Revision as of 21:09, 9 October 2008

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Important informationShortcuts WP:AE WP:ARE Please use this page only to: request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator, request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic, request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators. For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. 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Edit this section for new requests

Breach of 1RR on Troubles Article

After a long a protracted discussion here, all Troubles related articles were placed under a 1RR restriction. Notification was placed on the Ulster Defence Regiment article here, though editors were aware of this decision. Since the Arbitration Enforcement closed The Thunderer, has set about reverting editors work, despite the restrictions IMO. They engaged almost immediately in a revert war here, here and here.

The subsequently went on to revert editors work here and here, types of edits which lent itself to the origional dispute. They then reverted my edit here, after I had just added this text here.

This prompted Rockpocket to post a reminder on their talk page here, and BigDunc suggested likewise and to exercise some caution with this type of editing in light of sanctions. These type of edits had given rise to the above mentioned AE.

I then made a number of sourced and referenced editions to the article here, here and here. However despite both Rockpockets and BigDunc’s advice, The Thunderer set about reverting regardless, describing the reverts as rewriting opening section and Rewriting section. It is obvious that the text was simply removed.

In addition to this they have made a number of reverts which are IMO written towards a particular POV, such as here, here, and here. The reason I raise these two is that Spartaz had pacifically raised this matter on the talk page here, and only today raised it again here. The introduction of unsourced text, in addition to not keeping to our policy of WP:NPOV.

Since the AE the editor has refused to assume good faith, and has on each tread made a number of comments about me. They accused me of wanting to do a hatchet job on the article, and was asked to stop. They then said I was only adding Catholic or Nationalist opinion suggesting that I should resist the temptation to put in material which is detrimental to their image, and that we shouldn't give too much weight to the controversy because that's a matter of opinion. They then suggested that they were going to have a look through the article at some point and delete a load of it. I objected of course, but as seen above they paid no mind. They then suggested I was using the article as a condemnation, and that this was my sole purpose in editing this article. Suggesting that if I "don't moderate this pro-Nationalist editing style then their going to have to involve ArbCom." They then went on to suggest I change my modus operandi and if I don't remove the information then they will take it further.

I would like to have this addressed, as I'm trying to move on to some other articles like here and here, as well as addressing vandalism on other WP:IR articles such as here and here. This editor appears to be a WP:SPA account with a clear case of WP:OWN, which is all well and good as long as they do not edit against policy, or keep making accusations. --Domer48_'fenian' 20:19, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

User:John Nevard with regards to Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Mantanmoreland's decisions

This account, which was a self-identified alternate account , has been invested on editing a number of articles covered under the above named Arbitration case, including Short (finance), and Overstock.com. I made an attempt to warn him of the Arbitration Committee's directive that all editors must edit these articles under their main account, and he rebuffed it. . User:Lar attempted to discuss the fact that John Nevard had previously self-identified the account as an alternate account, and John Nevard rebuffed that as well, see: .

So, per: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Mantanmoreland#Editors_instructed (I've copied the section that directly applies here)

1) Any current or future editor who, after this decision is announced, makes substantial edits to naked short selling, Overstock.com, Patrick M. Byrne, Gary Weiss, or closely related pages or discussions on any page is directed:

(A) To edit on these from only a single user account, which shall be the user's sole or main account

Passed 11 to 0 at 21:12, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

This may need CheckUser involvement to determine if the John Nevard account IS the sole or main account in use here, but until such time as that has been confirmed by either a checkuser or ArbCom member, I am formally asking that User:John Nevard be topic banned from articles covered under the Mantanmoreland ArbCom case. SirFozzie (talk) 06:44, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

User:John Nevard contacted me by email (as this edit summary indicated would happen) and asserted that the "real name" account referred to in was no longer in use, had not been for some time, and that JN was now the sole account being used, and thus was not in violation of the multiple account restriction. I carried out a CU investigation but I want to consult with at least one other CU about what the results indicate before I'm willing to discuss it further than to say I was puzzled by it. A topic ban may not be warranted, although JN's bedside manner isn't the greatest. ++Lar: t/c 10:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Lar reached similar views as I have. In light of Mantanmoreland's past I would not like to definitively rule out anything, and I would suggest close watching of the articles (nothing new there)... but overall at present the evidence tentatively (and subject to change if needed) tends to support that John Nevard is probably a separate person. To underline, technical tools are not "magic pixie dust"; watchful eyeballs are one of the best safeguards of quality. I would like to also check with Lar any extra matters he may be aware of as he has looked into it further.

I also concur with Lar in a second area. As JN is surely aware by his edits, the whole Overstock/naked shorting area is high profile and has been the focus of considerable disruption on Misplaced Pages. If you continue editing this area, please be very careful to ensure you do so to a high standard of editing quality, and focus on the content, not removal of matters concerning Mantanmoreland. To be direct, this does not show good judgement in such an area. FT2  14:00, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Nod. That removal is perhaps not directly the subject of an ArbCom sanction but it's terrifically bad form to remove a notice of something that way, and also rather bad form to repeatedly be snarky about it in responses, as JN was. John Nevard may not, in the end, fall afoul of this particular restriction but he's sailing close to the wind, in my view, to ending up being viewed as a (at least mildly) disruptive and tendentious editor by a significant fraction of our userbase. Which is not a good spot to be in if your goal is reasonable edits that stand review by your peers. ++Lar: t/c 15:02, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Lar, there is no indication that John Nevard is close to "ending up being viewed as a (at least mildly) disruptive and tendentious editor by a significant fraction of our userbase"; unless, of course, by "our userbase" you mean the userbase of a certain off-wikipedia attack site that seems obsessed with him, among others. Jayjg 00:54, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

No, I mean a significant fraction of the editors of Misplaced Pages. I make no reference to anything else. I hope that clarifies matters. ++Lar: t/c 04:53, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

As Will points out, it's probably best not to speculate that an editor in good standing, who has no history of problematic edits, might "end up" being viewed in some pejorative way. Jayjg 00:00, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

And, as FT2 points out, statements like, "an editor...who has not history of problematic edits" with regard to Nevard are false. Cla68 (talk) 00:45, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Since FT2 never "points out", it is actually your statement that is false. Jayjg 01:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that coming into a discussion with BADSITES attacks is not useful, and can also be considered "(at least) mildy disruptive and tendentious" by a significant part of Misplaced Pages as well, Jayjg. SirFozzie (talk) 01:00, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

And I suggest that injecting the spurious "BADSITES" meme into the conversation is not useful, and can also be considered "(at least) mildy disruptive and tendentious" by a significant part of Misplaced Pages as well, SirFozzie. Anyway, isn't that Dtobias's job? Jayjg 01:13, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah... how dare anybody bring up the BADSITES meme without getting my permission first... I WP:OWN it! *Dan T.* (talk) 14:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Is there any evidence that Nevard user is viewed as a "disruptive and tendentious editor"? Has he been reverted frequently? From the edits of his to articles that I watch he appears to be helpful and to follow WP norms. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

