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	Barack Obama is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
	This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 4, 2008.
Article milestones Date Process Result August 12, 2004 Featured article candidate Promoted August 18, 2004 Today's featured article Main Page January 23, 2007 Featured article review Kept July 26, 2007 Featured article review Kept April 15, 2008 Featured article review Kept September 19, 2008 Featured article review Kept November 4, 2008 Today's featured article Main Page A news item involving this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "In the news" column on November 5, 2008. Current status: Featured article

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view · edit Frequently asked questions To view the response to a question, click the link to the right of the question. Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article? A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See , , The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)? A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it? A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common? A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc? A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section? A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article? A7: Misplaced Pages's Biography of living persons policy says that "riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Misplaced Pages's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article! A8: Misplaced Pages articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy. A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Misplaced Pages, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened? A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Misplaced Pages is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article? A11: It is true that Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Misplaced Pages policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this? A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Disruption Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly? A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Misplaced Pages's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed! A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Misplaced Pages's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article. A15: That's understandable. Misplaced Pages is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted! A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior: Efforts by established single-purpose accounts to introduce such poorly-sourced content will be summarily deleted. On the second such attempt, the source in question will be immediately reported to the reliable sources noticeboard for administrative assistance. New editors who wish to engage in discussions on previously rejected content are encouraged to ensure that their sources do not violate any of Misplaced Pages's policies and sourcing guidelines. Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail? A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there.

This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations: Jose Antonio Vargas (2007-09-17). "On Misplaced Pages, Debating 2008 Hopefuls' Every Facet". The Washington Post. Alison Stewart, Rachel Martin (2008-04-03). "'Round the Clock: Obama, Clinton Wiki-Warfare". The Bryant Park Project, NPR. Brooke Gladstone, Bob Garfield (2008-04-04). "Editors in Chief". On The Media, NPR. Eve Fairbanks (2008-04-09). "Wiki Woman". The New Republic. Jesse Brown (2008-04-10). "Hillary's Wiki Defender". Search Engine, CBC Radio One. Tom Foreman (2008-04-12). "Misplaced Pages Wars". This Week..., CNN. John J. Miller (2008-04-21). "Liberal Web". National Review. Kelly Heyboer (2008-05-28). "Clinton's entry in Misplaced Pages has a watchdog". The Star-Ledger. Paul Murnane (2008-05-28). "one of two pieces aired". WCBS Newsradio 880. Noam Cohen (2008-11-09). "Updating a Reference Site on the Fly". The New York Times.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Barack Obama article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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Redundant discussions

Please skim this page first (and ideally the FAQ) before starting a new discussion on the "president elect" designation, or Obama's race/ethnicity. You'll probably find there's already a section there where you can add your comments. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 00:09, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Is there an article or section related to the Transition Team? Chadlupkes (talk) 23:10, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The "Race/ethnicity" section has (presumably by "Wikidemon", the self-styled "owner" of this page) not just been consolidated or shifted to another already existing section: it has, in effect, simply been removed. The contents are no longer available unless one presses a special link to enter the "archive". Misplaced Pages guidelines explicitly forbid tampering with other contributors' material on a Talk Page. The current treatment of the "Race/ethnicity" section (rendering none of the contributions visible on the main Talk Page, effectively "hiding" it all inside an "archive") is a violation of these guidelines.Jakob37 (talk) 03:25, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Anything that can be done to speed the loading of this talk page up, I'm all for it. It's taking forever to load, and old issues that have been discussed ad infinitum don't need to be here. It's hard enough to discuss current issues as it is. Dayewalker (talk) 03:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

In that case, there are several other "overly large" sections that could be archived. If User#1 thinks that Topic X is too long and boring, then that user may, without further ado, hide its contents inside an archive. But then User#2 thinks that Topic Y is too long and boring, so that user hides Topic Y's material inside an archive, although User#1 thinks it should stay visible. Is that how it's going to work?Jakob37 (talk) 05:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

In regards to the issue of African-American, mixed race, Black, designation by oneself vs. by others, etc., this talk page has spiraled completely out of control. I was rather miffed a day or two ago to find that my contributions, along with others, on the subject had, without any consultation, suddenly been stuffed into an archive, and now I am doubly miffed to see that the same subject has grown another head, even much larger than the material subjected to archiving, and yet nobody is archiving it this time -- quite UNFAIR. In any case, the more important point I would like to raise is that 95% to 99% of the contributions on these interconnected topics have no PARTICULAR connection to Obama; these issues are part of the socio-political nature of American (U.S.) life. Since there seems to be no lack of Wiki-editors who love to manipulate other people's contributions, may I suggest that all this material, instead of being archived (effectively out-of-sight, out-of-mind), be used to construct a separate article on "race attitudes in the U.S." or something to that effect (cf. my comment in "Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Barack Obama" ). The Obama article itself should contain an appropriately brief discussion of Obama's relationship to these issues, followed by a hyperlink to the (proposed) article where these issues are described/discussed in the larger context that they deserve. And the Obama Talk-Page will then hopefully return to a focus on Obama himself. The way that Obama has dealt with these issues is not so different from the way thousands or even millions of other people have done.Jakob37 (talk) 08:44, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Barack Hussein Obama JR, not II

Because only two persons in the family line have the same name, the first (his father) would be referred to as SR. and the younger as JR. Titles of 1st, 2nd, 3rd occur when there are three members having the same name, and thus far, this is not the case. His name needs to be Barack Hussein Obama Jr. Just another guy trying to be a Chemical Engineer, Nanobiotechnologist, and Mathematician (talk) 03:47, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

No, his name is Obama II, because that's the name he was given by his mother. Grsz 03:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

This is answered in the FAQ. The name on his birth certificate actually includes the II. So it's what goes on this page. --GoodDamon 03:55, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not the "name police." Going from primary sources rather than published sources is called original research. If Obama calls himself "Jr." and if reliable sources call him "Jr.," and if he should logically be called "Jr.,"then we should follow along and call him "Jr." rather than "II." Google News Search has 116 hits for "Barack Hussein Obama Jr." and only 7 hits for "Barack Hussein Obama II," including 3 for the same text in the same paper. Papers using "Jr." include Miami Herald, St. Louis Post Dispatch, Washington Post, Newsday, Forbes, BBC News and Globe and Mail. Birth certificates commonly have spelling variants, typos, or inconsistencies from the parental intention like "II" instead of "Jr." "II" would be correct if the person were not the son of the person he was named for. My own mother's birth certificate had a spelling of her first name that varied from what she used all her life, on legal documents. Edison (talk) 04:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm. You make some very good points. Does anyone know what form Obama himself uses? If he uses Jr. and the majority of reliable sources use Jr., then this might be worth revisiting. --GoodDamon 04:44, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

If you use a better search term: Barack Obama II vs Barack Obama Jr, it's a big swing the other direction. Grsz 04:51, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Ah. Well, that seems to settle it pretty thoroughly. --GoodDamon 04:56, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

But neither of those names are candidates for his "full name."Anyway, I did not do Google hits count. I looked at "Google news archive" which has more reliable sources and fewer questionable sources. There , "Barack Obama Jr." gets 38 sources using the term and "Barack Obama II" only gets 1 source, so "Jr." still wins as the appropriate term to use in Misplaced Pages. (Why isn't anyone arguing for "Barry Sotero?" Edison (talk) 05:01, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps because "Barack Hussein Obama II" is how is name is listed on the Certificate of Live Birth that his campaign made public a ways back? When we're talking about am infobox field called, y'know, "birth name", then that kinda trumps this googling for "Jr" stuff. Tarc (talk) 05:04, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedians who know nothing about Jr./Sr. and I/II/III/IV should refrain from posting changes. Miss Manners explains why 'Jr.' is incorrect in this case. 'II' is also wrong, but it's on his birth certificate so we may as well leave it as is. Flatterworld (talk) 07:19, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Miss Manners in the book cited does not require that it be "II" rather than "Jr." In U.S. usage, the son of a man who is given the same full name would be "Jr. His son with the same full name would be "III." The Jr. or III would remain in the name even if the older one died. The convention of rotating the suffix so that a "Jr." becomes a "Sr." if his father of the same name dies and his son with the same name survives is not a naming convention which applies. See Martin Luther King III who remains that even though Martin Luther King, Sr. and Martin Luther King, Jr. are dead. See . As for "legal name," the U.S. Supreme Court , (said in 1830 that suffixes such as "Junior" or "Senior" are not legally part of the name, but are merely descriptive. A law dictionary agreed that such terms of seniority are "ordinarily mere matter of description, and no part of a person's legal name. We should follow the usage Obama has preferred in documents where he filled in his full name, and the usage of reliable sources. Other than the birth certificate, how has he entered his full name on documents? Edison (talk) 22:39, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

