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Poland B‑class High‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Poland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Poland on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PolandWikipedia:WikiProject PolandTemplate:WikiProject PolandPoland B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Title

There is article "Holocaust in Nazi-occupated Lithuania", so this one should be Holocaust in Nazi-occupated Poland, due to fact, there was no such state as independend Poland during WW2. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.6.242.136 (talk) 17:24, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Need for expantion

While most of this article is true, there are some things that need further explaining.

It is a common misconception that occupied Poland was a country of horror where only public executions ever happened. In fact, most people were just trying to live their lives under German rule. Though the German policy towards the people was way harsher than in France or Netherlands, most Poles were by no way heroes. It should be enough to say that the Polish Secret State was quite active in Warsaw and it's suburbs but to make a military action in Cracow they needed to move people from the capital.

While it is literally true that there were never a collaborative quasi-government in the occupied Poland, it was just because the Germans never needed or wanted such a thing. There are at least two known cases where signoficant people from pre-war Poland were tryng to establish such a quasi-government, but their attempts were just ignored by Germans.

Another thing - there were of course several thousand heroes who risked their life to help Jews survive and a similar number of so-called Jew-hunters (Polish people who were searching for hiding Jews and reporting them to Germans for money, their Polish name "szmalcownik" is related to their motives - in Polish slang "szmal" or "szmalec" means "money"). But both heroes and Jew-hunters were thousands among millions of Poles who were just unconcerned about their Jewish neighbours getting killed. Many Poles were even openly satisfied about it.

While there were valid military reasons not to help the Warsaw Ghetto uprising in their fight and, above all, not to let the fight spread to other parts of the city, there were virtually no attempt made to let the Ghetto open and enable Jews trapped there, to flee. The only attempt was made by communist Gwardia Ludowa, not recognized by the "official" Secret State.

One can't say that Poles participated, or even appreciated the Holocaust as a rule, but it is a fact, that most of them were trying hard not to think of it and ignore the trains of death.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.210.136.57 (talk • contribs)

The page should be broken up into sections and is lacking references. Also, the above info is very much relevant and should find its place in the article. Pascal.Tesson 12:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the need for sectioning. More refs would be nice, although it does have some even inline references, which is quite good. As for the above info, some of this info may be useful, but some comments of our anon are erroneus or irrelevant.

It is certainly true that most Poles just 'wanted to live through the war'. I see nothing special here, this was certainly true for all people all around the war.

To say that Poles were not heroes is more controversial. Certainly most of them were not - but on the other hand "Polish citizens have the highest amount of Righteous Among The Nations" (and that's also the highest per capita, too).

Weakness of Polish Secret State is again debatable. Sure, it was not strong enough to throw the Germans out, but it was probably the second largest resistance organization in Europe (after Yougoslavian YNLA I believe) and could carry out major actions like Warsaw Uprising or the entire Operation Tempest.

It is not true that Germans did not want a Polish collaborative government. Yes, I do believe around '39-40 (?), after Vichy was created, there was a minor Polish politician who approached Germans about the creation of a gov in Paris but was rebuked. I can't recall his name. How 'significant' he was (and who was the other) is a matter of debate, especially for when we can dig out their names. But see Kazimierz Bartel - Germans tried to create a Polish collaborative gov after Barbarossa, but failed. Not that either of this seems very relevant here.

Anon later states that the number of Poles who helped the Jews was equal to those who prayed on them. I would like to have some reference for this, because I do have a reference to the contrary: this has some specific mnumbers about the aftermath of the Ghetto Uprising: "The 27,000 Jews in hiding in Warsaw relied on about 50-60,000 people who provided hiding-places and another 20-30,000 who provided other forms of help; on the other hand, blackmailers, police agents, and other actively anti-Jewish elements numbered perhaps 2-3,000, each striking at two or three victims a month. The active helpers of Jews thus made up seven to nine per cent of the population of Warsaw; the Jews themselves, 2.7 per cent; the hunters, perhaps 0.3 per cent" That would indicate that for every "szmalcownik" we have 20 heroes.

