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	Karl Marx is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination was archived. For older candidates, please check the archive.
Article milestones Date Process Result January 31, 2005 Peer review Reviewed April 15, 2006 Featured article candidate Not promoted September 3, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed
Current status: Former featured article candidate

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Archives

Hegelian Influences Paragraphs of Criticism

Criticisms - labour theory of value

In the Criticisms section it is written that "The Austrian School of economics has criticized Marx's use of the labour theory of value." Actually all mainstream modern economists think that labour theory of value is not correct. Can somebody improve this statement? --Doopdoop (talk) 21:36, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Could be changed to 'There has been much criticism of Marx's use of the labour value theory, notably so from the Austrian school of economics', although It might be weasel wording If it isnt properly sourced.R.G.P.A (talk) 00:51, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

What about something like "Marx uses labour theory of value to derive his theory of exploitation under capitalism, however most contemporary economists think that labour theroy of value is incorrect." --Doopdoop (talk) 01:08, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Well I guess you would have to find a source stating the most part, which might be difficult, but I dont know, at least we know that the Austrian school criticises the labour value theory.86.143.98.33 (talk) 13:11, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

BTW im R.G.P.A86.143.98.33 (talk) 13:12, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

"Anti-Semitism ?"

Excuse me, but, how can someone who was or is Jewish be 'Anti-Jewish' (i.e. "Anti-Semitic")?????????!!!!!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carlon (talk • contribs) 19:34, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I cut down on the number of question marks in the subject heading. Hope thats ok. I know that this is a periodic debate in this article. Marx didn't really identify as a Jew, so I don't think that's an issue. I do think that this article gives to much weight to those who argue that he was an anti-semite. Having actually read "On the Jewish Question," I think its pretty clear that Marx's argument was that Jews need to have emancipation from capitalism (i.e. end capitalist alienation), not just political emancipation. Many quotes in the text can be said to be anti-semitic, but Marx ultimately is in favor of both political and economic emancipation of Jews, so it should be made clear that the fundamental arguments of OJQ are not anti-semitic and are, at least for Marx, actually pro-Jew. I'll make edits soon unless someone beats me to it.--Bkwillwm (talk) 19:58, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Please try to keep your personal interpretations out of the article. -- Vision Thing -- 20:07, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not just my interpretation. I added a source to appease you. We can work out a decent section if we actuallly work at it. Reverting someone elses attempt to move to NPOV is not productive towards this. Right now the section is in very bad shape. It makes many stretches to portray Marx as an antisemite. Marx barely discussed Judaism in his many volumes of work, so pretending that antisemitism is central to his work is extremely misleading. I think the best section would be one that says Marx used antisemitic terms and there is further debate, etc. Right now there is a great deal of weight given to scholars who say Marx was antisemitic; however, none of these are even scholars of Marx. Most of the works cited deal with antisemtism, not Marx. They are not the best sources for understanding Marx. If you have a source from an actual Marx scholar, that would be great. P lease just go ahead and read "On the Jewish Question." It's short and it's clear Marx isn't attacking Jews, as you imply. Also, claims that Marx thought Jews thought Jews were the source of capitalism are absurd. Can you actually supply quotes from the writers you claim say this? I can't believe any serious scholar would make such a claim. Marx wrote thousands of pages on the origins of capitalism and makes almost no mention of Jews being connected to it. Not in OJQ or elsewhere. Additionally, claims that Marx inspired antisemites don't really belong here. It has no bearing on whether he was an antisemite or not. If anywhere, this should be in the legacy section. Finally, I added a perfectly legitimate citation where Marx argued for Jewish political emancipation and you just reverted it out. This is extremely poor editing. At least discuss why you removed it. I have tried to explain why I removed most of your sentences.--Bkwillwm (talk) 06:12, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

