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Threats to exterminate me, overdose of lead etc. on my User pages

Hi, I checked my User page and talk page today and found it had some very nasty edits made, threats, wanting me exterminated and given an overdose of lead and so on.

I have now undone the edits but they remain in the history record so I reckon right now it will be easy enough for someone to undo my undones and restore the abusive edits so it is not a satisfactory situation right now to say the least.

This is my user page and my user talk page - Peter Dow (talk)

The abusive and threatening edits have been made both by unsigned IPs interspersed with signed edits by one user called GeorgeFormby1

This is one such edit by IP of my user page to illustrate -

diff IP 82.17.219.182

Helo, my name is peter dow and im a retard, i am a pathetic 47 year old nobody who has committed high treason against the Crown and should be traked down by mi5 and exteminatid.

The abusive threatening edits to my user talk page are

diff IP 86.132.166.95

PETER DOW IS A MENTALLY ILL, DELOUSIONARY FRUITCAKE WHO NEEDS TO BE LOCKED UP FOR THE SAFETY OF OTHERS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.166.95 (talk) 10:44, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

and

diff by IP 82.17.219.182

....Including, of course, the Queen and the entire Royal Family, When a government with some balls gets to power he'll get an overdose of lead-Duce Fox, Defender of the Realm and Crown 22:18, 12 August 3008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.17.219.182 (talk)

The pattern of edits on my user page done by IP 82.17.219.182 can be seen here and you can see that that IP has been used for the abusive edits of my Peter Dow user page, and to edit, I presume, the culprit GeorgeFormby1's own user page. So if he thinks he is covering his tracks entirely by making unsigned edits he is mistaken.

The edits made by IP 86.132.166.95 are not yet directly associated with anything else that I can see but it looks like the same guy in my opinion based on the timings of the edits - within a few days of each other.

So I need some administrator help to prevent this very malicious, abusive and threatening edits to my user page and to my user talk page.

I am quite new to Misplaced Pages and as a newcomer, it seems to be with Misplaced Pages user pages, is that, it is impossible for the user to protect his or her user pages from abusive and threatening changes - is that right? There is no way actually to take username ownership of your user page, to stop such horrible edits, is there?

So I don't know what action one can take - except initially to report the problem to the administrators. Do you ban editing from troublesome IPs? Well perhaps we can get to the solution once an administrator takes a look at the problem.

Thanks for looking at this and for helping as much as you can.

Peter Dow (talk) 12:54, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

It appears that the edits have been oversighted (removed) from your talkpage history. Under the circumstances, the persons able to remove the edits are also likely to be looking at limiting such edits in future so I think this matter can be closed. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:05, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me LessHeard vanU but the history of both my user page and user talk page seemed unchanged when I revisited those pages - no oversight removal of history edits which I could see - are we looking at the same Peter Dow (talk) pages? Peter Dow (talk) 13:26, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I would advise you to request semi-protection of both pages at WP:RFPP to avoid such things from happening again. It is completely allowed to request such protection :-) SoWhy 13:13, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Hey thanks SoWhy for the tip about semi-protection. I will now investigate that and take any action I can to protect my user pages. :) Peter Dow (talk) 13:26, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I've put level 3 warnings on both IPs talkpages. If you want to complain to the ISP the July vandalism on your talk page was from a BT IP - their complaint address is abuse@btbroadband.com and you need to send them this link http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Peter_Dow&diff=next&oldid=224544960. The August vandalism to your user page was from an NTL/Virgin IP address and their complaint line is pim@virginmedia.co.uk you'd need to send them this http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User%3APeter_Dow&diff=231534955&oldid=216438185 ref. Hope that helps. ϢereSpielChequers 13:33, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Gosh. lol Thanks WereSpielChequers Peter Dow (talk) 13:46, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Semi-protection will block any IP address from making any changes to your pages. Meanwhile, I'm wondering what an "overdose" of lead would be? That is, what would be a "normal" dose of lead? Anyway, if a registered user similarly vandalizes your pages, you could also get swift action by taking it to WP:AIV. Baseball Bugs 14:29, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

"Overdose of lead" likely refers to shooting him or her with a gun (with lead bullets). It's a common expression. --ElKevbo (talk) 15:54, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Aha, as in "I'll fill ya full o' lead." Not good. And then there's the "exterminate" part, which means the authors probably watch too much Dr. Who. Baseball Bugs 16:39, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Of the two the one I find more worrying is Special:Contributions/82.17.219.182. From the other contribs it could well be connected to user:GeorgeFormby1, who in any event has a user page that I would suggest an admin look at. I'm not necessarily saying that fans of Mussolini should be banned from Misplaced Pages, but threats of violence? ϢereSpielChequers 17:08, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't look to me like user:GeorgeFormby1 has anything to do with this. He simply removed an offensive sentence, which he may have spotted on RC patrol. Looie496 (talk) 17:28, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

You think? --jpgordon 17:47, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually it was these three diffs that made me suspect that user:GeorgeFormby1 might be connected to the vandalising IP. ϢereSpielChequers 18:03, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/user:GeorgeFormby1 submitted. I hope I only made one mistake in it. ϢereSpielChequers 14:39, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I think that this should be left open until the checkuser case is resolved. —Sunday 23:50, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/GeorgeFormby1 has been investigated and closed, user:GeorgeFormby1 was using one of those IPs and is indefinitely blocked and his IP address blocked for a month. Hopefully that will end the matter, but I'd suggest an admin put appropriate notices on the blocked account then this thread can be closed. ϢereSpielChequers 06:44, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Anti-semitic remarks and edits

I feel this comment by user:Puttyschool was completely inappropriate: "it is WikipediA not JpediA" - after this editor wrongly assumed that the Jerusalem Post is "for Jews only."

I'm very new to Misplaced Pages, and these comments are completely unacceptable and incomprehensible in an environment which prides itself on promoting civility. I am trying to be very civil, but I find these anti-semitic and ignorant statement to be completely repugnant, and I'm not sure how to handle it appropriately. I feel that this person should perhaps be warned and watched due to their anti-semitic slurs and multiple reverts along those same lines.

I have seen quite a bit of anti-semitic attacks on both my user page and one of the main articles in which I have been editing. It is my hope that Misplaced Pages will take a firm stand against this serious problem.--Einsteindonut (talk) 03:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

A message has been left for Puttyschool on his talk page. You might want to request that your user page be semi-protected if you feel it is a target for vandalism. All the best, Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 03:17, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Erik, I will consider your advice and appreciate your action though I don't think I am able to see the message you left for him?--Einsteindonut (talk) 03:19, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

See User_talk:Puttyschool#JPedia. Corvus cornix_talk 03:40, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

A relevant question

I don't agree with the revert of course but what would I say if someone said "this is Misplaced Pages, not Islamopedia/Hindupedia/etc"? I've heard these many times onwiki but would I leave a warning (stating that the remark was offensive) at their talk page just for saying that?

So why is it considered anti-semitism? Why that was considered offensive? Could you guys explain further? -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 09:15, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

It's an anti-semitic statement since the "J" clearly stands for "Jew" - and because Putty made the statement that he believe the Jerusalem Post is "just for Jews." It's an assumption that "Jews are trying to take over Misplaced Pages" and put their "Jewish" POV into it. It's highly offensive and completely anti-semitic. I don't fling around that term lightly. I believe the majority of Jewish people would agree. And by "anti-semitic" I mean that it inherently expressing hatred and/or disdain toward Jews. I would never use the other terms you mention when dealing with an Muslim or Hindu editor because I would never judge any editor based upon their religion, as this comment CLEARLY does. I find it troubling that I'd would have to explain this to what appears to be an admin with the power to block people. Do you feel it is OK to make comments about editors and their work here based upon their religion? Or to assume that their religion is taking over Misplaced Pages to the point that stating "this is not Jewish Pedia" is acceptable? I find it extremely unsettling that you don't comprehend this and no one else (with the exception of Aharon) understands. If I said something to the effect of "this isn't "Palipedia" to some Palestinian trying to make an edit, my guess is that I would be blocked and banned for hate speech. The double standards here are appalling and extremely unsettling. Regarding a comment about the threat of a lawsuit below, it was a remark in general. I'm not threatening to sue anyone in particular. I was upset at the time for various reasons. I certainly think that some of the misinformation on Misplaced Pages with regard to people, situations, and organizations is certainly someone's responsibility. When things are highly inaccurate and possibly defamatory on such a notable site as Misplaced Pages, I would think that those entities might wish to consider legal action. That's all I was saying. Not against any editors in particular but against Misplaced Pages in general, perhaps. Again---not a threat. But what are people and organizations to do when Misplaced Pages completely gets stories wrong? What if the information on Misplaced Pages leads to damage a person or institution's reputation and/or earning potential? What if information on Misplaced Pages puts lives at risk? Is any of that explained to all these editors here? I'm not a legal expert and I'm not sure about legal recourse, but I'm just asking. I fail to see how such a small statement with regard to legal action should be considered should be taken as a "threat." I just think Misplaced Pages editors and admins should be far more responsible, especially when it comes to allegations of "Jews taking over Misplaced Pages" (ie. "Jpedia")--Einsteindonut (talk) 09:54, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

It is clearly an unacceptable thing to say of course. Puttyschool should stop immediately and refrain from using such remarks or he would get blocked. But believe me, not all people would call it "anti-semitism." Other people of different confessions may get offended if someone would use something like "hindupedia", "islamopedia", "hamaspedia", etc. That happens here and we just call that "incivility." It has been discussed several times here and unfortunately there has never been someting clear. I hope people would get to a resolution. My point is that we should be firm in dealing with all this BS (with no double standards of course). All we want is a better atmosphere. That is my point and that is why we have Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration.

On the other hand, I'd like you try to wp:assume good faith. If I had to block your second account it is because leaving an account previously blocked and starting a new one can be seen as avoiding scrutiny. If everybody does so then it would be impossible to manage Misplaced Pages. And of course, you were not the only person I check-usered. In parallel, I'm finished here, since "faysal" blocked me is sad because first, we don't want people to leave just for the sake of leaving and second, because I never blocked you. I blocked your second account. You were pissed off and that I understand (and I didn't consider any of what you said as legal threat - it happens) but that doesn't mean you are correct and right (saying thanks you and fuck you). Really Einsteindonut, we try to avoid the words enemy and evil. pathetic. I had offered you my help but you chose to not assume good faith. You'd have already been blocked because of all that but admins have used their cool sense. I hope this is clear.

Again, I suggest that you better think about the message I left for you on your talk page. That has been sincere and I am not interested in wasting neither my time nor the time of others. -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 18:47, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I find it very sad that I am the one getting reprimanded and told what I can and cannot say in this case. I would hope that you and others can pay attention to the CATALYST of all of this in which you have spent critiquing me upon and spend more time with regard to that problem as opposed to focusing the attention and onus of the responsibility on the person who complained about it. I hardly feel I'm wasting anyone's time here, especially when people continue to blame me for the response to the original problem, rather than the original problem itself. Everyone here seems very keen on focusing on the complainer and not the complaint. I find that to be extremely troublesome. Thanks for all the "advice" "Fayssal" - go ahead and block me if you wish. I don't really want to be a part of something in which people can get away with making anti-semitic comments and then people who react to them are the ones who get reprimanded and inconvenienced as a result. Thanks for your offer to "help" Fayssal, but I'll seek it elsewhere. --Einsteindonut (talk) 20:12, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

(restored comment lost in earlier edit conflict)

I fade up from your method of twisting facts and my words, my comment was “it is WikipediA not JpediA” , “Jpedia” is completely not anti-semitic, is “JPOST” anti-semitic. Reserve your analysis to yourself, and speak only about yourself not about other editors« PuTTY 11:39, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

(end of restored comment)

Puttyschool. Please refrain from doing that again. It could be that it is not considered as an anti-semitic remark but we all agree that it is totally unacceptable. Just don't do it again. Thanks. -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 18:47, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Einsteindonut, I never imagined that you will remove my comments and others from this admin board, how dare you Please check Why Einsteindonut removed my two comments« PuTTY 12:16, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

It was actually a pure accident. After you brought it to my attention I tried to re-add it, but then the page was updated and I got confused and couldn't. I'm happy to discuss whatever it is you were trying to say. In fact, I went back to try to find it and couldn't! I'm having some difficult times editing on these admin boards. I'm fine with whatever people want to say here though. There's no good reason for me to delete anyone's comment. I looked at that edit and i was trying to make a minor edit of my own stuff and I think I accidentally deleted yours. My apologies. I'm being 100% honest here. I'm ready to respond to whatever it was you said. I think you claimed that the JPedia comment was not anti-semitic. I'd be inclined to believe that it wasn't, but combined with the fact that you also claimed that the JPost was "just for Jews," that is what sealed the deal for me. If "Jpost" is "just for Jews" then certainly "JPedia" (in your mind" would be too, right? I mean, that's what you were trying to say, right? That Misplaced Pages is not "Just for Jews?" Yes, that is true, but that point had nothing to do with my edit, other than the fact that we were working on an article about a Jewish organization, and that I am Jewish. --Einsteindonut (talk) 13:50, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I fade up from your method of twisting facts and my words, my comment was “it is WikipediA not JpediA” , “Jpedia” is completely not anti-semitic, is “JPOST” anti-semitic. Reserve your analysis to yourself, and speak only about yourself not about me or other editors. you can focus only on my 3 words, dropping all other stories you have, like the GFDL license story. I think one of our arguments while reverting our edits was about your cutting and pasting from the JPOST article, then why you insist J mean Jewish, by the way is every “J” anti-semitic from your point of view or you select according to the circumstances, you can share your friends about your thoughts and ideas, but I’m not obligated to share your thoughts and ideas. About removing my comment, you removed two comments from two different places, is this "a pure accident", Wow, what a strange accident, which can’t happen in Misplaced Pages.« PuTTY 14:20, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Putty, it was the context in which you said it which made it anti-semitic. No, the "J" in JPost (which stands for "Jerusalem") is not anti-semitic. You later explained that you thought the JPost was "for Jews only", therefore, by saying saying "this isn't JPedia" what you were saying is that Misplaced Pages is "not for Jews only" - meaning that you have some problem with Jewish editors here, or stories about Jewish organizations. Of course Misplaced Pages is not for Jews only. That is clear to me and everyone involved. I wasn't making the point that it is for Jews only, yet you felt the need to express that as I was trying to protect whatever it was you were trying to do to the article in question. Speaking of which, all of this is backed up by the fact that you originally marked the article in question for "speedy deletion" along with some twisted rationale for why you didn't want it here from the very beginning. Ever since then, each of your edits have been questionable. With the comment that "this is not Jpedia" I find it extremely difficult to AGF with regard to your editing of the JIDF article or editing anything with regard to Jews, Judaism, or Israel. I fully understand that there are some serious cultural differences at work here. You are from Egypt and the record of state-controlled media espousing anti-semitic viewpoints is clear. Perhaps you have allowed this to impact you. Granted, I would never judge you on the fact that you are from Egypt alone. I have many good friends from Egypt actually. However, your comment makes me seriously wonder what you feel about the Jewish people and our presence here on Misplaced Pages, involved with articles about Jewish organizations, etc. I maintain that your anti-semitic slur was very wrong and I feel very strong and swift action should be taken against it, and ANY hate speech like it. Contrary to whether anyone understands this, I am not over-reacting here. This is completely unacceptable. What's worse, is that he and others don't even get it. Since when does the religion of an editor matter? Why did Putty feel the need to mention that Misplaced Pages is not for Jews only? Perhaps he doesn't want Jews here at all? He certainly didn't want the JIDF article and he certainly feels the need to assert the fact that this Misplaced Pages is not just for Jews (despite the fact that no one claimed otherwise.) If he gets away with this, perhaps I'll start figuring out the religious and/or ethnic background of every editor and each time I revert their edits I'll make sure that they know that people of their religious and/or ethnic background aren't the only ones here. (I won't do that, but hopefully you get my point?) --Einsteindonut (talk) 15:51, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I don’t know exactly why you are talking about, you method makes me looses concentration, your statement about Egypt is completely wrong, I never heard it before, but I know most of your statements are based uponWP:OR .
I was reverting your edits as I documented in talk page for two reasons, i) unlicensed image with a very long unreasonable funny story ii)you added un-encyclopedic words as they appeared between quotes in the JPOST article, and what appear between quotes means that the words are not the JPOST point of view, about my assumption that JPOST is for Jews only, I’m not a reader for the JPOST newspaper, so my assumption was based on a few articles I read from the JPOST and this can be wrong, but this does not mean that JpediA is anti-semantic, especially my comment was not a general one as yours but was specific to you and your edit to the article. I don’t know too much about the history of the “J” but I took it from the” J”POST, and I was telling you that Misplaced Pages can’t use the same words as JPOST. Another point; please revise your contributions and tell me where is your NPOV from your first account till this one, and the next.....
So In order not to lose my main point I want to remind everyone I’m requesting blocking your account as you removed two subsequent comments I added in two different edits, and I want the history of this page to be checked I’m AGF but also it is one of my rights to know haw this was a mistake.« PuTTY 20:36, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

The images licenses changed, as I mentioned. Also, apparently in your mind the "un-encylopedic" words are as follows:

"The JIDF claimed the group "actively promoted hatred, violence, murder and genocide." from: Jewish Internet Defense Force 'seizes control' of anti-Israel Facebook group

You tried to revert it, yet it still stands. I fully explained why I was placing it there in the talk section. Please stop acting like you don't know what you are doing and why you are doing it. You have made your opinion known in your request for "speedy deletion" upon this article's very first appearance, where you stated: They can help their country as they wish and by any mean...but outside Misplaced Pages pages So according to your "logic" a pro-Israel organization which is noted in reliable sources should not have any articles about them in Misplaced Pages. Who exactly did you mean by "they?" Why should "they" not be allowed in Misplaced Pages? --Einsteindonut (talk) 21:25, 7 September

I share FayssalF's analysis.

If this remark was uncivil and so, unappropriated, because it is contrary to wp:agf; it is not anti-semite. By comparison, I have been told several times, and I think with reason, that it was not wp:fr here...

More, I think the suspicion of anti-semitism made by Einsteindonut is also against wp:agf. And from my personnal point of view, the accusation of antisemitism here, is even worst, it is against WP:NPA.

In the particular context of Einsteindonut, who doesn't masterize yet all wikipedia policies, we should not give him the feeling "anti-semitism suspicion" is a good way out to solve the "content issues" he has with other editors.

Ceedjee (talk) 09:35, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

In fact, my point was addressed to the experienced admins (though no admin has commented yet on this thread) and Malik Shabazz who left the soft warning at Puttyschool's talk page. It was not addressed to Einsteindonut as he is a new Wikipedian.

On another note, I've just now run a CU on the vandal 75.3.147.166 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) who left the swastika and the Islamic Jihadist flag at Einsteindonut's page. That lead us to here. I am not convinced of the response gotten out there and would ask some other admins to review though admin Luna Santin has already blocked the IP.

And Einsteindonut, I know you are new but please do not use sockpuppets. I am leaving Einsteindonut (talk · contribs) as your main account and blocking Wikifixer911 (talk · contribs) (which was already blocked once) and PeterBergson (talk · contribs) (the original one but with only a few edits) per wp:SOCK. I've not taken any action concerning Einsteindonut since this is your first time. As for the IP, I believe you used it accidentally three times or four, so please refrain from using multiple accounts. Puttyschool (talk · contribs) was also check-usered but came clean. -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 12:04, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the contribs for the userids, it seems that they were used sequentially and not in parallel. I.e. it took a certain amount of time for him to settle on one id to use repeatedly and it wan't necessarilly deliberate sockpuppetry. Might it have been better simpy to ask him to settle on one and drop the rest?--Peter cohen (talk) 16:22, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry is only deliberate use of mulitple accounts to create disruption. You could hardly call Edonut's other accounts "abusive". Hopefully he learns, but for now it's probably best to assume good faith. Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 16:54, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

The account should be blocked for legal threats anyways. Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 16:59, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Nothing is abusive here and I made sure I didn't use that term when I blocked. And, he's left with the one with the most edits and the non-blocked one. It is like if he got no official history of sockpuppetry at all except this thread but this will be archived and we'll forget about it. I thought about it the way you did guys. -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 17:03, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Re legal threats. Someone needs to explain to him that stuff. He's so pissed especially that he got a warning for a pic he had uploaded. It is a bad day for him and I believe he can reconsider. No big deals. -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 17:06, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Fayssal, Thanks so much for handling this in a calm and equitable manner. I wonder is it possible for you to contact Eisensteindonut and explain to him what you did and why? I am also a newbie and I got blocked very quickly initially because of my bullheadedness but also because no one took the time to "state the obvious" the obvious of course being things that I had no idea about or of which I had different (and incorrect) interpretations. In other words, lets all go give Einsteindounut some free Wp support, to make up for the block.. Before the block I had offered to do some editing with Einsteindounut on a non controversial article together.Maybe you more experienced editors could do the same? Lastly, Fayssal, are you really interested in knowing why saying "Jpedia" is absolutely rude and possibly anti-semitic? Im not sure of the proper forum to discuss it but I spend four years as a Campus Director of a national Jewish organization and also headed others. I would be happy to provide further explanations, on your talk page or in email. I would do this for others too of course. aharon42 (talk) 21:37, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Aharon and welcome on board. I'll be using Einsteindonut's and your talk pages for the purposes you are stating. -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 04:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

aharon42, "Jpedia" may be rude according to some editors POV, but sure it is not anti-semitic« PuTTY 11:44, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Take it from an Egyptian who knows. What is this, Egyptpedia? I assume I can get away with this, since no one wants to get on Putty's case for his remarks and since he is unwilling to even recognize what he did was wrong---thanks in large part to everyone focusing on ME rather than the catalyst to the problem. In any event, what can I really expect from people who are not Jewish? Do you see now why there are organization like the JIDF and ADL, etc? People don't even have a clue as to what anti-semitism is, and when it is there, no one even wants to do anything about it except "blame the Jew" for complaining about it. Thank you Misplaced Pages for proving something I already knew. Never mind. Case closed.--Einsteindonut (talk) 20:24, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I don’t know, is this another kind of drama? Can I say that your word is Anti-Egyptians, or you are also referring to Jews from Egypt and your word is Anti-Egyptians/Anti-Semantic as well? I don’t know how much time you need in order to learn, it is easy “judge the contents not the contributors”« PuTTY 21:03, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Both of you could do with a healthy dose of WP:AGF. Certainly the remark could be considered rude, but there's no need for this ridiculous argument -- just be the bigger person and step back a notch. If this sort of destructive bickering continues, there's a pretty good chance one or both of you will wind up banned from the article. Calm down and play nice. – Luna Santin (talk) 21:04, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Problem

About the block mentionned here above. It seems that Einsteindonut has a fixed IP. So when FayssalF blocked the IP, he also blocked the account... Einsteindonut didn't appreciate but I think he doesn't understand. Ceedjee (talk) 13:38, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

That's being autoblocked. "#1127998" unblocked. Please leave him alone as it may not be helpful. Thanks. -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 14:18, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Hey... It is you who blocked him and that is the block that upset him...