Last but not least, AK did help in the Ghetto Uprising. From our article on the Ghetto Uprising: Polish units from Armia Krajowa (AK) and Gwardia Ludowa sporadically attacked German sentry units near the ghetto walls and attempted to smuggle weapons and ammunition inside. One Polish unit from AK, namely KB under the command of Henryk Iwański, even fought inside the Ghetto together with ŻZW and then retreated together to the Aryan side. The AK tried twice to blow up the Ghetto Wall, but without much success. I have now referenced this information to this.

--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

September 1939 crimes

The Germans murdered hundreds of Jews. Xx236 10:08, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

German 17th Infantry Division

Anon's request

I would appreciate some very solid evidence of this apparently rampant anti semitic attitude that has existed in Poland from prior to 1931. thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.215.243.84 (talk • contribs)

prewar population?

Wasn't the prewar population 3.3 million, not 3 million like it says in the article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.166.34.51 (talk) 21:11, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

Short introduction is needed

I doubt that an average reader understands the context. Even the name doesn't explain, it should be rather Holocaust in Germany occupied Poland.

In fact the current article is rather about Attitude of Poles toward Jews during Holocaust than about the holocaust itself. Xx236 17:28, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

tortured and beaten to death

The majority was burned in a barn.Xx236 (talk) 09:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

A few things to keep in mind

The dichotomy between 'Poles' and 'Jews' that this discussion has been relying on is a false one. Some Polish people before the war were Jewish. Most were not. The same was the case in Austria, Germany, etc. As well, some European Jews (like Scholem) were Zionists and identified very strongly with their religious roots; some (including Tuwim and Tarski) were not. Many (like Popper) were internationalists and had no time for nationalisms of any sort. All this is important to bear in mind because the notion that there were somehow two societies in Poland -- a homogenous, Catholic Gentile one and a distinct Jewish one -- is misleading. I had both Jewish and Catholic Poles in my extended family, as well as Armenians, Austrians and so forth. This was very typical in Galicia.

As well, contrary to what is said above, the Nazi occupation *was* brutal. One could be shot where one stood for whistling Chopin or singing a Polish song, for example. Remember that Poles were all slated for extermination so as to make room for the 'better' races. Because the German elites respected Dutch and French culture, nothing that happened in the West compares to the brutality that Poles (whether Jewish, Catholic, or Freethinker) had to endure. Things were clearly the worst for Jewish people. But everyone lived day-to-day, trying to survive. Many didn't make it.

One more thing: please don't let your dislike of modern day Polish conservatism and Catholicism or of Polish antisemitism (which is all reasonable enough) distort your view of history. Read about the Odessa massacre, just to pick a random example. Poles never did anything of that sort. There were no Polish SS battalions. You don't have to like Poles, but don't smear them. It's just not fair. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.44.175.209 (talk) 17:16, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

One million Polish collaborators in the Holocaust

I have revert such a claim. It is highly controversial and per WP:UNDUE as a fringe and controversial theory requires more reliable sources.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:15, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

It is reliably sourced, and it says "seven thousand to about one million". Boodlesthecat 19:17, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Which I expect is a misinterpretation of the original source. Thousands is a number I have seen often in many reliable scholarly estimates; a million - never. The publication you cite (Klaus-Peter Friedrich. Collaboration in a "Land without a Quisling": Patterns of Cooperation with the Nazi German Occupation Regime in Poland during World War II. Slavic Review, Vol. 64, No. 4, (Winter, 2005), pp. 711-746) likely mentions various brackets, but I find it dubious it would assign the same weight to estimates of several thousand and one million as you seem to imply.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

