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Clarifying Summarizing vs. Original Research

Let's discuss the general issue and how the WP:NOR article can resolve it. Problems in both Jewish lobby and Israel lobby in the United Kingdom‎ are caused because of differences of opinion over whether a summary is vaguely defined "original research" (or sometimes more specifically "synthesis"). And when it comes down to mere opinion the answer is cooperative editing. So what does one do about one or two partisans who subjectively call every summary they don't like WP:OR??

Misplaced Pages:Contributing_to_Wikipedia#Start_with_what_you_know ...What we are about is researching and summarizing ideas and information that have already been publicized elsewhere....

Misplaced Pages:NOR#Using_sources - Using Sources: ...A summary of extensive discussion should reflect the conclusions of the source's author(s). Drawing conclusions not evident in the reference is original research regardless of the type of source....

Misplaced Pages:NOR#Using_sources - Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position: ...Summarizing source material without changing its meaning is not synthesis — it is good editing. Best practice is to write Misplaced Pages articles by taking claims made by different reliable sources about a subject and putting those claims in our own words on an article page, with each claim attributable to a source that makes that claim explicitly...

Carol Moore 17:54, 29 February 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

I would like to hear more about this as well. Over in Prem Rawat, summarizing a source was described as "conjectural interpretation", following the language in WP:BLP which quotes WP:OR. However, in context the editor was really describing cherry picking of facts, which to my eye would be WP:SYN rather than conjectural interpretation. I wasn't really able to find any guidance about what "conjectural interpretation" means, though. Msalt (talk) 19:06, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I haven't seen phrase. But if you can get the source, best thing usually is to re-write material as an NPOV edit. Carol Moore 05:32, 9 March 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

Agreed. However, in this case, I think it WAS an NPOV summary. The objecting editor didn't even claim otherwise; s/he seemed to be saying that the simple fact of reducing two articles to a two sentence summary was by definition "conjectural interpretation." Needless to say, I think that is wildly wrong. Exactly what we do is summarize reliable sources. Msalt (talk) 18:25, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I've seen some situations recently where someone has edited an article about a US legal concept or a Supreme Court decision in what I felt was an inappropriate fashion — such as by allowing only an essentially literal quote of the holdings and rejecting (as original research or synthesis) attempts to put the holdings in any sort of context — or insisting on mentioning when a case was cited in another case, quoting something from that other case, and then refusing to allow any addition of context or any other description of the circumstances of the other case that might help the reader to understand what Case B was about or why it cited Case A (again, calling such efforts original research). Examples: Plyler v. Doe (including a quote from U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez without explaining anything about the circumstances of the Verdugo case), and Anchor baby (removal of material explaining the background of U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark and leaving just an abstract statement of the holding). I've thought in these situations that it was useful (nay, essential) to provide context, based on a common-sense reading and understanding of the case in question, in order for the material to make sense and reduce the risk of its being misunderstood in a POV manner, but I've had WP:OR and WP:SYNTH thrown in my face. Are there any guidelines for what can and can't be done when discussing court cases in a Misplaced Pages article? Richwales (talk) 07:42, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

In point of fact, you were encouraged to find and provide reliable sources which, in your words, 'put the holdings in any sort of context'. Instead of providing such sources, you made an issue of being expected to do so. The dispuates you are discussing were not over whether 'proper context' should be provided. Rather, they were over whether Misplaced Pages editors should be empowered to take it upon themselves to define what 'proper context' is or whether 'proper context' should be judged by reliable sources (that is, by the same standards other content is judged - WP:NOR being one such standard).-198.97.67.58 (talk) 17:55, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Here's a diff from the Plyler v. Doe talk page, illustrating a discussion we had about explaining the context of U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez. I felt (and still feel) that my statements supplying background for the "substantial connections" quote from Verdugo-Urquidez were clear from reading the case and required no additional sources; the other editor disagreed.

And here's another diff, from the Anchor baby article; please note the difference in the way these two versions discuss the Wong Kim Ark case. Again, I feel that the first version was a legitimate summarization of Wong Kim Ark which explained why this case is relevant to US citizenship law and tied the case in to the continuing controversy over "birthright citizenship" in US law.

So, again, are there any guidelines for what one can do when summarizing a court case without the summary crossing the line into the realm of original research? Richwales (talk) 22:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The Anchor Baby diff you referenced above illustrates what happens when you start using original research to summarize. In the original version, it states, but does not source, that the the Supreme Court found "that the "jurisdiction" language of the Citizenship Clause excluded from birthright citizenship only children of foreign diplomats, children born to enemy forces engaged in hostile occupation of U.S. territory, and members of Indian tribes". The second version states (and provides a source) that "The Supreme Court has never explicitly ruled on whether children born in the United States to illegal alien parents are entitled to birthright citizenship via the Fourteenth Amendment". Note that these two statements are mutually contradictory. Either the Supreme Court never explicitly ruled on birthright citizenship (as per the second - sourced- version) or it did (as per the first - unsourced - version). But more to the point, the issue Misplaced Pages is concerned about is not whether the Supreme Court did or did not do this, but whether an unsourced statement should be treated equally to a sourced one (that is, whether the unsourced statement should stay in the article - in this case because you feel, but cannot source, that it is properly summarizing the court case). I think the answer to that is obvious. There should be no original research in the article.-75.179.153.110 (talk) 12:46, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

The majority opinion in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark went to great lengths to expound the majority's view on how the U.S. had inherited (from English common law) a very narrow view on who might be excluded from being "subject to the jurisdiction" of the U.S. under the Citizenship Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. To give one example, they said the following as a culmination of a long discourse:

"The foregoing considerations and authorities irresistibly lead us to these conclusions: The fourteenth amendment affirms the ancient and fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the territory, in the allegiance and under the protection of the country, including all children here born of resident aliens, with the exceptions or qualifications (as old as the rule itself) of children of foreign sovereigns or their ministers, or born on foreign public ships, or of enemies within and during a hostile occupation of part of our territory, and with the single additional exception of children of members of the Indian tribes owing direct allegiance to their several tribes." (U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 693.)

So the source of my summarization was there — in the court's ruling on the case being discussed. Now, I suppose perhaps I could have explicitly added a note to the text of the article, citing page 693 (or other specific pages) of the court's opinion as my source — and given all the controversy that has arisen, in retrospect I probably should have done that, and maybe this whole argument discussion we're having now might have been avoided. But I assumed that such a note wasn't necessary because the article had already said it was talking about the U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark case, and anyone who wanted to verify the statement could look up the case, read it, and see for themselves that the claim in the Misplaced Pages article was valid.

Similarly, the context of the "substantial connections with " statement in U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez — namely, that the man's only reason for being in the U.S. was that he had been arrested in his native Mexico and extradited to the U.S. to stand trial on drug-lord charges, and that the Supreme Court did not consider this connection to the U.S. to be sufficiently substantial to give him the right to claim the protections of the U.S. Constitution against search-and-seizure activities performed on his property in Mexico — is very clear from the court's opinion in the case. I could, I suppose, have specifically cited U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U.S. 259, 271, where the reader can find the following text:

"JUSTICE STEVENS' concurrence in the judgment takes the view that even though the search took place in Mexico, it is nonetheless governed by the requirements of the Fourth Amendment because respondent was 'lawfully present in the United States . . . even though he was brought and held here against his will.' . . . But this sort of presence - lawful but involuntary - is not of the sort to indicate any substantial connection with our country. . . . When the search of his house in Mexico took place, he had been present in the United States for only a matter of days. We do not think the applicability of the Fourth Amendment to the search of premises in Mexico should turn on the fortuitous circumstance of whether the custodian of its nonresident alien owner had or had not transported him to the United States at the time the search was made."

and similar discussions in various other parts of the ruling, which would make it clear to any reader with an understanding of how to do U.S. legal research that this was the context in which the court had made its "substantial connections" statement. But again, I assumed (and still assume) that such a citation of a specific portion of the court's opinion as a source for the summarization in the Misplaced Pages article was not necessary, since the case itself was already explicitly under discussion, and anyone who wanted to verify the claimed summary would already have the tools at hand to do so by looking up the case and studying it for themselves.

If the accepted policy of Misplaced Pages is, in fact, that summarizations of this sort are not sufficiently verifiable, and thus cannot be made, without explicitly noting specific portions of a source text that has already been cited in general as part of the discussion (or perhaps that is the very subject of the article), then OK, I'll try to do that from now on. However, I think that would be an overly burdensome load of bureaucracy to put on editors, for no significant net gain to the quality of the writing in Misplaced Pages, and I think it would establish a risky precedent for (e.g.) articles on topics (such as scientific subjects) where an understanding in both breadth and depth may be required in order to discuss the topic at all intelligibly, and where requiring editors to quote "chapter and verse" for each and every sentence of an article is simply not a reasonable expectation and will drive would-be contributors away to no good end. Richwales (talk) 15:32, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

If the court really did make it as clear as you claim they did, then you should have no trouble at all finding a reliable source which agrees with you that the court made it so clear. The only reliable source which has been provided on the issue states the opposite. Why do you think you are unable to find a source which agrees with you that the court made this so clear and I was able to find a source which states the opposite?-75.179.157.247 (talk) 17:12, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I assume this is the same person making all these different contributions from various IP addresses, right? — but do you think you could please confirm that fact for the other people reading this thread, so everyone will understand that all these different addresses do not represent either (1) several separate editors who all happen to agree, or (2) a single editor engaging in sockpuppetry? This would be another reason, actually, why creating your own Misplaced Pages account (which would, BTW, hide your IP address or addresses from public view) would probably be a good thing if you're going to be doing a lot of editing — though that, to be sure, is probably a discussion belonging somewhere else, and I don't want to distract people unduly and would again be very grateful if some other people who have not yet become involved in this particular OR/sources argument could step in and offer us some outside input. Richwales (talk) 19:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

There are several personal reasons why I don't use an account. Yes, I understand the advantages of using one. However, there are disadvantages to using one as well. Regardless, this is off topic. As for sock puppetry, sock puppetry only becomes a violation when used in a number of prohibited ways (for example, used to vote more than once in a poll, used to engage in disruptive edits, used to artificially stir up controversy, etc.). I don't use IP anon edits in any prohibited manner. I'm very careful to vote only once in polls, I don't use IP anon edits as a cover for disruptive edits, etc. However, this is a side issue. Let's refocus on what this discussion is really about - whether unsourced disputed material belongs in Misplaced Pages articles.-75.179.153.110 (talk) 00:59, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

And in addition to "whether unsourced disputed material belongs in Misplaced Pages articles", I want to focus on whether the kinds of material which I've been trying to include, and which you've been disputing, really is sourced or not. I claim it is sourced, because if a court ruling is the topic under discussion, the written record of the ruling itself is the best possible source of what the ruling was about. And I claim that the sort of common sense required to read and understand a court ruling, and to summarize the salient points thereof, is a totally legitimate activity, not "unsourced" and not "original research".

