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This notice board is provided so that editors can ask for advice about material that might be original research (OR) or original synthesis.

The policy that governs the issue of original research is Misplaced Pages: No original research (WP:NOR). It says: "Misplaced Pages does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position." For questions about the policy itself, please go to WT:NOR.

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Hundred Days' Reform

The Hundred Days' Reform page references Lei Chiasheng as having a new (2004) theory explaining motives for the Empress Dowager's response to the Reform. I have a suspicion that this is OR, but I don't know much so I want to defer to more experienced editors. A google search for "Lei Chia sheng" returns only 5 hits, all in Chinese (searching "Lei Chiasheng" similarly returns 6 hits).

Agreed. I've been trying to argue for more clarity and better sources but the person who posted doesn't seem to understand my objection and keep citing a source that we can't read because it's in Chinese. Can someone please intervene in this matter? Please see the relevant discussions here. -Comatose51 (talk) 04:43, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

OR?

The Anon IP keeps adding information which just goes to a flight page which I see as WP:OR since it's not a press release and just because there is more flights that you can chose from doesn't make it reliable since there is no press releases about the changes of flights. Bidgee (talk) 16:38, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

This was posted in the AN page but I've moved it here. Bidgee (talk) 03:20, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, OR policy does allow for the descriptive use of primary sources in the event that a non-specialist reader can easily verify that the Misplaced Pages text has correctly described the contents of the primary source. So, we could do without press releases if we could link to flight information tables which clearly showed an increase to double-daily service starting in October (as I believe is the issue here). However, the link provided by the anon does not provide clear primary-source information, but rather makes you search it out yourself. I went through myself to check the information, and while it does appear to be true, there's no good way to link to the results. Since it does not appear possible to supply an easy link to primary information (in this case, flight info tables) clearly confirming the added Misplaced Pages content, I would say that, yup, the added content runs afoul of OR policy. Mr. IP 《Defender of Open Editing》 09:06, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. Are you seriously arguing that statements that are verifiable and true, and that you yourself have verified to be so, should still be deleted because some hypothetical reader might not be able to verify it? I think the principle should be interpreted as, if you are a non-specialist yourself, and you have been able to verify it, then the source is good. lk (talk) 16:21, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Yamashita's gold

In the Yamashita's gold article, an editor makes dubious claims that several court documents lend credence to their opinion of events. The wording is twisted and skewed, at best, to advance the editor’s point of view. There are no independent third-party sources that support these opinions.

The article is a mish-mash of legal piffle, and the talk-page is a battlefield of redundancy

Yamashita's_gold#Related_legal_action

I guess my question is this an OR issue, or POV issue? Jim (talk) 08:27, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

JimBob, I would say that the use of a primary source here is legitimate, as the paragraph appears (based only on skimming) to be an accurate summary of the court case whose text is used as a source — so I wouldn't really say it's OR, with the exception of this statement: Thus, there has been a judicial finding based upon substantial evidence that at least some portion of Yamashita's gold was found.. That statement should ideally be backed by secondary sourcing.

However, yeah, there's definitely a POV issue and general issues with the balance of the article and the integration of the information. This section does little to inform the reader about the larger subject of Yamashita's gold, and opens many questions that it does not answer. More than anything, there are context issues with this section, I think. Mr. IP 《Defender of Open Editing》 13:57, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

___________

The statement: Thus, there has been a judicial finding based upon substantial evidence that at least some portion of Yamashita's gold was found has been removed and replaced with a quote directly from the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeal. The section in dispute concerns a lawsuit. The best source as to what transpired in the lawsuit are the official statements of the Court -- the official history of the lawsuit. The statements of the Court are clear (to anyone who can read) and are consistent with the contemporaneous news reports (which are also reliable sources). JimBob has some vested interest in the theory that Yamashita's Gold is an urban legend and resists any material that debunks his pet theory. The sources are irrefutable that Roxas prevailed on his claim against Marcos for converting the treasure.

No discussion of Yamashita's treasure would be complete without a discussion of Roxas' claim that he found the treasure and had it stolen by Marcos. The article would be misleading in its attempt to relegate Yamashita's treasure to an urban myth when some of the highest courts in our country have already recognized the legitimacy of Roxas' claim.

67.120.59.46 (talk) 20:25, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Dispensationalist Theology

I think that maybe I goofed up here: a couple of years ago, I posted some arguments in Dispensationalist Theology, under the section entitled "Biblical arguments in favor of dispensationalism". I had pulled this from an early version of a paper I had written; I had submitted a later version for publication in a book. This book is about to be published, and since it will be copyrighted, I think I need to remove my posting. Do I need to get permission for this? Brwebb (talk) 03:01, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Let me try to address both prongs of the question, copyright and OR. Since the text is original research, you may remove it at any time, though it will be best to leave an explanation on the talk page, as this sounds like a large chunk of text. Once the book has been published, you may want to think about re-adding a summarized version of the material, just to enrich the page, as it will no longer be OR at that point. Alternately, you could leave the current version in place, for reasons explained below.

As to copyright, I can't give you any 100% solid answers, but I believe the policy as stated here is that the original version as submitted to Misplaced Pages would remain under the GFDL copyleft license even after removal, as it was originally promulgated under that license. You continue to hold the right to republish and relicense the material, but the GFDL license on the original version cannot be retracted. Employing a traditional copyright for the new version of the material is non-problematic, per the GFDL.

As for having to remove it, you don't have to if you don't want to — while the new version will be traditionally copyrighted, the old version is perpetually under GFDL and thus not a copyvio. Since it is unpublished original research, it does go against policy...but it's about to be published, so it's borderline and will soon be acceptable under the "Citing oneself" clause of OR policy. Do you want the text removed, or are you just worried that it has to be?

If any of this needs clarification, or you find any of it acceptable, I suggest an e-mail to the OTRS system. Mr. IP 《Defender of Open Editing》 06:49, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Bump mapping (sixth generation consoles)

Nearly all of the Bump mapping (sixth generation consoles) article looks like original research (quite apart fromthe turgid writing). It's possible that maybe I don't get it -- but is there someone who can take a look and advise about what should be done with the article? Thanks. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 02:12, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

first step is to look for additional sources. DGG (talk) 03:10, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Forget that. That article is full of nonsense. I took a grad class in 3D graphics. Moving to AfD. More kids will hate me. VasileGaburici (talk) 04:48, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

The article was merely against traditionalist's pride based views, there were enough resources to say that the most important view changing facts were accurate. If you did not agree, then you don't believe your own eyes, deeper analysis or think the stupid lies about hardware, coming from bull crap hardwired only traditionalists. They are not fact, their coding is the equivelant to an art program with effect buttens. Ps2's GL is from scratch and therefore unlimited in design respectfull to it's ops in the realm of GFX, other traditionalists want to beleive it is emulation, yet they don't even emulate a coding architecture. Merely they do the math from scratch and once again...yep, effect butten style coding is all the other is. PERIOD.

VasileGaburici...though you went to a class, did it try to tell you the truth on height mapping (how you merely need to deepen the contrast for a similar look, yet costs less ops then normal mapping), or how hardwiring is full of nasty redundant repetition and waists the consumers money when buying all these under used, unoptimized Graphics cards. No, as they are not to the level of programming and design. Sorry, but your classes are filled with limited knowledge. Your class is merely telling you how to code it or other, IT IS NOT THE SAME SUBJECT OF WHAT THEY ARE. Remeber that like that class, many tuts on the web are not done in a manner of basic fact of what really is going on, usually they merely tell you what it does by looks, telling how they make them 3d-ish and what not. Zoom in, and you'll see that even normal mapping, under low class lighting, still exists and YES WORKS WITH BLOCKY SHADING (HitMan:BM). Phong is beleived to be something it's not, sorry everyone, other resources reveal that it uses a texture map and is only for interpolation of blockyness. ALL HARDWARE ELETIST ARE IMMATURE PROGRAMMING FRAUDS AND ARE A NATURAL FANBOY. They all deserve to be bannished from this realm of computer arts forever for their years of limited facts missleading people into thinking the effects are that great.--BobtheVila (talk) 23:10, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh yeah, does a PC need much much more requirments due to it's multitasking architecture? Boy, cause xbox has any extra texture or RAM compression that it uses (sniker). The answer is yes, yes it does. The PC software cannot be trusted as a fair comparison with hardware.--BobtheVila (talk) 23:25, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Racism faced by Bihari people in India

The title of this article has kept changing but the OR has largely remained the same. Its this - there purportedly is a "anti-Bihari sentiment" going round in India. Never mind the fact that Biharis enjoy the same rights under the Indian constitution as everyone else and weild political power far in excess of several other states combined. I looked, but I couldnt find one citation in the whole article that made the assertion but the "causes" for the said sentiment can be found synthesised here anyway.

Now since they just proved that there is such a sentiment, if we would only be so kind as to help them right wrongs (even if only imaginary) and fight injustice on Misplaced Pages - even if it flew in the face of WP:OR, WP:SYN, WP:POV and such other perfectly negotiable policies. Sarvagnya 19:22, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I am still not sure if the title is appropriate though I decided to give up fighting for a change after persistent resistance from the initial author of the article. However, there are plenty of reliable references in the article which details violence and descrimination against Biharis.