The direct quote from the article is "Estimates of the number of Polish collaborators vary from seven thousand to about one million. The refs he uses are 197. Lukas, Forgotten Holocaust, p. 117, and 198. Madajczyk, "'Teufelswerk,"' p. 146. If you have sources that dispute this, please share them. Boodlesthecat 19:50, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Update: I've read the article in question. First of all, the lowest estimate (p. 712) is "no collaboration" at all (old Polish historiography, biased but notable enough to be mentioned). Second, p. 715 offers a very useful definition of collaboration (he also comes back to that on p. 743) - note that Friedrich includes the German minority in Poland (who had Polish citizenship) among the "Polish collaborators" (people who claimed such ethnicity would become the Volksdeutsche). Are they Polish or German? Sure, we can claim now 3 millions of Polish collaborators - as long as we don't mention that those "Poles" were the ones who signed a piece of paper claiming they are ethnic Germans, and were supposed to sever any contact with the Polish subhumans... In 1939, before the German invasion, 800,000 people called themselves a German minority. During the war there were about 3 millions declared Volksdeutsche (p. 725). Of course, many of those were still Poles, with poor command of German language. 90% of Volks stayed in Poland after the WWII. Many - but not all - of them committed various crimes against Poles and Polish Jews; they were stigmatized after the war (p. 728), and in extreme cases deported to Germany... do we define them as Polish collaborators or not?

Friedrich notes on p. 715 page: "it is difficult to apply to Poland the concept of collaboration used for Western Europe"..."There was no basis for state collaboration.". Very notably, there is a big difference between collaborating with Nazi Holocaust and collaborating with the Germans (a difference which you seem to skip over in your one sentence short summary). Are we going to include, for example, 200,000 Polish bureaucrats (p. 716) that worked on the lower levels of General Government, for the most part not having anything to do with the Holocaust and just doing various mundane jobs? What about tens of thousands of Baudienst (Polish laborers, p. 720) who in 1939, under German command, restored the infrastructure destroyed in the war and who kept on working on similar tasks later (reaching 45,000 in 1944)? Yes, the Baudiensts built defense installations, dug up mass graves, some of them (although as an exception to the rule, p. 722) even helped round up Jews... but evading conscription and service was punishable by death. The Blue Police numbered 16,000 at its height (p. 722). They participated in rounding up Jews and other crimes, but they were not in command, had no autonomy, were common victim of assassinations by resistance, and even so - contained a high percentage of resistance symphatizers and undercover operatives. On p. 743 he notes that many government officials, policemen and others collaborated both with the Germans (obviously) but also supported the resistance. How do we define such "double collaborators"? On p. 716 and 717 he notes that the number of collaborators diminished in time (after German setbacks, and after people realized their true cruelty and intent).

On p. 744 he indeeds gives the brackets of Polish collaborators for 7,000 (Lukas, Forgotten Holocaust, p. 117) to 1 million (Madajczyk, Teufelswerk, p. 146). The question is, of course, what is their definition of collaborator. Friedrich himself several times stressed the importance of that definition, and the problem of blurry lines. In any case, I have no problem with restoring those estimates (With proper attribution - please look in the article and find out full bibliographical info for the Lukas and Madajczyk works), but in a proper place (stressing the million estimate in lead of various articles is not neutral!), and in proper big picture. For example. I have no problem with the numbers of people tried and executed by the underground courts. But to suggest as you did in your sentence that only 10,000 of the million of equally guilty Polish collaborators were tried is an obvious error.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Update. There is a good response to Friedrich here: John Connelly, Slavic Review, Vol. 64, No. 4 (Winter, 2005), pp. 771-781. Crucially, on. p. 778 I would like to draw your attention to the following quote: "The leading expert calls the phenomenon of collaboration marginal." Next, Connelly writes: "I do not believe that KPF valuable piece gives us reasons to abandon the existing views of Polish collaboration. His case study shows that only relatively small percentage of Polish population engaged in activities that may be described as collaboration when seen against the backdrop of European and world history."--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 02:46, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Belated reply (didn't see this until now). Connelly has a different view than Friedrich (who he cites as having made an "invaluable contribution" to the literature). However, our article is not quoting Friedrich's views, it is citing a range that Friedrich cites in his article. Nowhere does Connelly comment on or dispute this citation. And our article does not, as you claim, suggest "that only 10,000 of the million of equally guilty Polish collaborators were tried" because we cite a range of estimates given by Friedrich (6,000-1 million). We clearly do not say there were one million collaborators. It's clearly stated as the upper value of a range and clearly cited. It would be preferable, though, to make the estimate of collaborators and the figures of tried and executed seperate sentences for further clarity. Boodlesthecat 20:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem with us citing the number of million as the upper bracket, as long as we keep the equally well referenced qualifications from Connelly ("the phenomenon of collaboration marginal", "only relatively small percentage of Polish population engaged in activities that may be described as collaboration") which puts the numbers in perspective. Further, I still insist that we should do a survey of other sources and determine what's the most popular 'average' estimate.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem adding additional reliable sources that put forth other estimates, I was clearly objecting to outright removal of the figures given by Friedrich. I doubt if we will find a "most popular 'average' estimate", and probably will have to cite a few reliable sources and their estimates. Boodlesthecat 18:05, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