Since we still don't seem to be getting any outside input on this question, and since the basis for the question could involve the question of what sources are reliable (as well as whether sources are present at all), I would propose to stick a note on the "reliable sources" noteboard (WP:RSN) — not necessarily with a view toward moving the discussion off here and over there, but just to alert people there and see if any of them are willing to join the discussion here (or if they really want to take over and pull the discussion onto that other noteboard). I can't take the time to do this right now, but hopefully later tonight. Richwales (talk) 01:32, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The opinions themselves are primary sources, and the relevant policy reads:

To the extent that part of an article relies on a primary source, it should:

• only make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and
• make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source. Do I understand correctly that your anon opponent in this debate has a secondary source which contradicts (at least as regards the status of offspring) what you see as the plain meaning of the primary source? Andyvphil (talk) 10:18, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I realize your question was directed to Richwales, but I can answer it.

Yes, a secondary source has been provided which contradicts Richwales' interpretation of what the court case stated. As was mentioned earlier in this thread (12:46, 29 March 2008), "In the original version, it states, but does not source, that the the Supreme Court found "that the "jurisdiction" language of the Citizenship Clause excluded from birthright citizenship only children of foreign diplomats, children born to enemy forces engaged in hostile occupation of U.S. territory, and members of Indian tribes". The second version states (and provides a source) that "The Supreme Court has never explicitly ruled on whether children born in the United States to illegal alien parents are entitled to birthright citizenship via the Fourteenth Amendment". Note that these two statements are mutually contradictory. Either the Supreme Court never explicitly ruled on birthright citizenship (as per the second - sourced- version) or it did (as per the first - unsourced - version)." The source in the second version is a secondary source (The Heritage Guide to the Constitution ISBN 159698001X.).-75.179.153.110 (talk) 14:49, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Let me first repeat the quote from the majority opinion in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark which I mentioned earlier:

The fourteenth amendment affirms the ancient and fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the territory, in the allegiance and under the protection of the country, including all children here born of resident aliens, with the exceptions or qualifications (as old as the rule itself) of children of foreign sovereigns or their ministers, or born on foreign public ships, or of enemies within and during a hostile occupation of part of our territory, and with the single additional exception of children of members of the Indian tribes owing direct allegiance to their several tribes. (U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 693.) My slip-up for not having mentioned the part about "born on foreign public ships" previously; sorry about that.

I really don't see a fatal contradiction between the above quote (or my summarization thereof) and the commentary about birthright citizenship in the Heritage Foundation's book. Wong Kim Ark did not explicitly address the question of US-born children of illegal immigrants because that wasn't a point at issue in this case: Wong's parents were, at the time of his birth in San Francisco, in the US legally, albeit not US citizens (and in fact ineligible for US naturalization under the laws in effect at the time). So the Heritage book's statement is perfectly OK as far as I can tell. To be sure, I've read some suggestions (albeit mostly in anti-immigration blogs) that any future case involving a US-born child of illegal alien parents would easily and obviously be distinguished from Wong Kim Ark on this point — though, of course, we'll never know about this for certain until/unless such a case actually materializes and is heard and ruled upon by the Supreme Court.

I think a blending of what both of us have been saying would be reasonable and ought to be acceptable, as long as the following points are suitably covered (including sources such as those described below):

• Senator Jacob Howard, in 1866, said in Congress that the newly proposed Fourteenth Amendment would not confer citizenship upon "persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors, or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States". (This quote can be found in the Congressional Globe, 39th Congress, 1st Session, p. 2980, May 30, 1866.)

• Despite such assertions by Senator Howard and others (see various comments in the Wong Kim Ark opinion, especially in the dissent), the Supreme Court ruled in 1898 (U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark) that the Fourteenth Amendment conferred citizenship to everyone born in the US, except for the groups mentioned in the above quote from the majority opinion (i.e., children of foreign sovereigns or diplomats, those born on foreign ships, those born in a context of enemy occupation of US territory, and members of Indian tribes). We should note, too, that Indians born in the US were eventually recognized as US citizens via the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924; and as for children born on foreign-registered ships in US waters, someone should research that and mention (along with a suitable source) any current law on this point.

• Wong's parents were in the US legally at the time of his birth (this point can, if necessary, be sourced from material in the Wong Kim Ark case), and the Supreme Court's ruling in the Wong Kim Ark case did not explicitly address the question of whether or not a US-born child of illegal immigrants has US citizenship under the Fourteenth Amendment (the aforementioned quote from the Heritage Foundation book can be used as a source for this observation).

• Some attempts have been made to have US-born children of illegal aliens declared not to be US citizens — either by bills proposing new federal legislation to define/redefine "jurisdiction" in the Citizenship Clause (such as H.R. 133 and H.R. 1940 in the current, 110th, Congress, and H.R. 698 and H.R. 3938 in the 109th Congress), or by proposals to amend the Constitution to deny birthright citizenship to such children (such as H.J.Res. 46 in the 110th Congress, and H.J.Res. 46 in the 109th Congress). No such proposal, however, has ever been passed by Congress — or, for that matter, even been voted upon by either house of Congress. It should also be mentioned that if a federal law of this sort were to be enacted by Congress, it is not clear how a future Supreme Court might rule on the constitutionality of such a law.

Comments on this outline proposal? Richwales (talk) 18:52, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

As what I hope is a "reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge" I see a problem with the "unsourced" version having to do with the appearance of the phrase "including all children here born of resident aliens" in the quoted opinion. Clearly if you simply parse the sentence it is merely an unnecessary appendage that doesn't change the meaning. And the "unsourced" version treats it that way. But that's not necessarily the way Constitutional law works. Witness the Second Amendment, where the appendage-like "militia" phrase is the subject of so much debate. There appears to be a reasonable argument that those born to aliens who are not "resident" have a different status, somehow. And the supposedly exhaustive list of those excluded from birthright citizenship doesn't appear to be an exhaustive list of those born to nonresident aliens. Can you justify excluding this complication from your exegesis without "analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative" argument? (Or with it, as a matter of interest, rather than OR policy.) Andyvphil (talk) 14:04, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Andyvphil, you're certainly bringing up a reasonable point. As I said, since Wong's parents were living in the US (not just passing through), and they were in the US legally, the Wong Kim Ark case simply doesn't deal directly with the legal-vs.-illegal immigrant parent question that has become such a big issue today. And that makes it hard for us, today, to talk about what Wong Kim Ark means without (intentionally or not) taking a position on today's hot topic. Indeed, I think it's safe to say that any source that talks about Wong Kim Ark is at risk of being perceived as POV, by one camp or the other, vis-à-vis the specific issue of US-born children of illegal aliens — just as any discussion of what the Second Amendment means is liable to be criticized by supporters of one or the other interpretation of "a well-regulated militia".

The matter is perhaps complicated by the way the term "resident alien" is customarily used nowadays in the US as a synonym for "lawful permanent resident".

The quickest reply I can think of to your point would be to note that the same paragraph that talks about "including all children here born of resident aliens" also mentions — as an exception to this category — children "of enemies within and during a hostile occupation of part of our territory". If you're looking for an example of aliens on US soil (but not legally), members of an invading army would seem to be about as illegal as you can get — and yet the Supreme Court majority in Wong Kim Ark felt it perfectly natural to mention this as an explicit exception to the general "resident alien parents" concept which they were propounding.

Elsewhere in the Wong Kim Ark opinion (page 657), the majority wrote about how English common law — which the court argued must be considered when interpreting the US Constitution — deemed the English-born children of foreigners to be English subjects "whether the parents were settled, or merely temporarily sojourning, in the country". Again, the specific question of children of illegal aliens just didn't come up in any of this, but this second quote should show that the Supreme Court majority did not see their argument as hinging on the single question of whether Wong's parents were "living" in the US (as opposed to just temporarily visiting or "passing through").

And, as I proposed earlier, I have no qualms at all about having a description of Wong Kim Ark point out that Wong's parents were in the US legally at the time of his birth, and that this case did not specifically address the question of legal vs. illegal alien parents, and that that question remains unresolved in the eyes of some people. Richwales (talk) 16:29, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

As you said, "the specific question of children of illegal aliens just didn't come up in any of this". This means that not only is this an issue of whether or not original research belongs in the article, its a question of whether original research about Obiter dictum belongs in the article - in other words, its not only a question about original research, it also raises questions of relevancy.((unsigned, by ??))

Richwales, you write "the same paragraph that talks about 'including all children here born of resident aliens' also mentions — as an exception to this category...", but actually it's not at all clear the the "enemies within" etc. exceptions are exceptions to the "resident aliens" category. Rather, and I am here contradicting my suggestion that the "resident aliens" clause suggests that some different rule may apply to nonresident aliens, I think the most plausible reading of the quote is that the general rule is the sentence without the interpolated phrase "including all children here born of resident aliens" (and the general rule is, btw, not obiter dicta, but fundamental to the decision), but that that phrase is interpolated into the general rule simply to explicitly include the catagory to which Wong Kim Ark belonged. Then, assuming only that it is absolutely clear that in the phrase "birth within the territory, in the allegiance and under the protection of the country" it is absolutely clear that it is the territory, not the birth, that must be "in the allegiance" I am led to agree with the language: "the Supreme Court ruled in an 1898 case that the "jurisdiction" language of the Citizenship Clause excluded from birthright citizenship only children of foreign diplomats, children born to enemy forces engaged in hostile occupation of U.S. territory, children born on foreign public ships and members of Indian tribes". But I think you should find a RS for this conclusion rather than rely on such subtle, even if accurate, argument. Andyvphil (talk) 14:23, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, if a secondary source supporting an expansive interpretation of birthright citizenship per Wong Kim Ark is truly necessary or would really help, here's one:

• Congressional Quarterly: "Toward a More Perfect Defintion of 'Citizen'"

Richwales (talk) 02:46, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, so Balkin says “Wong Kim Art seems to suggest the statute would be unconstitutional. But you could distinguish that it does not specifically involve illegal aliens.” and Deal asserts "We haven’t had a square ruling on that yet". So your language "the Supreme Court ruled in an 1898 case that the "jurisdiction" language of the Citizenship Clause excluded from birthright citizenship only..." is not an uncontroversal reading of the primary source. So where we come out, I think, is that you can quote the primary source, quote (Eastman) the opinion that the ruling means what you said it means (but is a misreading of original intent), and quote Balkin that it's not so clear. And your original text was legitimately deemed not acceptable (even though I think it's right -- I think I'm with Eastman on both parts, given your quote of Howard.) Andyvphil (talk) 15:29, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The quotes of interest in this article (that I identify) are

• Balkin says, “Wong Kim Art seems to suggest the statute would be unconstitutional. But you could distinguish that it does not specifically involve illegal aliens.” He also sayd that what the court would do is difficult to predict.
• Deal says, "We haven’t had a square ruling on that yet".
• Alito says, "There are active legal disputes about the meaning of that provision at this time"
• Eastman says that the court "misread" the citizenship clause 14 years later in United States v. Wong Kim Ark and that Congress understood a clear distinction between “basic territorial jurisdiction” such as traffic laws, and “complete jurisdiction”, which encompasses a person’s allegiance to a nation (However, Eastman does not say that the court ruled that citizenship was extended to everyone born in U.S. territory)

Now, the debate we're having is whether these quotes support the claim that the Supreme Court found "that the "jurisdiction" language of the Citizenship Clause excluded from birthright citizenship only children of foreign diplomats, children born to enemy forces engaged in hostile occupation of U.S. territory, and members of Indian tribes". The best support I can find for that claim is in Balkin's statement, "Wong Kim Art seems to suggest the statute would be unconstitutional" - if you divorce that quote from what comes after it. Statements like "We haven’t had a square ruling on that yet", and "There are active legal disputes about the meaning of that provision at this time" are saying that the court reached no such finding (because if the court had reached such a finding, it wouldn't be up for debate). The statement by Eastman doesn't even address the issue one way or the other.-198.97.67.56 (talk) 17:41, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Un, no. Per the cite, Eastman is looking at the text of the 14th and reading "jurisdiction" as "complete jurisdiction" but asserting that the court misread it as "basic territorial jurisdiction”, and therefor did wrongly exclude only the enumerated categories (plus the public boats correction), not allowing for a broader "allegiance" exception. And there can indeed be active legal disputes about something the court has already ruled on since stare decisis is not absolute (see Brown, or the prospect of a retraction of Roe.). Andyvphil (talk) 23:08, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Here are a couple more sources which address the Wong Kim Ark case.

