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Revision as of 18:10, 26 July 2008 editIkip (talk | contribs)59,234 edits Why I merged the four articles: :::::::Prison, since the handful of edits you have been involved with involves deleting articles, Special:Contributions/Prisongangleader I wonder how concerned← Previous edit Revision as of 18:12, 26 July 2008 edit undoIkip (talk | contribs)59,234 edits Why I merged the four articles: moved commentsNext edit →
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I need some help, I have spent 6 hours straight working on this, and I am still not done. With all of the pages, templates and coding I am sure I made some mistakes, and for that I apologize. I will gladly fix any mistakes I make. thank you for your understanding. ] (]) 17:30, 26 July 2008 (UTC) I need some help, I have spent 6 hours straight working on this, and I am still not done. With all of the pages, templates and coding I am sure I made some mistakes, and for that I apologize. I will gladly fix any mistakes I make. thank you for your understanding. ] (]) 17:30, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
:Co-opping people into your project seems a little bent to me (I came here via an article you are saving). You should ''ask'' those editors if they want to be a member of this specific project. --] (]) 17:53, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
::: Hold on a minute - isn't meta a separate project - why is an article there being redirected here with no discussion there? --] (]) 17:56, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
::::Oh it isn't that big of a deal. No one was at WICU anyway. I can't speak to the AIW/project:inclusionism mergers, but the WICU one was fine and should have been done earlier. ] (]) 17:57, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
:::::Prisongangleader and Protonk thanks for your hard work and comments. Prisongangleader thanks for your concerns. Redirecting articles is really common between projects. ] (]) 18:07, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
:::::: Merging content is fine - merging ''members'' isn't it - that's bent. You might argue that the core aims are the same but that's not an assumption you should make on behalf of other editors. They need to be asked. --] (]) 18:04, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Prisongangleader: good point. Who would you like me to ask I would love to ask them. Can you help me? I will probably need a bot to do it though, are you familiar with bots?
:::::::Prison, since the handful of edits you have been involved with involves deleting articles, ] I wonder how concerned you are about this projects goals and aspirations, especially since inclusionist members would probably fight against those AfDs. ] (]) 18:06, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Revision as of 18:12, 26 July 2008

WikiProject iconArticle Rescue Squadron
WikiProject iconThis page is within the scope of the Article Rescue Squadron WikiProject, a collaborative effort to rescue items from deletion when they can be improved through regular editing. If you would like to participate, visit the project page, where you can help improve Misplaced Pages articles considered by others to be based upon notable topics.Article Rescue SquadronWikipedia:Article Rescue SquadronTemplate:WikiProject Article Rescue SquadronArticle Rescue Squadron

Welcome to the talkpage of the Article Rescue Squadron. If you are looking for assistance to rescue an article please follow these instructions. Template:Multidel

Archive
Archives

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discussion

DISCUSSION:

RESPONSE:
WITTY RETORT:
PERSONAL ATTACK:

Underhand Deletionist land-grab

Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)#Expansion of CSD A7


Trollderella 22:49, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I haven't expressed an opinion yet, but how is it underhanded when open discussion is ongoing at both WP:CSD and Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)? Superm401 | Talk 20:25, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

How do I sign up?

I'm a staunch inclusionist, every Joe, Tom, Dick, Harry and Bill gates should have their own article. How do Isign up for this project? And how can we advertise this project as it seems to have so few members? Loom91 13:30, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Merge

I stubbed this a while back, and Im glad to see it working somewhat. But I think it needs a lift and that requires a repurposing toward what its really about. I supported and still do support inclusion of facts, rather than censorship. Too much inclusion means divergence unfortunately, and I think we need to work to converge certain things for the sake of organizing them. I think people can get behind that. Integration isnt exclusive, but instead focuses on cross-linking and merging redundant articles in a way that makes development easier, and forking less interesting. Comments ?-Ste|vertigo 02:20, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

IMO those are completely different topics that shouldn't be combined. Good linking and splitting/merging is. if I'm not terribly mistaken, clearly described and little debated. In some cases it can form a workaround disagreements between "inclusionists" and "deletionists" by moving less relevant subjects out of articles to pages of their own. But it doesn't deal with the final question: to delete or to keep. Harald88 12:21, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Inclusion may in fact be different than Integration, which implies merging, and some reduction of redundancy. I was among the first outspoken "inclusionists" and was also the one who stubbed this project as a local outpost. This project doesnt appear to be goal-focused and therefore isnt doing anything. I suggest integrating into Integration, because in reality these arent so different, and inclusionism must be intelligent anyway, requiring careful editing, etc. -Ste|vertigo 15:14, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Nice goals but...

This project sounds less fix-focussed than , and I think of participating.

IMO, the currently applied deletion-by-vote is riduculous, resulting in deletion of stubs with potential, as well as maintaining articles that according to policy don't belong in Misplaced Pages (I'm against inclusion of subjects that are themselves inherently against WP policy).