That's fine. Are we ready to unprotect the article? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Flame war or what?

Naturally, I have reverted the mind-boggling blanket revert as of 04:26, 31 July 2008 by Malik Shabazz with his puzzling explanation as follows: "Undid revision 228933025 by Poeticbent. Lukas was already being cited as a lowball figure; also, see WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE)

Please keep your cool Malik Shabazz. If you have a beef against Lukas than give me something to read. Otherwise the actual data comes from the best possible and widely respected source which is the Israeli War Crimes Commission? There's nothing "fringe" or "undue" about that. --Poeticbent talk 17:40, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Please keep your own counsel, assume good faith, and stop referring to other editors' changes as "mind-boggling" and a "flame war". You're making an obvious attempt to pass off Lukas's research — which he acknowledges is outside the mainstream (i.e., fringe) — as if it were gospel truth.

Lukas was already cited, together with other reliable sources — which you deleted. I'm sorry, but you can't throw aside the sources whose numbers you don't like in order to advance your POV. — ] (] · ]) 18:35, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I have no objection to acknowledging those Poles who aided Jews during the Holocaust if this means adding notable views from reliable sources. But we should not delete material on Polish colaboration with Nazis when it occured. Also, when there is a range of estimates we should provide the range and not pick one particular estimate. Commissions, courts, and professional historians all use a variety of methods for reconstructing events from the mass of data and in this situation there are a number of notable estimates, not one authoritative view. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:35, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry but these now twice repeated blanket reverts of data originating from the Israeli War Crimes Commission coupled with your fantastic claims and mysterious sources that cannot be confirmed online (refered to as "reliable") are all a clear indication of your joint unwillingness to foster the quality of information expected of Misplaced Pages. There's nothing more I can say. --Poeticbent talk 20:02, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

What is so "fantastic" or "mysterious" about this source:

Klaus-Peter Friedrich. Collaboration in a "Land without a Quisling": Patterns of Cooperation with the Nazi German Occupation Regime in Poland during World War II. Slavic Review, Vol. 64, No. 4, (Winter, 2005), pp. 711-746. Friedrich cites Richard C. Lukas, Forgotten Holocaust: The Poles Under German Occupation 1939-1944 for the lower figure and Czeslaw Madajczyk, "'Teufelswerk': Die nationalsozialistische Besatzungspolitik in Polen," in Eva Rommerskirchen, ed., Deutsche und Polen 1945-1995: Anndherungen-Zbliienia (Diisseldorf, 1996) for the one million figure.

As I wrote, it cites Lukas as the low end of a range of estimates.