No there is not. But that's not what I said. What I said was a prediction, that if John Nevard continues "sailing close to the wind" he will end up being viewed that way. It was not a remark about current state. I stand behind that prediction, based on my experience. I hope that clears up matters. ++Lar: t/c 04:56, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying your statement. But predictions like that may not be the best way of resolving a problem. I suppose someone could predicting that I, or you, would come to be viewed as disruptive, and they could brushing aside requests for evidence since predictions aren't accusations. How could we respond? By claiming our crystal ball was clearer? By making a bet? If there is sockpuppeting here let's focus on that. If we have evidence of disruption and violations then WP:AE and WP:AI are appropriate places to discuss them. If all we have are gut predictions of future disruptions by an editor in apparently good standing (no blocks or paroles) then the appropriate places to discuss those would be, um, somewhere off-wiki. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:11, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Nod. However, as others point out, it's more than just a gut feeling... FT2 is spot on in pointing out that there are problematic comments that are clear warning signs here. You may not agree, but I find that one rather troublesome. Quibble about what it is exactly, if you like (tendntious, disruptive, or just snarky) but it's not good. Normally I don't get quite this analytic but this is a special case. Editors who edit in this area should try to be LESS snarky than average, rather than more. ++Lar: t/c 11:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd say FT2's comment: To be direct, this does not show good judgement in such an area. would point to disruptive and tendentiousness, as well as his edit summaries, Will. Have you familiarized yourself with his interactions with other editors? SirFozzie (talk) 01:19, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Is it tendentious and disruptive to delete comments from one's own talk page? I so we need to change WP:USER to reflect that standard. (I'd endorse it, as I find it annoying, but it appears to be a common practice.) ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Presumably it's the edit summary. --NE2 01:48, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

A rude edit summary on one's own talk page makes one uncivil, not disruptive and tendentious. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that spreading discredited "WR vs. WP" memes can be disruptive. --NE2 02:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

LOL! Yes, that's right, WR is also trying to build a great encyclopedia. Good one!! Jayjg 02:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

You're helping less than I am. --NE2 02:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC) I just realized that that could be misinterpreted; my intent is to say that you're not helping in this discussion. (Unless your idea of help is to inflame a dispute, in which case you certainly are helping.) --NE2 02:57, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how making a negative remark about WR in an edit summary on one's own talk page makes one a tendentious and disruptive editor. We're not allowed to make comments about other websites anymore? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:30, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, come off it. The remark was negative towards Lar and Cla68, two editors in good standing. --NE2 03:36, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Cool down. I asked for evidence that the user is disruptive and tendentious and was given that diff as proof. I said that it might have been uncivil but not tendentious or uncivil, and you replied that talking about WR is disruptive. I disputed that and now you say that the original comment was uncivil, which is pretty much what I said before. Getting back to the assertion that the user is "tendentious and disruptive" - is there any evidence of that? So far all that's been offered is one uncivil edit summary. By the Giano standard, it wasn't even uncivil. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay guys, enough please. All of you. Jayjg, given the Mantanmoreland enforcement and John Nevard's early declaration that he was an alternate account, it was reasonable to make inquiries. Will Beback, it was reasonable to expect those inquiries to be responded to in a reasonable way rather than blanking with mildly rude edit summaries. Sir Fozzie, please don't rise to the bait - more light, less heat. Risker (talk) 01:21, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Balderdash. To begin with, this has nothing to do with the BADSITES strawman; rather, this has to do with a very specific attack site, which has taken a disliking to John Nevard, and started trying to tie him as a sockpuppet to its usual targets/victims. Rather unsurprisingly, soon after the thread about Nevard there heats up, one of the forum's regulars shows up on Nevard's Talk: page "advising" him to behave better, and soon after that another forum regular warns him, then opens up this section. The causality is clear as day, there's no point in pussyfooting around. However, the fact that that attack site is obsessed with Nevard (and no doubt working itself into a frenzy over this exchange) doesn't mean that "a significant part of Misplaced Pages" cares what it thinks, much less agrees with its conclusions. Jayjg 01:34, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Jayjg, there is nothing to say that other Wikipedians hadn't noticed this dichotomy some time in the past and were simply more discreet in their inquiries. While that may seem, on the surface, to have been more diplomatic, the end result is that since there was no public discussion, John Nevard is now being discussed on a public noticeboard. Let's try to keep the heat down and focus on the fact that there is apparently nothing at this time to link John Nevard with any of the known sockpuppeteers who have been known to haunt this series of articles. To my mind, that serves to dispel the cloud that has been following John Nevard around for a while, which can only be a good thing. Risker (talk) 02:14, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

That was the whole point of my first comment; to refute the claim that John Nevard was close to "ending up being viewed as a (at least mildly) disruptive and tendentious editor by a significant fraction of our userbase". There has never been a "cloud" following John Nevard around; rather, an insignificant attack board started advancing various idiotic theories about John Nevard, as is its wont. Jayjg 02:28, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Jayjg, unless you have been following these articles closely (and there is no reason to expect that you would), you would likely be unaware of the concerns of those of us who have been watching them. From my perspective, I am relieved that this issue is now openly resolved. Risker (talk) 02:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

• A question for clarification - was the other/prior account disclosed, and did you confirm that this account is indeed long dormant? Neither Lar's replies nor FT2s replies give me an indication either way on the first half of the question, which prevents me from reaching a conclusion on the second half. Also, I know of at least one prior checkuser request related to this Arbitration case that came up with puzzling results, so it might be worth discussing your puzzlement with the checkusers who handled that case. GRBerry 15:47, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
  • • I am not aware of it being disclosed, it may have been but it was not disclosed to me. I asked, but did not insist. ++Lar: t/c 18:43, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
      • Perhaps as a good-faith way of moving forward, John Nevard could disclose his previous account name to an Arbitration Committee member, privately? SirFozzie (talk) 18:47, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
  • I do not see evidence of multiple account use by John Nevard within the period covered by the checkuser tables as of today. He appears to edit from a university, a business, a residence, and occasionally tor; I do not know if that is of significance. (Curiously, 3 other editors at his university appear to be sockpuppets of each other, but since they share a different residential ISP I'm ruling John Nevard out as a fourth member of the party.) I'm not sure what information John has volunteered about his location, so I will only say he is not in the U.S., which seems to rule out the kind of long-distance dial-up shenanigans discovered involving Bassetcat, and also rules out any direct relationship with JaneyRyan. Hope this helps clarify things. Thatcher 17:46, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
    • I may be mistaken but I believe use of TOR is explicitly disallowed to be used while editing in that area. I'll consolidate my notes and consult with you, FT2 and the other CUs that have been investigating this to see if we can sort out any points of confusion. ++Lar: t/c 18:43, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
      • That was my thoughts as well, Lar.. that TOR was, if not explicitly banned, was at least severely discouraged on these articles. SirFozzie (talk) 18:47, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

It might be relevant is if someone else was logging in to JN's account to edit. As it happens, there are very few tor edits and none of them are related to naked short selling or other matters related to the case. The use of tor full-time would be prohibited for editors in this topic area (I think), but a large majority of JN's edits are made from non-proxy IP's, so it doesn't seem like an issue. Thatcher 18:53, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Use of Tor for this topic area is prohibited under 1B of the case remedies, but Thatcher has told us that the currently visible Tor edits aren't in the topic area, so that is moot for now. GRBerry 20:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Don't know how relevant this is to considerations here, but in my experience the principal antagonists on both sides of the fence were diligently recruiting Wikipedian volunteers to their POV on the Naked Short Selling content dispute. So there may be an issue about whether this person is proxying for a banned user. Maybe a caution at this time, with a possible request for clarification if problems continue? Durova 19:12, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think proxying for a banned user is the right way to deal with this, given that there are banned users on multiple sides of this issue here. I'd use remedy 1C "To edit in accordance with all Misplaced Pages policies ..." as the relevant remedy here. Some of JN's highlighed edits/summaries have gone too far into WP:NOTBATTLEGROUND territory, but I haven't yet dug enough to see if that is a caution that should be issued. GRBerry 20:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

