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Questioning that Ausura Augusta was the one who introduced the function shapes

The following text states thus:

"Of all the aspects of socionics study, "aspectonics", as the study of information elements is called, may be the most difficult to grasp. Although Augusta argues that every information aspect belongs to one of the eight elements, she does not submit that there cannot be further categorizations in the context of the eight. To impress upon her students that what was being spoken of were strictly intuitive abstractions, Augustinavičiūtė introduced geometric symbols for each information element. These symbols are still in use today, although other notations have been proposed. In common usage, Viktor Gulenko's system , which uses Latin symbols, is favored in Russia and other non-English speaking countries, while the two letter MBTI convention is favored in English-speaking forums."

Now, the statement here:

"Augustinavičiūtė introduced geometric symbols for each information element. These symbols are still in use today"

I challenge the accuracy of this statement. It says that Augusta was the one who first urged the acceptance of the geometric function symbols as a standard. How exactly does one really know that it was Augusta who introduced those symbols first as a standard? Since it was Bukalov and Gulenko who were the ones who refined the current system of socionics, and Bukalov apparently has been well studied into esoteric practices do you think maybe that it was really through Bukalov's urgeing that caused the socionics functions as symbol representations to become standard, especially as that he is so familiar with so many esoteric practices? Since it has been claimed by some (of a certain viewpoint) that Ausura Augusta wanted a scientific socionics, would not have Ausura Augusta herself have been opposed to any sort of standard that appears to be esoteric in any way? --Rmcnew (talk) 22:28, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Rmcnew

I have raised this point with you before, but you have done nothing to rectify the situation. You still insist on seemingly putting your own point of view into the article - why do you think it acceptable for example to say "Although it has been claimed openly (and falsely)..." - without justification.

also, "all evidence suggests that Antoni Kępiński, esoteric and cosmological understandings of the human body had a much broader influence over the development of socionics than Carl Jung, his theory and Myer-Briggs typology ever had" - all evidence...really?

and, "though it could be said that all three typology theories have a foundational basis in esoteric cosmology and alchemy." "though it could be said" - yes, but said by who? you? This is just one sentence of Rmcnew's I object to - he does this throughout his contributions to the article, and I really wish he'd learn to write to the required standard. RudieBoy (talk) 17:03, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, this is actually related to a similar problem I have noted in the above paragraph. The entire "Information metabolism" section is completely and entirely unsourced, and yet it attributes things to Ausura Augusta that are attributed to the efforts of the other founders. I would even go so far to say that the whole couple of paragraphs below are "unsubstantiated original research concerning ausura augusta that is based on no sources whatsoever." Whoever wrote the "Information Metabolism" subarticle should rewrite a significant portion of it according to viable sources, with the correct credit being given to the origination of various portions of socionics theory. And by the "information metabolism" section I am referring to the following. --Rmcnew (talk) 18:03, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I would advise for everyone to do a collaborative rewrite of both that paragraph rudieboy mentioned and also the entire section below according to viable sources (at the same time): --Rmcnew (talk) 18:13, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

"Information elements

In socionics, Jung's functions are always introverted or extroverted, and are referred to as functions of information metabolism. These functions are said to process information aspects. To understand what an information aspect is, it is necessary to understand information metabolism as Augustinavičiūtė understood it.

Our world is populated by entities of various kinds, each of which have defining characteristics and properties. The brain processes incoming data in its quest for understanding of the world: it identifies relationships between these datum and thus, categorizes them as a recognizable phenomena for easy reference. As an example, consider the case of a child who sees an apple for the first time. If they have been previously taught that the color qualia we associate with "red" is red, then will they will notice that the color of the apple is red. They have recalled the color red upon being confronted with red colors. Now imagine that the child has not yet been instructed on the color red. They simply see a different color than they have seen before. They have two options: to infer the existence of a new color, or to dismiss its lack of recognizable color by saying there is no color. Barring these, the child could also choose to assert that it is of a previously recognized color, perhaps the color nearest in hue to what they now see. Whatever the child's determination, the apple's color qualia will be remembered as a unique concept in its own right, and will be referred to whenever that specific qualia is again encountered. In essence, a "copy" of the color data has been set aside for future reference, to be recalled when faced with familiar data. These "reference copies" are what we refer to when we speak of "information", and the process of creating the copy is what Augustinavičiūtė called "information metabolism".

