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LGBTQ+ studies Template‑class

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Template:Multidel

Zoophilia's separate listing

Zoophilia is linked to directly on this template, beside paraphilia. Yet the paraphilia article includes mention of zoophilia as a paraphilia:

Under Paraphilia NOS, the DSM mentions.. zoophilia (animals)

Why does it receive this distinction when other paraphilias are not directly linked to? Shouldn't it be removed, or if not, the other prominent paraphilias also linked to directly? The implication here is that zoophilia, referenced as a paraphilia, is included within 'sexual orientation'. This is a contested idea, similar to pedophilia, another paraphilia, also being contested as being viewed as an orientation. To conclude positively on this association in regard to one paraphilia and not another is probably a bit of a bias in the presentation, even if an unintended one. Tyciol (talk) 06:41, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Zoophilia's involves animals, which paraphilia does not, generally, denounce. paraphilia is generally connected with objects, non-living.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 06:46, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I do not understand your use of the word "denounce." This seems like a simple question of V: does DSM IV list zoophilia as a form of paraphilia, or doesn't it? Slrubenstein | Talk 20:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Sexuality vs sexual

The sexual orientations on this list end in sexuality rather than sexual. Is that right? For example, I would say a gay person had a homosexual orientation, not a homosexuality orientation. If I understand right, sexuality includes more than just a sexual orientation, but also sexual behavior. This causes problems when writing the different articles. For example, on the homosexuality page, the intro reads "Homosexuality refers to sexual behavior with or attraction to people of the same sex, or to a sexual orientation." Wouldn't it be clearer just to have pages and links to sexual orientations, not sexualities? Joshuajohanson (talk) 00:33, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Therefore, I purpose to list the various sexual orientations as heterosexual, homosexual and bisexual instead of a heterosexuality, homosexuality and bisexuality orientation. If no one objects, I'll go ahead and make those changes. Joshuajohanson (talk) 01:06, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

No objection here, either one works for me. --User0529 (talk) 01:21, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

template POV problems

ResolvedThese terms are scene as a vital part on the field of sexuality and orientation, personal dislike of these terms has no ground for the removal of these affiliated articles. --Cooljuno411 (talk) 16:39, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

This template includes a number of unusual terms that only a few writers argue are "orientations" while most psychologists would class them as paraphilias, and the common-usage understanding of "orientation" refers only to gender of attraction. Since you've done this for some terms, it's also POV to exclude certain other paraphilias that their advocates argue are really "orientations." In general, the prominent place the template has in high-traffic articles like homosexuality gives undue weight to fringe ideas.

And it's completely silly to have the joke term "pomosexual" on there.

The fix I propose is to list only those orientations widely accepted as being orientations in common usage -- heterosexuality, homosexuality, and bisexuality. A general link to sexual orientation and paraphilia can then direct readers to a discussion of various ways orientation is defined by various writers, and whether more unusual terms ought also to be considered under this category.

Dybryd (talk) 18:33, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Good work on cleaning it up... though who knows how long before the zoosexuality people want to reclaim their status lol. I tightened up the formatting some and replaced the Homosexuality and transgender item (since it only related to homosexual orientation) with Third sex and Two-spirit (under the non-westernized concepts section) and Transgender under see also. --User0529 (talk) 00:51, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Reverting, your case is not logical and based on personal opinion. Sexual orientation is a personal choice, not what some doctor says, you have no right to say what is a sexual orientation or not. I changed it from "Classifications" to "Sexual orientation identities" so all terms can fit snug in this category without any conflict.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 23:15, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think Misplaced Pages can meaningfully define anything according to personal choice -- we must use the published consensus. Dybryd (talk) 15:59, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

As the content is disputed, I think explicit sourcing may be a good idea. However, are references normally put in a template? It seems unsightly. Could they be added invisibly, commented out -- is that legit? Dybryd (talk) 16:35, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

If what to call the first section is going to be that much of a debate, we could just remove the heading for it, or <!-- --> comment it out. (Personally I can see both sides of the debate, as it is an identity that a person self-identifies as, and it also is used as a classification that some people project onto others (example: List of LGBT people categorizing ancient peoples as homosexual or bisexual when such classifications did not exist before the 19th century CE) User0529 (talk) 17:28, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

There is already a Template:Sexual identities which is quite good, and more like the all-inclusive list that Cooljuno411 seems to be looking for.

Whether to define a given form of sex as an "orientation" is a highly contentious question in some cases, one that advocates on each side have strong contrary opinions about. That being the case, it's still more important to stick close to academic consensus to avoid "taking a side" in these debates.

However, it's true that I gave no source for reducing the list of orientations to the "big three" and there really ought to be one, given that the question is controversial. But as I said -- I don't know how to give sources in a template. Any advice on this?

Dybryd (talk) 18:08, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I dunno, methinks it might be overkill to put citations in a navigation template though. You could <!-- include a hidden citation for future editors to discourage additions--> maybe. ?? I think asexual has place in the list, but the others (zoosexuality, autosexuality) seem more questionable User0529 (talk) 18:16, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, our own opinions about what has a place shouldn't matter. However, I've read a bit about asexuality, and many people who identify as asexual also identify as gay, straight, or bi -- they just seek purely affectionate rather than sexual relationships with the gender(s) they desire. Others may consider it an orientation -- I haven't read enough to know. But, again, it's academic consensus we have to go by.

I asked about this at the Help desk, and the reply was that sourcing for templates is usually just done by referring to the sources of the articles included in the template, rather than being explicitly included in the template in any way.

Dybryd (talk) 18:32, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Sources and Citations can go on the talk page, but do not belong in the template. What is the main audience for this template? Trying to make a template fot for all things will cause problems. Is it for science, biology and includes other animals than humans? Or is it primarily for human anthropology, sexuality or sociology? The list has included asexuality for some time without issues, why is there an impetus to change that now? On the other hand, pomosexuality doesn;t seem to have any support for inclusion beyound the person who put it there. If you asked the average girl on the street, she would probably list homsexuality, bisexuality and heterosexuality. I would bet not one in a hundred would list zoosexuality, autosexuality or pomosexuality as a sexual orientation. Probably only some small percentage would list asexuality. Why not consider making the list realistic and pragmatic, rather than inclusive of all terms that could possibly be considered as a form of sexual orientation. I suggest keeping it simple with the big three, and possibly asexuality. Atom (talk) 18:42, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

The article asexuality says it is "considered by some to be an orientation" and gives a link to a magazine article which describes the personal feeling of some asexuals that asexuality is their orientation. No more academic background is given.

I won't kick and scream if the consensus is to include it, but I'd really like to find a neutral, authoritative list. There are many forms of sex that their advocates like to describe as an "orientation" as a politically legitimizing strategy.