• "U.S. Citizenship of Persons Born in the United States to Alien Parents" — an analysis by the Congressional Research Service, a public policy research arm of Congress. Order code RL33079 (September 13, 2005). I found a copy of this report here.

• "Legislation Denying Citizenship at Birth to Certain Children Born in the United States" — testimony given before two subcommittees of the House Judiciary Committee on December 13, 1995, by an official of the Justice Department (an Assistant Attorney General), arguing that a bill proposing to limit birthright citizenship via a narrowed definition of 14th Amendment "jurisdiction" was unconstitutional on its face. I found this testimony here.

Sample quotes from the above:

• From the CRS paper: here birth in the United States was clear, a child of Chinese parents was, in the Court’s opinion, definitely a citizen under the Fourteenth Amendment, even though Chinese aliens were ineligible to naturalize under then-existing law. The Court rejected the argument that the child was born subject to the jurisdiction of the Chinese emperor and outside the jurisdiction of the United States because his allegiance and citizenship derived from his parents’ remaining subjects to the Chinese emperor . . . . The Court held that the Fourteenth Amendment affirmed the traditional jus soli rule, including the exceptions of children born to foreign diplomats, to hostile occupying forces or on foreign public ships, and added a new exception of children of Indians owing direct allegiance to their tribes. It further held that the "Fourteenth Amendment . . . has conferred no authority upon Congress to restrict the effect of birth, declared by the Constitution to constitute a sufficient and complete right to citizenship" . . . .

• From the Justice Dept. official's testimony: The phrase "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" was meant to reflect the existing common law exception for discrete sets of persons who were deemed subject to a foreign sovereign and immune from U.S. laws, principally children born in the United States of foreign diplomats, with the single additional exception of children of members of Indian tribes. Apart from these extremely limited exceptions, there can be no question that children born in the United States of aliens are subject to the full jurisdiction of the United States. And, as consistently recognized by courts and Attorneys General for over a century, most notably by the Supreme Court in United States v. Wong Kim Ark, there is no question that they possess constitutional citizenship under the Fourteenth Amendment. . . . The principles set forth in Wong Kim Ark cannot be dismissed as having been overtaken by contemporary judicial interpretation or current events. Both the courts and commentators have consistently cited and followed the principles of Wong Kim Ark.

The Congressional Research Service's mission is to be a nonpartisan body supplying objective analysis and research to all members and staff of Congress. I would propose that this is a valid source for a statement that Wong Kim Ark ruled in favor of citizenship for everyone born in the US (subject only to the short list of exceptions mentioned). Again, I would have no problem with juxtaposing another statement after this to the effect that Wong Kim Ark did not explicitly address the question of US-born children of illegal aliens, and that some people consider this question to remain unresolved.

The Justice Department testimony clearly takes one side of the question (and thus, standing alone, would be presenting this position in an unacceptably POV fashion). However, I think it's worth including in any discussion of Wong Kim Ark and birthright citizenship, since it is a position being articulated by someone who evidently had clearance to speak on behalf of an arm of the US federal government (though, admittedly, even that fact may not impress some who are wedded to an opposing view).

As I mentioned earlier, the subject of birthright citizenship in the US is inherently controversial, and it's probably impossible to find any analysis of Wong Kim Ark from any source that everyone is going to accept as being NPOV. Even the quote from the Heritage Guide to the Constitution is likely going to be suspect in the eyes of some, since this work was published under the auspices of the Heritage Foundation, a right-wing think tank which has publicly taken the position that 14th Amendment "jurisdiction" should be interpreted so as to deny birthright citizenship to US-born children of illegal aliens. Richwales (talk) 06:56, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, it looks like maybe we've managed to take this discussion about the Wong Kim Ark out of the realm of "no original research". Any further talk would probably fall under either the subject of NPOV and/or "reliable sources".

I had another issue I wanted feedback on (discussion of U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez in the context of Plyler v. Doe) — but this current section has become so long that I think it would probably be better to start a new section — which I'll do in the next day or two. Richwales (talk) 19:52, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Does referencing a third-party dictionary definition constitute OR?

This is a question about whether linking to a dictionary definition (or a similar source of term definitions) constitutes OR when that dictionary contradicts another source's use of the word.

Specifically, this is about The Exorcist (film) and its use of images that briefly flash on screen. One set of sources call these subliminal images/subliminal edits. Another set of sources refer to them as "semi-subliminal" or "not truly subliminal". In addition to these sources, would further discussion of (and links to) the technical meaning of "subliminal", as presented in dictionaries and psychology texts, be considered OR? -Clueless (talk) 23:07, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Original synthesis prohibits making the sorts of inferences, "John says X implies A, Bob says X implies B, therefore, John is wrong." So what you're suggesting could be construed as original research. There's a very easy way around that, however, and that's to link to the most relevant Misplaced Pages article on the subject. That way, interested readers can follow the link and find out about all significant interpretations and meanings of the phrase, assuming we actually have a decent article on. Someguy1221 (talk) 23:03, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the response. Would it be appropriate, then, to merely point out that "John says X implies A, but Bob says X means B" (without the "therefore, John is wrong")? -Clueless (talk) 23:15, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that mere juxtaposition of such facts can be a violation of original research if one of the sources is not about the subject of the article. And the reasoning is pretty simple. If a source is being used that actually has nothing to do with the article's subject, than its viewpoint is either entirely irrelevant or it is being used to make an argument it doesn't actually support. And such arguments are precisely what WP:SYN exists to prevent, and it doesn't matter if the argument is explicit or implicit. So in your example above, Bob's opinion on X is either irrelevant or it's being used to suggest that the movie doesn't contain subliminal images, and if Bob never mentioned the movie, we can't use him to make that argument, even if we never go all the way and say it. Someguy1221 (talk) 23:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Someguy1221. That clarifies things :) -Clueless (talk) 23:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Someguy gets it right... but I do want to clarify further... if Bob says "The Exorcist contains subliminal editing" and Joe says "No the Excorcist contains semi-subliminal edits" both opinions can be mentioned in the article on the Excorcist. That is not a synthesis, it is a juxtaposition of facts backed by reliable sources (at least I assume they are reliable). The synthesis would occur by your adding "The Dictionary defines a subliminal edit as 'X'..." Since the dictionary is not specifically defining the term in the context of discussing The Exorcist. By including the dictionary definition you are implying that either Bob or Joe is wrong, even if you don't spell it out. To include the dictionary definition, it would would have to specifically mention The Exorcist in the context of defining the term. The only exception to this would be if either Joe or Bob (the sources) mentioned a specific dictionary's definition in the context of discussing the Exorcist. At which point, that specific dictionary's definition can be discussed further in the article. Blueboar (talk) 01:47, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Citing a dictionary definition is not "original research". Also there's no consensus that "original research by juxtaposition" exists, though there is an essay on the WP:RELEVANCE of what to bring to the article. Though if it was me editing the article, I would simply put "subliminal" in quotes to convey that the images flashed may not technically be "subliminal" in the strict sense and either leave it at that or put an explanation in a footnote. I would also avoid wording like "accused" because it makes it sound like some group made a fuss about the film clips, which I don't know if that is so or not. There was a _lot_ of controversy over subliminal messages in music years ago and we don't want the reader making assumptions about whether that movie was part of that controversy. Squidfryerchef (talk) 04:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Squidfryerchef, thank you for your input. This seems to complicate matters some, however, since you seem to disagree with the above posters. What would the proper procedure be, in this case, to see whose interpretation of the rules is more accurate? Or should we try to arrive at a consensus of some sort...? I'm new to NOR debates and I'm unsure how to continue at this point. -Clueless (talk) 07:48, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The WP:NOR policy has an example ( the "Smith/Jones" example ) about how it would be original research to cite an academic style guide and then say that someone was guilty or innocent of plagiarism. However, citing the style guide isn't O.R. Using it to say someone is innocent or guilty is _definitely_ O.R. However, since that example's been added to the policy it's often used to justify removing cited material that might be problematic, but problematic for reasons other than original research. My take on the "subliminal" controversy is that it's just one of many things to say about the movie, and it should be deep in a subsection of the article, not up front in the second paragraph. Squidfryerchef (talk) 16:57, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

My short answer is: it's more productive to debate the facts and what's probably true and what isn't and what's important with the other editors than to debate the rules. We've probably gone as far as we can go productively with the rules. Squidfryerchef (talk) 17:21, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Whoops

Just wanted to share with everyone the most interesting bit of original research I've ever seen: .--Father Goose (talk) 21:52, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

OR in Archaeoastronomy?

If I had realised this board existed sooner then I would have posted here earlier. As it is the debate has got a bit heated, so I'll try and summarise this neutrally.

There are two topics under debate in the Talk:Archaeoastronomy page.

• Is the citation of an article on Metrology being used to support a novel synthesis in the History of Archaeoastronomy section?
• Do the citations of an articles on Kennewick Man and the Solutrean hypothesis support the claims of Barry Fell or is this a novel synthesis? That's discussed in Talk:Archaeoastronomy#Pre-Clovis_Material_does_not_discuss_Archaeoastronomy

It's tied into an RFC which asks if two editors are being abusive and some 3rd party opinion may help.

Thanks to everyone who takes the time to look it over. Alun Salt (talk) 23:18, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

In opposition to Alun Salt, and as the one responsible for posting the RFC on possible abuse, my name is Scott Monahan and I edit under the user name below. Mr. Salt has a tendency to narrowly mischaracterize my citations in, what I believe to be, a systemic and self-serving manner. For example, The battle of the standards: great pyramid metrology and British identity, 1859-1990 is not isolated to Metrology per se. Historian Reisenauer identifies profound academic reformation in British astronomy that put a new face on antiquarianism of the era. Antiquarianism fostered modern archaeoastronomy. This is no leap of faith. It happened. Mr. Salt also enjoys isolating TIME's Who Were The First Americans? article to the controversially-charged Kennewick Man straw man, instead of acknowledging what authors Lemonick and Dorfman say about many other examples of Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact that invariably raise the hairs on the backs of mainstream archaeology with a dogma that has kept it in an intellectual straitjacket since Franklin Roosevelt was President. For the record, I have unequivocally renounced in my RFC that the TIME article and (according to Mr. Salt's latest addition herewith, the BBC's Stone Age Columbus - transcript regarding the Solutrean hypothesis), supports the claims of Barry Fell. Yet my protestations do nothing to dissuade my opponent from continuing to deviously twist matters to his own advantage. Can we tolerate such dishonesty and flagrant mischaracterization? I must conclude Mr. Salt either fails to read my Talk remarks, my citations and defenses, or he is too busy advancing his own POV, winning sympathy for camouflaged autocracy and a Good Article attaboy if he can get away with it. He has a pattern of deleting my edits with tortured rationalizations that must somehow make sense to him. He is not the victim here, I assure all. What he and partner Steve McCluskey desire, IMO, is absolute, irrevocable power to lock content. This is fundamentally violative of the spirit of Misplaced Pages, its mission and goals, and must not be allowed to go on unchecked. Breadh2o (talk) 01:05, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

As is all to often the case, in this dispute Original Research has slid over into the kind of Disruptive Editing in which the editor supports his original point of view by complaining about academic archaeologists, who dismiss the diffusionist ideas he shares with Barry Fell. Thus, despite the documented evidence that archaeologists, anthropolgists, and other social scientists play a major role in archaeoastronomy as it is currently practiced, Breadh2o tries to push the POV that his bête noir, the archaeologist, can have nothing to do with archaeoastronomy, which he sees as a struggle against the academic establishment.

