer reviewed publications ALWAYS belong on an academics CV and are used to judge the persons credentials.

After deleting this verifiable material, a hostile editor added original research, in violation of Misplaced Pages policy, regarding PWU (not Reardon) in an attempt to promote a "guilt by association" bias against Reardon.

All we have is Mooney's one sentence about Reardon and PWU. Assuming it is true, any repetition here should be limited to that one sentence, and arguably should be included only in the section regarding Mooney's article in which he levels this and other criticisms against Reardon. Calling out this charge that he has a degree from an unaccredited university in one of the first sections gives it undue weight, especially when editors insist on erasing his more important academic credentials as a frequently published author of peer reviewed studies. In the academic world, publications matter far more than where one got one's degree. Once one has been working in the real world, the work is more important than one's degree, much less one's school. Should we also investigate and report if Reardon graduated from a public or private high school?--Strider12 (talk) 18:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I actually believe that we should just leave the first sentence as: "Reardon received his Ph.D. from Pacific Western University, an unaccredited correspondence school. ". If we are going to include additional information about PWU, including the GOA investigation, then we need to include exactly what PWU was investigated for; which was illegally obtaining federal money for programs that were not eligible. If we just leave it at GOA investigation, we don't know what that investigation was about. And Yes, you are right, the fact that PWU was engaged in fraud does not mean that Reardon did anything wrong. I agree that it is important to mention the peer-reviewed research that was done. If Reardon had absolutely no degree, yet was still able to be published in several peer-reviewed medical journals, that is still an accomplishment of note. I think I can agree with placing a mention of this, what does everyone else think? Are the in-line cites enough?Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 19:44, 28 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

An investigation means nothing and has nothing to do with Reardon...unless documentation links them. Also, the no original research rule means nothing if one is allowed to do separate research about PWU, which is not Reardon related, merely to expand on the criticism made by Mooney. It is fine to quote Mooney's criticism, but beyond that it is original research...and research purely intended to bias readers against Reardon at that. There is nothing illegal or immoral about getting a degree from a state licensed university which is not accredited. This is all a red herring. But since Mooney raises it, it's fair game to report in a fashion that doesn't give it undue weight.--Strider12 (talk) 20:33, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not "Mooney's criticism"; it was reported not only by Mooney, but by PBS as well, that Reardon's degree is from a non-accredited school. As to the morality of representing oneself as an expert by purchasing credentials which otherwise require many years of work, study, and dedication to acquire, I suppose that could be debated endlessly, but not here. I actually agree with Strider12 here that we should note his degree comes from an unaccredited institution (this is notable by virtue of mention in multiple independent, reliable secondary sources), but we need not get into citing extra material about PWU which does not bear directly on Reardon or mention him specifically. The GAO material is probably best used in the PWU page rather than here. MastCell 05:42, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with MastCell and Strider--IronAngelAlice (talk) 21:22, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

If we are going to keep the sentence as is, then I agree with everyone else as well. IAA I think you misunderstand my edits. If we are going to include information about the PWU, including the GOA investigation, then we needed to provide information as to what the investigation was about. But after reading the above comments, I agree that that information is best for the PWU page, and I'll add it there. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 23:06, 31 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

I don't think there is agreement that the GOA investigation should be included. It is not related to Reardon.

Also, I don't believe there really are separate sources confirming that Reardon got his degree from PWU. Neither Mooney, Bazelon nor NOW report having interviewed Reardon or PWU and you can't find the link made at the PWU web site or the Elliot Institute sites. Bazelon and the NOW piece appear to be citing Mooney, as obviously they are repeating many of Mooney's other assertions. --Strider12 (talk) 15:38, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

No, sorry. Multiple independent, reliable secondary sources vouch for this. It's actually really the best-sourced item in the article, from a WP:RS standpoint. You think PBS and Bazelon "appear to be citing" Mooney? Think what you like, but don't try to force your opinions into Misplaced Pages. When multiple independent sources mention the same fact, it's likely that said fact is correct and notable - not that they are plagiarizing each other or failing due diligence. As to interviewing Reardon, you continue to create much ado about this. The PBS piece in particular notes that they made extensive efforts to interview Reardon, which he refused. So please stop with this line of argument as an attempt to impeach the few reliable, independent sources actually cited by this article. MastCell 16:58, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

You don't believe reporters read and report what other reporters have reported? (The NOW piece is practically a video short of Bazelon's article.) If they got their info about PWU from Moody--which is an if--then it is not independent. That's the only point I was making.--Strider12 (talk) 14:57, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

OK. How do you propose we incorporate your unsourced hunch into the article in a way that lines up with Misplaced Pages's policies? Until you have an answer, let's confine this talk page to discussion of material that could actually impact the article. MastCell 19:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Summary of Books

I've just finished re-reading Aborted Women-Silent No More. The following, which is in the article, is very inaccurate:

In 1985, Reardon surveyed members of a group called Women Exploited by Abortion, and found high rates of nervous breakdowns, substance abuse, and suicide attempts. Reardon described this finding as proof of a link between abortion and psychological harm. However, his findings were dismissed as non-generalizable by expert panels in the medical community, due to the selection bias introduced by surveying only women from a pro-life organization who already felt "exploited" by their abortion.

Nothing indicates the survey was in 1985. He does not report on nervous breakdowns at all, and does not describe rates of substance abuse or suicide attempts, but merely reports (including in the stories contributed by WEBA members) that some felt suicide or engaged in substance4 abuse. And I find no where that he describes his "findings as proof of a link between and psychological harm." He also clearly addresses the limits of the WEBA sample as self-selected and not generalizable, and goes on to compare his survey of WEBA members to what was published by other researchers at that time such as Zimmerman. He mostly let's women just tell their own stories. Also, WEBA was not a pro-life organization. It was a post-abortion peer support group which included women who still considered themselves pro-choice despite also feeling that abortion had caused them great grief or other emotional distress. Finally, while it would not be in the book, the statement about "expert panels" that dismissed the WEBA findings needs clarification about what panels and what they said. This appears to be just a handwaving dismissal that is not based on actual panel reports. The APA panel report (Adler et al, Science 1990)for example, does not even mention Reardon or the WEBA sample so there is no record that even it dismissed the findings.

Unless somone can provide quotes from the book that support the accuracy of the paragraph in question, I will remove it and replace it with a more accurate summary.--Strider12 (talk) 15:19, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

While doing so would be in keeping with your general approach, I would strongly suggest you don't remove the material. It's sourced (see the footnote) to the New York Times Magazine. Which, as has been endlessly and fruitlessly pointed out, is the sort of reliable secondary source upon which this article should be based. All of the issues you raise are explicitly addressed in the NY Times Magazine article. There is no need to provide countervailing quotes from Reardon's book, and demanding such is clear evidence that despite endless interventions from other editors, you continue to fundamentally misunderstand our verifibility and sourcing policies. If you think the New York Times Magazine incorrectly described Reardon's work, then the solution is to write to the New York Times about it. They are a responsible organization which corrects errors of fact when such are identified. In the absence of such a correction, arguing from your reading of Reardon's book is never going to supersede what a reliable secondary source explicitly has to say about the subject. That is the basis of WP:OR. MastCell 19:40, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

On other pages editors and admins are stressing that "sources don't have to be NPOV, only our use of them in the article must be NPOV." Are they incorrect? Further, the NYT is hardly; "non-partisan and reliable." You cannot unilaterally decide that only one reference is sufficient and that only one source provides all of the information on a particular topic. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 21:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

I must further take a point of contention with your advice to Strider. Telling him to "write to the NYT about it" is hardly advice that is going to pass muster. What if the NYT writes a story saying that I am the Queen of England? Should we then publish that in wikipedia? Should the only recourse be to write to the NYT about it? Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 21:17, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

BTW: Did you even look to see who the NYT magazine article was written by? EMILY BAZELON???? The NYT Magazine stated: "Emily Bazelon is a senior editor at Slate and frequently writes about the law and science." BUT WAIT, THERE IS MORE!!! Apparently, Emily Bazelon, consistently writes opinion pieces from a pro-choice perspective in Slate and other outlets like Mother Jones. (Both self-described left-leaning publications.) She is the grand-daughter of judge David L. Bazelon and the cousin of NARAL co-founder Betty Friedan." Her article was criticized by some of the very people she interviewed, including Dr. Priscilla K. Coleman of Bowling Green State University. http://www.bgsu.edu/organizations/cfdr/about/facultymembers/coleman.html How on earth can we consider this a "reliable non-partisan NPOV" piece. Are you seriously suggesting that we accept the reporting of Emily Bazelon as the gospel truth? Seriously??? Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 21:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

I'll take the biggest strawman argument first. The New York Times has a respectable fact-checking and editorial process. They would not print that you were the Queen of England. If they did, they would undoubtedly respond promptly to any correction you provided them. The New York Times is sort of the epitome of a reliable source in the manner in which the term is defined by Misplaced Pages (see WP:RS and WP:V). If you're seriously arguing here that the New York Times is not a reliable source for Misplaced Pages, then I'd suggest you take it to the reliable sources noticeboard.

