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:We shouldn't use this spelling as there is an English alternative, which is "Pristina". ] (]) 15:47, 9 April 2008 (UTC) | :We shouldn't use this spelling as there is an English alternative, which is "Pristina". ] (]) 15:47, 9 April 2008 (UTC) | ||
::Absolutely. If there is a neutral alternative which happens to be used officially as well we should use it (Pristina).--] (]) 16:15, 9 April 2008 (UTC) | ::Absolutely. If there is a neutral alternative which happens to be used officially as well we should use it (Pristina).--] (]) 16:15, 9 April 2008 (UTC) | ||
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===Discussion moved=== | ||
This discussion belongs on ]. It is pointless to do strawpolls on naming conventions on individual article talkpages. Also, a pointer to the discussion should be left at ], since that is the article primarily affected. ] <small>]</small> 18:06, 9 April 2008 (UTC) | <s>This discussion belongs on ]. It is pointless to do strawpolls on naming conventions on individual article talkpages. Also, a pointer to the discussion should be left at ], since that is the article primarily affected. ] <small>]</small> 18:06, 9 April 2008 (UTC)</s> | ||
:I have moved the RfC to a suitable subpage of that MOS page, and made a few adjustments to the section namings to further remind participants that this is ''not'' a vote. If you think a neutral note should be left on any talk page, please don't hesitate to add one: I have now placed one on ]. <font color="forestgreen">]</font>‑<font color="darkorange">]</font> 20:15, 9 April 2008 (UTC) | :I have moved the RfC to a suitable subpage of that MOS page, and made a few adjustments to the section namings to further remind participants that this is ''not'' a vote. If you think a neutral note should be left on any talk page, please don't hesitate to add one: I have now placed one on ]. <font color="forestgreen">]</font>‑<font color="darkorange">]</font> 20:15, 9 April 2008 (UTC) | ||
Revision as of 20:29, 9 April 2008
The locus of this dispute is the manner in which the english wikipedia spells the name of the capital of the newly-independent Kosovo, which is (depending on what source you use) variously "Prishtina", "Pristina" or "Priština".
Statements and evidence
Happy-melon
I have created this RfC after seeing the considerable amount of dispute on Talk:International reaction to the 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence, and numerous {{editprotected}}
requests. I would like to note that per the protection policy no admin is going to make any changes to the spelling without a clear consensus, preferring the "wrong" status quo. Remembering also that there is no deadline, any further ediprotected requests requesting changes to the spelling of Prishtina/Pristina/Priština will simply be disabled without comment until this dispute is resolved.
As an uninvolved editor, I will not be providing any evidence for either side, as I'm sure the editors who are already participants in this dispute will produce plenty of suitable evidence. I would like to ask, however, for high standards of civility in this discussion, and the highest standards of verifiability and reliability in the sources presented. offensive comments will not be tolerated. Happy‑melon 11:21, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Previous discussion
See also: Talk:International reaction to the 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence § The name Hungarians and Misplaced Pages use is... See also: Talk:International reaction to the 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence § EDIT REQUEST - Can we please use the English Language as this is English Misplaced Pages See also: Talk:International reaction to the 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence § Kosovo's constitution spells "PRISTINA" as so See also: Talk:International reaction to the 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence § Edit Request: Change Prishtina to PristinaCurrent discussion
Prishtina
Support because:
- Involving the constitution of Kosovo, foreign embassies, countries, universities, etc. as a proof for or against the proper spelling, will not help in this case. The only authority which has to be taken onto consideration is the municipality of Prishtina and its assembly which decides on issues related to that city. Kosovo has a decentralized administration and as such it lies within the assemblies of the cities to decide on their coat of arms, the names of the streets or the economic development plans. Every outside country obviously has decided differently or just taken some form of the spelling with-ought a second thought or for granted. In Skopje, the traffic signs show directions to Prishtina and not Pristina, why they did that is their issue. Fact of the matter is that Prishtina Municipality presents itself as Prishtina and so does the majority of the population living in that city. Denying them that is unfair. Jawohl (talk) 14:53, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- The argument of using the english speaking form for the city i.e Pristina, is also arguable because H is not a chinese character. It is present in the english language. This argument has also been discussed thoroughly in the talk page so I will not repeat anything. Jawohl (talk) 15:22, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- Facts vs. NPOV vs. POV.