The article is not about whether Biharis have equal or more rights under Indian constitution. However, I admit that this is an important assertion which needs to be made in the article. It would be also appropriate to add "that Biharis wield political power far in excess of several other states combined" as mentioned by User Sarvagnya with citations from reliable sources.Docku 20:19, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

We are trying (since very recently) to improve articles related to Bihar on wikipedia and also to write new articles to cover all aspects related to Bihar. Our key concern is correctness of informations and also protection of correct informations. Discrimination faced by Biharis in India is an issue and the sole purpose of the article is to provide information related to it. I disagree that it's an original research. There are many news articles , papers and books to support it. It might be appropriate to place an under construction tag for some time. Manoj nav (talk) 12:18, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

The term 'Anti-Bihari sentiments' might appear synthesised from the sources which discuss about violence and discrimination faced by Biharis in India. Discrimination/Racism is a better term to describe what Biharis faces, instead of exploring and making conclusion about the sentiments, which drive these violences. Keeping this in mind, it would be appropriate to title the article - 'Discrimination faced by Biharis in India' or something similar. Manoj nav (talk) 15:28, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I have disagreed with the current title in the past here. Manoj nav (talk) 12:55, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure if the references support descrimination as well. They support violence for sure. Docku 13:00, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

The discussion here talks about references which supports racism and descrimination. Manoj nav (talk) 15:42, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Considering it more carefully and sharing the similar sentiments of User:Sarvagnya, I have questions to Manoj. Well, I agree that section Causes are referenced and independently verifiable and the same is true with violence against the migrants in various parts of India. The issue is not a question of verifiability. I have no problem with that.

However, what is really missing is reliable sources which discuss the link between the violence and the causes. Without such reliable sources, claiming that violence against the migrants was caused by the causes listed (historical, social, cultural and economical) is original research. I hope I conveyed the message well to you. DockuHi 14:41, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Causes with Violence

Hi Docku

I dont know if you read all the references, but pls read

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/showcolumns.aspx?id=COLEN20080042337 > Looks at causes of the violence (cultural, economic).

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Raj_to_India_Inc_80_jobs_for_Marathis/articleshow/2939094.cms > Links economic causes with the violence in Maharashtra

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7&section=0&article=35469&d=23&m=11&y=2003&pix=opinion.jpg&category=Opinion > M J Akbar links history, cultural with the violence

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=&id=7737db7e-a9b5-4d88-802f-3afaff0985d4&&Headline=The+EMBhaiyya+%2fEMEffect&strParent=strParentID

"All this contributes to the lack of regard for UP and Bihar in many parts of India. In Bangalore, a few years ago, a successful software executive told me that he had compiled a growth rate for south India and that it exceeded China's. "It is UP and Bihar that let us down," he said. Such sentiments are common. The face of India that we show to the world — hi-tech, Bollywood-glitzy and super-educated — has nothing to do with UP and Bihar. For many Indians, the two states have become an embarrassment." links growth rates to resenment and prejudice

Current situation and comparison with Racism "The roots of Raj Thackeray's attack on the Bhaiyyas lie in India's economic transformation. Through a combination of poor planning and worse politics, Bihar and UP have been left out of the economic revolution. When people from those states travel outside to find work, those who have benefited from the recent prosperity treat them with the kind of snobbery and disdain with which the British treated Indians when we went to England to find employment in the 1950s. Then, we were seen as losers from a place that would never manage to prosper.But, of course, Indians ignored the racism and rose to the top of the economic pyramid. And eventually, India shed its old image and went from being perceived as an underdeveloped wasteland to becoming an emerging superpower. It may be too optimistic to hope that something similar will happen to UP and Bihar. But we need to recognise that the disdain with which we treat the two states is both unfair and unnecessary. And the rulers of UP and Bihar need also to realise that there "

Adding a line to differnetiate with previous unsigned statements.--Deepak D'Souza 09:28, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I have been opposed to this article from its nomiation for deletion. The recurring problems , arguments and renamings all stem from one single point. It is original research. Period. None of the sources mentioned ever said that Biharis face racism. Instead most references are articles that mention that Biharis have been attacked here and there or that xyz has made an adverse or threatening comment against Biharis.

As pointed by Sarvagnya, this article is largely WP:SYNTH. Take the above paragraph. The article(written by a reputed journalist) taken as a source compares the situation faced by Bihari migrants to that of Indians in the UK decades ago. The writer of the above message claims that 1)Indians faced racism from Whites. 2)the author of the article has compared the situation with Bihari migrants today. Hence by associativity, what Biharis face today is also "racism". This is pure synthesis.

Biharis belong to the same race as 75% of Indians. The people who allegedly "discriminate against them racially" also largely belong to the same race. So how can it be racism?

The article has become a soapbox where a disgruntled Biharis are venting their frustrations against the "rest of India".

Biharis arent the only ones who have seen discrimination on geographic grounds. Every ethnic group that has migrated somewhere has had to face this. Never mind that Biharis too indulge in the very same actions that they complain of. Recently Laloo Yadav made a comment against Kannadigas. Of course like every good politician he denied it. What about the attack and molestation of athletes from the North east that took place in Bihar 4-5 years back? Should I list some of the slurs and jibes commonly used by people from the Hindi belt against others? Will I be justified in making an article titled "Racism by Biharis against non-Biharis" in the same tone as this article? --Deepak D'Souza 09:28, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Is citing research that contradicts the claim of a Fringe theory WP:SYN?

Are references to research that contradict the claims made by a fringe theory Synthesis if the research papers did not explicitly seek to disprove the fringe theory?

Hypothetical: Group F Theory claims that "eating fat reduces heart attacks". Is inserting research from mainstream sources that eating fat increases heart attacks synthesis, since the research does not "refer directly to the topic of the article", that is Group F Theory?

I bring this up because on the page Austrian Business Cycle Theory, a theory that claims that business cycles are caused by central banks' manipulation of the money supply, I have inserted material about how mainstream economists have found that central banks' manipulation of the money supply have reduced the severity of business cycles. I am being reverted by someone who claims that this is WP:OR since the papers do not directly address Austrian Business Cycle Theory.

I argue that since the article Austrian Business Cycle Theory is about Business Cycles, the mainstream research on business cycles is obviously relevant. He argues that insertion of any material is Synthesis if the research papers do not explicitly seek to disprove the Austrian Business Cycle Theory.

lk (talk) 04:26, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Technically, yes. WP:SYNTHESIS is somewhat contentious, but it is one that many of us had to swallow despite its sometimes absurd conclusions. You might make a case that we should ignore the rule in this case, since there are certainly a lot more questionable things around, but I don't think you'll get consensus. I'm sure that a mainstream economist has made this point -- we just need to find it. II | (t - c) 04:58, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

In my recent RfA I had a question dealing with something similar. I suggested that just as we have NPOV tags, etc., we have a tag saying "'This article provides no scientific evidence for the existence of X'" or something similar. This seems one way to cope with situations where the main experts in the field have ignored a fringe argument. Doug Weller (talk) 05:20, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

lk's argument is correct in theory: It's not a WP:SYN violation unless "the sources cited are not directly related to the subject of the article" (that's a quote from WP:SYN). If the core of a fringe theory directly contradicts mainstream economics, that's directly relevant. However, this particular case of inserted material does contain SYN violations of a different sort. First, it says "many economists believe" but it merely cites 3 economists. You need to cite a source saying "many economists believe"; it is SYN to just cite 3 economists and conclude this means "many" (of course, you shouldn't fix this by citing 4, or 40 economists; either reword or find a source to support the claim). Second, and more important, the edit says "The Austrian school's theory claims that business cycles are caused by central banks' manipulation of the money supply. However," but I expect that the cited sources do not support this claim (they do not support the "However", since they don't contrast the Austrian school's theory to mainstream theory; nor do they support any claim about the Austrian school). Eubulides (talk) 05:31, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

That Austrian theory claims that "business cycles are caused by central banks" isn't disputed and can easily be cited. So, if I get rid of the "many economists believe", would that make it ok? I can't believe that the mere word "however" is WP:SYN, I cite for that Misplaced Pages:UCS ;) lk (talk) 07:13, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't quite parse that. But yes, getting rid of "many economists believe" would fix one of the specific problems I noted. I suspect the containing sentence would have to be reworded though. Eubulides (talk) 07:10, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

You are presenting opinion of those economists as a criticism of the Austrian school. If such criticism is notable then it is published in reliable sources. If it is not then you should not introduce it because Misplaced Pages is not a publisher of original thought. It is not our job to synthesize published material to advance a position. -- Vision Thing -- 21:14, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I have to disagree. If you are citing the material to criticise the Austrian school, yes. But if you have a section noting a point in the ABCT and what follows it is a point in research that counters that statement, it isn't synthesis to include it. Let's not get crazy here. If I have a person who thinks AIDS is caused by magic and in the next sentence in the article I cite some mainstream result (like, AIDS is caused by the HIV virus), it isn't synthesis just because the researcher didn't mention the crackpot by name. If, on the other hand, you were using the research about business cycles to claim that "researcher A criticized the Austrian School", that would be synthesis. To insist that synthesis somewhow excludes a comparison of claims between fringe (but notable) theories and mainstream theories is untenable. Most scholarship isn't polemical, so you are not likely to find a peer review paper that says "Researcher X doesn't know what he is talking about." You are much more likely to find a paper that says "I can find no support for theory Y" without the comment that theory Y was introduced by researcher X. Protonk (talk) 21:39, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Do we have consensus here that if Scientist A does research that shows a result contradictory to Claim B of Group C. It is not WP:SYN to include it and state that Scientist A has found evidence against Claim B. However, it is WP:SYN to claim that Scientist A believes that Group C is wrong. lk (talk) 06:46, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is not per se WP:SYN to include it. You note one way in which including it could become part of a WP:SYN case, though. Another way would be if Claim B is only peripheral to Group C; in that case, Scientist A's results are not "directly related" to Group C (please look for "directly related" in WP:OR). Clearly there are some judgment calls here. Eubulides (talk) 07:10, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