Alun and I have struggled to explain to Breadh2o how he could move from original research by turning to relevant secondary sources, but thus far he has not responded in a positive fashion. In a sense it is a shame, since he is familiar with specific aspects of archaeoastronomy expressed in rock art, and I really would like to see him provide documented discussion of those sites and their reception. SteveMcCluskey (talk) 03:54, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Where have I said that archaeologists should have nothing to do with archaeoastronomy? Of course they have something to do with archaeoastromy. I simply don't think they are qualified to be final arbiters of what counts as fringe and what counts as mainstream due to demonstrable limitations in their ability to evaluate non-indigenous epigraphy and an inability to exhibit impartial judgment regarding a whole host of new discoveries based on an institutional dogmatic rejection of much evidence tied to Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact. I agree archaeology has a say, just not the final say, as you would endorse. The delineation between mainstream and fringe is not a simplistic and distinctive line in the sand. It is a gray area, instead. There are a whole spectrum of opinions, and to address this I chose to introduce articles in some popular periodicals, the BBC and now CBS (in my latest balancing act) that discuss it openly, something I gather you consider to be disruptive. I do insist that astronomy is the root of archaeoastronomy and archaeo-, as a modifier or adjective, is entitled to limited influence in what archaeoastronomy is. As you certainly must recall, Steve, you initiated the section of the article that introduced the attack on Barry Fell with your citation of W. Hunter Lesser's adolescent name-calling skreed. To offset your one-sided POV, I summoned a quote from archaeology professor emeritus David H. Kelley's conditional defense of Fell, "Proto-Tifinagh and Proto-Ogham in the Americas", from the Quarterly Review of Archaeology:

I have no personal doubts that some of the inscriptions which have been reported are genuine Celtic ogham. Despite my occasional harsh criticism of Fell's treatment of individual inscriptions, it should be recognized that without Fell's work there would be no ogham problem to perplex us. We need to ask not only what Fell has done wrong in his epigraphy, but also where we have gone wrong as archaeologists in not recognizing such an extensive European presence in the New World.

But you instantly deleted my stuff, characteristic of the very head-in-the-sand attitude I say that archaeologists exhibit.. We had a bit of an edit skirmish and you quickly agreed to pull your unilateral Fell-bashing in exchange for your rub-out of my defense of Fell. Barry Fell is no longer an issue in the archaeoastronomy article because of your choice to bury it and avoid any embarrassing consequences. You opened the door and you closed it, but I must wonder now, days later, when you and Alun continue to raise it as a red herring, if you want to restore the attack. Otherwise, there is no point in arguing Barry Fell any further. If you do, count on me to try to balance things again. That's how it goes on Misplaced Pages. It is not disruption. It is prevention of a unilateral POV. Why you insist on dragging this somewhat embarrassing faux pas of yours back into the mix now, when its relevancy has expired, betrays some desperation, don't you think? Breadh2o (talk) 05:10, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Whew. Nice bit of name-calling there by you Scott. Glad to see you aren't being dogmatic :-). I've got a copy of AAI by the way, and Clive Ruggles on Astronomy in Prehistoric Britain and Ireland and Christopher Walker's Astronomy Before the Telescope, so please don't think I am entering this discussion with no knowledge of the subject even though I won't claim to be an expert. I'm with Steve and Alun in this debate.--Doug Weller (talk) 08:38, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Dougweller is a member of the Archaeology Wikiproject. No surprise about where his sympathy lies. Breadh2o (talk) 15:05, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the collaborative nature of Misplaced Pages really doesn't allow us to discount the opinions of an entire academic field. — Laura Scudder ☎ 22:26, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Update

I came across this situation after a bout of spam cleanup landed this article on my watchlist. Today Breadh2o inserted a long, problematic section into the Archaeoastronomy article, and is now engaging in reverting it when removed diff. He has not yet broken 3RR, but he refuses to engage on the talk page of the article or his user talk page, or address the problems of unencyclopedic tone and questionable sources others have repeatedly pointed out to him. I view this user's editing as disruptive, uncooperative, and POV-pushing. I can see from what he has deleted from his talk page that other editors have tried to educate him, but he seems uninterested in learning to work cooperatively. I haven't had a chance to check Breadh2o's full contribs, but if what I've seen on this article is indicative of what he's doing on the 'pedia, this is cause for concern, indeed. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 03:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

OR regarding a TV show

I'm having some trouble with an IP address adding original research to The Moment of Truth (US game show). The IP address, rather than discussing the issue, keeps adding a chart to show there is a probability that a contestant will get cheated on the show. The chart itself is original research since the IP address editor doesn't actually know what procedures are used by the show's experts. I also have other general concerns with the chart and the edits such as POV issues, undue weight, "fringe" attacks on the TV show, etc. It's just not necessary, but the editor is being quite uncooperative in agenda-pushing. (Edit: The IP address is 199.125.109.105, and on The Moment of Truth talk page, the user unwittingly reveals that this is original research/synthesis by demonstrating his/her own methods rather than citing the sources of those methods.) Chicken Wing (talk) 04:38, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

PSTS and BLP

What is the policy on the use of quotations from a living person to support statements about them in their article? One user is repeatedly citing WP:PSTS as support for his view that Barack Obama has too many quotations from Obama himself. My view is that the quotations in that article are in keeping with the requirements of WP:PSTS, insofar as they:

• only make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and
• make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source

What's the usual interpretation of WP:PSTS in cases like this? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:03, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 19:14, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I think you are reading the policy correctly. Quoting Sen. Obama is perfectly OK according to PSTS. However, I do have to ask if it is necessary to quote him so much. Please see WP:SPS, which discourages relying too much on self published material. It might be best to see if there are some secondary sources that could be used to summarize some of these quotes. Blueboar (talk) 20:41, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Blueboar. The article is undergoing a FAR right now, so if there's too much self-published material being used as sources in the article I hope that'll come up there. Again, thanks for the reply. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:53, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Ongoing Synthesis problems

I have raised this issue before... but the problem continues. The article Catholicism and Freemasonry contains a HUGE amount of OR issues. At one point Jossi called it an "OR and POV nightmare"... and it has not improved. The most agregeous is the inclusion of a section on "The Relationship between Catholicism and Freemasonry by Country", which is a serious misnomer and essentially one big WP:SYNT violation. The section is really just a list of unconnected incidents in history where the Church and Freemasonry have been in conflict ... or, more correctly, where some critics of Freemasonry within the Church see a conflict (at times the "conflict" is very one sided.) By listing all these disperate historical events, the article attempts to "prove" that the fraternity is anti-catholic. It portrays these incidents and events as if they were connected in some way, when they are not. The article ignors a host of other motivations and historical trends that lye behind each event. More importantly, there is no source that links all of these events together... which is at the core of WP:SYNT. I have repeatedly tryed to get the primary editor of this article to understand what the problem is... to no avail. I need help. The article's topic is worth discussing... there is a solid basis for an article here... but the current version is in such bad shape that I have no idea where to begin. Blueboar (talk) 16:32, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The bad shape of the article is the reason why I'm trying to do something about it. The section Blueboar refers to was reading like a general hit list of problems. To sort that out I've changed the focus slightly (from a "by country" section to talking about Continental Freemasonry), removed some of the subsections and put in a referenced introduction that tries to set the whole controversy in context. I've also tried to add some information on the French, although that's met with less success. JASpencer (talk) 19:33, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The change in section title does not really change the SYNT problem. It simply redirects it's focus to a sub-section of Freemasonry instead of implying that it relates to the entire fraternity. The section in question can be summed up in a simple sentence... "For different reasons, at different times and places, some Freemasons in Catholic countries have supported political ideologies and stances that have been viewed by the Church as being Anti-Clerical." If this were all that was stated, there would be no problems... But by trying to list and discuss all of these disperate reasons, times and places, the article takes unconnected events and tries to link them in ways that form an improper Synthesis. Blueboar (talk) 21:26, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

But it's not the issue, is it? The point is that there is a point of view that the Church's view of Freemasonry is due to bad experiences with some radical (Continental) lodges - particularly France and Italy. It can be summed up as:

Thus, in condemning all Freemasonry for the actions of a few Grand Lodges, the Church precipitated a needless conflict. Latin Masonry, in its refusal to attempt to lead rather than force change, thereby made itself, and thus all Masonry, a party to the conflict. http://web.mit.edu/dryfoo/Masonry/Essays/miter-trowel.html

This is quite common among Anglo-American Freemasons. Christopher Hodapp seems to think this, for example. William J Whalen in the influential Letter to American bishops tries to debunk it. It's common. It should be addressed. JASpencer (talk) 21:50, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The material is useful, but not in its current state. I think it is more an issue of Misplaced Pages:NPOV#Neutrality_and_verifiability, than WP:SYN. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:46, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree that there are also NPOV issues that need to be dealt with... but there are SYN problems as well... I suppose, my biggest issue is that there is no source that ties all of these individual events together to reach the conclusions in the article. Individually, each event or political stance has been cited as an example of a group within Freemasonry taking an anti-clerical political stance... but no source puts them together, the way they are in the article. To me that is where the SYN comes in to play. It also skews the historical record. It leaves out important facts... such as the fact that the Grand Orient of France supported Napoleon III when he invaded Italy in support of the Papacy... at the same time that several Italian Grand Orients were supporting Unification, and thus opposing the Papacy. The article takes a very complex series of historical events, deals with them only half way, and merges them improperly. Blueboar (talk) 01:36, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Michael Rutter

I gave a third opinion on the page, and since then the page has exploded with potential OR and discussion about it. It'd be great if we could get another set of eyes to take a glance at the page. Basically, an editor made this edit and added all sorts of OR into the page. I added the OR template and fact tags all around, but they were removed. The editor has since added some references in, but the text itself still reeks of original research. Could someone take a glance at the page? The discussion is at Talk:Michael Rutter#OR and fact tags. Sorry if I'm being vague; hopefully I can clarify the situation a bit. Thanks. — HelloAnnyong 23:27, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

WELL DONE, MATE!

Please can I make a special plea that whoever takes a look knows something about the work of Professor Sir Michael Rutter.

The concepts appear simple but there are some extremely important issues at stake.

What I am desperate for is somebody who has not been brought up on a diet of Bowlby.