Dybryd (talk) 18:51, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

The big three (with or without Asexuality) would seem to be neutral for me. I think asexuality has more place in the template than the other non-big-3-classifications (such as auto- and zoo-), but like Dybryd, I won't kick or scream over its inclusion (or lack thereof). User0529 (talk) 19:06, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I see you've removed paraphilia. I'm actually the one who inserted that -- I did it because for many of these specific cases of unusual forms of sex that some want to call orientations (like zoosexuality), others want to call them paraphilias. Basically, an ideological conflict between the wish to legitimize and the wish to pathologize. So I think paraphilia is perfect to go under "alternative concepts" because it's a different way of conceptualizing some of the same things. Dybryd (talk) 19:34, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I do think asexuality should be included. I'm not sure it's a good idea to have removed the template from all the pages, esp. the "big three", while discuss this. Aleta 19:38, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I did so hoping it would draw the editors of the relevant articles to the discussion. And, in general, I'm strongly in favor of getting disputed content out of article space until the dispute is resolved. Better to be temporarily skimpy on content than to have mistakes or bias turning up in the search results of folks innocently doing research. Dybryd (talk) 19:51, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Reverted Paraphilia back into See also: under the orientations. I agree w/ your reasoning, just was trying to thin out the miscelaneous some. Problem with putting paraphilia with the other alt concepts is they are all gender-based constructs (Non-westernized male.. refers to male sexuality within gender-based societies of the non-west, Third sex is what transgender and effeminate (female-gendered) homosexuals are called in some places like India, etc) User0529 (talk) 19:56, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

readded pomosexual to "see also", hello it is a RELATED TOPIC, hence in the SEE ALSO--Cooljuno411 (talk) 23:47, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

To me, it comes down to verifiablity. Zoosexuality, autosexuality, and paraphiliac identities would be wholly appropriate on a template for sexual identities (ie. Template:Sexual identities), but I don't think there are any reputable sources citing an "is a" relationship between zoosexuality and sexual orientation. Likewise, I think a "see also: paraphilia" is inappropriate. This suggests a linkage with sexual orientation that is both inaccurate and unverifiable. Queerudite (talk) 06:14, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

This isn't about being unverifiable or anything to do with that, this is about "orientation identities", whether or not it is a mental paraphilia or not, it is an identifiable sexual orientation that one classifies themselves as. --Cooljuno411 (talk) 06:54, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Cooljuno, it sounds like your argument is essentially that zoosexuality is a sexual orientation because zoosexuals themselves identify zoosexuality as a sexual orientation. I don't dispute the validity of that argument, I dispute the verifiability of that argument. Are there any reputable sources stating that zoosexuals commonly identify themselves as having a sexual orientation of "zoosexual"? If there aren't verifiable sources, then it should be removed as per WP:Verify. Queerudite (talk) 13:23, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Queerudite, are you in favor of expanding the template to a list of all forms of sex which some people self-identify as their "orientation"? I think that would be awful (NPOV, UNDUE, etc.), but if it were done it would have to be done comprehensively, not just with the couple of terms that were in the template in its previous form). Dybryd (talk) 19:51, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

(As I mentioned above, the criteria of self-identification for inclusion seems more appropriate for the existing template Template:Sexual identities, which already has a much longer list). Dybryd (talk) 19:53, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Reverting, there is lovely references and great detail on the Zoosexuality article, feel free to take a look at that for info and references.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 08:58, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Hmmmm, that's interesting. I didn't realize there has been a research study supporting zoosexuality as an orientation. I was surprised too that there doesn't appear to be any academic resistance to the application of the term to zoosexuals (in contrast, to say, the resistance to deeming pedophilia as a sexual orientation). I am still a little concerned that (1) Zoosexuality and autosexuality don't fall under the commonplace understanding of "sexual orientation". That is, "sexual orientation" is generally understood to mean a gender preference as opposed to an animal/human preference. (2) That the sexual orientation template is going become a duplication of Template:Paraphilia, except with homo/hetero/bi/etc-sexuality added. I agree with Dybryd that such a "comprehensive" approach would be excessive. What do other people think? Queerudite (talk) 07:01, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

just 3rd-opinioning here... paraphilia generally refers to some sexual behavior that is (considered to be) destructive to the self or others. Zoophilia is not destructive in the same sense as something like pedophilia, and so I can see why it would be seen as an identity and not necessarily a paraphilia. however, I don't think zoophilia counts as an orientation for the simple reason that (as an identity) it doesn't tell whether a zoophile is attracted to male or female animals (or both...). thus there could be 'gay' zoophiles, 'straight' zoophiles, 'bi' zoophiles... Orientation is too deeply connected to the same-gender/other-gender distinction. IMO, the template should include the following: Bisexual, Heterosexual, Homosexual, maybe Pansexual (to the extent that it's different from bisexuality), but not Asexual, Autosexual or Zoosexual (which are sexual behaviors or identities more than orientations), or Pomosexual (which is an intellectualization of bi- or pansexuality, not a separate orientation). --Ludwigs2 20:33, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

What input there has been on this has generally supported the changes I originally made. I'm going to remake those parts of the changes that have received support. Although not that many have commented, consensus among those who have about removal of the neologisms seems pretty clear -- except from Cooljuno411.

I'm hoping that rather than simple reversion, he'll make an effort to get his point of view across on the talk page first.

Dybryd (talk) 03:25, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Reverted, opinions are great but we can't let them get in the way of orderly and informational process, regardless of your opinion on paraphilia or pomosexuality, they are a vital and related topics to sexuality. And the neologism argument for removal is being used incorrectly, the term ] and pomosexuality are well document and written on subjects. Using this incorrect neologism argument would be just the same as arguing the deletion of an article of a newly discovered disease with the same bases of the name being a new term. --Cooljuno411 (talk) 16:35, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Cooljuno - while these topics are certainly "vital and related topics to sexuality" they are not vital and related to sexual orientation. let me try a compromise edit, though... --Ludwigs2 16:55, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Like compromise edit , rearranged into a more organized fashion.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 18:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

errr... so liking compromise edit means revert to your preferred version, except for one word? Cooljuno, if you want to be hard-core, at least don't be disingenuous about it. I'm going to revert back now (just to make the point), and then we can discuss the matter properly. or you can revert again and try to turn it into an edit war; your choice. --Ludwigs2 18:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Your organization is all off, you basically through many terms that are organizable into an "other" category. You made a "compromise", aka an edit you did without input from others and slapped a "compromise" on it, well i took the terms you used from your "compromise" and organized it into something better then an "other" category. I feel that you have a bias towards such terms as "pomosexual" and "zoosexual" and you have a motive to not place your preferred traditional labels, like heterosexual or homosexual, together with these "other" sexual orientation identities. And i would love to hear why these sexual orientation identities deserve not to be in the same category, cause the only thing i really noticed was this whole "neologism" thing, not a reason why it should be separated, so before YOU go making edits without consulting or to make a "comprise", consider using the talk page. Now until you actually make a reasonable argument why these terms can't be in the same category, i am reverting back. Sorry to break it to you, but it's the 21st century, times are changing.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 18:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Cooljuno - I'm sorry, but you keep confusing sexual orientation with sexual identity. the conventional definitions of these terms mark orientation as a same-gender/different-gender issue. sexual identity is a different term having to do with self-perception around sexual issues. creating a new category called 'sexual orientation identities' is an interesting move, and not one I would necessarily object to, but it's original research since that category doesn't (to my knowledge) exist anywhere in the extensive academic literature on the topic. give some citations that show that term being used, and we can talk further, otherwise we need to stay within the categories handed us.