So, to clarify, it is not WP:SYN to include research that contradicts a claim made by a group. However, it could be WP:SYN if the research is used in inappropriate ways. e.g. a) to claim that Scientist A criticizes Group C, or believes Group C is wrong, or b) to refute Group B over a minor trivial claim, or c) to claim that many scientists believe this refutation without a direct quote as such, etc.... lk (talk) 07:22, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it is WP:SYN to do so. Jayjg 06:02, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

i'm not sure you're ever going to find a nice, simple, boilerplate answer to this question. Since this is an article about the theory itself (rather than about the economy in a broader sense) then you can surely add in cites that speak to refute or contradict this particular theory, and you should certainly have references to competing theories, but you have to be careful not to construct or impute disputes that don't occur in the field itself. if you're going to include contrasting theories, I'd set up a separate section specifically for 'other views' so that readers can see that the theories co-exist in the discipline without specifying a particular relationship. --Ludwigs2 21:03, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, of course it's a violation of WP:NOR and WP:SYN. We don't give editors a pass on WP:SYN simply because they want to debunk some fringe theory or another. Jayjg 06:02, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Which makes Misplaced Pages prime venue for groups of fringe theorists. They cite their own work from obscure publications, and good luck finding anyone directly refuting their claims; people have other things to do than refuting every fringe theory. Try to argue for changing WP:SYN and check the contributions of those opposing any changes or exceptions to the rule. 'Nuff said. VG ☎ 19:50, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

An article's topic is not the same thing as the broader topic to which it may belong. Misplaced Pages is not the place for a pet debunking project. Stick to sources that discuss the article topic, which is not broader economics. Additionally, the argument that there's some pressing need to cite such sources because of a lack of rebutting sources doesn't even apply in this case. There are clearly easily available reliable sources that rebut the theory and they're even included in the article. Vassyana (talk) 06:03, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that it should be Misplaced Pages policy to exclude from articles all references to research unless the source specifically refers to the particular claim by that particular group? So a page about a group that claims that "AIDS is caused by cat allergies" must not include any information about AIDS except that provided by people directly refuting that particular claim? IMO, this is not current policy. Statements are usually considered properly cited if the source directly supports the statement made.

As far as I can tell, our standard appears to be that its not OR to include research that is directly related to a topic being addressed in the article, and a statement is properly sourced if the source directly supports the statement made. In my opinion, what you are suggesting is self-censorship that goes beyond what we currently do. lk (talk) 08:56, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with lk here: if a direct claim is made, reliable sources refuting the evidence that claim relies upon cannot be considered OR or SYN.--Gregalton (talk) 09:12, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Not only is it original research to debunk claims in a fashion not done by reliable sources, it is a violation of the neutral point of view to do so. NPOV says that we must present a topic as it is presented in the body of reliable sources. Constructing our own rebuttals based on the premises of a topic is most certainly not in accord with that. It is also contrary to what Misplaced Pages is not. Three policies, not just one, are contrary to the approach that you are both putting forward here. Vassyana (talk) 11:29, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I believe that what I propose merely acknowledges the current practice of including sources that are directly related to an issue that appears in an article, even if the source does not directly refer to the particular person(s) or group(s) that the article is about. I think we all know this, but here are some examples to back up my statement:

In the page about Margaret Thatcher, the observation that during the early Thatcher years "(VAT) was raised sharply to 15%, with a resultant actual short-term rise in inflation", is sourced to a report about VAT that doesn't specifically make the connection between Margaret Thatcher and inflation. Or, in the article about the 9/11 attacks, reference is made to "bin Laden's declaration of a holy war against the United States", sourced to reports before the 9/11 attacks. Obviously this statement is relevant, even though the reports were not directly referring to the 9/11 attacks. Or, in the article about Global warming denialists, note is made of Kivalina v. ExxonMobil as the first climate-change lawsuit with a discretely identifiable victim, sourced to an article about the lawsuit that does not directly address the topic of Global warming denial. lk (talk) 10:20, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

The Thatcher example is blatantly original research, as the source not only fails to mention Thatcher but also fails to mention the 15% figure or the United Kingdom. The 9/11 article uses a source that specifically makes reference to 9/11 investigations, which is obviously fine. The global warming denial article speaks about a lawsuit (and uses sources that) explicitly refer to the denial of man-made global warming. As a clear example, the New York Times (an obviously reliable source) relates that the filed lawsuit says that the corporate campaign "to mislead the public about the science of global warming" contributed "to the public nuisance of global warming by convincing the public at large and the victims of global warming that the process is not man-made when in fact it is."

Your first example was a clear case of original research and the other two use sources that explicitly refer to the article subject. Vassyana (talk) 11:29, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Your opinion that the Thatcher reference is OR is inline with your beliefs. It does not however disprove my contention that this type of citation is currently common throughout wikipedia. Obviously the 9/11 article reference doesn't fit. However, it should be easy to come up with more examples. lk (talk) 11:49, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

The Thatcher reference did not support any of the statement being made. It did not support the claim that Thatcher preferred indirect over direct taxes. It did not support the statement that the VAT was raised sharply to 15%. It did not support the statement that there was an accompanying short-term spike in inflation. That's all of the claims made in the statement and the source did not support a single one. That's clearly original research, if not a blatantly false reference. Regardless, I'm sure better examples exist, but that just means there are articles that need to brought in-line with the principles and policies of Misplaced Pages, not that the fundamental principles of Misplaced Pages need to be changed. The position you are putting forward contradicts three of our policies, as I note above, and would require drastic sweeping changes to multiple policies and guidelines. Vassyana (talk) 12:02, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

• Looking at the sources quoted at the end of the lede of Austrian Business Cycle Theory, it appears there are reliable sources that criticise the theory and state that it is not widely supported. Criticisms or rebuttals of the theory should be based on such sources, rather than on editors' OR.
• Basically, any significant-minority theory will have attracted comment and criticism from the majority that should be reflected in our article. If it has not, it is a fringe theory that may be without encyclopedic relevance whatsoever, unless it is notable enough to have attracted published attention from scientists working in other fields, e.g. sociologists, psychologists etc.
• None of this requires any change to WP:SYN, which should be scrupulously adhered to. Jayen466 14:08, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I would think the soulution to this would be something along the lines of: "The Austrian Theory claims that business cycles are caused by central banks' manipulation of the money supply. This is the opposite of mainstream economic theory, which states that manipulation of the money supply by central banks reduces business cycles." (with proper citations for both statements of course). Don't attempt to "disprove" or "debunk" one theory or the other... simply state what each side of the debate says. Blueboar (talk) 14:22, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

This is exactly my position. However, unless I misunderstand them, Vassyana and Jayen seem to be arguing that it is WP:SYN to include any source that does not directly refer to the narrowly defined topic (ie. defined by the title) of the article. So, an article about the Wild cats of Asia should reject as sources articles about wild cats that don't refer specifically to Asian wild cats. lk (talk) 14:57, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

That's essentially correct. To use your hypothetical example, it's fine to cite those portions of such an article that expressly address wild cats native to Asia in the article on "Asian wild cats", but not those that discuss "Wild cats" in general. Such portions can be used as sources in the article on "Wild cats". Jayen466 15:05, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I believe you understand my position correctly. There is absolutely no need to circumvent Misplaced Pages principles or create a loophole to fully address the topic, including the kinds of facts you would like to include. All it takes is a minimal effort to find plentiful sources. I will provide a couple of examples:

The Routledge Encyclopedia of International Political Economy (ISBN 9780415243506), on page 53 under "Austrian School", relates the the principal distinctions between mainstream economics and Austrian economics can be boiled down to the Austrian school of thought rejecting the applicability of the scientific method, statistics and group models to economics.

Business Cycles and Depressions (ISBN 9780824009441, published by Taylor & Francis), on page 26 under "Austrian Theory of Business Cycles", tells us that the differences between Austrian and mainstream economists is because of differences in focus. According to this source, the Austrians focus on intertemporal distortions of capital structure, while mainstream economists concern themselves with downward spirals in general economic activity. It further clarifies that mainstream macroeconomists consider structural problems to be a separate concern from the problems of demand deficiency and general economic contraction. It also clearly states that Austrian economists consider the mainstream policies of economic stimulation to be the root cause of the distortions that are the focus of their theory.

Both sources were found with a "lazy" search in a short period of time. To be sure that further sources are available, I checked a few archival and library resources finding numerous other reliable sources that contrast Austrian and mainstream economics are easily available. Someone more familiar with the topic with access to textbooks and further literature should have no problem at all finding a plethora of high quality references. No original research is necessary. All that's needed is a minuscule amount of effort to find a few reliable sources. Vassyana (talk) 16:38, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

In practice, Misplaced Pages does not exclude sources that do not directly refer to the topic of the article narrowly defined. I know from personal experience that in Tulip Mania, the statement, "vivid colors, lines, and flames on the petals as a result of being infected with a tulip-specific virus known as the 'Tulip Breaking potyvirus', a type of mosaic virus." is referenced with a scientific paper on Tulip Breaking mosaic viruses, not an article about Tulip mania. Additionally, a quick look through Featured Articles, brought up these examples:

• In the page about the game 1080° Snowboarding, the statement "Kenta Nagata, who also composed soundtracks for Mario Kart 64 and other Nintendo games." is sourced with a webpage about Mario Kart 64, which does not mention 1080° Snowboarding.

• In 1980 eruption of Mount St. Helens the statement "over a billion U.S. dollars in damage had occurred ($2.74 billion in 2007 dollars)" is referenced with a paper called "What is a dollar worth?" from the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis.