Ceedjee (talk) 16:07, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I know Ceedjee. I was just hopping to diffuse the situation. The message you left him may have not been considered as helpful because of the timing. That's all the matter. -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 04:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok. :-) Ceedjee (talk) 07:19, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

So the drama

This all relates to Jewish Internet Defense Force. As I mentioned previously, this seems to be spillover from a yearlong flame war on Facebook.. There's excessive drama associated with this article. Some of the editors involved are affiliated with the organization. The organization comments on its web site about edits on Misplaced Pages, which seems to motivate their supporters and stir up their opponents. Despite that, the article is in reasonably decent shape. As an editing dispute, it's minor. The sides aren't that far apart. It bears watching, for civility and conflict of interest issues, but it's a tempest in a teapot. --John Nagle (talk) 06:01, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Nagle, as I have pointed out over and over and over again, the JIDF had nothing to do with that flame war in question. They stated their reasons for their action and it had they never once expressed anything to indicate that anything in that article you keep citing had anything to do with their actions. Furthermore, being a fan and a reader of the JIDF site hardly makes one "affiliated" with the JIDF. However, it is helpful in that I can say that the truth of the matter is that they targeted the group in question because of its content, not because of some flame war in which they never took part. RS have expressed that their reason for their Facebook presense in the first place was because a group went up to celebrate a murderer of students. Anyway, your assumptions continue to be wrong on both accounts. I have explained this to you in JIDF talk and now you are trying to raise the same moot points here. No RS prove that anything the JIDF did had anything to do with a "flame war." This apparently is your wrong/off track assessment of the situation. From my understanding, the JIDF had no idea about the information in the article you continue to cite. I'm not sure why you're trying to raise the same moot points again. --Einsteindonut (talk) 09:37, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I believe Nagle is right on the money, actually. It's become clear that one or more editors at the article is a prominent member of the JIDF. – Luna Santin (talk) 21:05, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

More drama. The JIDF is displeased with me ("Misplaced Pages editors snooping email, invading privacy, making threats, etc.) for mentioning on a talk page the list of their officers published on their Facebook page.. They've since removed their list of officers. Some of what the JIDF has written could be construed as an off-wiki threat, but I'd prefer to view it as WP:TROLL and suggest ignoring them. --John Nagle (talk) 22:09, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Please block Einsteindonut Account forever

Please check why Einsteindonut removed my comments from admin noticeboard, he removed two comments from two different places, it is not an editing mistake, so I suggest to block his account forever« PuTTY 12:48, 7 September 2008 (

It's best not to badger administrators with pleas as to what they should or should not do. Note whatever worries you, and leave it to their great experience and discretion to determine what, if anything, should be done. Nishidani (talk) 13:54, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

No Sir/Madam, I'm requesting to block the account for ever for the above reason« PuTTY 14:28, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

actually, I accidentally deleted one comment that I know of. If i deleted another one on this board, than that was an accident too. I'm happy to debate/discuss with you or anyone here, there, or anywhere. There is no good reason (other than a pure accident) that I would delete any of your comments in talk areas. Feel free to bring this onto my talk page if you wish, or re-submit them here. I really have had a difficult time editing on these boards and it is not my intention to delete anyone's remarks. My apologies if it appears that way, but it is true. --Einsteindonut (talk) 13:54, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Einsteindonut. Your edit has apparently caused a huge problem by messing up a page that now requires several people's work to fix. See below, the section, 'Board messed up SOME SECTIONS CORRUPTED so please can an admin notice this and help?' If it was an edit conflict consequence, you are not wholly responsible for that mess, provided you did not know what to do when there is an edit conflict. The least you should do if lower your sights, and start learning how to edit, without damaging this project.Nishidani

It was an accident which is easily caused by editors following the instructions given at edit conflicts. These instructions have now been changed in an attempt to reduce the occurrence of this problem. DuncanHill (talk) 20:26, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

It was an accident and it has been addressed in other areas and I have apologized for it. Again, none of this has to do with the original complaint. Very interesting how all of this because about ME, and not the fact that someone made a very discriminatory remark with regard to religion on Misplaced Pages. Call it what you want here, in my hood, it's called ANTISEMITISM and I feel it's very important to call it for what it is, and I will continue to do so, when I spot it here, or anywhere for that matter, ESPECIALLY when nothing is done about it, but to reprimand ME for complaining about it.

Putty needs to know what he did was 100% wrong and why. He also needs to apologize as that remark is completely unacceptable, or else I should be fine making comments after each of his edits saying "what is this, Egyptpedia?" Or something to that effect and not face any sanctions whatsoever for doing so. THEN maybe people will get onto Putty's case (as they are doing here with me for some reason.) LAME LAME LAME. --Einsteindonut (talk) 20:18, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Just a word of advice - having "Misplaced Pages = worse than Goebbels" on your userpage may make some editors less likely to listen to any genuine complaints you may have. DuncanHill (talk) 20:26, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Soapboxing is bad, mm'kay? HalfShadow 21:15, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

It would be dandy if the both of you two would just calm down and have some tea. – Luna Santin (talk) 21:08, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Einsteindonut, You know the only good point you bring is that one Egyptian, makes the Great WikipediA an EgyptpediA, wow how much Egyptians are great from 7500 year till now. Other points are not related to this section which is blocking your account.« PuTTY 21:20, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

No worries, I know all about ancient Egypt. There was a reason I left. I hope you remember who built your pyramids and I'm sure you remember 1967, hence your disdain for me, the article in question, the JPOST, etc. --Einsteindonut (talk) 21:40, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

It is not a claims, or some thing to remember, it is WP:RS, As documented in ancient Egyptian articles, Egyptian built the pyramids and the culture was before Jews, at the same time, the concept of building the pyramids is against (Jews/Christians/Muslims) religions. Every one wish to have this owner, we don’t mind, but our culture was a documented culture and we have all old documents. About 1967 and 1973 which you missed this is completely out of line and we forgot all about the two years, but we did not forget that Jews are our cousins.
Please report this Luna, he did not accept the tea« PuTTY 22:03, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Report what? That you're still egging him on? That he's still taking the bait? This isn't going to stop while you're both trying to get each other blocked or banned. There's more to civility than acting nice for ten minutes to get a leg up on somebody -- politeness isn't a one-shot thing. Both of you should really stop trying to take the high road, because you're both just coming across as squabbling children. – Luna Santin (talk) 23:22, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I'm not trying to get anyone blocked or banned. I want some serious understanding from Misplaced Pages editors (rather than "you're being ridiculous!" and throwing the rule book at me, blocking me, checking me for socks, etc.) and I want them to help me to fully get through to Putty that what he said was not just wrong, but a serious personal attack based upon someone's religion. Unfortunately, no one sees it that way for some reason, which I find concerning. And finally, I want an apology for him after he fully comprehends what he did. The fact that none of that has even begun to happen is what "eggs me on." I pretty much tune out much of whatever it is he is trying to say since that comment and some of his other questionable remarks and reverts. In order to move forward, I need more affirmation that I make good points. He's actually egging me on far less than everyone else basically telling me that I'm crazy for having a problem with this. Civility should include something to the effect of, here you have an editor who tried to talk his points through and made a good faith edit. Another editor comes along and pretty much says "this ain't for Jews" w/out given a good reason for making the revert. It was very clearly anti-semitic. I'm just a bit shocked that others don't see it. That is all. Not calling for his banning or his blocking, but for more understanding from fellow editors, and helping me fully get through to him why it was wrong and why it was offensive, and a sincere apology. Since none of that looks like it's ever going to happen, I remain flustered. Trust me, it's more about everyone else response (or lack thereof) which is more frustrating at this point than anything else. It was beyond "rude" it was a fully personal attack on me and all Jewish editors on Misplaced Pages. Unfortunately, the threats of blocking and bannings have apparently scared them so much that they are afraid to even come to my defense. I could care less if I am blocked and/or banned. It would say more about the problems with Misplaced Pages than it does about my activities here. --Einsteindonut (talk) 01:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

As I wrote on your Talk page, there are a lot of editors here who don't get it. Standing here and holding your breath until you get an apology won't enlighten them. — ] (] · ]) 01:12, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

No, it was not "very clearly" anti-semitic. A statement like "Misplaced Pages is not for Jews" could be interpreted in different ways; it could be taken to mean "Jews are not welcome here" (which seems to be your take on it, and would indeed be a troublesome sentiment), or it could be taken to mean "Misplaced Pages is not only for Jews" (an interpretation which assumes good faith and allows the editing process to move forward, and in fact a true statement besides). Given Putty doesn't seem to have a fluent grasp of English, it's difficult to make authoritative assertions about their intended meaning. If you want others to share your highly negative interpretation of the original statement, you'd do well to stop flapping your arms about our willful stupidity and start demonstrating a history of problems from this editor. Evidence is a must when making such extreme claims. I will take no pains to defend Putty's rather silly reaction to all of this -- really, an apology and/or explanation would have done more to calm things down. – Luna Santin (talk) 05:46, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

:::The fact that one's religion would be mentioned in a hostile tone with regard to any edits is completely wrong and unacceptable. The fact that you are watering this down is troubling. The fact that you think "Misplaced Pages is not only for Jews" is somehow AGF is absurd. The fact that you just rationalized is concerning. I think I'll start mentioning everyone's religion when I revert their edits hastily from now on, since that is acceptable here. --Einsteindonut (talk) 07:50, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

It has been said tens of times that it is NOT acceptable. The user has been warned and if he tries it again he'd get blocked. Who said it is acceptable? Really, don't think about starting mentioning everyone's religion when editing. -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 08:04, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I asked you to stop hand waving and start posting evidence to support your claims. Response? More hand waving, now in bold. Very charming. My point wasn't "Putty attacked your religion and that's okay" but rather "I'm not convinced Putty attacked your religion." A temper tantrum does not convince me I'm wrong. Illustrating a history of problematic statements would be more useful, in that regard. If Putty continues to make problematic statements, we can cross that bridge; for now, it's not clear what admin action is needed. – Luna Santin (talk) 08:36, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about that. I was actually just summing everything up in bold. --Einsteindonut (talk) 13:58, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Can you put it behind you?

Einsteindonut, despite Puttyschool's offensive comment, I think it's clear that you're not going to get what you want: an apology or any sort of disciplinary action against Puttyschool. Despite what you've endured over the past 24 hours, please try to calm down. If you can, try to put this incident behind you — because it doesn't seem like anything is going to happen here — and get on with the business of improving the encyclopedia. Lord knows it needs improving. — ] (] · ]) 22:02, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Look Malik, about my comment, I apologize as it can be a misunderstanding comment, but I did not mean by JpediA the JewishPedia as he was trying to prove, and JPediA is not an anti-semantic word, and as you can remember I was calling you and other Jews editor to solve conflict issues, and I was working with you and Oblear and all editors without any barriers. But also check his comments, how may offensive comments me and other editors received from him from the day this article is created in WikiPediA, only as he don’t like what we did, so we must put a limit, what he don’t like we also don’t like, especially most of us don’t have COI« PuTTY 22:33, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not interested in prolonging this discussion any further. Thank you. — ] (] · ]) 22:35, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Very calm actually. However, if no apology? Then I'm not putting it behind me. I am improving Misplaced Pages (in my own mind at least.) Who am I bothering here? No one is forced to read any of this. I want it to be known that I make a big deal out anti-semitic comments combined with efforts by people to revert my editing decisions I made after fully discussing them in "talk" without their collaboration or input with regard to anything I discussed as to why I was making the change to the article. This isn't just about the comment. It is the entire context (from Putty's first comments when the article was first nominated for deletion) - to his constant trying to take out important and accurate, well-thought out and discussed edits because of his own cultural conflict of interest and his own personal problem with the organization.--Einsteindonut (talk) 22:37, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I finished my tea, seems you don't like tea, all of us are improving WikipediA, can anyone comment on this« PuTTY 23:06, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm more of a coffee person (who's waiting for an apology.)--Einsteindonut (talk) 23:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Both Einsteindonut and Puttyschool really need to take a break from Wiki. At this point, both have made extremely offensive comments to each other, and which are therefore offensive to other Jews and Egyptians. Personally, I think the JPedia comment is anti-semitic, but I see no history of Putty posting anti-semitic POV elsewhere on Wiki. I have a hard time taking the AGF road though given his defense of stating it is not anti-semitic, which is no defense at all. I honestly do not think Putty understands why it is anti-semitic (he is not alone), but it is. He has given a sort of half-hearted apology, and I wish both you guys would leave it at that. Sposer (talk) 01:05, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi Sposer, I think I must also apologize “for the poor choice of the term”, According to my discussions with Michael Safyan I found that if the term “might give offense…” to at least one editor, then it is wrong to use it. Sorry next time I will take care about every “J”.« PuTTY 20:41, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Resolutions?

I've personally given up on the Jewish Internet Defense Force article as it's too much of a battleground with baiting and conjecture well after everyone has been cautioned about such issues. The article is under Arbcom restriction yet the personalizing seems to not let up. I'm also uncomfortable with the original research to out anyone associated with the group - digging through Facebook and posting on wikipedia seems like a terrible idea when these people have death threats against them - to me that's a WP:BLP issue.

I would support full protection on the article - it's largely stable despite the ongoing quibbling - and possibly semi on the talk if trolling is also an issue. Banjeboi 23:54, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't see any BLP issues when (a) all the people involved use pseudonyms and (b) they've published the "names" themselves. — ] (] · ]) 00:05, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not convinced they are all pseudonyms - and just why are we diving into that original research on wikipedia anyway? - and, though I've not spent much time on Facebook, unsure they have really "published" this list. Two references were used to name David Appletree, do we have a RS that that is a pseudonym? If so we should state it, if not I wonder, given the death threats, if we should remove it. Banjeboi 00:42, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

The crux of the matter and ways to resolutions

Let's see and clear up this mess:

Notes: Arab-Israeli conflict-related articles are under ArbCom restrictions.

On-wiki problems:

a) There's a total lack of AGF. Users from both sides of the fence still need to make big efforts to AGF and work together in peace. I applaud and encourage though user:Aharon42 and other people's efforts to make that happen.

b) Someone (IP) made this very nasty anti-semitic edit. The problem is that this user denies being behind those edits. 2 admins have investigated the issue.

Update: User is blocked for 2 weeks after some evidence was presented below.

c) Someone made this unaccaptable remark. That is totally uncivil and rude and should not happen again under any circumstance. If this happens again a block would be in order. Aharon49 has asked me to give my views on this and why I didn't consider this remark as anti-semitic. There's a big difference between attacking someone by saying "you are a dirty X" and "this is not Xpedia". It is still a gray area and the only way we'd know if it was really meant to be anti-semitic is to check the history of the contributions of the user who made the comment. We can still AGF until we get sure about that. So far, no indication of such a tendency has been noted.

d) Sockpuppetry has not been abusive as discussed above. Also, there are a few sleeper accounts belonging to one established user. I am waiting for some answers and explanations from some involved parties before taking action. I've made some checks and that covered a few accounts concerning parties from both sides of the dispute. My fellow checkusers can review that or verify the logs if needed.

e) Some editors have gone so far and got the names of some alleged JIDF people. This needs to stop (it is a precedent AFAIK). I suggest all names be oversighted (though the fact i am a member of the ArbCom, I have no oversighting tools). If this happens again blocks would be in order. We must respect the privacy of everyone as it is sacred.

Off-wiki problems brought here:

a) JIDF has tried to out and violate the privacy of Misplaced Pages editor user:CJCurrie. It says " currently updated for the time being, just because we feel like being nice....." I hope reasonable people at JIDF refrain from doing that. JIDF people must understand that Misplaced Pages editors are humans and outing them in such a shameful way instead of addressing the real issues or enter in a sincere dialog with our editors is not a positive thing.

b) It seems that JIDF is a bit obsessed with Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages has been faced with a somehow similar situation (see the CAMERA ArbCom case. Please read one of the important principles laid out by the ArbCom... "the purpose of Misplaced Pages is to create a high-quality, free-content encyclopedia in an atmosphere of camaraderie and mutual respect among contributors. The use of the site for other purposes, such as advocacy or propaganda, furtherance of outside conflicts, publishing or promoting original research, and political or ideological struggle, is prohibited.") It is for the best of everyone involved that this stops. Misplaced Pages is open to everyone and there's no need to push that hard to the limits.

c) The subject of the article (JIDF) promotes "some weird stuff" (check the link at the khaki/yellow box at the left column). This is not "defending" as in 'jiDf' but "attacking". JIDF sympathizers must think about balance and mutual respect before accusing others of "anti-semitism." JIDF website links to thereligionofpeace.com (tRoP). tRoP titles include nasty and crappy stuff such as "California Muslims Angered They Can't Incite Murder of Jews..." (I say: all California muslims?), "Why are Muslims Powerless? Short answer - too much religion, not enough education. Muhammad warned Muslims against pursuing "knowledge that benefits not" and they've been following his advice ever since..." (No comment), etc. Attacking a whole religion because of some bad terrorists is nonsense and I'd urge JIDF sympathizing editors to be aware of the fact that this creates a very bad atmosphere over here. Nobody is innocent. Hatred and nonsense comes from all sides (not necessarily one).