I'm not suggesting you accept anything as "gospel truth". I am suggesting that when the New York Times publishes something, that it carries more weight for Misplaced Pages's purposes than someone's homepage or blog comments. The standard on Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth. Misplaced Pages's articles are based on reliable, secondary sources - in fact, without them a subject is not considered notable. The NY Times Magazine is a reputable, independent, reliable secondary source as Misplaced Pages defines those terms. MastCell 22:41, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Jayson Blair? He was with the NYT right? It is well known that the NYT is left-leaning. Just as the Washington Times tends to be right-leaning. I can cite multiple independent sources for both claims. I am not suggesting that the NYT shouldn't be used, as it most certainly falls within the mainstream, just as the Washington Times would. However, it is NOT the most reliable and non-partisan source as you are claiming, and it is certainly NOT the only source for which we should include information on a particular topic, especially since EMILY BAZELON is actually the source of the information. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 22:50, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

What would constitute reliable sourced information that we could include to make sure that Bazelon's version was not the only version represented? How about a sentence and link to the actual study that was conducted? Is that possible?Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 22:52, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

The New York Times is more respected and mainstream than the Washington Times, and I would suggest that the level of ideology being pushed by those two outlets is nowhere near as equivalent as you make it sound. But that's neither here nor there. Misplaced Pages doesn't work by you citing Jayson Blair and some alleged left-wing agenda of the NYT and thereby discrediting it as a source. Reliably sourced information is quite easily identifiable - see WP:V. I understand that you want to make sure that the New York Times is not the only view represented, but it's generally better to let the available reliable sources dictate the article, rather than searching high and low for a passable source to contradict one you don't like. Still, if you don't like seeing the New York Times cited, then the best approach is to find another equally reliable secondary source dealing with the same topics and cite it. MastCell 23:08, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Again, I didn't say that the NYT shouldn't be used, I stated that it should not be the ONLY source used. The NYT is to the left what the Washington Times is to the right. Both fall within the mainstream, both are considered reliable sources. However, both also need to be taking with a grain of salt, especially if the writer of a particular piece is a known commodity. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 23:14, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Secondly, you missed my second question. What would constitute reliable sourced information that we could include to make sure that Bazelon's version was not the only version represented? How about a sentence and link to the actual study that was conducted? Is that possible? Wouldn't the actual study be a better source than Bazelon's summary of it?Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 23:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D01E7D8173DF936A15754C0A9629C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1 Is The New York Times a Liberal Newspaper? :) Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 23:20, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Sure, but if we're using that as a source, then I could equally well quote Stephen Colbert to the effect that reality has a well-known liberal bias. :) As to the study itself, my understanding is that it was not published in the peer-reviewed literature (presumably due to its methodologic flaws). Do you have an idea of where it was published, beyond what the Times article says? MastCell 23:35, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

LOL! I see a clear difference between the Public Editor of the NYT and a comedian. In any case I'll see if I can find the actual study. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 23:48, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

MastCell. So if I understand you correctly, just because it is published by as a magazine article in the New York Times Magazine (not news, but opinion, commentary and analysis) we shouldn't bother to actually read the book to see if Bazelon got it right? Maybe she didn't even read the book but merely reported what she had been told by Russo?

Are you also saying that secondary sources should always trump primary sources? That's absurd. And by the way, could you please point me to the Misplaced Pages policy that informs us that secondary sources are to be preferred over primary sources. You say it a lot, but I haven't found it anywhere. I consider that to be a very anti-intellectual policy...if it actually exists.

I can't help but think that you are just using a string of excuses to try to eliminate the use of any sources which conflict with "reliable" left-wing newspapers.--Strider12 (talk) 21:11, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Strider 12, Do you have a link to the final study that Reardon did? If we can review that we can see if Bazelon's summary was correct or not. I've been looking but haven't had any luck.Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 01:29, 6 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Strider12: The policy is called Misplaced Pages:No original research. It is one of the cornerstones of Misplaced Pages. It states, in part: "Misplaced Pages articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Misplaced Pages editors." Please read the policy. Doing so may clear up some of the misunderstandings here. MastCell 03:35, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I've read the policy: Misplaced Pages:No original research. Nothing in there suggests that we cannot check up on a secondary source to ensure that they are not lying or misinformed. Example, If a writer for B claims Source A says X, and we look up source A and find out that it actually says Y, then we can obviously reject the misinformation from writer B as unreliable. I am not talking about our re-interpretation of a study or data, or posting our own analysis of one. I am referring to when a secondary source gets something obviously wrong, we can then reject the secondary source as not-trustworthy as applied to the circumstance.Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 11:26, 9 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Academic credentials section

I've retitled "Academic credentials" to "Academic degree". The simple fact is that the source of Reardon's degree is notable, having been discussed in several independent, reliable secondary sources. Listing the journals in which he's published is an artificial editorial attempt to "balance" this reliably sourced information, and violates WP:OR.

I've also removed the sources added by User:Strider12 to the Missouri Stem Cell initiative section. Reliable, independent sources on this do exist (there are other newspaper articles besides the ones I've cited, though I think they cover the issue adequately). There is therefore no need to insert newsletters from partisan pro-life organizations as "additional" sources (see WP:RS). I have specifically avoided using pro-choice organization material as sourcing, despite the fact that Planned Parenthood et al have plenty to say about Reardon, unless said sourcing is specifically identified. The more we can rely on independent, non-partisan sources (NY Times, PBS, statements from the APA, etc) the more neutral the article will be. MastCell 19:47, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

The NY Times editorializes in favor of abortion. The APA is not neutral. In 1969 it adopted an official position in favor of abortion as a civil right and has lobbied for abortion, against parental notice, etc.. Your definition of "neutral" means any pro-choice source and the exclusion of any conservative or pro-life source. Why not be fair and just liberally accept any news source, much less ALL peer reviewed studies?--Strider12 (talk) 21:32, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. This means that Misplaced Pages is not the place to publish your opinions, experiences, or arguments. Citing sources and avoiding original research are inextricably linked: to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented.

David Reardon's work is PUBLISHED in PEER-REVIEWED Journals. How on earth can Published Peer-reviewed research be considered OR??. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 21:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Please don't shout. And read a little further: "Material can often be put together in a way that constitutes original research even if its individual elements have been published by reliable sources. Synthesizing material occurs when an editor tries to demonstrate the validity of his or her own conclusions by citing sources that when put together serve to advance the editor's position. If the sources cited do not explicitly reach the same conclusion, then the editor is engaged in original research." Yes, David Reardon has been published in peer-reviewed journals. In fact, this is stated and cited repeatedly in the article. However, listing his journal publications as a counterpoint to information about his academic degree advances an editor's position that the unaccredited source of his degree doesn't matter. Using these sources in this way, to artificially "balance" direct, well-sourced information about his degree, is improper synthesis, as described in WP:SYN. MastCell 22:35, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Please don't accuse me of shouting when I already explained that I am not doing so. We've already had that particular conversation and we don't need to rehash it here. If we change the label of the section from Academic Credentials to Academic Degree, then we would be correct to limit the discussion to ONLY the degree. However, if the section is labeled academic credentials, then it would NOT be WP:OR or WP:SYN to discuss the peer-reviewed research and publications that Reardon has done. We need to pick a version and stick with it. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 22:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

As Reardon's publications are dealt with and cited at length elsewhere in the article, it makes the most sense to limit this particular section to discussion of his degree. I've altered the section title accordingly, as you suggest. Using all-caps is generally considered shouting. MastCell 23:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your current edit. I use all-caps in portions for emphasis, just as I sometimes use HTML bold. I don't consider it shouting and don't mean it as such. As I have no intention of using it thus, you shouldn't take any offense from it. That's how I emphasize something I feel important. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 23:03, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

OK. No big deal. MastCell 23:09, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

FYI: typing is all-caps is perceived by most as shouting. --IronAngelAlice (talk) 23:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe that There is a difference between using caps for emphasis and typing an entire paragraph in all caps. Example:

David Reardon's work is PUBLISHED in PEER-REVIEWED Journals. How on earth can Published Peer-reviewed research be considered OR??

DAVID REARDON'S WORK IS PUBLISHED IN PEER-REVIEWED JOURNALS. HOW ON EARTH CAN PUBLISHED PEER-REVIEWED RESEARCH BE CONSIDERED OR??

1st example uses Caps for emphasis, second is yelling. Hope that clears things up. Remember, Not everyone subscribes to "internet laws." (Godwins law for example.)Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 23:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Hehe, is obnoxious use of quotations also an "internet law"? --IronAngelAlice (talk) 23:49, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Doubt it. :) Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 23:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Poor Ghostmonkey. I see they're giving you the same old hassles and run arounds. Wasting time complaining about CAPS as if a word or two in caps threatens them with blindness. But such complaints are easier than actually coming up with reasoanble responses to support their unreasonable deletions of verifiable materials.--Strider12 (talk) 20:48, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Academic degree instead of Academic Credentials? Isn't this new title by MastCell just another way to exclude his credentials while highlighting quesions about his degree? How many other biographies begin with a separate section identifying the academic degree? I disagree and have reverted it. --Strider12 (talk) 21:15, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

In discussing reasons to blank Reardon's publications as part of his academic credentials, MastCell seems confused about improper synthesis as described in WP:SYN. There is nothing at all wrong with giving facts A and B, even facts that may lead the reader to conclude if A and B then C. Giving facts to readers so they can draw their own conclusions is very valid and necessary. Improper synthesis occurs when an editor gives A and B then takes the extra step of expounding on C. Clearly, giving a scholar's bibliography is giving facts and clearly allowable and necessary to fairly represent his the work for which he is notable. Whether readers consider it to be notable and to qualify him as an expert is up to them.