It would be nice if the deletion process could be changed to a process that is stricly based on Misplaced Pages policy, together with one or two precisions of policy. But how to make that happen? It appears that none of the participants knows how this may be achieved. I fear that without a detailed action plan not much (if anything) will be achieved. Harald88 12:45, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, AfD is not a vote - that's why the old "votes for deletion" page was deleted! If consensus (as judged by the closing admin) has formed to delete the article, then it gets whacked. That's what "stricly based on Misplaced Pages policy" means! There is no definitive guide as to which articles should stay and which should be deleted, except for consensus in individual cases. Original research and dictionary definitions go, of course, but even there some debate is needed to determine whether something is really OR or if it's just incredibly obscure, or alternatively, to decide whether an entry has any potential beyond being transwikied to Wiktionary. For some suggestions about possible reform of AfD, there have been signs of movement at Misplaced Pages:AfD reform.
As for this project, I agree, it hardly seems a project at all. In fact it seems nothing more than an association. Now, WikiProject AfD Salvage I could sign up for - I've done a couple of AfD saves before. But there's a fine line here. If this project seeks to pursue its goals through a co-ordinated attempt to push inclusionist policies and flood AfD votes, then I don't think it would be too long before it arrives at WP:MFD. WikiProjects are meant to build article content, not be launch-pads for policies and vote-stacking, and the WikiProjects that have got into hot water have been precisely those. If, on the other hand, it aims to promote inclusion by encouraging editors to write the type of article unlikely to get nominated for deletion (verified and reliably referenced would be a good start), making rescue attempts of salvagable articles on prod or afd (and the simple truth is that a lot of nominated articles are junk, whether you are inclusionist or deletionist... but others are potentially valid, even if they need a complete rewrite), and integrating unexpandable substubs, then that's great by me. The only evidence I can see of any co-ordinated activity on these fronts, though, is over at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Integration. I don't think the merge request was a bad idea at all - unless this "project" actually starts doing something then it isn't a project at all and ought to be renamed to reflect this. TheGrappler 03:54, 23 July 2006 (UTC) (In fact I'd strongly suggest renaming it even if it stays as a "project". It's utterly unacceptable to use WikiProjects to promote factions, whether on- or off-wiki. We already generate more heat than light when "keep" and "delete" votes collide... then by labelling ourselves as "inclusionist" vs "deletionist" - rather than acknowledging that there may be deeper or subtler underlying issues - we degenerate further. Building up Misplaced Pages structures and institutions to support particular factions and expecting no harm to come of it is naive. I have to say that AfD often infuriates me, and I can understand people holding grievances from the results. But to "fight back" under the reasoning that the best organized "team" is going to "win" is to turn Misplaced Pages into a battleground. This place is stressful enough as it is... TheGrappler 04:05, 23 July 2006 (UTC))

Some extra eyes?

I'm worried that there are some underhanded tactics going on on Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Dungeon Majesty - I'd appreciate some more eyes on the problem, please take a look if you have time, yours, Carfiend 22:52, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Project directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 13:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Members of this project may be interested in...

Misplaced Pages Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Misplaced Pages Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 18:51, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Deletionists and the Gundam pages

On 1/10/7 several Deletionists proposed a total of 17 different mobile suits from the Gundam anime series for deletion. While I do not think this is a deliberate attempt to overwhelm the already inadequate time taken in the deletion process, I feel this is the result. No previous attempt was made by any of the Deletionists to discuss this on any related talk page, though some have been harshly critical of WP:GUNDAMs efforts to clean up these pages, even though the group has been in existance approximately one month and none of the Deletionists made any attempt at cleanup prior to the mass posting of deletion recommendations. Personally, I think this would make an excellent test case to show the flaws of the existing deletion system, which makes deletion far too easy. Edward321 14:57, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

More Shotgunning of Gundam articles

http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Moreschi

25 more today. Good faith is becoming harder to assume. Edward321 03:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Statistics of Interest

A couple days back, I reviewed some December deletion statistics. They may be of interest to this group. (Original posting was on Misplaced Pages talk:Deletion review.)

I just did some quick analysis of December deletion statistics. Deletion log entries are for all spaces (article, talk, User, Image, etc...)

  • Rough deletion log entries (by approximate offsets, should be within 1K): 114,000 entries
  • % of entries restorations: 2.02% (111 of sampled 5,500).
  • Deletions: ~111,700
  • Restores: ~2,300
  • Net Deletions: 109,400
  • Net Deletions/Day: ~3,529
  • Deletion Reviews Opened: 210 (6.77 per day average, high of 15)
  • Deletions Reviewed: 0.188% (ignoring the fact that some reviews are of keep decisions at AFD)
  • Deletions overturned: 53 (excludes PRODs and overturns by deleting admin while DRV underway)
  • Keeps overturned: 7
  • Overturn rate: About 30%-33% for controversial items
  • Deletions reviewed and overturned by DRV: ~0.05% (one-twentieth of one percent)
  • Deletion overturns that were either a redlink or a protected deleted page in mid-January: 11 of 53 (didn't test for redirects), so at least 20% of deletion overturns end up deleted after a(another) round at XfD.