For those keeping score at home, it may be instructive to count how many comments here in this very thread veer into WP:NOTBATTLEGROUND territory. Some of the things said here would get a newcomer sanctioned, and some might not, but clearly are not the sort of things I'd be pointing to with pride had I said them. ++Lar: t/c 12:20, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing on this page that "would get a newcomer sanctioned", and if you were concerned about Misplaced Pages becoming a battleground, then you should not have volunteered in this matter to be a willing foot-soldier on behalf of a message board at war with Misplaced Pages. Jayjg 00:00, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

That characterization of this matter is not helpful, Jayjg. Really, you should reconsider your approach. ++Lar: t/c 03:53, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

As the author of the original decision, I'd appreciate ongoing administrator attention to this highly publicized and problematic group of articles, both with regard to enforcement of the remedies in the decision as well as enforcement of other policies including application of BLP. There are also a number of old talkpage discussions that probably ought to be archived or courtesy-blanked (I would say deleted, but we'd be accused of trying to cover up the problematic history here), if someone wants to go through these. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I have continued to monitor these articles over the last few months, and will do some talk page archiving later this evening. Risker (talk) 00:49, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Resolved

Request for injunction in Pseudoscience/Homeopathy

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

See my response below. Ioeth _{(talk contribs friendly)} 13:23, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

User:Elonka should be banned from enforcement of Pseudoscience/Homeopathy arbitration decisions. She no longer has the trust of the community to act fairly as an administrator in this particular regard. Leave the enforcement to other administrators.

ScienceApologist (talk) 02:45, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

You'll have to take that up with ArbCom. Administrators would only (maybe) have the authority to do that collectively at ANI, but the only sure bet for such an injunction (haven't we got a new name for it yet?) is ArbCom.--chaser - t 05:07, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Chaser is correct, SA...this isn't where a request like that needs to be made. It doesn't have anything to do with the enforcement of the remedies prescribed by ARBCOM in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Homeopathy, but rather how or by whom they are enforced. Please appeal to ARBCOM or start a discussion at WP:ANI. Ioeth _{(talk contribs friendly)} 13:18, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Domer48 (again)

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Per the consensus here, the individual 1RR restriction placed on Domer48 is removed whilst the topic 1RR remains in place.Ryan Postlethwaite 11:45, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to bring this up, but I missed Rlevse proposal over the weekend. I actually think it's a very good model to stop future disruption on troubles related pages. However I have one concern that I think needs addressing. All Troubles articles are placed under 1RR, but Domer also has a seperate personal 1RR on troubles pages. I just think it's a little punitive to hit him with a double whammy with restrictions that mean the same thing. I propose we take away the individual probation on Domer as this is now covered with the topic 1RR restriction - it's a lot fairer that way and makes much more sense. We had an original proposal to restrict Domer and other editors, but this has been surpassed by the new remedy focussing on the whole topic. (Apologies for creating a new section, I just think this is the best place for this). Ryan Postlethwaite 22:18, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah good point Ryan. I'm okay with that as long as he's still subject to/on probation for the other The Troubles remedies. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:30, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree. The broader sanctions should cover him too. Right now, Domer48 is feeling particularly singled-out in this whole case - Alison 07:20, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I also concur. My (private) interactions with Domer consistently demonstrate that he is trying; the 1RR on Troubles articles should address the issue without attributing blame unequally. Rockpocket 07:26, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, this is a good point by Ryan. I also endorse this amendment. Spartaz 09:08, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Per Ryan Postlethwaite and the paralleling principle of cumulative vs. concurrent sentence. -- fayssal - wiki up 16:17, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Atabəy (formerly Atabek)

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

see result section per Moreschi

— Rlevse • Talk • 12:23, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Atabek was involved in AA1 in which he was nearly banned and AA2. The AA2 Amended Remedies and Enforcement allows any uninvolved administrator to impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict, despite being warned, when the editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. Inspite of being topic banned for one month, followed by two months, Atabek hasn't shown any in improvement in his behavior. In fact his behaviour has deteriorated to such a degree that it has forced me to file this report when I usually avoid doing so.

Refused to adhere to WP:ICANTHEARYOU, for which reason he was already topic banned

Atabek was already banned for editing and commenting once by Thatcher because he was ignoring other users comments in the discussion page. ...won't actually take the time to read and comprehend others' comments, ...privilege to comment is temporarily suspended. He was warned strongly not to do that again, but after returning from his "vacation" he added a POV tag here claiming he's doing so because: discuss and explain the selective removal of Dowsett and Minorsky references yet a year ago that topic was beaten to death and numerous users had explained to him that he is misusing those sources and that nobody is denying their validity. Is there some sort of an expiry date attached to the discussion page? In fact a more recent paper of Dowsett was presented to him, user VartanM replied to him (a year ago) by quoting Dowsett this was done on FOUR different occasions , , , and all those answers were addressed to Atabek. As for Minorsky, Atabek used p. 506 of Caucasica IV, but the one single use of Albanian on that page was put in quotations (like 'Albanian'). Here is where it is used: The special 'Albanian' patriarchate of the Armenian church formed the link between the two banks. In fact, the author supports the contrary of what Atabek claims: A particular complication results from the contemporary Armenian fashion of assuming Arabic patronymics (kunya) (such as Abii-Miisii, Abul-Asad, etc.), without any connexion with the original Armenian names. These latter too often recur in otherwise unrelated families, and it becomes difficult to discriminate between several Sahls, Vasaks, and Smbats living at the same time... Beside those sources others were provided which were much more explicit see here by VartanM, which included Britannica. VartanM will be repeating himself, Fedayee will come and start quoting Dowsett displaying that it contradicts Atabek's interpretation as well as providing other sources. So Atabek by adding that tag and by making that summary, he has gone against WP:ICANTHEARYOU, for which he was was blocked previously.

The second case: is here, user Fedayee's description here shows how Atabek refused to read what others have been writting. I quote user Meowy: "Atabek, has returned to editing certain articles after leaving them alone for a year. The material he is attempting to add to the articles is exactly the same material he was attempting to add a year earlier. He is presenting no new arguments to support the material’s inclusion - he is simply restating the same argument that was comprehensively rejected a year before.". Both articles were stable and had 0 conflicts prior to Atabek`s return.

Refuses to adhere to WP:BATTLEGROUND

Atabek refused to adhere to WP:BATTLEGROUND when attempting to justify his recent disruptive edits: just because there is a group of nationalist POV contributors who have intended and turned those articles into fabricated propaganda tool? . Misplaced Pages is not a battleground was a proposed principle both in AA1 and AA2 , and all users who were found to have not respected that policy were banned. , , .