Augustinavičiūtė held that there were eight functions of information metabolism, each of which processed a specific kind of information. Which function is chosen to process which aspect depends on what characteristics of an entity are being observed. Socionists have identified six categories of entity characteristics:

   :::* characteristics that are internal to the entity and private to it
   * characteristics that appear only in relation to other entities (termed "external")
   * characteristics that are considered "in flux" and prone to change in the course of their consideration (called "dynamics")
   * characteristics that are considered unchanging for the duration of their consideration ("statics")
   * characteristics that are apparent when the entity is considered as a field (meaning "a relationship between objects")
   * characteristics that are apparent when the entity is considered as an object

The categories are arranged into three mutually exclusive pairs (dichotomies). You cannot, for example, observe both an entities' internal and external characteristics at once, only in alternation. The exclusivity rule yields eight permutations in total. Although the categorization is conducted outside of our awareness, a given aspect can be successfully corresponded with its element through a technique of intuitive abstraction. This abstraction, called "aspect analysis", weighs the characteristics of the aspect considered between each of the three pairs, using the intuitive meaning of the characteristics as a vise by which to identify which element the aspect is "most like". The technique allows that a person's speech be scrutinized for usage of specific aspects, and the frequency of their use of elements quantitatively gauged. This method, called "semantic analysis", has resulted in some of the most significant and persuasive discoveries in socionics.

Of all the aspects of socionics study, "aspectonics", as the study of information elements is called, may be the most difficult to grasp. Although Augusta argues that every information aspect belongs to one of the eight elements, she does not submit that there cannot be further categorizations in the context of the eight.

To impress upon her students that what was being spoken of were strictly intuitive abstractions, Augustinavičiūtė introduced geometric symbols for each information element. These symbols are still in use today, although other notations have been proposed. In common usage, Viktor Gulenko's system , which uses Latin symbols, is favored in Russia and other non-English speaking countries, while the two letter MBTI convention is favored in English-speaking forums."

"

collaborative rewrite of "information metabolism" sections and also "Criticism of socionics theory (rational skepticism)"

We need to all work together to find viable sources that can be used to rewrite all sections of these two portions of the article at the same time. I am sure that Rudieboy especially would be interested in doing some of the work to find sources for the rewrite. As it stands several paragraphs in both are completely origional research and in the most extreme cases the entire "information metabolism" section has no sources at all to justify anything that is written there, so we should all work together on this to solve this issue in a positive way. Thanks. --Rmcnew (talk) 18:30, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

There is a huge difference between the two sections - the sections composed by you are full of weasel words and blatant untruths - the use of the word "obvious" by you for example in the sentence "although obvious correlations between socionics theory, occult and esoteric philosophies derived from such groups have caused speculation that this is the case". Also, speculation by who? You are making your 'argument' sound far more persuasive than it is. For example, the sentence "It is possible that she was not even aware during her life that her theory contains esoteric and occult elements, and that she perceived her activities to be normal and scientific" is completely unnecessary - why put such a speculation? Of course it's possible, but it is pure speculation.

Even if what you say is true, as you state that this section is full of "weasel words and blatant untruths". It is hypocritical to judge that one section when there are whole other entire sections, (which could be more credible) have no source credibility whatsoever. Especially when there are sources that justify the existance of esoteric methods in socionics theory. But let me tell you something. Either Ausura Augusta knew that her theory had esoteric principles, or she did not know and considered them scientific. Or she knew that the esoteric principles were not scientific, yet wanted to make something scientific out of them. Some of you are making insistent statements that ausura augusta considered her works to be scientific, and yet what ausura augusta basically did was take esoteric based philosophies and make them into something scientific. Let me tell you what is the truth here.