, bellow i mention the possibility of "sexual preference and orientation" as well.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 20:06, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

unfortunatley, it seems clear to me from this article that Mohr and Fassbinger are not creating a new term 'sexual orientation identity', but rather examining the collective sexual identity of couples. orientation comes in as one of the factors of compatbility. I suspect the article was originally titled 'Sexual Orientation, Identity, and Romantic Relationship Quality in Same-Sex Couples' but that the commas got dropped in press. do you have any more evidence that this is a real term in the field of research? and what precisely does the term stand for (separate from sexual identity and sexual orientation)? --Ludwigs2 05:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I said we can use other terms. But i don't know why your the one putting me on the spot, you are the one changing the context of the template, not me. And you have yet to give me a reason why pomosexual and zoosexuality are separate from heterosexual. --Cooljuno411 (talk) 08:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC). NOPE, never mind, read the sexual orientation article, it says "Sexual orientation refers to "an enduring emotional, romantic, sexual, OR affectional attraction toward others."" Does that say only human partners, no, does it say it has to be a sexual attraction, no. You grouped all these "other sexual identity" into an exclusively sexual context, well sorry they are just like any other sexual orientations that include "an enduring emotional, romantic, sexual, or affectionate attraction toward others". I am reverting back, you have not proved why your new addition should be kept, do not revert until you can prove your point of why they should be separate.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 09:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Cooljuno411 - you're edit-warring; stop it. there is a reasonable consensus for the other version - you need to convince us by talking about it, not by constantly imposing your version on the page.

wikipedia is not a valid secondary source (see wp:PRIMARY), and so it can not be used for establishing new terminology. even if we accepted the sexual orientation page, however, please note that it also says "The most common forms exists along a continuum that ranges from exclusive heterosexuality (being sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex) to exclusive homosexuality (being sexually attracted to members of the same sex) and includes various forms of bisexuality (being sexually attracted to members of either sex)." note that that's a gender preference dimension, nothing more. why are you so insistant on pushing the limits on this template? --Ludwigs2 19:08, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

(1) Your the one imposing your edit, an you are the one changing a status quo, and YOU have not provided evidence these terms aren't orientation. And maybe you need to look up a word in the dictionary... because i don't see anywhere in your definition '"The most common forms exists along a continuum ...." i don't see a requirement for a male or female attraction. (2) And if you don't like the word "sexual orientation identities", i will drop the word "identity". And like i said, you have yet to prove a point, i have. I have given you definitions of sexual orientation, i have given you reasons why they are sexual orientations and the you keep arguing about this word "identity".... ok fine, i'll drop "identity", but you have yet to prove to me why these terms aren't "an enduring emotional, romantic, sexual, OR affectional attraction toward others.", aka, a sexual orientation.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 19:56, 23 July 2008 (UTC) I separated the terms into "hetero-homo continuum" and "non hetero-homo continuum" to help distinguish them.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 20:20, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Cooljuno - I keep restoring the edit that a number of different editors here prefer. so far as I can tell, you are the only editor pushing the inclusion of these other elements as orientations. it that's incorrect, would another editor please help Juno out here?

with respect to your "you have yet to prove to me why these terms aren't "an enduring emotional, romantic, sexual, OR affectional attraction toward others", aka, a sexual orientation. - I didn't say anything about these not being enduring emotional, romantic, sexual, or affectional attraction toward others; I said that this is not the normal, established, cultural or academic understanding of 'sexual orientation'. please see the APA's understanding of sexual orientation, which deals only with the (in-species) continuum from homosexual to heterosexual. there are plenty of places on wikipedia for you to advocate for different sexual identities while staying within Misplaced Pages policy - however, trying to change the established meaning of 'sexual orientation' is original research, and just doesn't belong on this page.

I've left a warning on your talk page about edit-warring. --Ludwigs2 20:52, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I recognize this is important to you, but please keep in mind that wikipedia can't go off into uncharted territory. --Ludwigs2 19:53, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Well good think we aren't, these terms weren't published by a 13 year old after school one day, people who specialize in these fields wrote about it, try looking at the articles if you need more information.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 20:06, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I think an RFC is the appropriate next step. I can't help but notice that Cooljuno411 has been blocked for revert-warring on this template before.

Dybryd (talk) 18:23, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

if that's what you choose - this isn't really my page. hopefully he'll be willing to discuss the matter fairly though. --Ludwigs2 18:33, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

The use of "continuum" for orientation

I don't support the use of the word "continuum" in the template. The idea that sexual orientation is a continuum is a particular POV, one with notable supporters, but also detractors. I don't think it's appropriate for the template to take a side on this question.

Dybryd (talk) 20:37, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

"The most common forms exists along a continuum that ranges from exclusive heterosexuality (being sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex) to exclusive homosexuality (being sexually attracted to members of the same sex) and includes various forms of bisexuality (being sexually attracted to members of either sex).", that is a quote from the sexual orientation article, it as well has a reference on the page, feel free to look at it. When i added the this term, i want to add a small side note saying something like "continuum that ranges from exclusive heterosexuality to exclusive homosexuality and includes various forms of bisexuality" but would look unattractive on the template, maybe you can try fitting it in, in a way that looks good.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 20:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. It's as much a problem to have this POV directly endorsed in the article as in the template. Dybryd (talk) 21:02, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

continuum : a set of elements such that between any two of them there is a third element. Hetero and homo are the two sets elements with bisexual as the third inbetween, don't see the issue, correlates directly with the definition. Please tell what you recommend as a alternative.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 21:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC) As well, if you search Continuum, anything that goes through a gradual transition from one condition, to a different condition, without any abrupt changes....--Cooljuno411 (talk) 21:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I added a footnote that gives the definition of the hetero-homo continuum.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 21:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

RfC: are "zoosexuality," "autosexuality," and "pomosexuality" orientations?

Template:RFCsoc

There has been disagreement on whether the terms "zoosexuality" , "autosexuality" and "pomosexuality" should be listed on the template as sexual orientations.