• In 1994 Black Hawk shootdown incident the statement "These incidents include the killing of four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan by USAF F-16s in the Tarnak Farm incident in 2002 and the killing of a British soldier by USAF A-10s in the 190th Fighter Squadron, Blues and Royals friendly fire incident in 2003." is sourced with an article that does not mention the 1994 Black Hawk shootdown.

• In the article on Bhumibol Adulyadej, the King of Thailand, the statement "The Senate declined to vote to override his veto." is sourced to an article that does not mention the King by name or otherwise.

• In the article about Aikido, the explanation of the Chinese character used to write the word 'ki', "The original kanji for ki was 氣 (shown right), and is a symbolic representation of a lid covering a pot full of rice; the "nourishing vapors" contained within are ki." is sourced to an article about the Chinese philosophical concept of 'qi', the article does not mention Aikido.

• In Ann Arbor, Michigan, the statement "Snowfall, which normally occurs from November to April, ranges from 1 to 10 inches (3 to 25 cm) per month." is sourced with the article Season Weather Averages for Willow Run (KYIP). Willow run is near Detroit Air port, Ann Arbor is not mentioned.

• In Apollo 8, the statement "Jim Lovell's spacesuit can be found at NASA's Glenn Research Center." is sourced with an article that does not mention the Apollo 8 mission.

• In Article 153 of the Constitution of Malaysia the statement "in the 2004 general election, the DAP ran on a platform of defending the social contract in the context of an Islamic theocracy, which they alleged was forbidden by the Constitution, but was endorsed by Mahathir, Lim Keng Yaik and by PAS, the second-largest Malay-based political party in the country." is sourced with an article that does not mention Article 153 of the Constitution.

Since they have gone through extensive review, these articles are prima facie free of synthesis. I believe that what we as editors do is ask, 'Is that statement directly related to the topic of the article?' And then, 'Does the source directly support the statement made?' If the answer is yes to both questions, then in general editors will hold that the statement and source are valid, and that no WP:SYN has occurred.

So, to sum up, I propose that the stricture directly related should apply strongly to statements sourced, but apply only weakly to the sources themselves. Similar to the policy on WP:NPV. Statements in an article must be made in an WP:NPV manner, but sources themselves do not have to be WP:NPV, as long as they are not so biased that they become unreliable. lk (talk) 16:25, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I believe there is a small but very active group on WP:NOR who keeps pushing the idea that any source used in the article must literally contain the string "Asian Wild Cats", and there are many FA-status articles that don't strictly abide by this. While I feel that it is a useful heurustic to weed out things that are off-topic, the rule if taken without allowances for synonyms, merged articles, background information, etc would (and does) lead to endless WP:LAME arguments. I feel that this literal interpretation doesn't have anything to do with "original research" per se, because citing a source doesn't generate any novel facts found only on the Misplaced Pages. Instead, the requirement for sources referring directly to the subject should be moved to the WP:RELEVANCE guideline, so it will only have guideline status, not policy status. NOR should be limited to original facts, opinions, and deductions, and not be the judge for if a source is on topic or not. Squidfryerchef (talk) 17:02, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

No one to my knowledge is pushing the "literal string" formulation. Synonyms and other obvious references to the core topic of the article seem perfectly appropriate. Broader overview articles are also generally given an "allowance" in that they may have sections addressing subtopics in some detail that are clearly and explicitly treated as part of the broader topic in reliable sources. However, even with that "exception" we are still treating the topic as it is treated in reliable sources. Presenting rebuttals, claiming information is salient and important to the topic, stating that certain topics are related and so on when reliable sources do not make those claims seem like good examples of original research. Vassyana (talk) 18:04, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

lk, I would take issue with numerous entries on that list. For the Tulip Mania article, the scientific reference appears to be supplementary to a reference that actually supports the statement. The eruption article makes a simple numerical conversion with a reference to support the conversion, which is a rare occurance and uncontroversial. Supplemental sources and simple calculations are fairly uncontroversial in most circumstances and not really relevant to the kind of exception that you are endorsing. Many of the remainder reveal flaws in our review processes, more than being indicative of good practice. (It's well-known that even the best sources have some flaws, so it's not surprising.)

As examples: The Blackhawk incident reference only supports claims British soldiers that aren't even made in the article and none of the claims for which it is cited. The Bhumibol Adulyadej reference is deeply flawed. It not only fails to mention the king, it completely fails to mention any veto and instead casts it in light of a court ruling stating that the original confirmation was unconstitutional. While it is part of Detroit Metro, Ann Arbor should instead cite statistics for Ann Arbor, such as those available here. The Article 153 paragraph is not only off-topic, but is also sourced to an opposition party press release. Vassyana (talk) 18:04, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Most of these examples are examples where citations should be replaced with improved ones, rather than examples of reasonable use of material that doesn't directly refer to the topic. The FA process is good, and fairly rigorous, but the people involved are just volunteers, who have lots of things to do. I've seen FAs pass with simple spelling errors in them. This isn't a condemnation of the process, merely pointing out that the reviewers are self-selected volunteers. Jayjg 18:48, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

... and given that Lovell took part in two Apollo missions (8 and 13), that spacesuit might well have been the one he wore on Apollo 13, making this a bad cite and an instance of going beyond the source (as it happens, it is the Apollo 8 spacesuit that is exhibited, and I've added a reference in Apollo 8 that makes that clear). Likewise, in the Aikido example, there are plenty of better sources like this one or this one that discuss ki as a central element of Aikido and explain the origin of the ideogram. Re Squidfryerchef, of course synonyms are fine. A source that refers to "wild cats native to Asia" or "Asiatic wild cats", or indeed the "Indian desert cat", may be perfectly appropriate. But a generic source on felids that, say, looks at the evolutionary relationship between the Felidae and Canidae, or the dentition patterns found in Felidae, without mentioning a single Asiatic species, really has no business being cited in an article on "Asian wild cats". Jayen466 00:00, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Prontok mentioned that most scholarship isn't polemical. If most scholarship really isn't polemical why would we need to create polemic artificially here on Misplaced Pages? In the case of ATBC, arguments of several economists who are not talking about ATBC are placed in the "Criticisms" section. But why? Those economists are not criticizing ATBC, it is opinion of some Wikipedians that they do and that opinion is not supported by reliable sources.

I see that argument "we must draw our own conclusions or fringe theories would go uncontested" is used a lot by some here. In my view that is a wrong kind of argument to make. Misplaced Pages has a notability threshold – claims, especially controversial ones, need to be supported by reliable sources. There are good odds that reliable sources will mention controversy if it exists. If they don't that still doesn't pose a problem. In the case of ATBC we have general articles on business cycles, money supply and central banks where giving proper place to the views of mainstream economists is not OR. Placing views of those economists in topics to which they are not directly referring to is not only breach of WP:OR but also of WP:NOTSOAPBOX. Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox, not even for a mainstream views. -- Vision Thing -- 20:32, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Let me try to clarify the opposition argument: 'Sources must be excluded if they do not directly refer to the topic of an article, narrowly defined according to the title of the article. Your examples of Featured articles not following this policy is irrelevant because Featured Articles are written by amateurs and contain sources that they shouldn't. Therefore, we are right.' lk (talk) 03:43, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

We have at least 4 mainstream critiques of the theory. Currently I'm browsing through a book by David Laidler which discusses the theory, having skimmed a Bank of International Settlements discussion paper by him which briefly discusses it. The criticism you are synthesizing is not apparent in any of these sources. That raises the question of whether it is really a valid criticism, as you believe. This is a textbook case of synthesis. It's not really a gray area. II | (t - c) 04:22, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure that someone, somewhere, has made this argument about Austrian theory. We'll get the cite eventually. I just object to the principle 'all references that don't refer to the name of the article must be excluded'. lk (talk) 08:00, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I also object to the principle that the source must refer to the name of the article. At Chiropractic, for example, some editors object to citing sources about the effectiveness of spinal manipulation, using the WP:FRINGE argument that "chiropractic spinal manipulation" is distinct from "spinal manipulation" and that, therefore, spinal manipulation is not directly relevant to chiropractic. Obviously the sources in question could be removed from Chiropractic, but they tend to be the most-reliable sources cited (Cochrane Collaboration reviews, etc.), as neither mainstream medicine nor mainstream chiropractic buys the fringe argument in question. Removing these high-quality sources will cause Chiropractic to rely on weaker sources and inevitably will make Chiropractic less reliable and more POV-ish. For more on this topic, please see Talk:Chiropractic#Request for Comment: Excluding treatment reviews. Eubulides (talk) 20:45, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Ditto. (BTW, Misplaced Pages's article on "ditto" is wrong, this isn't a slang phrase!) VG ☎ 20:54, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