Also, improper sythnesis includes original research which seeks to tie unrelated articles together in order to promote a conclusion that goes beyond the articles. For example, in this article this has been done with references stating (a) Reardon has a degree from PWU and (b) there was in investigation of PWU for being a rotten school, even though the second article has nothing to do with Reardon. In this case, while the conclusion Reardon has a rotten degree was not explicitly stated, the original research and wording of the paragraph were clearly intended to smear Reardon with the smell of PWU's investigation.--Strider12 (talk) 02:02, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

No, sorry, two reputable sources specifically stated that Reardon received his degree from an unaccredited school. We therefore mention this in the article as a notable and verifiable fact. End of story. There is no manipulation of references, or "smear attempt" - merely the recitation of a notable and verifiable fact, in terms identical to those in which it's reported by reliable secondary sources. MastCell 03:27, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Since it is now clear that this section is not about Reardon's credentials, but is only here to call out questions about his degree, it is clear that this special section near the top of the article gives undue weight to the question regarding Reardon's degree being from PWU. This is a criticsm, raised by Mooney, and belongs in the section regarding criticims, where I have moved it.

Also, FYI, a mentioned before, this is a red herring argument. Most PhD programs in Europe (and even many in the US) have no classroom courses. At Oxford, for example, it is ALL based on the PhD candidate doing original research that contributes to his or her field. With all of his publications in peer reviewed journals, it is clear that Reardon has contributed to his field. That's why in the real world of academics, publications matter more than where one got one's degree. But in this case, ad hominum attacks on Reardon's degree are the best way to distract the public from his actual findings...which Bazelon, Moody, and NOW never bother telling the public.--Strider12 (talk) 04:40, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Please don't insult our intelligence. Oxford is accredited. PWU is not. In the "real world", it doesn't much matter if your degree came from Harvard or Midwestern State U. It does matter if your degree came from an unaccredited correspondence course. For instance, a degree from PWU would not be accepted by a number of U.S. states. An M.D. with a degree from an unaccredited school might not be eligible for licensure. In any case, the source of his degree was deemed notable by multiple independent, reliable secondary sources, so we report it. MastCell 02:25, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Copyright suit -- Get it right to avoid libel

I'm replacing the information about the Elliot Institute law suit which has multiple citations to non-partisen, reliable sources. These are much better sources than the recent KC Star story which had one line on the matter. It is important to get this right because the way MastCell would have it read essentially accuses Reardon of being guilty of copyright infringement...when in fact he and the Elliot Institute were only accused of infringement and never found guilty and the web site shutdown was only temporary. In fact, on the "news" section of elliotinstitute.org you can find court documents regarding the settlement of the case and a copy of the license the Elliot Institute had to use the images that they were accused of having stolen.

I don't object to the issue of the lawsuit being included. We just need to be fair and accurate, and should use more complete sources as it is clear that both sides were trying to spin the press to report it in a way that was most favorable to their own positions. And since the KC Star endorsed Amendment 2, it is likely that they tended to spin it against the Elliot Institute.--Strider12 (talk) 20:56, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

The KC Star article doesn't even exist anymore. (Leads to a 404 Error.) http://www.kansascity.com/115/story/383142.html

The Findlaw Coverage is mainstream and contains detail devoted specifically to the story. I don't see a problem with using the Findlaw article rather than the outdated and non-existent KC Star article. http://news.findlaw.com/andrews/bt/cmp/20060324/20060324perihall.html Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 01:27, 6 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Strider, there are wikipedia rules against threatening liable LIBEL (excuse me for going too fast).--IronAngelAlice (talk) 03:54, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually there are not. LIBEL (not liable) is something that that every single wikipedia editor has a duty to avoid. Libel is written Defamation. Here is a quick legal definition: http://dictionary.law.com/default2.asp?selected=1153&bold=%7C%7C%7C%7C

Misplaced Pages has rules against making WP:No Legal Threats but there is absolutely no policy against making sure that we do not engage in libel. In fact, it's a DUTY of wikipedia editors to ensure the same. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 17:32, 7 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

I agree with Strider12's edit to the Elliot Institute section. Strider12's paragraph reads:

In 2006 the Elliot Institute launched a petition initiative in Missouri titled "Regulation of Human-Animal Crossbreeds, Cloning, Transhumansim, and Human Engineering Is Reserved to the People." The initiative was promoted via the website www.ElliotInstitute.org which mimicked ("cloned") the look of the Missouri Coalition for Lifesaving Cures' website which was at the same time promoting theThe Missouri Stem Cell Research and Cures Initiative. The Missouri Coalition for Lifesaving Cures sued the Elliot Institute in federal court for alleged copyright and trademark violations and an emergency injunction was granted which resulted in the temporary shut down of www.ElliotInstitute.org.Cite error: A <ref> tag is missing the closing </ref> (see the help page).

There is much more detail in Strider12's edit all of which is sourced directly to the Findlaw Article. Findlaw is much superior to the KC Star in the respect. There is nothing POV about it, and it links to a reliable non-partisan secondary source which provides much detail and is specific to the event referenced. The KC Star article is not specifically about the website, not to mention that a link to a topix.com archive is not preferable. I will revert this one edit. We can discuss the others.Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 17:45, 7 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

This part of the article, like all others, ought to be based primarily on reliable, independent secondary sources. Let's use the findlaw reference and the KC Star reference, both of which cover the incident, rather than the Elliot Institute's take on the matter. MastCell 18:05, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

None of what was changed was the "elliot institute's take on the matter." The changes were direct from the Findlaw article, which was specifically about the website, as opposed the the KC Star article which was about the larger vote as a whole. Surely you don't suggest that findlaw and the elliot institute are in on something together? Why change a paragraph to include LESS detail, rather than greater detail, when it's sourced from a publication that covers legal matters? Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 20:15, 7 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Check out the changes now. I changed the wording to reflect the findlaw article, removed the Dakota Voice and Covenant News Links, and added a link to the Missouri Cures website. There is absolutely nothing in the reworded section that reflects the "Elliot Institute's take on the matter." Instead, it reflects findlaws reporting on the matter, and now contains added information and a link to the missouri cures website. None of which were reflected in the previous two sentence version. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 20:18, 7 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

GM, your paragraph simply isn't composed in a detached, summary style. The paragraph reads from the point of view of the Elliot Institute - as evidenced by the link to the Government of Missouri website, the content of which is just a re-print of the Elliot Institute petition. --IronAngelAlice (talk) 20:37, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

How? It's a restatement of the facts from the Findlaw Article. A detached reliable secondary source. I added a link to the Missouri SOS website, which shows that the information in the Findlaw article is correct. The Facts are as follows:

• The Elliot Institute was promoting a ballot measure titled: "Regulation of Human-Animal Crossbreeds, Cloning, Transhumansim, and Human Engineering Is Reserved to the People".
• Missouri Cures was promoting a ballot measure titled: "Missouri Stem Cell Research and Cures Initiative."
• The Elliot Institute website promoting the measure mimicked the Missouri Cures Website.
• Missouri Cures filed suit in Federal Court for Copyright violation, and was granted a temporary injunction which temporarily shut down the Elliot Institute Website.

Those are the facts. Read the Summary Again. It contains all of those facts, as reported by findlaw, and linked to the Missouri SOS website.

Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 20:43, 7 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

New Paragraph:

In 2006 the Elliot Institute launched a petition initiative in Missouri titled "Regulation of Human-Animal Crossbreeds, Cloning, Transhumansim, and Human Engineering Is Reserved to the People". The initiative was promoted via the Elliot Institute's website. The layout of the website mimicked ("cloned") the look of a website maintained by the 'Missouri Coalition for Lifesaving Cures' which was at the same time promoting Missouri Constitutional Amendment 2 (2006). The Missouri Coalition for Lifesaving Cures sued the Elliot Institute in federal court for alleged copyright and trademark violations and an emergency injunction was granted which resulted in the temporary shut down of the Elliot Institute Website.

Old Paragraph

Reardon and the Elliot Institute opposed The Missouri Stem Cell Research and Cures Initiative in 2006. Reardon created an opposition website which mimicked the site of the initiative's supporters; Reardon's website was ordered temporarily shut down by a federal judge as a violation of copyright.