Previous discussion is in the section Template_talk:Sexual_orientation#template_POV_problems above.

Input is also welcome on improving the template in general.

Dybryd (talk) 18:45, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I recommend we group them together under "sexual preference and orientation", if you don't have a problem with this, i wil go ahead and change it. But i am still waiting for the reason you made that "other" category, you have nost justified that edit, which you called a "compromise" without getting anyones input.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 19:43, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

The inclusion of "zoosexuality" makes my head want to split apart. There are significant political impacts to equating zoophilia with other sexual orientations. I have an apparent lack of opinion about autosexuality (which sounds more like narcissistic personality disorder) or pomosexuality. --Moni3 (talk) 20:29, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for commenting. What do you think the standard for inclusion ought to be? Some possibilities include:

1. some people self-identify this as an orientation (asexuality)
2. an academic paper has argued that this is an orientation (zoosexuality)
3. it is a focus of the main sexual orientation article (hetero-, homo-, bi-)
4. it is listed as an orientation in a mainstream, authoritative work such as an APA publication (I don't know that anyone has found such a thing, though I would like to)
5. is is an attraction between sentient and consenting human adults (Moni3's suggestion)
6. it is experienced as an inescapable attraction (Dev920's suggestion)
7. ...?

Dybryd (talk) 20:35, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I read what there was in the zoosexuality article. The article isn't in too good a shape, so I can't say if that's the total of what has given cause for it to be included with heterosexuality, homosexuality, and bisexuality, but if the APA still considers it a relatively harmless neurosis, then no. It is not on par with these other widely accepted sexual orientations. I think we need to focus on sexual orientations that include attractions between sentient and consenting human adults. --Moni3 (talk) 20:42, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I would not include autosexual, because I can't see it as an orientation, which to me implies outward attractions. Zoosexual yes, I have read a significant amount of zoophile testimony and they do seem inescapably attracted to animals, so it does seem to me a valid orientation. Pomosexual I would not include because it's a label for people...who...reject ...labels...and my brain hurts. It's a political term which fails to describe anyone's orientation at all, only their attitude towards having it described. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 20:59, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay. Would you argue for a general standard of inclusion that says "If it's an inescapable attraction, then it's an orientation"? Could we dig up a source for this standard? Dybryd (talk) 21:07, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Pomosexual is in itself a sexual orientation, defined as an enduring emotional, romantic, sexual, or affectionate attraction toward others, but refuses to classify ones self with sexual orientation rules, identities, and labels.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 21:12, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Chaps, you opened a request for comments. I have made a comment. No need to be coming at me from both sides, I'm just putting forward my immediate reaction to the question put forth. Yes, I would say your summary, Dybryd, is accurate, but it's just a rule of thumb. Your argument Cooljuno that pomosexual is a valid sexual orientation because pomosexuals are attracted to...something... doesn't really hold up unless that something is defined. Otherwise its not an orientation, it's a label for people who don't want to use them. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 00:17, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to come across as brusque. But -- since the question has become controversial, I think we really need criteria we can source. Dybryd (talk) 02:37, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Pomosexuality's a political activist statement, not an actual orientation; reality is that's like calling yourself a martian but being born in The Bronx. You can say whatever you want, but you are a New Yorker. That one definitely has no place in a template about sexual orientations. Zoosexuality's a POV push in and of itself by people seeking to validate banging sheep, and a 'paraphilia', and Autosexuality sounds like excess Narcissism, listed as a mental disease in the DSM-IV, and thus another 'paraphilia'. As such, none of them ought to be listed in the main template for Sexual orientation, but can be found by reading up on the main links. ThuranX (talk) 00:49, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

So there is no such thing as a pesron who does't calssify their sexual motive.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 06:29, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

There is such a person, but they have a sexual motive. Therefore they have a label that can be applied. Refusing to apply one is a political statement, not an orientation. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 21:59, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

No, the terms "zoosexuality" , "autosexuality" and "pomosexuality" should not be listed on the template as sexual orientations. Let's not be ridiculous, please. Certain followers of these "orientations" may be flattered to have them listed, but that is definitely not a good reason for doing so. Conventional usage is to restrict sexual orientation to hetero/homo/and bisexuality, and it's best to stick with it. Skoojal (talk) 06:24, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

You did even say why, you just said no.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 06:28, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I said that it was ridiculous. That's a good enough reason. Aside from that, it has no basis in science. The 'non hetero-homo continuum' part should be removed from the template. Skoojal (talk) 06:33, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

We removing something because you think it's silly is against Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. And feel free to read up on continuum, .--Cooljuno411 (talk) 08:40, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

The only relevant question is whether 'Zoophilia' and so forth are recognized as sexual orientations by scientists. And the answer is no, they are not (or at least no one has presented evidence to show that they are). Thus this content does not belong in the template. Skoojal (talk) 23:31, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, if you read the zoosexuality article, it appears that a reasonable volume of literature has been produced which references the term. You know, everyone needs to read this article, everyone who does seems to be learning a lot of new things from it. :) Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:41, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that article is pretty good -- in some ways it does a better job of defining sexual orientation than sexual orientation. However, "used by scientists" is not the same as being in consensus scientific usage -- there are many debates within psychology on precisely this question, which have partisans on both sides. Although I don't want to exclude anything out of hand, it's also not NPOV to blindly list every scientist's perspective as if being published in a journal made it authoritative consensus -- scientific journals are often the scene of heated debate!

Dybryd (talk) 00:07, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

• Comment. Apologies for being overburdened enough not to be able to invest time in this but... please, please, please can we clean up the use of references and other html mark-up? I'm trying to save non-heterosexuals and it's adding this weird reference with its own wiktionary definition link and formatting. I feel that should go n the most logical article instead of every article the template is used on. I suppose an alternative would be to just remove the template from the article but that's a less-than ideal solution. Banjeboi 10:11, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