If you want to change the policy, let's be open about that. But what you're saying is clearly WP:SYNTH by the policy as it is stated on WP:NOR. The example of Smith and Jones on that page is quite analagous -- you can find some fact which directly contradicts the statement of someone makes, but if you cite that fact as if it does contradict the statement, you're synthesizing to create original research. Eubulides, if the researchers in the field believe that general SM is appropriate for discussing chiropractic SM, then they will use it. If they don't, they won't, and if you're using it and they don't, clearly you're injecting your own opinion that it is appropriate. And in fact they do use it, with some mainstream researchers objecting that its not applicable, so it seems like you're way exaggerating an issue. II | (t - c) 21:46, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Eubulides has already agreed that the argument that "chiropractic spinal manipulation" is distinct from "spinal manipulation" is NOT a fringe argument. Edzard Ernst has commented that not all spinal manipulation research is related to chiropractic spinal manipulation. Given that, the inclusion of non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research at Chiropractic would violate WP:OR if this non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research makes no conclusions specifically about chiropractic spinal manipulation. Because how are we - as editors - supposed to know which non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research can be related to chiropractic spinal manipulation and which ones cannot be related? -- Levine2112 21:58, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I am not proposing any change in policy, no WP:SYNTH is involved, and the Smith-and-Jones example doesn't apply to the dispute at Chiropractic. At the risk of repeating that other discussion, no mainstream researchers of chiropractic have objected that spinal manipulation is not directly relevant to chiropractic. The objection by mainstream researchers was about not clearly identifying research sources, which is quite a different issue. Eubulides (talk) 22:03, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes and no. Ernst states: The authors also claim that 43 randomized, controlled trials of spinal manipulation for back pain have been published, but they fail to mention that most of them do not relate to chiropractic spinal manipulation. So yes, Ernst objects that the authors failed to clearly identify research sources. But no, that is not a different issue. Ernst is stating that not all trials of spinal manipulation relate to chiropractic. In fact, he feels that the majority of the 43 which the authors looked at do not. WP:OR states: ...to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that refer directly to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented. So if we have a source which doesn't refer directly to chiropractic, then using it to discuss the effectiveness of chiropractic at the article Chiropractic would present an OR violation. Right? And WP:SYN states: If the sources cited do not explicitly reach the same conclusion, or if the sources cited do not refer directly to the subject of the article, then the editor is engaged in original research. Currently we are using sources at Chiropractic to discuss the effectiveness of chiropractic, but many of these sources are not explicitly about chiropractic nor do they explicity reach any conclusions specifically about chiropractic. They are sources which have studied spinal manipulation in general (often times as performed by practitioners other than chiropractors). Given that these sources reach conclusions about spinal manipulation in general, and given that mainstream researchers such as Ernst claim that not all spinal manipulation research is related to chiropractic, wouldn't you agree that the inclusion of non-chirorpactic spinal manipulation research at Chiropractic to discuss the effectiveness of chiropractic violates WP:OR? -- Levine2112 22:18, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

And to generalize this - and shed some light on the topic of this thread - here, we have a theory (chiropractic is not fringe, but it does straddle both the alternative and mainstream medicine worlds) which some users are trying to debunk or support by citing research which doesn't specifically discuss chiropractic. Applying such research to chiropractic is of course a violation of WP:OR. So yes, citing research which doesn't specifically mention a theory but can be interpretted by a Wikipedian to contradict such a theory is a WP:SYN violation because it is using the research in an original way - a way which wasn't the intent of the authors of the research. -- Levine2112 00:03, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I think in cases like this we fall into a difficult area. Many sources assert that (by far) most uses of a technique is part of a particular profession. That technique is strongly associated with the specific profession in sources and the public mind. Many references regarding that profession treat studies of the practice as applicable to the study and critique of the profession. On the other hand, there are numerous criticisms of this conflation. Many sources state that using broader studies of the technique are inappropriate because they include data pollution by regarding use of the practice outside of the profession's theories and techniques. A number of reliable authorities further critique the use of such broad studies to focus on the negatives, relating it to focusing on pharmaceutical side effects when discussing doctors of medicine (MDs).

I believe that in such cases extreme care must be exercised and that it is a very difficult balancing act. It cannot be disputed that the practice is widely considered an integral part of the profession, yet it is equally indisputable that the conflation is strongly criticized. Personally, I would lean towards treating the practice as an appropriate subtopic of the broader profession (based on the general treatment of it as such within sources and the public mind), while carefully and clearly noting that a few outside researchers & many within the profession dispute the conflation (and why they dispute it). Strong caution must be exercised to ensure that such a section does not become little more than a debunking platform or promotional soapbox, choosing a very careful and representative selection of sources. Of course, that's much easier said than done!! Vassyana (talk) 05:08, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I generally agree with Vassyana here. Please see #Alzheimer's article can't cite dementia papers? below for more (this section got too long). Eubulides (talk) 06:31, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Vassyana, where would be the better place to discuss spinal manipulation research which is not directly related to chiropractic? At Chiropractic or Spinal manipulation? Do you think that using non-chiropractic spinal manipulation studies which in themselves make no direct conclusions about chiropractic should be used in the Chiropractic article to make direct conclusions about chiropractic? Or would that be violating WP:OR? Please take into consideration that researchers such as Edzard Ernst have commented that not all spinal manipulation research is related to chiropractic spinal manipulation (much less directly related). -- Levine2112 18:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

The studies in question are not "non-chiropractic"; they incorporate data, mostly from chiropractic sources, but sometimes from non-chiropractic, and make conclusions about the main form of treatment used by chiropractors. Obviously some spinal manipulation research is non-chiropractic, but that is not the case for the studies being disputed here. Eubulides (talk) 19:44, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

They are non-chiropractic in the sense that they say nothing specifically about chiropractic in their conclusions (regardless of whether or not they relied on some chiropractic data). They discuss spinal manipulation in general, a form of treament used by other professions as well and tell us nothing about chiropractic specifically. Using such sources to talk about chiropractic at Misplaced Pages is in effect using a source for a purpose not intended by its authors. That is an OR violation. -- Levine2112 19:59, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

There is no requirement in WP:OR that sources for Chiropractic must say something specifically about chiropractic "in their conclusions". Their discussion of chiropractic can occur in any section; it need not be in their conclusions section. Eubulides (talk) 20:29, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Of course there is such a requirement: to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that...directly support the information as it is presented and Take care, however, not to go beyond what is expressed in the sources or to use them in ways inconsistent with the intent of the source, such as using material out of context and especially Even with well-sourced material, however, if you use it out of context or to advance a position that is not directly and explicitly supported by the source used, you as an editor are engaging in original research. You are wanting to use conclusions which say nothing spefically about chiropractic out of context to advance positions such as "chiropractic is effective for treating foo" or "chiropractic is not effective for treating foo". In actuality these sources might say that "spinal manipulation is or isn't effective for treating foo"; however they are not referring to chiropractic specifically. Ernst has told us that not all spinal manipulation research relates to chiropractic. Therefore, we cannot relate all spinal manipulation to chiropractic. We have to find sources which refer to chiropractic specifically in the conclusions from which we are source the text we include in the article. If the don't mention chiropractic specifically, then they are probably more appropriate for the Spinal manipulation article. -- Levine2112 21:00, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Nothing in those quotes requires the source to support the claim in the source's conclusion section. Eubulides (talk) 03:49, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

What does that mean? Misplaced Pages needs to require that the sources we use support the conclusions of those sources? That's a very confusing statement. Perhaps you can reword and clarify for me. -- Levine2112 04:05, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

SYNTH is absurd sometimes, completely absurd, yet if consensus is not available it is something we just have to stick to. I don't know how to get around this necessity. It's one of those situations where there aren't any technical ways to define when it is appropriate and when it is not, and the community has opted to simply ban it. I agree with Doug Weller that a tag might work for such articles, though "no scientific evidence" is itself SYNTH and is also not scientific as it asserts negative evidence. However, some such tag might really help. I agree that yes, it seems directly relevant, yet at the same time, there is no getting away from the argument that it's SYNTH ""A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article." Look at Misplaced Pages:Fringe#Parity_of_sources. You can have less RS sources in a criticism, as long as you use good ATT. But no, the problem is that allowing any SYNTH at all leads to abuses or arguments which would destroy WP. I have to agree with Vassayana, that no matter how illogical it may be in a particular case, unless there is complete and total and enduring consensus we have to stick to sources that discuss the article topic. Please also note that people are sometimes forgetting about WP:NOTABILITY. If a thing is included at all, it will have criticism if it is controversial. SYNTH is very old and basic policy, and it doesn't make sense except when you start to understand that anyone can do it. Now, there is an example about Margaret Thatcher above. I think that comes under my exception for complete consensus. If it is not controversial at all, we IAR with SYNTH. That as Ik says, is common practice. In the current situation, however, it is controversial, and therefore SYNTH must be strictly adhered to. Let me formulate it again: WP embraces OR, SYNTH and whatever, but only when it isn't controversial. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 23:56, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Let's return to that initial example, but make it more analogous to the passage in question.

1. Group A says that eating fat reduces heart attacks.
2. Group B notes that various people have eaten less fat in the hope of reducing heart attacks, and have indeed had less severe heart attacks than other people.

Now,

1. How much fat, by what measure, did group A mean?
2. How much fat, by what measure, did group B eat?
3. How much fat, by what measure, did those ”other people” eat?

The passage in question, as it is written, doesn't stand as respectable science, “original” or otherwise. —SlamDiego_←T 17:17, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Alzheimer's article can't cite dementia papers?

I agree with Vassyana that it's a tricky area. However, I wanted to clarify the particular case of Chiropractic. There is no dispute among reliable sources that the profession (chiropractic) and the treatment (spinal manipulation) are distinct topics. The dispute here is not whether the two topics should be distinguished (we all agree that they should be, and Chiropractic #Evidence basis carefully distinguishes them); the dispute is whether spinal manipulation is directly related to chiropractic, or (to use the current formulation in WP:NOR, which is mutating as we speak—talk about a confusing situation!) whether it's OK to cite a source on spinal manipulation that "refers directly" to chiropractic, and which "directly supports the information as it is presented", even if the source's reference to chiropractic is not in the source's title or abstract or conclusion.