This again? It's his full formal name, BHOBII. Not a matter for secondary sourcing - in this case the primary source is the one to go with. This is a specific MOS issue, not the general case about reliable sourcing.Wikidemon (talk) 07:32, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Great original research. As soon as you can provide reliable secondary sources where the predominant usage is "II" we can switch from "Jr." to "II." This is just like those wanting to call him the "presumptive president-elect" because in their hearts they know they are right, national newspapers notwithstanding. Edison (talk) 01:22, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

What nonsense. It is the name on his birth certificate left|thumb|150px|Obama's birth certificate Regardless of new reportage, it does not trump the original source reference of his birth certificate.Lestatdelc (talk)

I don't support changing it to Jr. Using "II" appears to be correct per the MOS. It's not a question of one thing trumping another. The pertinent question there is his legal birth name, not predominant usage. If this were a matter subject to legitimate dispute we could look to secondary sources regarding his birth name, but I don't think that is under any real question. If we asked what he calls himself or what other people call him, that would be a different matter. Wikidemon (talk) 01:49, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, if a birth certificate does not trump newspaper reports as a reliable source then the encyclopedic credibility of this entire project is flawed. Mfield (talk) 01:51, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

For the record, how is the birth certificate OR? It has come to us from media outlets and from factcheck.org. If a primary source document is published in a secondary source, it is published in a secondary source, which makes it not OR, right? -Rrius (talk) 22:48, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

For the field that is called "birth name", and for the lead of the article where the full name is usually given, the only document that really matters is the "certificate of live birth". This has really been much ado about nothing. Tarc (talk) 23:24, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

People are placing far too much emphasis on what a birth certificate says . "Straight Dope" notes that Olympic skier Picabo Street was "Baby Girl Street" due to a blank space left on her birth certificate, until a name was chosen. Many people left the hospital as "Baby boy Smith" or equivalent. Straight Dope says that anyone has the common law right to adopt whatever name they wish, without a formal court proceeding, as long as it is not an attempt to defraud someone. I return to the question: What suffix, if any, has Obama used on official documents? Edison (talk) 07:43, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Your question, as well as your comparisons, have no relevance whatsoever to the discussion at hand. Whatever may have been initially on Street's or any other "Baby Boy/Girl..." certificate was later amended when a name was chosen. Not so with Obama, who was, and remains, Barack Hussein Obama II". Unless anyone else has something relevant to add, I'd say this section can close up. Tarc (talk) 14:06, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Oozing "firsts"

We seem to be growing more and more rather arbitrary "firsts" for Obama. First AA prez-elect, yeah obviously widely reported and culturally significant. Then we get "first born outside continental US". That seems pretty much like a WTF to me... the contiguity of 48 of the states is not exactly a biographical fact, and it just pushes funny "baseball stats". Then first from Illinois, but not really first, just first "since Lincoln". And not "youngest", but "fifth youngest" or whatever. Now latest is "first who lived in Chicago at the time of his election"... presumably not the only one who ever lived in Chicago, just trying to find some trivia someone might chatter about.

What's next? First basketball-playing left-handed president? First prez with two daughter under 15 at time of election, but no sons? (I have no idea if that's true, could be though) First prez with Mercury ascendent in his rising sign? (whatever that means, there must be some astrological trivia that is true)?! Seventh tallest president?!

Can we just kill this nonsense before it gets worse?! LotLE×talk 20:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Lol. I'm with you on this. Well said. Dr.K. (talk) 21:12, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I would personally prefer there were NO 'firsts' in the lede. AA is in his Presidential section, and that's where it belongs, imo. It's important, certainly, but I think we're giving it undue weight at this point by including it in the lede. At least I would hope his presidency will be known for more than this, yet we're implying this is the most notable thing. It just seems to be trivializing his presidency in advance. Flatterworld (talk) 23:09, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

However trivial, "First born outside continental US" should be included in addition to AA - this is a rather significant FIRST - as all previous presidents have been white AND mainland-born. The article should aim to be complete, shouldn't it?

Yes, but should that be in the lead of the article? That's the question. Frankly, I don't think it needs to be in the lead. --GoodDamon 00:19, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Forget that. Obama is the 1st Columbia College graduate to become president. --Evb-wiki (talk) 00:32, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

The fact that he is the first AA President will be in the lead in any and all bios about BO from now until the end of time, no matter what he does or does not accomplish as Prez or afterwards. That is a historically significant fact, worthy of being in the lead section here. The rest of the stuff discussed in this section is trivial nonsense.--Fizbin (talk) 00:36, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

There's considerable debate about whether or not Chester A. Arthur may have actually been born in Canada, so the "continental US" thing may be wrong anyway. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:37, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I knew something like that would turn up eventually. Canadian eh? Dr.K. (talk) 02:11, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I have been griping about this very issue for quite a while. I won't repeat myself so I'll just gripe here again. Gripe, gripe, gripe. Yes, let's stick to what's important and not make the article a collection of "fun facts". Wikidemon (talk) 07:04, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

At least there is no trivia (or Barack in popular culture) section in the article. Yet. Dr.K. (talk) 07:36, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Obama is not the first person to win the popular vote to have black ancestry. Five presidents had black ancestry...Lincoln, Jefferson, Jackson, Coolidge, and Harding. Obama is just one other to have partial black ancestry. He is also the first elected that the evidence says is not a natural born U.S. citizen. The evidence points to him still being an Indonesian citizen. Where is you documentation of his birthplace? So far, there is no known documentation to back this up. He and his half sister have been quoted as saying he was born in two different hospitals. Where do you get your information? If you are writing an article, you should include all information about the subject. Some information in the current article is false or misleading and has no documentation to back it up. mystynight

Ha ha ha. This is hilarious! I thought Aunt Sarah had witnessed him being born in Kenya. Where are all of these reliable sources? Maybe he appeals to so many people because he was born in so many places. --Evb-wiki (talk) 15:18, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

In what world does a birth certificate not count as documentation of someone's birthplace? 98.240.184.6 (talk) 08:42, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

(Also, if you want to be pedantic about it every President -- every person for that matter -- has black/African ancestry.) 98.240.184.6 (talk) 08:44, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

To the poster writing about a birth certificate...there has been no birth certificate released, only a forged image on a few websites. Images on websites without backup for them cannot be used as documentation. There are too many questions about Obama's origins to make blatant statements like there are in this article. mystynight —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mystynight (talk • contribs) 20:55, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

There is no question at all about Obama's citizenship. You're parroting that conservapedia nonsense. Baseball Bugs 21:04, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

He's Multi-Racial.

Not to be rude or anything, but Obama is Mulatto if anything. You editors are misleading the people who read this. Thanks in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.188.108.125 (talk) 21:17, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

We are not misleading anyone. We report what reliable sources say of Obama. If anyone is guilty of misleading our readership, it's those who write the newspapers etc. I suggest that you direct your complaints to their editors. If and when they change how they describe Obama, we will report that. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 21:29, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

With all due deference to WP:OR: if WP is not a newspaper, as WPns are fond of proclaiming, surely it's more than just a digest of newspaper reports? Mixed race, its perception and nomenclature etc. are all complex subjects -- as the IP's comment shows. — Writegeist (talk) 01:05, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

All true... which is why this article goes into detail concerning Obama's ethnic background. It's already there, just not in the lead of the article. --GoodDamon 02:04, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Yebbut, the first sentence of the lead (apologies to the champions of "lede") refers to him as an African American. Isn't that the IP's point? That "African American" is not strictly accurate? And that as an encyclopedia we should do better? Or are mixed-race Americans always labelled by the ethnic origin of the darker-complexioned parent? Just asking. Would or would it not be pc to describe him as the first non-white president-elect? — Writegeist (talk) 07:26, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Obama identifies himself as black. So it's not Misplaced Pages or the newspapers that have arbitrarily chosen the ethnicity of the "darker-complexioned parent." There are many Italian Americans, Irish Americans, etc., that are half, or even three-quarters something else, but who choose to identify themselves that way. I think people of mixed descent have the privilege to do that without it being questioned. 67.150.245.59 (talk) 10:48, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Are the terms Black and African-American synonymous with each other? (78.150.77.147 (talk) 11:25, 21 November 2008 (UTC))