Atabek's provocations

On AA2 proposed decision, on proposed principle, arbitrators have voted on a principle about provocations, this proposition was submitted by Fedayee in the Workshop, only three users had documented cases of provocation during the arbitration, the worst offender being Atabek, see one of the pieces of evidence submitted here. In spite that arbitrators have found significant reason to include such a proposed principle and having passed it, they did not find it necessary to impose any sanction on Atabek due to his continous provocations. What is the purpose of spending so much time and effort debating a topic, digging up references etc. when Atabek repeatedly ignores everything and just writes a line or two of redundant sentences full of buzzwords. These provocations still continue to this day, where Atabek continues to make edits knowing full well what sort of a reaction they are going to cause.

Proposed remedy

Atabek topic banned for a minimum of six months from all historical subjects. -- Ευπάτωρ 04:05, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't think Eupator has much room to accuse others. He himself has been repeatedly placed on parole, after the original one expired, for edit warring on topic related articles: Which did not stop him from acting the same as before, this is his most recent edit war in violation of his parole: I don't see Atabey doing anything like that. Also Eupator fails to mention that he himself was "nearly banned" during the first AA case. So what is his point in mentioning that? Grandmaster (talk) 05:13, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I haven't. Not even once. Since the expiry of the the original sanctions I was blocked once and that was a mistake and I was promptly unblocked. Since the original AA1 sanctions expired no new sanctions have been applied against obviously, unlike you Grandmaster who was topic banned or Atabek. As for discretionary sanctions, they can be applied to all original parties of AA1 regardless of their actions since then. So lets stick to Atabek's current behaviour.-- Ευπάτωρ 14:49, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

GRBerry, the admin who closed the thread, said right on top: Eupator unblocked, put on clear notice about AA2 and as such subject to discretionary remedies under that case. So you must stick to your parole. As for Atabek, you demonstrated no violation of 1RR or any incivility on his part, but still want him banned from the topic. Grandmaster (talk) 15:02, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand, as a party of AA1 I was already subject to discretionary sanctions so are you and everyone else by default, that was merely the required warning before discretionary sanctions can be applied. I'm not under any specific editing restrictions, no parole or anything else so cease distorting the facts. I'm not reporting Atabek for violating 1RR (he's not even under 1RR restrictions) nor mainly about his incivility. Read the report again if it's still not clear for you.-- Ευπάτωρ 15:21, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

For one of the clearest examples of Atabek's (and Grandmaster's) WP:ICANTHEARYOU, see here and here . That said, I don't support a longtime ban on anyone - especially if you have to invoke the disgraceful AA2 to get it. What I would hope would be that administrators would start to confront the activites of Atabek and those like him with some intellectual rigour. Meowy 15:26, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I did not propose a ban via a long term block. I'm merely suggesting that he be topic banned from all historical topics for at least six months so that he can reassess his behaviour.-- Ευπάτωρ 15:59, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Historical topics are mostly what he does, and 6 months is a long time. But it is AA2 I object to. A bad law is not made good by its occasional justified use, that only makes the bad law more entrenched into the system. So I cannot support its use anytime. Meowy 16:07, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately there is no other forum at this point to refer this matter to. Given his history, I must say six months isn't long enough.-- Ευπάτωρ 16:10, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

There probably would be other ways, if administrators and the system were up to the task. I think following his edits on the Azeri-language Misplaced Pages could be useful. It will probably show he is not approaching many articles here with clean hands. Meowy 17:30, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

And what is criminal in editing articles in Azerbaijani wiki? Since when the rules do not allow people to edit other language wikis? Grandmaster (talk) 17:53, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I like how Eupator and Meowy always fail to mention their own role in what happened in the diffs they cite. For information, Meowy was the only one blocked for edit warring on Shusha pogrom. And I would really like someone to take some time to see what exactly happened there. To me, this is nothing but an attempt to get rid of an opponent by frivolous reporting, while those who report themselves committed much worse offenses. --Grandmaster (talk) 15:49, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, but you and Atabek were blocked for 3 weeks from editing that article (and even banned from its talk page), a ban later extended to 4 weeks as a result of your blind refusal to accept the administrator's comments. It was the blind refusal to accept (or perhaps even read) my edit and talk page comments that got both of you the 3 week ban. As I said, one of the clearest examples of "ICANTHEARYOU". Meowy 16:02, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Which is the PRIMARY emphasis of this report, not slow and calculated edit warring but precisely that.-- Ευπάτωρ 16:04, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Neither me, nor Atabek were blocked, that's not true. This is the entire thread for everyone to see, please pay particular attention to the bottom of the report, a section called "Revision": It is pretty obvious that an error in judgment was made back then, while the real offender was Meowy, who in the end was the only one actually blocked. Grandmaster (talk) 16:06, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

You're free to have your own pov, unfortunately for you the facts laid out here do not support your pov. As for frivolous reports, you personally produce them at an alarming rate per year. I can't recall when is the last time I filed one, if ever. I doubt this soapboxing is going to divert the attention away from the true disruption.-- Ευπάτωρ 15:54, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Note to Administrators: Grandmaster is attempting to divert attention by trying to mislead administrators, check the several checkusers filed, Eupator knew already he was reverting a user who was using multiple socks by their behaviours. He was consequently unblocked, and I am not even including here how obviously several of those socks’ edits could have been qualified as vandalism. The second claim by Grandmaster is even more bogus, if we check the second diff Grandmaster provides, we see Eupator reverting a single purpose account who's only purpose was to insert and revert on Melik article, to make the article similar to this one. Was it not Grandmaster who tried merging Malik with Melik and was opposed? Checking the talkpage we see what position this single purpose account was trying to impose: Grandmaster’s, Atabek’s and Adil’s. It is hardly the first time Grandmaster provides such misleading explanations to divert from the true disruption.

Grandmaster is also distorting intentionally by claiming that there was an error of judgement in the topic ban imposed against him and that Meowy was the only one blocked at the end. For a lack of a better word, he is intentionally lying. Thatcher's revision was not to revise the one month topic ban imposed against Grandmaster and Atabek, but to revise his decision on unblocking Meowy. Meowy was first blocked because it was found he failed to respect the restriction of 1 revert per week. Thatcher unblocked Meowy and then revised his decision because Meowy’s edit was technically a revert even though it wasn't obvious at all (he didn't know he was reverting). Thatcher admitted himself: Meowy, you are making the same mistake I did when I first analyzed the edits. Parishan and Atabek both added back De Waal and duplicated the casualty text. Look at this diff and the next one, and search for the text "when Azerbaijani soldiers suppressed an Armenian revolt" in both versions. Thatcher 02:23, 4 February 2008 (UTC) Thatcher finally reblocked Meowy for 15 more hours to equal the initial 24 hours block. . But he never revised the one month topic ban as seen in the log here. In short, when Thatcher says that Grandmaster and Atabek were partially right, it was that technically Meowy’s edit could have been qualified as a revert. But this does not change the fact that neither of them have read what they have reverted when they have reinserted the duplicate and even perpetuated it. So according to Grandmaster a topic ban of one month (initially 3 weeks, but extended to 4 because they still refused to read others) is insignificant compared to a block of 24 hours for a technical revert, when Meowy’s intention wasn't even a revert at all.