GRBerry 14:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Moved from main page

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Inclusionist (talk) 13:08, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Moved content from meta:Talk:Association of Inclusionist Wikipedians/Archive

Today editors preffer deleting over improving

When I first time wrote an article to Misplaced Pages (Communist party of Yugoslavia, 2004) it was written in bad English, without references, without sections, two factual errors (years) and two non-neutral sentences. But, other contributors soon improved it, and the article looks very well now. The policy of Misplaced Pages then was "Do not care about errors, it will be fixed by the time".

After four years, in 2008, I tried to write two new articles (mulinux and asmutils). Rather than article improvement, the first reaction, ten minutes after submitting was "Proposed for deletion reason WP:N". Firstly, I waste the time to understand what does it mean. Then I had to search some peer reviewed journals or conference papers who mention these topics, and now I check the pages every day, because the some administrators became as destructive as vandals.

Notability is quite subjective decision. I have general paper encyclopedia "Mala Prosvetina Enciklopedija" written in Yugoslavia in 1985. In this encyclopedia with 50000 articles on 3000 pages, written with font size 5, for example, many local university professors are notable, while Bill Gates has no article (although in 1985 he was quite famous). Not mention that paper encyclopedia does not cite source, they simply give list of the contributors.

Inclusionism Deletionism Scale Proposal

I think it would be interesting if there was a scale that Wikipedians could use to measure their self-identified level of inclusionism or deletionism in their wikiphilosophy and to allow for easier communication of these points of view by sharing a common terminology and measuring system. In any case, it would make for interesting userboxes. :P The scale ranges from negative five to positive five. The lower the number, the more deletionist the philosophy, the higher, the greater tolerance for inclusion. Zero, obviously, is neutral. Anyway, here's an outline of my proposed scale:

  • -5 Misplaced Pages should offer no original content whatsoever. It should only offer links to reliable websites and print references.
  • -4 Misplaced Pages should maintain only a tight core of widely accepted encyclopedic topics. Articles should include on the most need-to-know information on their respective subjects; no trivia, fluff or excessive detail.
  • -3 Misplaced Pages should enact policy changes to restrict the inclusion of obscure, esoteric or pop cultural subjects. All additions lacking obviously reliable sources should be deleted on sight.
  • -2 Misplaced Pages should be much stricter in its enforcement of deletion policies.
  • -1 Misplaced Pages should be slightly stricter in its enforcement of deletion policies.
  • 0 Misplaced Pages's standards for inclusion and deletion are exactly right as they are.
  • +1 Misplaced Pages should be slightly more relaxed in its enforcement of deletion policies.
  • +2 Misplaced Pages should greatly relax its notability requirements.
  • +3 Misplaced Pages should completely do away with notability standards. Any content that can be verified by reliable, independant sources is an acceptable addition.
  • +4 Only vandalism can be removed freely. Content must be demonstrated to be inaccurate through a reliable source before it can be removed, although policies regarding what constitutes an accurate source should be greatly relaxed.
  • +5 No content should ever be deleted from Misplaced Pages. Only positive contributions should be accepted.

Not sure what we should call this scale, but I'm sure someone here can think of something spiffy. If anyone has any comments, ideas, criticisms, or whatever, please reply. I think we could make something interesting here. :) Abyssal leviathin 06:53, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Template for members

There needs to be a template which members can add to their user pages prominently displayed on this page, is there one already, or should i make one? Odessaukrain 11:40, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind, there already is one. {{inclusionist}} Odessaukrain 11:51, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Removed quotes to talk

To me, this seems like banal quotes:

I get frustrated by people using the Google 'test' as authoritative - if the web already knew it all there would be less need for Misplaced Pages!Pcb21
How depressing. I found the information I was looking for, only to discover that someone is trying to delete it.Mark Richards
as said in this email from our beloved BDFL.
The Moving Finger writes: and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
Omar Khayyám (translation of Edward FitzGerald)

I removed these to talk, if someone disagrees, they can add it back. If someone wants to add a quotes section, they are welcome too.

I am rewriting the introduction. Currently the intro feels like a small group of close friends wrote the introduction, as illustrated in this quote "as said in this email from our beloved BDFL." I don't know BDFL, and I hazard to guess most inclusionist don't either.

I am trying to make this introduction appeal to more people.

Odessaukrain 11:51, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Liberal quote

I removed Wikiliberal quote from the intro:

though it's pretty clear that inclusionists here are generally Wikiliberal.

This maybe the case, but the majority of Americans consider liberal to be bad. There maybe some conservative inclusionists which maybe turned off by this statment.

Odessaukrain 12:24, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Removed long intro to adding article that needs immediate attention

In a continued effort to streamline and make this page more appealing to a wider audience, I removed the long intro to adding article that needs immediate attention:

Articles for Deletion (AfD) and Deletion Review pages that AIW members ought to investigate (it is a good idea to check the AfD often).

The idea is that these are votes which AIW members should be aware of, so we can read the articles and discussions and then weigh in appropriately. Please include a very brief description of who/what the article is about (though the presence of this summary does not mean that AIW members should fail to read the article itself).

