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In the section entitled "Case against Moss," several "sources" are presented as supposed historical support for the claim that Moss was a "communist operative." Two of those supposed sources, "Accuracy in Media" and Ann Coulter, are well known for having political agendas and their neutrality is extremely questionable. Their neutrality is not questioned because the author of this criticism has political opinions that are different from the other forementioned authors. It would not matter whether the sources of the purported historical information were politically "conservative" or "liberal" in regard to their respective opinions; the fact is that they are well known for being politically motivated and therefore are not good sources to support claims of objectivity. Historically, very little evidence was ever discovered that actually impeached Moss, and what was presented was based solely on uncorroborated hearsay (not to mention the fact that she was forced to defend a constitutionally protected activity). The authenticity of the supposed list of Communist Party members was very much in question and could never be verified by the accusers. To cite persons like Ann Coulter, a person well known for her very extreme political opinions, as supposed historical support only casts more doubt on the veracity of the claims. If sources are to be alleged, they should adhere as much to the actual historical record as possible without regard to their own personal opinions. Lottamiata 15:08, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Did you notice you have 4 scare quotes in your writing? There is no place in the article that I say she was a "communist operative". I only supply the evidence from the testimony that she was a member of the Communist Party. It was based on her name and address appearing on a list of those attending a meeting where an FBI informant had access to that list. She also received a communist magazine at her house. Its a big leap to go from attending a Communist meeting and reading a communist magazine to being a "communist operative". I saw the movie Good Night and Good Luck and did research on her expecting to find evidence that she wasn't a member. I was suprised by the lack of evidence. If you know of any sourced material write it up and reference it. I even went through the 1930 census and the 1940 telephone directories to see if there were other people named "Annie Moss" in the area. Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 18:16, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Case against Moss.

I enjoyed reading Mr. Norton's comments and I thank him for them, but I am still not convinced of the article's neutrality. I am perplexed as to precisely how one proves that someone is "not" a communist. This is the logical problem of "proving a negative." That is why the accuser should have the burden of proof, not the accused. So, instead of "looking for evidence to prove she was not a communist" (which is logically impossible), one should be looking for evidence to prove that Moss actually was a communist. This is why I am so skeptical of the cited "sources."

The "Subversive Activities Control Board" is a bona fide "source." Even if one disagrees with their methods or opinions, they are a proper historical source because they were first-hand percipient witnesses or participants in the underlying historical event. However, the other two "sources," Accuracy in Media and Ann Coulter discredit the objectivity of the historical recounting because they are highly partisan and were not contemporary to the events.

Whether "liberal" or "conservative," the opinions of political commentators should only be injected into historical research where their comments were contemporary to the events and therefore part of the history of the subject. Otherwise, commentators used to support a particular historical analysis should be limited to historical commentators whose opinions are not particularly activist in nature.

For an example on the left-wing end of the political spectrum, I would not use something that Noam Chomsky wrote as a historical citation for a supportive view of the redistributive economic policies of the New Deal (Great Depression Era United States History), even if Mr. Chomsky approved of that policy (and I am not sure he did, I am merely trying to concoct an example to show that this is not about whether one is on the right end or the left end of the political spectrum but is instead purely about credibility in the writing of history). Chomsky is well-known for his activist opinions on the political left, but he was not a contemporary commentator of the New Deal era and therefore is not a proper historical source. Lottamiata 22:53, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Case for Moss

This section reads like it was an argument between two sides. They style is poor and uncyclopedic. I propose that the for and against Moss be synthesised into one coherent section--Ernstk 01:27, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The two sections are ridiculously lopsided. Somebody's gone in and added parenthetical responses to everything in the "case for Moss" section, while the assertions in the "case against Moss" section are allowed to stand on their own. This, combined with citing people like Ann Coulter rather than peer-reviewed historians, is a perfect example of why Misplaced Pages gets the bad rap it does on historical articles such as this. --Spyder130 (talk) 18:49, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Later life

Sorry if I stick this in the wrong place- I'm a total newb. Just curious- does anyone know what happened to Ms Moss after the hearings? Did she lose her job? Was she able to redeem her reputation during her lifetime? i would think this sort of information would make a valuable contribution to the article if anyone knows how to locate it.