This note is no reflection on the above third party who is clever enough to see that he is involved in something that is not quite what it appears. Once again I take my hat off to him for being confident enough to make this request.

KingsleyMiller (talk) 00:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

PS May I ask you also to obtain a copy of the main article so that you can confirm the references are not OR.KingsleyMiller (talk) 00:54, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

It does appear to be OR intended to promote Rutter (or discredit Bowlby). This is a heavily discussed topic in development psychology. Therefore, it should not be difficult to find a source clearly indicating Rutter's role in relation to Bowlby. It would be, of course, acceptable to use sources purely discussing Rutter or Bowlby to clarify points raised, such as the meaning of a particular phrase or theory. However, such sources should illustrate the central point, not be used to make it. A good example of the OR concerns (particularly in relation to inappropriate synthesis) is the use to three disparate sources to make a single statement (fourth paragraph, current version ). The same sentence displays further OR concerns, by pointing to a "great deal of professional disquiet at the time" while only citing Rutter's paper (rather than a source making the claim there was a "great deal of professional disquiet at the time"). The material certainly needs to be gutted and rebuilt using reliable on-topic sources that clearly discuss the matter. Vassyana (talk) 22:07, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Vassyana

Thank you for this kind intervention.

However there are 2 mistakes in your comment.

Firstly regarding inappropriate synthesis. The section you refer to quotes from the original work. The references you believe are used to 'synthesis' are in fact additional secondary sources to substantiate the article. This only goes to reinforce the value of what Rutter is stating in the first place not as you suggest to make unwarranted statements. (Please ask Fanities for a copy of the article).

Secondly, you say

The same sentence displays further OR concerns, by pointing to a "great deal of professional disquiet at the time" while only citing Rutter's paper (rather than a source making the claim there was a "great deal of professional disquiet at the time").

But the work cited is not Rutter's. 'The Deprivation of Maternal Care; A Reassessment of its effects' was published by the WHO and includes articles from a number of respected experts in the field sharing their professional disquiet about Bowlby's work. I think you may have confused the two?

Bowlby described Rutter as his 'erstwhile critic' and it is for his work 'Maternal Deprivation Reassessed' that some would say is his major achievement. (I shall try to find some sources for this). Far from supporting the omission of the relevant paragraph your intervention has shown the reason it should remain.

Further I do not feel the piece is OR at all. I feel that it is because Rutter dares to criticise Bowlby that the objection has been lodged.

For example, I have produced a new page on Misplaced Pages called monotropy in which I outline the concerns about this particular concept. Both Fanitites and Jean Mercer seem to be oblivious to the fact that 'monotropy' is a key feature of 'maternal deprivation'. Instead they describe it as a 'tenet' of the attachment theory.

If you are familiar with this aspect of Child Psychology you will know this is a fundamental error.

I hope you will take the time and trouble to see the new page I have produced and compare it with the page on the attachment theory.

Once again thank you for your kind intervention.

KingsleyMiller (talk) 10:39, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

PS I hope you already know the idea of 'monotropy' has long since been abandoned.KingsleyMiller (talk) 10:58, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Re above comment;

The ‘Maudsley approach’

Michael Rutter’s book Maternal Deprivation Reassessed (Rutter, 1972) had an enormous impact on me. It is a model of a critical review. A 150-page tour de force of systematic and rigorous examination, it redefines a key research area. Further, numerous hypotheses are proposed, and are in turn tested for inconsistencies against the evidence available (around 450 publications). In this respect, the approach would no doubt have met with Popper’s approval.

The book also represents the ‘Maudsley approach’ at its finest. Aubrey Lewis in an interview once stated that ‘Maudsley psychiatry’ is ‘concerned with empirical clinical methods strengthened by the results of research, which then enable theory to be formulated and eventually applied to practice... is a balanced one, avoiding the extremes of enthusiasm and bold claims, but not settling down into a stagnant acceptance of things as they are’. Many might see Rutter’s conclusion, that both the ‘maternal’ and the ‘deprivation’ in the term ‘maternal deprivation’ are misleading, as typically ‘Maudsley’. However, the dissection of the various ways in which bonds between a child and a range of other people can be disrupted or distorted, in a range of contexts, and with a variety of outcomes to which subsequent events contribute, marks a major advance in thinking. On re-reading this book, I was struck by the fertility of the hypotheses; many adumbrate themes central to research in developmental psychiatry today, for example, the study of individual differences, or gene–environment correlations as well as interactions. Reductionism does not work well in the study of development, but this book shows that scientific rigour need not therefore suffer.

KingsleyMiller (talk) 11:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Vassyana,

In the biography I state,

The British Journal of Psychiatry credits him with a number of "breakthroughs" in these areas and Professor Sir Michael Rutter is also recognized as contributing centrally to the establishment of child psychiatry as a medical and biopsychosocial specialty with a solid scientific base.

To anybody who is familiar with Rutter's work they will know that this is also an oblique reference to Bowlby. Many of Bowlby's ideas appeared attractive but had no scientific base. In the biography I allude to this reference by using 'maternal deprivation' as the case study to illustrate the point. Hope this helps.KingsleyMiller (talk) 11:35, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Plyler v. Doe and U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez

There's been a dispute happening in the article Plyler v. Doe (a 1982 US Supreme Court case in which the court held that states could not refuse to provide free public education to foreign-born children living in the US as illegal immigrants).

Another (anonymous) editor wants to add a piece to this article mentioning that Plyler v. Doe was cited in another US Supreme Court case, U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez, in which the court said that "those cases in which aliens have been determined to enjoy certain constitutional rights establish only that aliens receive such protections when they have come within the territory of, and have developed substantial connections with, this country."

I tried to add an explanation, derived from a reading of the Verdugo-Urquidez case, of the context in which the above quote was made. Verdugo-Urquidez was a Mexican citizen who was arrested in Mexico and extradited to the US on "drug lord" charges. Verdugo-Urquidez argued that his having been extradited to the US afforded him the same constitutional rights against (allegedly illegal) search and seizure of his Mexican property as US citizens enjoy, and he cited Plyler v. Doe and its broad interpretation of US "jurisdiction" as being essentially equivalent to physical presence within the US. The Supreme Court, in its majority opinion, dismissed Verdugo-Urquidez's claim by saying that the mere fact that he was in the US as an extradited prisoner was not a sufficiently substantial connection to the US to entitle him to claim the same level of constitutional protection for actions done outside the US as are acknowledged for aliens in general in the US, or for US citizens living abroad.

The other editor insisted that this attempted explanation of the context of Verdugo-Urquidez was original research and thus unacceptable, and that the "substantial connections" quote should stand alone without further comment. Here is a diff illustrating our disagreement.

A similar mention of U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez also appears in the article on illegal immigration to the United States, where the current text of the article states that the Verdugo-Urquidez court "clarified" Plyler v. Doe via the "substantial connections" statement.

The reason I'm particularly uneasy at the idea of citing Verdugo-Urquidez in this way is that the "substantial connections" statement, all by itself and without any context, could easily mislead the reader into thinking that the Verdugo-Urquidez court had weakened the holding in Plyler and was exhibiting second thoughts about its position in Plyler or other cases involving illegal aliens. I feel it is essential to point out exactly under what circumstances the "substantial connections" had come up in the court's analysis of the Verdugo-Urquidez case. The other editor disagreed.

I could, I suppose, have specifically cited U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U.S. 259, where the reader can find the following text on page 271:

"JUSTICE STEVENS' concurrence in the judgment takes the view that even though the search took place in Mexico, it is nonetheless governed by the requirements of the Fourth Amendment because respondent was 'lawfully present in the United States . . . even though he was brought and held here against his will.' . . . But this sort of presence - lawful but involuntary - is not of the sort to indicate any substantial connection with our country. . . . When the search of his house in Mexico took place, he had been present in the United States for only a matter of days. We do not think the applicability of the Fourth Amendment to the search of premises in Mexico should turn on the fortuitous circumstance of whether the custodian of its nonresident alien owner had or had not transported him to the United States at the time the search was made."

and similar discussions in various other parts of the ruling, which I believe would make it clear to any reader that this was the context in which the court had made its "substantial connections" statement. I didn't include that quote because I assumed (and still assume) that such a citation of a specific portion of the court's opinion as a source for the summarization in the Misplaced Pages article was not necessary, since the case itself was already explicitly under discussion, and anyone who wanted to verify the claimed summary would already have the tools at hand to do so by looking up the case and studying it for themselves.

Do people feel that a comment of this sort about the background of U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez would be acceptable if accompanied by a quote from the court's opinion such as the one shown above?

Do people feel that this sort of comment about the background of Verdugo-Urquidez would be acceptable without an explicit reference to specific parts of the text of the opinion, on the grounds that the comment's accuracy will be clear to a reader who actually goes to the trouble of reading the case itself?

Do people feel that some sort of comment about the background of Verdugo-Urquidez would be OK, but that perhaps I'm going too far in my attempt to summarize the case, and that such a comment ought to take a different form?

Or do people feel that this sort of comment is not appropriate in Misplaced Pages at all, unless some external secondary source commenting on the Verdugo-Urquidez case can be found that explicitly says that this is what the "substantial connections" comment meant?

I imagine that if a quote from Verdugo-Urquidez about the context of "substantial connections" were considered unacceptable, some might argue that the "substantial connections" quote itself was also unacceptable — a conclusion, however, which I would not be prepared to agree with. Richwales (talk) 21:06, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Supreme Court cases can be very nuanced, no matter how plainly stated they may seem to be. Scholars with doctoral degrees in the subject and decades of experience fiercely debate even the basic substance and thrust of US Supreme Court decisions. For example, whether US v. Miller approves of extensive gun control or reiterates a right to bear arms (appropriate for the purposes of the unorganized militia), or something in-between, greatly depends on the person giving the analysis. The United States is a common law country, meaning that no matter how plain a law or court case may appear to be, it is influenced, restricted and/or reinforced by the apparent intent of the lawgivers/judges, previous laws and court decisions, traditional Anglo-American common law, and so forth. I advise extreme caution in quoting Supreme Court cases, being sure to stay exactly to the source and avoiding even the appearance of drawing a conclusion or leading the reader. I would suggest that the decisions themselves be avoided (as direct sources), except when used to provide an illustrative quote that supports the conclusions of independent sources. Vassyana (talk) 22:18, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I'm prepared to agree to go quite that far in limiting quoting of Supreme Court cases, since impartial independent sources of analysis or interpretation of such cases could be (as you yourself pointed out) very hard to find — though, to be sure, POV sources are likely to be a dime a dozen.

At the very least, though, I would certainly object to saying that the U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez opinion "clarified" Plyler v. Doe — and on the other hand, I believe it would be perfectly legitimate to say that Verdugo-Urquidez did not deal directly with illegal immigration or the rights of illegal aliens in the United States, and that the extent of its impact on the holdings in Plyler v. Doe remains unclear at this time.

I believe this statement is self-evident from even a cursory reading of the Verdugo-Urquidez opinion, but if people feel a source of some kind is still necessary, I could cite — as evidence that at least some researchers hold to this view — the (by its nature inherently biased) amicus curiae brief in support of the petitioners in the cases Rasul, Shafiq, et al. v. George W. Bush, et al., and Al Odah, Fawzi K., et al., v. United States, et al., which (on page 22) says that: "Standing alone, Verdugo-Urquidez does not clarify what circumstances other than citizenship, residence, and territorial presence should trigger the applicability of the Due Process Clause."