So any resolution would depend on the willingness of involved people from both sides to address the above points and reconsider their actions. -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 06:39, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Fayssal, thank you for laying out the issues. Your "on-wiki" points are nearly perfect, except for the history of Putty's comments and editing with regard to the JIDF article. The second half of your thinking with regard to "off wiki" stuff is problematic. It seems outside the scope of my original complaint, and I believe "on Wiki" rules do not apply to to off-wiki content. Regarding CJCurrie and the JIDF post about him he actually outed himself on Misplaced Pages itself. The JIDF didn't "out him," the letter someone sent to the JIDF officially outted him after the JIDF indicated that they know who he is through the information he had posted on Misplaced Pages itself. I believe if certain Misplaced Pages editors are going to mass vandalize the project in a serious and vindictive manner, and face no sanctions from ArbsCom, then things can happen off-Wiki (as we see in this case.) In other words, "on wiki" neglect of certain issues can bring about "off wiki" consequences. Had the situation been dealt with quickly and fairly, then perhaps the JIDF would not have gotten involved. I believe (since you are bringing it up) that perhaps an ArbsCom case should still be considered for CJCurrie's questionable edits and removal of all "zionism on the web" links (for the most part) on Misplaced Pages. It was vandalism pure and simple in response to Oboler's exposure of the Electronic Intifada problem, and CJCurrie got away with it, which I feel is indicative of other underlying problems within the Misplaced Pages project itself. The entire case regarding CJCurrie is laid out on the JIDF site is very telling. All of your points in the "off wiki B" section seem to be completely disregarded by editors like CJCurrie, as a matter of fact. Your "C" Point regarding "off wiki" content seems completely out-of-place and irrelevant. While you might have certain opinions about the JIDF site and the content they provide (which is completely unrelated to Misplaced Pages), it is still just that, completely unrelated to Misplaced Pages. Again, thank you for laying out the issues in a clear and concise manner. In summation, I believe your "on wiki" assessment is nearly perfect, though much of your "off wiki" assessment is "way off" and should be outside the scope of Misplaced Pages ArbsCom considerations.--Einsteindonut (talk) 08:29, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Now that you agree with my on-wiki points, could you please gently remove the "Misplaced Pages = Where the antisemites an anti-Israel POV pushers roam free. Where Holocaust denial and revisionism are given nice platforms, anyway" and "by all means, please overwhelm me with your rules and wisdom, because this system is clearly working to create great atmosphere for Jew hatred, demonization of Israel and the rationalization of Islamic terrorism" from your userpage? That would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance. -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 09:49, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Fayssal, I'm not sure that the statements on my user page tie into your "on Wiki" points which were concerning one isolated incident as opposed to system-wide problems. However, some of your "off Wiki" points tie into some of those statements (especially with regard to rationalization of Islamic terrorism..) In any event, once a full scale (if there is such a thing) ArbsCom case with regard to the problems of CJCurrie happens and sanctions against him are implemented, I will reconsider my personal views about WP, until then, I can only go by what I have learned about WP and what I have experienced in my short time here. --Einsteindonut (talk) 09:59, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Einsteindonut. We cannot be a newbie for the rest of our lives. We cannot have one classroom for every editor. My request has been gentle and is part of the AGF stuff above. You are not in a position to set conditions on what we have to do and not. If you want to discuss CJCurrie stuff, I'll suggest you file an ArbCom case. For now, your userpage statements are not appropriate at all and go against our AGF guideline and it is clear soapboxing as explained to you above. The question of userpages was a bit complicated years ago and it is considered as something clear nowadays. I hope you take this as a serious request. You may not like it but we are not bargaining here. If you have substantive evidence to back up your claims please present it to the ArbCom. If not, defamatory content must be removed. People have asked you gently. If nothing changes, people get warned. If the problem persists people get blocked. If that doesn't help people get banned. -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 10:55, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes Fayssal, this user DOES deny being behind those two edits. As far as I know I'm not blocked and nobody but you seems to be claiming it was me, so can you please leave me out of this absurd drama? My edit history speaks for itself. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 08:09, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Have I said the opposite? Have I accused you? I have the total right to have questions as other admins had. I've done the checks myself and all what I've done here is report what happened alongside other 8 points mentioned above. And yes, people are not blind to see that your edit history speaks for itself. -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 08:24, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood you. All I know is that you've mentioned me here twice and now I'm asking you nicely to please leave me out of it entirely. I'm here to write an encyclopedia and I want no part of drahmaz. Thank you. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 08:35, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, you have made some edits to the JIDF article which weren't all that Kosher. I find it extremely troubling that you or "someone who happens to be within your ip range" vandalized my user page and the JIDF article with swastikas, which put me on the defense from the onset. It is my hope that WIkipedia will fully investigate the situation in order to make sure that "it wasn't you" as I personally find it TOO COINCIDENTAL. Therefore, I'm happy that your name is being discussed here so that we may get to the truth of the matter. --Einsteindonut (talk) 08:59, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Earlier today I listed that IP at Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/IP check. If any further discussion of NoC or the IP is needed, it may be worth another subthread. I may have more comment on FayssalF's substantive post at a later time. – Luna Santin (talk) 09:10, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Just an FYI, combined with the fact that an IP address attributed to him was responsible for vandalism in the form of multiple swastikas on my user page and JIDF article, the following edits to the JIDF article are the reasons why I feel Nobody of Consequence is highly suspect:

Added "totally disputed tag" from the very beginning

Continued to litter the article with deletion tags

Oboler rightly calls him out on his vandalism through marking for deletion tags and he responds

All that being said, what can be learned here? Both "NobodyofConsequence" and Puttyschool had issues with the existence of this article from the onset. I believe neither one of them got their way as the article still exists, so they manifested their frustration in other ways. It's very telling when people demand that something be deleted so many times and then we have the opportunity to watch their subsequent edits to that article---especially when, by all indications, anti-semitism begins to seep out as it has (in the form of swastikas and "jpedia" comments combined with "the JPost is just for Jews" etc.

Don't get upset with the Jews who understand how these things work, but this is PRECISELY how it works, both on Misplaced Pages and throughout history a) People don't like Jews b) People would rather that Jews wouldn't exist c) Because Jews exist, that upsets people d) Anti-semitism rears its ugly head.

By the same token, an article about a Jewish organization which fights anti-semitism is bound to attract all sorts of clever and not so clever anti-semites who will do everything in their power to try to deny and/or mask their inherent hatred of the Jew, and especially of Jewish organizations which know how to detect it and fight back.

Considering Jewish history and the problems online it really shouldn't be that difficult for people to see how much everyone hates the Jew here. The fact that everyone is pretending to not see it is insane. If this entire episode was about african americans or homosexuals, then very strict sanctions would certainly apply, since that double standard happens in real life too. All WP is showing here is that it is a pure reflection of reality. If anything, I appreciate the opportunity as it allows me to understand these issues and patterns even better. --Einsteindonut (talk) 10:33, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the links. I have no single doubt now. User is blocked for a 2 weeks. The rest is nonsense (referring to your a, b, c, and d points) and you better stop it for once now that the user is blocked. You also better keep that fight off-wiki. -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 10:55, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Fayssal, I appreciate the action you took. What determines the length of time? Seems to me anyone that would vandalize pages with swastikas should be banned forever, but I admit I don't know what determines these things. Promotion of Nazism (ie. Murder/Genocide, etc) is "kinda a big deal." I'm sorry if you think my points are "nonsense." Your telling me to keep that fight "off Wiki" seems a bit odd, considering you just helped me to acknowledge it and fight it. Anti-semitism, the promotion of murder, genocide, Nazism, etc., has no place on Misplaced Pages. My "fight,"if anything, ties right into WP's own rules of civility. I have just been using different language since I am new here. However, I do think it is important to call things for what they are, and let me be very clear, anytime I am talking about "anti-semitism" on Misplaced Pages, I am, in WP terms, talking about INCIVILITY. That being said, I urge people to do a "find and replace" in their minds in order to understand what I am saying. I would hope that fighting incivility and promoting civility would be welcome here. Again, thank you for taking action. I wasn't sure if providing links and everything was somehow against the rules until someone said that is how cases are explained. Of course, someone is likely to revert the block, as they did in Ashley Kennedy's case for her continued edit warring. These people who feel so strongly about the JIDF article feel that way for reasons, that's all I'm saying. Those reasons are not always so civil and taken in the context of their feelings about completely uncivilized political movements and the rationalization of those movements' actions, as well as peoples' edits regarding Holocaust denial and revisionism and their various supporters and proponents, etc. It's extremely telling. Most people don't just get on Misplaced Pages to write/contribute to articles about things in which they do not feel passionately about. In fact, that is the whole reason why I got on here and I'm sure if there was a poll, that would be true for everyone. Not everyone can be passionate about everything, but I don't think it is a coincidence that the same people would flock to the same articles with regard to certain topics in which they are passionate. In any event, that is how I come to my POV about certain motivations. I take the entire context of everything, not just seemingly isolated incidents. Nothing is a coincidence in my world, and I do not throw around any allegations just for the sake of throwing them around, and I always do AGF in the beginning actually. So when it seems like I do not, one can assume that I have good reason for that. I admit that sometimes I do not explain how I arrived at "C" without explaining A and B. However, please be advised that all of my conclusions will always have the facts to prove them. I don't do things just for the sake of doing them. I try to make valid points. Again, thank you for seeing my point, though I wish for him to be banned forever from Misplaced Pages. Anyone who promotes Nazism in my mind is the scum of the earth and deserves a serious reaction. In fact, well, I'll just keep that to myself since people can't make threats here. --Einsteindonut (talk) 11:34, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

What determines the length of time? That depends on many factors and it is called admins' discretion. Fellow admins can review the duration and the block itself and make comments here or on my talk page. Block durations are not a problem. They can be tweaked if needed or if the initial one is not appropriate.

I said that You also better keep that fight off-wiki. It is probably my english though I don't think so. For me it means that you, in your quality of an editor, better keep Misplaced Pages free of fights (referring to "Jewish organization which fights...")

I wasn't sure if providing links and everything was somehow against the rules until someone said that is how cases are explained. Now you know that we don't make empty claims here. Only differences and evidences are accepted. That is to say that if you keep on accusing people without proof, you'd find yourself being blocked.

Of course, someone is likely to revert the block. Please AGF. This is the last time I'll be asking you this.

please be advised that all of my conclusions will always come with the facts to prove them. So far, you could only prove one (after this whole lenghty thread).

I wish for him to be banned forever from Misplaced Pages. If repeated, of course yes.

Anyone who promotes Nazism in my mind is the scum of the earth and deserves a serious reaction. As far as everybody is concerned here, nobody promoted Nazism. That was not a promotion, it was a nasty personal anti-semitic edit.

Now, Einsteindonut, have you read my last message regarding your userpage above? -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 12:09, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for all the info. Yes I have read it, can you please explain why I cannot leave it there? I'm sure it will change eventually, as I like to change things often, but if it doesn't break any rules I'm not sure why I should be required to change it until I feel compelled to do so. This does not mean I don't appreciate what has been done. You just brought up the CJCurrie case and I believe until that is revisited that I still have the same thoughts. I appreciate knowing that I can provide links and differences t o prove my points about certain things I find problematic. One area of disagreement, I'm surprised that you'd regard someone's multiple anti-semitic use of a Nazi symbol on wikipedia as not a promotion of Nazism. It was not just on my user page, but on an article for all to see as well (as well as the symbol of jihad.) In my mind, that's a clear promotion of Nazism and Jihad and not merely a personal attack, since it went on the article on the JIDF. --Einsteindonut (talk) 12:49, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, that is not a promotion of Nazism. Please read marketing promotions and advertising campaigns to understand why it is not. The offending user's aim was clearly to offend you and not to market and ideology or a product.

I'll tell you why your userpage is problematic:

• First, have you ever read Misplaced Pages:Userpage?
• Second, I first assumed that you came here to complain about some anti-semetic stuff and other uncivil comments. Now, it seems that you are shifting your focus and getting interested in user:CJCurrie. Have you ever interacted with him? Have you ever edited together? No. So? Why are you focusing on him??? What strikes me is the fact that JIDF has been accusing this same user for a lot of things and that included posting an alleged picture of him. Now, that the offender is blocked for the anti-semitic remarks, what is the reason for keeping those statements up there? There's only one thing I can explain that; that you are here to pursue an agenda which can be targetting CJCurrie and accusing some other editors who don't share your POV. That is why your page is just soapboaxing and I do not see any reason why keep accusing other editors there. If you got problems with editors, you have to follow the dispute resolution process instead. If that fails then you have the ArbCom. Does this makes sense to you? -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 13:29, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

your first point, i'll check it out. however, my point is that some of his post of a swastika and the jihadist flag on the JIDF article, had nothing to do with "me" per se. it was an attack against a wikipedia article and the organization in which the article was about. two separate incidents. one at me. another at the JIDF article, for the casual readers to see. have i ever read the WP userpage rules? i think i skimmed them. if there's something specifically i should know, let me know. lots of reading. have i ever interacted with CJCurrie? Yes, absolutely. Have we ever edited together? Yes, absolutely. On the JIDF article. When I saw his name and tried to edit with him and interact with him, I was reminded instantly of what I had read from ZOTW regarding his efforts to delete those links and did not think it was a "coincidence." I understand what you told me, but will have to learn the processes. Allow me to ask you this flat out---is there anything on my user page which clearly breaks any WP rules? If so, I will take it down, but I would like to know precisely why. I see lots of things on many user pages. For example, I have seen many people who have "i am for the right of the return of Palestinians" in little user boxes. Is that not soap boxing? I certainly think if people can take such political stances on their user pages, that I should be able to express some of the issues I have found with regard to Misplaced Pages? Then again, if I am clearly doing something against policy, then please clearly express it and help extract it from any articles explaining those policies. If not, then I think it's just your personal opinion that you don't like what is on my user page. Which is fine, but I don't see why I'd have to remove it so long as it is not breaking any rules. In any event, I have made some minor changes to some of the text which might be a bit better. I believe Dr. Oboler had already pursued the problems with CJCurrie to no avail. I personally didn't like CJCurrie's demeanor nor his edits w/ regard to the JIDF piece. That, plus all of the edits outlined by the JIDF are highly suspect of POV pushing, combined w/ the fact that he removed around 200 ZOTW links after the electronic intifada story broke, and i think you can see some problems. I don't think I'm accusing anyone of anything in particular on my page. I have some links that people can choose to read, or not. Again, I'll be happy to take stuff down if it is clearly against the rules and if I could get into some sort of trouble for it. I'll look into all those processes you mentioned. --Einsteindonut (talk) 14:16, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I hope Fayssal won't mind if I add a little instructive levity here about what Wiki is about. Apropos Einsteindonut's loose remark that

'Most people don't just get on Misplaced Pages to write/contribute to articles about things in which they do not feel passionately about

I am now straining the bean through a psychotic sieve as I try to imagine what passion drives those thousands of marvellous editors who contribute to or have written good articles on digamma, Brazilian copperfish, Lemba, Dot matrix printer, Theme, Escherichia coli, or Giuseppe Piazzi. Does one really need to be passionate about the Dujiangyan Irrigation System, Hemorrhoids, or Phlebitis to write about them? The point is, we are in here to contribute material of substance to over two million articles, and not wage cultural wars by waving the flags of political correctness everywhere, especially at imagined dust under invisible rugs Nishidani (talk) 12:34, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I should also say that it might not require "passion" per se, but knowledge on something, and if not particular topics, then people have a passion for editing/writing in general and that is why they are here. Can you please explain what you mean by "straining the bean through a psychotic sieve?" It seems with the constant reminders of my own civility and to AGF and all the other rules that they very much are "waves of PC flags" though I am not sure what exactly you consider to be "imagined dust under invisible rugs" and who it is you think is waving flags of PC at them exactly. A veiled personal attack is still a personal attack. Or perhaps I'm just imagining things again. If there wasn't something under that rug, then someone wouldn't be blocked currently. --Einsteindonut (talk) 12:59, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

We're in here to write articles, not conduct political battles, or dob in one editor after another (what is the count in here now on both sides, including below?) for administrative action or off-site criticism. Misplaced Pages has a very strong record for acting promptly and vigorously against any variety of racism, including antisemitism. Most editors know how to deal with it, We do not need specialist witch-hunters. Just as we do not need mirroring comments likening our collective and collegial work to the works of Dr. Goebbels, or assumptions that most non Jewish people are anti-Semitic. That itself is as troubling a quasi-racist quip as anything you yourself have adduced in here to support your campaign. In normal man's language it means, 'if you are not Jewish, you have a very high probability of being someone who hates Jews': most people in here, under that assumption, qualify in your stated view as antisemites, which is highly offensive to the entire community. When I noted it, I did not run to administration. As has been the case with many such statements, one ignores it. Enough of this. One establishes a reputation here by content-edits of quality, not by the volume of one's comments on other editors. This goes for Puttyschool as well.Nishidani (talk) 13:22, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

"We're in here to write articles" - that's funny, I thought you don't do that anymore? - where you say, "I've retired from editing wiki" Anyway, if you have proof of WP strong record on dealing with anti-semitism, I'd like to see. Regarding your with-hunter remark, I don't appreciate the personal attack. Also, regarding this comment I made, I'm surprised that you'd bring this up after you and I discussed it at great length and I fully explained why I said that and what I meant. Regarding reputation, I've never fared well among those who wish to ignore certain things. I'm not here to win a popularity contest obviously. If I was to do that, I'd know exactly what to do, but I'm not one to pretend that I don't have a POV on something and I'm not one to ignore problems or point out WP rules every two seconds. I'm just here doing my thing. I believe I have made some decent contributions, which are then batted down by people with the opposite POV. My interest are the I-P conflict and Jewish issues. It is not my fault that I am interested in working on things which have a high propensity toward some degree of controversy. Enough people didn't ignore some of my comments and actions (including CJCurrie and others), so I'm just learning how to kvetch from everyone else. Sorry if that bothers you for some reason. By the way, since you claim to be so keen on ignoring the things that bother people (or at least this is the advice you give) why don't you hone your own advice and ignore me and my complaints and comments and not call attention to them on your own talk page and on this board? Seems a bit hypocritical if you ask me, but have I asked you to remove anything? Have I asked you to stop? Nope! I say bring it on! This is fun. If people don't like it, as you said, "ignore it!"--Einsteindonut (talk) 14:27, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

If you find my truthful comment funny, I'm glad I've improved your day. To 'edit' means to contribute to texts, which I no longer do, as opposed to dropping a word or two of advice on talk pages to lower conflict and assist potentially good editors who have a problem or two, to get beyond their 'passions' and just write to the text with quality sources. This is an indirect way of assisting wiki in the drafting of articles, without editing. If this is 'hypocrisy' of the kind that you think 'fun', by all means, be my guest and laugh away. Nishidani (talk) 15:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

FayssalF, Please check if this account J Hoffer (talk · contribs) is it another sock-puppets.
Einsteindonut, I don't know how you can find time to write all of this, it needs a lot of time from me to read all what you wrote, you will finish WikipediA papers, I’ll appreciate if you can provide a Summary « PuTTY 13:04, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Two quick comments:

• Contrary to Einsteindonut's assertion, I have not "outed" myself on Misplaced Pages. I did not contact the JIDF after they allegedly "outed" me on their site, nor did I encourage anyone to do so on my behalf. I don't care if people wish to criticize my edits (or speculate on my identity in private), but I do not take kindly to defamation, intimidation and harrassment.
• I've already explained my actions re: Oboler and ZOTW. If you believe I acted improperly, you may register a complaint in the appropriate forum. Posting what you allege to be my picture on your website is unlikely to benefit your case, nor that of the party you wish to assist. CJCurrie (talk) 17:34, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

More socks discovered

Einsteindonut (talk · contribs) == J Hoffer (talk · contribs) == Saxophonemn (talk · contribs) (the latter one using proxies).

While checking I've discovered some relatively unrelated weird and odd sockpuppeting but not related to Einsteindonut. I'll be discussing this with fellow CUers. -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 14:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

if it's not related to me why do you have me with the "=" signs of everyone else?--Einsteindonut (talk) 14:34, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I am referring to some other established accounts (people unrelated to this mess and totally unrelated to you). Checking your accounts led to the discovery of another mess (totally unrelated) which I'll be discussing with the ArbCom. -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 14:46, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

What is this Einsteindonut: a)you were talking with me in talk page as two (sometimes three) different persons. b)you were reverting the edits using your long list of different accounts in order to go around the 3RR. c)What about your vote stacking, you put seven votes in each AFD. d)you are the only source of trouble from the time this article is created till now. f)in addition to your COI. Shame on you. Please delete this user from Misplaced Pages, and repeat all AFDs he voted on« PuTTY 15:34, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

It is time for you to change the way you act here. I hope this is clear. -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 16:18, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I'll have to eat my words about the sockpuppetry not being deliberate. However I still think you need to tone your rhetoric down. If you document the voting by sockpuppets and they would be enought to swing things, you might be able to open a closure review.--Peter cohen (talk) 15:42, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

• For the record, Einsteindonut (talk · contribs) has been blocked for a week; several unblock requests have been lodged and declined. see hsi userpage and its history for details. Tony Fox (arf!) 20:10, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Compared with user Nobody of Consequence (talk · contribs) whose account is blocked for two weeks (from my POV for un-faire reason based on Einsteindonut WP:OR and long talks, but without following the complete history of the article), which leads to losing a very remarkable editor from WikipediA an editor without any WP:COI, is one week for Einsteindonut (talk · contribs) enough???
Sorry FayssalF, Every one here has the right to express his POV« PuTTY 15:57, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Einsteindonut has never been blocked for wp:OR. He is blocked for sockpuppetry.

Sorry for misunderstanding, What I mean is that "Nobody of Consequence" was blocked based on Einsteindonut unverified long writes/talks (hundreds of his line are listed above) and Einsteindonut talks are like WP:OR.« PuTTY 12:55, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Regarding user:Nobody of Consequence. Unfair is your baseless POV and you are free to express it though I am sure it will stop very soon (in a few minutes). To know further about that, please meet me on AN where there is a discussion involving this.