- I do not need t explain POV but rather NPOV which is introduced by neutral editors in order to solve disputes. NPOV when introduced as a solution becomes automatically a POV of the third party which introduced it and as such is nothing more then a POV trying to achieve a compromise. As much as we endorse compromises, they do are not lang lasting and this is a FACT. Now if we were to stick to facts, this argument could go on and on, because there are facts for and facts against. But FACT is the we as the BIG guys have the responsibility to respect the FACTs of the small guys, in this case- the citizens of Prishtina. If the city of Novobrdo/Artana decides to change its name to Neuberg tomorrow. What do you do? consult the constitution of RoK, Britanica, of course you could do that. Novobrdo is not as important as St. Petersburg and the Authorities in Kosovo would not move their finger to stop them as long as it is not against the constitution. So, would we conntinue calling the city Neuberg or Novobrdo. However we decide, their lives will not get better. The least we can do is respect their decision. Jawohl (talk) 16:34, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- The reason why I oppose pristina is because it is easier to spell than the Serbian pristina. The Serbs used this type of cultural oppression to change our identity and create their own greater Serbia. Prishtina is the correct spelling and I think we should preserve this. Kosova2008 (talk) 15:16, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, first this but I might change my vote--Cradel 15:47, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- First: The municipality of Pristina is not as Senior as the Govt of Kosovo and is obviously going to call it "Prishtina" as that is what it is in Albanian and thats fine when in Albanian article, but not in English. # Second: So what if "H" is not a Chinese character. That has nothing to do with this. # Third: It is a weak argument opposing the English spelling because it closer to the Serbian spelling that it is the Albanian spelling. # Fourth we shouldn't use this spelling when there is an English alternative available and we are on English Misplaced Pages therefore we use English not any other language. Ijanderson977 (talk) 15:53, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- That is what I thought too but it seems that some people (including me) tend to think that this word is rather just a "bastardization" of the Serbian word, it has been used by the media and others in the missing of an actual english word --Cradel 16:06, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- I am pretty sure that it's not a bastardization if it's in the constitution. You could say the same thing about Rome being bastardization of Roma but actually it's just an English term. Just like we have an article on Tirana and not on Tiranë etc.--Avala (talk) 16:20, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- That is what I thought too but it seems that some people (including me) tend to think that this word is rather just a "bastardization" of the Serbian word, it has been used by the media and others in the missing of an actual english word --Cradel 16:06, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- So if i went on to Albanian wikipedia and decided there was a word i didnt like, so used the English version that would be ok? Obviously not. You have just basically admitted that your use of the "Prishtina" is POV, not NPOV. Ijanderson977 (talk) 16:25, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- @Avala, Go to the albanian wikipedia and see that there is also an article named Tirana, not Tiranë because that is also a spelling in albanian (only in a different form), and please note that I am not saying it is a bastardization , Im saying it might be
@Ijanderson , please note that this is note a matter of me likening or not, thank you--Cradel 16:33, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- @Avala, Go to the albanian wikipedia and see that there is also an article named Tirana, not Tiranë because that is also a spelling in albanian (only in a different form), and please note that I am not saying it is a bastardization , Im saying it might be
- @Cradel im afraid it does as wikipedia states you are to edit with a NPOV and using "Prishtian" is not neutral, it is pro Albanian. English is neutral as it is the norm on English wikipedia.
All i am asking is for you all to respect the English language. Remember it is countries such as the UK and USA which were some of the first to recognise Kosovo and they use the English language. They are both UN security council members and thanks to them Kosovo has loads of support, with out them Kosovo would not survive long at all. So all i am asking is for you to respect the English language. Ijanderson977 (talk) 16:43, 9 April 2008 (UTC)- Ermmm... , alright then :) --Cradel 17:10, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you Ijanderson977 (talk) 17:14, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Pristina
- Agree We should spell Pristina the same way the EU aproved Republic of Kosovo's Constitution does as this makes sense. Kosovo's Constitution spells it as "Pristina". Please read Chapter 1 Article 13 Kosovo's Constitution Here is another copy of the constitution Kosovo's Constitution other COPY. This too spells the city as Pristina. The constitution has been approved by the EU and according to news it has been adopted in the Kosovo parliament. It's a done deal. There will be no further changes. Therefore you can not disagree with the spelling. Now we must update the articles accordingly. Pristina Municipality is not as senior as the Republic of Kosovo. The English translation for the Albanian version of "Prishtina" is Pristina. We should use the English version for English Misplaced Pages and the Albanian version for Albanian Misplaced Pages. Seems logical to me. Also Google news hits... Pristina gets 1,638 hits , "Prishtina" gets 49 hits . English speakers overwhemingly prefer Pristina. Pristina is also neutral as it's not the Serbian or Albanian spelling. Almost all of the governments that recognise Kosovo use Pristina (see , , etc.). 2008