I didn't mean to draw any kind of distinction between the two words. When used in reference to Americans, I think they have the same meaning. But my guess is that the choice of one or the other often depends on extralinguistic factors. I prefer "African American" here. 67.150.245.59 (talk) 13:25, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I think this IP's Italian- and Irish-Americans are irrelevant to the question of the accuracy of WP's indication of Obama's racial identity. For all that some "Italian Americans" and "Irish-Americans" who are, in fact, neither predominantly Italian nor Irish may choose to romanticize their racial identities for whatever reason, this should not be taken as a precedent to legitimize our misrepresenting the racial identity of a major political figure in his encyclopedia entry. Neither, if Barack Obama chooses to describe himself as "African American", is this a reason to perpetuate the erroneous description in his BLP if it is, indeed, erroneous. It is clear that he is no more authentically "African American" than an American whose mother, say, is Italian and father Chinese is "Italian American." Should we knowingly lie in support of Obama's chosen form of words regardless of their accuracy? I think not. I think we should look for an accurate and neutral form of words. To my way of thinking, "the first non-white (or non-Caucasian or whatever) president-elect" appears both innocuous and factually correct. If it isn't, might there not be another form of words that attains the twin objectives? — Writegeist (talk) 01:51, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

How so? You say "It is clear that he is no more authentically 'African American' than an American whose mother, say, is Italian and father Chinese is 'Italian American.'" which is rather silly an assertion. His mother is American (caucasian) and his father is African (black) and the compound hyphenated word using both is quite accurate, both technically as well as sociologically since he is perceived as an African-American black man within society. This entire debate has spun out into absurd lengths. Barack Obama who just was elected to be the 44th President is an African-African black man. To state it otherwise is linguistic/intellectual masturbation writ large. Lestatdelc (talk) 02:01, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to know who is handing down from on high these "factually accurate" descriptions. Race/identity is a very complicated subject and definitions vary from country to country. The Irish-American comparisons are particularly apt here because of differing attitudes about who is and isn't Irish - see the article Plastic Paddy for one. The terminology used in this field is defined by a combination of usage by a) people who are identifying themselves as such; b) the same-said people identifying others as being the same as themselves; and c) wider society using (maybe even imposing) the term onto a generic description. It is not set down by rigid scientific/legal formulas. And the usage does encompass those with mixed ancestry - as I have repeatedly pointed out, Obama is as African American as many other "first African American to achieve a certain political post"s, including Hiram Rhodes Revels, P. B. S. Pinchback, Frederick Douglass and Booker T. Washington. Timrollpickering (talk) 05:47, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. The cited politicos are indeed termed African American in their WP BLPs even though they are, in fact, only partially so. The racial identity of people who are part-white and self-evidently part-black seems to be changeable according to prevalent social pressures from both within and outside the "African American" population. And the description appears to be more acceptable to Americans than to Europeans, per this extract from the WP article on African Americans:

• In the 1980s, parents of mixed-race children began to organize and lobby for the addition of a more inclusive term of racial designation that would reflect the heritage of their children. When the U.S. government proposed the addition of the category of "bi-racial" or "multiracial" in 1988, the response from the public was mostly negative. Some African American organizations, and African American leaders such as Senator Diane Watson and Representative Augustus Hawkins, were particularly vocal in their rejection of the category, fearing massive defection from the African American self-designation. This reaction is characterized as "historical irony" by Daniel (2002), seeing that the massive increase of multiracial couples and children was a direct consequence of the abolition of the anti-miscegenation laws, which was a major victory achieved by the African American civil rights movement of the 1950s to 1960s.
• In recent decades, the multicultural climate of the United States has continued to expand. Although the terms mixed-race, biracial, and multiracial are increasingly used, it remains common for those who possess any visible traits of black heritage to identify or be identified solely as blacks or African Americans. As well, it is very common in the United States for people of mixed ancestry possessing any recent black heritage to self-identify demographically as African American while acknowledging both their African-American and other cultural heritages socially. (Emphasis added.)

• For example, 55% of European Americans classify Senator Barack Obama as biracial when they are told that he has a white mother, while 66% of African Americans consider him black. Obama describes himself as black and African American, using both terms interchangeably, and is generally considered to be African American. (Emphasis added.)

Interesting figures, although it would be interesting to know how many of the 'African Americans' in this survey themselves had at least one white grandparent, and how many had an African-born grandparent. Also, where any Asian-Americans surveyed, and what about those who identify as Hispanic or Italian-American (for example)? I still feel that Obama is disrespecting his white family (who actually raised him) by identifying solely as black - the one-drop rule is gone and people are more and more aware that their ancestry may be more complex than 'white' or 'black'--MartinUK (talk) 17:02, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Frankly I am not sure whether it is correct to bow to the American socio-political pressure evident in the fact that the subjects of the BLPs cited by Pickering are described as "African American", even though the description is palpably a half-truth at best. Is WP an American or a global information resource? — Writegeist (talk) 06:28, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

However you cut it, Obama is the first American president elect of African descent. It's 100% true, not half true, partly true, or anything else, to say that by the American conception of race Obama is African-American. This is backed up by the vast majority of published sources, and his own self-description. While conceptions of race in the rest of the world are interesting, they aren't particularly germane to the historical importance of America electing its first president who is by America's conception African-American. Wikidemon (talk) 06:37, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

... oh, and please do read the FAQ, which you can expand above, regarding calling him the first African-American. This discussion gets repeated twice a day or so. Wikidemon (talk) 06:39, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I prefer African American to non-white. I think it's more relevant to say what he is than what he is not. I strongly disagree with Writegeist's assertion that "African American" is a false description of Obama. Here we are faced with a choice between several true characterizations of Obama: "African-American," "black," "of mixed race," and "non-white," of which "non-white" is the most debatable. Writing an encyclopedia article is not a mechanical exercise; choices need to be made between true statements. These choices will depend on editors' appreciation of what's most relevant. In cases of disagreement, it's also good to see what outside sources do most often. Disagreements about the appropriate emphasis to give to different facts should not devolve into one side saying that the other side is making false statements. 67.150.252.248 (talk) 09:40, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

With a term that is an American social construct it is natural to follow American usage. It is not American-centric - biographies from other countries follow the usages for race there. The former UK Member of Parliament Jonathan Sayeed is sometimes described as "Anglo-Indian" or "half-Indian" or "British Asian" but he himself doesn't use the terms and virtually never appears on lists of ethnic minority MPs. (We do, however, more widely follow British usage in that "an Asian person" is normally only applied to those with ancestry rooted in south Asia, when referring to British Asians.) Nor will you find George IV of the United Kingdom or William IV of the United Kingdom called "black" (and that term is not taboo here) even though their mother, Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, is sometimes claimed to have African ancestry - see Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz#Claims of African ancestry and her inclusion on the list of 100 Great Black Britons (and that list includes multi-racial people on it). Even if she did have African ancestry, British usage is not on a "one-drop rule". We similarly don't apply the "if your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparent was Irish then you are" formula to British biographies - once again this is in line with general British usage. And similarly we follow American usage for Americans. Timrollpickering (talk) 13:47, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Poor porphyric George the Hundred and Eleventh's wife is irrelevant here. Obviously the odd suggestion of African ancestry is insufficient for her to be called black. (And anyway the "black queen" fiction is given no credence by serious historians.) Whereas Obama's Kenyan paternity is not the subject of speculation. It's a fact.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Writegeist (talk • contribs) 21:07, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Tell that to the people who drew up the 100 Great Black Britons. But British usage of these terms is different (more notably seen with Irish descent hence fewer Plastic Paddies) which is the key point. (And what's this "hundred and eleventh" rubbish about?) Timrollpickering (talk) 10:48, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Just because it's in WP doesn't mean it's true. Come to think of it, there's a good chance that--as in the case of the Queen Charlotte calumny--it means it's "rubbish", as you might say. Which reminds me: George III. The picture The Madness of King George (it's about the monarch of the Septic Isle, not the 43rd president of the Untied States) was originally titled The Madness of George III but, according to one story, American preview audiences read it as George the Hundred and Eleventh so it had to be changed. Sorry, I thought everyone knew that. And if it's not in WP, it could be true! — Writegeist (talk) 16:46, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The urban myth always told is that Americans thought that "III" meant the film was a sequel to two they'd never seen or heard of. Not that they thought "III" meant 111! But the play never had a problem when it ran in the US and the director has confirmed that the reason was because Americans didn't automatically realise the film was about a king, but the name change was made from the start and used in all markets. (Whereas Mrs. Brown was only "Her Majesty, Mrs. Brown" in the US.) Anyway the point lost in all this is that no-one has ever claimed the royals from George IV onwards as being "black", in spite of Queen Charlotte being so, because British usage has never been on a one drop basis. Timrollpickering (talk) 17:22, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the sequel story is one -- which made it into WP and is evidently, therefore, a myth. The number story is another. (There may be more. Please note I took the trouble to say "according to one story".) Apparently the number story doesn't appear in WP. So, yup: it's probably true. I note that in support of a fixation on British usage whereby, gosh, white monarchs are not called black, the Charlotte canard is once again peddled as fact. — Writegeist (talk) 19:02, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe I should have been clearer that I meant those who do claim Charlotte as black don't claim the Royals from that point on (and as a lot of George III's descendants married one another some of the "one drop diluted" effect would be limited) when the opportunity to do so would be tempting. All this has diverted from the ultimate point that we should respect the conventions for race in each society, not try to impose different terms or use anti-"American centric" sentiment as a reason for trying to rewrite the definition of African American, which you call just a "half-truth". Timrollpickering (talk) 21:27, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