And I would have no problem if, juxtaposed to the above, someone were to cite another source claiming that Verdugo-Urquidez does in fact signal a change in the situation of illegal immigrants, in a "some say X, others say Y" framework. Richwales (talk) 02:58, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, Misplaced Pages is not about using impartial sources. Impartial sources are in no way a requirement of the content principles. All that's required is for the POVs presented in the article to roughly approximate the balance of POVs present in the general body of available sources. Using my US vs Miller example, the Misplaced Pages article should spend more time on the endorsement of gun control view because that is more predominant in English literature. Also using that same example, you can quote various portions of that decision that seem to clearly support one position or another. It is not that I don't think it should be quoted at all, but rather that it should be quoted alongside supporting citations. *hands out some salt grains* Vassyana (talk) 03:08, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the other editor is right here. There is an enormous despute involved, particularly today when the question of whether and to what extent non-resident aliens have rights vis a vis the military and other government agencies is a matter of significant dispute. Everything depends on context. Your particular choice of how to contextualize the decision -- the particular circumstances you think relevant to the holding and beyond which, by implication, it ought not to be extended, is clearly an interpretation, and if unsourced is just the sort of interpretation that WP:SYN prohibits. Better to simply use the decision's language. Better still to use an interpretation from a legal journal or other source, if available, where an expert proposes contextual elements that the expert (and not an editor) thinks are relevant and explain how the decision should be interpreted. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 00:52, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Additional note on WP:SYN: Pyler was based on the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection Clause, which applies only to states, not the Federal government. Verdugo-Urquidez was based on the 4th Amendment and 5the Amendment Due Process clause vis-a-vis the Federal government. One of the key differences between the two involves the treatment of non-citizens. The Court has interpreted the Equal Protection Clause since the 19th Century to mean that states can't discriminate based on citizenship status except for a compelling interest. But the same Court has interpreted the 5th Amendment Due Process Clause for a similarly long time to hold that the federal government can do just that, and it requires only a rational basis for laws that treat aliens differently. Because of these long-standing differences between the way these different parts of the constitution have been interpreted and the completely different rules they impose on the states and the federal government, there's simply no reason to assume that these cases have anything to do with each other. Leaping to such conclusions represents one of the problems with original research synthesis. An inference that seems obvious to an outsider may not be to an expert in the field. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 17:00, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

That would seem to suggest that the best course of action here might be not to mention U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez at all in the context of Plyler v. Doe. I would be OK with that. The other (anonymous) editor, on the other hand, might not agree, since he seemed insistent on mentioning that Verdugo-Urquidez had cited Plyler, including a quote of the "substantial connections" part of the Verdugo-Urquidez opinion as a presumptive "clarification" of Plyler. It would probably be good to give the other editor a chance to chime in and speak for himself — assuming he's still around (I haven't seen anything from him in over a week now). Richwales (talk) 18:00, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. Better to be cautious, especially with court rulings where one can extract all sorts of statements, testimony and opinions to "prove" a point. Suggest not mentioning the case at all until consensus can be reached on the talk page. Windy Wanderer (talk) 04:01, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

"Almanac-type" facts

I seem to remember that at some point there was a WP policy/guideline which said that, generally speaking, for "almanac-type" facts, no citation was needed; that is where an uncontroversial fact could be easily determined by looking at readily-available standard reference material, no citation was needed. Examples of these standard materials include atlases, almanacs, dictionaries, Shakespeare, the Bible, etc. Examples of "almanac-type" facts would include that Denmark is north of Germany, summer follows spring, Hamlet dies in Act V, David slew Goliath, etc.

Any suggestions where to look for such a guideline?

I occasionally see over-eager editors slapping fact and source tags on these non-controversial "almanac-type" facts, and I'd like to be able to cite to something in removing these unnecessary tags. (Of course, if it is a controversial claim, the fact that it might be found in an almanac is not sufficient.) The current language in the policy ("Any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by a reliable source") encourages unncessary tagging, because the act of tagging can be viewed as a "challenge," which would then require a citation, for an otherwise non-controversial fact. GiveItSomeThought (talk) 20:17, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:IAR? Sometimes an editor simply needs a gentle reminder that WP:V, WP:OR, and WP:RS exist as tools to help make Misplaced Pages better, and not as ironclad rules that must be followed at all times or else. And so if there's a fact that no one in their right mind would actually doubt, it doesn't need a fact tag slapped onto it. To exemplify what I'm thinking of, I once saw someone demand, in good faith, that a citation be made to the statement that a millisecond is one one-thousandth of a second. I've also seen someone demand in bad faith, I highly suspect, that 8298 is the integer that follows 8297 (or something like that, can't remember exactly). Someguy1221 (talk) 21:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

You and I agree - but it would be handy to have a reference to an actual WP guideline/policy that talks about almanac-type facts as generally not needing cites. WP:IAR doesn't have an "almanac-type facts" comment like the one that I remember seeing. Any other suggestions? GiveItSomeThought (talk) 22:32, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

You might want to look at: Misplaced Pages:The rules are principles. It is an essay, and not a policy or guideline, but it is a highly reguarded essay. Otherwise, I can't think of a specific guideline or policy that discusses "almanac-type facts"... but your take definitely reflects consensus. Basic almanac-type facts are not "likely to be challenged", so we usually don't bother to cite them. The problem is that in your case, the facts have been challenged. Technically, you should now cite them (to an almanac?). The ultimate question is whether the challenger has a reason to make the challenge... does he/she doubt the accuracy of the material? If the user has not stated a better reason than "WP:V says I can tag it"... then just invoke IAR. One rule against another. If the user has a reason, then hash it out on the talk page. Blueboar (talk) 15:40, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm ... OK, thanks! It seems to me that (a) some reference to "almanac-type facts" used to be in WP:V (or somewhere... maybe my memory is soft on this), and (b) if there isn't one, then wouldn't it be useful to have some quiet reference to this consensus view somewhere? Maybe I'll start a conversation on the point at WP:V or WP:NOR. Thx again! GiveItSomeThought (talk) 20:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Scottish mafia

Repeated insertion of unsourced primary research. The User is unwilling to accept that only secondary (or occasionally tertiary) sources are allowed, and seems determined to insert their own primary statistical analysis. --Mais oui! (talk) 14:56, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

You are correct in saying that what the user is adding is OR... but your reasons are off. Primary sources are allowed. However, they must be used with caution because it is easy to misuse them (as is being done here). In this case, the user is taking primary material and analyzing it... performing calculations and giving percentages to reach a conclusion that is not contained in the primary material. The fault is not with the primary material, but with the analysis. Blueboar (talk) 15:18, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

The User still refuses to accept that it is a breach of WP:OR. --Mais oui! (talk) 13:39, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Original Research or not?

I want to give an image as a source for the text which I am writing in an article. The text can be said as depiction of what is presented in the image. So, does it constitute to Original Research. --SMS 17:16, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

It depends on the image and the text. Adding a very basic caption to an image is acceptable... much more than that is not. Blueboar (talk) 17:36, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Like I want to write about the uniform of a regiment of Pakistan Army as shown in some images like and . --SMS 19:09, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

The Image:800px-Colonisation3.gif was removed on allegation it was original research. The editor did not explain his reverting on the discussion page and gives no explanation of what aspect he is claiming to be OR. The main item I included in the revised map was the United Nations colonial possession for which it created the UNTEA; the territory was then "administrated" by the Republic of Indonesia; I don't think there is any original research in graphically summarizing the colonial territories in the years involved.Daeron (talk) 23:51, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Airstrip One

Herein we have an editor who continually reverts edits to restore uncited original research to the article and remove a couple of fact tags. The editor believes this is done in the name of building an encyclopedia and that any opposition to such material is tyrannical bureaucracy. What is to be done about editors who so strongly insist on leaving obvious OR in articles that they're willing to go to war over it? How is this productive? Cumulus Clouds (talk) 02:27, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Size of Soviet partisans

Article on Armia Krajowa has been protected due to edit warring over the statement "Armia Krajowa was the second largest resistance in the WWII Europe after the Soviet partisans" (or similar wordings). The protection ends soon and no consensus has been reached. So far we have several sources stating clearly that AK was the largest (see Armia_Krajowa#Notes; other sources quoted on talk), some numbers which indicate - without saying so clearly - that Soviet partisans were approaching and/or similar in size to AK (varies with time, I've tried to gather all the numbers presented on this graph) and not a single source that would state clearly that either Soviet partisans were the largest in WWII Europe or that AK was the second largest. Yet an editor keeps insisting this is the case. Please see: Talk:Armia_Krajowa#World's_largest?! and Talk:Armia_Krajowa#Soviet_partisans_largest.3F for most of the dispute. In the end we have a version like after this edit, with a claim that "AK was the largest in Europe outside of the territory controlled by the Soviet partisans", and a note which cites several sources about AK being the largest without mentioning anything about the Soviet partisans (since the Soviet partisans claim is being added without any references...). I believe that this edit warring is not only disruptive, but a clear violation of WP:OR and WP:V. Comments appreciated.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:33, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Mahamada

Hello, i've noticed that somebody redirected article Mahamad to some holy book (Bhavishya Purana). it would be better if its redirected to Tripurasura because Mahamad is not only mentioned in Bhavishya Purana and it further says reincarnation of Tripurasura an Asura. --Padma10 (talk) 15:33, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Full details here. The correct redirect is in place (the bit about Tripurasura is just a detail in the "story"). rudra (talk) 13:21, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

And an update. rudra (talk) 02:27, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

OR in Straw polls for the Republican Party 2008 presidential nomination

This article is largely a mess of WP:OR with editors adding straw polls that of questionable relevance (such as high school caucuses) and using them to calculate all kinds of leader boards later in the article. I've tried to clean out the polls that were clearly sourced poorly and remove the unsourced leader boards in hopes of cleaning some of the cruft but they have been added back in, complete with more questionable sources and recalculated leader boards and map. Am I completely off base on thinking that that without a single reliable source being used to validate the selection of straw polls for inclusion, and determining leader statistics, that the entire article is effectively OR? Burzmali (talk) 12:57, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

The map with the summary of the most recent straw poll results looks like OR, because it's not sourced. The individual straw polls might be WP:V, if they have citations. The best way to approach the article would be to find reliable sources discussing the phenomenon of straw polls in the context of the current elections. IMHO, of course. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 03:49, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

First-Hand Report

In the case of a person whose biography or references appear in Misplaced Pages who is (or was when alive) personally known to a contributor who encounters material which he knows to be incomplete, misleading or just wrong, is it admissible to enter a counterbalancing sentence clearly flagged as original, such as the following; (ORIG) Bloggs is often cited as a leading anti-smoking lobbyist (ADD) although friends (the present contributor) report he enjoyed the occasional cigar.

I mean of course when the fact is verifiable and relevant and occasions no unfairness or unpleasantness but has not necessarily been published.