These two who are very important in the English speaking world and spell it as "Pristina". Ijanderson977 (talk) 15:01, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Note: User:Jawohl has cast his vote several times in this section.--Avala (talk) 18:27, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- Its OK Avala, we are not deciding based on votes. And sorry for the double vote. :) Jawohl (talk) 18:33, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. Misplaced Pages has a policy of listing articles for cities and other geographic entities under their common English name, unless the articles are written in a different language. The Constitutional name of a city, and its spelling at homes, is irrelvant. Foreign cultures can import proper names and modify them in any way they like in their own language, which is why the wikipedia article for: Torino, Italia, is under Turin, Italy. München, Deutschland, is under Munich, Germany. Tō-kyō, Nippon, is under Tokyo, Japan. The overwhelming majority of evidence clearly suggests that "Pristina" is the accepted English importation of both Prishtina and Priština. It was this way before Kosovo's declaration of independence, and it is that way afterwards. A country's political stance on independence has nothing to do with the linguistic fact that Pristina is the correct spelling, and the article should reflect that for consistency with all other world cities and countries. Serbian and Albanian versions of the article can spell it differently if they wish--Supersexyspacemonkey (talk) 15:35, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Support. English language terms should be used in the English language Misplaced Pages. Pristina is not only the official spelling of the city name but also the spelling used in all other reliable English sources. This RfC was opened only after two users who oppose every proposed addition to the article (check the talk page and it's archive to see what I am talking about) opposed this one as well. Abusing RfC by users who oppose for the sake of opposition shouldn't be tolerated, instead follow the already reached consensus where all other users agreed on using the English language here.--Avala (talk) 15:37, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
'Support. The evidence overwhemingly supports Pristina. Google news is a good indicator as to what English speakers prefer and it shows that Pristina gets 1,639 hits while "Prishtina" only gets 51 . The constitution of Kosovo and Metohija spells it as Pristina. Pristina is neutral as it's neither the Albanian or Serbian spelling... it's the English spelling. This article used Priština for over a month, yet it was changed to the Albanian spelling without consensus shortly before the article was locked. If we were following the decisions of the community then we would use Priština as that is what the editors of the that city's article have decided to name that page. But since this article is like a battleground between two entrenched sides keeping Priština or Prishtina is only going to keep tensions higher. Pristina is a good compromise. --Tocino 15:39, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- 'Support. Canadian Bobby (talk) 16:41, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Disagree', google only gives 327 hits on my name but I am much more worth and active then that :) Google criteria can not be used for this issue. And it has been used as an argument over and over again. Please use new arguments. Jawohl (talk) 16:50, 9 April 2008 (UTC) @Jawohol What you have said is completely irrelavant to this discussion, however the google criteria proves that "Pristina" is more popular in the english than "Prishtina" therefore i am to ask of you to remove your previous comment. Ijanderson977 (talk) 17:08, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- Please use a new argument that isn't something to the effect of "Kosovo is Albanian so therefore we should use Albanian spelling." --Tocino 16:57, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- I have a better argument then that, "English Misplaced Pages is English so therefore we should use the English spelling" Ijanderson977 (talk) 17:05, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I was only refering to the request of happy melon, that's all. Jawohl (talk) 17:06, 9 April 2008 (UTC)lease, however, try to avoid duplicating the dozens of pages of text above - arguments on Misplaced Pages cannot be 'won' simply by drowning the opponent in discussion. Happy‑melon 11:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- Pristina is the most widely used English term. It is also the term that official English language foreign institutions use, like the US and UK embassies. However, the municipality's official English website uses the term Prishtina. Furthermore, the newly-adopted Constitution states in its official English translation that the capital is Pristina. The Constitution is most likely newer than the latest update of the municipality's website and has certainly more authority being the most important legal document of the country. This is why I support the term Pristina.
- References
- "Pristina - Google-haku". www.google.com. Retrieved 2008-04-09.
- "Prishtina - Google-haku". www.google.com. Retrieved 2008-04-09.
- "Home - U.S. Embassy Pristina, Kosovo". pristina.usembassy.gov. Retrieved 2008-04-09.
- "Kosovo, Pristina, British Embassy". fco.gov.uk.
- "www.prishtina-komuna.org". www.prishtina-komuna.org. Retrieved 2008-04-09.
- "Kosovo Constitution". www.kushtetutakosoves.info. Retrieved 2008-04-09.