If we're going to leave the second group in, I would like to propose moving "pansexuality" to the top group, as it deals with gender, like homo-/bi-/heterosexuality. --Alynna (talk) 10:36, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• Comment I think there are two issues here. First, sexual orientation is not necessarily the same thing as sexual identity. Sexual orientation is specifically in reference to an object (which could be a living being); sexual identities may and perhaps typically are based on sexual orientation (that is certainly what a Freudian would claim) but this need not be the case. The second issue is ompliance with our verifiability policy. There may be individuals who experience their bodies as uniquely their own. But language is not - it is social, and the meanings of words depend on how they are used. We all know dictionaries are generally unhelpful when talking about topics that are matters of a great deal of academic research (such research generally shows complexities that dictionaries are unconcerned with). My only problem with the template is that it may give too much weight to DSM-IV. I do consider this a reliable source. But it is not the only one, since anthropologists and sociologists as well as historians have studied sexual orientation as well. Work by these other scholars would also constitute reliable sources. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:17, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
• Comment I think that just having hetero, homo, and bisexual is not enough. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia it exist to inform people of things that they don't know already. Hetero homo and bi are well known. Zoosexual, autosexual, etc are orientations just like the others. For that reason we should include all the possible orientations one can have. I think that the articles on androphilia and gynephilia should be included for completeness (many transwomen and transmen prefere that their orientations be refered to in that way. Don't belive me look at the articles linked to homosexual transsexual.) I also think that including citations in a template is a little much. --Hfarmer (talk) 23:34, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment Because there isn't enough science to know what the most valid definition should be, multiple reasonable ones have emerged, with no way to distinguish among them. There are reasonable definitions of "sexual orientation" that are restricted to erotic interest in male versus female (i.e., the sex in "sexual orientation" refers to which sex you are into); and there are reasonable definitions of "sexual orientation" that are broad (i.e., the sex in "sexual orientation" refers to how and with whom you like to have sex). They refer to different senses of the word sex. In the former and far more common use, zoophilia, autosexuality, and pomosexuality are out. In the latter, zoophilia and autosexuality (and the other paraphilias) would be in.

As for "pomosexuality," I am aware of no evidence to suggest that it is a valid reflection of sexual interest at all and not merely a reflection of one's sociopolitical oppositional defiance.

Let me suggest that the template use a dictionary-like format that acknowledges the frequency of the various uses. For example, it might read: Most common use (heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual); Less common use or technical (paraphilia, androphilia, gynephilia, asexual); Controversial (pomosexual, pansexual)

Using "levels" in the headings allows the broadening that Hfarmer (correctly, IMO) sought, without putting undue weight on the fringe or debatable ones, which folks don't appear to want to have on the same "level." Using "paraphilia" captures the full range of sexual interests without having to choose among zoophilia, autosexuality, and the other many paraphilias. (In fact, it might be a good idea to include list of paraphilias as a link; I've been working on it on-and-off lately.)

— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 00:31, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, James, that's exactly why I added paraphilia to the template as part of my original changes. Although many paraphilias are asserted to be orientations by their advocates, there are simply so many that it would be very unwieldy to list them all (and how unfair to the necrophiles if we include zoophilia while excluding them!)

I think a link to list of paraphilias is a much better choice than picking one or two paraphilias to arbitrarily "promote" as orientations.

Dybryd (talk) 01:00, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I think the definition of sexual orientation is more a matter of convention than anything else. My point was that we should follow the most common scientific convention. I'm personally not aware of any definition of sexual orientation that includes the specific details of exactly how one wants to sex, as opposed to the gender of the people with whom one wants to have sex. However, James's suggestion seems like a good one (although I am surprised to see that paraphilias would be deemed 'sexual orientations'). Skoojal (talk) 04:31, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment:

The 'paraphilias' are simply fluxional (in time and place), socio-political constructs. No wonder you are having some trouble. If necrophilia was found to cure cancer, tomorrow, millions would become necrophiles, tomorrow.

The issue is simple. One is sexually-aroused by something or one is not (thus, there is some orientation or there is not. There will then be degrees of orientation, to a number of things, for each person ... imagine a multi-dimensional version of Kinsey's Scale). It is also important to note that Kinsey was referring to sexual activity, not fantasy.

It is all part of our rich and textured neurological tapestry, which allows us to create great art, music, architecture, science etc and, yes, destroy the environment etc. Some of our 'Greatest Giants' had 'DSM conditions'.

I often describe us as 'cavemen with f**cked-up brains' - that is *all* of us. You are counting the number of angels on the pin head, I am afraid.

Yours,

Nigel.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr Nigel Leigh Oldfield (talk • contribs) 16:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• Nigel is incorrect: Kinsey's ratings were a combination of behavior, fantasy, and identity. Modern sex researchers rate each of those characteristics independently. Kinsey never indicated how he arrived at his final ratings from what the study subjects said.
• Show me someone who believes the issue is simple, and I will show you someone who does not understand the issue.

— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 16:57, 28 July 2008 (UTC

Comment:

Dear Dr Cantor,

I can find you the source that it was based on sexual activity, if you wish. I cannot, of course, account for its veracity.

"The Kinsey scale attempts to describe a person's sexual history or episodes of their sexual activity at a given time." http://en.wikipedia.org/Kinsey_scale

"The Kinsey scale ranked sexual behavior from 0 to 6 ..." http://en.wikipedia.org/Kinsey_Reports

"Another problem with Kinsey's use of his own scale was that his studies used past sexual behaviour as the only criteria ..." http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A570098

Perhaps you should be correcting those before challenging me.

No, show me someone who wishes to complicate it, and I will show you someone receiving research grants or funding of some other type.

Now, if you wish to discuss mechanism, then that is something else.

Yours,

Nigel.

Addendum: The fact I asked readers to visualise the, clearly-existing, multi-dimensional nature of human sexuality, based on Kinsey, was only illustrative. I am not providing my full hypothesis, as some, wet-behind-the-ears researcher may steal it ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr Nigel Leigh Oldfield (talk • contribs) 17:41, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• It makes no sense to cite what people have said about Kinsey's methods, when one has Kinsey himself: On page 638 of "Sexual Behavior of the Human Male," (where he presented his now famous scale) he wrote "Based on both psychologic reactions and overt experience, individuals are rated as follows: ..."
• I have never received funding to study sexual orientation. Making up information to suit your arguments will not help you to convince others of the validity of your arguments.
• There is little I can do to convince you I have no desire to steal anyone's research ideas. Moreover, anyone can assert that they have any kind of an hypothesis or discovery when they are unwilling to provide evidence of it. Feel free to return to this thread after you have published your hypothesis and therefore established provenance.

— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 18:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment:

Dear Dr Cantor,

"It makes no sense to cite what people have said about Kinsey's methods, when one has Kinsey himself: On page 638 of "Sexual Behavior of the Human Male," (where he presented his now famous scale) he wrote "Based on both psychologic reactions and overt experience, individuals are rated as follows: ...""

It makes every sense. The point of this site is to educate, clarify and elucidate. That is what I do. I trust you read my addendum.

"I have never received funding to study sexual orientation. Making up information to suit your arguments will not help you to convince others of the validity of your arguments."

Did I mention you? But, since you did .... your work is not related to sexual orientation? Is that your claim, here, in public? Your institution does not receive funding? You do not receive a salary? Who is paying for all the NMR time? ;)

"There is little I can do to convince you I have no desire to steal anyone's research ideas."

It's always 'you, you, you.' :)

"Moreover, anyone can assert that they have any kind of an hypothesis or discovery when they are unwilling to provide evidence of it. Feel free to return to this thread after you have published your hypothesis and therefore established provenance."