To WP's American readership the description may well have truthiness. But not to readers who—hard to believe, I know, but nevertheless this is verifiable by reliable sources—exist in fairly large quantities outside America. Hence the problem with the Americacentric form of words. Thank you for clearing up the Charlotte-line misunderstanding. — Writegeist (talk) 01:03, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

He's just as white as he is black. Get over it. Ironmagma (talk) 23:27, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Obama should be described as multi-racial black person.Pisharov (talk) 21:30, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Obama's race

Misplaced Pages is not here to promote racial equality or usher in the American form of Brazil's caste system. We are here to report things as they are. Obama is the first president to have African ancestry and thus is the first black president by the standards of Wiki. Of course this is disputed and we cover this in several or so articles. We even put in him in the category for people of mixed african-european ancestry. So please let's stop this debate because it's moot. YVNP (talk) 22:46, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

The first President (they have to be American) so how about the first Euro/African President.

--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 22:47, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

See WP:No original research and then - assuming you find reliable sources calling him Euro/African - please read our policy on undue weight. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 22:56, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

He has been called multiracial. But he is the first president to have any african ancestry with proof of that ancestry. He has white ancestry yes and therefore he is also a white president. Why is it so important to say he's mixed rather than claiming both sides? —Preceding unsigned comment added by YVNP (talk • contribs) 05:13, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

• The problem is greater than the issue of President Elect Obama...it appears that 'black or white' thinking has been programmed into North America...to label this President as the first 'black President' is partly true, but not the truth of the mater; his mother was a PHD white women who taught at a University....

--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 16:18, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the first poster. Obama is mixed race, not 100% black. If you are going to mention race, be truthful. It is misleading to do otherwise. Obama is also not the first elected to president with black ancestry. Five presidents had black ancestry...Lincoln, Jefferson, Jackson, Coolidge, and Harding. mystynight — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.55.115.24 (talk)

Unfortunately, there is no factual evidence or legitimate historical basis for such a claim. Tarc (talk) 16:58, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Harding is pretty likely, but the others are dubious at best. But I'nm sorry so many people have trouble acknowledging that Obama is half-white - and that the support of his white family (and his Indonesian stepfather to an extent) are what gained him the opportunities which allowed him to attend Harvard and become a lawyer, let alone to become President. Obama calling himself African-American was for socio-political reasons, taken while he struggled to find an identity due to the inevitable confusion caused by his background and chaotic childhood--MartinUK (talk) 22:09, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

You're making assumptions that don't pan out. Obama is not denying his white parentage to try to get ahead in life - he, like nearly all others in America who are half white and half black, considers himself African American as a matter of course because that's what he is by America's conception of race. That is not denying white ancestry at all. People can be AA and mixed race at the same time. Actually, "half white" is perhaps a bit offensive to people - it makes it sound like dog breeding, the idea that with one parent of one race and another of another race one is some kind of half and half assemblage rather than an integrated whole person (100% African American, 100% biracial). Wikidemon (talk) 22:30, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Obama self-identifying as African American: he is entitled to make that decision for whatever reasons he likes, and this is not the place to speculate about or judge them. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 22:33, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Obama may not be denying his white half, but he is downplaying it unless he needs it for propaganda reasons, as in the election campaigning. To the poster questioning the black ancestry of previous presidents, this is documented by professional genealogists. Perhaps you should look into that as I have. mystynight

Obama can call himself anything he wants, but that doesn't make it factual. He called himself whatever would get him votes. mystynight —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mystynight (talk • contribs) 21:00, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Left Handed

Barack Obama is left handed. Is that in the article? Its an interesting fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by D1291 (talk • contribs) 03:36, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

No, but it's in Handedness of Presidents of the United States. Grsz 03:44, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

It's part of A Vast Left-Handed Conspiracy. --Evb-wiki (talk) 03:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Good one, Evb. Tvoz/talk 04:16, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

It has been in and out of the article as long as I have paid attention. It seems to be on the borderline in most people's minds of whether it is worth mentioning or not. Isn't about 10-11% of the population left-handed? Most articles don't note that, it seems like trivia in a sense, but important to people for whom left-handedness is a serious issue. But guess what? Misplaced Pages has an article on the exact subject: Handedness of Presidents of the United States. So there's no chance it will ever be gone from the encyclopedia, whether it gets added here or not. Hope that helps. Wikidemon (talk) 07:02, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Why is that close bloodline connections to Obama who are past presidents, highly successful businessmen, other political figures and very famous celebrities, is considered too unimportant for Misplaced Pages to mention, while whether or not a president is left or right handed is considered important? Neurolanis (talk) 16:20, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Why? Because lots of Wikipedians are left-handed and everyone's desperately trying to find some personal connection with Obama these days. Flatterworld (talk) 21:15, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Strange, I've been told many times that Misplaced Pages is not interested in trivial facts...it's always interesting to see when Misplaced Pages's rules apply and when they don't. Neurolanis (talk) 22:42, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

We list the close bloodlines, either here or in another article, but not the speculative and far-removed relationships. Left-handedness is to some people more than a triviality. See the article, Left-handedness. Wikidemon (talk) 22:57, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

As is genealogy to others. But an article involving Obama's unusual bloodline connections was removed. You know, sometimes if the editors on Wikpedia remind me of the Borg; always agreeing with the collective decisions. Sometimes I don't know whether to laugh or jeer. Neurolanis (talk) 23:10, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Some people need to learn that just because their particular opinion on a matter gets rejected, that it doesn't mean that there's a vast conspiracy against them. Tarc (talk) 23:15, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Other people need to open their eyes what is happening before them. Neurolanis (talk) 20:42, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

President Elect

Obama is not the President Elect and should not be noted as such. This should be removed until the electors meet and Obama is elected. Calling him the president elect perpetuates ignorance about the election process in the United States.Downzero (talk) 03:29, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Please see the extensive history of discussions on this topic in the talk page archive. There is not only legal precedent for referring to the winner of the general election as the President-elect, but with very few exceptions, the news media refer to him as such. Readers who want to learn the specifics about the term can go to the wikilinked President-elect article. --GoodDamon 03:58, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Please review the discussions above (and if they're gone, the archive) for 20-30 topics on the exact same thing. There are some solid logical/legal reasons why a person may be known as the president elect after the popular election but before the electoral college - and admittedly a good counterargument. The deciding factor is that he is generally described as the President Elect by the reliable sources, so we do too. Words and terms mean what people intend them to mean, not always what they seem to mean by logical analysis or debate. Wikidemon (talk) 04:02, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

There is no logical argument for referring to Obama as the President elect. He is not, and like I said, Misplaced Pages is perpetuating ignorance of our electoral process. He is described as president elect by similarly ignorant people who have a biased viewpoint, especially since Obama himself is referring to himself as the President Elect. Obama is not only NOT the president elect as of this date, but because he resigned his senate position, he is not even a currently serving member of the U.S. Government. He is, at best, a faculty member at the University of Chicago at this time and nothing else.

This should be removed. If I had the ability to edit it, I would not only remove it, but I would continue to visit this page until the electoral college casts their vote and makes Obama the president-elect.

If this discussion isn't enough, one need only follow the link to the wikipedia article on "president-elect" and read themselves. Obama is not the president elect, and those who have the power to edit this article have the power to clarify an incorrect point for those who search the encyclopedia. This entire discussion, semantic or not, is enough for the masses to be interested in learning more about this topic and now our electoral process works.

Personally, I'm just curious where the "Office of the President Elect" is located. But either way, this information should be removed, and protecting content so that incorrect information cannot be edited goes against the open source licensing and the philosophy of this web page. Those who have done so should remove this protection immediately. This entire topic is nothing more than biased and incorrect information that fails a simple smell test for political neutrality. Downzero (talk) 08:00, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The Prez elect is recognised by this law. Quote from the act:

(c) The terms “President-elect” and “Vice-President-elect” as used in this Act shall mean such persons as are the apparent successful candidates for the office of the President and Vice President, respectively, as ascertained by the Administrator following the general elections held to determine the electors of the President and Vice-President in accordance with title 3, United States code, sections 1 and 2.