And please complete this...Every one here has the right to express his POV... Does it stop there or can we include something like ...as long as they remain CIVIL and calm? -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 03:19, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

It is an open sentence anyone is free to append another sentence to it, but yours is good :)« PuTTY 12:56, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Agreed with Fayssal. I was originally against the block on NoC as I had no idea why it had been enacted, but once explained clearly, I agreed with it. PuTTY, I would strongly advise that being right on a particular dispute (re Einsteindonut) and the fact your opponent is a sockpuppeteer does not make you immune to the rules and norms that apply here. Civility and no personal attacks have the status of policy here, and this isn't a game of sides where one wins and the other loses, it's a collaborative and cooperative effort. Orderinchaos 12:15, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Orderinchaos, to your knowledge, I joined Misplaced Pages just for fun as I like this site, and I did not come here to play games or to support a case or to join a group of editors or friends, or in order to win or my side win or any of the things I heard here..... what I’m saying is very simple, NoF account is closed for 2 weeks in less than 20min after EsT claims, (adding the tags by NoF was not wrong, check AFD results), and EsT account is closed for 1 week (check his rude and offensive words, socks+.. and COI), so I found that 2 weeks is UNFAIRE compared to the 1 week, and I think this was the reason why NoF(A professional editor) left Misplaced Pages and requested to vanish, I’m not asking why his account is blocked, I’m asking why this one took 2 weeks Punishment and the other only one week« PuTTY 13:26, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Believe it or not, I can totally understand where you're coming from. I've dealt with more than a few tendentious editors in my time. And yes, decisions can be inconsistent with each other. We have 1,500+ admins (I'm probably way out of date with my figures, it may well be much more now) and they're not always going to agree. Such decisions may not be the final word. If this person came back and started doing the same things as before, it'd be fairly certain he would be blocked for a longer period, perhaps even indefinitely if it was serious enough. The reason is that we could then say "he was blocked for it before, he knows it's unacceptable, it's been discussed by the community, and now he is continuing so clearly the threat of disruption still exists." We don't just go around banning or blocking people as punishment, we think, "this person's actions are disrupting the encyclopaedia, if we take this action, will it help or hinder our efforts to reduce that disruption?" I also don't think pushing this particular line will help your case, and you need to think about it from the point of view that the people you're talking to and dealing with this time may well be dealing with any future case and you want to, as far as possible, not piss them off and keep them onside. I can tell you right now that the biggest killer of AN/I reports, apart from the fact few admins check this place because it's usually full of drama, is when it appears to be a two-way struggle and we can't identify who is behaving worse. That usually results in no action, or action against the wrong party. Orderinchaos 15:04, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Despite your meaning of pushing my case, I’m not helping my case, I want to know how things are going, but comments like mine and other editors (like me) will force the 1500+ admins to normalize in between them, other than this thanks for the information which is very good.« PuTTY 15:23, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Based on the disgraceful and checkuser-proven trolling IP edits. See the section here. Everything is resolved. Brilliantine (talk) 13:36, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

OK, but still 2 to 1 is unfair, check all comments by EsT+Socks+.. then compare with what NoC posted on EsT page. In addition the punishments was before this detailed long investigation, we can trace edits date and time.« PuTTY 15:05, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Has User:J Hoffer atually been blocked? I can't see it in the logs. I also note that they haven't been categorised as socks like the other accounts--Peter cohen (talk) 17:04, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Yup. HalfShadow 17:06, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I must be looking in the wrong way. Turning to the Checkuser board, I'm confised about this user's status.--Peter cohen (talk) 17:57, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Peter, Einsteindonut has never denied J Hoffer being his sock. Confirmed 100%. -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 03:19, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Just to clarify that you did not mean we have to collect socks punishments plus the one week.« PuTTY 18:47, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Blocks are not punishments, nor are they intended to be. They protect the encyclopaedia from damage. Orderinchaos 12:16, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, the amount of pleasure Puttyschool seems to be taking from this is kind of sick. HalfShadow 16:59, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Half Shadow, “it is not the amount of pleasure”, GOOD Wekipediana are trying to show all facts and focus on all points and fine details in order to enhance Misplaced Pages, so when this thread is closed, then it is closed forever not a HALF close!« PuTTY 19:53, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's pleasure so much as a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of blocks and how we regard editors, which is fairly common amongst new editors who are still adjusting to our collaborative, task-centred environment (blogs, Facebook and forums work very very differently - I've been mod at a few). I can see what they are trying to achieve, and I can understand the reasons, but I think that the way they are going about it is counterproductive (not helped possibly by a language barrier, which makes them sound more aggressive than they actually are). Furthermore, it risks clouding the air and confusing admins who have just arrived on the scene as to who or what is going on, and reducing the number of those wishing to get involved, therefore decreasing the probability it will be dealt with appropriately. (If anyone is trying to figure it out, looking at Fayssal's comments in this thread is probably the most useful indication.) Orderinchaos 09:44, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Orderinchaos, I think when Fayssal and You explained, a lot of things are changed, but before explanations it was very clear that 2:1 is ???« PuTTY 10:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

User page as NPA problem?

Would an uninvolved admin please look at the user page of the blocked editor? As I think fayssal mentioned far up the thread, this user page text appears to violate NPA. If so, since the editor is blocked for a week, could the unacceptable text be removed? Thanks, HG | Talk 15:34, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Text deleted. I mentioned earlier in the topic that it seemed to be soapboxing, but nobody else has done anything so I'm being bold. HalfShadow 16:39, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

This issue (among others) is being dealt with by the ArbCom. -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 03:22, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

This may not be worth full-scale arbitration. There's really not much happening in article space that affects the encyclopedia. Most of the problems indicate drama to attract attention, on and off wiki. There's apparently been a multi-year flame war on Facebook on this subject, possibly involving some of the same individuals. If we ignore them, maybe they'll go play somewhere else. In other words, don't feed the trolls. Thanks. --John Nagle (talk) 20:27, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Not sure that it actually needs arbitration. I remember when Prester John had similar problems over his anti-Islam stuff and in the end he got blocked indefinitely by an administrator after a 1- and 3-month block failed to modify his behaviour. If someone is causing disruption and keeping their account open is going to continue to cause disruption, and that can be demonstrated to neutral observers, then there's a case for it IMO. Orderinchaos 09:37, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Vandalizing of Arjun MBT pages

The user By78 is vandalizing the Arjun MBT pages. This is supported by the Admin Jauerback. Admins Jauerback has misused his Administrative powers earlier as well and went to the extend of blocking me to support vandalization of Arjun page with inaccurate information. He has repeated the mistake again. Request warning of By78 from vandalization of the Arjun MBT page and request the removal of Admin rights of Jauerback for acting in a very irresponsible manner and preventing me from contributing to Misplaced Pages (Arjun MBT pages) in a positive manner. Thank you.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 04:06, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I see an edit war but no vandalism.Geni 04:28, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Chanakya, Please assume that other editors are working in good faith on the encyclopedia and work to find a consensus talking with other editors on the article talk page. Your attempt to bring this here for administrator intervention is inappropriate or at the very least extremely premature. You need to discuss this constructively and in good faith on your own part on the talk page. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 07:40, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

How can preventing a person from editing (me) can be considered a good action. I am not against someone editing the articles by providing sources. But what if he removes my edit completely. I had edited the articles by providing valid sources. Someone (By78) blanks those edits the Admin (Jauerback) comes and supports it. Is that not a violation of Wiki basic right or edition of the article by every person by providing valid sources. How can Wiki admins allow blanking of those good edits. No reason is given expect that he disagrees with me. On what? No one knows. Just disagree. No source provided to prove his point. This kind of behavior is unacceptable. I had provided detailed explanation. Admins says he is least bothered about the content. Then why is he the Admin. Revoke his Admin rights.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 16:09, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Have you tried asking them why they ar reverting you?Geni 17:32, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Chanakyathegreat, as I've tried explaining to you on your talk page and on the talk page of the article, I have no position on what the content of the article is other than it remain neutral and properly sourced. In the past, you have attempted to add content from unreliable sources that are outdated from which you tend to pull out your own opinion from. Your "attempts" to discuss the changes on the talk page have been solely to accuse others of vandalizing your work and to repeat the same poor reasoning on why your content should be included. Then, without ANY consensus, you make the changes to the article. Before you add any content to that article, you need to gain consensus to do so, because you obviously can't seem to do so without pushing your own POV into every sentence that you write. So, let's summarize what you need to do: 1. Discuss on the talk page without making vandalism accusations. 2. Gain consensus on the content, wording, and sources. 3. Add to article. 4. Rinse, repeat. Fairly simple, huh? Jauerback/_dude. 19:07, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you might like to see WP:COOL? —La Pianista 19:18, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

A block for civility violations or repeated NPOV violations is not a cool-down block. But I see no mention of blocking here. Am I missing something? Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 04:01, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Jauerback, you still is not acting as a responsible administrator. Absolutely agree that the article must be nuetral and the Admin must make sure that it is neutral. What you are doing is just the opposite. You are supporting someone who reverses my edits. Those edits I made was by providing valid sources and remember that this time I had not even removed any links or sources added by By78. I had tried to include the real issues with valid sources and explained the same in the talk page as well. Now why are you reverting my good edits.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 04:26, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Do you intentionally ignore everything that is said to you? Jauerback/_dude. 15:03, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I challenge you to point out a single recent edit done by anyone that I had removed or blanked like By78 is doing. What I had done is provided more information and links. What I am complaining is that these edits with links are being blanked by By78. The reason in plain explanation is hatred. Jauerback, If you can provide proof of me doing anything against Wiki rules, I will quit editing the Arjun MBT pages, If you cannot prove it I suggest you quit being an Administrator. Are you ready to take the challenge. This challenge is not just to Jauerback, anyone who thinks that I am wrong in this issue can take up this challenge.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 15:27, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

It's a waste of time to list the occasions where Chanakyathegreat pushed his POV by reverting other people's edits because he has demonstrated an amazing capacity to ignore reason and facts. I don't try to use reason with my cat because she cannot reason as humans do. In Chanakyathegreat's case, I am convinced by now that when it comes rational thought, he distinctly lacks it. When faced with overwhelming evidence supporting a position he does not like, Chanakyathegreat will simply resort to making groundless accusations against other editors' integrity as opposed to focusing on debating the points in contention. The edit history for Arjun is for all to see. Chanakyathegreat doesn't have a leg to stand on. In fact, Chanakyathegreat has exhibited a pattern of POV pushing. For those who are interested, simply check out the discussions for "Great Power" and Chanakyathegreat's own talk page regarding this topic to see how he tried in vain to get India listed as a great power, only to be repeatedly rebuked by fellow editors for POV pushing. As for the Arjun article, also see its discussion page to see the extent of Chanakyathegreat's blatant POV pushing and lack of rational thinking capacity. The consensus on most of Arjun article's content was reached a while back, yet Chanakyathegreat stood alone in his stubborn refusal to acknowledge facts, despite his repeated claims of strictly adhering to truths. Chanakyathegreat, simply claiming to side with truths/facts does not make you stand on the side of truths/facts. You have to earn such accolades by action, and action is where you consistently failed to live up to your self-proclaimed reputation for factual integrity. It just goes on to prove how irrational you truly are that you have resorted to challenging people to "prove" the accusations of your POV pushing, seeing that the discussion pages and edit history for "Arjun" and "great power" are littered with the dirty laundries of your POV pushing. This is really sad, bro, really sad. By78 (talk) 01:27, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

You are trying to win over by accusing other rather than stick to the topic of why are you blanking good edits and why you should not be blocked for such an action. Now don't come up with more accusations against me. Answer this. Your point that it was the summer trial that the tank has problem has been debunked. Hopes you accept it and changes the article back to the version that I edited. Now please don't reply with more accusations against me you are like that, you are like this you.. Thank you. Chanakyathegreat (talk) 05:30, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Tip number one: No labeling anything as "hatred." That, in itself, is "hatred."

Tip number two: If this is the only reason for which you want to revoke Jauerback's admin rights, you still need a little more to go on.

Tip number three: If you would like to present your argument, I suggest you do it after some time off, perhaps after a nice walk in the park or a hot cup of tea. Then, come back.

Trust me, the way your argument stands, even if you are right, it is hard to believe if it comes from someone who might be so full of anger that his judgment is clouded. I am not saying that you do have clouded judgment; I am only suggesting that that is the perception you are giving to others, judging from the tone of your writing.

Rest, meditate, vacation... Just take your mind off it a moment then come back. —La Pianista 23:12, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

La Pianista, I can prove you wrong. By78 reverts and accuses the other contributer, just have a look at his contribution list. His recent contributions are attempt to put the negative versions about the Arjun MBT and also made an attempt to deliberately hide certain facts while editing the the Economy of India page. I agree that one is free to edit any page in Wiki but Why should one hide facts and try to put only the sad affairs. It is deliberate attempt believing that it is the right way to tarnish the image of one nation. Now can you disapprove the above and say that these things are not done because of hatred. If not then what else is it?

Regarding anger, I don't have it guys. I want the rules of Wiki to be upholded and the person given freedom to edit the pages by providing valid sources so that truth remain in Wiki pages. Also I request that the Vandalization like blanking pages need to be stopped immediately and the spreading of hatred, unnecessary accusations against a person is also stopped in Misplaced Pages.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 05:04, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I had provided proof for the summer trial being successful and the problem with the winter trials. I hope By78 will understand and change his opinion of the issues being from the summer trials. Hope that he revert the page back to the version that I had edited.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 05:19, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

By78 is vandalizing the Arjun MBT talk page as well. In the comparison chart the Arjun status is put as doubtful by him. The tank is in service with the Indian army 43rd armoured division. It's already inducted and the status must be active. I had even provided the source. He knows it well, but still has reverted the talk page. These are the reasons I say that By78 is doing these kinds of things deliberately and he need to persuaded by Admins from such kind of anti-Wiki actions so that his contributions are for the good of Misplaced Pages rather than such vandalization. Chanakyathegreat (talk) 05:24, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Detailed explanation has been provided on the content of the edits. Also the apprehension of By78 about the summer/winter trials has been explained to him. Do anyone like to know anything more about the edits or is there any question regarding the same. I will be editing the page and hopes that it will not be blanked. Any violation of accusation will be reported here to keep the discussion of Arjun MBT talk page clean. Thank you.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 08:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

There you go again. You should know that participation in Misplaced Pages is voluntary, provided that you adhere to a certain set of guidelines, which you are all too willing to ignore. You want to stay, but you are not willing to abide by the rules: I really do not have a solution for you. I think you should follow your own advice, which I directly quote below: "Misplaced Pages towards its demise The quality of articles is hit. Vandals are allowed to push their own version with a single source without realizing what is it. No constructive discussion takes place about the subject. Attempts are made to present an older, wrong western viewpoint trying to tarnish other views. Truth or reality is hidden under the guise of neutrality whereas none exits. The Admins not only abuse good contributers but helps Vandals or directly indulge in Vandalism and don't use their brain. Rules are brought out punish good contributers rather than punish the culprits, just like some oppressive regime. THERE IS NO FREEDOM IN WIKIPEDIA ONLY THE FREEDOM TO VANDALIZE PAGES. If this continues WIKIPEDIA IS DOOMED FOR EVER. I quit contributing to Misplaced Pages. Thank all for the cooperation. Chanakyathegreat (talk) 06:55, 8 August 2008 (UTC)" Your proposal sounds reasonable to me. By78 (talk) 03:04, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Jauerback, you have reverted it again. This is what By78 has to say."If you truly believe your content for Arjun is based on consensus, then I invite you to edit the Arjun article. Go ahead, be my guest. Don't stop editing the Arjun. Stand up for your views. Go! By78 (talk) 02:41, 9 September 2008 (UTC)"

It seem good behavior and how you came to the conclusion that it is "this wasn't based on consensus and you know it; your talk page discussion was a dare, not an agreement."

Jauerback, you still did not explain consensus on what. Allowing incorrect information to stay is not consensus. It's supporting vandalism. I don't want to do it. If there is any error in the edits that I made and anyone is pointing out that error by providing sources. I will accept it. Let there be constructive argument. Let the content of the page be with correct info. Kindly answer my question, consensus on which part? Which edit of mine is wrong?Chanakyathegreat (talk) 10:58, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Chanakyathegreat, please take this discussion to the talk page of the article, reread what's there, and you'll find all your questions have been answered numerous times. You're needlessly cluttering this page up and not accomplishing anything. Oh, and once again, please read WP:VANDALISM again. You continue to misuse it. Jauerback/_dude. 12:51, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Jauerback, it's the other way around. I had answered to all questions in great detail. Please check the Arjun MBT talk page.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 04:56, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Chanak, I'm done with trying to explain things to you and trying to direct you to things you should read. You either refuse to do so or you simply don't understand. The current version of the page is what the consensus (please click on that link and read it for once) was by several editors before they ALL complained about you coming in and whitewashing the article with misinterpreted information and outdated sources. As I've told you before, I DON'T CARE what you all decide (keywords: ALL DECIDE) to do, however you must establish a consensus, which you have repeatedly failed to do. Once everyone (and as it stands for right now, that's just you and By78) agrees on the content, then you can feel free to make changes. However, until then, please stop wasting your time on this board and on my talk page bloviating on this topic. Jauerback/_dude. 11:31, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Consensus on wikipedia is widely viewed as not requireing a 100% level of agreement.Geni 13:05, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Jauerback, my latest edits after that has been reverted by By78 is all from the latest reports. is from July 12 2008. Similarly is from June 17, 2008 and all links provided is the latest ones. By78 is not ready for consensus. First he had not provided any source to dispute what I have edited. The only thing done is accusation like POV pushing etc etc. I had explained this to you as well in detail. Then why is my version wrong and his version correct? Chanakyathegreat (talk) 14:44, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Jauerback, I would like to point out to you that consensus is required on something disputable. Here explanation has been provided to By78's about his misconceptions including the Winter/Summer trial mixup. Now the requirement for consensus falls on him. That is after understanding the issue he must not revert my edits or in good conduct revert to the version of my edit. This has not happened. But Jauerback, you are reverting it to the incorrect version by By78. This is the problem. Hopes you understands it.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 14:55, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I ask you this again: Do you intentionally ignore everything that is said to you? Jauerback/_dude. 17:04, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

User talk:166.70.238.43

I don't know what one word of this means but it looks like trouble so I thought an admin should check it out. Beeblebrox (talk) 04:55, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Refers to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Jeffrey Vernon Merkey alleged real-life stalking/harassment Brilliantine (talk) 05:01, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Is that WP:OUTING going to be allowed to stay there? Corvus cornix_talk 19:46, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Nobody has responded, so I blanked the page. Corvus cornix_talk 05:24, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

User:Hrafn

Request that user be asked to stop tagging articles and that an admin try and enforce this. He/she says that this is an ownership issues that I may be blocked for (), but I believe his tags are quite impartial and done not so much as to aid wikipedia as to pester me, because of our ongoing dispute resolution () and other encounters such as Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/McDonald's Menu Song. --Firefly322 (talk) 08:42, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

• tags
• reason for tags
• third party editor reinstating tag
• personal attack calling me a "troll"

Hrafn_Stalk 08:55, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Firefly, as your second link shows you've started mediation as a dispute resolution, and despite requests have failed to provide diffs clarifying what your dispute is. The fact that others have problems with your woolly writing is something to resolve by improving your writing, not by flying off into disputes whenever that's pointed out. Disclaimer: I'm named in Firefly's mediation case, but lacking diffs I'm not sure why. . . dave souza, talk 09:08, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Agree, basically, with Dave s. I don't see the "issue" here. Yeah, Hrafn and Firefly disagree on some stuff. That ain't newsworthy. Nobody is trolling anybody here, based on the links provided. This is a non-issue thread, and should be closed. If Firefly has a specific issue with an editor, F-fly should bring it to that editor's attention prior to bringing it to the drama-board. Keeper ǀ 76 01:36, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Agree, essentially. The majority of this dispute seems to arise from a misunderstanding of Verifiability policy, particularly WP:BURDEN. I don't think that uncited material should be restored pending verification, and I certainly don't think an editor should be reprimanded for removing uncited material. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 22:51, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Comments by Catherineyronwode

The following is taken from the current version of my own AN/I proposal against hrafn, located on my own user pages.