The Old Paragraph is factually incorrect. Read the Findlaw Article: http://news.findlaw.com/andrews/bt/cmp/20060324/20060324perihall.html

Each group was backing a conflicting pro- or anti-stem-cell referendum proposed for the November ballot in Missouri. The Missouri Cures website was promoting the Pro-Stem Cell Ballot Measure. The Elliot Institute was promoting the "Regulation of Human-Animal Crossbreeds, Cloning, Transhumansim, and Human Engineering Is Reserved to the People" measure. The Elliot Institute promoted it's measure on a website that mimicked the Missouri Cures website. That's the facts. There is nothing there from the POV of the Elliot Institute. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 20:50, 7 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

IronAngel, you complain about a summary based on the actual MO SOS website because it literally discloses what the initiative truly says?!?!? Your requirement that only sources that put a spin against what the Elliot Institute and Reardon ACTUALLY say is getting a bit absurd. No wonder you like secondary sources so much. And by the way, the Elliot Institute initiative did not oppose stem cells or even embryonic stem cells drawn from non-destructive sources (such as plancta), it only opposed creating and altering human embryos which would not be allowed to be born. It is likely that Reardon, like most, favors stem cell science and research, but only oppposes the vivisection of human embryos for the purpose of providing raw materials for experiments.--Strider12 (talk) 21:14, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

It's still about Point of View. The paragraph is not detached, and you are both clearly sympathetic to the Elliot Institute.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 21:44, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

HOW? You cannot unilaterally declare "It's still about Point of View. The paragraph is not detached". The paragraph in the article as written is factually inaccurate. I linked to the Missouri Secretary of State Website, The Findlaw.com Article, And the Missouri Cures webpage. All of these SECONDARY UNBIASED sources verify the new paragraph. The new paragraph provides information that is factually accurate and NPOV! You cannot unilaterally revert the information to a factually inaccurate paragraph. The new paragraph is not pro-elliot institute or pro-reardon in any way. If it is, please spell out how!Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 22:03, 7 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

OK. I don't think the current issue, between Ghostmonkey's version and IronAngelAlice's, is about NPOV. Neither version is particularly favorable or unfavorable to the Elliot Institute, and they're both source-based. There is no reason we can't cite the text of the Elliott Institute's petition; the only requirement is that it be done in the context of secondary sources. I don't think Ghostmonkey's version is biased in any way; it just seems unecessarily hard to read. I'm going to take a shot at a compromise version. MastCell 22:10, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you!Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 22:14, 7 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

I read your compromise version. I think it's OK, but would change it thus:

Reardon and the Elliot Institute opposed The Missouri Stem Cell Research and Cures Initiative in 2006, and proposed a competing initiative which would have prohibited all embryonic stem cell research and other types of genetic research in Missouri. The Elliot institute created a website which mimicked the site the Missouri Cures website. The Missouri Coalition for Lifesaving Cures sued the Elliot Institute in federal court for alleged copyright and trademark violations. Consequently, the Elliot Institute website was ordered temporarily shut down by a federal judge as a violation of copyright. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 22:19, 7 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

That would be fine with me, though I would say: "...The Elliot institute created a website which mimicked the site of a pro-stem-cell-research group, the Missouri Coalition for Lifesaving Cures. The Missouri Coalition sued the Elliot Institute in federal court for alleged copyright and trademark violations..." Just moving a few words around for clarity. Otherwise looks good. MastCell 22:21, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

That's fine. Thanks for your input. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 22:24, 7 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Oh, I forgot, do you think we need the link to the Missouri Cures website?Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 22:25, 7 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

I don't think so; the existing refs seem to cover everything. Personally I think the ref to the Elliott Institute's petition is probably overkill, but I don't feel very strongly about it. MastCell 22:45, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

The shutdown was due to a temporary injunction. Such injunctions are granted to give both sides an opportunity to prepare and present evidence. The injunction was granted because there was sufficient evidence to believe there might be a copyright violation. As this case never went to trial, but was settled, there was never a "judgment" by the judge that there was IN FACT a copyright violation. Therefore it is reaching to far to say the shutdown was because the judge determined that there was a copyright violation.--Strider12 (talk) 04:29, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I am with you on a lot of your edits, and I agree this article needs a lot of work, BUT you are wrong on this one. There are four very specific and exacting requirements that must be met for an emergency injunction to be issued. (1) a substantial likelihood that the petitioner will prevail on the merits of the case; (2) a substantial risk of irreparable injury to the petitioner unless the injunction is granted; (3) no substantial harm to other interested persons in the case; and (4) no harm to the interest of the General public. See "In re Federal Grand Jury Proceedings", 975 F.2d 1488, 1492 (11th Cir. 1992); "MacBride v. Askew", 541 F.2d 465 (5th Cir. 1976) "Lundgrin v. Claytor", 619 F.2d 61 (10th Cir. 1980) and "Vittitow v. City of Upper Arlington", 43 F.23 1100, 1108-09 (6th Cir. 1995). If the petitioner fails on ANY of those, the injunction can not be issued. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 13:44, 8 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

A substantial likelihood that the petitioner willl prevail is not a final decision, however. The injunction does not conclude as a matter of law or fact that there was a copyright violation, only that the plaintiff brought forth a suffiicently compelling case to presume that there is a copyright violation until further deliberations can be conducted. If you check "Settlement Reached On "Cloned" Website Allegations" you'll see that the Elliot Institute subsequently introduced evidence that they had licenses to use the contested images. In my opinion, Reardon and the Elliot Institute were overmatched by the highpowered legal team the Stower Foundation hired to shut them down the day after their site was publicized. With enough money, attorneys, and lies you can make anyone look bad.--Strider12 (talk) 23:03, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Of course. So the findlaw.com source touted so highly, which is entitled "Court Shuts Down Anti-Stem-Cell Web Site for Copyright Violations", should be subordinated to your opinions about money, attorneys, and lies. Not surprised, but saddened. MastCell 02:19, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

A headline, or a reporters one liner, is not always fully accurate. The whole article needs to be read in proper context. In this case, the clear context is that this was a temporary shut down for an alleged copyright violation.--Strider12 (talk) 03:34, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Post-Abortion Trauma -- An expanded purging of inconvenient evidence

As most of you know, all references to David Reardon's peer reviewed studies have been purged from post-abortion syndrome. You may want to join the discussion page there now where there is an ongoing discussion regarding the blanking of any views of many other pro-choice or anti-abortion researchers (and the statistically validated findings in peer reviewed journals) which undermine the views of Stotland, Russo, Grimes, and Bazelon.--Strider12 (talk) 04:23, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Are you aware of any on-line locations where I can find the Testimony of Nancy Adler on behalf of the APA before Congress in 1989. From what I can gather from secondary sources, including planned parenthood, she admitted that PAS is REAL (unlike what many wikipedia editors insist) but claimed it was rare. According to Planned Parenthood, Adler claimed that approximately 10% of women suffer lingering depression and other psychological symptoms after an abortion. Whether this is accurate or not, the testimony would be a blanket rejection of the common "PAS is not real claim" made by many editors here on wikipedia. I've been searching the Congressional Record, but haven't had any luck finding a reprint of her testimony yet. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 13:54, 8 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

I don't know about Adler's testimony. Are you referring to the article she and others published in Science in 1990?

I do know that Brenda Major, another co-author of the Science article, reported in 2000 that 1.4 percent of the women she followed two years after their abortions had PTSD attributable to abortion. See Pro-choice Researchers Acknowledge Existence of "Postabortion Syndrome" — Half a Million Affected. See also the south africa study listed at post-abortion syndrome which indicates that the rate may be far higher.

Adler's admission of depression and other symptoms does not equal PAS, at least as defined by Rue. Rue defines PAS as abortion associated PTSD. Other symptoms, like depression and anxiety may be caused or aggravatedby abortion, but are not PTSD. But PAS in the common use is often used to refer to any negative emotional reactions. This causes a lot of confusion. I personally prefer to avoid talking about PAS and instead refer to PTSD, or depression, or whatever.

Bottom line. Yes, Adler, Stotland, Russo, Major and all the PAS-deniers actually admit that some women do experience significant problems post-abortion but use phrases like "Most women do not experience significant pscyhological illness attributable to their abortions." That's carefully worded for headlines, but actually is framed to allow that many women do, and that perhaps most women even experiene pscyhological distress...but not distress sufficient to be called mental illness. Lot's of games like this are played to promote the notion that post-abortion problems are "rare."--Strider12 (talk) 22:55, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Apparently Adler testified before Congress on behalf of the APA in 1989. She expressly admitted that PAS does exist, although she claimed it was "rare" and she stated that about 10% of women suffer lingering depression and other psychological symptoms after an abortion. I'd like to find that Testimony. All I have of it comes from Planned Parenthood's version of the testimony, not the original source. Since even planned parenthood et al are acknowledging that PAS does exist, I don't know why wikipedia editors are pretending that it doesn't. I need to find a reprint of that Testimony. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 23:44, 8 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

If you manage to produce an actual source supporting all of this conjecture, we can revisit it. Please mind WP:SYN and WP:OR, as I find the claim that "Adler expressly admitted that PAS does exist" highly suspect. MastCell 02:15, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

According to Planned Parenthood, the source is: "N. Adler, statement on behalf of the American Psychological Association before the Human Resources and Intergovernmental Relations Subcommittee of the Committee on Government Operations, U.S. House of Representatives, 1989-MAR-16, Pages 130-140." Their version of the Testimony is: "Up to 10 percent of women who have abortions experience depressive symptoms of a lingering nature (Adler, 1989). Similar symptoms occur in up to 10 percent of women after childbirth (Sachdev, 1993; Ziporyn, 1984; Zolese & Blacker, 1992)."