Grandmaster has a long history of intentionally filing baseless charges against members to distract the attention from other members’ legitimate concerns on abuses. See here where I have provided evidence about this on AA2. It does not seem like he's changed his behaviour. See here, another documented case where Grandmaster ignores others' words. - Fedayee (talk) 04:38, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

So many nice words, thanks Fedayee. But first, no CU was ever filed on the user whom Eupator reverted 3 times in violation of his parole, so any attempt to link him to a banned user is baseless. The fact that the article Melik is a POV fork of the article Malik is quite obvious, and of course many people see that, and some may try to fix. But there's a group of users who guards this article and tries to present the Arabic title of Malik as something unique and used only by Armenians. As for Thatcher, I never agreed with his decision, and the fact that Meowy made 3 rvs in violation of his parole was clear to all other admins who reviewed the report. At the same time, neither me nor Atabek made any violations, and I did not make any reverts at all. So clearly this was an error in judgment, and Thatcher partially admitted it. This group of users always brings up their "evidence" that they submitted to various arbitration cases, but they forget to mention one minor detail - their "evidence" was rejected and no action was taken on the basis of it, which pretty much speaks for itself. And they accuse me of filing a baseless report, while themselves filing a baseless report on another user, citing no violation of 1RR or incivility, which are covered by the arbcom remedy. If this is not an attempt to get a rid of an opponent, then what is this? --Grandmaster (talk) 05:56, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

The charges brought up are an obvious attempt to distract attention from this report. Adding established scholarly references to an encyclopedic article, without any personal attacks unlike those accusing me, does not constitute a violation. Unfortunately, my accusers in this thread hold the same POV in A-A related pages, are group warring across several topical pages. This isn't something new, and third parties are welcome to review Talk:Sahl Smbatean and Talk:Khachen to observe the lack of any willingness of these editors to engage in any discussion of references, but rather using angry and bad faith language as evidenced in the report. Outside of that, I don't think either this report or my further responses to it will contribute anything to Misplaced Pages. My only request is that arbitrators carefully review and enforce the parole on editors who are being obviously incivil. This would greatly assist in future rather than targeting contributors. Thanks. Atabəy (talk) 21:53, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

If at all, the one that may need a break from editing these articles is Ευπάτωρ, which is my proposal. Look forward to hearing other comments from admins active on this board, as for the appropriateness of this ban. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:20, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Doing what Jossi recommended above, would perhaps be tantamount to the most single ludicrous thing I have ever heard or read on Misplaced Pages. And that means a lot coming from someone who has reserved patience and entrusted administrators to decide on the right thing for years now. Atabek has been exploiting Misplaced Pages for well over a year and at a time when he should be blocked for his provocative and disruptive edits, an administrator instead advocates that they punish a non-guilty party? Where is your partiality and are you even reading the evidence we are posting? We have laid more than enough evidence, documenting disruption and vandalism and that is the best you response you can come up with? Let's hope the rest of the administrators come to their senses because your proposal is outright ridiculous. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 23:38, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

All that is needed is to say "Resolved - No violation found". The complaint was brought in good faith (proved by the amount of effort Eupator would have taken to write it and the evidence he presented), but it was a bit too non-specific to ever succeed since many of Atabek's edits are non-disruptive, and those that are are often not intensive enough or are too complex and long-running to get the appropriate attention. Unfortunately for Eupator, it may be that admins don't like to be called for and then not get to swing the ban hammer at someone. I hope that is not going to be the outcome. Meowy 02:36, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay..., can we please have some other administrator express his opinion on the evidence, and this time, preferably, give a reason as to what he based it on? Otherwise, Jossi seemed to have just arbitrarily picked someone to punish without even elucidating on the hows and whys. An even better question: How did Atabek fall out of the equation of Jossi's comments? VartanM (talk) 16:43, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

On tenterhooks

I'm going to sleep. I'll review this mess and hopefully sort it all out in the morning. Moreschi (talk) 22:43, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

"Sort it all out in the morning" - doesn't a task of that magnitude require the abilities that usually come with superheros in skin-tight cotumes. I doubt any admin has those, though a few think they have, and some probably even have the costumes. Meowy 01:48, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Result

The relevant articles are Principality of Khachen (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and Sahl Smbatean (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). While this may seem a long way off from the Nagorno-Karabakh War, the location of the historical Khachen is also that of modern-day Nagorno-Karabakh, so from an Azeri point of view, if we can prove that Khachen cannot validly be called Armenian (the other candidate is Albanian), then Armenia's claims to NK could be considered less valid. The row at Sahl Smbatean is along similar lines. Essentially this is WP:BATTLEGROUND again.

• This drive-by insulting revert from Baku87 (talk · contribs) is not acceptable, especially considering his non-participation on the talk page. This merits 48h off.
• Atabəy (talk · contribs)'s editing at Talk:Principality of Khachen and Talk:Sahl Smbatean is classic tendentious editing. He comes back many months after the last dispute ended pushing the same rejected arguments as he did previously. While his arguments are not completely without merit, edits such as this are not supportable. I would have a lot more sympathy if he had tried to remove the ethnic description, which IMO is dubious, but to replace it with one which is clearly not founded in reality is very poor. Two pagebans, then.
• VartanM (talk · contribs) - Vartan, come on. While reverting here was justifed, the rhetoric in the edit summary doesn't help. You know better, and are lucky not to be blocked for that. Warned.

There is also a row going on at Caucasian Albania - in all honesty I haven't had time to properly check this out - in which MarshallBagramyan (talk · contribs) has apparently not stuck to 1RR. I am sure this was an oversight. Please stick to the general limitations in the future that everyone else does. Thank you. Moreschi (talk) 19:38, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Things are ok at Caucasian Albania now. We are currently discussing a compromise solution.-- Ευπάτωρ 20:19, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good. Please let me know if that one becomes problematic again. Moreschi (talk) 20:29, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

User:VartanM incivil comments

User:VartanM has been placed under civility supervision per Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 ArbCom. Please, check out his commentary, while reverting my edits: "rv: did you drop something on your head? because you're showing signs of amnesia. See talk", clearly removing a reference to a scholarly source. Speaking on subject term, perhaps User:VartanM needs to be reminded about the parole, and I am still hopeful that he can discuss references in a civil manner on the talk page, instead of unconstructive comments such as this. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 22:57, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Your tendentious, disruptive and highly provocative recent edits were clearly intended to invite such a reaction. After all what could you have possibly expected to happen? You show up and revert on articles after one year of inactivity by repeating the same nonsense that was discussed and refuted throughout last year (Talk:Principality of Khachen and Talk:Sahl Smbatean). You have been uncooperative every single time. Insisting on the same misinterpretation and instead of attemtping to pay attention to the arguments against your misinterprations you constantly allege that other users are disputing your sources when nobody has or is disputing them. I don't expect anyone to engage in an effort to assume good faith or to attempt to take you seriously when you haven't changed your editing patterns in all this time. Atabek should be topic banned from any and all articles that deal with anything predating the 20th century.-- Ευπάτωρ 04:06, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure what adding a scholarly reference to an article, and your obviously angry reactions have to do with AGF. Is VartanM's comment on something hitting my head, and me having amnesia, an AGF? No. You suggest that I am topic banned for adding a reference to an Oxford scholar and expert on the topic in encyclopedic article, just because there is a group of nationalist POV contributors who have intended and turned those articles into fabricated propaganda tool? Eupator, amidst this nationalistic zeal, you're forgetting a simple thing, I am for impartial use of references, in fact, my edits of the same pages always included references to all, including Armenian scholars, and those claiming Sahl Armenian. But removing CJF Dowsett references from these two pages, is like talking about Communist history by removing any reference to Marx. As far as VartanM's comments go, he was incivil as he was placed on parole precisely for that reason. So, AE post is only seeking to follow the rules, if any. Atabek (talk) 20:13, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Note to administrators: Atabek claims that he was impartial and that he included all the sides and supports it by referring to this edit of his . To not accuse him of lying, he is not saying the truth, the edit in question was made more than a year ago, while the recent events relate to this edit where he entirely removed Armenian to replace it with Albanian. (to correspond to his recent creations over Azerbaijani Misplaced Pages where he excludes him being Armenian) The following references have been provided that state that Sahl Sbatean was Armenian:

• The Cambridge History of Iran. Par W B Fisher, Richard Nelson Frye, J A Boyle, Ehsan Yar-Shater, Peter Jackson, Lawrence Lockhart, Cambridge University Press (1968)

• E. J. Brill's First Encyclopaedia of Islam, 1913-1936 Par M. Th. Houtsma, E. van Donzel, BRILL, (1993)

• Islamic Culture by Islamic Cultural Board, Editors: -Oct. 1936, Marmaduke Pickthall; Jan. 1937- Oct. 1938, Muhammad Asad-Weiss. (1927)

• C.E Bosworth, Encyclopaedia Iranica.

More sources can be provided.

It was explained to him by several users, on several occasions that he was misinterpreting Dowsett. He was even cought misquoting this author.

His disruption on another article was also one of the reasons why we had to have 20 reference to support an authors ethnicity.

Also note Atabek's above remarks, he is accusing several users of being a "group of nationalist POV contributors who have intended and turned those articles into fabricated propaganda tool?" I am deeply offended and I'm wondering for how long Atabek is going to continue with this sort of battleground mentality. VartanM (talk) 05:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

VartanM is on parole and was given a final warning like 2 months ago. Grandmaster (talk) 06:40, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Good for you Grandmaster, here, have a cookie. VartanM (talk) 06:53, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

And here is Grandmaster engaging in editwarring. VartanM (talk) 07:13, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

VartanM, none of your sideline arguments justify your comments, which are a personal attack and violation of WP:AGF, while you're on parole. I would also refer you to WP:TROLL, as you're simply disrupting this thread by bringing absolutely irrelevant subjects trying to cover up your comments, I repeat: "rv: did you drop something on your head? because you're showing signs of amnesia.". And I would think, that any non-disruptive user would simply apologize for making such personal attacks while editing. As far as nationalistic POV goes, I think the appearance of Eupator in this thread even before yourself, and edit warring of both of you and MarshallBagramyan on the page in question are more than sufficient proof of my point. But this thread pertains to your disruption only. Atabek (talk) 08:25, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Atabek only a person suffering from amnesia can come into an article after a whole year has passed, when he was proven wrong time after time, and re-start a disruptive campaign to unArmenianise an article. If any person, that has 2 brain cells, reads the talkpage of the Sahl Smbatean will see and understand how disruptive you are.

And since you decided to insult me here on AE page by calling me a TROLL let me teach you what the term means.

TROLL: "The archetypal example of trolling is the deliberately inflammatory edit or post. Inflammatory edits usually come from users who have a minority or controversial opinion and who sincerely believe that this view is inadequately represented by Misplaced Pages, and therefore will seek reasonable ways to properly represent their views; trolls, however, will generally not seek consensus but will instead insist on a position without any regard for compromise."

Sounds familiar? If not, see the history and talk pages of Osroene(banned from editing), Edessa, Mesopotamia (banned from editing), Sahl Smbatean, Principality of Khachen, Movses Kaghankatvatsi and dozen of others.

Second note to administrators As you can see Atabek did not stop the battle ground rhetoric, he actually went further and unjustifiably insulted me. And if you take a precious second and click on the diffs provided, you will see who the real TROLL is, and why exactly after months of quite and peace, Armenians and Azeri-turks are back on this page. VartanM (talk) 10:14, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

VartanM, I am not trying to "unArmenize the article" (such wording is rather nationalist too btw), only to add a reference to an Oxford scholar, mind WP:OWN? The matter is simple - these are your words: "rv: did you drop something on your head? because you're showing signs of amnesia. See talk". There is nothing that justifies such angry attacks. Atabek (talk) 14:59, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

What I see here is continuing problems on A-A articles with little, if any, progress being made by either side. While there is heated talk from both sides, I see only VartanM making comments like this. If the two sides of the A-A debate can't work this out, we will not have many options left. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:53, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

A typical comment from a typical administrator. You can't be bothered to understand the subject and its background, so you come up with "to hell with all of you" type comments. Administrators should either be wise to the subject, or cease being involved in things they know nothing about. Meowy 20:37, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

You obviously have no clue about what you are talking about; it is because of administrator’s actions like yours that we are in this situation. Atabek was banned for two months from several articles nearly for the same reason as this current situation and you write just that? Atabek right here writes: just because there is a group of nationalist POV contributors who have intended and turned those articles into fabricated propaganda tool? while ‘Misplaced Pages is not a battleground’ was a proposed and voted principle in AA1 and AA2 and that users have been banned according to those principles. But what you see is some incivility as an answer of an obvious provocation.

Nothing coming from Atabek can be trusted, but there is nothing new here. See how he lies, he claims: majority of your choices are Armenian. Actually, from the six sources provided NONE were Armenian, neither their sources, neither their authors. Here are the sources in question which prove that he is Armenian:

• The Cambridge History of Iran
• E. J. Brill's First Encyclopaedia of Islam
• Islamic Culture by Islamic Cultural Board
• Encyclopaedia Iranica
• Poetics Of Islamic Historiography Deconstructing Ṭabarī History
• Prelude to the Generals: A Study of Some Aspects of the Reign of the Eighth ‘Abbsid Caliph, Al-Mu ‘tasim Bi-Allah (218–277 AH/833–842 AD)

On the same answer Atabek writes: In this sense, Dowsett and Minorsky references,..., you can find what Thatcher already wrote about the matter here, Thatcher claims that it seems that Minorsky is claiming him to be Armenian but then the author claims that his origins were unknown. But as I have clearly explained here, when Minorsky claims that his origins are unknown, he is referring to his genealogy since a royal lineage and from where he came. Thatcher also claims that, from Dowsett’s own words, it is not clear and it could support both sides. Which was also addressed, since those reading Dowsett’s specialised works know already that Caucasian Albania in the time of the Sahl was culturally Armenia, actually Dowsett writes about his realm as being in Armenia (about Khachen) in a more recent paper than the one distorted by Atabek (also provided, from a review of a book)

In short, six notable and neutral sources (Minorsky and Dowsett are not included) were provided explicitly claiming him to be Armenian, the quote from Minorsky used by Thatcher which is the following: A particular complication results from the contemporary Armenian fashion of assuming Arabic patronymics (kunya) (such as Abii-Miisii, Abul-Asad, etc.), without any connexion with the original Armenian names. These latter too often recur in otherwise unrelated families, and it becomes difficult to discriminate between several Sahls, Vasaks, and Smbats living at the same time is an implicit admission of him being Armenian, what Thatcher uses to suggest there is a contradiction is actually on the search of the prince’s genealogy and birthplace. So Minorsky does support the claim that he was actually Armenian. As for Dowsett anyone is invited to read the talkpage of the article to see how Atabek is distorting it. See here his recent version, where he replaces Armenian with Albanian, when no one including the source he uses dispute him to be Armenian. So Atabek lies when he claims that he was impartial.