Heck no. I need many more people to make continually-more mistakes (and correct observations), before anyone is ready for me to publish my work or hypotheses. If it is not me, someone else will get there, in time.

Yours,

Nigel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr Nigel Leigh Oldfield (talk • contribs) 18:15, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

If anyone finds value in whatever argument your above vagaries are trying to make, s/he can certainly chime in.
— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 18:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment:

Dear Dr Cantor,

I am sorry if you think me vague. I like to think of myself as being careful. I think my hypothesis (as far as it has been presented) is pretty clear and consistent with all the evidence.

I guess you would put my apparent vagaries down to me being ill - yes? Maybe that is because of your shrunken hypothalamus and overall neural symmetry, in conflict with your frontal lobes, in comparison to a normal man ;) ... you think ?

Yours,

Nigel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr Nigel Leigh Oldfield (talk • contribs) 20:31, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

"hetero-homo"?

"hetero-homo continuum"? This is awkward and unencyclopedic - not sure how it should be fixed but is it even needed to have a hetero-homo section and a non-hetero-homo section? Seems pointy to me. Banjeboi 14:45, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

What is the source for this? Kinsey? It is my sense that most scholars today do not classify sexual orientation in terms of a bi-polar continuum. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:18, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

actually, that's a fairly common usage in gender studies - note that the APA link I gave above (here it is again) uses almost exactly that language. it's just the extension outside of human sexuality that is novel (unprecedented is maybe a better word).

Okay, as long as you have a verifiable reliable source. Fine by me. Still, I suspect researchers in other fields have different approaches. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

no question, and I wouldn't mind seeing that discussed on an article page - but this is a template, for heaven's sake.  :-) --Ludwigs2 21:22, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

original research in template

Cooljuno -PLEASE take this entire discussion, and the changes you're trying to make, over the the sexual orientation article, where it can be discussed properly. templates are not the place to try to structure a particular view.

also, footnotes don't belong in info-templates (they end up bleeding over into article space). if what you're trying to do is complicated enough that it needs footnotes, it's way too complicated for a template. --Ludwigs2 06:09, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Please read the provided references and linked articles to help understand sexual orientations. Heterosexual-homosexual continuum now has it's own article and has a reference from the American Psychological Association "a continuum that ranges from exclusive heterosexuality to exclusive homosexuality and includes various forms of bisexuality", and additional references. Please consider reading this and understanding the Heterosexual-homosexual continuum before you claim original research. And references have no problems being on templates, the United States article as well has references in it's article. If you are finding a problem with the reference system, please open a talk section, and not revert edits. I will make a template that will allow the template references not to "bleed over into template space", but until then the bleeding over will have to be tolerated, it is not affecting the appearance and people will still be able to access the correct reference .--Cooljuno411 06:32, 25 July 2008

Ok, i "noinclude" the references on this template. The references are not included wherever the template is placed, only on the actual template page. The only thing that appears is "view template source" at the bottom of the template. People wishing to view the template references can click that, and will be redirected to this actual template page and can view the sources. The issue of the references "bleeding over" to the articles is now solved. You can view Heterosexuality and see that the references numbers () are not there, but appear only on the template page.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 07:40, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Cooljuno - the references are a minor point. you are trying to change the conventional usage of commonly accepted terms by pressing a point in templates. you should be discussing this in article space, and if a consensus emerges in article space (one that is based on properly reliable sources) then and only then should we consider changing templates to fit. --Ludwigs2 17:43, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, i have referenced and taken all proper procedure. So you are out of luck. And please indulge me in how i am "changing the conventional usage". And also please tell me how i am "twinkling". If you actually prove, i will stop the continuing of the reverting.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 03:55, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

It is only logical: templates help us organize articles on linked topics at Misplaced Pages; they are an intra-Misplaced Pages reference tool. Ludwigs2 is quite right - everything that goes into a template should derive from actual articles. If there is some controversy over the state of research on a particular topic, the place to hash it out is at the article space. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:37, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Yep, your right, "everything that goes into a template should derive from actual articles", it is when you have it how it is, Ludwig's ideal version of the template is not, there are references and link to heterosexual-homosexual continuum and other things he, for some reason unknown to me, finds wrong with how the template is. The template is correct as is.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 03:38, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Cooljuno - I have given you a link to the APA opinion on this issue, which should be sufficient to support the original version of the template, and my compromise version as well. you have given no such support for your inclusions, so they are 'in fact' original research. fight the issue on article pages, where sources can effectively be brought to bear. DO NOT EDIT WAR IT into templates, which are not designed to handle content disputes. --Ludwigs2 19:29, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

re-add Non-heterosexual

It can wait until the AfD is completed but please re-add Non-heterosexual as it covers Sexual orientations that are ... non-heterosexual but also not bisexual or homosexual. Banjeboi 21:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Those weird footnotes are back

The footnotes really should be on the template at all. If they don't belong in any one article then maybe they aren't worth keeping. Banjeboi 01:30, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

The footnotes have been set to "noinclude" and will not appear on the pages the template is placed. the only way one can see the references is if they click the footnote link at the bottom and will be redirected to the template page. We have solved the issue with the references "bleeding over" onto pages the template is placed on. The references do no affect pages and are not harming anyone. And like i ahve said 10.7 trillion times, references can be on templates, they are in the template used on the United States.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 03:34, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually every instance of the template shows a weird "template footnotes" section which seems peculiar and unhelpful. If something needs explaining or referencing on a template we should instead fix it, simplify it, clear it off. Maybe another template that includes terms not appropriate for this one may make more sense. Maybe they don't need to be on a template. Banjeboi 20:57, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I keep telling Cooljuno that points which lack consensus and sourcing shouldn't be on templates at all, at least not until they have achieved consensus on article pages, but he is insistent on imposing this perspective on the template (I assumed because that gets his message across on the most pages with the least effort that way). don't know what to do about his attitude, except to keep reverting his OR until he takes the issue up properly on an article page. --Ludwigs2 21:17, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah, well let's assume good faith but agree that templates are not appropriate venues for content disputes in general and, in fact, should have consensus for controversial items as they effect more than one article at a time. Banjeboi 21:21, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

What's the point of the references? They mostly seem based on a wiktionary reference, but wiktionary isn't reliable.. so why are we even tagging a template with this?--Crossmr (talk) 02:34, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

combined sexual orientation and sexual identities

There has been controversy of what exactly falls under a sexual orientation and what fall under sexual identity. For example, some find asexuality to be a sexual orientation and other feel it sexual identity. By combining the two group the template holds a neutral point of view, leaving the exact classification up to the user. By separating them we are putting one of point-of-view above the other. --Cooljuno411 (talk) 23:45, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