Proving a negative

I want to thank Lottamiata for his insight with regards as to how one 'proves' or disproves that your not a communist. I entirely agree with his comments that it is up to the accuser to give proof in order to acertain the facts in the case and the witness - in this case Ms. Moss , should have had the ability to cross examine any witnesses the senators brought forth. The problem lies not in the theory but in the practice. The 'control board' seems entirely morally equal with his later example of Noam Chomsky in that - at least according to him. Mr. Chomsky is "well known for his activist opinions". Respect where it is due there is a serious factor in the left/question of what happened to Moss, if one is going to use the example or Chomsky for the supposed left, and thereby brining into doubt the position held by what some call the left. Its equally valid to paint with the sme brush the actions of Mcarthy and all of thier hearing and thier veracity because of Mcarty's activism.

DRCarroll 18:49, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

"Conservative media watchdog organization, Accuracy in Media, wrote: " Subversive Activities Control Board presented solid evidence that Markward's testimony was true and that the Annie Lee Moss who appeared before the McCarthy committee was in fact a member of the Communist Party." "

Solid evidence? Perhaps a change to simply "evidence" or "purported evidence" would be more objective.

I concur that Lottamiata has a valid point. The material offered by AIM and A. Coulter is opinion, not data. Articles such as this should exclude opinions and focus on the facts. RalphS 20:19, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the AIM paragraph as repetitive and current opinion. Elemming 01:32, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages isn't about trying to write about the truth, its a compilation of verifiable information from primary through tertiary sources. Truth is for philosophers, not encyclopediasts. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 17:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Edits by Mark LaRochelle

RedSpruce just reverted a great deal of work, with his only explanation, "Evans is not a reliable source." Unless he can substantiate that, I recommend that his reversion be reverted.Mark LaRochelle 00:07, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Most of the edits you added were quotes from HumanEvents.com; an openly right-wing website. The source author of of most of your added material was M. Stanton Evens, an avowedly extremist right winger who frequently writes for the John Birch Society. These are extremist sources, and as such aren't suitable as references. Their views do not reflect the consensus views of scholars in the field, nor even the views of a significant minority of scholars. See the WP policies discussed in WP:Reliable sources and WP:Neutral point of view. RedSpruce 02:00, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

http://www.HumanEvents.com is the website of Human Events, a national conservative weekly founded in 1944 by, among others, Washington Post editor Felix Morley (in which the articles cited appeared). If appearing in Human Events is enough to get one banned as a source from Misplaced Pages, we need to ban Morley and Novak too, and if such sources taint the outlets in which they appear, we need to ban the Post.

Human Events is not "openly right-wing"; it is, however, openly "conservative." (President Reagan called it his "favorite newspaper," and he was elected and re-elected by substantial majorities, which speaks to "consensus.") If being conservative is enough to get a publication banned from being used a Misplaced Pages source (on verifiable matters of fact, not opinion), we need to ban the National Review, American Spectator, Weekly Standard, etc.; moreover if we are to follow NPOV, we must likewise ban publications that are "liberal," such as The Nation, Counterpunch, Public Eye, etc.; not to mention publications that are "libertarian," "Marxist," "socialist," etc.

Can you substantiate that M. Stanton Evans is "an avowedly extremist right-winger"? Where has he "avowed" this? He is chair of print journalism at the Hall School of Journalism at Troy University, former editor of the Indianapolis News, columnist for the Los Angles Times Syndicate, and commentator for CBS, NPR, and the Voice of America. Syracuse University School of Law honored him for his writing with an Honorary Doctor of Laws. Doesn't sound too extremist to me.

Can you substantiate that Evans "frequently writes for the John Birch Society"?

Instead of substantiating your initial charges, you have upped the ante by making more unsubstantiated charges. Isn't that "McCarthyism"? Until you can substantiate these charges, I propose that your reversion of Evans, Ryskind, etc., be nullified. Mark LaRochelle 11:05, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

The sources you used are extremist and therefore unsuitable. They are as unsuitable as it would be, for example, to use publications from the American Communist party as sources.