Support for the reasons mentioned above (as the common English name). --DaQuirin (talk) 17:16, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Dissagree because:
- Involving the constitution of Kosovo, foreign embassies, countries, universities, etc. as a proof for or against the proper spelling, will not help in this case. The only authority which has to be taken onto consideration is the municipality of Prishtina and its assembly which decides on issues related to that city. Kosovo has a decentralized administration and as such it lies within the assemblies of the cities to decide on their coat of arms, the names of the streets or the economic development plans. Every outside country obviously has decided differently or just taken some form of the spelling with-ought a second thought or for granted. In Skopje, the traffic signs show directions to Prishtina and not Pristina, why they did that is their issue. Fact of the matter is that Prishtina Municipality presents itself as Prishtina and so does the majority of the population living in that city. Denying them that is unfair. Jawohl (talk) 14:53, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- The argument of using the english speaking form for the city i.e Pristina, is also arguable because H is not a chinese character. It is present in the english language. This argument has also been discussed thoroughly in the talk page so I will not repeat anything. Jawohl (talk) 15:22, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- Facts vs. NPOV vs. POV.
- I do not need t explain POV but rather NPOV which is introduced by neutral editors in order to solve disputes. NPOV when introduced as a solution becomes automatically a POV of the third party which introduced it and as such is nothing more then a POV trying to achieve a compromise. As much as we endorse compromises, they do are not lang lasting and this is a FACT. Now if we were to stick to facts, this argument could go on and on, because there are facts for and facts against. But FACT is the we as the BIG guys have the responsibility to respect the FACTs of the small guys, in this case- the citizens of Prishtina. If the city of Novobrdo/Artana decides to change its name to Neuberg tomorrow. What do you do? consult the constitution of RoK, Britanica, of course you could do that. Novobrdo is not as important as St. Petersburg and the Authorities in Kosovo would not move their finger to stop them as long as it is not against the constitution. So, would we conntinue calling the city Neuberg or Novobrdo. However we decide, their lives will not get better. The least we can do is respect their decision. Jawohl (talk) 16:34, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- The discussion is about the English use of Pristina. Not weather if Pristina or Prishtina should be the name of the city You have said that already. Pristina Municipality is not as senior as the Republic of Kosovo. They Speak Macedonian in Skopje not english so that is irrelavant as it has nothing to do with the English use of "Pristina". The Chinese "H" argument is also irrelavant as it has nothing to do with the English use of "Pristina". You have obviously got the wrong end of the Stick. We all agree that "Prishtina" is correct in Albanian, but not in English. So your NPOV argument is irrelavant too Ijanderson977 (talk) 17:19, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- Support pristina - the most NPOV and I respect the constitution --Cradel 17:31, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
@ ljanderson977 I know what I have said but I do not know if everyone is reading everything or just the things that wants to read. The reason why I mentioned Macedonia, was to show that obviously everyone had its own ways own deciding. As for the government being senior, it is true as long as it is not anti constitutional. Two years ago the assembly of Prishtina decided to remove all the fences around the ministries i.e senior government. The decision was carried out. So much about the government on being senior. It is a very loosely centralized government. Another example, after the war, assemblies (both albanian and serbian run) started to rename streets. These decisions were overruled by UNMIK/Government as anti constitutional and inflammatory. Again, I am not trying to offend anyone by posting twice. Just trying to help out. Thanks. Jawohl (talk) 17:33, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- OK. All i am trying to say is that i understand in Albanian that the city is called "Prishtina" and the English translation is "Pristina". It is only fair to use the English spelling on English Misplaced Pages. If this was Albanian wkikpedia i would use the Albanian spelling, but its English. Will you agree to use the English spellings for English Misplaced Pages? Ijanderson977 (talk) 17:40, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Disagree, because english speaking people who do not know the city would spell it same as the words star or stranger or pristine for that matter. On the other hand, should, shallow and Shanghai are pronounced just as Prishtina is pronounced by albanians and serbs. What you refer to as the english translation or spelling is just something that has crawled itself in the last 40 years. Do you agree :) Jawohl (talk) 17:55, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- This is an English Wiki. Pristina is correct. Beam 18:02, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe it has, maybe it hasn't. But at the end of the day that is the English version which has been adopted long before Kosovo declared independence and because it is the English version it shall be used as we speak English on English Misplaced Pages. Only you and Kosova2008 support your argument, your outnumbered and i think we should be democratic about this and should use what the majority believe, which is Pristina. 