That is a valid point but there seems to be no consensus for that change as of yet. It seems like each of the disputed articles should be improved so it's clear what each is considered. It may even make sense to have a related subjects section so that we do remain neutral. Banjeboi 23:44, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Well it is imperative to have them grouped together, who is someone to say that, for example, autosexuality isn't a sexual orientation and is a "sexual identity", and vise-versa. I personally take offense by saying one's emotional desires aren't "an enduring emotional, romantic, sexual, or affectional attraction" and just regarded as sexual choices, it implies that people under these "sexual identities" do not experience emotional, romantic, or affectional attraction, which i find to be rather ignorant that some who is not heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual does not have the right to, nor experiences, these compassionate feelings. It is not in our place to say what is a sexual orientation and who can experience "an enduring emotional, romantic, sexual, or affectional attraction" and what is just regarded as sexual desires. I am reverting the edit with a minor wording changes, it not my, your right, or anyones right to say what is "an enduring emotional, romantic, sexual, or affectional attraction", and what is not.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 00:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC) And the thing you said about zoosexuality being under heterosexual-homosexual continuum was a visual error, i originally had a "br" separating them but someone removed it, this time i use a line to separate them.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 00:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Again, you are confusing sexual identity and sexual orientation in a way that is never done in the literature. sexual orientation always refers to to the continuum from heterosexuality to homosexuality in humans; there is nothing in the psychological or gay/lesbian literature that says otherwise.

PLEASE take this discussion to an article page, rather than trying to force it in on a template. original research in templates is very bad form. --Ludwigs2 01:11, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I reverted your good faith edit, and like i said above, i combined sexual orientation and sexual identity to leave opinions such as yours up to the reader. Like i said above, not everyone has the same views on this topic, some say only the hetero-homo continuum are orientations, and some definitions disagree with that. I have found a way that pleases everyone involved and holds a neutral point of view, so please stop trying to push your personal opinion on this template, you have no right to.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 01:35, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

again, what you are offering is original research. come back with with some verifiable sources that support the view that these things are part of sexual orientation and we can discuss the matter. until then, please leave the template with the (admittedly vanilla) but conventional definition.

CoolJ - I understand that you are trying to make a point here, but this just is not the correct venue to be making points. I can see having this discussion on a talk page, or on some article space, but not on a template. --Ludwigs2 02:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Like i said i combined "sexual orientation" and "sexual identities", if i recall you were the one that made the sexual identity section, the only thing i did was combine the two sections two remain neutral, being that there are wide verity of opinions. I am taking it you have an underling agenda and that you are know contradicting your own edits. Like i said, the only thing i did was combine the two sections that you created, in an effort to remain neutral, and you now you have removed all mention of it simply because they are grouped together. I am going to be seeking administrator assistance because you are going forth with a personal agenda to keep them separate.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 05:17, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Heavens to betsy! you are on a program, man. look, I don't really disagree with your perspective, and I personally don't have an opinion about whether your expanded understanding about sexual orientations has merits. if you really want to pursue this, you have several options: 1) get a PhD and argue for it in academic circles. 2) write a book and argue for it in the real world. 3) (and this would be the easiest short term goal) write an essay and post it here on wikipedia as an essay. I'll even help you get started on the last if you'd like. but stop trying to impose original research as fact in a frigging template! that's silly, and against wikipedia policy. --Ludwigs2 20:58, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Sexual orientation and sexual identities

Renamed template to Sexual orientations and sexual identities. This data will correspond with Template:Sexual identities. So User_talk:Ludwigs2 please refer to this template for your desired references. I based my edit 100% on your previous edit , but instead of having the sexual orientation and sexual identities separate, i combined the two sections, just how Template:Sexual identities is formated. And if continue your broken record tactics of repetitively claiming "original research", you will continue to prove you have an underlying agenda. And matters like this do not need a reference, they just need a lil' common sense. And if you really need a reference, feel free to look at the one you use to make your two separate lists in the first place, because all i did was combine the two lists you made.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 08:49, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I suspect you'll keep hearing "original research" until you, you know, provide a reference... – Luna Santin (talk) 08:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The whole controversy, if you read above, is personal classification of what exactly a sexual orientation and sexual identity is. Such classifications as asexuality are interpreted by some as a sexual orientation and by others as sexual identity. In an effort to remain neutral, it has became imperative to combine the two separate list under on titled Sexual orientations and sexual identities. By keeping them separate we are supporting one agenda above the other. And i don't know why he need a reference, i am just combining the two lists he made himself, into one, maybe he should look at what references he used to make the list in the first place. --Cooljuno411 (talk) 09:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

We need references because this is an encyclopedia with a heavy bias toward scholarly content. I'm sure you can provide ample evidence of your own opinions. Do you have any evidence this is supported by mainstream academia? – Luna Santin (talk) 09:05, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Sweetie, do you not understand what is going on? Please try rereading the whole talk again, this is a matter of neutrality. --Cooljuno411 (talk) 22:32, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

This was moved without gaining consensus. I have no great opinion either way, but clearly the opinions expressed did not indicate a consensus to merge the two. Also, the time from when you began discussion until the time you merged was much too small. You gave essentially a day and a half for discussion. SOmething like this should have taken a few weeks for discussion to build a consensus. IMO you should put it back and build consensus. This is a template, not a lone article and as such should be treated with exceptional sensitivity. The article has been entirely too volatile. Atom (talk) 12:55, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

This page shows no consensus for such a move, in fact, in the 9 hours span between your proposal and your move, only one other editor commented, and he opposed it. As such, your edit was disruptive. Please self-revert, or I'll do it. ThuranX (talk) 16:54, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

there is no consensus for this move; CJ is just pushing and pushing for his own perspective. I don't want to keep undoing his work myself (I've been doing it too often, but I will, if necessary), but if someone else wants to do it, I think this clearly constitutes page-move vandalism. --Ludwigs2 20:58, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Please do not remove the sexual identities/orientations. By doing so you are just as guilty of what you accuse me of. As i recall by the original edit, , they were on the template before this whole conflict, so please do not remove them. And once again, i combined the list "sexual orientations" and "sexual identities" to say "orientations and identities". I will once again repeat the dispute. There is controversy f what exactly falls under a "sexual orientation" and what exactly falls under a "sexual identity". And once again i will say by having them separate, and having classifications, such as asexuality or zoosexuality, under one list or the other puts one agenda above the other, and is un-neutral. For example, you and others might see asexuality as a "sexual identity" and others see it as a "sexual orientation", but having it under one list or the other puts one agenda above another agenda. And once again i will say, we have not right to say who is right and who is wrong, so the only way to remain neutral is to have the lists combined. And User:Ludwigs2, how am i pushing my agenda, i am trying to remain neutral by having them together, you are the one pushing your opinions by having them separate. And if anyone is going to continue to revert, revert to this edit , the edit everyone keeps reverting to is an even newer edition by User:Ludwigs2 which was made with out input as well. --Cooljuno411 (talk) 22:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