A Similar version to Planned Parenthood's appears on the Left-wing Religious Tolerance Site.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_post.htm A representative of the APA has testified before a committee of the U.S. House of Representatives that PAS does exist, but is less common than post-partum depression after a birth. I want to see the actual testimony, not planned parenthood et el's version of it.Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 03:00, 9 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

OK. I'm not familiar with religioustolerance.com, but I'm not clear that it's either "left-wing" or a reliable source. Nonetheless, while we're engaging in WP:OR: if 10% of women experience depression after abortion, and 10% experience depression after childbirth, then that is evidence against a "post-abortion syndrome" - it indicates that the rate of depression is no different whether a woman chooses to terminate her pregnancy or carry it to term. Right? MastCell 06:17, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I am familiar with the religioustolerance.com site, and not only is it left-wing, it's expressly pro-choice, further it is cited in Numerous wikipedia articles as a reliable source(On site example: http://en.wikipedia.org/Common_Era#_note-RelTolrnc), specifically, it's referenced 779 times on wikipedia: (http://www.domaintools.com/enwikipedia/religioustolerance.org). And NO, your contention is incorrect, as Misplaced Pages editors keep insisting that PAS does not exist. If 10% of women suffer from psychological symptoms after an abortion, then it does exist. You can't equate the 10% who suffer from post-partum depression with the 10% who suffer from psychological symptoms after abortion, as the causation for the post partum depression involves carrying the child to term, whereas the 10% who suffer from post-abortion depression specifically DO NOT carry the child to term. Additionally, if the testimony before Congress on behalf of the APA was that "PAS exists but is rare" that's a far cry from it doesn't exist at all. As soon as I find a copy of Adler's testimony in the Congressional Record, we can put an end to this. You won't believe how large the record is.Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 11:20, 9 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

"The causation for post-partum depression involves carrying the child to term"? Citation? In fact, there are no conclusive data on the cause of post-partum depression, although the hormonal changes occurring when a woman goes from "pregnant" to "not-pregnant" have been implicated (e.g. PMID 8173402, PMID 10831472). These changes occur, to some degree, whether a pregnancy ends in abortion, miscarriage, or live birth. Again, if rates of depression are equivalent whether a woman terminates her pregnancy or carries it to term, that would be evidence against, not for, a "post-abortion syndrome." In any case, there's no point in further speculation. Just provide the source when you find it and we'll go from there. MastCell 20:41, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

You don't need Adler's testimony. See Brenda Major's article in Archives of General Psychiatry, 2000. In a two year followup study of women (with a 50% or higher dropout rate), and using careful restrictive measures to include ONLY cases where abortion was the only factor contributing to PTSD, she found 1.4% had abortion associated PTSD, which is exactly the definition for PAS as proposed by Rue. See also the Wilmouth quote that virtually no one denies that at least some few number of women experience PTSD and other lasting sequalae. The real argument is that not enough women suffer problems to deserve public notice or public policy changes. The argument that "PAS doesn't exist" is a political one which fleshed out really says "PAS does't exist widely enough to bother confusing the abortion issue with it." Look at Stotland's commentary where she famously says PAS doesn't exist. In it she cites as proof Lask and Belsely's studies describing that a significant minority, over 10 percent, have disturbances.--Strider12 (talk) 15:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

More misrepresentation of the medical literature, but at least your M.O. is consistent. Regarding the Major study, it in no way suggests that "abortion was the only factor contributing to PTSD": the authors specifically write that "The design of this study does not permit determination of whether psychological distress reported by our participants after abortion was caused by the abortion or by other events (eg, divorce or job loss) that intervened between the abortion and subsequent assessments of distress." The authors wrote in their discussion: "The rate of PTSD associated with abortion (1%) was substantially lower than the rate of PTSD in the general population of women in this age group (10.75%) and than the rate following traumas such as childhood physical abuse (48.5%) or rape (46%)." In other words, they found that the rate of PTSD in their study population was 10-fold lower than the rate in the general population. Whatever the reasons for this, it is clearly not evidence of any sort of "post-abortion syndrome". If you weren't so persistently deceptive about the literature, you might be taken more seriously. MastCell 21:15, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

You are the one misrepresenting. The quote above refers not to PTSD bu to other measure of "pscyhological distress." In regard to PTSD, Major is very specific. Major measured those specific symptoms ONLY if they were closely attributable to abortion, and abortion alone. See p 779 of her paper in which Majors carefully describes the ABORTION SPECIFIC PTSD instrument is described:

The presence of postabortion syndrome was assessed (T4) with a published measure of PTSD created for use with Vietnam War veterans29 that was adapted to make it specific to responses to the abortion. This measure assessed PTSD using diagnostic criteria set forth in the diagnostic manual of the DSM-III-R.30 Women were asked whether the abortion was persistently reexperienced (in dreams or flashbacks, for example); whether there was persistent avoidance of stimuli associated with the abortion (such as efforts to avoid feelings or thoughts associated with abortion); whether there was a numbing of general responsiveness that had not been present before the abortion; and whether there were persistent symptoms of increased arousal (such as difficulty falling asleep). If these symptoms occurred, women were asked whether they lasted more than 1 month. If so, women were classified as meeting the criteria for PTSD; otherwise, they were classified as not showing evidence of this syndrome.

In other words, her measures attempted to EXCLUDE all cases of PTSD that may be associated with other trauma. As PTSD is often related to multiple traumas, this does not mean that other traumas did not contribute to these cases, but it is clear that the measure was intended to identify only cases where abortion was also a contributing factor of the trauma. This narrow abortion specific questionnaire is why she reports PTSD levels below that of other researchers. Ironically, since avoidance behavior is a factor of PTSD, it is likely that many women experiencing PTSD are not aware or cannot articulate that abortion is the reason they are avoiding, for example, vacuum cleaners.

While Majors goes on to dismiss a 1.4% rate of abortion induced PTSD as not being important, to her, it is very important to the 1.4% who suffer abortion related PTSD and actually confirms Rue's hypothesis. Rue never asserted that most women who have abortions suffer from PTSD, he only said it happens to some.--Strider12 (talk) 15:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

MastCell states: "In fact, there are no conclusive data on the cause of post-partum depression..." In that case, if lack of conclusive proof of a causal connection is a basis for generally denying the existence of mental health effects associated with abortion, why is she not also editing the article on post-partum depression to deny that depression post-partum is associated with pregnancy outcome? Why do different standards apply to abortion? --Strider12 (talk) 16:07, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I've responded in the other forum where you've spammed this comment. MastCell 21:15, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Bazelon's Errors, Biases, and Distortions

For analyses by media experts, researchers, and commentary by persons interviewed by Bazelon, see Symposium: Is There a Post-Abortion Syndrome The contribution "Heartless Bastards" is particularly interesting--Strider12 (talk) 04:45, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

As this source fails WP:V and WP:RS in pretty spectacular fashion, I'm not sure what constructive purpose you hope to gain by posting it here. MastCell 20:39, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Is it not verifiable that Bazelon does not mention Fergusson's research, nor that she does not give any specifics regarding Reardon's findings which are just dismissed? Are the quotes and points raised by her critics not as verifiable, even more so, than the quotes and points raised against Reardon? It is also verifiable that these critics have made these criticisms, and as long as the criticisms are properly attributed to the critic, as opinions, not facts, they are allowable, as you well know.--Strider12 (talk) 22:44, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't "well know" that every self-published or unreliable, partisan website that disputes something in the New York Times inherently deserves inclusion. Please stop the original research, advocacy, and tendentious editing. MastCell 02:12, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

The Human Life Review is a respected journal carried in many university libraries, see for example the Cornell Library. Just as Family Planning Perspectives, Planned Parenthood/Alan Guttmacher Institute's publication is widely accepted as a reliable source, so are many academic publications with a Christian or pro-life editorial slant.

Further, these criticisms highlight that Bazelon is not a "neutral reporter." She was writing a magazine article to prove her preconceived thesis. Trained as an attorney, she gathers evidence to support her case and presents HER case, not the other side's case. Her article is not an open ended investigation to give both sides of the debate--she deliberately excludes Fergusson and doesn't even report any of Reardon's actual findings--but instead lays the ad hominum attacks on thick.