2 Vs 9 Ijanderson977 (talk) 18:11, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Of course it has. Prishtina was represented through Belgrade. I am asking you to find english words with st and those with sh and see how they pronounce. If we were discussing the german spelling that is a different case because steuer, schwalbe and shade all sound like prishtina. I thought wiki was not a democracy. I am interested in the long lasting solution not the short one, ops, or is it the sort one. Any counter arguments are very welcome. I am ready to be evangelized any time as long as there is a good longstanding argument. Jawohl (talk) 18:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC) And BTW, since counting counts 4 you, you forgot cradel; so it is 3:9 :) Jawohl (talk) 18:39, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- Use English Not using english means you are violating wikipedia. And FYI Cradel changed his mind "Support - the most NPOV and I respect the constitution --Cradel 17:31, 9 April 2008 (UTC)" Ijanderson977 (talk) 18:40, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- Agree "Pristina" is by far the most commonly used name for this city in English. Third discussion about this in what, 2 days? Húsönd 18:51, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
@ ljanderson977. Rules change, we are not discussing the bible. And we should not repeat the same arguments over and over again. But since you just did, I will allow it to myself as well. Find a 13 year old, native english speaking, who does not know the city and ask him to read out loud the words: star, should, pristine and prishtina. I am really curios. Jawohl (talk) 19:05, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- Thats irrelavant. Try get him to read Pristina. I bet he can pronounce that with no problem. Ijanderson977 (talk) 19:07, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Err, since the name is in english i supuse it should sound different, right? --Cradel 19:11, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- @ ljanderson977. I can scrub my nose with my own hand, in other words don't use my arguments against me if you have none. I thought you might have a 13 year old around. I don't. Jawohl (talk) 19:17, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- What has this got to do with anything? It doesn't matter what a 13 year old pronounces it, it doesn't change the English name of the city does it. Ijanderson977 (talk) 19:30, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Its is about the pronunciation not the english name of the city. The english name for the city, as you refer to your argument, is a borrowed name from the serbian spelling. But both Serbs and Albanians pronounce it with Sh like Shanghai. That was my question/argument. Jawohl (talk) 19:49, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- Ok. But that is not resolving the situation. Please tell me why we shouldn't use the English spelling, even though this is English wikipedia? Ijanderson977 (talk) 19:59, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- I think what he is trying to say is that there is no "correct" english spelling --Cradel 20:02, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- Well quite obviously there is since "Pristina" has been used in English for over 40 years. And lots of Govt official site wich are in English spell it in "Pristina" therefore that is the correct english spelling. Ijanderson977 (talk) 20:07, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- I think what he is trying to say is that there is no "correct" english spelling --Cradel 20:02, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
@ Cradel. Last time I checked, you were not my spokesperson. @Ijanderson977 If you really want to know, then just go through my arguments again. Please. Then we can talk. Thanks :) Jawohl (talk) 20:09, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- All i can make out from your argument is that the people of Pristina are to name it themselves, English people can't pronounce it properly, that the municipality of Prishtina and its assembly which decides on issues related to that city and that the English version has only been around 40 years. This seems like a rather weak and poor argument to me. But there is not really an argument against using the English version, just an argument for using "Prishtina" the Albanian version, which is POV. Ijanderson977 (talk) 20:23, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Priština
Comment: Priština is the official name of the article on Misplaced Pages but I support using an alternative English language spelling Pristina as it doesn't match either Albanian (Prishtina) or Serbian (Priština) spelling so it's a great compromise solution.--Avala (talk) 15:39, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- We shouldn't use this spelling as there is an English alternative, which is "Pristina". Ijanderson977 (talk) 15:47, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- Absolutely. If there is a neutral alternative which happens to be used officially as well we should use it (Pristina).--Avala (talk) 16:15, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Discussion moved
This discussion belongs on Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (Kosovo-related articles). It is pointless to do strawpolls on naming conventions on individual article talkpages. Also, a pointer to the discussion should be left at Talk:Priština, since that is the article primarily affected. dab (𒁳) 18:06, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- I have moved the RfC to a suitable subpage of that MOS page, and made a few adjustments to the section namings to further remind participants that this is not a vote. If you think a neutral note should be left on any talk page, please don't hesitate to add one: I have now placed one on Talk:Priština. Happy‑melon 20:15, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Move the Priština article
If consensus is reached here about the name should we move the corresponding article as well? --Cradel 20:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I still do not agree. Hold your horses. There is no deadline. Thanks. Jawohl (talk) 20:15, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, but I mean if we reach a consensus we must also move the priština article --Cradel 20:22, 9 April 2008 (UTC)