The section on anti-semitism is far too long, and thus POV by virtue of undue weight. The section relates almost entirely to On The Jewish Question, which is generally considered one of Marx's minor works, so it is out of place that it has such an extended discussion in this article (and OTJQ does have it's own article); furthermore, I don't think anti-semitism is among the most notable criticisms levelled at Marx (the economic, historical, and philosophical criticisms in the Criticism section are all more notable). It seems to me it would be appropriate to replace the current "Alleged Anti-Semitism" section with a couple of sentences in the Criticism section (and the material from "Alleged anti-Semitism" could be moved to On the Jewish Question as appropriate). VoluntarySlave (talk) 11:36, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what you or I think. It is only important what secondary sources say. Per WP:OR: All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Misplaced Pages editors. On other point, scholars of Marx are mostly those who are sympathetic to his views so most of them are probably not totally objective on this. Also, I can't believe that you think that experts on anti-Semitism are not best sources to establish whether Marx was anti-Semite. It's like saying that someone's biographer is better than a doctor in diagnosing whether that person is sick or not. -- Vision Thing -- 18:30, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages policy also says article space on a subject should be portioned roughly according to its prominence in academic literature. Right now, antisemitism makes up a sizable portion of the article, but does not generally seem to be a significant topic in scholarship on Marx. For comparison's sake, neither Encarta nor the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy even mention antisemitism. I haven't found much on Marx's antisemitism in several major books on him. I did find a few articles on the subject and I'll add material from them. However, I think this section has been blown out of proportion. I'm going to make a good faith edit based on the research.

Also, you didn't address why it's relevant that anti-Semites have supposedly been influenced by Marx. This has nothing to do with whether he was anti-Semitic.

--Bkwillwm (talk) 04:00, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Section could be significantly shortened by removing two largest quotes. Part about him influencing anti-Semites could go into "Marx's influence" section. -- Vision Thing -- 17:39, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The (end) section quoting Hal Draper is unneccessarily long and not directly related to the issue. Remove that and the atni-semitism section will be shorter and more directly to the point. It's got too long because its controversial. How do you decide what is a "notable criticism?".

Telaviv1 (talk) 11:45, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the section is too long. Draper's quote could go. I think most of this section has a place in Misplaced Pages, but it is given undue weight in this article. The topic of anti-semitism should probably be moved into the criticism section and condensed to a paragraph. It should be moved to On the Jewish Question, or an article on Marx's antisemitism could be started.--Bkwillwm (talk) 02:34, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree Bkwillwm but 20 days has passed but nothing changed. So can we move anti semitism section to criticism part? IMO, that s nonsense to accuse Marx being an anti semitic, because he wrote many pages about many things and this small quote only shows the sociological view of judaism. And what`s that sentence "Jonathan Sacks has written that virtually all major enlightenment philosophers were antisemitic, including Voltaire, Kant, Hegel and Nietzsche." It is not objective. Is it so easy that to accuse these thinkers being anti semitic by giving some references to some Rabbi s ?? I can make many references, because some religious people are saying "Marx is the enemy of the people, because he is against nations and religions and family, and blabla person says that all communists are the same", so is it okey? Anyway I ll move this section into criticism part or to the On the Jewish Question article. -- 85.107.160.10 (talk) 19:35, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

This section falsely names as an enlightenment philosopher, who wrote a good hundred years after Voltaire and Kant, and is better described as a romantic or existentialist. Also, given the extreme nature of the quotation form Marx's "On the Jewish Question", is it really appropriate to saddle Kant, Hegel, Voltaire, and "virtually all major enlightenment philosophers" with having similar views? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.199.50.58 (talk) 17:04, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me, that "on the jewish question" should be held as one of the first significant anti-racist tracts in the enlightenment. It was in defence of the liberation of minority groups, not just jews. This is about the protection of minority rights in view of an over powerful state! Surely this is significant as a German writer! I suspect that many of those who read it as an anti-semitic text do so because of the anti-semitism that existed under Stalinism and are unfortunately conflating Stalinism as the realisation of Marx's thought (which of course is inaccurate).--Daniel jones (talk) 08:20, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Inclusion in WikiProject Human rights