This article is in flagrant violation of WP:V. 
Material that is not cited to a source is unverifiable, 
and may be challenged and deleted, per wikipedia policy. 
Please do not make contributions without citing them to 
reliable sources. HrafnTalkStalk

04:23, 29 August 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)        (26 bytes) 
   (Rvt: kindly desist in spamming wikipedia with 
   contentless and congentitally malformed articles)  
03:38, 29 August 2008 Firefly322 (Talk | contribs)   (314 bytes) 
   (Undid revision 234508117 by Hrafn (talk)  
   article is stub of substantial topic with a 
   picture of subject matter.) 
05:26, 27 August 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)        (26 bytes) 
   (Article is an unsourced single sentence that 
   contains no information not already in Robert Boyle) 
11:08, 22 June   2008 Firefly322 (Talk | contribs) m (314 bytes) 
   (add the) (undo)
20:16, 13 June   2008 Pegship (Talk | contribs)    m (310 bytes) 
   (stub sort)

17:51, 25 June 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs) (1,605 bytes) 
(tag -- source is not reliable ( commercially-motivated source 
of anonymous authorship & unknown editorial & fact-checking standards); 
template -- no WP:RS = notability not established) (undo)

INTA
15:15,  7 July  2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)           (1,791 bytes) 
 8:56, 21 March 2008 Globalprofessor (Talk | contribs) (6,330 bytes)

Napoleon Hill, once a B-Class biography, now a stub
15:37, August 17, 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)      (2,439 bytes)
02:02, April  19, 2008 Johnlocke2 (Talk | contribs) (7,695 bytes) 

You cannot use a redirect as a method to delete an article 
without sending it thru WP:AFD. Please refrain from this. 
Thank you, Madman (talk) 04:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
    No. You cannot present any evidence that redirecting an 
    article requires WP:AFD. Read WP:GAFD instead of making 
    these baseless accusations! HrafnTalkStalk 05:32, 16 May 
    2008 (UTC) 

 20:35, 20 February 2008 PhilKnight (Talk | contribs)        (36 bytes) 
     (←Redirected page to Prayer in Christianity) (undo)
 20:29, 19 February 2008 PhilKnight (Talk | contribs)        (724 bytes) 
     (merge proposal) (undo)
 20:25, 19 February 2008 PhilKnight (Talk | contribs)        (689 bytes) 
     (remove speedy tag) (undo)
 19:48, 19 February 2008 Knock-Off Nigel (Talk | contribs) m (538 bytes)  
     (Requesting speedy deletion (CSD G1). (TW)) (undo)
 4:15, 19 February 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)              (522 bytes) 
     (Rm statements unsourced since October; template) (undo)
14:17, 15 October 2007 JGG59 (Talk | contribs) (2,713 bytes) 
     (past tense the answer is the prayer) (undo) 

# 16:03, 30 April 2008 Low Sea (Talk | contribs)    (1,113 bytes) 
(removed terminology implying negative biases and 
removed erroneous use of supplicatory (which is 
contrary to affirmation))[an editor simply tried to 
remove the negative word hrafn had added]
# 16:05, 21 April 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)       (1,142 bytes) 
(rm self-link)
[it became a "self-link" because hrafn had redirected 
the ] page out of existance]
# 22:40, 19 February 2008 Vernon39 (Talk | contribs) (1,146 bytes) 
(add link to "Affirmation" article) 
[Affirmative prayer article existed at this point, 
hence the short defining sentence and the link from 
the dab page]

06:27, April 19, 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs) (10,705 bytes)
06:25, April 19, 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs) (10,686 bytes) 
06:13, April 19, 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs) (13,868 bytes) 
02:13, April 19, 2008 69.22.232.176 (Talk)    (14,265 bytes) 

# 14:32, 16 May 2008 Madman2001 (Talk | contribs)   (941 bytes) 
# 14:15, 16 May 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)        (25 bytes)
# 14:12, 16 May 2008 Madman2001 (Talk | contribs) m (505 bytes) 
# 14:10, 16 May 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)        (25 bytes) 
# 14:01, 16 May 2008 Madman2001 (Talk | contribs)   (505 bytes) 

# 17:17, March    23, 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)   (1,833 bytes) 
# 17:15, March    23, 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)   (2,038 bytes)
# 17:03, March     4, 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)   (5,645 bytes) 
# 14:28, February 19, 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs) m (7,316 bytes)
# 14:27, February 19, 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)   (7,302 bytes) 
# 01:50, February 15, 2008 71.247.78.33 (Talk)       (7,318 bytes)

05:12, 17 August 2008 Madman2001 (Talk | contribs)       (5,300 bytes) 
05:00, 17 August 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)            (1,631 bytes) 
21:44, 16 August 2008 IceUnshattered (Talk | contribs) m (5,300 bytes)

# 05:14,  9 July 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)          (29 bytes) redir.; trashed into
# 23:51, 31 August 2008 64.142.90.33 (Talk)            (3,204 bytes) new start by new ed.
# 05:14,  9 July 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)          (29 bytes) redir.; trashed info
# 22:29,  8 July 2008 Friarpuckrory (Talk | contribs)  (568 bytes) new start by new ed.
#  0:54,  4 March 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)         (32 bytes)  redir.; trashed info
# 08:48, 22 February 2008 SmackBot (Talk | contribs) m (725 bytes)  

06:00,  8 July     2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)      (8,899 bytes) 
22:41,  7 July     2008 79.97.246.219 (Talk)         (10,171 bytes) 
11:48,  2 May      2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)      (7,874 bytes)
23:55, 17 April    2008 Lindsay658 (Talk | contribs) (8,266 bytes)
07:31, 17 April    2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)      (8,266 bytes)
22:02, 16 April    2008 149.171.241.39 (Talk)        (9,610 bytes)
03:29, 25 February 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)      (7,564 bytes) 
20:50, 30 December 2007 Triwbe (Talk | contribs) m   (25,456 bytes)

17:48, 3 September 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)      (2,699 bytes)
17:19, 3 September 2008 64.142.90.33 (Talk)          (3,352 bytes)
17:21, 21 August   2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)      (2,699 bytes)
16:59, 21 August   2008 87.127.18.198 (Talk)         (3,120 bytes)
02:19,  5 June     2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)      (2,676 bytes)
01:39,  5 June     2008 66.108.106.248 (Talk)        (3,042 bytes)
04:40, 19 May      2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)      (2,676 bytes)
03:28, 19 May      2008 Madman2001 (Talk | contribs) (3,929 bytes)
14:21, 17 May      2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)      (2,639 bytes)
13:56, 17 May      2008 66.108.106.248 (Talk)        (3,929 bytes)
11:40,  2 May      2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)      (2,639 bytes)
21:26,  9 April    2008 69.22.232.176 (Talk)         (3,963 bytes)

03:44, February 10, 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)        (2,556 bytes)
03:41, February 10, 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)        (3,546 bytes) 
03:41, February 10, 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)        (3,956 bytes)  
03:34, February 10, 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)        (4,371 bytes) 
03:08, February 10, 2008 DavidOaks (Talk | contribs)    (6,519 bytes) 
     (use citation tags to identify more precisely 
     what requires source)
02:53, February 10, 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)        (2,401 bytes) 
21:08, February 9, 2008 DavidOaks (Talk | contribs)     (6,519 bytes) 
     (reverting to previours version; 
     massive deletes require explanation) 
01:37, February 9, 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)         (2,401 bytes)
01:33, February 9, 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)         (3,391 bytes) (tags) 
     (2nd round of hostile tags increases byte-count)
01:16, February 9, 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)         (3,373 bytes)
15:53, January 29, 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)         (5,590 bytes)
10:33, January 20, 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)         (6,420 bytes) (template) 
     (first round of hostile cite-tags increases byte-count)
11:31, May      2, 2007 Grey Wanderer (Talk | contribs) (5,128 bytes)

04:47, September  8, 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)             (3,556 bytes) (restore Articleissues; AfD)
03:55, September  8, 2008 Catherineyronwode (Talk | contribs) (2,796 bytes)
13:54, September  6, 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)             (1,286 bytes) (Articleissues & prod)  
20:29, May       27, 2008 Dana boomer (Talk | contribs)       (978 bytes)  
18:37, December  28, 2007 Lquilter (Talk | contribs)          (976 bytes) 
15:48, December  11, 2007 WinBot (Talk | contribs)          m (991 bytes) 
21:25, September 20, 2007 Cydebot (Talk | contribs)         m (992 bytes) 
 1:34, September  4, 2007 Egpetersen (Talk | contribs)        (989 bytes) 
 9:43, June      22, 2007 86.42.67.223 (Talk)                 (932 bytes) 

11:19,  4 March    2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)    (25 bytes) 
     (A few brief mentions in a 90 year old 'history' 
     written by a minor member of the movement doesn't 
     add up to WP:NOTE; redirect to parent topic) (undo)
14:37, 19 February 2008 Hrafn (Talk | contribs)    (909 bytes) 
     (templates) (undo)
23:36, 14 December 2007 LAWinans (Talk | contribs) (809 bytes) 
     (→References) (undo)

catherine yronwode Catherineyronwode (talk) 22:03, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

tl;dr. Take it to dispute resolution. Corvus cornix_talk 22:46, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

o.O I think you've mistaken ANI for requests for comment, at the least, or arbitration. Kudos for the substantial amount of evidence gathering here, but ANI's not the place for such lengthy presentations. I suggest an RFC if there's a specific issue with hrafn that needs discussion. Tony Fox (arf!) 22:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Can someone please remove this? Verbal chat 22:59, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Agree; it's a nightmare of comprehension and deserves dedicated attention. No way is it an "incident". Suggest at best a subpage, otherwise moving to a Request for Comment. This page is for issues that can be dealt with expeditiously. --Rodhullandemu 23:47, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

<outdent>Okay, must i make a Request for Comments first or can this go directly to Arbitration? Please post a yes or no reply. If i must make a Request for Comments first, please tell me how to do it. If i can take this directly to Arbitration, please tell me the relevant URL. Misplaced Pages is not my social outlet; i use it as a volunteeer area to write and edit. I am not interested in bureaucracy (e.g. how this MUD is run), and although i have edited here regularly since 2006 (and since 205 as an IP), i do not know how to make headway in this twisty turny maze of similar-sounding-but-entirely-different "We Can't Help You With That Problem" pages. I request the URL of the page where there will be people whose job it is to read this complaint and see that this problem be dealt with. Thanks. cat yronwode

User:Seth Whales

This user has insisted on duplicating information, and adding information based on less-than-credible sourcing. Most of the sources in question were not an authority, and all of them had been referenced entirely out of context. For example, the same style applied to this comment would suddenly frame me as saying that all of this user's sourcing was questionable. More information lives at Talk:A4232 road. This user seems to be insistent on playing the man rather than the ball, and then has the audacity to make nonsense proposals under the guise of being "willing to compromise", when these "compromises" are one-sided and invite conduct contrary to policy - an equivalent compromise would be "give me $10 and you can have your $5 bill back". I also consider the participation of User:Haydnaston as suspicious - this user comes out of nowhere to make a revert, and promptly disappears again.

• a weasely accusation of vandalism
• attempting to shift blame
• misrepresenting the quality of his sources
• referring to this as "vandalism"
• claiming they are not going to revert (and then doing so)
• because I pointed out that the offer was not a "compromise" by any definition, this apparently makes me "an uncompromising individual"
• proposing a bogus "compromise", and accusing of sockpuppetry

There is no question that any of the edits concerned could be vandalism, so at the very least I suggest that the user's rollback is revoked. As the user has continued to revert even after a block has been made in the matter, I believe further censure is appropriate, in particular since I ceased any activity on the article concerned well before the block, and have once again ceased activity. 217.36.107.9 (talk) 15:46, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

The user's confrontational attitude can be nicely summed up by the fact that they have invited a block, and again made a further attack after being warned. 217.36.107.9 (talk) 15:48, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it was a good idea to issue a 'final' NPA warning when no earlier warnings were given, especially if you can't be sure an admin would agree with you. Both of you need to take this to dispute resolution. -- Donald Albury 19:45, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Since there seems to be no clear evidence that the user wants to engage in good-faith resolution, can someone as a first step remove the rollback permission, as it has clearly been abused here. 217.36.107.9 (talk) 13:09, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Watching this debate from the side, and having revert issues on another Article. I feel strongly that it must be made clear that edited wars have become rather a common recurrence with User 217.36.107.9. I am sure that 217.36.107.9 actions are in good faith, but there seems to me to be a lack of sensitivity to other peoples work. More discussion before actions would, I’m sure lead to less conflict. Also the slapping of warnings on users talk pages is not a good recipe for a peaceful editing community. A little more respect and cooperation would go a long way here.

 stavros1  ♣  22:57, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Admin censoring news of possible Wikiquote deletion

• Meta is discussing the deletion of Wikiquote, so I left a note with a link to this debate at the Pump.
• The post was censored a few hours later by self-proclaimed "rouge admin" User:Mr.Z-man. The deletion was made under a false pretense since a single post on the Pump is hardly "canvassing", and the post could have been amended if needed instead of suppressing the information entirely.

How an admin is allowed to act like that (and augment the apparence that something's fishy) I'll never understand. 62.147.37.92 (talk) 20:26, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

(You mean "rogue", not "rouge". "Rouge" is a color and a cosmetic. Saw the same error twice on Slashdot this morning.) --John Nagle (talk) 15:41, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

No, it is supposed to be rouge (it's an old joke). -- Donald Albury 15:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

What does this have to do with the English language Misplaced Pages? Corvus cornix_talk 20:53, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

It's relevant to all wikimedia users, particularly users of english projects - english wikipedia just happens to be one of the largest projects. --Random832 (contribs) 20:58, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikiquote is pretty much worthless. It doesn't have the kind of rigor demanded in wikipedia, so it's all OR; and it's generally run in a sloppy way - you might see the same quote several times within a given subject. Baseball Bugs 21:01, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, I don't believe the problem is that it's worthless, but that it is a liability. There are entire farms of egregious copyright violations in there, and no requirement for any sort of actual, you know, quotability of the material. — Coren  23:06, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

The thread was basically telling people to go and oppose the thread on meta. I have no problem with linking to the discussion, but please write such messages neutrally (as I said in the edit summary, if you had bothered to read it before reverting me and coming here). "There is a discussion on meta about disbanding Wikiquote" (with a link) would suffice. And then using words like "censored" while at the same time inviting me to amend it to make it neutral? And thanks for informing me of this discussion. Mr.Z-man 21:19, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

And yes, leaving a biased message is considered canvassing (campaigning, to be precise). Mr.Z-man 21:22, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Considering the heat we took the last time we sent a notice about a Meta discussion, I'm not sure canvassing in the WP projects about this is a great idea (and that the people at Meta will thank you for it). -- lucasbfr 21:30, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

• My personal scorefile gives -5 for censorship and -7 for suppression, less than -10 and you're in the "Nutters: Ignorable" category. Just for info, you understand. Guy (Help!) 22:46, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

  Heh. Good analysis as always Guy. That said, I like Wikiquote. That's where I started (pre-en-wiki), and where I frequently refer. I don't edit there though. If there's a way to salvage it, I'm game. Keeper ǀ 76 01:14, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

User:Pigsonthewing blocked for edit-warring personal attacks.

Those of you with long memories will remember this user, who has twice been banned by the Arbitration Committee for a year at a time. This user has just come off his second year long ban, and has gotten back into one of his old, bad, habits, which is edit-warring a section on his user page accusing another user of being a stalker. He refused to stop edit-warring that section in, despite a consensus on ANI at the time (see User_talk:Pigsonthewing/Archive_13#Your_.22stalker.22_paragraph_on_your_userpage and sections below that for his intransigence on the issue). He's now returned from his second ArbCom ban, and is edit-warring again. I have blocked him 24 hours for it. I am bringing up this fairly uncontroversial issue because another administrator, User:Neil, who probably wasn't aware of the previous discussion (I'm trying to find the diff of the ANI discussion for it), and wasn't sure that it was controversial. SirFozzie (talk) 23:30, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive263#User:Pigsonthewing Is the previous discussion on this. SirFozzie (talk) 23:34, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Ahh, so soon? That's too bad. You made the right call here. Shereth 23:50, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

This is in my view a deplorable block and a deplorable block report, a completely wretched administrative action.

Sir Fozzle has provoked an edit war with a user with whom per Archive263#User:Pigsonthewing he has been in dispute with in the past; he hasn't just stumbled upon it, he has been the knowing precipitator of it.

Sir Fozzle knew at the time of his intervention that Neal had already started to talk to Andy in a respectful rather than an imperative tone about the notice but appears to think his own warn, war & ban approach superior.

The notice itself is entirely composed of Leonig's words. It is entirely possible to read it as a statement of facts and not as an attack. If we assume good faith, we must accept that it is not a categorical conclusion that it is an attack, and we should therefore tread with a care entirely lacking in the implementation of this block. We may nevertheless deplore the notice. But we have not been stalked by Leonig and we are in a different headspace entirely.

The block is entirely partisan, precipitate, arrogant, ill-considered and petty. It is absolutely the single least likely means of effecting change in the situation. It is the single most likely means of ensuring this whole notice thing will continue to rumble on with the same pattern of escalation. A completely counterproductive move which once more is most likely to lose us once more the services of an very good & productive editor.

I'm sorry. My view is that this block is both dim witted and abusive, and the block report entirely disingenuous. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:10, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

You can lay off the personal slander for starters, Tagishsimon. It doesn't further your case or cause. After reviewing the block and the prior actions of Pigsonthewing, I am endorsing the block. seicer | talk | contribs 01:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

As you well know, Tagishsimon, there was a consensus already that the section was a personal attack. You yourself participated in that discussion (linked above). You may not agree with it, I understand, but consensus backs me in this issue. SirFozzie (talk) 01:12, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

To clear one thing up, I have "known" Andy since prior to his first block, and was fully aware of the circumstances surrounding the issues he has/had with Leonig Mig. I don't think this block was particularly appropriate, as I had already begun to engage with Andy over his voluntarily removing it. SirFozzie was aware of this, and perhaps talking to me first rather than edit warring over the section and blocking Andy might have been a better route to go down. Andy is a difficult character at times, prone to "I know best" - a trait he shares with many admins! - but responds far better to polite requests as opposed to orders. If this ends up with Andy/Pigsonthewing being indef blocked after he responds badly to this baiting, I will be very disappointed but not suprised. Neıl ☄ 06:17, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Also, wouldn't it have been better to protect his userpage rather than block him? Most of his editing is fine, and protecting the userpage would have allowed that to continue. Seriously, if a year's block didn't dissuade him from adding the section, what difference is 24 hours more going to make? Neıl ☄ 06:24, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

That was actually tried last time. He started adding it to his user talk page instead. SirFozzie (talk) 07:04, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• This is a clear case of a vendetta being carried on beyond all sense, since Mig has not edited more than very occasionally all year. Pigs knows this is a problem, and his edit summary accusing others of vandalism for reverting it is unacceptable. If this ends up with him being blocked, then I won't be especially disappointed; if I can learn to walk away from those who bait me then so can he, especially when they do not seem to be active. Guy (Help!) 09:50, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• Support block (of any length) - the stalking note is a reference to events in July 2005 which have been hashed and rehashed dozens of times. 3 years have passed - let us move on. Occuli (talk) 12:30, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

In a clear case of Back to the Future, he is now again adding it to his user talk page (because that is the only page he is able to edit while blocked). The next time he adds the section, to ANY page, I will block him indefinitely, until such time as he agrees to not add that section anywhere. SirFozzie (talk) 12:41, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The guy twice gets blocked for a full year, waits for his sentence to expire, and starts in again, and gets blocked again? Is there an anti-barnstar for ultra-patient vandals? Baseball Bugs 12:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• Support blocking at admin discretion. I remember all the previous history of this debate, and in my opinion (as admin and bureaucrat of another wiki with over 3 years' experience) this kind of thing is ultimately detrimental to the project. As the history shows, Pigsonthewing has continued to disregard the Misplaced Pages way of doing things, and has no problem using inflammatory language and personal attacks when it suits him despite his vociferous protestations about others doing the same. Codeine (talk) 12:58, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

In short, he did it twice more, and in response I have blocked him indefinitely, and protected his user talk page for 48 hours due to disruption. When it expires, if he wants to be unblocked, all he has to do is state that he will cease and desist from adding attacks on another user, and drop the grudges. SirFozzie (talk) 13:06, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

No offense, but you need to step back and let another admin handle this. You are very clearly involved in this based on the previous discussions, and it seems like you're just looking for an ax to grind with him. I'm by no means Andy's biggest fan (and in the past I've railed against him for his attitude and the actions he takes), but it would be more appropriate to let someone fresh deal with it (such as Neil). —Locke Cole • t • c 01:58, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Community ban time?

The block log is deplorable, has waited a year to continue the same grudge, has twice been banned by arbcom for a year in seperate cases. Do we need him here anymore? Viridae 13:10, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• No, we don't, as I learnt from Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pigsonthewing 2. The problem isn't Andy's encyclopedia-editing skills, it's the fact that he cannot cope with people disagreeing with him. When they do, he flames them, which he's been doing both here and, I believe, on Usenet, for a very long time. Two arbcom bans? And still more drama? Forget it, we don't need this guy. Moreschi (talk) 13:14, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
• Agreed, he's here to war with the community, not to write an encyclopedia. It amazes me that he comes of a ban and continues his ways. –Juliancolton 13:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
• As Moreschi says, his encyclopaedia-writing skills are actually quite good. There are not many editors who have gone through two year-long bans and returned, still committed to writing an encyclopaedia. For that reason I think it is worth trying to talk to him; if talking him round proves impossible, it may still be possible to work something out. Therefore oppose for the time being. Sam Blacketer (talk) 14:03, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
  • People have been trying to talk to Andy for years. They've failed. He cannot get along with people who even mildly disagree with him, and we will not change him. He's too stubborn, as the fact that's returned after two AC bans shows. Moreschi (talk) 14:22, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
• This sort of attitude is not appropriate, no matter how otherwise excellent the other contributions might be. Not getting the hint after two year-long bans pretty much garantees that the point won't be gotten, ever. — Coren  14:53, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
• Normally I would say this is being too quick to jump the gun, but given the unrepentant interest in continuing to hold a grudge long after the fact, I am forced to come to a different conclusion. The fact that after a year's ban he wastes no time in continuing with the vendetta, edit-warring over it, and going so far as to perpetuate the problem on his talk page after he was issued a block indicates that Andy has no interest in standing down, and that no amount of blocking or admonishing will get him to stop. Unfortunately I have to agree that a community ban may indeed be in order. Shereth 15:11, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
• I think this is probably a case of Misplaced Pages is not therapy. Everything that can be tried, has been - he and Misplaced Pages just aren't a good fit. Shell 16:04, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
• Concur. I wish Potw well in his endeavors - elsewhere. KillerChihuahua 16:14, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
• As noted, he's been through two year long bans, if Neil wants to try and work with him, I believe he should be allowed to do so. But not with SirFozzie edit warring and blocking him... —Locke Cole • t • c 01:58, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Disruption of Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)