Atabek has a history of distorting, misusing and misquoting sources… see for instance the discussion here on his misuses of sources, he was subsequently banned for two months from editing those articles. He is continuing his distortion by replacing Armenian with Albanian that he started recently on Azerbaijani Misplaced Pages where everything Armenian becomes Albanian. An example here where a monastery built in the 13th century becomes an Albanian monastery, when the Albanian Church was abolished under the Arabs and replaced by the Armenian several centuries prior, which alone shows the impossibility of the existence of an Albanian Church in that era. All the engravings on the walls, the architecture, and the letters are in Armenian.

But continue being fooled by a user whose every single edit regarding those articles are done in bad faith, just recently he started to re-edit the articles he was banned from… see here, where he claims that figure to be a disciple of Christ, if you knew the period (time frame), you'd know why it is impossible. But why he does this is complicated for someone unfamiliar with the stuff to understand, but once you understand why those articles which seem so unrelated are actually related, you'll see why those edits are in bad faith. Thanks. - Fedayee (talk) 23:39, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Grandmaster still refuses to consider what others write. For example, here he changed the map back by claiming: “restoring the map that was removed for no reason.” Grandmaster knows that's not true. I started raising the issue of this map on September 5, on the Artsakh talk page. Grandmaster replied, The map that you mentioned is for the 2nd century B.C., i.e. the period before Armenia conquered the region, and it comes from a neutral source, unlike the map based on Bagrat Ulubabyan. It was told to him that the map was prepared by the Soviets and was politically motivated (I explained why); later I provided 13 different maps which abundantly disprove as that map being unreliable.

Grandmaster cannot claim he did not notice the above mentioned points: they were provided during a discussion which involved both of us, and did not bother to answer. From the map provided, three are those which are officially used over Misplaced Pages. In fact, even the scholars Grandmaster quotes contradict the map in question. I was even reverted after I reverted Grandmaster by Elsanaturk, who seemed to come out of nowhere. This sort of behavior is very much similar to what I reported on his conduct on AA2. I don't see how discussion is possible when on the other end the editor is deliberately ignoring the comments you make; made even worse so, as if they were never made to begin with.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 23:31, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

As far as i'm concerned Atabek is now in Adil territory. Look at the articles in question here which he created and modified in the Turkish and Azeri Wikis and check out the content: , , , , etc.-- Ευπάτωρ 02:02, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Eupator, I am in Adil's territory?...do you even understand what you're talking about? Yes, I contribute to both Turkish and Azeri wiki, I don't see how that matters here. Btw, you forgot to include few other Azeri Wiki articles which I started or edited - on Caliphate, Georgian Democratic Republic, artificial intelligence, Aga Mohammed Qajar, some translated from English Wiki. Perhaps, you could accuse me for making these too... Or maybe, I shall remind you that Azeri Xachen article I created, actually cites Armenian spelling of it, something you never do in regards to Azeri or Turkish spelling of relevant articles in any Wiki. At least I contribute something to encyclopedias, unlike you reverting scholarly work with angry non-neutral POV and/or personal attacks. And again, your argument above only serves to cover up VartanM's incivil comments... Atabek (talk) 16:25, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Are you hoping that I will say something funny again, so you can go and cry to administrators? In regards to your inclusion of the Armenian spelling, you copy pasted half of the word with spelling errors, why aren't you coping the entire name? Oh yeah, I forgot, you don't want anyone to know that it was a principality. Your historically wrong Azeri articles don't bother me one bit, so you can mislead and misinform your fellow Azeris as much as you like. You're dumbing down your own people after all. VartanM (talk) 17:26, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

VartanM, this is irrelevant to the AE thread but Azeri Xachen article is titled "Xaçın məlikliyi" (Khachen principality). Anyways, what you're saying is not funny, I am actually very sorry for your inability to admit your obvious incivility, being now even more emboldened. This is precisely why I opened this AE thread, to get you to stop disrupting by being disrespectful of editors. Atabek (talk) 18:41, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

If we could mix up the time periods, I wonder what the German Misplaced Pages would have looked like under Nazi Germany? A bit like the Azeri Misplaced Pages probably, only on a bigger scale. It would be a neat project to come up with a Misplaced Pages parody with articles containing nothing but propaganda, from the wildly unbelievable to the almost credible. Trouble is, the parody might seem too much like reality. Meowy 20:46, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm reading all of this bickering and it strikes me that nearly all, if not all the people, in this thread have been warned about the Arbitration case and the possibility of discretionary sanctions. I remind the parties most importantly of principle 7 of that case:

7) Misplaced Pages users are expected to behave reasonably and calmly in their dealings with other users. Insulting and intimidating other users harms the community by creating a hostile environment. Personal attacks are not acceptable.

Right now, in my opinion as an uninvolved administrator, several editors in this thread are "fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process." and really need to re-examine and change their conduct if they desire to continue editing in this area. MBisanz 02:17, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Is the above meant to be proof for my "can't be bothered to understand the subject and its background, so you come up with 'to hell with all of you'" observation? Try to see beyond the "bickering" and observe the complainant to be an individual complaining about an alleged "insult" that nobody would reasonably be upset about, and who, if you would explore his editing history, has in fact been insulting the whole purpose of Misplaced Pages. (OK, actually, I believe Misplaced Pages to be an inherently evil concept, tailor-made as it is for spreading lies and propaganda - but you admins must still have some hope for it, so try and do something positive and not go down the easy "damn you all" route.) Meowy 02:37, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Meowy, such an attitude is precisely what causes these problems and why the A-A articles are in a constantly surrounded by bickering. The problems are not one-sided. There is merit in both sides of this argument and until such time as when the users on the two sides of the A-A articles learn to cooperate and build the encyclopedia instead of constantly pointing fingers at the other side, these problems will not go away. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Eupator and VartanM have already explained that the complainant, Atabek, has returned to editing certain articles after leaving them alone for a year. The material he is attempting to add to the articles is exactly the same material he was attempting to add a year earlier. He is presenting no new arguments to support the material’s inclusion - he is simply restating the same argument that was comprehensively rejected a year before. His actions actually make co-operative editing impossible (for what is the point of engaging with an editor and discussing proposed material if that editor deliberately ignores everything that has been said and at a later date tries to repeat the entire process). VartanM was actually being polite to Atabek with that alleged uncivil comment. It was not "signs of amnesia" that Atabek was showing, it was more like a contempt for those who had worked on those articles and engaged with him in their talk pages. Rlevse, you claim there is "merit in both sides of this argument" without bothering to say what the merit is? Saying everyone is partly right (or partly wrong) is an intellectual cop-out, and just a variant on the limp damn-you-all response. Meowy 16:24, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Bingo! That is precisely the root of the problem. Not one administrator has actually bothered to spend some time to understand the essense of the question here. This whole process has created an environment where users such as Atabek make calculative provocative and obviously ludicrous edits and then come and complain on this board against perceived incivility and victimization as a result. You do not have to "take sides" to make a judgement here, common sense should be sufficient.-- Ευπάτωρ 18:22, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