I have added this article to the Human rights project because Karl Marx and Marxism has a bearing on human rights in a number of different ways. Karl Marx is referenced directly from Human rights because of his theories on property and surplus value, and the effect this has on the right to own property (from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights). Marx, and communism, also advocates many of the ecomonic and social rights which are included in the UDHR and which have historically marked the different approach to rights taken by the east and the west. Tkn20 (talk) 15:01, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes but Marx's theory was also used to counter notions of indivudal rights and resulted in the most murderous regimes in Human history. Nearly 2/3 of all people killed by governments were killed by Marxist-Leninist governments (about 110 million). See ]

Telaviv1 (talk) 11:24, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I am really writing this post to counter the claims that Marxism has direct responsibility for human rights violations, or the regimes it has inspired, (although admittedly at the end of the day Marxism may hold some indirect reponsibility). I think the first person who posted may have a point, however to Telaviv one, although i agree with you that nearly every 'communist' regime has become a tyranny or mobocracy, you also have to realise that nearly every communist regime has not been at all orthodox Marxist. In orthodx marxism (which I dont support) Russia in 1917 would not have been fit to enter communism because it was mainly inhabited by a majority of agriculturalists, it was backwards, and most of its populace was uneducated or illeterate. China qualified even less, as it was totally backwards, and Mao basically disregarded orthodox Marxism, not to even mention cambodia or vietnam. I dont think was perfect, and I am no communist, but I think ideas can be learnt from every notweworthy philosophy, even Marx. You also have to realise Marx's motive for supporting communism was moral/ideological, whereas perhaps with the majority of revolutionary communists the reasons were nationalistic or materialistic, and therefore more associated with the right. What I am saying is that if Marx dictated that communist states should function as they have and do today, yes maybe human rights violations would deserve a mention, but his ideology is not to blame, it is the

On The Jewish Question

The claim, in the original article, attributed to Bauer, to the effect that "Those critics who see this as a foretaste of Mein Kampf overlook one essential point: in spite of the clumsy phraseology and crude stereotyping, the essay was actually written as a defence of the Jews. It was a retort to Bruno Bauer, who had argued that Jews should not be granted full civic rights and freedoms unless they were baptised as Christians."

is entirely idiotic: Bauer emphatically does not think Jews should be baptized! On the contrary, he says that 'the basis of the state must be secular', because only then will every Jew, Christian and Muslim be treated as equals. Has any one of these people who call Marx and/or Bauer an antisemite ever read Marx and/or Bauer? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.10.170 (talk) 22:00, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I haven't read Bauer and you may be right about him but I have read "On the Jewish Question" and there is no doubt in my mind that it is antimsemitic. I suggest that you read it again. - especially the second half.

Telaviv1 (talk) 16:16, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

The section on Marx's alleged anti-semitism is way too big for the article. Its out of porportion given the vast scope of his ideas and as such is undue-weight. I see another editor attempted to address this issue but apparently there needs to be some discussion about it. Does anyone object to making that section more concise and trimming it to a section called, "On the Jewish Question?," linking the the larger article on the sub-topic for greater depth? The proposed edit here, shortening this to one paragraph pointing to the larger article seems about the right size, but I'm open. Thanks.Giovanni33 (talk) 06:26, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Since anti-Semitism is prevalent in formerly communist countries, I do not think giving a lot of space to Marx's anti-Semitism is giving undue weight. I'm still shocked as to how anti-Semitic he was, especially given his "Jewishness" (yes, that descriptive can be argued forever, but is basically just a relevant point to me). There is one editor who is both Jewish and an avowed Marxist, and I would ask that he weigh in. OrangeMarlin 06:35, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. Lets see what other editors think about the material as it currently exists and the suggestion to trim it down a bit. I will say that an article on Karl Marx is quite separate from things found in former 'communist" countries. The connection between the two is tenuous at best. The essay On the Jewish Question, while it contains, out of context, some rather ugly use of the language that appears to be quite anti-semitic on its surface--hence the shock-- I think you are mistaken about Marx being anti-semitic, in fact. Its a richly layered essay that was an early piece of writing for Marx in a private latter to Bruno, arguing against him, in defense of Jewish rights, among other issues not related to Jews per se. I think you have to read the entire thing and the letter from Bruno to appreciate this. For a discussion see:

Back to the issue of Marx's view and "Communist States" practice, you should be equally compelled by the fact that the Marxist Left strongly supported the defense of Jewish civil and political rights, and for whatever dogmatic aspects of "assimilationism" that did exist as current within it (I think wrongly denying the importance of cultural and religious identity), this in fact failed to discourage large numbers of Jews from joining Marxist parties, and participating in prominent possitions within Marxist parties, in specific struggles against anti-Semitism. I also recall Rosa Luxemburg's positive take on the current struggle against a Jewish distinctiveness: a determination to repudiate all existing racial and religious prejudices in a new, socialist society. So despite the use of some shocking language, if its seen in proper context of what was actually being argued for as a political line and program, against those on the left at the time who were arguing that was in fact quite anti-semitic, Marx's view stands in opposition to that.Giovanni33 (talk) 09:25, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Very nicely explained. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:28, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks.Giovanni33 (talk) 09:31, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I should respond to your question about trimming the section. Clearly, this is a divisive issue. Some people feel strongly that Marx was anti-Semitic, and others believe not only that Marx was not anti-Semitic but that those who think we was misread his essays criticizing Bauer by reading them literally (since Marx often wrote metaphorically). This is a pretty unbridgable gulf and it has had this consequence: for long periods of time, the article has nothing on anti-Semitism, as the issue is considered trivial. Then someone adds a section on anti-semitism and NPOV leads to a process in which the section grows and grows. Then someone cuts it because they think it is trivial, until someone comes back and creates a new section and the cycle repeats. This cycle has repeated a few times over the past several years.

The most important thing to do in my opinion is to have a spearate article on marx and anti-Semitism that is much more detailed than what we have here, and is a serious article that provides adequate biographical and historical context, as well as debates over how to read Marx, and so on, in which all major views are not only adequately represented but themselves properly contextualized. Then there can be a brief summary in this article with a link to the other article. If this is not done, someone - if not people actively watching this article now, then someone in the next year or two - will renew the cycle by adding more and more stuff. What i am saying is that th eopinions of people actively watching this page are not enough; one (you?) would have to handle it in a way that would anticipate and respond to those people who, without any doubt, will come by this article in a few months or a few years on a mission to publicize Marx's anti-Semitism. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:24, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that analysis, and the history lesson about this section. I certainly agree with your proposal, and it is exactly what I had in mind. I assume the larger article would be Marx on the Jewish Question? If this proposal is agreeable to all parties we can start working on that article to bring it up to standards, moving over the details there, and then shortening the section here. I would be happy to work on that.Giovanni33 (talk) 19:23, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Since articles should not become too long I agree that it is often a good idea to create new articles. If there is sufficient place to fill, the reasonable ideas should pervade at last. However I'm not sure if "Karl Marx and Antisemitism" would be the best choice for an article. It seems to be POV to assume that there is a peculiar relation between KM and Antisemitism. At least, there are no special articles about e.g. "Arthur de Gobineau and antisemitism", or "Karl Marx and Communism" yet. Perhaps instead, it would be interesting to have a more general article "Marxism and Antisemitism" which takes into account not only the 19th century, but also later Marxists living in the 20th century, and how, after the Holocaust, Marxists tried to respond on what had happened. --Schwalker (talk) 22:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I see your concern but I was thinking more to discuss in the various interpretations--and in context--the text "On the Jewish Question." If done properly it can be NPOV and not alleged only one POV, i.e. that it was anti-semitic.Giovanni33 (talk) 00:07, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not paper. be that as it may, I think it is legit to have articles on key texts by Marx (like we have many articles on books and poems and plays). The two essays that typically comprisae "On the jewish Question" are generally considered pivotal texts in Marx's corpus of work and I think they would merit their own article, which could include a section on the question of whterh they are anti-Semitic. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:44, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