Such a comment has just been removed from such a page summarily by the main editor of that page, who represented ?himself as having "the final say". Is the NOR policy so rigid as to disallow such personal knowledge of matters which, because too trivial for the written word, may remain otherwise unrecorded in the service of a public image? And is this matter so grave as to allow no flagging, no discussion, no attempt to verify on the part of the "controlling" editor? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redheylin (talk • contribs)

From what you describe, the other editor is correct in removing the information. If it is not available in a published source, it is not verifiable for the purposes of Misplaced Pages. If a detail is too minor to be published in normal sources (which devote much more space to their subjects than Misplaced Pages articles), they certainly don't have a place here. Vassyana (talk) 01:33, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Personal synthesis of sources

On this article, another editor is arguing that because one side is arguing one thing, they must also argue a second position. The problem is that not only do none of the sources say that, but some of them actually contradict the logic and outright disagree with the second position despite arguing the first position. I read over this protocol before but I'm not sure if this synthesis is considered "original research"? What should I do? --Robertert (talk) 08:33, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the edit in question, it seems to be a case of opinion editing. You may wish to ask for assistance at the NPOV noticeboard. You could also ask for a third opinion. Vassyana (talk) 09:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Closing credits on Children of Men

An RfC has recently been opened in relation to this topic. Another request regarding the sources in particular has been opened on the reliable sources noticeboard here. This particular message concerns OR.

For more than a year, an editor has been, for the lack of a better word, obsessed with the importance of certain trivial elements within the closing credits of the film, Children of Men. At least five talk page archives 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 as well as the current talk page have been devoted to the smallest minutiae of the closing credits of this film, to the detriment of improving the article and to the exasperation of several RfC's, third opinions, and intervention from the film project.

The crux of the issue concerns two things: 1) the sound effects in the closing credits, specifically, the sound of "laughing children" playing in a schoolyard, and 2) the use of a closing title that appears at the end of the credits, that says "Shantih Shantih Shantih". Now, the consensus has been for the last year that these details are trivial, and unless reliable sources can be found for their inclusion, they should probably be left out of the article. Dozens of discussions have not deterred this editor, and still, he continues to insert this information into the article. First, it was placed in the plot section. Then, when it was demonstrated that the credits have nothing to do with the plot, it was deleted, only to emerge a year later when the editor found a personal website that copied the information from a user-driven part of the IMdB. The editor then claimed that this was proof that the information was notable, and placed it in the "themes" section of the article.

The irony is that this information was first uploaded to Misplaced Pages right around the time it was added to IMdB. I have often speculated that the editor in question added it to IMdb, and then used that as justification to add it to Misplaced Pages, but that is not the issue at hand. The issue is original research. To date, there are no reliable, published sources that discuss the laughter of children in the film's credits, nor its importance in the plot, as a theme, or anything else. Although most people following this issue many not be aware of this, the editor had originally attempted to insert this material into the article back in early 2007 as a means to advance a personal pet theory about the conclusion of the film. The editor has stated his theories in the talk archives, explaining that the sound effects of children laughing tie-in to the "Shantih" that appears in the closing titles. While several reliable sources have briefly discussed the Shantih in passing, none have referred to the sound effects.

Now, with that said, I have tried to argue the opposite, that is, to support the editor by examining evidence that would lend credence to this apparent synthesis/OR and render it suitable for inclusion. At present, there is only a primary source, that is the movie itself, to support including this material. While the information doesn't appear in the screenplay, the closed captioning on the DVD does say "children laughing" or "laughing children" (I can't remember which) when the credits roll.

After a year of this nonsense, I recently compromised by adding a citation to the primary source with the exact time stamp listed in the {{cite video}} template supporting the inclusion of the "laughing children", which aside from the DVD citation, cannot be supported. The editor in question promptly removed the source, which appears to me in direct violation of WP:V, as this material has been challenged for over a year and discused in the talk archives and the current talk page. Furthermore, the material currrently appears directly next to the sourced "shantih" material, supporting the editor's original pet theories about the connection between the sound effects and the closing titles.

In one of many explanations of his pet theories, the editor has stated that he believes "the Shantih and the sounds of children laughing and playing is part of the story" (17:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)) and that the director "tells us that everything works out by using the sounds of children laughing and playing" (16:59, 13 February 2007 (UTC)) and that "the Shantih and the children laughing are all by themselves. There is no confusion as their strength or purpose as a plot device. There is no chance to blink and miss the imagery. It is a part of the movie, a continuation of such. In short, the sounds of children laughing and playing as well as the Shantih have thematic components. They are also technically a synoptic part of the movie, not as set dressing, not as lighting, not as background, but by themselves." (17:26, 9 February 2007 (UTC))

I am seeking comments on the RfC as well as suggestions on how to end this year-long conflict over OR. Viriditas (talk) 10:05, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

We are dealing with two issues here... whether the material is OR, and whether it is trivial. On the first issue... no, it is not OR to bluntly state that a sound effect can be heard in the closing credits. We can indeed cite the film itself as the primary source for that. If the article were to go on and analyze or interpret the sound, discussing why the sound effect was placed there, or what significance that sound effect has... then we would be in OR territory and would need a secondary source to verify the statement. On the second issue... I agree with those who say it is essentially trivial information. How does it improve the article to mention this?... and conversely, how does it hurt the article to leave it out? This isn't a policy/guideline issue however. A consensus needs to be reached on the article talk page. Blueboar (talk) 19:11, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Reply from Arcayne

While I responded more specifically to this point in the RS noticeboard, I am responding here as well, as a rounder picture of the issue might be somewhat more helpful. I am not going to address the uncivil characterizations by Viriditas, since its taken me a year to realize that it is a dead-end road to do so. Asking him to be civil and ease up on the personal attacks over the past 16 months hasn't been effective in curbing the behavior; I have little reason to believe that making the same request now would be any more effective.

I readily admit that I am of the opinion that the laughter of children in the closing credits - a dénouement of the film about human fertility and possible extinction of humanity - has some thematic weight. When I first started editing about this matter, I was still new to the policies and guidelines of Misplaced Pages, and didn't understand that even thought I could observe the phenomena, there was no citation about it, and could therefore not include it. After a RfC (Comment) decided the matter in favor of non-inclusion, the matter was put to rest for a time, and I went along with the findings of that (somewhat) independent finding. While I am not particularly bothered by the inclusion of my older posts by Viriditas, I think that dragging them here is rather pointless, akin to crying over spilt milk. After all, a person's edits and editing behavior is likely to mature over a year or so from the time they start. The arguments submitted for concluson have thusly matured as well, and have been since supported by documentation and reference. Most others would note that the posts (dredged from year-old archives) are all quite old. This should signify that there isn't really any sort of "obsession" with the article - or the other editor. It seems rather odd that Viriditas apparently maintains a list of my years-old posts. That would appear to better fit the definition of 'obsession.'

Citable references as to the usage of the closing credits end text "shanthih shantih shantih" noted in particular as to the likely meaning of their placement at the very end of the film. It should be noted that the same phrase also is used inthe film by one of the main characters while discussing the pregnancy of another character. As an independent source found that bit of information important to the theme and symbolism of the film, I would submit that, having done so, it is no longer Original Research or trivia to include it in the article (though personally, I think that it belongs in the Themes section, and not in a unique 'Closing Credits' section).

When another citation was found that noted specifically the sound of children's laughter, the citation - not a 'pet theory' or whatever - I reverted its undiscussed removal. The source of the citation itself was attacked as unreliable, and consensus found that while it wasn't a bad source, it wasn't established enough to warrant inclusion. The nonsense about copying from Imdb was speculative at best, and I won't waste this noticeboard's time with contesting the consensus found elsewhere. I didn't contest the results after they were given.

I did not create the Closing Credits section, and likely would not have done so; that was a creation of the complaining editor, Viriditas. I did not ad the bit about the children's laughter, as I could not cite it. After a recent noticeboard discussion concerning the view on the laughter as observable phenomena, I likely would have considered discussing its addition long before adding it to the article, so as to find a consensus (and subsequently avoid the vitriolic behavior and recrimination by Viriditas that attends virtually every post I make to the article). I only removed the addition of musical tracks from the section - as including only those particular songs without citation as to their noted importance would be original research.

""As well, I removed the cite video template noting the time-stamp of the incidence of the children's laughter and shouting (playing at a playground, as has been offered by Viriditas, is also speculative; the laughter and shouting of children is observed, not the playing). As a special section was added by Viriditas to include (or perhaps to segregate) the information about both the (cited info about the) shantih occurrence as well as the laughter phenomena, it seems like overkill to time-stamp the observable phenomena; we know it is in the closing credits, as the section says so. Would the casual reader really need to know precisely when the laughter began during the credit roll? Like I said, more info than is necessary. While I think the cite video (noted as an alternative) to be mostly redundant as to its usage in the contested edit, I think it bears pointing out that time-stamping is "useful for citing specific scenes, quotations or data.". As the creation of the section, Closing Credits pretty much specifies where the observable phenomena occurs, and since the phenomena occurs throughout the credit roll, the cite video time-stamping is redundant and unnecessary. In short, it's overkill. In each instance of reversion, I requested that we discuss the issue, as simply reverting wasn't resolving the issue still being discussed in article talk. Only after quickly arriving at 3RR did the other editor begin discussing the matter in earnest. His seeking out different forums here, the RS noticeboard and Wikiproject Films are a direct outgrowth of reaching that revert limit.

So, let's sidestep all the personal drama, and focus on the actual points, which I have explained my edits to the article, and (hopefully) clarified a better picture of the issue's background noise. - Arcayne () 22:01, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Reply from Viriditas

I have responded to your duplication of this discussion on the RS noticeboard in this reply. I want to point out that the diffs on the talk page and in the page history show that I have been engaged in discussing this for three weeks, and at no time did Arcayne reply or respond to the discussion on talk. Furthermore, I was actively engaged in discussion during every edit I made to the article while Arcayne blindly blanket reverted my edits and claimed that I needed to discuss his reverts. This is a serious OR issue, and there are significant number of diffs, both in the talk page archives and in the page history itself that show that Arcane's deletion of material is being done to support his pet theory that there is a connection between the sound effects and the end titles - a theory that cannot be found in any reliable source. Both Blueboar on this noticeboard and Shoemaker's Holiday on the RS noticeboard are in agreement that we can cite the film as a primary source for the sound effects. I have seen no editor other than Arcayne dispute this fact, so I will consider the matter regarding the RS closed and cite the material in question using primary sources, otherwise it should be removed from the article as both unsourced and trivial. Now, regarding the OR connections between the sound effects and the closing credits ("Shantih"), this pet theory of Arcayne's is only made visible when one deletes the songs listed in the credits. Arcayne has been removing this material specifically to highlight his pet theory, not as he claims, because it is "non-notable bloat". In fact, the three songs have at least two reliable sources in the article, and others are available. The Children of Men (soundtracks) article has the same/similar sources. So, the OR issue has not been resolved. Arcayne is attempting to synthesize a relationship between the sound effects and the closing credits by deleting any material that comes between the two items, namely the three notable songs. Multiple diffs can be provided showing that Arcayne has expressly and directly stated this idea in talk archives 2-6. Arcayne is banking on the fact that nobody but me has actually read and followed the comments on the talk page for the last year, or remembers how Arcayne has tried to repeatedly add OR to Children of Men since January 2007. To summarize, Arcayne first tried to convince us that the main character of the film had lived not died (contrary to all reviews and comments by the director and cast). Then, when he found that he couldn't edit war that false information into the article, he tried adding a trivia section describing the types of guns used in the film based on his own expertise. Again, that was reverted. Then coincidentally enough, someone added a user-generated entry to IMdB, and Arcayne began adding the exact same information to the article shortly thereafter, this time claiming that the sound of laughing children in the credits was directly related to the plot. After he tried edit warring this into the article and failed, anonymous IPs seemed to follow him around reverting to his version. Interesting coincidence. Even a few brand, spanking new registered accounts showed up out of the blue to help out. Then, Arcayne tried to argue that the organization in the film (The Human Project) was evil because he personally saw a sailor in the film with an "unsmiling face", and Arcayne tried edit warring his personal beliefs about the emotional state of a fictional character into the plot section. When this OR was reverted, Arcayne began arguing that the esteemed British film critic, Philip French was not notable and his film criticism should be deleted because Arcayne's personal beliefs were more reliable. To date, French's criticism has still not been added back into the article. This disruptive, nonsensical behavior went on for a year. More recently, Arcayne recently found a personal website that - surprise, surprise - copied the original information from IMdB, an unreliable source - and he added it back into the themes section. When consensus on the talk page and film project showed that this source was unreliable and should be removed, Arcayne refused to delete it, leaving it in the article for three weeks until I arrived to remove it, and here I am. Viriditas (talk) 03:35, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Reply from Baseball Bugs