The root of the problem is that some people continue edit warring and making incivil comments after repeated warnings, and nothing is being done to stop it. How many times was VartanM warned, yet here he is with another incivil comment, see the top of this report. Civility is one of the main rules in wikipedia, and observation of this rule is not a subject to any discussion. --Grandmaster (talk) 05:21, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

VartanM wasn't edit warring and wasn't being uncivil/incivil, he just wrote a badly explained edit summary. Look at the context. The edit summary would have been understood by (and got a smile from) anyone who had previously editing that entry and seen the talk page discussions, but it would not have been understood by a newcomer to the entry. Atabek too would have understood the edit summary; he is not a victim and is just playing the system. Meowy 15:49, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

You can explain something to a user only so many times. After it was made abundantly clear that Sahl Smbatyan was an Armenian, that Albania was a mere geographical notion, that he was engaging in original research by interpreting what Albania meant, then further edits by Atabek simply became very provocative vandalism. The very fact that he has systematically removed the word "Armenian" in articles on Azeri Misplaced Pages and replaced them with "Caucasian Albania" reeks of the foul scholarship that Farida Mamedova and Ziya Bunyadov are quite notorious for. A topic ban seems to be quite appropriate.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 23:31, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you all try to just scroll up and read the first line of the thread. Are any of your commentaries relevant or do they justify these words: "rv: did you drop something on your head? because you're showing signs of amnesia" against an editor. Answering the question fairly may assist arbitrators in closing the thread. Atabəy (talk) 22:07, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, do let's get back to the actual complaint. As has been pointed out lots of times in the above posts, Atabek were trying to add to an entry material that had been discussed and rejected many times in the past, and was offering no new arguments for that material's inclusion. So it seems he had forgotten all about those previous discussions (hence the "amnesia"" and the "see talk" comment were justified). At worst VartanM is guilty of writing a bit of harmless sarcasm and of not giving a proper edit summary - and even that last point is subjective because anyone (including Atabek) who had previous contact with the page would have fully understood the meaning of the edit summary as written. Nobody can seriously believe Atabek actually felt insulted. The complaint is about something really trivial and has been a waste of everyones' time. Meowy 02:21, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

This can be closed now, see the "result" section above. Moreschi (talk) 19:49, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

User:Vacio

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Grandmaster you are already under AA restrictions, though voluntary and I expect you to abide by that. I do now know that your AA restriction expired back in April 2008. Vacio, now you are too. What I see here is editing warring over this article while talk was going on. The way to do that is finish the talk, reach consensus, then change the article. I don't know if the people existed or not nor which map is correct, but I do know edit warring was going on. It appears there are reliable sources on both view points, so the solution may well be to mention both views with both sets of view in the article. The solution is not to edit war. Work this out or I'll block both of you next time. The article is full protected one month while you work this out.

— Rlevse • Talk • 12:13, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

This user continues edit warring on AA related articles. In particular, he keeps on persistently removing a quote from an authoritative western scholar Robert H. Hewsen. Within the last 5 days he removed the reference to Hewsen 3 times from the article Artsakh. First time the reference disappeared after his massive edits. I restored it, and Vacio removed the reference again without any edit summary: Then he removed it once again:

Note that after his edits the reference to this source disappears:

Robert H. Hewsen. "The Primary History of Armenia": An Examination of the Validity of an Immemorially Transmitted Historical Tradition. History in Africa, Vol. 2. (1975), pp. 91-100

It states that Hayk and Sisak were imaginary and not real persons. Obvious attempt to suppress information and promote certain POV. Note that Moresci advised the users editing AA topics to voluntarily stick to 1rv per week, but Vacio keeps on reverting as many times as he likes. In a thread below Eupator said that Things are ok at Caucasian Albania now. We are currently discussing a compromise solution. And this is how the compromise was sought. Along came Vacio and removed the map that was being discussed, and replaced it with the one from some private website: This was done without any compromise or prior discussion on talk of the article, and third party user Peregrine Fisher on ]] agreed that self-published maps should not be used in such topics: . Vacio has been warned twice: I expect that this time the admins will take measures to ensure that this user stops edit warring on AA topics. Thanks. --Grandmaster (talk) 08:04, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Grandmaster stretches the truth here. This user makes some silly edits, which are not only contrary to the historical sources but also to the content of the article. He is known for some original research deductions . Moreover, this user has two times obviously falsificated a primary source: the 7th century Armenian historian Movses Kaghankatvatsi wrote that the Mihranid family exterminated the Armenian dynasty of Aranshahiks, but Grandmaster "attested" me that never such a dynasy has existed replaced them with Arsacid Dynasty of Caucasian Albania .

Then in the talkpage of the article Artsakh three times I have said that there is not a single word about the mythical figure Sisak in the article, but Grandmaster and user Parishan every time add "However Hayk and Sisak are thought to have been just eponyms and not real persons." referring to the above mentioned R. Hewsen. This shows what Grandmaster is actually doing: he makes some ridiculous edits and then accuse me for "edit warring". In fact he is vandalizing a wikipedia article, since the nonsense he writes has even no cennection with the topic of the article. About Hayk (the mythical ancestor of the Armenian people): the historian R. Hewsen is not explicitly saying "Hayk was not a real person", he only refers to him as a mythical figure and perhaps a pre-Christian god, but he does not exclude that he could have been in real. I have stressed this numerous times, but Grandmaster keeps neglecting on it. On the other hand there are historians (mainly Armenian) who think that Hayk had been a real person, so there are two opinions and a selective use of sources should be unacceptable.

Such a fight against myths has certain aims; according to the same Movses K., an Armenian prince called Aran, who was the first governor of Caucasian Albania and the ancestor of the Aranshahik house, was a scion of this Hayk; Grandmaster is simply unpleased with the fact that this Aran would have an Armenian origin, so he could even write an OR like this: "However, Hayk and Sisak were just eponyms and not real persons, so Aran (if he actually existed) could not be their descendant.".

Then in the talkpage, instead of give attention to my objections, he is claims that the Armenian people are not natives in Artsakh but immigrants (although they live there for 2700 years), he says these Armenians are the "descendants" of Caucasian Albanians, that some Armenian placenames have a "Persian origin", and other things like these, which show that this user is not interested in the stuff that has relation with Artsakh, but is rather trying in any way and any manner to garble the history of Armenian people in this historical region. --Vacio (talk) 09:35, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

In the article Caucasian Albania Grandmaster and some other Azeri users try to maintain a map which shows Orchistene (Artsakh) as a part of Albania in 2nd century BC, while Strabo clearly says that it was a provonce of the Armenian Kingdom:

There is also Phauene, a province of Armenia, and Comisene, and Orchistene, which last furnishes the most cavalry.

And also ancient Greek and medieval Armenian sources, all of them, say that the right bank of the river Kur was an Armenian territory until 387AD, there is not a single historical source which would say something else. I proposed them some good maps of Caucasian Albania, if they don't want those, it is all the same to me, but in no case I think it could be acceptable to use a map, which shows a primary historical fact upside down. So what am I here "guilty" for? --Vacio (talk) 10:16, 5 October 2008 (UTC)