End of moved content from meta:Talk:Association of Inclusionist Wikipedians/Archive

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Moved from Wikipedia_talk:Intensive_Care_Unit

HAS THE ICU TEAM-PROJECT DIED ?

??? Low Sea (talk) 19:07, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

No, but it does seem to have lost some momentum. Frankly, I haven't seen too many articles that were in the condition we're looking for. They're either pretty obviously good and worth keeping, or pretty obviously need to be deleted and are beyond salvage. - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 21:09, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Possible articles to admit

See this edit. --Happy Festival of Castor and Pollux! Sincerely, Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 16:47, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

End of moved content from Wikipedia_talk:Intensive_Care_Unit

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Original Article Rescue Squadron talk page

Barnstar proposal

I personally have no skill making barnstar templates, but I think it would be a good idea if we did somehow have an Article Rescue Squadron barnstar (unless we do have one and I just don't see it) for editors who making considerable contributions to articles that result in their rescue. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 15:41, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

What sort of thing do you want? F9T 09:59, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
A Barnstar! Rescue
Someone had already uploaded this 'rescue' barnstar, so I snagged it to try a Rescue Squadron barnstar. I can alternately create a different one for us exclusively (any of you who saw mylogo know what I can do, though I *think* I'd just wrap a barnstar in a life preserver, because it's saucy ;-) --Thespian 11:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Cool! Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 16:16, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
A Barnstar! Rescue from Deletion Barnstar
There is also the Rescue from Deletion Barnstar with this tall image of a helicopter. I'm not sure whether it's been approved by some awards committee, but requiring that would be very un-wiki.--chaser - t 04:27, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I LOVE this one and speaks to the idea of saving an article as well. I think we could have more than one anyway. Benjiboi 07:40, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, that is nice! Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 15:04, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

One more:

A Barnstar! Rescue More!
As I mentioned I was likely to do above, here's another barnstar based on my previously proposed Rescue Squad logo. Since it's all mine, and I give of it to this project, it won't have any conflicts (though I think the helicopter is cute). --Thespian 12:27, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
This one also nicely ties in our project's regular logo. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 15:04, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Howabout combining the helicopter and this one and simply adding the life-preserver onto the star like we just pulled it from the river? Benjiboi 19:02, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
That is an excellent idea if anyone can do it!! :) Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 20:45, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
That would make the life preserver pretty tiny, though. I don't think it will work that well, but I can try tonight. --Thespian 20:53, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Maybe make the helicopter image a wee bit bigger and tweak the life-preserver to pop more. Benjiboi 21:05, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Making the Helicopter bigger is actually going to worsen the problem. the issue is that barnstar (w/copter) is already bigger than most barnstars, and the barnstar is little. So making the copter bigger is not the right response; if anything, I would make it smaller or find a different copter for it. But you're still going to have a life preserver that's about 4 pixels high at that size, and there's not a lot you can do at that size with it to make it pop more; it's just Too Tiny. --Thespian 21:26, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I should note that the image I linked is Barnstar rescue 04.png. There are other images in that numbering sequence with the same theme: 1, 2, and 3, and a different helicopter.--chaser - t 21:45, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I prefer the helicopter one we have and it is just a barnstar so see what it looks like and we can tweak from there. If the helicopter can't get bigger then simply enlarge the star a bit. Benjiboi 22:32, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Another idea would be to maybe have just the life preserver as a "level 1" award for someone who rescues one article and the one with the helicopter and the life preserver as a "level 2" award for someone who has rescued multiple articles? Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 23:22, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
That would be a keen idea. I can make the barnstars match, and then size will be less relevant, because anyone who rescues several articles will have seen the single one a time or two ;-) --Thespian 04:05, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I am happy to see that nice response! I do think we should start giving these out somehow, as I've noticed some really commendable successes thus far. Although the following article does not have an ARS tag, I think Empty2005 might merit such recognition for this effort. Regards, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 06:13, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
This is really OT, but I can't resist sharing the literal war story of a friend of mine, who retired from the Air Force as an E-8 parajumper, with every intention of getting his doctorate and teaching at the university level. Somehow, friends got him to first take "one more tour" in a protective detail in Iraq (mostly as a paramedic), and then, when he had taught for another semester, got him for one last one.
He wasn't as lucky on this tour; I think it was suggestive when he said, very calmly, that he really appreciated how quickly the British got fighters and tanks to where they were ambushed. He brightened somewhat, and brought up the old saying "guns don't kill people. People kill people", and explained that his gun saved him. It wasn't that he used it, but he was wearing a M1911, in a shoulder holster, in an upside-down vehicle. A bullet smashed the pistol, but also kept it from going into his chest.
I wonder if I should ask him about PJs and Barnstars? Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 22:48, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

New Graphic

OK, I have made the suggested graphic, how about this?

A Barnstar! Article Rescue Barnstar
This Article Rescue Barnstar is awarded by the Article Rescue Squadron for outstanding work in preventing an article of encyclopedic content from deletion.