A poll (that multiple editors have already stated does not have options available that encapsulate their actual views to begin with) has started at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Date format resolution attempt. This poll (initially launched in terms of "voting"; I have adjusted the language) was already further undermined by (since-reverted) inclusion of a "the vote so far" summary embedded in the middle of the poll (a strong biasing tactic). Now, one participant invested in this debate has launched a second, "run-off" poll to "vote" (that editor's words, not mine) on which of two options from the original poll to choose between, before the first poll has concluded (it's only been running for a few hours), and despite both criticism of the original poll and criticism of the use of outright voting as a substitute for consensus-building. I have tried to get the point across both at that page and the talk page of the user in question, Greg L, who reverted removal of the pre-emptive second poll). I believe the second poll to be genuinely disruptive and a massive PoV-pushing exercise. Disclaimer: I have added a !vote to the poll, but I do not have a particularly vested interest in the outcome of it, which is actually so far going pretty much the way I would like, and is a tempest in a teapot anyway. This ANI report is about an editing behavior issue, not a topical viewpoint. — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 00:03, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Update: Greg L added a second, redundant heading to the talk page in an attempt to direct more editors to his railroading second poll. I think this constitutes evidence of WP:DE (and WP:CANVAS, in that there is no consensus for a second poll at all, and registered opposition to the idea already). — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 00:05, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Update: WP:NPA violation (accused me of vandalism). — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 00:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Unrelated to the interpersonal bits, that kinda-RFC seems needlessly complicated. Protonk (talk) 00:16, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that's been raised as well, but isn't why I'm here. — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 00:23, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I know. Protonk (talk) 00:42, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Update: More canvassing for disputed second poll, including declaration of what the two "run-off" winners are, despite no consensus that poll is closed. — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 00:24, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Time to bring the hammer down, Rubber Duck. Baseball Bugs 00:30, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• To the admins. Tony asked me to post a poll (which I did) and then he put this notice regarding that poll on the Village pump so many editors could participate. The position of SMcCandlish is clear with his 4-0-0-0 vote. He participated in a poll, and then he declared that he thinks all polls to be evil. Clearly, a lot of editors want to participate in this because very many have participated in it and also engaged in well behaved debate and discussion. SMcCandlish is out of step with the rest of us. We’re trying to see if we can develop a consensus here and his obstructionist moves are getting in the way of that objective. Greg L (talk) 00:33, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Well. Just because someone participates in a poll doesn't require them to like it. I vote, I am not therefore required to like the US system of elections. My suggestion is that you guys carve out a new talk page section and discuss changes to this like they did over at Wikipedia_talk:Notability/RFC:compromise. There we had a few editors adding and removing proposals and we spent some time to hash it out before moving on. Nothing is really going to permanently damage this discussion, so I would cool down on the crisis mode. Protonk (talk) 00:45, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• I agree. Why the crisis? I am astonished SMcCandlish’s effort to ratchet up the tenor here; everything had been going very smoothly on WT:MOSNUM and all the editors (with one notable exception) have been very civil and constructive. Note the total lack of rancor here at the vote comments. May I suggest we let Tony, who sort of serves as a moderator of sorts on MOSNUM, weigh in over there after he wakes up? Australian time you see. I don’t perceive an imperative to move the polls off of Talk:MOSNUM since discussing dates is just about the only thing that is done over there as of late; that’s what the venue is for after all. Greg L (talk) 00:59, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Indeed (in response to Protonk). Wanting to participate in a poll is not sign at all on other editors' part that they want someone to control the poll in a highly manipulative way. In response to Greg L: You're the one in WP:PANIC mode, closing polls prematurely, announcing "run-off votes" before the original has closed, declaring poll results after only a matter of a few hours, reflexively reverting well-explained opposition to these moves, and launching into blatant personal attacks (accusations of "vandalism" and "censorship"). — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 01:03, 11 September 2008 (UTC) Also, I did not declare polls to be evil; please do not mischaracterize what I wrote. I said that they are rarely actually helpful. If you want to call me "obstructionist" with regard to not letting a single party railroad a consensus discussion, then fine. I'm certainly not obstructionist with regard to actually coming to a genuine consensus on the issue, a process this poll is not helping with by polarizing the debate and forcing editors to literally vote (Greg L's wording) on options they don't actually even agree with. That the debate has been civil is not a point in favor of Greg L's view (nor against it); it is simply normal - Wikipedians are supposed to be civil. — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 01:09, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Update: WP:3RR reached (not yet breached): * reverted (in different wording) . (which was a revert on my part)

• reverted (which was a revert on my part)
• reverted and a previous version (addition by someone else).
• Technically there actually was a fourth one, but it was a housekeeping removal of some junk code that was accidentally re-inserted, so I don't count that one, nor stuff in the nature of an alteration rather than reversion. Warning in order? I think all of the above clearly establishes as pattern of WP:OWN over this "vote", as well as all the other problems already raised. The fact that someone "asked him" to start a poll doesn't mean it gets to go his personal way by fiat. — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 01:03, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• To clarify, my comment was an admonishment to both editors. Stop reverting over the format and nature of the poll. Figure out between the two of you what you can agree on at the talk page. Slow down. If the whole thing weren't so durn complicated, I would make a direct suggestion, but as it stands all I can do is make general suggestions. If you both keep up this reverting and escalating business (and greg, it's you too), neither will be happy with the results. Protonk (talk) 01:07, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I won't revert anything further there. That's why I came here - I find revert wars to be completely pointless. The damage has already been done. What could have been a possibly informative poll has turned into an invalid farce, and I don't think that can be undone. — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 01:24, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Someone needs to update WP:LAME. That is by far, the most asinine poll/vote/not vote/thread I've ever seen. Keeper ǀ 76 01:11, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I dunno, I think that posting here was one of the more creative (albeit possibly inappropriate) ways to drum up interest in a discussion, than I've seen lately : ) - jc37 01:19, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Also, someone needs to read Arrow's impossibility theorem. Protonk (talk) 01:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• P.S. WP:Canvas “is sending messages to multiple Wikipedians with the intent to inform them about a community discussion.” I have done none of that. And the only disruptive editor over on WT:MOSNUM were caused by SMcCandlish. Everything was peaceable and without rancor until SMcCandlish charged into the middle of the event, claimed that all polls are evil, and deleted an entire poll. I ask that SMcCandlish be required to post evidence of my canvasing, and (when he is unable to demonstrate as much), that he be sanctioned for coming here to sling bucket-fulls of muck on the wall in hopes that something would stick. I ask that he be sanctioned for bringing false charges. Greg L (talk) 01:13, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• Two personal attacks don't make a civil comment. You weren't canvassing, per se, but neither is candish railing on about the evils of voting or 'charging in', or doing things with buckets and muck. Protonk (talk) 01:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) Greg L: Again, please stop falsifying my statements. I did not "delete an entire poll", I deleted your attempt to create an empty new poll that undermined the first one's (already questionable) results. The discussion was actually quite lively; your implication that all was quiet on the front is false (as already noted, the fact that no one has been flaming and attacking - other than you - is neither here nor there). As for canvassing, read it more closely. It is not limited to posting individual notes on individual's talk pages. Your two attempts in a row to direct all editorial attention at that page to your pre-emptive second poll when the legitimacy of that poll itself and even its existence on the page are the subject of editorial dispute is very clearly canvassing. I close by noting that I've not asked for any sanctions against you at all, other than being warned to chill out (which Protonk has done, and I don't mind being warned myself in the process), because I've been assuming good faith even if complaining of misguided action. — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 01:24, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• The record is clear as to what happened. I don’t need to characterize or mischaracterize anything you did or didn’t do. I’ll let the admins deal with you. And no, everything I did was entirely out in the open right on the talk page of MOSNUM. Your charges are without foundation and everything you wrote above was nothing but salacious false fabrications. Did you see anyone else on WT:MOSNUM complaining about my job of moderating the voting? I count just one editor: YOU. And why would that be the case? Your “4-0-0-0” vote betrays your extreme bias. You should be sanctioned for what you’ve done. Goodbye. I’m too pissed off with this stunt of yours at the moment to further deal with you here. Greg L (talk) 01:37, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• Mischaracterization: Protonk noted that you were mischaracterizing me even before I did. Admins: I haven't done anything worthy of admin attention. In the open: Of course it was in the open; everything, including your revertwarring, is in the open on a Wiki. That doesn't make everything that happens on a Wiki a good idea. Fabrications: I've linked to diffs. You can't really fabricate anything on a wiki. Complaints: Yes, there are others. Several respondents to the poll noted that its options were too limited, and below on this page another echoes my concerns about your closing it prematurely and selecting two options from it for a "run-off", while both there and here editors have commented that it is too complicated (and "lame" according to one). Furthermore, Misplaced Pages is not a popularity contest. Flagging inappropriate behavior does not require a vote, and a lack of 100 people flagging it as inappropriate doesn't make it appropriate. Extreme bias: I think this really, really gets to the core of the matter: You are clearly not interested in valid poll results, but in getting your way and mischaracterizing others as extremists if you set up a (skewed) 4-option poll and then actually publicly castigate people for selecting one of the options! And (not that it's important) I clearly explained my rationale. I have no particular bias at all; I see A and B as identical, C as a minor variant of it, and D as irrelevant, and explained clearly that whatever the outcome, WP:MOSNUM and WP:ENGVAR should not conflict with each other. I'd say that's a completely rational and calm position. Sanctioned: For what? I've used WP:ANI for what it is for: flagging revertwarring, personal attacks and other disruptive editing. You on the other hand, with this post above, have just now personally attacked me for the fourth time in fewer hours. Pissed off: WP:TEA, WP:MASTADON. If you have become too emotionally involved in an editing dispute and can't control your temper with regard to it, then it is time to back off. I don't really have anything else to say on these matters and will return to WP:MOSNUM with a proposal for non-voting discussion. — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 03:08, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• A lot of people would see me as anything but a moderator at MOSNUM; rather, a partisan activist. However, on this matter, the reason I havn't indicated my preferences on the table (better word than vote) is that I can't decide between two of the options. I regard both Greg L and SMcCandlish as allies (not on all issues, but certainly in general); this puts me in a difficult situation. All I really wanted in suggesting the tabular idea was to bring us closer to a decision on this important matter. I haven't ventured onto MOSNUM talk yet, but will later today. Tony (talk) 02:26, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. As I have tried to make clear, this is a procedural matter, not one about which option in the poll is "better". We cannot launch polls, characterized as outright votes, and then manipulate them the entire time they a running until until we personally like the results, and then exclude the ones we don't like. And, yes, I am most often in agreement with Greg L, but the over-control of this poll has really been a nasty surprise. — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 03:08, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

As a keenly interested participant, I'd like to say that I think that good will is running pretty high on this. It's more of a misunderstanding than anything else. To begin with, it's just a poll, and while it will aid in consensus-building over what has been a spirited discussion, it's not going to have any binding result. Tony and Greg have done well to get a poll going in such an excellent format, where results and trends are immediately clear. I've advised all participants in the previous discussion, and one or two other places, such as VPP about the poll, and I think it needs time, maybe a week from first being put up, for everyone to have an input. While a run-off is a good idea, I'd like votes in the original poll to trickle out before starting a new one. I also think that wording of the two options could be tweaked a bit to tersen them up a bit. One of the two run-off options contains a bit more electioneering than is strictly necessary, and the other has grown more verbose than needful. If Greg could perhaps be persuaded to withdraw the run-off for a few days, at least until editors have stopped voting in the original poll? --Pete (talk) 02:35, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

"While a run-off is a good idea, I'd like votes in the original poll to trickle out before starting a new one...until editors have stopped voting in the original poll." Yes, indeed. That's what brought me here, Greg L's pre-emptive closing of the poll after only hours and launching a new poll with his chosen two options, and blanket reverting opposition to this inexplicable move, twice in a row. I've never claimed that there was no good-will toward the original poll, only that several have expressed concerns about its neutrality. If someone else wants to deal with this, that's up to them. I've already stated above that I'm not going to revert these moves again. — SMcCandlish ‹(-¿-)› 03:08, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

All of those pages suffer from WP:TLDR; there's some relationship between verbosity and editors attracted to MoS (Tony seems to be an exception). I don't have time to read all of that, so I won't enter the "vote". Seriously, everyone who participates in MoS discussions needs to work on keeping commentary in digestibly sized chunks. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• There. I listened to my “Relax” playlist on iTunes last night and slept on it. And now I know exactly what pissed me off about the knee-jerk reaction of SMcCandlish in coming to ANI to post a complaint. One word: censorship. Anytime someone posts a contentious guideline to WP:MOSNUM that is contrary to the consensus view and/or wasn’t properly discussed, such text can be reverted by another editor. But Talk:MOSNUM is an entirely different venue: it is a special forum where editors discuss, debate, and share thoughts.

  If SMcCandlish thinks the all polls are evil, he can say so—and he did. If he thinks the first poll was called too early, he should state as much… there on Talk:MOSNUM. Notwithstanding the ridiculous picture SMcCandlish would like to paint of the nature of the goings-on over on Talk:MOSNUM, no single editor can hijack Talk:MOSNUM and make it go—for very long anyway—in a direction that the main body of editors doesn’t want it to go. Talk:MOSNUM has plenty of experienced editors with fine-tuned brain filters for inappropriate procedures and B.S. Everything was quite peaceable over there last night. As anyone can see, the current run-off poll (which I restored after SMcCandlish deleted it and he then came here to make a federal case out of it) is receiving plenty of participation and many editors are showing how they feel on the options and are sharing thoughts and engaging in civilized debate.

  And since I “closed” the earlier poll, more editors have voted and have updated and maintained my summary statistics on the voting—none of which has changed the outcome as to which two options were the leading candidates. If anything, the additional voting has further gone against his views. I was too distracted by this ANI to really focus on what really ticked me off about SMcCandlish’s move: in a forum for discussion and debate and the sharing of ideas (not MOSNUM itself where it is appropriate to delete improperly posted text), he so objected to what was being done, he elected not to make a case and rally other editors to his way of thinking. Instead, he simply deleted an entire swath of Talk:MOSNUM, declaring that he didn’t like it so damned much, that he was going to decide for everyone else what was permissible for them to participate in and when they may do so.

  To SMcCandlish: If you have something to say, say it. If you think all polling is evil, say it. If you want to participate in a vote and then say all polling is evil, do so (you did). If you think the poll was improperly called, state as much and rally others to declare it foul and boycott it. If you want to start your own poll, do so. If I write something that you think is wrong, point out the shortcomings of my argument. But get this much clear: in a freewheeling discussion and debate forum where editors are being civil and aren’t engaging in personal attacks, the proper response to bad speech is better speech. Don’t ever again act as a unilateral censor in a debate and discussion forum and presume to decide for others what issues they may participate in and discuss with others. Greg L (talk) 17:58, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

RfC on the topic

Someone should mention that the two creators of this poll have simultaneously created an RfC to continue their pursuit of Tony1 here. As you can see here the users wish to move on to the next forum when consensus does not support them. These two are becoming very disruptive very quickly. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:53, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

It is a sign of the complexity here that these are different editors, who disagree with Tony over a different issue. They are concerned with the linking and autoformatting of dates; SMcCandlish is talking about which format (September 11, 2008 or 11 September 2008) dates are in, without autoformatting, and whether linked or not. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:21, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

It deals with linking. There is no difference between linking dates for autoformatting or for wikilinks, and they are united in being delinked. The one appears to be a subset of the other. You can see from this comment "Sapphic. Yes, your vote statement (“Autoformatting makes this entire poll irrelevant”) is true" (Greg L (talk) 01:50, 10 September 2008 (UTC)) as evidence of it. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Not irrelevant, no; two arguments on the same page at the same time are unlikely to be absolutely unrelated to each other. But Sapphic is (as Greg says) neutral on this issue, which is about the format of dates in edit space, whether linked or not. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:42, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• Ottava Rima: Really, you’ve got all your facts thoroughly screwed up. There is only one creator of the poll (me). And I have nothing whatsoever to do with any RfCs against Tony; he and I see eye-to-eye on many (not all) issues regarding dates. And as PMAnderson has correctly pointed out, the editors who have done the RfC against Tony (I just now discovered it), have a problem with how Tony is championing the deprecation of autoformatting of dates (the special tools that make *pretty* dates for we editors but often mucks things up for 99.9% of our readership). The polling issue has nothing whatsoever to do with autoformatting; it has everything to do with how editors should go about determining which format of date editors should use when writing out fixed-text dates in articles. And the above ANI really doesn’t have anything to do with that; it has everything to do with someone trying to act like someone died and made him God, with the powers to decide for others what debate and thought is permissible to be discussed in a talk forum. Greg L (talk) 18:24, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Greg, when I put the "this poll" I ment to put a link up there and direct it to the second poll. I just noticed the error and put it in its place. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:22, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

• Ahh… I see. That makes sense now. Like Gilda Radner used to say: *never mind*.  Thanks. Greg L (talk) 02:03, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

• I hope everything makes sense now. I was going to leave it in its own note, but I didn't want the above to be seen as a continuation per se, but a spin off from the topic (i.e. the MoS Date Page). The one user in that RfC that established it mentioned going to AN/I. Since this was here, I wanted to give the slight heads up so that this doesn't degenerate out of control as it possibly could. I want to make it clear to everyone again that I'm not commenting on Greg's posts, or any of the above comment, but only introducing a similar topic from the same area that might need eyes on. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:06, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

User:Sciencewatcher

User is adding false information relating to ME/CFS (and other disorders) on numerous pages, reverting every correction and removing dispute templates as he goes. The articles involved are:

• ME/CFS nomenclatures‎
• Psychosomatic medicine‎
• Chronic fatigue syndrome management

and probably more. This is all the same pov that he has been pushing for over a year, that ME/CFS is according to him a psychosomatic disorder rather than the neurological disorder as classified by the WHO. Most users that worked on these articles and daily corrected him in the past have given up and left. I have neither the time nor the desire to keep policing these articles, but his edits are hurtful to patients and something needs to be done. Yours sincerely, Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 01:30, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

erm, a lot of doctors think it's a psychosomatic disorder- but then you already know that.:) Sticky Parkin 02:50, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

If you have a source, add it somewhere. But let's adhere to WP:UNDUE, shall we? Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 07:08, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

More WP:MYPOV than a WP:UNDUE issue, I'd say - the idea that this is a psychosomatic disorder is not exactly fringe, as far as I can tell - in fact the main resistance to that seems to come from the activist community rather than medics themselves. Guy (Help!) 09:45, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

From the main article:

The mechanisms and processes (pathogenesis) of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome are gradually being revealed through research, including physiological and epidemiological studies. In a basic overview of CFS for health professionals, the CDC states that "After more than 3,000 research studies, there is now abundant scientific evidence that CFS is a real physiological illness." Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 11:04, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Redux: you want Misplaced Pages to blaze the trail in informing the medical profession that they are wrong. Sorry, no. Much of the profession considers it psychosomatic, and that is a mainstream view. Guy (Help!) 12:04, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Guy, with all due respect, I think you are talking out of your hat at this point. You are not a medical professional, have presented no citations, and are arguing against the current weight of opinion.

The opinion that it's psychosomatic is now a tiny minority. And you appear to be supporting POV Pushing for this minority view. Representing that opposition to this only comes from 'activist groups' is moderately insulting to people with this condition, such as myself, and the medical community who are attempting to find it's root cause, and hopefully a cure.

I refer you to the current CDC Position, "CFS is not caused by depression, although the two illnesses often coexist, and many patients with CFS have no psychiatric disorders."

But all that aside, this is not the place to discuss a content dispute. This is the place to respond to someone being a disruptive editor and going against productive consensus editing. If you can't calmly investigate the issue on that alone, then please don't get involved as an administrator at all. --Barberio (talk) 12:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I find it laughable that Guy is directing somebody else towards MPOV over this, given his comments here. Brilliantine (talk) 16:31, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Psychosomatic disorders are real and if people think that is a derogatory labelling then it is those that take offence that are mistaken - but this is a separate issue. The issue on these pages seems to be a content disagreement, so dispute resolution should be tried. Verbal chat 10:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

User has refused that by removing all templates. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 11:28, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Templates aren't the answer. Try engaging on talk pages, getting external input via an RFC, or going to WP:3O or somesuch; assuming you haven't, apologies if you have. Verbal chat 12:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Sciencewatcher does need to start providing sources for his edits. The burden is on the one who wants to include information. Guido, it couldn't hurt for you to argue with sources, say, for the claim that the WHO classifies CFS as only ME. Mangojuice 13:40, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Please get the facts straight. It is Sciencewatcher who wants to include certain 'information'. I have asked for sources on talk pages many times, and so have many others time and time again, but he provides none (he can't, because there aren't any that support his pov).