To take a different example, Alzheimer's disease, a featured article, cites multiple sources that are not primarily about Alzheimer's, which hardly mention Alzheimer's, or which don't mention Alzheimer's at all. For example, it cites Thompson et al. 2007 (PMID 17662119), which is about dementia in general, not about Alzheimer's in particular; that article barely mentions Alzheimer's in passing. I would be quite skeptical of any claim that it's WP:OR for Alzheimer's disease to cite Thompson et al.; but if it is, there are lots more citations like that in Alzheimer's disease, and lots more like that in many featured articles. It's hard for me to believe that WP:OR is really intended to ban citations like these. Eubulides (talk) 06:31, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

So basically we have an article about pies. In that article, in a section about the tastiness of pies, you want to include information about the tastiness of tacos. The taco information comes from a source which does not mention pies in its conclusions about the tastiness of tacos. Are you asking if it is okay to include the taco information in the pie article if you promise to clearly distinguish the taco information from the pie information? I think it becomes a question of relevance and confusion - which in turn can create an OR/SYN issue. By merely presenting the taco information in the pie tastiness subsection, you are leading the reader to believe that the taco information is somehow directly related to the pie information. Sure, it's easy for the reader to keep the two items straight in their head - taco and pies? very different - but it can lead to some confusion, which is why the taco information should be kept in the taco article and the pie information should be kept in the pie article.

Okay, now let's change tacos to cobblers. Cobblers are much more similar to pie than tacos. Some might even classify cobblers as a type of pie. Of course there are others that feel that cobblers and pies, although somewhat related, are two distinct things. So let's say that there is general disagreement in the mainstream scientific community about whether or not cobblers are related to pies. Thus there would be disagreement about whether or not all pie tastiness studies are related to cobbler tastiness. So the question becomes: Is it okay to discuss pie tastiness studies (which make no conclusions about cobblers) in the cobbler article? What if we keep it very clear when we are talking about pie research and when we are talking about cobbler research? Would it be okay then? My answer is no. It still violates OR and now it is even more confusing for the reader than with the pie/taco scenario. Because there is mainstream disagreement about whether or not pie research and cobbler research are directly related, the presentation of pie research at the cobbler article would seem to be taking sides in the great pie vs. cobbler debate. Thus, we would be using the pie research which makes no mention of cobbler tastiness or the pie vs. cobbler debate to further push one side of the debate. This is using a source in a way not intended by the author and thus it is a violation of OR.

-- Levine2112 18:26, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

The specific question in this section is about Alzheimer's disease, not about pies. Is it WP:OR for that article to cite a source about dementia? Eubulides (talk) 19:44, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

In general, yes, although there may be an off-case where it is appropriate. The real problem comes when you cite dementia papers misleadingly, as if the sources themselves are relating dementia to Alzheimer's. This is certaintly synth. This often happens when you string two sentences together, one related to the subject, the other not. For instance, if you said that "Alzheimer's has no known or agreed upon cause, although certain genetic factors will lead to early-onset Alzheimer's. However, dementia can be caused by syphilis and nutritional deficienes..." – you're misleading the reader into thinking that Alzheimer's can be caused by syphilis. This is exactly analogous to the situation with Austrian business cycle. The reader is mislead into thinking that these sources are refuting Austrian theory, when really these sources don't say anything about the Austrian business cycle, and are thus not engaging its arguments. The synthesizer is using them to engage the argument of the Austrian business cycle -- original research. And the fact that the mainstream critiques of the theory have not brought up this point raises questions about its legitimacy. II | (t - c) 19:53, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Please, let's talk about this specific case, not about some hypothetical case about pies or syphilis. Let me make this even more specific. Here is a sentence in Alzheimer's #Caregiving burden that cites the source in question (Thompson et al. 2007, PMID 17662119, a source that is about dementia not Alzheimer's):

Cognitive behavioural therapy and the teaching of coping strategies either individually or in group have demonstrated their efficacy in improving caregivers' psychological health.

Note that this claim is not about Alzheimer's either: it is about caregiver burden. So there is no misleading-the-reader here along the lines that you describe. Let us stipulate that the cited source directly supports this claim. Is it WP:OR for this claim to cite this source in Alzheimer's? (I should warn you that if this is OR, then there's a lot of OR in Alzheimer's.) Eubulides (talk) 20:29, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I have some knowledge of this subject from research undertaken when some of my older family members were stricken with Alzheimer's. It is my understanding that Alzheimer's is the most common form of dementia, that studies of dementia not specifically targeting other forms or addressing other root causes are heavily dependent on Alzheimer's data and considered (by reliable sources and professionals) as directly applicable to the consideration of Alzheimer's. If someone with a medical background and/or familiar with medical literature could confirm or deny that understanding, it would be appreciated. Operating on that understanding, it would seem that citing studies of dementia not specifically targeting other forms or addressing other root causes of dementia would be appropriate to cite in relation to Alzheimer's. Vassyana (talk) 01:46, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

It's unlikely that a professional expert in Alzheimer's will wander by here and confirm your understanding. That being said, your understanding is right on target. See, for example, Cotter 2007 (PMID 18095782) and Linday & Anderson 2004 (PMID 15345083). I picked these two only because they're freely readable and popped up early in my Pubmed search; there must be thousands of other medical-journal papers like these two. Eubulides (talk) 07:50, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

No, we can't insert our own opinions about how applicable general dementia research is to Alzheimer's, or vice versa (Alzheimer's to dementia). Find published (or even nonpublished) professional opinions on that issue and put that in the article, but even then you shouldn't be citing general dementia studies in the Alzheimer's article. Both of the abstracts that Eubulides mentioned directly mention Alzheimer's in the first sentence. In any case, citing a general caregiver study in a caregiver section of the Alzheimer's article is pretty noncontentious, and I don't have a problem with it. There's a big difference between that and the contentious synthesized criticism we were discussing above. 08:17, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

The cited source's abstract does not "directly mention Alzheimer's in the first sentence": it does not mention Alzheimer's at all (see Thompson et al. 2007 (PMID 17662119). And the claim in question does not "insert our own opinions"; the claim is directly supported by the cited source. I agree that the citation in question is noncontentious, but the point is that this citation violates the above misreading of WP:NOR, and is evidence that it indeed is a misreading. Eubulides (talk) 16:56, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

When I said both, did you maybe think that I was talking about the two articles you just mentioned from Cotter 2007 and Linday & Anderson? Yes, Thompson does not mention Alzheimer's in the abstract (although he probably does in the paper), but as I said, that is noncontentious statement. I'm willing to allow something noncontentious and fairly standard; caregiving for demented people is pretty standard. If someone challenged it out of their opinion that caregiving Alzheimer's patients is unique, then I would say it should be removed. II | (t - c) 18:07, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Editor(s) arguing over which is the best translation.

At Persian Revolt we have an editor saying "According to the account of the struggle6 which is most circumstantial and on the whole most probable" (do take a look at the article if you want to see something which I don't think should exist on WP". On another article, Battle of Opis, we've got editors trying to decide which is the best translation also (both articles related perhaps by nationalism). That particular argument was stopped by an Admin protecting the 'wrong version' after editors 4 times removed all sourced text, it's now an illiterate stub. Anyway, it would be nice if someone uninvolved could explain to at least the Persian Revolt editor that what he's doing is wrong. I've tried many times. Thanks. Doug Weller (talk) 05:42, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Note that much of the current text of this article appears to be a straight copy from the following book: , which raises copyright concerns. The book is, as far as I can tell, a facsimile edition of a 19th-century work (with a 2002 copyright asserted). Given the age of the original work, there may be some wiggle room, but basically, it's not how this encyclopedia should be written. Jayen466 14:23, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Bishōnen

Can someone knowledgeable in Japanese culture have a look a this article? To me it seems choke-full of unsourced claims bordering OR. VG ☎ 20:39, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I've added some sourcing, I need to work on this article some more. For such an important concept, it's remarkably light on detail. -- Logical Premise 20:37, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Cyberformance

This article, currently proposed for deletion, seems to have a list of events retroactively declared "cyberformances" with no citations to support this view. The whole article smells pretty OR. VG ☎ 23:25, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Samples

If a song samples another song, the sampled song is usually credited in the album's sleeve notes. But let's say an album which samples other songs doesn't credit the sampled tracks in the sleeve notes. For example, let's say the samples listed at Enter the Wu-Tang (36 Chambers)#Track listing isn't credited in the sleeve notes. Would it be OR to use the song itself as a reference for what song was sampled? Spellcast (talk) 04:06, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I would say, stay away from it. One reason is, suppose you think song A sounds like it's sampling song B. But song B is really a remake of an older or less famous song C, and A is really sampling from C. Remember that not all sampling is obvious; it can range from a record that gets rapped along with, to a half-second snippet that is played like an instrument. Another reason is some people consider "sampling" to be pejorative, and you'd be running into BLP issues in an article about a musician. I'd say, see if you can get something published somewhere that says who sampled who. Squidfryerchef (talk) 23:33, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

WP:OR/WP:SYN Diagrams at Subprime mortgage crisis

Diagrams:

• Image:Subprime_diagram.png
• Image:Financial_Leverage_Profit_Engine.png

The first has been criticized and proposed to be deleted at least twice here and here. The other is new and has just been criticized to be deleted, thus I decided it was time to bring this here.