I think that gets it all together. Jim Miller (talk) 21:55, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I think that looks wonderful. Ties all the earlier ones together, and just looks generally awesome. Great job! Vickser (talk) 23:29, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Made one more. I actually prefer this graphic due to its size and because the helicopter looks more like a US Coast Guard search and rescue one:

A Barnstar! Article Rescue Barnstar
This Article Rescue Barnstar is awarded by the Article Rescue Squadron for outstanding work in preventing an article of encyclopedic content from deletion. Jim Miller (talk) 14:28, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Looks good! I added a number of articles to our category so let's see how many of us can earn these barnstars by the end of the week!  :) --Happy editing! Sincerely, Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 18:24, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I think this version looks a little cleaner. Both are very nice though. Vickser (talk) 18:26, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Ooops! Lol. I just saw this second one after i created a project template (at top of this page) and Template:The Rescue Barnstar which is now listed at Misplaced Pages:Barnstars. I'm more enamored with the first helicopter/image than the second. Banjeboi 00:57, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Nothing says we can't use one for the Project Template and the other for a barnstar. I was actually thinking we could leave the project page template as you designed it (maybe reduce the size of the image because it's resolution is showing a bit at 125px). We could use the one with the orange copter to reward those who find and tag articles for rescue, and then we could use the star User:Thespian made as a barnstar for editing an article into shape. Should be easy enough to whip up the templates. Jim Miller (talk) 20:18, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Suggest {{rescue}} be mentioned in the AfD Deletion policy article

I would have added it myself, but I'm not sure how you would want to position rescuing after AfD nomination vs. using improvement templates as an alternative to nominating for deletion. Once an article has been AfD-nominated, would you add two tags to rescue it? For example: "{{rescue}}{{npov}}" rather than just "{{rescue}}". Anyway, good luck with your work ...I rescued Bed management from AfD recently so I have some idea what the task involves: I knew nothing whatsoever about the subject until I decided to rescue it! - Pointillist (talk) 22:47, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Since {{rescue}} is tied directly to the AfD procedure, the page to mention the template would be Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion. Since that is the page documenting the procedure. However the template is already mentioned at that page. Taemyr (talk) 22:58, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
And nice work on Bed management. Taemyr (talk) 23:01, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

DRV rescue template?

I think a DRV rescue template should be made as well for such articles as Alien and Predator timeline. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 00:13, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Problematic. ARS is about improving articles up to a state where they will pass. For DRV the articles are deleted, so can not be accessed. Taemyr (talk) 15:41, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Not always as some DRVs are for articles that were kept. --Happy editing! Sincerely, Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 02:54, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Agreed, DRV os suppose to be about teh AfD itself not the article per se. If there is a DRV in process, however, I'm not opposed to improving an article during DRV so those looking can see improvements in process. Banjeboi 02:52, 24 July 2008 (UTC)


Terry Ananny

Please see talk page of article re: Terry Ananny Canadian UNICEF Artist which states that Terry Ananny is a Canadian artist with notable collections such as Ottawa Senators Hockey Club, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp., Ottawa General Hospital - Riverside Campus, CTV Television Corporation, Global Television, Canada House (Canadian Embassy in Brussels, Belgium) and Canadian Medical Association. Her work has illustrated the cover of Canadian Health Services Research Foundation 2000 Annual Report Cover Her work has been selected by UNICEF for greeting cards in the years 1998, 2001, 2002, 2004 (three cards), 2006, 2007, 2008 and just recently selected for UNICEF's Christmas in Canada 2010 greeting card collection. Her work has appeared on Canada Save the Children cards in 1999, Children's Wish Foundation cards work selected 2006, 2007 and 2008, Mount Sinai Hospital card work selected 2007 and Canadian Greetings card work selected 2006, 2007 and 2008. Her work was chosen by the Quebec Ministry of Education for their 2008 video "Art Speaks", which was distributed throughout the English school board in Quebec. Cornerstone 52 Foundation - Cards Helping Kids has selected Ananny's work to appear on greeting cards in 2006 and 2007. Large corporations have also selected Ananny's work to appear on corporate greeting cards; Amway 2004, Reynolds Mirth Richards and Farmers 2005, Blake, Cassels and Graydon 2007. Her work has appeared on the CD cover "Chantons Noel" 2005 (CPM Distribution). Her work has been collected by Jean Charest, Quebec Liberal Party Residence, Former Prime Minister Jean Chretien and Former Prime Minister Brian Mulroney. Terry Ananny is listed in the following government libraries: Artists in Canada - National Gallery of Canada Art Gallery of Ontario Musee d'art Contemporain de Montreal . Ananny has also attained notability through having over one thousand paintings in corporate and private collections world wide... User:Jane Rushmore June 23, 2008 —Preceding comment was added at 04:00, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Update. This was deleted and looks like we could have saved it per Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Terry Ananny. Banjeboi 23:28, 19 July 2008 (UTC)


Rescuing the Warhammer and Ace Combat stuff

Alternatives to rescue the articles themseleves would be to merge and redirect some of them into character lists and other articles. --Happy editing! Sincerely, Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 17:01, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Articles I will be AFDing