Again, it is a notable article in regard to defining the controversy, but it is not a determinative article of WEIGHT, as you try to portray it, that can be used to exclude contrary opinions.--Strider12 (talk) 03:31, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

The Human Life Review is a partisan source. Since I have not proposed citing Planned Parenthood nor Guttmacher, those are strawmen. The New York Times Magazine is a reliable source. Next. MastCell 05:12, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

New York Times is a partisan source as evidenced by the fact that it regularly editorializes in favor of abortion. Just because a publication has a large readership doesn't prove that it's material is neutral. Futhermore, the NYT Magazine is not even news...it a offered as a magazine providing commentary and analysis. Bazelon's article is an analysis, an argument promoting a viewpoint that the pro-lifers are using the question of mental health effects to promote a political agenda. She does not report on Fergusson or even any of Reardon's studies. She is trained as a lawyer. She is presenting the prosecution's case. She does not present the case of the defendants. The Human Life Review represents the views of academics, and some of those interviewed (cross examined), who point to flaws in the prosecution's case.--Strider12 (talk) 21:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

The Human Life Review is a partisan source. The New York Times Magazine is a reliable, independent secondary source, per Misplaced Pages's definitions. If you disagree, take it to the reliable sources noticeboard, but you've failed to convince anyone here with your arguments and now you're just being tendentious. Next. MastCell 22:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

((Broken record mode on)) First, many people have lists of publications a mile long. There is no point to listing them all. Second, I agree with Mastcell about our use of the New York Times Magazine article. --IronAngelAlice (talk) 23:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Placement of PWU criticism

Criticisms of Reardon's degree from PWU belong in the criticism section along with those who make this criticism. It has already been agreed that it is original research to expand on this by inserting comments or links to articles regarding PWU's perceived faults. And it is absurd to put a separate section in the article for this one point, especially with the heading "Academic Credentials" when editors are constantly deleting a listing of Reardon's peer reviewed articles, even though those form a more importnat part of anyone's academic credentials. Highlighting this criticism in it's own section gives it undue weight Strider12 (talk) 21:57, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

It may be a good idea to merge the details of Reardon's degree into a larger section on his biographical details. However, it is not "criticism", nor is it an "allegation" as framed by Strider12's recent edits. It's a verifiable fact which gains notability by virtue of its mention in several independent, reliable secondary sources. MastCell 22:00, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I'm still waiting for the link to Misplaced Pages policy showing that secondary sources are preferable to primary sources.--Strider12 (talk) 19:18, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I have provided it at least twice already, on threads above. The policy is Misplaced Pages:No original research, and your unfamiliarity with it is evident. Specifically, it reads: "Misplaced Pages articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Misplaced Pages editors." MastCell 19:32, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages policy observes, correclty, that science articles in the popular press should not be treated as reliable. Peer reviewed articles are clearly more reliable, and that is not disputed on the page you cite. As most, it would seem to recommend that preferred sources should be from peer reviewed articles that review the literature.--Strider12 (talk) 17:32, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

No, Misplaced Pages policy does not observe that. You are citing an essay. You can tell by the banner at the top of the page you cited, which reads "This is an essay... It is not a policy or guideline, and editors are not obliged to follow it." (emphasis in original). Please consider re-reading it and revising your claims to reflect that fact. Individual primary sources (peer-reviewed or not), as selected and quote-mined by an editor with an obvious single-minded agenda, are not preferred over reliable secondary sources like the New York Times. There's just no amount of spinning that's going to override that basic, fundamental item of policy. I'm sorry. MastCell 21:14, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, please stop moving the well-sourced info on Reardon's degree to "press criticisms". It's a verifiable, notable fact, not a "criticism". If you feel it's been given undue weight, I've proposed a new edit in which it's incorporated into an existing section rather than stand-alone, but please stop reverting - you clearly don't have consensus for this change, as has been made clear on the talk page. MastCell 19:44, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Please show your proposed change, as I cannot find it. In the meantime, I'm replacing the verifiable, notable fact, clearly relevent material about his credentials as a published researcher. I can add a citation to each pubilcation if you like.--Strider12 (talk) 20:33, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Do Not Cause Disruption by Deleting Verifiable Information

There is guidance from ArbCom that removal of statements that are pertinent, sourced reliably, and written in a neutral style constitutes disruption.1 To quote advice from wp:TEND Instead of removing cited work, you should be questioning uncited information.

Please do not cause disruption by deleting portions of Reardon's bibliography.--Strider12 (talk) 20:41, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Please do not change consensus text. --IronAngelAlice (talk) 23:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I think you're off-base in repeatedly quoting that ArbCom finding. The issue under discussion is that many of us find that your edits generally do not comply with WP:NPOV and/or WP:NOR. Thus, as they are not properly sourced (for the conclusions you draw) nor neutrally written, they do not fall under the purview of the ArbCom finding, but rather that of Misplaced Pages's core policies. MastCell 23:51, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Mast, you are always so thoughtful. I hate to see you waste your time, though. You are now at the point of repeating reasons 2-3 times. You should make a list of responses to cut and paste. And we'll all keep an eye on the page.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 02:02, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

What is not verifiable or not neutral regarding the following?

Reardon has twenty-five publications in peer reviewed medical journals, including over a dozen statistically validated empiracle studies published in the British Medical Journal (BMJ), Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Southern Medical Journal (SMJ), American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology (AJOG), Obstetrics and Gynecology, Canadian Medical Association Journal (CMAJ), Journal of Anxiety Disorders, American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, Medical Science Monitor, American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse, Sleep, and the Journal of Medical Ethics.

If you honestly see anything in it which is not verifiable let me know and I'll give a cite for each publication. If you feel the wording is not sufficiently neutral, fix it, don't delete it.

Deleting verifiable material is disruption and I've started keeping a log so that when we end up in arbitration and editors start getting banned, it will be clear who is deleting material for the purpose of POV-pushing. Clearly, Ghostmonkey agrees with me that this article is being strongly biased by anti-Reardon editors who want to emphasize criticisms and to hide his accomplishments. A list of his peer reviewed articles is relevent, verifiable and neutrally stated. Let's please work together to retain material and to organize it in an increasingly beneficial manner.--Strider12 (talk) 03:05, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

We've been over this before, but a listing of the number of articles and every journal he's ever published in is way out of line with other biographies. Listing his books is one thing; we should do that. Citing his published studies and summarizing his research is one thing; we should do that. Stating that he's published "25 statistically validated empirical studies", and then listing every one, is peacocking. We summarize his research, note that he's been published in the peer-reviewed literatuer, and cite his peer-reviewed studies; but Misplaced Pages is not PubMed and need not recapitulate the results of a PubMed search. You seem to believe that doing so adds to Reardon's credibility beyond what we already cover, but it doesn't - it just makes the article less readable/encyclopedic and more like a promotional blurb. MastCell 04:35, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

And I and Ghostmonkey and others have disagreed. His studies are part of his academic credentials--and the most important part. Deleting these, in combination with giving undue weight to reports that his degree are from PWU (plus original research on PWU that is not related to Reardon), is clearly an attempt to diminish his credibility and to hide his peer reviewed studies. As time permits, I intend to add brief summaries of each study, which is also verifiable and relevent.

By the way, since you have not been able to find quotes from Reardon's book confirming Bazelon's characterizations of it, please move her summary down to the section about her article and clarify that these are her descriptions of the book. It is verifiable that she described the book that way, but as I have examined the book and not found her description verifiable and you have not been able to show that it is verifiable, we should not present her description as fact but rather asw her opinion. --Strider12 (talk) 22:19, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

((Broken record mode on)) First, many people have lists of publications a mile long. There is no point to listing them all. Second, I agree with Mastcell about our use of the New York Times Magazine article. --IronAngelAlice (talk) 23:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

It is not "undue weight" to mention PWU, since multiple independent, reliable secondary sources have found it notable. You seem to believe that Misplaced Pages works like this: "The New York Times said X. I have looked into it and I don't think X is true. Therefore, we cannot cite the New York Times." No. If you can produce an equally reliable source impugning or disputing the New York Times, then we include it. If you simply don't agree with what the Times wrote, then write a Letter To The Editor. MastCell 23:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The PWU material is given undue weight by it's placement at the top of the article and by a separate heading and by your insistence on excluding other pertinent facts regarding his academic credentials.

Regarding Bazelon's characterization of his book, it is "fact" that she made these characterizations and it is appropriate to list them as HER characterizations. But they should not be portrayed as a fact in the body of the article since I have examined the book and found her characterizations to be false and you have failed to find quotes from the book that verify her characterizations. In other words, Bazelon's opinions may be cited as "notable" because they are in the New York Times Magazine, but they are not independently verifiable facts with regard to descriptions of his book. I'm allowing you the courtesy of being allowed to move it to the Bazelon sections of criticisms and attribute it, in the text, with quotes drawn from her article in fashion like "Bazelon describes his book as reporting 'found high rates of nervous breakdowns, substance abuse, and suicide attempts' and as claiming 'proof of a link between abortion and psychological harm'" etc. That is acceptable under NOR policy and reliable sources pointing to notable controversy. But the current paragraph regarding his WEBA research is clearly not verifiable, and no editor has offered verification for it, except to cite Bazelon's opinion. As it is only Bazelon's opinion, it MUST be reflected as such in the article.--Strider12 (talk) 22:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

No. Sorry. This is a news piece in the New York Times Magazine, meaning it was heavily fact-checked before publication and open to correction should any factual inaccuracies be brought up after publication. Attribution via footnote is appropriate; prefacing every statement with "Bazelon claims..." or segregating its findings in a "Criticism" ghetto, because you personally disagree with them, is not appropriate. "Verifiable", in Misplaced Pages's context, refers to a fact reported in, say, the New York Times. It does not require that you, Strider12, be satisfied with it. If you have "examined the book and found characterizations to be false", then write a letter to the New York Times dsecribing these false claims. They employ a whole staff of people to correct factual mistakes. But the fact that you disagree with something printed in the New York Times does not mean it ceases to be verifiable. This is starting to feel like Groundhog Day. MastCell  23:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

If it is not verifiable by Misplaced Pages editors, it should not be listed as an objective "fact." The exception for including it is to include it as a "fact" that Bazelon describes the book in this way. You should know that. Let's stop disputing things that can be remedied just by moving them and better attributing the claim to the source in the text. I respect having material in, even if I disagree with the opinion, provided it is properly attributed in the text to the person who has the opinion. I believe that fits with the Misplaced Pages policy on how to deal with verifiable opinions. --Strider12 (talk) 22:15, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