Also for more information please see this discussion, one among many. Dr.K. (talk) 08:27, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The logical reason is quite simple. America had an election for president. He won the election. He is therefore president-elect. There are some formalities and technicalities, but any other result would set off a massive constitutional crisis. Claiming that in theory the electoral college could deny him the election is a matter of counting dancing angels on pinheads. It is not going to happen. Plus the legal reasoning that others have cited. Wikidemon (talk) 08:51, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

This is not a democracy. "Edit against consensus..." is asinine. The truth shall reign over any "consensus" that is incorrect. You are attempting to make the facts fit your position rather than coming to a conclusion based on the facts.

Until the electors cast their votes, nothing has changed. The popular vote isn't even binding in most states as to how the electors choose to vote. It is the responsiblity of everyone here at wikipedia to progress a neutral truth rather than an ideological lie, no matter how well-believed or intentioned.

If you think that Misplaced Pages's policies on how to create an encyclopedia are "asinine" then perhaps this is the wrong place. The verifiability policy has served us quite well, particularly in regards to reliable sourcing. Misplaced Pages is not the place to take a stand that most authorities are wrong and we should therefore go our own way to pursue the WP:TRUTH despite overwhelming opinion to the contrary. Wikidemon (talk) 08:54, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Now that I see you are edit warring on the subject I will state this in a slightly stronger way. On Misplaced Pages or elsewhere in life, should you perceive what you think is an absolute logical truth that most otherwise intelligent, sincere, capable people dispute, you would do well to first ask yourself where they are coming from and whether you are perhaps missing something rather than jumping to conclusions and taking a stand on the assumption that they are daft.Wikidemon (talk) 09:00, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

But he is legally recognised by the US government as President elect. This is verifiable information directly from the legal system of the United States, even if we discount all the mainstream media on the planet who call him also Prez elect. Please see also WP:V. The threshold here is verifiability not truth. Dr.K. (talk) 09:01, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I have reported the user to WP:ANI for disruption. Baseball Bugs 09:02, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikidemon, Bugs thanks for the assistance. Take care. Dr.K. (talk) 09:06, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Never said wikipedia's policies were asinine. You people are the ones violating the neutrality policy by continuing this debate when you are clearly wrong. The only "overwhelming opinion" would violate the U.S. Constitution which is clearly the final arbiter of this issue.

What you are expecting me to do is give validity which does not exist to a viewpoint that is biased and constitutionally incorrect. It appears that I'm not the only person who has taken this position, either, because your own link to the discussion finds precisely the same argument to the contrary, and the same "democratic" methods to hide from the truth.

Barack Obama is legally "recognized" by the U.S. government as the President-elect for one purpose and one purpose only--to procure funding for his office at this time to ease his transition into office. The supreme law of the land, aka, the U.S. Constitution, conclusively and clearly articulates the procedure for becoming President of the United States, and Obama has not yet reached this milestone, which requires a majority vote by the electoral college.

It is undeniable that barring any extreme circumstance, on December 15, 2008, Barack Obama will receive the number of electoral votes to become President Elect of the United States. Until that day, however, using a legal definition that does not go any farther than to provide funding for an office to verify a position that is incorrect is no more valid today than it was in 1963 when that law was written. It can be argued that until these results are verified, by the Congress, that he really isn't the President-Elect even then, but the reasoning for that position is much more cloudy and arbitrary. Right now, however, without a single electoral vote, there are few laws that bind electors, and the vote could, theoretically and legally, take a very different path than that which is expected. Downzero (talk) 09:22, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Consensus and the preponderance of reliable sources define our use of the term here. Every 4 years, a few on the losing side hold out the faint hope that somehow the electors will overturn the popular vote. It won't happen. The electors are party loyalists, not random individuals. Overturning the vote would cause a major, major constitutional crisis. The article already explains the technical side of the electoral vote. Obama is the President-elect. End of story. Baseball Bugs 09:33, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality is required of each and every article on Misplaced Pages. There is little doubt as to which way the electors will vote, but if they were to vote other than that of the American people, there is absolutely no legal recourse nor "constitutional crisis." Whoever gained the most electoral votes, whether it be Barack Obama or Mickey Mouse would become President of the United States. Of course, there would be a legal battle at both state level and Federal, but it is likely that all of the cases would be dismissed. Whoever gains the most electoral votes becomes the President-elect, and few laws bind electors. If you don't like this (and I can't say that I do, personally) then you should become a political activist and petition states to change their laws. Until then, no matter how outlandish and theoretical, a counterargument clearly exists for your position and thus the logic dissolves.

Obama is not the President-elect and this is empirical. Simply read the constitution and observe what happens on December 15th if you think Obama is the current president-elect. You will see that you are no more correct then than you were now.

The electoral vote is not a technicality. It is the constitutional process by which the President of the United States is elected. Reducing the discussion on the electoral college's importance to that of a mere technicality is precisely why this ignorance must be corrected for Misplaced Pages's integrity to be protected.Downzero (talk) 09:48, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

There is no neutrality issue. The facts of the matter are fully covered in the articles. To make too big a thing of it beyond what's already covered would constitute undue weight. Obama is the President-elect. End of story. Baseball Bugs 09:52, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Does repeating that which is incorrect validate your position? You've brought forth no additional evidence to substantiate your position. It's still incorrect, no matter how many times you parrot it. It's obvious that there is a neutrality issue here. Downzero (talk) 09:58, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

This has been discussed here, at great length, since the night of the election. Which you would know, if you had read it. There is no neutrality issue. There is no issue at all. Baseball Bugs 10:00, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I did read it. Your position is still one of bias that lacks reasoning. I have opened a dispute on this issue. The truth is far more important than the position of newspapers and weblogs. Downzero (talk) 10:10, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The "truth" in wikipedia is defined by verifiable sources and consensus. Baseball Bugs 10:18, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

And represented by a neutral point of view. There exists clear evidence to meet the "verifiable" standard on both sides of this discussion. What lacks is neutrality in enforcing a position that violates the document that creates the rule of law in the United States. Without constitutionality, any law on this topic is meaningless.

This will have to be arbitrated if it comes to that. Nothing is served by having incorrect information on the wikipedia page of our next President. Downzero (talk) 10:21, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

It's not incorrect. There are no facts missing. The rules were followed. There is no issue. Baseball Bugs 10:33, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Meanwhile, what's your opinion on whether the media have it right, that Obama and Biden have to resign as Senators by noon on January 20th? Baseball Bugs 10:34, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

My opinion doesn't matter. Neither does yours. That's the entire point of this discussion. I don't have any vested interest in anything but the truth. What matters is the constitutional process and its implementation so that the American people are confident that our government is following the law. Downzero (talk) 10:38, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Yet you're arguing that your opinion should override verifiable sources and consensus about the term "President-elect". Meanwhile, what does the constitution have to say about whether the Senators have to resign? Baseball Bugs 10:41, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Wrong again. The Constitution of the United States and relevant case law ARE verifiable. You are the one claiming that my position is not verifiable, which is simple to counter as it clearly IS. This is a dispute of pragmatics vs. legal reasoning, not one of which position is articulated by the media, but rather whether something is factual when reported by media when countered by valid legal processes and sources. Absent the necessary legal reasoning, resorting to pragmatic use vs. legal fact is how your position is arrived.

I hope that a civil resolution can come whereby legal reasoning can be satisfied while still having a factual article on the subject. I'm afraid that will not be possible without a dispute involving others, and so this will continue until it can be arbitrated for future policies with respect to this issue. Downzero (talk) 10:59, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

It was already resolved. You decided to start an edit war. And you violated the 1RR probation on this article, so you're risking being blocked just for that, let alone your disruptive behavior in general. Baseball Bugs 11:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

What happens to me is irrelevant to finding proper and legally-reasoned consensus on this issue for future participants. Downzero (talk) 11:06, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

We've reasoned this through already and decided that siding with the near unanimity of the sources in calling Obama the "president-elect" is the most reasonable thing to do. Your point about technical correctness is duly noted, but does not seem apt. Wikidemon (talk) 11:10, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

This isn't an issue of technicality, but rather one regarding pragmatics vs. legal reasoning. I have opened a mediation case on this issue. Downzero (talk) 11:24, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

It appears this dispute continues because you refuse to mediate it. The current "consensus" is contrary to the Wiki's own "president-elect" page, which perhaps warrants editing if the encyclopedia is going to redefine the term to suit its purposes. Downzero (talk) 11:35, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The issue "continues" only in your mind. It was already settled, you just don't want to accept it. Baseball Bugs 11:44, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

...the mediation will surely be closed as a content dispute. You are new here. You might take some time to learn the ropes rather than pick a fight with the many experienced editors who spend so much time on this. If you are indeed a lawyer don't think you are the only one here capable of legal reasoning. We've been through this a million times already. You are doing something akin to that inevitable torts class student who yells "but how can you put a value on human life" then runs out of the room in a huff. Please back down, and have the patience to learn rather than attack. Wikidemon (talk) 11:43, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Back down? Sorry, pal, I'm all for listening to other sides of the argument, but they have failed repeatedly to provide evidence. "Show me your evidence!" is not just a legal cry, but a cornerstone in the philosophy of science as well. Consensus is dynamic and subject to new evidence.

