| Revision as of 23:25, 14 December 2005 editBostonMA (talk | contribs)7,570 editsm NPOV vs laughing stock?← Previous edit | Revision as of 23:40, 14 December 2005 edit undo172 (talk | contribs)24,875 edits →Communists in power and the free marketNext edit → | ||
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| and don't lie about your passions, you've got on your interests the Soviet Union, Russia, and George Keenan...I think thats a pattern! (Gibby 21:36, 14 December 2005 (UTC)) | and don't lie about your passions, you've got on your interests the Soviet Union, Russia, and George Keenan...I think thats a pattern! (Gibby 21:36, 14 December 2005 (UTC)) | ||
| ::I know a little about the subject, granted. I make a living from teaching-- perhaps the motive on my part for learning about the subject is ]? I don't have an ideological axe to grind. If someone on Misplaced Pages is expressing the POV that the practice of the CPC is contrary to communist theory, I can care less. I have no idea how it affects me personally; I have no idea if it is a challenge to my political views. The substance of your arguments doesn't affect me in the slighest, personally or ideologically. I just want ''this particular article'' to stay on topic. That's it. I want to accomplish this aim with as little disruption as possible, consuming as little time as possible. I'm sorry if I'm turning out to be surprisingly dull and unsophisticated; but you will have to deal with many other editors like myself, who are less passionate about the subject matter than about striving to uphold Misplaced Pages's content policies. ] 23:40, 14 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :What proof do you have of these interests, and then again, what exactly do you mean? --] 23:17, 14 December 2005 (UTC) | :What proof do you have of these interests, and then again, what exactly do you mean? --] 23:17, 14 December 2005 (UTC) | ||
Revision as of 23:40, 14 December 2005
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7
Censorship?
Again, 172, does this censorship and removal of information continue to demonstrate that one side prefers that certain information not allowed to be viewed?
(Gibby 20:47, 14 December 2005 (UTC))
- No one is interested in 'censoring' your information on China's economic policies. However, Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, which means that it is supposed to follow certain standards of relevance for including information in any given article. The information that you are interested in adding here is off-topic in the communism article, and more appropriate in articles related to economy of the People's Republic of China and Communist Party of China. Please take your comments to other articles where your concerns are more relevant. 172 20:53, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- 172, I think it was rude of you to archive a discussion page during an on-going discussion. The edit comment reads "perhaps archiving all the off-topic soapboxing will make it go away?". Please do not do this again. The discussion page is for discussion. Please respect that. (BostonMA 22:32, 14 December 2005 (UTC))
they are perfectly relevant here. You have failed to demonstrate why they are not. (Gibby 20:59, 14 December 2005 (UTC))
- This is an article on the ideology and political movement called communism, which is most notable as the purported ideology of Communist parties. The communism article is the most broad and general of literally thousdands of articles on Misplaced Pages related to (a) communist ideology (b) Communist parties (c) Communist regimes (d) discourses related to modern communist ideology. There must be clear criteria for determining what kind of information is relevant here and what kind of information is more fitting in a more specialized entry, or else this article will loose its focus and fail to serve as a helpful general entry to readers who are interested in learning only the general matters of 'who, what, when, where, why' of the subject.
- On that note, your commentary on the ideology of a particular Communist party-- asserting that the practices of CPC are "contrary to original communist theory, and even communism as it has been practiced under regimes such as Lenin, Stalin, and Mao" may be correct; but it is POV and off-topic here. Given the NPOV policy, it is not Misplaced Pages's position to evaulate the ideologies of individual political parties. Again, I urge you to take your observations to articles specifically focused on the Chinese economy and the CPC, where references with citations to commentaries dealing with the divergence of CPC ideology and practice from "original communist theory, and even communism as it has been practiced under regimes such as Lenin, Stalin, and Mao" may actually be pertinent to the subject. 172 23:22, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Communists in power and the free market
Discussion on whether or not this section should be included...