In the spirit of co-operation, I've been asked to give you a heads up on the other warhammer articles I will be AFD'd in the next future - this is to give you an opportunity to "rescue them" and avoid the process. I'll check back in two weeks. The articles are:

--Allemandtando (talk) 09:22, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I am going through them today for the quick grammar and format fixes to get the ball rolling. I have also notified The Intensive Care Unit to seek additional help. --Happy Festival of Castor and Pollux! Sincerely, Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 17:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Sorry that edit summary is to get plenty of attention - see here. --Allemandtando (talk) 21:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
You know, to be honest I'm not convinced any of those articles are about encyclopedic topics. With all due respect to LGRdC and others who believe those articles are rescue worthy, articles that get tagged for rescue will only get rescued if individual members of ARS agree with the initial assessor and decide they want to put in the work to source, wikify and expand the articles. Personally, I'm not a big believer in putting too much fictional in world stuff on wikipedia because it tends to be relatively thin on third party sources. I'd rather save things like Anchor store, New Jersey School Report Card and GayNZ.com, to name some recent examples of rescued articles. I'd say, if you do want to try out an ARS perspective, don't blindly try to save articles you otherwise believe should be deleted. Instead, take a look at things as they get listed, find one or two that interest you, and hit up some databases to see what sources you can find and improvements you can make. Just as ARS isn't about stacking keep votes, it's also not about saving things that you don't think are encyclopedic. Look at the ARS list not as a definitive "this is encylopedic and should be saved" but rather as a helpful reference of some topics that others thought fit that criterion, and then apply your own judgment. From what I can tell, that's what the other ARSers do, and if you want to try looking at things the ARS way, that's what I'd recommend you do as well. Vickser (talk) 22:23, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Sure - It's unlikely that I'm going to become an inclusionist (as we define the term here) on the issue of a lot of the fictional articles but frankly my current course of action was going to lead to lots of drama and maybe this is a way of avoiding that - I have access to a lot of very good databases and sources and was an academic researcher before I decided I liked driving a real big car with really shitty mileage, so while I'm not going to be flapping around at AFD saying "keep! keep!" - it does mean that I might be able to find some RS that will keep a notable subject/and or article alive or indeed try and add some real world commentary or scholarly analysis to article where you might not expect to see it --Allemandtando (talk) 00:48, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
I have listed Goge Vandire and Nero Vipus for deletion, and prodded Saul Tarvitz. Since I consider these as obsucere enough that I fail to imagine any secondary sources giving significant coverage. Taemyr (talk) 01:20, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


New project talkpage template

I've created a wikiproject permanent and talkpage template for us to go on articles created for this project - like our template and category pages. This isn't for Article to be rescued. Banjeboi 00:01, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Swimming with dolphins

Update. this one was saved! Woo-hoo! Banjeboi 12:01, 20 July 2008 (UTC)


AfD Questions

How come WP:AFD is within the scope of this project? I asked this question at WT:AFD and was directed to come here. Protonk (talk) 16:01, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