It is unfortunate that this issue has resorted to this. The position expressed on the page is not a neutral, factual representation, but rather a verifiable, biased source based on pragmatic usage which cannot be cited as such. It would be so much easier to make a section about the dispute surrounding the term and its use about Obama than having a discussion on a few words of one paragraph.

On December 15, 2008, this issue will become moot. Obama will become the president elect and we'll have nothing to talk about.

Until then, this has been an interesting and unsatisfying exchange because the other side refuses to provide evidence that concludes either way. Downzero (talk) 12:09, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

You're wrong, it's January 6th. And you're also wrong, in that the constitution does not define the term "President-elect". However, your arguing style continues to sound just like Zsero - who also had his facts wrong. Baseball Bugs 12:17, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The constitution does, however, define a procedure for electing a President, which involves the electoral college. I don't know anything about Zsero besides what I've read, but I did observe him trying to tell you the same thing that I am--that the constitution is binding and the point at which legal scholars define the president elect is either after the electoral vote or after Congress approves the votes. Either way, neither has been satisfied as of now. As I stated before, this is nothing more than pragmatics vs. legal reasoning and fact. Downzero (talk) 12:24, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The term "President-elect", which is not defined in the constitution, is being used in a totally pragmatic way. The electoral college is not going to overturn the will of the voters. So it is perfectly appropriate to call Obama the President-elect. And that's just what the sources do. Baseball Bugs 12:29, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

An encyclopedia should not be making assertions based on speculation and publishing accordingly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Downzero (talk • contribs) 19:27, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

No, it should be based on reliable sources, and they say Obama is President-elect. Baseball Bugs 19:49, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The Constitution of the United States is the final word on anything requiring legal interpretation, not the news media. You're still wrong regardless of how you frame this. Downzero (talk) 21:06, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Except that the constitution is silent on the definition of "President-elect", so it doesn't figure into the discussion of the term "President-elect". The term is defined by common usage, and by law, to cover both the true electoral college winner and the "apparent" winner. You're creating an issue where there is none. Baseball Bugs 21:10, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The constitution is also silent on free expression, but it hasn't stopped the courts from enforcing it. The relevant case law must be consulted to find the information, which, once again, comes down on my side and not yours.

The constitution defines the "President" and how he is to be elected. Case law and the historical record has demonstrated how this happens. The Constitution need not use the phrase "president elect" to define the process. Downzero (talk) 21:12, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

No, please review WP:V and WP:RS. The final word is the secondary sources, not the Constitution. We would look to reliable sources that interpret the Constitution, not make our own attempt to interpret it (a tricky thing that constitutes original research based on primary sources). I could make a fine argument why president-elect is correct but that is beside the point. That it is correct is demonstrated by the sourcing. To claim Obama is not President-elect, when every major news organization and almost every other source says he is, you are blowing against the wind. Arguing why is not terribly pertinent. This discussion really is not going anywhere. If you don't agree with the basic premise of Misplaced Pages sourcing there isn't much to be said. Wikidemon (talk) 21:20, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

(EC)"President" and "President-elect" are two different terms. In this context, which the news media use, "President-elect" means the individual deemed to have won enough of the votes of the populations of individual states to win the necessary electors and secure the Presidency. The United States Constitution provides no definition of the term whatsoever, so it is up to popular usage to define it. There is no need to be absolutist in this, by the way. He is currently "President-elect" as defined by popular perception and the transition law. He will be "President-elect" as defined by the votes of the Electoral College come December 15th. He will be "President-elect" as defined by the ratification of those votes on January 6th. He will never be "President-elect" as defined by the Constitution, because, as I said, the Constitution is silent on the matter. --GoodDamon 21:26, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

There are at least three definitions for "president-elect" The first is the person elected by the electors from the several states and the District of Columbia. Depending on just how pedantic you want to be, that person will not be known until January 8, 2009, which is when Congress will assemble in joint session to count the votes. The second is the person apparent election winner, as certified by the GSA, for transition purposes. The final one is the person who everyone knows will be the winner of the electoral vote. That the media, and even President Bush, call Obama the "president-elect" is instructive here. -Rrius (talk) 22:35, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed for purposes - he's president-elect. This is a discussion that's going nowhere and supported by no-one. --Cameron Scott (talk) 00:36, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Zero made it clear on the Neutrality page that his issue is that Obama is not "entitled" to be called President-elect. That's a self-defining POV-push if ever I saw one. Baseball Bugs 00:39, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Really that's his problem not ours - attempts to forum-shop about this issue that has been settled in the normal way on the talk pages should be seen as disruptive. If we really wanted to do - we could provide over a thousand sources that name him as PE - that's all we need from our purposes. --Cameron Scott (talk) 00:44, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

And, similarly, I could just paste this... http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2008/11/25/despite-bells-whistles-office-president-elect-holds-authority/

Good day, folks. Downzero (talk) 02:09, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't care to participate anymore - this is an obvious issue and the discussion is not going anywhere. Let's let this go on another day or so as a courtesy if it has to but then close as rejected / no consensus. We should be more aggressive about closing repeat perennial proposals rather than letting them spin out of control. Wikidemon (talk) 02:13, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Is it not appropriate to also mention that there are pending cases in California and the US Supreme Court on if Electors may in fact vote for Barack Obama for PotUS? We will know more December 5th obviously but I was curious why this page was silent on the issues. --BenWoodruff 05:23, 26 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by BenWoodruff (talk • contribs)

Not if it's about that birth certificate nonsense. Baseball Bugs 12:50, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

http://origin.www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/08-570.htm

Yep, it's about that birth certificate nonsense, and it's already been discussed here. The page is silent on it because it's nonsense. Note the entry "Application (08A391) denied by Justice Souter". That will be the epitaph of this conspiracy theory. Baseball Bugs 15:16, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

So the discussion on the 5th is nonsense? http://origin.www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/08a407.htm This is not a conspiracy theory it is a question of law and as such is being presented to the SCOTUS. I do suppose it would be improper to include questions of constitutional law. --BenWoodruff 20:20, 26 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by BenWoodruff (talk • contribs)

Yes, it is abject nonsense. Being nonsense and being a court case are not mutually exclusive, you know. And some legal nonsense is even notable, e.g. the US vs. Satan case. But you will note that this case is not mentioned in the Misplaced Pages articles about either the United States or about Satan. This crackpot citizenship nonsense may someday rise to the level of being worth a curiosity article, but it is not worth mentioning in Obama's bio. Wikidemon (talk) 20:50, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Anyone trying to post it here is doing so merely to try to lend some "legitimacy" to it. If the Supreme Court or anyone else decides in the plaintiffs' favor, then maybe it's worth a mention. Maybe. If there would anything to it, Limbaugh would have brought it up. Baseball Bugs 22:37, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Third opinion

Hi

I've removed this from the WP:3O list; there appear to be more than 2 editors involved, and it also appears that there is a clear consensus here.

Cheers, This flag once was red_deeds 11:08, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Formating the 'Notes' section

Two questions:

1) Is there a way to have the notes section be in hidden or collapsed mode so there is not two page scrolls to get past them?
2) Would formating the notes section into 2 or 3 columns help?

Lestatdelc (talk) 06:28, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

1) Collapsed mode not allowed for notes.