It appears to me that essentially all the material you added with these inappropriate references is now in the article with references to valid and appropriate sources. So the only issue would appear to be one of general principals. You might want to take up that discussion on the Talk page of WP:Reliable sources, or, if you look through the history you might find that it's already been discussed. If you find anything that contradicts what I've said above, I'll be most interested to hear it. RedSpruce 13:44, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I've looked over this talk page to try and find any meat to the charge that Human Events is not a reliable source as per WP:RS. I have not found it. I do not think that an ideological editorial slant is in itself disqualifying else how could the New York Times be a reliable source? If we're going to go on that line, we might as well just stick to CSPAN for our politics links and that seems a bit... impractical. So what evidence do you have to knock out Human Events? Or is it you just think that conservatives have ideological cooties and are excluded a priori? You might have a real case here but you certainly haven't made it yet. Can you do so without painting such a broad brush that wide swaths of mainstream journals are not also caught up in your definition? TMLutas 06:11, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

After looking into it, I see that I was mistaken in saying that M. Stanton Evans has written frequently for the John Birch Society; my apologies for that. Anyway, the bottom line is that you used sources with an openly displayed agenda and an obvious absence of any attempt at objectivity or neutrality. Such sources are appropriate only to document viewpoints, as in "some noted conservatives have said 'xxxx'." To document facts, sources "with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" (quoting WP:RS) are required. RedSpruce 19:01, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

"Openly displayed agenda" is not a criteria for exclusion of a source. In fact the words "agenda" and "bias" do not currently appear in the WP:RS guideline at least according to Firefox's text search. If this is all you have, aren't you guilty of just handwaving at the rules? TMLutas 06:11, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

An overt and extreme ideological agenda precludes any "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". I consider this axiomatic and obvious. By pretending to ignore this obvious fact, aren't you guilty of sophistry? Anyway, like I said above, you might want to discuss this on the Talk page to WP:RS. RedSpruce 14:03, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Another interesting forum for discussion and source of past discussions is Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. RedSpruce 14:21, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

You have made multiple charges, one of which you have yet to substantiate (Human events is extreme), one of which you have been compelled to withdraw. You have also not demonstrated that ideological bias automatically means that a publication is not truthful on any point nor that ideological bias precludes having fact checkers or being accurate, something you really ought to do before tossing around such wild charges. Human Events is very well respected by a lot of people, not just fringers (unless you count Ronald Reagan as fringe at which point I think you are the one that might have bias issues). I might consider it axiomatic and obvious that you're violating the wikipedia rules but that does not relieve me of the obligation of pointing out the errors and demonstrating why they are violations of the rules. You have a similar burden. I'm not *actually* going after you, I was making an example of how nasty evidence free charges could become and how unworkable the resulting wikipedia community would be. Can we not go there? TMLutas 19:37, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure where "there" is, but your comment does an excellent job of not going anywhere, so we're jake on that count. RedSpruce 23:20, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

How's this, you engaged in libel (though not the actionable kind) of Mr. M Stanton Evans and Human Events. You withdrew your charge against Mr. Evans but you insist on charging Human Events with extremism without bothering to present evidence. That's out of bounds. Human Events is a legitimate reliable source within its area of competence. It's not legitimate to knock out edits based just on the source being Human Events. You need to go case by case and actually demonstrate that a particular point supported by Human Events is no good. TMLutas 01:40, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Only Evidence

I don't see where the 1999 WaPo article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/2000/markward070599.htm) cited as the source of the statement that Markward's testimony was the only evidence presented of Moss' CP membership actually supports the statement. Am I missing something? Mark LaRochelle 07:22, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't see where Oshinsky p. 403 supports the contention that the CP membership list was "compiled by an FBI informer." Can anyone defend this? Mark LaRochelle 06:47, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

From the footnote on page 403:

The list may have been accurate, although the ones compiled by FBI informers like Mrs. Markward were often wildly inflated.

On page 382 of Oshinsky:

The charges against her were difficult to assess. They rested entirely on the word of one Mary Stalcup Markward, a beautician-turned-FBI-informer who had infiltrated the Communist Party...

Also on page 382, Joseph McCarthy is quoted referring to Markward as "a full-fledged FBI agent ... and not an informer" but I didn't see anything confirming that, and McCarthy wasn't exactly noted for scrupulous accuracy. (I presume the distinction would be that Markward as an "agent" would have been a trained FBI agent who infiltrated the CP under the instruction of her FBI superiors; an informer would be someone who joined the CP, and decided to inform on them, under her own initiative.)