This shows a remarkably deep misunderstanding of WP:V. It is verifiable by Misplaced Pages editors; follow the link to the New York Times website and you will see it verified by its publication in a highly reliable, fact-checked source. This is the difference between verifiability and "truth", a fundamental policy issue which your comment ignores. The statement is properly attributed, via footnote. We don't mark everything reported in the New York Times as " claims..." and put it under a "Criticism" section. We inline-reference the source, thus attributing it. MastCell  22:21, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

See Attributing and substantiating biased statements as just one policy regarding this. See also General references versus inline citations. Also WP:SOURCES specifically states that "Where there is disagreement between sources, their views should be clearly attributed in the text." In other words, the TEXT, not just the footnote, should attribute who says what. Following these practices would make this article more balanced.--Strider12 (talk) 23:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

More wikilawyering. Those apply when there is a dispute between two reliable sources. Here, there is a dispute between a reliable source and a partisan single-purpose tendentious editor who disagrees with that source. New York Times articles are generally not considered "biased sources" - that applies to sources like your priestsforlife.org citation, or equally to Planned Parenthood. The other pages you cite say nothing applicable here. MastCell  23:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Publications in Bibliography

MastCell has been asserting that biographies should not include a listing of the subject's peer reviewed articles. I decided to check and found that such listings apparantly are common. See Einstein's publications for example. I'm therefore replacing the full bibliograpy. If MastCell wants to remove the letters to the journals, that would be fine.--Strider12 (talk) 21:29, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I think you'll agree that Albert Einstein is in a slightly different league than David Reardon, and that a number of Einstein's papers have acquired independent notability as artifacts in the history of science. A more relevant comparison might be, for example, Eric Fombonne, who has published over 130 peer-reviewed articles - yet they are not listed individually. Rather than produce a rather lame argument and reinsert an edit which lacks anything near consensus and has been reverted again and again, how about trying to actually convince someone of your position before edit-warring? MastCell  22:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

We are not talking about leagues, we're talking about bibliographies. This article is slanted to imply that Reardon is a biased hack. This slant is reinforced by repeated efforts to delete a listing of his works that have been ACCEPTED BY HIS PEERS as evidence of his substantial contributions to his field of research. The undue emphasis placed on his degree from PWU is an example of this and is properly balanced by a listing of his peer reviewed publications. Even if had a Ph.D. from Oxford, it wouldn't make his findings any less controversial. And if he had only a high school education, would that make his accomplishments less or more impressive?

Ghostmonkey agrees with me that the listing should be included. And moreover, consensus is not necessary to include verifiable facts. Consensus should be sought for organization and presentation of facts...not for efforts to purge information that counters a POV-push.--Strider12 (talk) 22:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll ignore the broken record at the end of your comment. It is not appropriate to compare the article on Einstein to the article on Reardon and demand that they be stylistically identical. If you want to perform that sort of comparison, choose a more reasonable comparator. It's clear you're trying to insert a full bibliography, which is distinctly unusual for this sort of bio, as a tool to resolve what you see as a POV issue. Instead of playing games and comparing this article to Einstein's, resolve the underlying issue. You do that by getting people to see your point and agree, or compromise, which you've thus far shown no interest in doing.

There is no "undue emphasis" being placed on his degree. Undue weight would be if I combed through online records and I noted, using a primary source, that his degree was unaccredited. Instead, it's covered and deemed notable in multiple reliable secondary sources. It fact, it's one of the best-referenced, third-party-verified things in the article and warrants a single sentence, which is what it's been given. MastCell  22:42, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Glad to see you've already got this down on your attack page... always nice to see good faith in action. MastCell  22:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not an attack page. It's a log, because I find it hard to keep track of who is deleting all my contributions. I appreciate your wikistalking all my posts.--Strider12 (talk) 22:49, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why you object to having Bazelon's descripiton of his WEBA study in her section properly attributed to her?--Strider12 (talk) 22:49, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

It is properly attributed to her, hence the reference footnote. I object to your attempt to poison the well by prefacing every verifiable item you dislike with " asserts...". As to "wikistalking", please stop throwing out accusations to see what sticks. You're keeping a log of supposed flaws of other editors, including myself - it's hardly "wikistalking" to note that - and it violates the userpage policy in any case, as you obviously have no intention of pursuing any sort of dispute resolution. MastCell  23:18, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense. Bazelon's attack article disagrees with every review article of Reardon's book and Reardon's book itself. As shown above, Bazelon's article has been widely criticzed for bias. NYT checks quotations, to avoid libel, not the opinions of it's free lance writers. An OPINION in the NYT is not a FACT. It is at best a notable OPINION which should be identified in the text as the opinion of the the author.

I have given you an opportunity to find support in Reardon's book for Bazelon's charcterizations, but you have not provided it. The policy to identify views to the author IN THE TEXT is clear and you continue to violate it, see WP:SOURCES. The only purpose served by this violation is to make Bazelon's OPINIONS look like universally accepted facts. They are not. You are the one trying to "poison the well" by filling the article with insinuations portrayed as fact while simultaneously blanking verifiable information about Reardon's bibliography and deleting quotes from his books and works which put the cherry-picked points from his critics into fuller perspective. You have shown no good will toward either the subject, Reardon, or to my contributions. As you know ArbCom has ruled that deleting NPOV presented, verifiable information is disruption. If you don't think the FACTS I include are worded in sufficiently NPOV fashion, edit the presentation, but do not delete them.--Strider12 (talk) 16:19, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

The New York Times Magazine article is not an "opinion" piece, and there's no reason to think that the Times' normal fact-checking procedures were magically suspended for its publication. If there are independent reliable sources (e.g. not priestsforlife.org) which describe her article as biased, please present them because I've not seen them. I am not required to read Reardon's book to verify things printed in the New York Times; rather, if you think the Times piece is incorrect or biased, you can either a) present a reliable secondary source alleging such bias, or b) write the Times corrections department about these factual errors you keep alleging. I can guarantee that the Times will assiduously correct any inaccuracies that they've printed should you demonstrate them. Your tactics make it nearly impossible to work constructively with you, and I'm not interested in responding further to yet another screed filled with the same old personal attacks and wikilawyering. MastCell  19:59, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

See "Symposium: Is There a Post-Abortion Syndrome", (referenced and linked above) which was published in a respected journal of opinion dealing with life issues that is widely subscribed to by most major universities. The articles are by university professors and persons interviewd by Bazelon. NYT fact checking does not go to the level you imply as editors certainly allow magazine articles to have a provocative slant that express opinions and builds arguments. I have found that Bazelon's characteriztion of the book are not accurate. Perhaps she was just reporting how Russo described it. You do need to read the book if you want to verify material that other editors have found to be false, otherwise, just allow the material in the text to Bazelon. That's a simple compromise which follows policy, and retains the claims in the article, but properly presented as claims not fact. This isn't wikilawyering, it's common sense. Why are you so opposed to letting Bazelon's views be presented as her views?--Strider12 (talk) 18:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Your obvious leading, framed questions have been asked and answered numerous times. You cite a partisan pro-life journal, which (like Planned Parenthood, for example) is an entirely different category of source from the New York Times. We're not talking about a "provocative slant" - you claim the NYT article is factually incorrect. The Times addresses factual errors quite assiduously. I am absolutely opposed to your constant attempts to poison and downplay the best reliable, independent secondary source we have for this article by citing a partisan pro-life journal and your own editorial conclusions. It should be apparent by now that an endless repetition of the same argument is not convincing; the options are to bring something new to the table or pursue dispute resolution by trying to get more outside input. MastCell  19:04, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Bad Citation

The article reads:

In a 2002 article in Ethics & Medicine, Reardon argued that in order to be effective, pro-life efforts had to present "a moral vision that consistently demonstrates just as much concern for women as for their unborn children." Reardon therefore encouraged the pro-life movement to embrace and disseminate information stating that abortion was harmful to women, writing:

In some cases, it is unnecessary to convince people of abortion's dangers. It is sufficient simply to raise enough doubts about abortion that they will refuse actively to oppose the proposed anti-abortion initiative.

Both citations to 22 are described as from the Ethics & Medicine article but 22 references Making Abortion Rare instead. Whoever changed this should verify and fix.

Also, the phrase "Reardon therefore encouraged the pro-life movement to embrace and disseminate information stating that abortion was harmful to women" is clearly not only OA but a claim of omniscience regarding waht was going on in his mind. A better transition is possible, but let's figure out which source(s) are to be cited.--Strider12 (talk) 22:10, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Reardon's article in Ethics and Medicine contains that quote; it is correctly cited to PMID 14700036. This entire article is an exhortation to the pro-life movement to embrace and disseminate information on the purported harmfulness of abortion to women. This is the "neglected rhetorical strategy" which Reardon advocates in the article. One need not be omniscient when an author explicitly sets forth a strategy. MastCell  22:32, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I found a copy and do not find the quote anywhere in it. Can you give a page number? For the time being I removed the cite and replaced with cite needed.