The issue of anti-Semitism is a truly minor aspect of his life and work (interestingly, it seems not to have been an issue at all in his lifetime). There are, of course, a handful of noisy complaints (as some editors indicate above) making this accusation, based on out of context and/or wild misinterpretations of the On the Jewish Question review, and generally motivated by a one dimensional anti-communism. It should be remembered that Marx is writing a century before the Holocaust, at a time when Germany was moving towards, not away from, emancipation for Jews. Marx was unquestionably on the side of Jewish people, however hard hitting his treatment of Judaism (and of course religion in general) was. If one is to be, as thr young Marx was, on a quest for the truly radical reformulation of human life, and rooting out all institutional fetters on the true human liberation he (and others in his circle) was reaching for, religion--including Judaism, was going to take a beating. This, to me, is a far cry from anti-Semitism--the attack on Jews qua Jews. It can probably be safely argued that the Jewish question writings have little at all to do with Jews per se. Boodlesthecat 01:00, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

on chomksy

An editor removed Chomsky as having been influenced by Marx? All modern socialists are influenced by Marx. And while its true that Bakunin is a more precise and distinct influence, keep in mind that Bakunin was himself influenced by Marx as well, in particular Marx's economic analysis, which he worked on translating. In short Chomsky should probably be returned, although its not a big deal. The influence section could get very large...Giovanni33 (talk) 06:43, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I checked out Chomsky's views after seeing the deletion, and have come to the conclusion that the deletion is correct. On more than one occasion Chomsky has explicitly rejected Marxism, describing it as a religion. --Mia-etol (talk) 07:38, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that is correct, Chomsky would hold that view. Chomsky is not a Marxist. However, this does not mean his brand of libertarian socialism is not heavily influenced by Marx. It is. So the real question is one of influence. But, its not a big deal, and if Chomsky specifically wants to distance himself from Marx to distinguish his ideology from Marxism, then that is fine with me.Giovanni33 (talk) 09:34, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Just for kicks, I looked up the book, "The Social and Political Thought of Noam Chomsky by Alison Edgley; Routledge, 2000. This discusses Chomsky's thought, and it has references to Marx on 32 different pages (200 page book). As expected, it discusses the influences, so close that is serves as means to compare and contrast the differences, which often are only a matter of emphasis (a lot of it regarding the effect of the economy on the state). To quote a passage, "It has been established that there is a discernible difference between Marx and Chomsky in terms of the emphasis placed on the role of the state in capitalist society, to the extent that Chomsky always refers to 'state capitalism', rather than simply capitalism. We see by this emphasis that Chomsky is keen to highlight the role of agency in social and political affairs, but in a way which recognises the influence of non-reified structural characteristics of society. The question that may now be raised is what effect does this shift of emphasis have on state theory, which has of course been massively influenced by Marx's nascent ideas? In other words, the question is whether Chomsky's observations and claims offer anything distinctive to debates on state theory and in so doing thereby constitute a theory of the state." This is also common in the book, and I quote, "Despite the obvious closeness of Chomsky's analysis to Marx's, there is a distinct shift of emphasis." So while Chomsky would never call himself a Marxist, but be highly critical, I doubt that even he would deny crediting significant influence of Marx.Giovanni33 (talk) 09:59, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

for some reason i cannot revert the latest vandalism by cowmanlightsaber. Please someone else try. --maxrspct ping me 20:40, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Their 6 cummulative edits are self-annuling and have no effect on the article. --Schwalker (talk) 09:22, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes I see now.. what a palava. --maxrspct ping me 17:02, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

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