CoolJuno - There is no controversy in secondary sources, as far as I can see. the only conflict here is with your personal understanding of the issue, and while I respect that, it clearly constitutes original research and does not merit inclusion on a template that is transcluded across a broad range of pages. this template was about sexual orientation which is a well-established and well-defined topic in secondary sources; it was not and is not a template about sexual identities, sexual preferences, or sexual behaviors. if you want to make it a template about that, that's worthy of discussion, but you are not discussing, you are edit-warring. set the template back to what it was, LEAVE IT LIKE THAT, and discuss the changes you want to make like a decent editor.

if you are not going to be reasonable and try to reach consensus, particularly when a number of editors clearly oppose the changes you are making, then I will treat you like a vandal and revert the damage you are doing. I am willing to listen to you and maybe come to some sort of compromise (I really don't care about this issue, except to the extent that it reflects consensus in verifiable sources), but I'm not going to put up with this aggressive and childish insistence that you get your way. If I ever want to deal with that kind of thing, I'll have kids of my own. understood? --Ludwigs2 22:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Once again, i just combined the two lists to remain neutral. ANd do you want a reference? Here , Sexual orientation: Ones tendencies of sexual attraction, considered as a whole. --Cooljuno411 (talk) 23:58, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

and once again, combining the two lists (while possibly a valid move) should only be done after proper talk page discussion because (once again) this is not how the issues are presented in secondary sources. further, a reference to wiktionary is not a valid secondary source (at best it's a tertiary source, assuming that it itself is properly validated), and even if it were there would still be synthesis issues here that we'd need to discuss.

I want you to understand that I'm not objecting to the changes themselves; I'm objecting to the way you are going about making them. slow down, stop making the same contentious changes over and over again, and try to reach some compromise through discussion that we can all agree to, before you try to put it in the template. I'm not against letting you get what you want here (which is maybe a dangerous thing to say on this topic) but it needs to be substantiated in wp:secondary sources, and have some reasonable consensus among various editors. ok?

combined sexual orientation and sexual identities discussion

I have put in a request for input from users on Portal:LGBT. Pleas continue further discussion here.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 22:30, 12 August 2008 (UTC) I put the rquest in the wrong place, can someone tell me where i can place request.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 00:01, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

• Wiktionary, Sexual Orientation: "Ones tendencies of sexual attraction, considered as a whole." --Cooljuno411 (talk) 00:01, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
  • wiktionary is not a valid wp:secondary source.

• Religious tolerance: "Some conservative Christian organizations define "sexual orientation" very broadly as a list of parameters that define all aspects of one's sexual desires.....Pedophilia -- being sexually attracted to children -- would be another part for a small minority of adults. So would bestiality -- being attracted to animals. Accepting this definition would complicate government legislation dealing with sexual orientation. Any civil rights legislation which extends protection to persons on the basis of their sexual orientation would, under this definition, also decriminalize pedophilia and bestiality. "--Cooljuno411 (talk) 00:12, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
  • this article goes on to say "To our knowledge, this definition does not appear in any dictionary or medical text; it seems to be used only by a minority of fundamentalist and other evangelical Christians" which would make it fall under wp:undue. not to mention the fact that this viewpoint is adopted by people who want to criminalize all non-straight sexual behavior... --Ludwigs2 00:23, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
    • Remember how i said "there are different views on this, and we are to remain neutral and can't support one agenda above the other.... And btw, that would be a false statement, i just quoted American Psychological Association bellow. "--Cooljuno411 (talk) 00:36, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

• Sexual Orientation Worksheet, by Ben Roe: "not just three sexual orientations, heterosexual, homosexual and bisexual, but indeed a whole range of complex, interacting, and fluid factors in our sexuality."--Cooljuno411 (talk) 00:21, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

• American psychological association: Sexuality, What is sexual orientation: "sexual orientation is usually discussed in terms of three categories... However, some people may use different labels or none at all."--Cooljuno411 (talk) 00:36, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe the quote from American Psychological Association that i list above is evident enough to support my editions to the template.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 00:58, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Except that the APA page you've linked makes it abundantly clear they use the phrase "sexual orientation" to refer to the heterosexual-homosexual continuum. The Klein Grid doesn't make any apparent mention of zoophilia, autoeroticism, or any of the other items you're pushing to include here. Your desired changes remain unsupported by any reliable sources and are clearly opposed by a consensus of editors here. – Luna Santin (talk) 02:32, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

No sweetie, it says clearly "However, some people may use different labels or none at all", that is only you opinion that it is "unsupported by any reliable sources". --Cooljuno411 (talk) 02:38, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Stop calling people 'sweetie', it's condescending. Stop quoting from Wikitionary; you can't cite Wikis to push things in other wikis. There is no question in the medical literature about the difference between orientations and identities; you push your own agenda to conflate the two. Please cease now. Consensus remains against your edits and goals, and is unlikely to change soon. This has been going of fro weeks now and is well into tendentious territory; only Ludwigs2 is bothering to continue this, and I'm here supporting him. If you're in any way unclear about the implications, know that I can't stand Ludwigs2. That I'm publicly on the same side and supporting his arguments instead of letting him stand alone should say volumes. You need to drop this already. You're wrong, everyone so far seems to clearly oppose your goals. If you persist, you will wind up blocked or banned. Stop before then. ThuranX (talk) 02:57, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

No, your pushing you agenda by denying clearly what the American Psychological Association says "sexual orientation is usually discussed in terms of three categories... However, some people may use different labels or none at all." And you would clearly discover you are wrong if you click a link or two, feel free to select the one above. And if you recall, my edit had to sub sections one with orientations that comply to heterosexual-homosexual continuum and and on that didn't. So please tell me what your issue is with that. And btw, i am the one with the refernce on my side, where's yours?--Cooljuno411 (talk) 03:16, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree: calling other editors "sweetie" is entirely inappropriate, and you should stop. That aside, what reference is on your side, exactly? Each time we point out your latest cherry-picked sentence is incorrectly interpreted, you go and cherry pick another snippet. The source as a whole clearly refers to orientation on the aforementioned continuum. – Luna Santin (talk) 03:45, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I support the previous edit by Cooljuno411, his addition clearly complies by the article writen by the American Psychological Association. His edit complies to the definition that says sexual orientations do not have to comply to the heterosexual/homosexual continuum. It supports every contender at hand by clearly classifying what falls under the continuum and what does not fall under the continuum, his addition is the only one that I have seen that supports the definition provided by the APA. The current edit completly denies what the APA says about sexual orientations and how people may use "different labels or none at all". --StealthyVlad (talk) 03:56, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

• Template-Class LGBTQ+ studies pages
• WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies articles