Is this movie on DVD? Do the producers of the film have anything to say about this matter? Baseball Bugs 04:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the film was released on DVD in 2007. The producers, the director, the cast, and other members of the team have not commented on the topic of the sound effects (laughing children) and the end titles (shantih) , however, interestingly enough, they have commented on John Lennon and John Tavener, two of the songs removed from the closing credits section by Arcayne. Michael Caine's character is expressly based on John Lennon, and the director has spoken about his collaboration with Tavener and his composition for the film, "Fragments of a Prayer". So mentioning that these songs appear in the credits is notable, and there are multiple, published sources that review and discuss the music. There are no sources that discuss the sound effects of laughing children, and only one, web-based source that mentions the "shantih" end titles. Viriditas (talk) 05:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Did they comment on where the story might pick up after the film's storyline ends? Baseball Bugs 05:05, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Never, and there is precedent for artists, writers, and directors to leave this type of speculation to the audience. Cuarón even makes this clear in a number of interviews, repeatedly making comments like: "We wanted the end to be a glimpse of a possibility of hope, for the audience to invest their own sense of hope into that ending. So if you're a hopeful person you'll see a lot of hope, and if you're a bleak person you'll see a complete hopelessness at the end." I should also mention that in addition to reading a hundred or so articles on the subject, I have listened to and transcibed the two interviews from the Creative Screenwriting podcasts with Alfonso Cuarón and Timothy J. Sexton, and while the topic of music repeatedly comes up (the director and the writer often used music as a creative catalyst during their writing sessions) the sound effects and end titles in the closing credits are never mentioned. Viriditas (talk) 05:10, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Never having seen the film, I could nonetheless get from their comments that the sounds of children tie in with their "possibility of hope", i.e. that the human species would not go extinct. Taking the "hopeless" side, the sounds would be simply irony, i.e. something that would never be heard again. Also, I don't speak Hindi, but I take it that word "shantih" means something like "inner peace". Baseball Bugs 05:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "get from their comments" as the director is talking about the end of the film, not the credits, and has never discussed the sound effects of children laughing in the credits. If one had to speculate about the sound effects, one would have to look no farther than the screenplay or scene 12 of the film itself, titled "Waiting for Syd" on the DVD. In this scene, the dead silence of an empty school playground is remarked upon by Miriam: "As the sounds of the playgrounds faded, the despair set in. Very odd, what happens in a world without children's voices." (Time stamp: 1:02:43-57) The sound of children playing in the credits draws upon this very scene, reminding us what we've been missing for the last 109 minutes. There has never been a direct, sourced tie-in with the sound of children laughing in the credits and the "possibility of hope" pertaining to the fate of the human species. That theory was initially proposed by Arcayne a year ago, and he has been edit warring it into the article ever since. It is pure original research. Like you, I Want to Believe there is a connection, but there is a big difference between our personal beliefs and what is. WP:OR is pretty clear on this: we don't publish original thought, the material must be attributable to a reliable, published source, and the articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not clearly advanced by the sources. Arcayne is trying to promote the very idea you have described, that "the sounds of children tie in with their "possibility of hope", i.e. that the human species would not go extinct." Unfortunately, there is no evidence supporting that idea. On the other hand, Erik was kind enough to post two sources, one that linked the Shantih to the theme of hope (Lowman, Rob. "Cuaron vs. the world", Los Angeles Daily News, 2007-03-27.) and the other that defines it as "the peace which passeth all understanding". ( LaCara, Len. "Cruelest of months leaves more families grieving", Coshocton Tribune, 2007-04-22) This still doesn't address why the music was removed from closing credits section, nor why the sound effects of children laughing in the credits rise above trivia. Viriditas (talk) 07:07, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, the director has given us one datapoint, and the comment by Miriam is another datapoint. So the children's voices over the closing credits counterpose the ending. It's easy enough to report both of those statements and also report the sounds heard over the closing track, without spelling it out... in short, presenting it exactly as the filmmakers did: thus the readers, as with the film audience, are left to draw their own conclusions. Baseball Bugs 08:28, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm afraid you haven't been following this discussion. The director has never commented about the sound effects of children laughing in the credits nor the ending credits ("Shantih"), nor does the in-world comments from Miriam have anything to do with this, as it would WP:OR to even mention it without sources. The directors comments about the "possibility of hope" concern two things unrelated to this topic: the theme of hope and its relation to contemporary events (which is a separate topic and is already covered in the article); and the presentation of these themes in the documentary "The Possibility of Hope" included on the DVD. This has nothing to do with this discussion. This discussion is about original research. Viriditas (talk) 08:54, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

The opening and closing credits are part of a film. You have that quotation from a critic, or whatever, that points out the connection between the "Shantih-Shantih-Shantih" and T.S. Eliot's despair-filled classic poem. And you have the statements by the director and the character in the film. So that takes care of the OR issue. Baseball Bugs 09:11, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Please educate yourself about the difference between diegetic and non-diegetic film elements. The credits in question are not part of the fictional world, nor is there a single reliable source that states otherwise. For the second time the statements by the director and the character in the film have nothing to do with any aspect of this discussion. The directors comments specifically address the theme of hope and how it relates to the real world. As for the character, we cannot use film quotes to promote an idea without RS; you may want to review WP:OR if you don't understand what I am saying. Please limit your comments to direct statements concerning the topic of original research. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 09:22, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

The closing credits are part of any film. The music and sound heard on any closing credits often have to do with the film's contents and themes. Baseball Bugs 09:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

The main difference between Arcayne's version and yours seems to be whether to also include the music. Is that what this dispute is about, after a year? Baseball Bugs 08:42, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

No, that is not what this dispute is about at all, and I've outlined the dispute several times in this discussion, on the RS noticeboard, and in the current RfC on the talk page. I would like to thank you for wikistalking me here from Talk:Bibliography of Philip K. Dick. I know you are upset about our last discussion, but the if you are going to insert yourself into a discussion, the least you could do is first familiarize yourself with the topic. Viriditas (talk) 08:54, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not upset about anything, it was you that was upset, and your accusation of wikistalking does not help your credibility. I have the right to read, comment upon, and question anything I want to. And the only difference I'm seeing, currently, between the two versions, is whether to talk about the music or not. Since Arcayne wants to exclude it, presumably he needs to explain why. Or maybe he already has, somewhere in this megillah. Baseball Bugs 09:11, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Have you ever edited on this noticeboard before your reply to me? You seem to be following my contributions in order to make trouble. That's wikistalking. You also seem to be ignoring my comments and making off-topic speculations that have nothing to do with this topic to distract the discussion away from the topic. You've had your say, now please, go away. Viriditas (talk) 09:22, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I have the right to follow and comment what anyone else is working on, which I often do (as do many others) because it broadens our base of knowledge and interest; and you have no authority to tell me not to. It is you that has gotten yourself into 3RR territory on this topic. And I'm raising these questions because I'm curious to know. This is an educational process. I had never heard of that film before, and now I'm curious about it. It seems like a different twist on the "end-of-the-world" scenarios that are explored in literature and media from time to time. Baseball Bugs 09:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I see you put a couple of fact tags in the article. Does the word "shantih" appear on the screen in English? If so, no fact tag is needed, as it can be observed unambiguously. The children's voices, though, might indeed need a fact tag, because how do we know for sure that it's children's voices, and not something that happens to sound like children's voices? Baseball Bugs 09:17, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

This is not the place for your comments about the film. Please use Talk:Children of Men. Please also read and understand WP:V: Material challenged or likely to be challenged, and all quotations, must be attributed to a reliable, published source. Viriditas (talk) 09:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

It seems like you've got commentaries on this matter all over the place. Maybe if it were all in one place, it would be easier to follow. Baseball Bugs 09:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Weird question

Here's a question for you all that seems to have arisen in some discussions with other editors. Suppose I'm reading a book and the description of a fictional character says he's 6ft tall (or maybe it says he's "about 6ft tall"). Is it original research if (for some reason) I put in the article that this fictional character is (about) 1.82m tall? (Which is approximately correct for the conversion, it's really 1.8288m.) Or how about if this is not about a fictional character, but about a real person (and I have some reliable source that says he's 6ft tall, or whatever)? Yeah, I know it's an odd question, but situations like this have really started to come up and it's claimed to be synthesis to do this. (Obviously it would be synthesis if you translated something like "he's 15 'hands' tall" into "he's 6ft tall" if there's no real-world equivalent of 'hand' and some unit of length given in the book.) --Craw-daddy | T | 23:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Unit conversion and other, simple mathematical operations are not original research. Someguy1221 (talk) 23:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, that was certainly my conclusion too, but your mileage may vary.  ;) --Craw-daddy | T | 00:30, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

To me, this sort of things seems no different than discretion over word choice or sentence structure. If a source claims that John gave X to Bob, can I say that Bob received X from John? Calling unit conversions original research is rediculous in almost all cases, with possibly a rare exception where the original unit is unusually ambiguous. Someguy1221 (talk) 06:52, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

It's not original research, but it's a dilemma, because "about 6 feet" is not the same thing as "about 1.82 meters". The former is a round number, while the latter sounds like a fairly exacting measurement. Given that anyone who reads wikipedia is theoretically educated and would know what a "foot" is, even if they don't use that in measuring, I don't see what the need would be for making such an exacting conversion. Also, consider this, that "about 6 feet" is not just about pure measurement, it's a cultural subtlety about a man's stature. That subtlety is lost in the cold and clinical metric system. (Which is just one of many reasons we Americans don't care for the metric system, but that's another story.) Baseball Bugs 08:51, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Wiktor Poliszczuk

Editors are inserting content stating that the subject has no history degree and isn't affiliated with any university, and are using as a source the fact that his biography does not mention a history degree or a university affiliation. Assistance would be appreciated. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 00:17, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. On the contrary, to explicitly point out the absence of evidence for something constitutes an implicit claim that there is a notable controversy about the subject's academic history, which is not mentioned nor sourced anywhere else in the article. I have reverted on BLP grounds and will watchlist. –Henning Makholm 00:39, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

1. U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898).
2. U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898).

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