Every reliable source doesn't have to be accessible by Google. Anybody with access to a good university library or a subscription to JSTOR can find the article. — ] (] · ]) 20:33, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Does the author write about ethnic Poles or all Polish citizens regardles of ethnic background ? --Molobo (talk) 22:18, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

The author uses the same phrase used in the article, "Polish collaborators". — ] (] · ]) 22:23, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

So he doesn't specify it means all Polish citizens regardless of ethnic background or just ethnic Poles ? --Molobo (talk) 22:25, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

• Shall we invite Mr Ernst Zundel to settle our differences or are you already overlooking our discussion sir? And, how many millions of collaborators would you like us to get through around here, sir? Just one? I think number three has a better ring to it. And, how about the so called biblical seven? I think seven million sounds best. What do you say? --Poeticbent talk 16:45, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Poeticbent, please make an effort to follow the Misplaced Pages Talk page guidelines and use this page for discussing improvements to the article. Using the talk page to post hostile rants containing aggressive and offensive ethnic-based innuendo is a destructive, rather than constructive approach to fostering cooperative editing. Thank you. Boodlesthecat 02:21, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

You want to discuss improvements to this article? Than tell me please, why weren’t you the first to notice that there’s something terribly wrong with these numbers restricted from public access and never again mentioned by any respectable formal authority on the subject. Instead, you engaged in your usual edit warring. But, regardless of the nature of your inquiry, these preposterous claims from JSTOR are deplorable even for a layman like myself. – If there were one million collaborators in a country of around twenty million, one collaborator for every twenty citizens of Poland: men, women and children, than who were they for goodness' sake? Klingon, Ferengi, Romulan, or maybe Species 8472? There must have been at least one in every extended Polish or Jewish family (from Warsaw to Szczebrzeszyn), one in every dugout, one in every attic, one in every AK unit, ten of them in Dr Korczak’s orphanage (statistically speaking). What an amazing NSDAP paradise. Did they all speak German on top of their mother tongue? Or, perhaps squeal silently by pointing fingers at each other under the cover of darkness? – Let's be serious. The only estimate fit to be used in this article is the one originating from the Israeli War Crimes Commission; or, let's not mention any numbers at all in the name of peace. --Poeticbent talk 17:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

These "preposterous claims from JSTOR" from not from JSTOR, they are from a reliable source carried by JSTOR. I assume that when you read something you disagree with in a book, you do not hold your local bookdealer responsible. In any case, if you have reliable sources to add that dispute or add additional context, background or other useful information, please feel free to add it. But disputing a reliable source simply because you don't like it is not enough. Boodlesthecat 17:46, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Information is lacking in the article

The article lacks info on Jewish patricipation and collaboration:

• Group 13
• Żagiew
• Abraham_Gancwajch
• Jewish_Police_(Holocaust)

--Molobo (talk) 22:23, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Wrong timing to protect the article

Wrong timing, because the source shoudn't be included into the Misplaced Pages historical article in the first time and then protected yet. Such sources are most reliable when coming from the original records - in this case from German records which are known to be most detailed and precise going back centuries ago - especially, if someone wants to establish how many collaborators were active during WWII Poland. It's beside me why the so called German historian - Klaus-Peter Friedrich - who has obviously an easy access to the Berlin Hall of Records, has neglected this and estimated his number on communist press. We don't have access to the supplied reference but we have access to his other findings also concerning the Holocaust in Poland, just see here to get an idea on which sources this guy depends. Besides, such a divergence in estimating the correct number of collaborators - three magnitudes higher than found by more scholarly sources sounds exactly as it is: an original research by someone looking for holes where there are none. It's like trying to prove the Holocaust never happened supplying the notable sources from say Iran, just in reverse. Or like someone tried to prove there were between 20 and 20 million acknowledged American spies in the USSR 1950's only, the research based on CIA files (lower number) and on Lyublyanka interrogation transcripts (higher number). greg park avenue (talk) 15:20, 1 August 2008 (UTC) Do you want us to read the original article? It's included in a C.E.O.L. database, so a hint would be useful how to get there. The article is about the Communist propaganda rather than about the Holocaust, so I don't understand your comment. The author publishes in Jewish Quaterly in Poland, so he seems to be a historian. Xx236 (talk) 13:34, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

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