What do you think the ARS aspires to rescue articles from? Where do you think ARS volunteers devote their intention? The preceding questions were rhetorical, the antecedent is not: as an editor quite familiar with AfD and ARS, and who ought to understand the function of each, what is the motivation behind your question? Sincerely, Skomorokh 16:16, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
that's kind of snide. Sure my question was bent at an aim but you could have just said so instead of asking questions like that in response. I asked the question why rather than made the statement "I don't think it is appropriate for the ARS to declare AfD to be in the purview of the project" because I wasn't sure what the reasoning for the banner decision was. I didn't want to crap in someone's cornflakes only to find out that there was some really cool reason why.
but I'll try to answer your questions on face. Obviously ARS rescues articles from deletion (the template instructions make that explicit). Presumably ARS volunteers devote their attention to rescuing articles nominated for deletion. But WP:AFD is a process page. It isn't a project page. To me ARS is there to rectify errors made in deletion nominations by improving the article. The process itself and discussion therein are not related to the rescue squad any more than any process or policy page is. Protonk (talk) 16:32, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I apologize if I came off as snide, but the question did seem disingenuous. If you are wondering why the banner was placed, you could asked Benjiboy who added it. Wikiprojects routinely tag pages (including non-article pages) within their scope, and AfD is certainly seems within the scope of the ARS. The tag doesn't doe much except categorize the page; no big deal I figure. Is it the possibly territorial nature of the claim which worries you? There is consensus that WikiProjects don't need outside permission to tag pages they feel to be within their scope (a recentish ANI thread I think).Skomorokh 16:51, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm not so much looking to grant permission as much as I am looking for a reason. I'll ask benjiboi but I'm sure he'll (?) be along eventually to respond in this thread. Also, if this was a consensus decision someone else should be able to provide an affirmative reason. If not, I'm inclined to propose that the tag be removed. Protonk (talk) 17:15, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Tags don't need consensus or affirmative readings, this is overly dramatic I think. An project participant deemed a certain page to be within the remit of the project, and tagged it accordingly; this is how 99% of tagging takes place. Project tags are cheap and without negative ramifications (unless placed on irrelevant pages). Skomorokh 17:30, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I know. I'm not trying to stir up drama. I just don't think it is appropriate to be there but I'm happy to be told why I'm wrong. Protonk (talk) 17:32, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, not to speak for Benjiboy, but as the general mission of ARS is to rescue articles proposed for deletion (otherwise, it's not much of a "rescue"), I would think that AFD~=the scope of ARS. --Rindis (talk) 17:58, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I would tend to agree with Protonk here, it's extremely difficult to see how the project page WP:Articles for deletion, is within the scope of the project. Taemyr (talk) 20:31, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm a member of the ARS and actually also thought it was a little off-putting when I saw the tag up on AFD, for what it's worth. That said, it is vaguely connected, and I don't think it does any harm. While I wouldn't put it there myself, I don't think it's a particularly big deal one way or the other. Vickser (talk) 20:46, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
This project only exists because a number of editors here seem to believe that the AfD process is flawed, being abused or most likely both. Likewise a number of editors feel AfD is clean-up; appropriate instead of tagging for clean-up, fixing it themselves or otherwise improving articles through regular editing which the AfD says should occur. I believe it still says that "if an article can be improved through regular editing, it is not a good candidate for AfD." Agree that there are many borderline cases but we aren't seeing a lot of thoughtful discussions prior to AfD, instead the vast majority are simply nominated and too often AfD becomes a battleground which makes editing here unpleasant. Outside our wikiverse are regular reports and examples how people get around what they see as deletionism or simply note the fighting. Quite a few articles are deleted not because they aren't notable content but because too few people are putting out AfD fires and there seems little let-up in this flow. Unless the AfD process starts requiring more rigorous steps be followed; like editors go through a few steps to verify that they have made even a cursory search for sources (see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Fag stag for example), that editors demonstrate that they have engaged to discuss their concerns in addition to slapping a tag, like notifying wikiprojects on each article, then we are going to be here for a while. As for the project tag I feel it's totally appropriate, we exist solely because the AfD process isn't working for various reasons. If there is a "Delete the Cruft Wikiproject" I would support them having their tag as well. We're all here to improve Misplaced Pages and have different styles of doing so. Anyone willing to improve the AfD process so this project no longer has any articles to rescue would seem like a good thing to me. Banjeboi 21:30, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) My 2 cents We, as article rescuers have an inherent requirement to be aware of what's in AfD. We may be the final liferaft for those articles. We may edit the during their time in AfD, and bring them up to par. For that reason alone, AfD falls under the scope of ARS. We don't OWN it, we don't SPONSOR it, we're just AWARE of it. I'm note sure why the connection isn't obvious. But hey, then again, I'm Canadian :-) BMW(drive) 21:35, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I think I have a different impression of what the ARS is meant to do. Delete the cruft wikiprojects have been rejected by the community (at MfD's) as canvassing projects. Likewise if this becomes a project motivated by the impression that the AfD process is fundamentally broken such that worthwhile articles are deleted regularly, we should look to dissolving it as well. I won't press this issue further because I'm unlikely to convince you that the AfD process functions reasonably well and I don't have the fight in me to argue about it for pages. Suffice it to say, if your understanding of the purpose of ARS is to fix the "broken" AfD process I think it might seem a tad polemical to put the ARS tag over WT:AFD. Protonk (talk) 21:45, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
While I would not have added the tag on that page (I actually think the relationship is the other way around), I feel a need to respond to this. Are you suggesting that articles about encyclopedic subjects are not deleted as a result of the current process on a regular basis? No minimum time beofre nomination, no requirement for nominators to at least have tried to fix the article by editing it, no need to show that policy and not guidelines are violated as a legitimate reason for deletion. The process may not be broken, but it is certainly bent. There are numerous examples of ARS doing exactly what every editor should strive to do - compile and preserve properly sourced and written articles on every subject that can have an article written about it. You write above that any project based on the idea that AfD doesn't work should be eliminated for pointing out that opinion. I have to disagree. It is a valid opinion, and eliminating the dissidents is not the way to deal with the issue. Jim Miller (talk) 22:10, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
In a word, yes. I'm suggesting that the "failure rate" (here only considering false positives) is much lower than we guess anecdotally. I've made this argument at WT:AFD but I'll repeat it here (shorter, I promise) for clarity. There are strong structural and procedural safeguards against deletion of a compliant article. The AfD is open to all and available from a central location. the AfD lasts five days (honestly more than enough time). The nominator must present an affirmative case for deletion (or, barring that, a commenter must). Benefit of the doubt leans toward the article. Review exists for process problems. These are non-trivial protections against deletion. If you don't believe me watch what happens when an article that meats WP:N/V/NOR gets nominated (happens all the time). The usual result is a snow keep. NOW, if you mean notable topics, I'm sure that happens. That also doesn't worry me. If a topic is potentially notable but the article doesn't have sources and no one in five days gets off their ass to look for sources, I don't have a problem with deleting the topic. Once someone clicks that red link and creates an article that meets policies and guidelines it is good to go. As for the merits of the project, I agree with you specifically. The goal of the ARS should be the goal of all editors: to improve articles so they can be retained. However that goal has nothing to do with treating the AfD process as adversarial, which seems to be the case here.
You mention this: "You write above that any project based on the idea that AfD doesn't work should be eliminated for pointing out that opinion. I have to disagree. It is a valid opinion, and eliminating the dissidents is not the way to deal with the issue." I'm not sure that is a fair characterization of my opinion. I noted that "fancruft" projects were rightly rejected by the community because they were effectively canvassing efforts aimed at deleting content. I then moved on to note that projects whose primary goals are to treat a community process as fundamentally flawed and thus (presumably) to work against it ought to be treated with suspicion. Some projects are very helpful, but some are not. If the ARS turns into a project that treats AfD as hostile and pushes for a practice of broad standards of inclusion through AfD debate, there is a serious issue at stake. ARS should work on the presumption that AfD is working fine but lacks editors willing to provide sources. in other words, you should be able to assume that articles deleted that have your badge would have been saved but for lack of effort. What I'm seeing here are editors who feel that articles which have had sufficient effort put into them are being deleted anyway. That's not a problem. That opinion isn't my concern. I'm not interested in eliminating the dissidents. I'm interested in the reasoning behind the banner addition to WT:AFD and the responses are certainly intriguing. Protonk (talk) 22:51, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I didn't mean to suggest that this project exists to fix AfD but that this project exists because AfD is not working quite right. If AfD is fixed to the point that this project is no longer useful because articles that shouldn't be deleted aren't then I would move on to what I was doing before - building and improving articles. Frankly the problem may be even further upstream where new articles need to be vetted with a minimum of content and sourcing by more experienced editors before even seeing the light of day. I doubt such a system will be readily embraced but it may curb much of the problem as we are amongst an article's very last chance. Banjeboi 23:03, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I think a big part of the problem is that the tag says that AfD is under the "scope" of the ARS, which is a bit disingenuous. AfD is a community process. This, more or less, is a WikiProject specializing in improving articles at AfD. Saying that a community process is under the scope of a WikiProject implies that AfD is part of ARS, regardless of what the original intention was. If the tag was changed, then I think that would resolve some of the problems here (perhaps say that the ARS participates in AfD or similar). Note that I'm not saying the ARS is a bad thing; on the contrary, I think it's a good venture to possibly improve would-be-deleted articles, but the tag itself probably should be modified. sephiroth bcr 01:20, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Good point. Our tag is based on other wikiproject tags so that particular wording is widely in use. Certainly tweaking the grammar a bit could help here though. I'll have a look at some other wikiproject tags and see if there is some more NPOV wording. Banjeboi 19:12, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Lol. well that didn't take too long! Quite a few do use "within the scope of _____", others use "___ is a part of _____", a third option seems to be "supported by _____". I'm not sure any of these is terrific but does anyone have suggestions of what may work better? If not I'm inclined to simply switch to "supported by" as being the least problematic towards this issue. Banjeboi 19:19, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Added the Afd to Misplaced Pages:Lamest edit wars