2) Isn't it already in 3 columns? Sure looks that way on my screen. Tvoz/talk 03:25, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

It depends on the window width, font size, and browser. -- Rick Block (talk) 15:31, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Really? Live and learn. Tvoz/talk 21:33, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

FactCheck.org & FightTheSmears.com: Obama's dual citizenship

This information is taken from Obama's own website Fight the Smears (see bottom of the page) and the original source, which is more elaborate, namely Fact Check.
I think it should be mentioned in the article that Barack Obama had dual citizenship twice in his life, as documented on the above websites. By birth (Ius sanguinis) Obama automatically had citizenship of the United Kingdom and Colonies according to the British Nationality Act, since Kenya was still a British colony and his father therefore a UK citizen, and allegiance to the Crown and subjection under British jurisdiction was by law extended upon every child of a male UK citizen, independent of birthplace. This British citizenship of Obama was automatically augmented with US citizenship due to his birthplace on US soil (Jus soli), according to the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution and United States Code 8.1401a. After two years Kenya became independent, and Obama's British-US citizenship was automatically transformed into a Kenyan-US citizenship. The Kenyan citizenship then expired, when he was 21 years old (August 4, 1982), because Obama "neither renounced his U.S. citizenship nor swore an oath of allegiance to Kenya". I think that this is important biographical information and should be included either in the main article or the article on his early life. —85.179.138.156 (talk) 00:33, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I suggest bringing this up at Talk:Early life and career of Barack Obama. It seems too trivial and inconsequential for the main article since he never did anything with either his British or Kenyan citizenship; it's as if he never had them.--chaser - t 00:51, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

(~_^) Well, he did have them, no matter how it seems to some, but yes, I'll post it there as well. —85.179.138.156 (talk) 00:54, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Its only value is as counterbalance to the nonsense others are trying to post questioning whether he's qualified to be President based on citizenship. Obviously, he is. The other stuff is of some passing interest because it illustrates that he's been in other places besides, say, Alaska during his life. Baseball Bugs 03:23, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey.... L'Aquatique 04:49, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Or Hawaii, for that matter. 0:) Baseball Bugs 05:22, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

What is the name of the hospital in Hawaii at which Obama was born? The article contains an unverified reference to his birth at hospital in Hawaii. Where is the proof? Is Obama's birth certificate on the web? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.55.49.65 (talk) 07:56, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Is yours? Baseball Bugs 08:01, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Is mine what? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.55.49.65 (talk) 08:07, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Is your birth certificate on the web, or otherwise available for the world to see? Baseball Bugs 08:10, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

So the hospital listed in the article and purported to be Obama's place of birth cannot be verified? That is what we are discussing, right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.55.49.65 (talk) 08:16, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Can I verify your own purported place of birth by looking on the web? Baseball Bugs 08:30, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

A better question is can you prove where Obama was born?

You're raising a totally bogus issue. A much better question than your "fool's choice" question is, "All the sources say he was born in Hawaii. Do you have evidence to the contrary?" Baseball Bugs 08:37, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Please stay on topic and with what can be proven. This paragraph is about Obama's dual citizenships, which are historical facts. It's not about the unfounded allegations that he was not born in Hawaii or became an Indonesian citizen by adoption. Thank you. —85.179.143.236 (talk) 16:10, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Unverified Birth Hospital Needs Revision and Reference

This sentence needs revision; the hospital at which Obama was allegedly born has not been verified: "Barack Obama was born at the Kapi'olani Medical Center for Women & Children in Honolulu, Hawaii, to Ann Dunham, a white American from Wichita, Kansas of mainly English, Irish and smaller amounts of German descent." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.55.49.65 (talk) 08:24, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

You need to stop reading conservapedia. It will poison your mind. It's a pack of lies. There is no issue whatsoever about Obama's citizenship. Baseball Bugs 08:29, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Verification of the hospital of birth requires inspection of Obama's birth certificate. Note the Certification of Live Birth on the Fightthesmears.com website is not a birth certificate, as it does not contain this information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.55.49.65 (talk) 08:31, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

You're raising a totally bogus issue. Baseball Bugs 08:35, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

The birth location of our next President is a bogus issue? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.55.49.65 (talk) 08:39, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

If it were an issue, it would be on Limbaugh's front page. Is it? Baseball Bugs 08:44, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

If you can prove Obama's birth location, then please provide it, so his page can be corrected.

All the sources I've seen say he was born in Hawaii. If you have evidence to the contrary, either post it here, or go back to your conservapedia fantasy world. Baseball Bugs 08:50, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Obama's hospital birth location cannot verified and should be removed from the page. You seem unwilling to discuss the facts surrounding his birth and I am unable to ascertain why you are behaving in this manner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.55.49.65 (talk) 08:58, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Because there is no issue of Obama's birth or citizenship, except in the minds of the conservapedia bozos. Baseball Bugs 09:02, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

And the reliable sources say he was born in Hawaii, so your claim, that it cannot be verified, is a bogus claim. Baseball Bugs 09:03, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

And why are you unwilling to confront the fact that no reliable conservative source has seriously raised any doubts about Obama's citizenship? Baseball Bugs 09:06, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Obama's birth hospital location has not been verified for his Misplaced Pages page. To be born in Hawaii, he must have been born somewhere in particular. Specifically, where was that? We need a source for the Misplaced Pages page. Do you have a source, such as his original birth certificate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.212.7.198 (talk) 09:12, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Since you don't think the sourcing is adequate, what's stopping you from improving it? Baseball Bugs 09:17, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Good question. The purpose of the Talk page is to discuss edits before they are made. As you get more experience on Misplaced Pages, you'll discover this. Just ask someone for help if you are not sure what you should be doing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.212.7.198 (talk) 09:21, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I have plenty of experience here, so I assume you're talking to that other IP address. Baseball Bugs 09:24, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

And speaking of lecturing others about experience, when are you going to start signing your posts? Baseball Bugs 09:29, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

What is the name of the hospital in Hawaii at which Barack Obama was born? That is the question seemingly without a verifiable answer. You seem to want to discuss anything but the specific location at which Obama was born. Why? Is that what an experience Wikipedian would do? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.212.7.198 (talk) 17:02, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

An experienced wikipedian would (1) sign his posts, which you refuse to do; and (2) stop asking others to do your work for you, and start doing the work yourself, which you also refuse to do. Baseball Bugs 17:39, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

The citation states the name of the hospital. If you have evidence to the contrary, either present it here, or go away and find it. Baseball Bugs 17:42, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Reliable sources say Obama was born in Hawai'i. No reliable sources say he was born anywhere else. If you don't like it, I challenge you to go change the policy that specifies the importance of reliable sources. Otherwise, conservapedia is thada way --> Thank you, goodnight, I'm here all week, tip your waitresses, show's over folks, you don't have to go home but you can't stay here. L'Aquatique 09:35, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

*Applause* Good show. Neuro√Logic 09:39, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

"And dat's de end!" Baseball Bugs 09:42, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Awwwww and I was just popping the pop corn?! ;P Brothejr (talk) 09:48, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

All is not lost. The IP might turn up again and argue about whether the island has an apostrophe in its name. Baseball Bugs 09:50, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

The only island I've been to in that chain is Humuhumunukunukuapua'a'a'a Island. Baseball Bugs 09:54, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Bugs, you must be aware that the Humu(etc.) is not an island but a fish. Check out your collection of Andrews Sisters 78s. PhGustaf (talk) 21:31, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I knew he was old. But not that old. Dr.K. (talk) 21:35, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

For further info, see Wackiki Wabbit. Baseball Bugs 08:14, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Bugs, you shouldn't have. Now everyone knows your background and how old you are. I appreciate the gesture though. Thanks. :D Dr.K. (talk) 19:48, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) The IP is becoming annoying. GoodDay (talk) 00:17, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Baseball Bugs, Hawaii does have an apostrophe in its name, albeit in the native Hawaiian language. It is named "Mokuʻāina o Hawaiʻi." SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/Hawaii

Item next; I am a newby here and I still admit it. Frankly, I don't know how to handle HTML to save my life. And if there's a way to mess up the "idiot-proof," I'll find it. Having said that, I do need to point out that, for me personally, name-calling does not make points with me ... nor does it make a point for me. Calling somebody a 'bozo' does not seem to me to be the hallmark of a person who is comporting him/herself to the standards of what a Wikipedian (which we should all be) should. At this point, and for other people who call others names, I must ask that you please refrain. We're all adults here, or at least should be.

One of the hallmarks of maturity is to respect the opinions and beliefs of others even when they differ from your own. Sen. Al Simpson once said "Problems won't be solved without talking about them in depth and passion. Let's not make some joke of the Bill of Rights. Let's make so certain that we listen to all viewpoints, especially those with which we strongly disagree." (Emphasis mine.)

And in closing, I'm going to quote from something Mike Wiseman told me. "If it ain't fun, it ain't worth doing." And "If you're not going to adhere to all of the standards which are expected of you, I must question whether or not you should move on."

In my opinion, Wikipedians should be impartial, adult, mature, and above all unbiased (which goes right back to impartial.) This applies to both conservatives and liberals. Indeed, Misplaced Pages should have neither. We should be neutral. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it, but I don't think I am.