The author of both images keeps defending it as editors' consensus and reverting deletions. Here it was opined this could only be done through page deletion, but that seems a bit extreme. Any comment, advice on what to do?? Carol Moore 17:39, 26 September 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc

Are there any facts in the diagram that are neither "general knowledge" nor backed up by cited text in the article? The editors' choices on how to organize the table aren't what I would call original research. Squidfryerchef (talk) 02:18, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

There actually citations on the images pages Image:Subprime_diagram.png. VG ☎ 03:13, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

The real problem is that Image:Subprime_diagram.png is not really informative. So, I can't even venture a guess if there's anything ORish in there or not... In case I'm just dense, I've asked for help at WP:Economics. The Image:Financial_Leverage_Profit_Engine.png makes enough common-sense that it's probably not OR, but there's a problem with the large amount of caption text that's part of the image: it's not editable, so it's a form of WP:OWN, against the spirit of the wiki. Also, making the caption editable would allow citations to be added. VG ☎ 03:13, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I think both diagrams represent OR. Image:Financial Leverage Profit Engine.png doesn't concern me much from an OR perspective, but has a bigger problem in that the text in it should be in an article, not in the image itself.

Image:Subprime diagram.png, however, looks much more like original research. (It also suffers from a serious lack of clarity, but that's a separate issue.) And yes, there are references - but so what? An essay with OR also has citations. It is very difficult to work out how those sources have been translated into the diagram; only the Wall Street Journal article relates in any vague way to the diagram's intent; the others quite simply do not present facts as the diagram does - they are timelines of events, whereas the diagram is not. The diagram, while intriguing, is plain-out original research. El T (talk) 09:46, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

We have customarily permitted OR in diagrams, as long as the diagrams accurately reflect the facts presented in the article. That has to be decided by consensus of editors on an article-by-article and diagram-by-diagram basis. These particular diagrams may have problems - they may be unclear, or include too much text that should be in the article instead. But original research, per se, is not an issue with images. — Carl (CBM · talk) 11:59, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

What evidence do you have there is such a "custom." I think we'd need to see it in WP:policy and guidelines.

There is a big WP:OWN problem with the whole article that these WP:OR diagrams just exacerbate, as if freezing the current POV structure of the article in place. The talk page (and archives) show a number of people have complained about these issues, but none have been committed enough to stick it through debating with the dominant editor.

Right now I'm working on minor issues like this, plus a couple shorter related articles which need to be wikified which will be good back up for changes I will argue are needed to make the article more accurate and less WP:POV. In the meantime making sure WP:OR diagrams are not allowed to stand permits more flexibility for other editors who might be lead to believe their changes are not acceptable because they don't fit in with the diagram. Carol Moore 14:15, 27 September 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc

I think both are original work. The second image is not need since Image:Borrowing Under a Securitization Structure.gif provides a NPOV public domain image of the cash flow and relationships of mortgage lending. There is no need for OR image to show that. Halgin (talk) 15:34, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Re Carol: essentially every self-made diagram and every self-taken photograph is original research; the fact is that we permit these diagrams and images on thousands of articles. If the diagrams you're worried about have problems, are inaccurate, are confusing, etc. then that's a reasonable argument to make on the talk page. But the mere fact that the diagram was not copied from another source is not a problem. Your post above seems to be mentioning lots of issues - WP:OWN, WP:NPOV,etc. I am just speaking to one issue, which is that we do permit original diagrams, so the mere fact that a diagram has not been published elsewhere is not a problem. If the diagram is actually flawed, that's a different matter, but it isn't an OR issue. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:18, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

To quote the policy: "This is welcomed because images generally do not propose unpublished ideas or arguments, the core reason behind the NOR policy" (emphasis in original). The diagram in question does propose unpublished ideas or arguments, as it is seeking to surmise related events in a new, novel way that is not supported by the cited references. Of course, if anyone can explain how to get from the references to the diagram without original research/postulation, then I'm very happy to retract - but of now, I just don't see it. El T (talk) 17:26, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if this argument is continuing, but it'd be terrible to take out these diagrams. Looking at Image:Financial_Leverage_Profit_Engine.png explained the current mess quickly and well. It doesn't have opinions or theories - it's just an explanation of the system. Rip this out, and the article suffers. --JaGa 05:55, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

To come back to this, noticing that Image:Financial_Leverage_Profit_Engine.png is back after being deleted. I see different views above on policy, but no actual links to policy, so I'm still confused. Is there a clear policy somewhere? I'm recommending Misplaced Pages:Image_use_policy put one in under user-created images. Carol Moore 23:24, 2 October 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc

Same-sex marriage

A user claims that it is not a "claim" but scientific fact that children need to be reared by a mother and a father; this user also adds citations to articles that make these claims in general, with no specific reference to same-sex marriage in order to illustrate the argument against same sex marriage. I think this raises clear NOR and NPOV concerns. Edit dif and talk page and talk page. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:13, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

It's a problem with WP:RELEVANCE if not NOR. I'm generally in favor of a permissive "directly related" rule, but this is a case where the disputed citations don't have anything to do with the article. There's lots of articles about the benefits of both parents raising the children, but most of those were constrasting it with single motherhood by divorce or illegitimacy, and gay marriage wasn't even on their radar. Squidfryerchef (talk) 02:27, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Agree with the above and also that the article needs a more rigorous approach to sourcing. At the moment it is essayish and seems to be trying to cover every possible argument for or against. Count the number of "some opponents argue..." in there. There are a few academic books and papers cited and more could probably be drawn from them. Op-eds in the major press are a reasonable source for the range of opinions on the matter. But no web-only advocacy sites unless the authors are well known in their own right. Itsmejudith (talk) 07:08, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

This is pretty blatant POV pushing. The new sources he added to "directly relate" are all hyper-religious websites. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:40, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Someguy1221 has commented on the article talk page. I ask Squidfryerchef and Itsmejudith to do the same - you both make constructive points. But this is an ongoing issue (see the discussion dated today, in three or four different sections on the talk page) and I think we need more people to participate in the discussion. I've expressed my own views on the talk page but the discussion needs other views - please. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:04, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Indo-Aryan loanwords in Tamil

I am developing this article and I use an authoritative and comprehensive published lexicon to cite the existence of borrowed words in Tamil language

Some people who dont accept the lexicon's authority are threatening (based on their original research) to delete my work and have extensively tagged my article with "citation necessary" tags. Kindly help. ­ Kris (talk) 18:48, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Luzon Empire and Ancient Tondo

I would like to solicit advice or perhaps action regarding Luzon Empire, which cites a number of sources in Chinese (such that I can't get at the actual contents of the articles). It suggests that a Lesser Song empire was founded on the island of Luzon in the Philippines by the last remaining remnants of the Southern Song empire. To my knowledge this is not supported by the orthodox histories of either China or the Philippines, and even if it constitutes a new theory, the article was written in a way that does not indicate that this is theory. It presents the chinese establishment of a "Luzon Empire" as if it were a fact. There is no archeological or genetic evidence to support this, and in fact the archeological data indicates the use of Sanskrit rather than Chinese during that time in Philippine history. I believe the article, and the very term "Luzon Empire" as used here (it's a term that has been used loosely elsewhere, but never in reference to a Chinese-founded empire) constitutes original research. Upon seeing this article, I created another article, Ancient Tondo, which uses existing orthodox sources to describe the same political entity. I then labeled Luzon Empire as a potential hoax and left it at that. However, I started noticing that other articles were being edited to link to Luzon Empire, and I'm afraid unless the OR-ness of that article is proven, this rewriting of Philippine pre-colonial history will continue. I need help. Thanks. Alternativity (talk) 06:51, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I can read Chinese, I'll take a look at it. ON the surface, it looks very fishy. -- Logical Premise 13:41, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, for fuck's sake, this looks like a badly translated mess. I'm going to have to visit the library. This may take a while. We're talking about two flavors of Chinese, plus classical, plus both Portuguese and Spanish. Lovely. I think the basic crux of what's being gotten at is that there are two interpretations , and a touch of OR is involved in both. Most historians focused on the copperplate, and a merge may be needed, but you'd have to be able to nuance some very old books to figure out the truth. After I visit the library and have some time to compare sourcing I'll be able to give more definitive answers. -- Logical Premise 13:52, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

(Copied from my talk page) IMO, the whole claim of Chinese origination is based on the fact that the same character that is the name of the Song Dynasty was used several hundred years later to phonetically transcribe the name Luzon into Chinese characters . As you probably know, 呂 originally meant backbone, but has fallen into disuse. The two characters together are meaningless, and are quite obviously used as a transliteration to record the sound 'Luzon'. I think some good faith effort should be made to locate the 'Pangilinan, et al' article that purports to translate 東西洋考 and claims to find within a claim for Chinese origination of the Luzon empire. If the article cannot be found, the claim should be deleted. The book 東西洋考 (lit. East West Oceans Investigations) was written in the Ming Dynasty to record the trade relations with foreign countries. AFAIK, it doesn't have anything about 呂宋 being founded by 宋 dynasty refugees. My wife can read classical Chinese fluently, but I'm not about to ask her to read the whole book to find this purported claim. If a specific page in the book can be pointed to, I can ask my wife to check it. I'm of the opinion that the claim should be deleted as OR. If someone wants to defend the rather extraordinary claim made on the page, I think they bear the responsibility to provide the evidence. LK (talk) 08:43, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikinews being used as a source for UFO sightings

Apparently, some of the UFO-enthusiasts who have been stymied by the original research rule have gone over to WikiNews and begun "reporting" on UFO sightings. Then they come back here and add their sighting to List of UFO sightings with a citation to Wikinews. I think this is very smelly. Does anyone else? How should I handle the removal of Wikinews-cited UFO sightings. Also, can someone alert Wikinews people that they are being used in this way?

(Cross posted to WP:RSN.)