On a side note: the ICD10 is already in the references, but you have this wrong even more. The WHO does not classify 'CFS as ME'. It classifies ME as a disorder of the brain. CFS can be found in the alphabetic list of terms (i.e., not in the classification proper), where it has the same code as ME. But this has all been explained and shown to user a dozen times already. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 13:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that Guido simply cannot work with other editors. He has been blocked in the past for exactly this. If you look at my edits you'll see that I try to discuss things with him, but it never gets anywhere. He is just completely unreasonable. Apparently it's okay for him to add an edit saying the WHO classifies CFS as ME, but when I add the info he left out, i.e. that it also classifies it as Neurasthenia (fatigue syndrome) Guido didn't like this, so he said I put "false information" into the article! And in reply to Mangojuice's comment: I do always provide sources for my edits when asked. In the case of the psychosomatic article, however, the sources are in the articles themselves (e.g. CFS/IBS, etc.) and it doesn't make sense to add a whole load more reference bloat - the user can just read the articles for those illnesses. Guido claims that wikipedia isn't a reliable source, which is true, but it misses the point. Anyway, I'm just going to let others look at the edits and I'll be happy with whatever the consensus is. It's hard having a consensus with Guido because he forces his point of view, is unreasonable, and yet claims he is a member of wikipedia's "harmonious editing club"! --Sciencewatcher (talk) 14:02, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages articles are not acceptable sources. It does make sense to add "more reference bloat" when justifying the inclusion of information. I will say this, though: Guido, you have to calm down and stop looking at this situation as a war. You may be in the right on some of these edits, or maybe not. But you've started out with a combative attitude that has made building a consensus difficult. Look at your response to me, for instance, when I've been supporting you! As for the ME vs. ME and neurasthenia nomenclature dispute, my point is that a clear inline cite either way would be helpful, and no, I didn't look into it so closely. But Sciencewatcher, this goes for you too. Both of you have been escalating these situations into an edit war. It's particularly unhelpful to remove dispute tags: it's like a slap in the face to those who disagree with you, and a sign that you aren't even willing to discuss the issue. Mangojuice 14:10, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about that, Mangojuice. I'm not really that agitated, but I am tired and information processing is wobbly at the moment. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 14:18, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) The ICD10 classifies Neurasthenia (F48.0) thus :

Excludes:

• asthenia NOS ( R53 )
• burn-out ( Z73.0 )
• malaise and fatigue ( R53 )
• postviral fatigue syndrome ( G93.3 )
• psychasthenia ( F48.8 )

ME is listed under postviral fatigue syndrome, i.e. neurasthenia explicitly excludes ME, as well as all other terms that have the code G93.3. Some of the confusion stems from the fact that neuromyasthenia used to be an alternative term for ME. Almost the same word, but biological rather than psychosomatic. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 14:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

And many researchers think that ME and neurasthenia are the same thing, although this is better discussed on the talk page. And I'm happy to add individual refs for each illness in the psychosomatic article if that is what the consensus is. Again let's discuss it on the page for the article itself, not here. As I said in the talk page, the reason I removed the pov tag was because it was inappropriate in that case. --Sciencewatcher (talk) 17:19, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Guys, this is now a content discussion and belongs on Talk:Alternative names for chronic fatigue syndrome. I'm going to cut and paste this last bit there and reply there. Mangojuice 17:43, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

@SW: No, they don't. That's your pov. Stop basing your edits on it. Literature shopping to find that one poor study that in contrast to all the other publications halfway seems to support a statement, is not neutral editing either. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 19:03, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Foul language and verbal abuse

Hi: It would be greatly appreciated if an admin could look into what is taking place at Talk:Goy#Secondary symbolical meanings of goy where anonymous User 85.179.134.205 (talk · contribs) has crossed the bounds of all decency and declares his defiance of WP:CIVIL; WP:NPA; WP:AGF and WP:NOTBATTLEGROUND with choice comments like "the usual Misplaced Pages fuckers" "I've lost all respect for WP:CIVIL because of people like you. Pathetic Wikipedians" "Why don't you CHECK the fucking sources first?" . Thank you, IZAK (talk) 06:35, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

That user appears to already be under a block.--Tznkai (talk) 06:42, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

It happened almost simultaneously. An admin blocked him for a "short time" for violating WP:3RR (see User talk:85.179.134.205) but the above issues remain and reveal more serious problems. IZAK (talk) 06:46, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Tmpafford and anonymous sock attacks

“Phi Kappa Psi” has being repeatedly attacked from various IP numbers, including 65.66.204.17 (, , ). This IP number has a stable association with domain garzo.com. Please note the name of the person to whom that domain is registered; please note the middle initial of that person. The name maps perfectly to “Tmpafford”. User:Tmpafford has made the same unconstructive edit to “Phi Kappa Psi”, backing this simply with a personal attack. (I believe that a checkuser could associate Tmpafford with other anonymous attacks; I am going to request that checkuser.)

Tmpafford has been repeatedly warned about these acts of vandalism. Anon:65.66.204.17 has repeatedly been warned about these acts of vandalism.

I strongly urge that the account Tmpafford be blocked from editing Wikipdia until its owner agrees to stop vandalizing articles and to refrain from any use of anonymous accounts or named sockpuppets. I also urge that the stably assigned IP number 65.66.204.17 be blocked from editing for a long term or until it is no longer assigned to garzo.com. —SlamDiego_←T 07:07, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I have since filed a request for checkuser. —SlamDiego_←T 09:14, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

At this point, the checkuser has (unsurprisingly) confirmed 65.66.204.17 as Tmpafford. —SlamDiego_←T 21:17, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

User:138.217*136.17a et al.

User:138.217*136.17a was a sneaky vandalism-only account, now indefblocked. Shortly afterwards, User:138.217*136.17b was created, which I've also blocked. The account operator clearly knows their way around Misplaced Pages, as can be seen from the editing pattern and intentionally misleading edit summaries in their first edits. Given the consecutive creation of two sequentially-named accounts, and based on past experience, we can probably expect more actions from this vandal in the near future. -- The Anome (talk) 08:06, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Vandalising on meta as well. Daniel (talk) 08:16, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Note: the vandal has created m:User:138.217*136.17b1 on meta. Given that they are a sneaky vandal, we can probably regard their purported IP address as most likely being a lie, but just for interest's sake, IP 138.217.136.17 is owned by Telstra. Perhaps a checkuser might be appropriate? -- The Anome (talk) 08:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

It apparently wasn't sneaky enough, since you found it. :) Baseball Bugs 12:46, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Sarah Palin spillover to Feminists For Life

Could I get some assistance with this editor?
Dstern1 (talk · contribs) is deleting sourced information - that Palin is, or at least was, "pro-contraception" and inserting unsupported content attributed to 2008 Republican platform, which doesn't assert Palin believes or supports everything in the platform - although she certainly might support it in full. I have detailed the issues on the user's talkpage and even pointed them to the Palin talkpage where those much more familiar might be able to assist. Unfortunately they have continued to edit war on this. It might just need another voice involved but any advice or assistance appreciated, I don't want to simply revert back again. -- Banjeboi 12:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

This sounds like another connection-by-inference, as with her alleged connection with the Alaskan Independence Party, to try to infer that she believes in Alaskan secession. Meanwhile, I wonder what the FFL's position is on capital punishment. Any guesses? Baseball Bugs 12:43, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

They are opposed to the death penalty. Deli nk (talk) 13:02, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Kudos. Baseball Bugs 16:40, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

At this point, I'm willing to chalk this up to ignorance of policies. I've left the user a detailed note explaining the policies he may be violating and hopefully he'll shape up. Oren0 (talk) 17:04, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

You left your message on Dstern's talk page! I think you missed the point here: this complaint by Benjiboi is completely bogus. Benjiboi is trying to attribute positions to Palin that she doesn not support. Looie496 (talk) 18:59, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The warnings left for Dstern are indeed accurate on Dstern's page, as he is skating close to the line in all of those areas. GRBerry 19:37, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Looie496, I'm not a specialist in Palin's positions and have only relied on what reliable sources state, per NPOV if we have reliable sources that contradict each other we try to reconcile multiple viewpoints and let the reader decide what to believe. -- Banjeboi 00:09, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I hope that it is acceptable that I am responding here. I have given further explanation of my contention on the Feminists for Life talk page. It was never my intention to have a "war" as I have been accused. It is my intention to delete information no longer valid. After I gained further understanding of the rules, I have limited my edits to political positions which I contend that I have provided verification upon.Dstern1 (talk) 00:15, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Personal attack

User:09jcsherrard posted a comment on my talk page that says, hey punk dont be deleting my stuff, you know nothing bout the harly drags so stay out of my shit you stupid nerd, punk fag female thats all u, bitch

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Schuym1&oldid=237703644 Schuym1 (talk) 13:23, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

He's done it to a lot. I'd be tempted with blocking him. D.M.N. (talk) 13:26, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

From His User page i hate fags.im homophobic!!!! i am real good friends with User:HairyPerry. Nice.... I'd suspect possible SOCK issues here with HairyPerry but either way with that and the above diff I can't see how this account is helping build a collegial atmosphere never mind an encyclopedia. Pedro :  Chat  13:30, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I was going to suggest that in my previous comments. Any checkusers wishing to do checkuser? D.M.N. (talk) 13:38, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I issued a 31 hour block for the comment, but indef'ed after viewing his... rather colorful contributions. seicer | talk | contribs 13:43, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Good block. Anyone wish to check his "friend" HairyPerry (talk · contribs)? Some of the info on his userpage looks "revealing". D.M.N. (talk) 13:44, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I think it's a safe bet they they are the same. Look at ThinkBlue's talk page --

• 10:14, 11 September 2008 HairyPerry added in a section header
• 10:08, 11 September 2008 09jcsherrard added in a personal attack.

Going through the contribs... seicer | talk | contribs 13:47, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Since User:09jcsherrard has "i hate fags.im homophobic!!!!" on his user page, whilst User:HairyPerry has a straight but not narrow Userbox, perhaps they are indeed real world friends with differing opinions? ϢereSpielChequers 14:14, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

and on my talk page. seicer | talk | contribs 18:37, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

"This user is a high school student." Need I say more? Looie496 (talk) 18:49, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• Why is User:HairyPerry still not blocked? Are you waiting for a checkuser? user:Everyme 19:51, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

He hasn't actually been warned about anything, though I'm doing that right now with regards to his last comments to Seicer, above. Unlike his buddy, he has some positive contributions mixed in with occasional vandalism. Whether a CU turns up anything or not, I don't know, but I'll give him some free advice and see how it goes. Tony Fox (arf!) 20:10, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmmmm... So, if I wanted someone I did not care for ever so much (can't think of anyone, but it may happen!) blocked I might create a sock, write some abusive stuff to get me indef blocked, and casually mention I am a close friend of my targeted user. All I need hope for is that nobody does a CU, and my throwaway sock and My Mortal Enemy are removed from the site? Cool. BTW, I'm not saying 09jcsherrard is a sock - but they certainly appear to be kamikazeing at HairyPerry. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:41, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

User:Apollomix

Anyone admins up for blocking this user, Apollomix (talk · contribs), no non-vandalism edits to mainspace, attacks on other users, and someone elses userpage copy and pasted onto theirs, including false admin userbox, can't see any net gain from their account but not a regular case so no AIV--Jac16888 (talk) 13:32, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, me :) Blocked indef as utterly non-constructive account and per and . Thanks for the heads up. Pedro :  Chat  13:45, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and user page deleted under WP:CSD#G3 as a pack of lies. Pedro :  Chat  13:52, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Nice one, guess i can mark this resolved, thanks Pedro--Jac16888 (talk) 14:12, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

User:Seicer

Counter Productive / Incivil Remark

Incident A) - Derogatory Remark, Labling someone a trainwreck waiting to happen is a clearcut violation on WP:CIVIL and is certainly counter productive. Its allso borderline on WP:BAIT / WP:TROLL

Poor Judegement / Extention of Block

Incident B) The extention of a civilty block for so called "Abuse" of unblock templates. Reluctanty heeding two admins requests to reduce it back but not after labling me a trainwreck (hence the above). Serious concerns over knowlege of blocking policy because he still thinks the unblock template use was abuse. Can someone have a word to him, I understand he is a relativly new admin.   «l| Ψrom3th3ăn ™|l»  (talk) 14:08, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

As someone who use to use multiple unblock templates, I can say that yeah, its rather uncivil to do such (or, at least disruptive). Ottava Rima (talk) 14:11, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

After looking more carefully, "trainwreck" is not targeting any individuals. Its targeting a situation. I can parse out the sentence if necessary. Ottava Rima (talk)

wether trainwreck was directed or not is a matter of opinion but its removal would be a easy resolve.   «l| Ψrom3th3ăn ™|l»  (talk) 14:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

An easy action is not always a desirable action. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:17, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

(e/c) "Trainwreck" refers to the entire situation. When he doesn't assume good faith anymore and admits that he becomes "hostile" and "bitter" towards administrators -- after being blocked, having his rollback and account creator privileges revoked, banned from IRC for a duration for trolling, then the situation is a trainwreck that he helped create. I did extend his block, but after a courteous notice, I refactored it back to three hours -- which is just slightly shorter than the original block, and is a showing that I made a mistake, as has every administrator at one point or another. It's clear from his prior incidents, battling various administrators and his actions at IRC, that he no longer is a constructive contributor and is only picking and choosing his battles, to which I was warned of earlier that I'd be invoking a witchhunt. And no, I'm not a "new admin." seicer | talk | contribs 14:21, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Dont mis-constude my words again please. Also you refracted back the Account ban, but there was an extended duration of the auto block for unknown reasons that led to me be blocked logger than intended (perhaps your tinkering). Also a reptuable admin on IRC said you were relativly new   «l| Ψrom3th3ăn ™|l»  (talk) 14:30, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

If i were to say someone was "a hoar in the works" which is clear cut uncivilty, how is the implications of that different to "have fun with the train wreck you are all setting up" which is grey but still in vio of WP:TROLL / WP:CIVIL. Secondly all I want is to make sure that he does Not extend a block again for the reason he did mine, his comment reaks with "im right your wrong, but ill abide this time just so you can have fun with the train wreck you are all setting up". all I want is the remark removed and it made clear that you don't extend blocks for the reason he did mine and to use better judegement in the future   «l| Ψrom3th3ăn ™|l»  (talk) 14:38, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

that diff doesn't show a personal attack. And your statement of an "incident" here doesn't give anyone context for what the problem is. Protonk (talk) 14:19, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

We are still on this? I thought all the other admins reviewing the situation would've been enough. MBisanz 14:28, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Seriously, Prom3th3an even parroted back the train wreck comment on Seicer's talk page, stating "If im a train wreck, be careful, you might get hit." Obviously I can't read minds, but does that sound like somebody who was offended by the train wreck comment? Also, Seicer's comment had nothing to do with WP:TROLL. - auburnpilot talk 14:45, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

A Parady of the crime is not the same as initating it. "A troll deliberately exploits tendencies of human nature " He knew that remark, which is like reading me like a book would get to me, hence why he said it.   «l| Ψrom3th3ăn ™|l»  (talk) 14:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Just think - if they had unblocked Prom3th3an early, like he asked for, he wouldn't be doing this kind of attacking. Serves the admins right for keeping him blocked the full 24 hours, eh? Baseball Bugs 14:52, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

rofl, i mean hmph, this is a serious matter   «l| Ψrom3th3ăn ™|l»  (talk) 14:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Move that this entire situation be closed as Lame. Stern look at Promethean for laughing. Are we done now? KillerChihuahua 16:11, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I suppose   «l| Ψrom3th3ăn ™|l»  (talk) 16:52, 11 September 2008 (UTC) _{If all the worlds a stage, can i operate the trap door?}

• Prom3th3an is pushing his luck here to a remarkable degree. It is time to drop it and move on, or else his behaviour is likely to be considered disruptive. Guy (Help!) 17:46, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Regrettably, I find myself agreeing with this assessment. There is coming a time when community patience will run out. Orderinchaos 18:07, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
    • Agree. Closed as resolved. Moondyne 01:52, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Exposed password

See here. Someone needs to block For this reason a (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) pronto. Kww (talk) 14:16, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Vean aquí. Alguien necesita ser bloqueado. For this reason a (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Soon. 190.51.146.45 (talk) 14:19, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Looking over the IP, it all seems to be a bunch of nonsense and really weird.... I don't know. Did Jimbo really unblock here? Ottava Rima (talk) 14:23, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I tried to use it and that is not the password, so is not exposed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.51.146.45 (talk • contribs) 14:24, September 11, 2008

Blocked. And, uh, thanks for the translation, 190.51? -- Vary | Talk 14:26, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Several ec's later - PS, re Ottava's comment above comments - I checked before I blocked and it worked. It's been changed since - that's what happens when you share your password, eh? If the account holder is the one who changed it, and they post an unblock request, it may well be granted, but at the time of the block they were intentionally sharing access to the account. And no, Jimbo didn't grant the unblock request you linked to. -- Vary | Talk 14:37, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

ok19O.51.146.45 (talk) 14:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Why are you editing from a new user account that is oddly similar to 190.51.146.45 above? seicer | talk | contribs 14:50, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Also note 193.22222O (talk · contribs) Verbal chat 14:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Didn't there used to be a line in the username policy prohibiting usernames that resemble IP addresses? It seems it's no longer there. - auburnpilot talk 14:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for checking, Vary. I had a large suspicion that Jimbo wouldn't be using "Attention This IP address" as a screen name. Can we have that IPs talk page protected? Or semi-protected? It seems to just fill will problematic material. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:58, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Kvvvvv (talk · contribs) blocked indef for impersonating the creator of this topic. D.M.N. (talk) 15:19, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• Rangeblock applied. Looking for more. Thatcher 20:09, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Reversions by user JBSupreme

I understand that unsourced material can be removed, but that does not mean that it necessarily should be. User:JBsupreme consistently takes long, in-depth article and reduces them to sentences because they are not sourced. In this case, a list of rappers of southern origin does not need to be sourced. A person is from where they are from, that is all. The same goes for much of the rest of the article's removed information. What he had done recently to Southern hip hop is my most recent example. He removed 20 thousand bytes of relevant, factually correct information. I know many of you will say that it is unsourced, but it is practically unnecessary. Do I really need to source the sentence which says that Miami bass music genre is from Miami? He is purposefully ruining articles so that they are later deleted. He has done this with 5 Elementz, Detroit hip hop and other articles, slowly, covertly chipping away sentences until all that remains is a worthless sentence, as in Southern hip hop. He must be stopped. I reported this under edit warring but I believe it is more likely vandalism.Cosprings (talk) 14:32, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

This is a content dispute and you are forum shopping it, without even notifying User:JBsupreme. I see zero talk page edits of your last 50 edits, which gives me the impression you aren't trying very hard to resolve this matter with him. I suggest you try that first.--Atlan (talk) 15:00, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I've tried that of course and there is just no convincing him in the error of his ways. Someone reverted the southern hip hop article yet again, and he has yet again removed 20k bytes of information. Cosprings (talk) 16:55, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

No need to inform me, I see the forum shopping that Cosprings is doing. He is welcome to provide reliable sources for the information he keeps trying to reintroduce. I have zero objection to that. JBsupreme (talk) 16:58, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

a list of rappers of southern origin does not need to be sourced - um, no, everything should be sourced, and if someone requests a source and none is provided, removal of the unsourced material is not correct, it's required. Corvus cornix_talk 19:49, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Wrong. Not everything has to be sourced. We have fact tags, we don't delete non-contentious material just because it doesn't have a source, and we don't require a source for common knowledge. And while Cosprings should have gone to JB's talk page first, any look at the page and its history reveals that JB does not respond to such inquiries. He merely reverts them or ignores them and blanks them later. He also reverts warnings and ignores them, all while counseling other editors not to remove warnings from their talk pages, reverting and edit warring with them on their own talk pages. His edits over the past few weeks show him repeatedly removing biographical sections, discographies, birth dates and locations. This is not information that should be removed per BLP. Fact tags. His edit summary usage is atrocious as well. These are all things I warned him about on his talk page earlier today. It was one of, I believe, three five warnings on his talk page today, at least two three from admins. Jennavecia 00:53, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Another admin warning was just placed on his talk page. Jennavecia 01:50, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Threats against an admin from User:166.109.0.238

This: I'm sure George can take care of himself, but maybe another admin will want to issue the next lengthy block against 166.109.0.238. Baseball Bugs 14:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Blocked for a couple of weeks. - Rjd0060 (talk) 14:58, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

And now an apparent sockpuppet called User:Georgeherbertww. Baseball Bugs 15:02, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I've blocked that account also. Thanks for letting us know. - Rjd0060 (talk) 15:06, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Death threat made against User:Georgewilliamherbert

I have recently come across a death threat made by an anonymous user on another user's talkpage which I feel should be brought to your attention. Judging from my brief look at Georgewilliamherbert's contribution's I would guess this is one of the troublesome users with which he has been dealing with recently who obviously didn't take kindly to his actions. It's highly unlikely this threat would ever come to anything, but even so, I felt you guys should be made aware of this. Bettia (rawr CRUSH!) 15:02, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

See the above section, which I've now merged this to. - Rjd0060 (talk) 15:06, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

WP:TOV. Probably needs oversight. D.M.N. (talk) 15:09, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The IP resolves back to a school district: it's probably worth an attempt at contact. I doubt they're interested in having threats issued from their system. Acroterion _(talk) 15:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

File a WP:ABUSE report, Ill contact them in the morning. Hopefully it keep me out of trouble ;)   «l| Ψrom3th3ăn ™|l»  (talk) 15:41, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm writing something to them right now. I'll wait an hour or so to send it, in case people decide that's a bad idea. Abuse report likely a good idea anyways, though. Cheers, everyone. lifebaka++ 15:44, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Lol i was in the process of the same thing, use thier help desk link on thier website. Be firm about the seriousness of a deaththreat and provide a link. Do not oversight the network admins will want to see it.   «l| Ψrom3th3ăn ™|l»  (talk) 15:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I sent mine too. Nothing else needed, IMO. Oversight seems sorta' like overkill here, as I don't think many people could take that seriously. Cheers. lifebaka++ 16:10, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

If you're sure where it came from, go ahead. What's the worst they could do? Use a gigantic paddle on the offender, as 21 states allow in the USA? Baseball Bugs 15:50, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

 Done Contact made, ive sent the diff. dont oversight for at least a few days   «l| Ψrom3th3ăn ™|l»  (talk) 16:00, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Baseball Bugs: Most schools these days have responsible computer use policies (my high school did, and my college has about fifty of them). I'm pretty sure making threats doesn't fit within those; usually, violations result in loss of computer rights at the school (as in they'll delete your login so you can't even get on), some form of judicial action (in a middle/high school, this'll probably be telling the parents and/or detention), etc. Most likely the school will do something to put a stop to it. Hersfold 16:06, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure they do. The main point is to be sure you've got the right source. You don't want anyone getting slapped for the wrong reason. Baseball Bugs 16:09, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

We have the right source, WHOIS and RDNS support it. More importantly the techs at that school will know what ip range they use and will check before they go through proxy logs to hang the person by thier thumbs :P   «l| Ψrom3th3ăn ™|l»  (talk) 16:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Hence the expression, "rule of thumb". Baseball Bugs 16:38, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Reply Brett, Thanks for the information. We are a consortium which provides Internet access to schools in the Southern New York area. We have narrowed it down to one school district and have notified the administration about this incident. We take threats like this seriously and will investigate with the information we currently have. Any new information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Mike.   «l| Ψrom3th3ăn ™|l»  (talk) 17:45, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Since it's an anonymous user anyway, all we can give them is the diff. A checkuser's not going to come up with anything of use here. Hersfold 17:59, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

im aware of that, ive given them the url the user would have had to have accessed to make that edit. using proxy logs they should be able to catch em.   «l| Ψrom3th3ăn ™|l»  (talk) 18:08, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, everyone. There's a very persistent vandal in the New York City region who's more upset than average that I have IP range blocked them repeatedly... They're not a very good stalker, but they're very persistent, and as you saw can get sort of nasty / threatening... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:36, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

User:207.230.203.234

Blocked 10 times, last block was on the 5th of sept but was oddly only for 24 hrs. User has vandalised since. Requesting 1 year block per two blocks ago.   «l| Ψrom3th3ăn ™|l»  (talk) 18:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

 Done. PhilKnight (talk) 18:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

WP:AIV for future reference. John Reaves 20:00, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

AIV is for active vandals (this second) this vandal was active hours ago I thinks. Hence ANI ;) 203.122.240.118 (talk) 22:14, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Disruption at Calgary Flames

I stepped on AGK's toes here a little bit—while this isn't resolved, it's not AN/I time yet, and if necessary, I will repost a similar message. Maxim (☎) 21:05, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• Just what exactly is wrong with Fasach Nua's NFIO tag? It looks absolutely correct to me. Black Kite 00:03, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

• Aside from the lack of discussion, the disruption, editing against consensus, attempting to bully process to get his way and WP:POINT violations? Resolute 02:20, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

User:Ohmygod1234

• Ohmygod1234 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I'm going to drop this in an admin's lap. Today, I nominated Interpersonal (Aliana Lohan Album) for deletion, as it appears to me the article has been essentially fabricated out of whole cloth. When I went to drop notice/warning on the creator's talk page, I discovered that Ohmygod1234 has been warned numerous times:5 final warnings for disruptive editing, and innumerable lower levels. Image deletion notices for improper licenses. Image deletion notices for copyright violations. Speedy deletion notices for reposting deleted material.