Contrary to original communist theory, and even communism as it has been practiced under regimes such as Lenin, Stalin, and Mao, the People's Republic of China; the largest country whose ruling party refers to itself as communist, runs Special Economic Zones dedicated to capitalist enterprise, free from central government control. After opening up trade to the world under Deng Xiaoping, the People's Republic of China runs some of the most economically free regions in the world, including Hong Kong, which is regarded by the Hoover Institute and the Wall Street Journal as the world's freest economy .
These Special Economic Zones have few restrictions upon businesses, industries, imports and exports, including the elimination of duties, and a free price system. Since the opening of the Free Trade Zones China has maintained a growth rate of over 8%, and originally saw growth rates around 12%. These Special Economic Zones are different than the State Capitalism, as practiced in the Soviet Union, because the SEZs allow for capitalists to build and expand their industries and private property, free from the control of the central government. SEZ's operate under market economy rather than the state capitalist top down command economy approach.
According to China.org "After opening Shenzhen and other three coastal cities in South China as special economic regions and then dozens of economic and technological development zones in the 1980s, the country introduced free trade zones in the early 1990s in 15 coast cities, including Shanghai, Guangzhou, Shenzhen and Tianjin." It might be interesting to broaden this section with examples in North Korea and Vietnam. Electionworld 09:04, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
I disagree that it is different from state capitalism. China remains state capitalist, due to political suppression of dissidents. That remains a critical distinction in any "free market" economy whatsoever. Furthermore, yes, China is a major example of a communist country espousing free market ideals, but the current article is already cluttered enough. I could see a paragraph of this being sufficient, fitting under the "Communism today" section, to elaborate on already existing material. The concept of China having a free market is not restricted to China, many so called communist countries already have market economies. Therefore, it should be oriented less on the PRC on more about free markets in communist countries in general, the full explanation being at state capitalism, citing the PRC as an example. -- Natalinasmpf 09:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC) +
I aggree, China is not the only self described communist country that is implementing market reforms, attracting foriegn investment, lower import restrictions, and encouraging foriegn development. And because multiple modern communist countries are implementing these reforms, it should be included...afterall we've already shown the evolution to lenninism, stalinism, maosim...why not this "reformism"
And yes, Nati, china's SEZs are far different than State Capitlism. China runs 2 separate economies. 1 command economy 1 market economy (in the SEZs)...market economies are NOT state capitalism as none of the supply, demand, or price information is directed by the central government. (Gibby) Because that is not an ideology, and is covered in both state capitalism and communist state. It remains state capitalism because the government still economically represses its society directly (as opposed to insidiously with plutocracy). Ultimately, it still remains state capitalism because the internal flow within the country has not been lifted, and thus remains state capitalist. -- Natalinasmpf 19:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC) +
Well opponents of free markets label them an ideology and now its mixed with communists...sounds like it clears to me. +
Is it me or are the excuses for excluding this section constantly changing? (Gibby 20:05, 14 December 2005 (UTC)) +
- No, they are not. The reasons for excluding the section are that it is off-topic, irrelevant, POV original research. Please give it a rest. Information on the economy of China can be found in economy of the People's Republic of China. Information on the CPC can be found in Communist Party of China. Please give it up here. 172 20:35, 14 December 2005 (UTC) +
It is not POV, POV has been removed.