ScienceApologist (talk) 13:11, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

If I understand correctly, Wikis are not supposed to be used as sources. So, why not just remove the Wikinews items? Handling shouldn't be a problem if you argument against the material is correct, as it appears to be. Chedorlaomer (talk) 01:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

The relevant guideline would seem to be WP:SPS, though really it says that other Misplaced Pages pages aren't valid, it doesn't specifically say Wikinews. However, I'm sure the spirit of that guideline would include Wikinews. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 07:03, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, some very absurd sightings with "citation needed" should be removed as well. Chedorlaomer (talk) 01:59, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikinews should definitely NOT be cited in Misplaced Pages. Blueboar (talk) 13:59, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Mental health promotion

I've tagged this article, currently at AfD, as original research because most of the text beyond the definition seems original research to me. Even if it cites sources, it does so to push a point beyond the intent of the sources (based on their titles). Someone more knowledgeable should take a look. VG ☎ 23:57, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Christian Zionism in the United Kingdom

Purports to be a stub. So I am inclined to be open-minded. But much of it reads like NOR to me. I'd appreciate it if others would help identify and tak any OR or remove it. Slrubenstein | Talk 01:07, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Wow, that article's all over the place. Possible candidate for AFD or redirect to main article. Better way to make an article like this is to write a UK paragraph in the main Christian Zionism article and break it out once it's long enough. Squidfryerchef (talk) 02:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Akbar the Great

I have disputed with one or two editors about whether or not it is appropriate to include a comparison between a dress code under Akbar the Great and Nazi treatment of the Jews. Specifically, "During Akbar's reign Hindus in Lahore were forced to wear patches of different colours on their shoulders or sleeves so that they could be identified. Such practice was also employed by Nazis where they forced Jews to wear yellow patches for easy targeting." The first sentence I have not contested, but the last sentence refers to this source, which does not mention Akbar.

I believe that the Nazi comparison commits original research on a number of points, notably that "you must cite reliable sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented." I've explained my position to the two users I disputed with: Azithmus and More random musing. In general the article seems to have problems of this sort directed towards presenting a view of Akbar much more negative than mainstream accounts. I'm not sure how this board works, but I'll notify the two opposing users and wait for some opinions here. Chedorlaomer (talk) 18:44, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

OR or not, it doesn't belong there. Nazism, which came hundreds of years later, doesn't have anything to do with the article. What the editors can do is create a "see also" or a wikilink from "patches" to our Badge of shame article, which is a general article about the phenomenon. Squidfryerchef (talk) 02:33, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Badge of shame may be a problematic article since it assembles some very different phenomena from different places and times. Link to Yellow badge in preference. Sourced information on practices under Akbar - I mean sourced from good quality academic history texts - could be added to that article. Itsmejudith (talk) 08:41, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that even the badge articles belong in the See also, since sources generally do not make the connection. In some Muslim societies these sorts of distinctions were enforced not so much to humiliate or punish the non-believers but rather to maintain Muslim ritual purity (which could be affected by contact with infidels according to some systems). It was not like some 'dunce cap' for not accepting Islam. Now I don't know how distinct that is from the other badge cases, but either way, we probably shouldn't suggest a connection unless an authority does so first. Chedorlaomer (talk) 00:07, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

An editor's own connection of two unrelated issues under one roof is definitely OR. When sources don't make a connection, an article shouldn't either.

The formalities aside, physical identification of the "other" appears in just about every civilization, but that doesn't mean that they are (or should be) all connected.

There even isn't anything obviously nasty in the sentence that the Judenstern connection was coatracked on to: "During Akbar's reign Hindus in Lahore were forced to wear patches of different colours on their shoulders or sleeves so that they could be identified." This isn't any obvious reference to a badge of shame. The source might merely be saying something innocuous like "Akbar had Hindu troops from Lahore who wore regimental colors on their shoulders and sleeves."

With respect to linking to the xyz badge article as see alsos: Since a perfect article would be perfectly comprehensive, it is (IMO) useful to think of "see also"s as a temporary parking place for links that -- in an perfect article -- would somehow be integrated into the article proper (and so vanish from the see alsos).

Under those conditions (and assuming that Jungian notions of a collective subconscious are not resuscitated), there isn't much of a chance that a reference to the badge articles would make sense in the Akbar article. -- Fullstop (talk) 07:15, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Now some IP user put it back in. I've undone it, of course, but how long do I have to play these games with mysterious IP users? This isn't the only of this kind of dispute I've encountered so far. After dealing with the remarkable incomprehension of the very straightforward argument against the original research with the first user, some other concerned IP or single use account shows up. It seems a waste of time to treat them all with a full explanation as if they haven't been following the dispute. I think that they are just trying to use persistence and shifting identities to eventually push the original research back into the articles. Chedorlaomer (talk) 04:55, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

If you suspect that the IP is a sock puppet, report it at Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser. Blueboar (talk) 14:10, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Stock market bottom

I've gotten pretty concerned about Stock market bottom. I'm reluctant to do a drive-by tagging of this article as being chock-full of OR, especially since it seems like the content could be taken as investment advice, which can be particularly dangerous. But, the entire article is supported by little more than primary sources and almost all the content blatantly violates WP:NOTHOWTO. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 00:44, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

A lot of these metrics are notable in their own right, but unless you have a crystal ball, there's no surefire way to know when the market's hit bottom. Perhaps this article could be heavily chopped and merged into one on market metrics. Squidfryerchef (talk) 02:23, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, and while it's not the scope of this noticeboard, one could argue that the method in which the methods are described violates WP:NOTGUIDE. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 10:36, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Solar energy

Discussion again about a user-created graphic that has multiple problems. It has been discussed in two RfCs and been the subject of a mediation. It is drawn from two sources and the comparison it makes is a synthesis anyway. Plus it misunderstands one of the sources. The two quantities are not comparable. And the graphical presentation is inappropriate and misleading. The editor who created it and is insisting on its inclusion admits that he wants to use it to push a position (pro-photovoltaics) and has accused another editor of being in hock to the nuclear industry. The irony is that all of us editing are personally sympathetic to photovoltaics; the difference is that we know how to keep our personal feelings to one side and work on an informative and neutral article. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:41, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Anti-Stalinist left

I had previously tried to raise discussion on the article at an AfD. I feel that the article consists of Original Synthesis, namely that the Misplaced Pages editors create the notion that disparate political groups form a tendency, based on the notion of the common criteria of some sort criticism of Stalin. Any opinions on this? --Soman (talk) 14:21, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Seems a valid and interesting subject to me, although the article could be improved. I think it would answer your concern if there were cites to some reliable sources covering the Anti-Stalinist left as a general subject.KD Tries Again (talk) 16:34, 14 October 2008 (UTC)KD Tries Again

Exactly my point. If there is a valid ref on the subject as a whole, then my accusation of Original Synthesis would fall. But can such a ref be found? In previous debates (Afd, talk page), no such ref has appeared. Rather it can be shown that the term is used for individual groups, but no ref that connects the various groupings/individuals mentioned in the article. --Soman (talk) 17:28, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I think it's there to be found. I haven't looked at this subject in a while, but I know for sure there are books which survey, generally, the anti-Stalinist left in Britain; and I once read a terrific book on the non-Communist left groups in France. Do I have the titles at my finger-tips? No. If light dawns, I'll post on the talk page. Okay, found the French book, and it's online. KD Tries Again (talk) 18:59, 14 October 2008 (UTC) KD Tries Again

Homosexuality_and_Confucianism

Article was brought to AfD because it has no sources, so it was declared original research by the nominator. Someone knowledgeable may want to take a look, and hopefully add some sources. VG ☎ 09:22, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Magibon

I am not sure where best to post this but I will try it here. If this is wrong could someone please help advise.

I come from the article Magibon which is a stub. Currently the first line in which describes what is Magibon has turned red due a deletion of a hidden link titled internet celebrity.

I can be helped by answering the bottom question. Oh and I've also posted the question on the talk page of the article.

Question

How do we describe what Magibon is?

A: Do we describe it by stating it's an internet phenomenon as per G4TV and Salon.com

B: Or it's a Youtube Meme as per Salon.com

C: Internet celebrity.

D: Internet personality. Wikitionary. However do note that wikitionary is a wiki and that a search on dictionary.com or askoxford.com dosen't return with an answer.

Comment: I do not think internet celebrity describes it, as based on sources referred, none as far as I can understand, describes Magibon directly as an internet celebrity Salon.com;G4TV;Entrevue.fr.

Please discuss and help by giving much needed advice. Hetelllies (talk) 11:01, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

A hypothetical

Chiropractors use X-rays (some critics say "too often"). Historically, the profession is credited with much of the advances in the field of Radiology. Finding a source to confirm this, wouldn't be too difficult.

Here's a hypothetical: Let's say that there is an authoritative peer-reviewed study which states in no uncertain terms that using X-ray is dangerous. The study doesn't mention chiropractic at all, but rather uses data from dentists and medical doctors. The conclusion about the dangers of X-rays however is not limited to just the dental or medical fields. The conclusion only speaks in generalities. "Generally, the use of X-rays of any kind is dangerous." Could we use this study's conclusion in the chiropractic article in the section where we are discussing chiropractors use of X-rays? (i.e. "Chiropractors use X-rays. X-rays are dangerous.") Yes? No? Why? This is just a hypothetical in order to discuss application of WP:NOR policy. Let's not discuss the reality of X-rays safety/danger here. :-) -- Levine2112 17:35, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Option D - none of the above. The issue of the benefits/problems of X-rays should be dealt with in the X-ray article. In the Chiropractic article, there is no real reason to go into any details as to the benefits/problems of X-rays (you can simply mention that they are used, and bluelink the word "X-ray" to the X-ray article, which will inform the reader as to any benefits/problems.) Blueboar (talk) 18:22, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

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