Inclusionist (talk) 14:15, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I am not so sure about this entry. 3 AfD nom's is not all that much. If included the entry probably belongs under; Misplaced Pages:Lamest edit wars#Metapages. There is no reason to ignore the fact that the rest of the list is sorted alphabetically. Taemyr (talk) 15:03, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion to advertise Misplaced Pages:Article Rescue Squadron

We should create a Misplaced Pages:Lamest deletion wars page similar to Misplaced Pages:Lamest edit wars, this will give a lot of publicity to the work of Misplaced Pages:Article Rescue Squadron and show the excesses of the absurd Afds. Inclusionist (talk) 14:15, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:NPA. Protonk (talk) 15:14, 26 July 2008 (UTC) rockin. Thanks. Protonk (talk) 17:07, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Why I merged the four articles

I merged the four articles:

because:

  1. the articles focus on the same core issues,
  2. the same core beliefs, and
  3. the same core desires,
  4. both have the same layout.
  5. What these three groups are doing is duplicating each others work. Each had strengths and each had weaknesses.

Now inclusionist can all be building upon one single page.

I attempted all the content intact.

I kept the best of all articles:

  1. From ICU I kept the complex but efficient way editors can list articles they want to keep
  2. From the original Article Rescue Squadron I kept much of the humor and the extensive see also section. I also kept the name because I genuinely feel it inspires people more than ICU or Inclusionist.
  3. From Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Inclusion I kept the membership lists (thousands of wikipedians support our cause)! And the eloquently written introduction and purpose.

I need some help, I have spent 6 hours straight working on this, and I am still not done. With all of the pages, templates and coding I am sure I made some mistakes, and for that I apologize. I will gladly fix any mistakes I make. thank you for your understanding. Inclusionist (talk) 17:30, 26 July 2008 (UTC)