Looking at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ashlee Simpson's Forthcoming Album, it appears that this same editor also created that article, which was deemed to be a hoax (something that Everyking and I agreed on, an event worth taking note of). Someone should check the history of this article, and correct me if I'm wrong: I believe it was Ohmygod1234, but I can't see the article history to verify it as I write.

How many final warnings does this editor get before someone starts using the block stick to get the point across?Kww (talk) 20:31, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

You're correct that Ashlee Simpson's Forthcoming Album was created by Ohmygod1234. No comment on their other contribs yet. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 20:35, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I also have serious concerns about this user; it's not clear to me that any of the content this user adds is factual, and certainly a large portion of it is pure fiction. Everyking (talk) 20:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Blocked

I've blocked the editor, at least until they address the numerous concerns expressed by several editors. At the very least, there is a serious misunderstanding about what Misplaced Pages is about. — Coren  22:35, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

User:Barton Foley notability tags

Could someone please take a look at the large number of notability tags being placed by this editor, including to major novels by science fiction writer William Gibson, and to films which seen clearly notable? I can't tell if this is just a massive one-man cleanup effort or if there's something WP:POINTy about it. Thanks. Ed Fitzgerald 21:17, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Please note that the editor made his first edit on 25 August 2008. Ed Fitzgerald 21:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

A random sampling of the user's contributions to film-related articles reveals the addition of prod tags to many that aren't notable, so we're OK on that score. But there does seem to be little or no checking for notability on his part before he adds the tags. Just because an article doesn't currently cite reliable secondary sources, that doesn't necessarily mean that its topic is not notable. It may just lack a citation that can easily be found with a twenty-second Google search (indeed, this has been the case for a couple of inappropriately tagged articles). So I guess his use of the tag isn't wholly appropriate in this case, without those cursory checks for notability. I left a note on his talk page to this effect after a concern was raised at WP:FILM, and before it was raised here; I suggest waiting for a response to my and other editors' concerns before further action is taken. All the best, Steve 21:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

That's fine, but I do want to point out that the editor created The Forlorn Hope, an article about a science fiction novel by David Drake, and another editor tagged it with a notability tag. The tagging editor chided Barton Foley, and Foley answered:

Given the standing of David Drake in the science fiction community and his well regarded body of work, sumaries on his individual books, particularly those that have been re-issued due to their popularity should meet the notability threashold, despite the guidelines of notability. There exists many books on Misplaced Pages that do not meet the guidelines for notability, but are still granted entries due to their otehr notable qualities, outside the realm of movie adpatations and awards. (Emphasis added)

It was only after this that Barton Foley went on a tear tagging for notability. I'm afraid that seems pretty WP:POINTy to me. Ed Fitzgerald 02:13, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Review of the unblock of Dark Tea

Dark Tea (talk · contribs) was today blocked for three months by Moreschi (talk · contribs) with the following reason: "Incredible amounts of disruption: this user has basically fouled up our entire "race" topic area". This was Dark Tea's first block.

Dark Tea subsequently requested to be unblocked. Upon my review of his request, it became apparent that Moreschi had been engaged in a content dispute on Caucasian race with Dark Tea, as shown here and confirmed in the block notification. This means that the block patently violated the blocking policy, which states: "Administrators must not block users with whom they are engaged in a content dispute".

I have therefore lifted the block without consultation with the blocking admin, but I am reporting my action here for community review. I'm also notifying Moreschi of this thread. (I have not reviewed the underlying content dispute, whose subject matter does not interest me, which means that I have no opinion about the merits of either side's arguments).  Sandstein  22:34, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh, come Sandstein. You knew better than just unblock without at least making an attempt at talking with Moreschi. I agree the block might be iffy, and should probably have been lifted, but doing it that way is a call for drama. Wheel wars start like that. — Coren  22:39, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I'll dually agree with that. There is no rush to unblock, given the incredible messes Dark Tea has created. At least, we could have gotten some dialogue from the blocking administrator before performing an unblock -- to which you know the only end result would be disdain towards the unblocking administrator (you) and possible wheel warring. There were many other ways you could have handled this better. seicer | talk | contribs 22:45, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I would normally have contacted Moreschi first. However, WP:APB allows for unilateral overrides of clearly unjustifiable blocks. My lifting of the block allows Dark Tea to participate in the present discussion. If consensus develops here that the block was indeed justified, or that another sanction (such as a topic ban) is needed, I will not oppose it and indeed help enforce it.  Sandstein  22:45, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I think in the interest of all parties involved, we should gain new consensus on whether a block of three months (+/-) is required. seicer | talk | contribs 22:47, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

There is pretty much never ever a need for an involved admin to block. Taking it here first would have been the way to avoid drama. IronDuke 22:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• As I say below, involved how? If I actually thought ANI would get a profitable result and had much faith in my fellow admins to recognise the problem, I would indeed have come here. To seicer: thank you. A block will not be needed if we can agree to a topic-ban from race articles. Moreschi (talk) 22:50, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• I appreciate your efforts in trying to maintain the quality of our articles about this obviously difficult topic, but as soon as you removed content by Dark Tea on the basis of its (perceived lack of) encyclopedic merit, you became involved in a content dispute with him, and ought not to have blocked him. You might, however, have asked another admin to do it, or you might have suggested a topic ban in an appropriate forum.  Sandstein  22:57, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Well, per the diff Sandstein cites. I see that there is much you reverted. How much was nonsense by Dark Tea, I have not checked deeply enought to see, but I don't think it all was (not even saying, BTW, that I disagree with your reversion). But saying you don't have faith in your fellow admins means that you are essentially out of step with policy consensus. Is your way better than this consensus? Quite possibly. But most admins -- most editors -- feel that way as well. If they all acted on it, this place would simply shut down. IronDuke 23:00, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• As I say: Number 46 - this barely qualifies as a "content dispute" at all. Moreschi (talk) 23:02, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I find you quoting yourself persuasive here, nor does it answer why it is that you won't use a community aproved forum to double-check your actions. I also see (correct me, please, if I'm wrong) that you never even warned him -- your block was the first communication on his talk page. IronDuke 23:08, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Arguably he was warned at the FTN thread. He chose to ignore that, and the fact that consensus found his edits unacceptable, and started reverting. Moreschi (talk) 23:09, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I see no warning there. IronDuke 23:16, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Admin agnosticism

I'm getting increasingly frustrated. Here we have one user - Dark Tea (talk · contribs) who, over three years of editing on obscure racial and UFO articles, has managed to mess a huge amount of them up. Take a look at at this - the bits in italics and the lengthy quotations are usually all him - (admin only this, the rest aren't) , , , not to mention Stereotypes of white people, Afro-Asian, and Mongoloid race as they stand. You don't need to know anything about race to see that Dark Tea is creating havoc here. So, I have a go at cleaning some of this hopeless junk up, and he starts reverting. I block him for 3 months for his 3 years of disruption: Sandstein promptly unblocks, citing the miserable blocking policy. I'm sorry, but this may just be one instance where the encyclopedia trumps procedure. I don't mind Dark Tea getting unblocked per se, but if so, I desperately need some help cleaning up his various messes. Moreschi (talk) 22:38, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Have you considered bringing this editor to the attention of another admin, then? While I very much disagree with Sandstein's unilateral unblock, I am forced to agree that a three month block from an admin who has had content disputes with the blockee was an iffy move. You were under no obligaton to effect a block yourself, and it's understandable that another admin might think you were too involved to act impartially. — Coren  22:44, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

What content dispute? There's a difference between a bona fide genuine dispute and me trying to remove this useless crap and him trying to retain it. This is classic Number 46, again. This is ordinary maintenance/disruption prevention: no rational person could possibly think that any valid content was under dispute here. Moreschi (talk) 22:46, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh, please. This is a perfect case to WP:IAR. That guy is worthless and will probably end up blocked again, and again, and again, until he gets indefed. Jtrainor (talk) 22:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Moreschi may well be right with his assessment of the value of Dark Tea's contributions, but may I please strongly suggest that we do not call other people "worthless"?  Sandstein  22:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• Oh, no, Dark Tea is certainly not worthless. AGF is perfectly valid here: he's quite sincere. Unfortunately, his bizarre mix of racialist and non-racialist theories make it bloody hard to work out what's going on: his writing style is unbelievably unencyclopedic, and his contribution quality is generally awful - it's quotefarm after quotefarm, occasionally POV-pushing, with no attempt to establish context. What's worse, he has a terrible habit of uncritically reporting the very worst of archaic (centuries-old) sources, and then claiming they're somehow reliable and thus sacred. And the UFO stuff was so left-field I'm still recovering from the shock. Misplaced Pages:Competence is required applies here, I think. Moreschi (talk) 22:57, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

1. Was the original block appropriate? Probably not, but irrelevant since it has already been undone.
2. Was the unblock appropriate? Probably not, since there was no discussion about the suitability of the original block.
3. Is a block for disruption appropriate. Discuss. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 22:58, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

A new block seems appropriate. Verbal chat 23:01, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The block was improper, and I don't believe it would be correct to go straight to a block at this time even if Moreschi's analysis is entirely correct. First, let's determine whether there is a problem; then, if the editing is found to be problematic, let's hope that Dark Tea will take the right lessons from that. A block might be appropriate down the line, depending on how things go, but not now. Everyking (talk) 23:39, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Topic-ban from race articles

I have submitted the necessary evidence above. Please look carefully through all my links (also worth noting that Dark Tea is a classic SPA. Discuss. Moreschi (talk) 23:04, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I think there's room for at least one warning before any topic ban, no? IronDuke 23:09, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

He's already been told at WP:FTN#Caucasian race that his editing is not on. He just ignored that with a snarky comment and started reverting. Also, this is not a newbie: he's been doing this since August 2005. Concerns must have been raised before. Moreschi (talk) 23:10, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

There was no warning there that I could see. IronDuke 23:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

well, arguably, two people saying "this article you wrote is horrible - and your style is horrible too" counts as a warning that you need to rethink your approach. And it's reasonable to assume that he read the thread, which contained lots of warnings, before he started reverting today. Moreschi (talk) 23:18, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I read the thread as full of complaints -- most likely quite well justified -- but a complaint is not a warning. "Dark Tea, knock it off or you will get blocked" is a warning. IronDuke 23:21, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and that's exactly the sort of warning we don't need for a topic-ban. He's already been told his editing is horrible and sanctionable: judging by his reverts today he won't change it. Furthermore, someone who has messed up an entire topic-area can surely be topic-banned without warnings (which he got): and after 3 years, too. What more do you need? Moreschi (talk) 23:24, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't think a topic ban is out of line. The diffs are damning, and there does appear to be a long-term pattern of doing poor edits with little or no discussion, no care for consensus, and quite a bit of dismissive attitude. There might not have been any explicitly worded warnings, but that does not mean that the editor wasn't very well aware that his behavior was unacceptable. (Which is, after all, the point of a warning: not as a ceremonial "rule of engagement" or as a Miranda warning, but as a genuine concern that the editor might actually not know his behavior is out of line— something which is not an issue here). — Coren  23:51, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

No, the point of a warning is that it carries an "or else." That's what makes it different from "user is not listening." It isn't ceremonial, it's how WP works. IronDuke 00:07, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

No, it is not. It is a courtesy borne out of assumed good faith and a presumption of ignorance, rather than avoidance, of the rules. Someone who has been here for years either knows the rules he choses to break, or they are beyond his understanding. In either case, an "or else" will only delay the inevitable sanction and cause more damage to repair: he either already chose not to behave or is incapable of doing so. — Coren  00:44, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Most "or else's" do delay the inevitable. Nevertheless, people who contribute here for three years are entitled to at least one warning. That's just common sense. IronDuke 00:52, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, that's entirely backwards. Vested contributors are one of Misplaced Pages's biggest problems; and someone who's been contributing for years definitely should know better already. A warning is neither useful nor required. — Coren  01:04, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

That link didn't work for me. I believe it is you who have it backwards. The warning may not prove useful, but it is absolutely required in situations such as these. IronDuke 01:28, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree and disagree with different thoughts here: First, I agree that Moreschi made a bad block. I see no attempt by Moreschi to post a caution to Dark Tea's talkpage, or indeed, any communication there whatsoever. Instead, Moreschi jumped straight to a 90-day block, with a clearly emotional block message. However, I also agree that Sandstein should have posted a note to Moreschi's talkpage first, before overturning the block. Then again, this was a block that pretty clearly needed to be overturned. I disagree (with respect) with Coren, who says that a warning is not necessary to a vested contributor. In my opinion, we should always try to issue warnings, especially to vested contributors. Only with anons and obvious vandalism-only accounts should we block without notice. See also WP:BLOCK#Education and warnings. --Elonka 01:38, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

That's pretty much my point, Elonka. The point of warnings is to educate, and they are pointless one someone who unarguably already knows what you'd warn them about. — Coren  01:53, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Looking at recent history, it seems most people have talked about him, not to him. Would it kill us all to start there and see what comes of it? AFAICT, this user is making decent contributions (possibly in tandem with rather not-so-decent ones). I think he's owed a tiny bit of leeway, considering how we give obvious trolls chance after chance after chance. IronDuke 02:00, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Coren, the "unarguably" is the problematic part there. Moreschi says that Dark Tea has "messed up" race-related articles for three years. Well okay, where's the paper trail? An editor causing that many problems would normally have multiple warnings on their talkpage, a swath of blocks, complaints, ANI threads, RfCs, mediations (or attempts), and so forth. A few of which Moreschi could have diffed to Dark Tea's talkpage. Instead, there's one very vague message from Moreschi, which makes it look like Moreschi has just decided all by his lonesome to block a longstanding contributor for three months, without warning, from a topic area where Moreschi is active. This is a very very bad idea. What if all admins did that, made unilateral decisions to block long-standing contributors without warning? No, WP:AGF requires that we assume people are acting in the best interests of the project. If someone's behavior is veering off the road, then they deserve at least a warning shot across the bow, to let them know that there's a problem. We shouldn't just assume, "Well gee, they should've known it was coming." --Elonka 02:03, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

That's not an unreasonable position, although I'm a more than a little sceptical that it is, in practice, more than an extraordinarily rare occurrence. At any rate, I agree that in the present case a warning would have been a Good Thing; and that Moreschi has probably jumped the gun in frustration. I'm disputing that there is a sine qua non requirement that a warning be explicitly given, especially to longstanding editors. — Coren  02:11, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Conclusion

After reading through pretty much all of the diffs here I have concluded that a topic ban from race-related articles is completely justified here, and I have placed a note to that effect on the editor's talkpage. Black Kite 23:47, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The matter hasn't been discussed in depth, and I don't see consensus for a topic ban at this point. I'd much prefer to see this user given some suggestions on how to improve, with a caution that the existing editing problems could not be allowed to continue. There is no need to risk frustrating or alienating anyone at this stage. Everyking (talk) 00:00, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Not only has it not been discussed in depth, the user in question has not had a chance to reply. Yeesh. I find myself getting frustrated when problem users are given ten "final" warnings before getting booted -- but this user is given none, and no chance to explain/apologize/promise to mend ways. IronDuke 00:05, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Seriously, have a look at the contribs. He's broken so many articles with his mish-mash of pseudo-scientific claptrap that it's untrue. If this user really wants to contribute to the encyclopedia, he can prove that he can do it on other articles first. Having said that, if an uninvolved admin wants to try a different tack, feel free to remove my topic ban and mentor him (or similar) - I'd be fine with that. Black Kite 00:14, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I took a quick look, found this, which looks like a pretty good edit, this edit looks fine to me – I could be missing something. And this?. Again, I’m just skimming, but is that a bad edit? Bad faith? Removed this uncited statement, which is fine by me. I’m sure there must be examples of nonsense, people are probably not getting fed up for no reason, but again, a 3-year contributor gets the benefit of our process. IronDuke 00:47, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

• I have informed the editor in question of this thread. It seemed the polite thing to do. DuncanHill (talk) 01:30, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus and Boodlesthecat edit warring on Controversies of the Polish–Soviet War

Bringing this to WP:ANI for more eyes. This 3RR report was closed as stale; however, from some perspectives this appears to be more of a classic two-editor edit war focused on a genuine content dispute. The talk page of the article describes the concerns about the content being added by Piotrus. The history of the article shows that Boodlesthecat requested Piotrus to take this to the talk page of the article. The article is now protected. Question: How best to address a situation where there is a clear edit war, one of the warriors is an administrator who promptly posts a 3RR request even before discussing the concerns raised on the talk page of the article. Ideas anyone? Oh. Please note that Piotrus is also a named party to an RFAR, in which Boodlesthecat has given evidence. Risker (talk) 00:59, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I was the user who closed the 3RR report. After reviewing the case I saw a clear content dispute between two users who have a very clear history of bad interactions with one another. While Boodlesthecat did in fact violate 3RR, that does not make Piotrus exempt from WP:EDITWAR (which is clearly what he was involved in). Personally, I would hope that common sense would have kicked in on Piotrus part seeing as he is an experienced editor and a admin, whom is currently going through a RfAr, but that was not the case. I am thinking that some form of topic ban is in order (those two staying away from one another, 1RR, or something) until ArbCom makes their ruling. Also, if I would have got to the report earlier (before the report was stale) I would have blocked both parties. Tiptoety 01:05, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

And so have I (Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Piotrus_2/Evidence#Special_case:_Boodlesthecat). As the evidence shows, discussion with Boodes (who never admits he is wrong) goes nowhere (and anyway, his discussion style includes sending others @ "you are a dick" or accusing them of antisemitism). There is a reason why a mediator from our case has resigned and is now supporting me at ArbCom. Past evidence shows Boody will not shy from edit warring, and will revert war till he is blocked (see his block log) or till enough different editors revert him that the article gets protected and/or he gives up and moves to another article. Alas, if he can break the 3RR with impunity, why should we bother reverting him at all? I am considering ignoring his edits - if I revert him, I only fall into WP:EDITWAR, apparently. If the community has suggestions what can be done before ArbCom reaches its decision, it would be appreciated. Somewhat frustrated, --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 01:11, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

ANI isn't the right place to be judging Arbcom evidence. We lack the deliberation and process of an RFAR. If the situation is so bad, maybe someone ought to propose a temporary injunction at the RFAR, pending a final decision. MBisanz 02:03, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

It's an interesting proposition. Some form of 1RR on affected articles (topics?) may be a solution here, but how to phrase it properly? Any suggestions? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 02:14, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I attempt whenever possible to stay uninvolved in these sorts of things. I'm sure a clerk could give you some past examples. MBisanz 02:17, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

While the RfAr is somewhat relevant, I would like to note that it is not the reason this thread was started. The issue here is more specific and could be easily resolved by simply staying away from each other, but neither seem to want to do that. Tiptoety 02:28, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Piotrus would like you to overlook the fact that it takes two to tango. If there is an edit war, there are at least two warriors. While pointing to Boodlethecat's block history, Piotrus neglects to mention the admonitions he has received that 3RR is not an entitlement. This is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. — ] (] · ]) 02:44, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I most certainly agree, and I think that Piotrus fails to see that it takes two to edit war. Either way, the reason for this thread was to get some form of resolution to this issue, not simply sit around and throw rocks at Piotrus. I am more than willing to write up a proposal, but I would like to hear from others before I do as to if they even feel that a topic ban would be appropriate here. Tiptoety 02:50, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

1. "CFS Toolkit for Health Care Professionals: Basic CFS Overview" (PDF file, 31 KB). U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Retrieved 2008-03-19. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

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