RedSpruce 15:16, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I see in the article linked above that the truth was somewhere between agent and informer as I defined the two: She wasn't a trained agent, but was recruited by the FBI to infiltrate the party, and was paid a small amount by the FBI. RedSpruce 15:33, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, RedSpruce. Excellent replies. We should use Oshinsky instead of WaPo as the source of the "only evidence" statement. Also, I know that Oshinsky says that lists compiled by "informers" are unreliable; my question is: Does he (or anyone else) actually say that the list the SACB said corroborated Markward was in fact compiled by an informant? Mark LaRochelle 20:11, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if Oshinsky mentions the SACB list. I didn't see anything in a quick Amazon search inside search. What I want to know is how you got a copy of M. Stanton Evens' McCarthy biography, and can you get one for me? I'm Mr. Evens' biggest fan, honest! RedSpruce 20:32, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Sure, just post your credit card info here. Mark LaRochelle 23:55, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Article format

I think this article is due for a rewrite. The "case for"/"case against" format may have been okay when the article was much shorter, but I think it no longer works. It should probably be replaced with a chronological account of the various accusations, hearings, revelations of evidence, and notable writings about the Moss case. It looks like the Andrea Friedman article may something of a "last word" on the case, so anyone interested in undertaking this rewrite should pony up the $10.00 for that. Don't look at me, though; I'm willing to offer comments, but at the moment I'm not interested in embarking on such a project myself. RedSpruce 16:23, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Article rewrite

I've completely rewritten the article. It now focusses on the aspect of the Moss case that most books that cover the case focus on: the damage it did to Joseph McCarthy. Although this version doesn't spend as much space on the question of Moss's guilt, it covers the evidence quite thoroughly. According to my research, this version presents the likelihood that Moss was in fact a member of the communist party in terms that reflect the opinion currently held by most scholars who have studied the case. RedSpruce (talk) 00:23, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Pointless

Calling New York Times references pointless is not Misplaced Pages policy for removing them. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 23:10, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

The material I removed was, in my opinion, a pointless addition to the article. It consisted of the following:

• A footnote to the introduction of the article, which included a lengthy quotation from the source (a source that's available onilne, making the quotation doubly pointless) beginning "Mary Stalcup Markward appeared nervous as she made her way into the cramped hearing room on the morning of July 11, 1951...". The purpose of footnotes is to document and clarify article text. The sentence being footnoted here required no documentation, since it makes no statement that isn't covered in detail later in the article. And the citation clarified nothing in that part of the article, but rather gives background information on Mary Markward. I consider this article about Markward interesting, which is why I kept a link to it in the "external links" section, but it served no purpose as a footnote citation to the introduction to the article.
• Another two footnotes attached to the sentence "...she testified that she had seen Annie Lee Moss's name and address on the Communist Party’s membership rolls in 1944." These footnotes simply repeat information that is elsewhere in the article, and they don't directly apply to the sentence to which they were attached.
• Another footnote attached to the sentence "Moss immediately agreed, saying there were three women named 'Annie Lee Moss's in Washington D.C." In this case the additional footnote at least pertains to the sentence it's attached to, but it is completely redundant, as the sentence already had a footnote documenting the same thing.

I'm happy to see additions made to this article, but they should be meaningful additions. Unless I'm missing something, none of your additions met that criterion. RedSpruce (talk) 23:52, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Again I disagree, you are just removing my contemporary references, and inserting in your references. There is no need to delete one to have the other. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 00:45, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

It's fine for you to disagree. Now please explain the reasoning behind your disagreement. Respond to the points I raised above and explain to me what I'm missing and how your edits add value and are appropriate. If you can't explain and justify your edits then you're just doing mindless reverts. RedSpruce (talk) 01:14, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

You could comment intelligently if you have read the actual sources. I don't delete yours, because I have not read the books. "Mindless reverts" is what could be called your changes. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 01:43, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

You aren't understanding my point. This is isn't about sources, it's about what makes sense as a footnote. As I pointed out above, your footnotes do not make sense. They don't add information to the text they're attached to; they don't add useful information to the article. They are just annoying distractions for a reader. The "best" off them, as I explained above, is simply unnecessary. The worst are badly written, confusing, and stuck in at a place that makes no sense at all.

I have read your sources, and unlike you, I am explaining the reasoning behind my edits. You are not doing that. It appears that English is not your first language, so I understand that this may be difficult for you. I ask you to please make the effort to understand what I'm saying, and to respond to what I am saying if you have any response. If you don't have a response, then remove your edits. RedSpruce (talk) 10:16, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

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