My read on it is totally different. He's arguing with a pro-life radical, Beckwith, who is arguing against what he calls a "new rhetorical strategy" championed by Reardon which gives attention to women hurt by abortion. Beckwith argues that attention to hurt women distracts from the pro-life emphasis on the unborn child, which Beckwith insists is the only moral issue that needs to be addressed. Reardon says it is not a "new rhetorical strategy" but a "neglected" strategy which reflects the failure of the pro-life movement to adequately address the legitimate concerns of women pushed into unwanted abortions or hurt by abortion. Reardon is simply arguing with Beckwith to assert that BOTH the woman and child deserve equal consideration and attention, and moreover, increased public awareness of the fact that women are hurt by abortion may be more effective in changing public opinion on abortion in general. Reardon is not nearly as heartless or manipulating as you and Baezelon (or are you the same person?) portray him to be. --Strider12 (talk) 16:31, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Then the cite should be to Ethics and Medicine. The "therefore" is interpretation, because of A he does B. It is possible he does A and B without a therefore between them.--Strider12 (talk) 22:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

It would be absolutely fine to remove the word "therefore", if that is your objection. The cite is to E&M. MastCell  23:19, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Weren't we going to take an action on Strider?--IronAngelAlice (talk) 01:39, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you call in a mediator? I don't know the procedure and don't have time to look it up.--Strider12 (talk) 16:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

New tag bombing tactic

I'm not going to 3R today, but I will remove the tag tomorrow. Strider, you are attempting to influence the article by insinuating the references are biased via tag bombing. Again, please apply for arbitration if you feel your point a view is more valid. --IronAngelAlice (talk) 22:48, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Stop removing the "unbalanced" tag. You are the one making disruptive edits, as defined by ArbCom, in removing verifable material. Leave the banner tags alone. If you really want to work toward a balanced, NPOV article with verifiable sources, try working the material I bring forward into the article instead of cutting it all the time. THAT is how collaboration is supposed to work.--Strider12 (talk) 21:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Articles Books Politics

I've expanded these sections and moved the Bazelon comments on his WEBA study and Grime's "most doctors" claim to the criticim sections. Please try to work with me on this instead of just deleting stuff again. I think this is a good start to restoring some balance to this article.--Strider12 (talk) 23:26, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

No, segregating reliable, independent secondary sources into a "Criticism" ghetto and rewriting the article based on self-published primary sources affiliated with the subject is most certainly not a step toward "balance". Quite the opposite. MastCell  23:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I did not use any self-published sources. Baezlon's opinions should clearly be attributed to her in the text.

I am not trying to create a "ghetto" for criticisms. Clearly it is a reasonable organization to put crticisms in their own section. But if you think it better to have a "he says" - "his critics say" organization pattern, I don't object to that. But even then, I believe Bazelon's criticisms of his WEBA study should be attributed in the text to her, as all criticisms rather than implying that any particular criticism is a fact or that it is held "most experts" unless we identify who is making the claim of what "most experts" believe. If we reorganize to put published criticims from reliable sources next to each of Reardon's publicatios, however, it would NOT be appropriate to delete descritions of his pulications which have not been criticized. In other words, this isn't supposed to be juat a collection of embarrassing facts and article about criticims about Reardon, it supposed to be about the totality of his career, criticized and uncriticized.--Strider12 (talk) 05:52, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your last point. I disagree with most everything else; separate "criticism" sections are generally undesirable. A better solution is to incorporate what reliable secondary sources have to say about someone (positive and negative) into a single narrative. Also, many of the things you identify as "criticism" are not really criticism; they are independent articles or studies from reliable sources about a controversial issue where most experts consider Reardon to be wrong. Segregating these articles as "criticism of Reardon" minimizes them and creates a false and inaccurate picture. MastCell  06:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

What Koop told Reagan

IronAngelAlice has changed the description of what Koop told Reagan from:

...and with the conclusions which Surgeon General C. Everett Koop delivered to President Reagan in 1988. Koop stated that "scientific studies do not provide conclusive data about the health effects of abortion on women."

To:

...and with the conclusions which Surgeon General C. Everett Koop delivered to President Reagan in 1988. Koop stated that the psychological risks from abortion are "miniscule from a public health perspective."

In doing so she has changed the statement from truthful to untruthful. She transplanted what Koop said in Congressional testimony to replace what he said to Reagan.

What the cited Washington Monthly article actually says is:

In a letter to Reagan declining to produce the desired report, Koop wrote, "the scientific studies do not provide conclusive data about the health effects of abortion on women." In congressional testimony, Koop added that psychological risks from abortion are "miniscule from a public health perspective."

Koop, of course, is pro-life. He knows that killing unborn babies is evil. However, as he told Reagan, despite the abundant anecdotal evidence of abortion causing psychological harm to individual mothers, there was no conclusive scientific data on the subject. What's more, he told Congress that the aggregate effect on public health of the psychological effects of abortion appeared to be tiny.

It is important to understand what that phrase, "from a public health perspective," means. It does not mean that abortion does not harm mothers. The risks from Naegleria fowleri are also miniscule from a public health perspective, because it kills only a handful of people per year. To state that something has a miniscule effect "from a public health perspective" simply means that it doesn't cause enough harm to enough people to have a large aggregate effect on the population as a whole. NCdave (talk) 16:30, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

BTW, I have personally seen the devastation that abortion causes to at least some of its maternal victims. The following is a personal anecdote, so it obviously doesn't belong in an encyclopedia article. But it will serve to show why I have no patience with those who claim there's no such thing as post-abortion trauma. I know better. I've seen it for myself.

About a decade ago I did some volunteer work for a small local charity. During a transition, had the charity's phone number redirected to a distinctive ring number on my home phone for about a month, and during that month I got a phone call that I will never forget.

There was a hurricane threatening the NC coast at the time. (We get a lot of hurricanes here!) All over eastern North Carolina, grocery stores were mobbed by people buying bread and bottled water and flashlight batteries. That was what triggered the call.

The lady did not give her name. It was on caller ID, but out of respect for her privacy I didn't write it down or memorize it. She was crying and crying. She needed someone to talk to, and could not talk to anyone she knew. So she called a complete stranger, and she got me.

I didn't have any counseling training, but I did my best to lend her a sympathetic ear. I also gave her the phone numbers for Project Rachel and a Pregnancy Life Care Center], a local CPC which I knew does post-abortion counseling].

She had had her abortion a couple of years earlier, when another hurricane was threatening the North Carolina coast. She'd not told anyone she knew. After the abortion, she put it out of her mind, and just went on with her life.

That worked for a while. But when she walked into a grocery store a couple of years later, and saw the bare bread shelves and the lines of people at the checkout lanes, the walled-up memories burst loose, and she fell apart. (I've since read that that sort of thing is common.)

So she called me. She could not stop crying. She was overwhelmed with regret and guilt about what she had done. She'd have done anything to be able to undo it. She could not talk to anyone in her family because they didn't know her secret. She said she was in her upper 30s, and the child she'd aborted was probably the only one she would ever have. She was a Christian, and an active churchgoer, but she said she couldn't talk to her pastor or anyone at her church because she couldn't bear the thought of what they would think of her if they knew what she had done. She was obviously very repentant, so I reminded her that Christ paid the price for her sin, and God forgives the sins that we repent of. She answered that she knew what I said was true, but she could not forgive herself.

Nobody who heard the agony in that poor woman's voice could doubt the reality of post-abortion trauma. Even now I have a hard time telling the story without my voice catching. NCdave (talk) 16:40, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Woah, that's a giant leap in logic, NCdave. You can't compare abortion to Naegleria fowleri. If ingested, the Naegleria fowleri will cause your death. Abortion, however, does not cause negative mental health effects in and of itself. So, you can't make that comparison. --IronAngelAlice (talk) 16:41, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

NCdave, the above post is a pretty blatant misuse of an article talk page as a soapbox, right down to spamming external links for a "pregnancy crisis center" in the middle of your post (which I've removed). I'm not going to remove the post out of respect, but from here on please use this talk page appropriately, to discuss specific improvements to this article. Also, on controversial topics, it's sometimes wise to avoid excessively and intentionally inflammatory language ("He knows that killing unborn babies is evil") if your interest is in building consensus. MastCell  17:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

1. Abortion and mental health The Washington Times, January 21, 2006.
2. Abortion Causes Mental Disorders www.afterabortion.info
3. Abortion and Psychology Warren Throckmorton, PhD., The Washington Times, May 18, 2007 Viewed 5/18/07
4. Abortion and mental health The Washington Times, January 21, 2006.
5. Elliot Institute Website Retrieved November 19, 2007
6. (audio National Pro-Life Religious Council Retrieved November 19, 2007
7. "Pastors Gather to Meet Challenge of Pro-Life Ministry." Publication: National Right to Life News
8. Bazelon, Emily. The New York Times Magazine. Is There a Post-Abortion Syndrome?
9. Reversing the Gender Gap
10. Remaining True to Ourselves an excerpt from Making Abortion Rare
11. David C. Reardon. Making Abortion Rare: A Healing Strategy for a Divided Nation (1996) Acorn Books.
12. Regulation of Human-Animal Crossbreeds, Cloning, Transhumansim, and Human Engineering Is Reserved to the People, www.elliotinstitute.org.

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