Comments? --Dr. Entropy (talk) 10:00, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Although it would be ideal to handle every situation with proper maturity and decorum, some of the evident frustration with conspiracy theorists is understandable. This article and talk page has suffered from a constant barrage of those holding far-flung, often bizarre beliefs - and often promoting them with a doggedness and urgency that disrupts the page and wastes a tremendous amount of time until they are finally blocked from editing or give up. Among those, the theory (promoted fairly heavily by some conservative operatives before the election) that Obama is not a natural born US citizen is one of the more persistent and ridiculous. It is demonstrably untrue. It has been thoroughly debunked, and the debunking is linked to and put in the FAQ, I believe. Yet people have been bringing this up on the talk page perhaps twice per day for the past few months, sometimes edit warring on the main article, or here when their new thread is shut down. They are either too lazy, sloppy, or inexperienced to notice that it has already been discussed to death, and many are completely unfazed and want the whole discussion repeated to their satisfaction when this is pointed out, but it generally does no good because they are immune to Misplaced Pages's notions of evidence, reliable sourcing, consensus, and so on. I'm not sure what the best approach is. Probably just closing this discussion on sight whenever it appears or, as in this case, allowing a single discussion to stand every once in a while so people get it out of their system. Misplaced Pages talk pages like this are not an open free speech forum where everyone can debate to their heart's content. They are a place for discussion reasonably aimed at improving the article. That's just not going to happen with this or any discussion about the legitimacy of Obama's birth cerficiate, citizenship, etc. Wikidemon (talk) 10:27, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I am neutral when it comes to facts, but that doesn't mean I tolerate vandalism and Misplaced Pages tagging (in the sense of graffiti taggers). Good faith is required to participate here, and anyone refusing to review the FAQ but attempting only to provoke response (particularly with unsigned posts) is not showing good faith. Our time contributing to Misplaced Pages is worth infintely more than their time trying to compromise and destroy it. I agree with Wikidemon. Once an urban legend has been thoroughly debunked, there's no reason fur us to waste time rediscussing it ad infinitum just because someone (anonymously) tries to goad us into wasting time expliaing it. Anyone who asks like a toddler should be treated like one (given a time out on the naughty step). Flatterworld (talk) 17:39, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

While I disagree with the IP user in believing that the article requires more valid sources as to Obama's birthplace as it seems to be pretty well established that it is Hawaii, I would suggests a much less abrasive, uncivil way of handling the situation Baseball Bugs. Comments like "You need to stop reading conservapedia", "You're raising a totally bogus issue", "Because there is no issue of Obama's birth or citizenship, except in the minds of the conservapedia bozos" were totally uncalled-for. The IP user has a right to address whatever concerns he may have over the article without being attacked for it. 65.31.103.28 (talk) 19:16, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed as to the manner of handling this issue. The IP is correct in arguing that we need a reliable source as to the specific hospital where Obama was born. Existing sources are sufficient as to the issue of the geographical location of his birth (Hawaii). Sorry, I missed the mention of the hospital in the WashPost article we have as a source. That should suffice. --Tkynerd (talk) 19:24, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

The IP address is asking questions that have already been answered. Hence he appears to be trolling, and is treated as such. Baseball Bugs 21:05, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

So you use a media article for a source of Obama's birthplace? No wonder Misplaced Pages is not considered a valid documentation source. You need a valid birth certificate, which you don't have since Obama will not allow anyone to see it. There is no valid documentation released that says he was born in Hawai'i. mystynight —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mystynight (talk • contribs) 21:12, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

No, we don't need a birth certificate. In fact a reliable secondary source is better. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 21:16, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Precisely. And there is no issue in any case. It's KKKonservapedia progaganda. Baseball Bugs 21:19, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

The published birth certificate is valid, according to spokesfolks for the State of Hawai'i. Please give this much abused and overworked matter a rest. PhGustaf (talk) 21:23, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

If you mean the published birth certificate on fightthesmears.com, you are mistaken. That is not a birth certificate even in the State of Hawaii, but a Certification of Live Birth, which may or may not be accepted from State to State as a birth certificate. Presenting an actual birth certificate is required to establish identity for issuance of a passport and a host of other security clearances. Obama refuses to provide such verification of his identity, presumably because he does not wish his veracity of his past statements about his questionable U.S. Citizenship to be challenged. Hence, Obama is unfit to take the oath of office because he refuses to uphold the U.S. Consitution, which must he wear that he will uphold. Of course, this last point is why this all matters to people who understand the U.S. Constitution.

If it's not a problem for Limbaugh, it's not a problem. Baseball Bugs 21:10, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't get the whole Limbaugh writing by Baseball bugs. Anyways, to the above IP address, I respectfully ask that you please remember to sign your posts by writing ( ~ ~ ~ ~ ). I think this issue is closed as per the number of editors who have disagreed with you. I do apologize, however, if you feel you feel that your concerns have went unmet, but I think you'd be better off just moving on. Cheers! :) 65.31.103.28 (talk) 21:14, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Limbaugh is as outspoken an opponent of Obama as there is. If he doesn't have an issue about the birth certificate, then there can't be anything to it. Baseball Bugs 21:17, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Can this thread be ended? Do the conspiracy kooks really deserve this much forum? This horse is glue! Move on! --Tom 22:19, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to close it. Baseball Bugs 22:35, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I marked it resolved. So this talk page will never ever ever bring up the issue of where Obama was born, correct? I am also wishing for World peace for my Xmas gift :) --Tom 22:40, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Barack Obama

Has worked as a jeweler in new jersey at the age of 23 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peoplecare414 (talk • contribs) 15:58, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Fascinating. Citation, please? Baseball Bugs 16:44, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Political positions section should be consolidated and renamed

The political positions section should be consolidated to the presidential campaign section and renamed 'Political Positions of the 2008 Presidential Campaign'. His positions is a historical fact.

His current position includes the auto industry bailout. The auto industry was not an issue at all during the campaign. There should be a newly written section of political positions as he develops positions on current and future issues. It doesn't have to include the auto bailout but this is an example of a new issue separate from the campaign.ThanksgivingDay (talk) 17:56, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

The "Political positions of ..." articles (see Category:Political positions of American politicians for all of them) are designed to cover the full length of a political figure's career. They are not tied to any particular campaign or election. Wasted Time R (talk) 18:27, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Change title?

Now that Barack Obama is Pres. Elect. of the U.S., the title of the article needs to be changed to President Elect Barack Obama. Once he is sworn in on January 20, 2008, the title needs to be changed to President Barack Obama. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pisharov (talk • contribs) 21:36, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Considering that Bush's article did not at any point use President George W. Bush as the article title (or Presidnet Elect} I don't see why it should be the case here. Conquecntly Stephen Harper's article is also not at Prime Minister Stephen Harper ect. --76.66.184.98 (talk) 04:58, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Pisharov could add redirects with those titles, both of them pointing to the Barack Obama page. Baseball Bugs 05:08, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does not use titles of elected officials in the names of articles. See Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, etc. For more information, see Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (people). —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:14, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

And the Queen's article is Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom, not Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom - the latter being a redirect, as could be done for Obama's titles. Baseball Bugs 05:18, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, yes. I didn't mean to appear to be discouraging redirects, which are always useful. As a matter of fact, President-elect Barack Obama and President Barack Obama already exist as redirects, and have pointed to Barack Obama since November 5. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:21, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Obama is not President-Elect until the Electoral College meets on December 15, 2008. Since Obama refuses to prove that he is natural born U.S. Citizen, he will most likely not be elected at that meeting. (See the three cases on the U.S. Supreme Court's docket being considered.) One can speculate about who will be verified by the Electoral College to be an eligible candidate and so then be elected the next President of the United States. McCain's natural born status will also be challenged at that time. My guess is that Joe Biden will be verified and elected U.S. President at that date. Sarah Palin would be a logical choice for the next Vice President. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.212.1.75 (talk) 21:02, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

And Dubya will leave the White House skipping, people will all live happily ever after etc... Just keep reading the conspiracy theories. Timrollpickering (talk) 21:07, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

1. G. Reginald Daniel (2002). "More Than Black?:Multiracial". Temple University Press. Retrieved 2008-09-19. p. 128f.
2. "Williams/Zogby Poll: Americans' Attitudes Changing Towards Multiracial Candidates". BBSNews.com. 2006-12-22. Retrieved 2007-09-23.
3. Shades of black By Eric Deggans. St. Petersburg Times. Published April 15, 2007
4. "Transcript excerpt: Senator Barack Obama on Sixty Minutes". CBS News. 2007=02-11. Retrieved 2008-01-29. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
5. "Breaking New Ground: African American Senators". U.S. Senate Historical Office. Retrieved 2007-07-22.

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