It is not Original Research. All the data is taken from respectable published sources (REad the freaking rulebook) +
It is not off topic it follows in line with the spirit of the page which is demonstrating how communist theory and ideology has changed over time
And the simple fact that this information is briefly covered does not adequatly explain why this should not be included as several sections in this page are not only included in other pages but have their own pages as well. +
Your refusal to allow this section is simple censorship. You dont want information counter to your own beliefs to be entered into this page for fear of people learning to disagree with your position. You are an intellectual coward who cannot fight facts on its own merits and has to hide behind perverting wiki rules to see intellectual competition removed +
(Gibby 20:50, 14 December 2005 (UTC))
- You cannot be serious. I have no passionate opinions about this subject matter whatsoever. I could personally care less about the content of your section; and I don't think that any other editor has a strong ideological view on this topic, for that matter. However, I do have a strong opinion on the need to keep information in the communism article relevant to the topic, because I care about helping Wikipeidia develop along the lines of its goals. Please try to be civil-- and take your concerns to articles where they are not tangential-- such as economy of the People's Republic of China and Communist Party of China. 172 21:04, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- 172, while I think that Gibby is being uncivil, he has a point. Why exactly is this section not relevant? --Pianohacker 22:44, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- We were doing fine without it a month ago, and I have explained (in archive 7) that it's redundant. Consider this, suppose I post in the United States article, an entire section about commenting about its welfare system and how it seems ironic if compared to the American dream, how it goes against the entire system of free enterprise, blah blah blah. Now, an entire section in a country article about its welfare system is already too much. A section for the entire purpose of making an observation of welfare when compared to other American concepts is even narrower....now, this is basically what the current section proposed to this article is. This article is a pretty general article, almost like a country-article, since it spans such a wide range of information. An entire section making this narrow observation (however accurate) would be disjunct and wouldn't flow, and then we would get laughs from critics and the Register if they ever decided to use this as an example against Misplaced Pages about the sheer pettiness and narrowness of our articles. Gibby: I think we will have less trouble, or even no trouble, if this is moved to "communist state" (and merged with existing material to cut redundancy), just see what the consensus is about that. Communist state is basically a child article about Communism, just as Maoism and Leninism is. -- Natalinasmpf 22:56, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- Natalinasmpf, you raise the argument that Misplaced Pages would be a laughing stock. I note that philosophy of Misplaced Pages is to present NPOV, to be "the 💕 that anyone can edit". In my opinion, an NPOV encyclopedia has the potential to be vastly superior to existing encyclopedias which are decidedly not NPOV. Should the Misplaced Pages community take the POV that NPOV should take second place to the avoidance of ridicule? (BostonMA 23:25, 14 December 2005 (UTC))
which is perhaps why Electionwood suggested the addition of information regarding North Korean and Vietnamese reforms in this section. That only makes it more relevant than it already is (and it is relevant thanks to inclusions of lenninism maoism..etc. I dont know how many times I have to keep repeating this, but its clear you dont get it). (Gibby 21:35, 14 December 2005 (UTC))
and don't lie about your passions, you've got on your interests the Soviet Union, Russia, and George Keenan...I think thats a pattern! (Gibby 21:36, 14 December 2005 (UTC))
- I know a little about the subject, granted. I make a living from teaching-- perhaps the motive on my part for learning about the subject is rent seeking? I don't have an ideological axe to grind. If someone on Misplaced Pages is expressing the POV that the practice of the CPC is contrary to communist theory, I can care less. I have no idea how it affects me personally; I have no idea if it is a challenge to my political views. The substance of your arguments doesn't affect me in the slighest, personally or ideologically. I just want this particular article to stay on topic. That's it. I want to accomplish this aim with as little disruption as possible, consuming as little time as possible. I'm sorry if I'm turning out to be surprisingly dull and unsophisticated; but you will have to deal with many other editors like myself, who are less passionate about the subject matter than about striving to uphold Misplaced Pages's content policies. 172 23:40, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- What proof do you have of these interests, and then again, what exactly do you mean? --Pianohacker 23:17, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Suspected Original Research, "The modern world's first effort to build socialism"
The current text reads:
- "In Russia, the modern world's first effort to build socialism or communism on a large scale, following the 1917 October Revolution, led by Lenin's Bolsheviks, raised significant theoretical and practical debates on communism among Marxists themselves."
Statements which attribute actions to "the modern world" are suspect as original research. After 48 hours have elapsed, (and obviously after the article is unlocked), I will edit this sentence, unless someone provides a verifiable source for the sentence or makes a request for more time to locate such a verifiable source.
I will replace it with the following text, unless convinced that another text is superior.
- "The Russian 1917 October Revolution was the first time any party with an avowedly Marxist orientation, the Bolshevik Party, obtained state power. The assumption of state power by the Bolsheviks generated by a great deal of practical and theoretical debate within the Marxist movement."
(BostonMA 22:52, 14 December 2005 (UTC))
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