- According to dmitri lytov, the socionics function elements are considered to be derived from the central nervous system. The tattwa element in Tantra Buddhism are considered to be derived from the central nervous system. The hermetic order of the golden dawn considers the tattwas to be derived from the central nervous system. Many new age movement philosophies have always used the tattwas and declared the same, that the tattwas correspond to the central nervous system. --Rmcnew (talk) 17:49, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

The central nervous system is a well-substantiated part of the body, and is as a matter of fact which is completely independent from these "tattwas". RudieBoy (talk) 19:38, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

- Official socionics researchers in both Kiev, Ukraine and Moscow, Russia have used corresponding chakra points with the socionics function elements (according to cosmological placements) to do psychological testing. Accupuncture specialists in Asia have used chakra points (according to cosmological placements) to tell where to place their needles. --Rmcnew (talk) 17:49, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean by "official"? Any "evidence" you have shown linking socionics and the use of chakra "theory" simply has no quantitative data, and certainly no substantiated link. RudieBoy (talk) 19:38, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

- Information metabolism theory as derived from both Kempimsky and Ausura Augusta are based on esoteric concepts of psychic energy, chakra placements, and cosmological comparisons to the human body. --Rmcnew (talk) 17:49, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I have seen no evidence whatsoever that Kempikski or Augusta were inspired by these "esoteric concepts". RudieBoy (talk) 19:38, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

It is entirely substantiated to say that socionics has equal standing with other esoteric based philosophies, whether you like that stated or not. Whatever happens, I do thinks some portions of what I have written can be rewritten for quality. I just have to be sure that the other editors are interested in actually neutrally stating all information, which is something I have not been totally convinced about taking the behavior of some of the editors.

It's not a question of what I like - it's a question of what can actually be substantiated. I don't believe it is - you have failed to convince me of it. The fact that you say entirely substantiated speaks volumes about your approach. RudieBoy (talk) 19:38, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

It is not a question of convinceing you, it is objectivelly representing socionics without a bias that appears to be from a "proponent of socionics", which is what you and several other editors have completely failed to do, and what I am succedding in doing. I completely expect other editors to disagree with this approach, but I will continue to do what I feel is right or necessary regardless. --Rmcnew (talk) 02:04, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

You are correct that "The fact that you say entirely substantiated speaks volumes about your approach," because what I am saying is 100% correct, and her is why:

First, off, Dmitri Lytov himself had stated that the socionics elements were associated with the central nervous system. The hermetic order of the Golden Dawn, Tantra Buddhism, and new age philosophies have stated that the tattwas are associated with the central nervous system. The socionic elements are a triangle, a square, a circle, and an L shaped crecent. The tattwas are a triangle, a square, a circle, a crescent shape, and an oval shape.

Second, chakras and their relationship to the information elements have been shown to be an intregal part of socionics theory, as well as chakras and tattwas have been an intregal part of hermetic philosophies, tantra philosophies, and new age philosophies.

Third, Bukalov has not only authored officialy hermetic and other esoteric/new age material for publishing from his official publishing house in Kiev, Ukraine, he allows esoteric methods in relationship to socionics theory to be published from his publishing house. If you are too oblivious or stubborn to note the substantiality of this fact in relationship to socionics theory, heaven and earth raining itself on you probably isn't going to change your mind on the matter.

Fourth, the sources themselves make blatant ommisions that esotericism is present in socionics theory, in various forms. It is futile to deny this. --Rmcnew (talk) 02:04, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Again, in the sentence "While the similarities between hermeticism and socionics theory are notable and apparent" - this is clearly your point of view.

No, it is not my view that "while the similarities between hermeticism and socionics theory are notable and apparent", it is a neutral truth which I will defend to the very latter. There is only one point of view, a neutral point of view and admission to these sort of things when you don't necessarily agree with the assimilation of certain information promotes neutrality, despite what you personally think should be assimilated. It would be unneutral to only present a "boxed" point of view that is purely only from a proponent of socionics, which is what many of you are unknowingly doing, and don't realize it. --Rmcnew (talk) 17:49, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

'Notable' and 'apparent' are not quantifiable words, and hence, naturally, they must be reflective of someone's point of view, even if you invented such a person. I am fed up with arguing over something which should be so obvious.RudieBoy (talk) 19:38, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

"Nevertheless, some socionists debate whether the esoteric material published through the socionics publishing house in Kiev, Ukraine is thoroughly representative of socionics as a whole. Some pro-science socionists with extreme anti-esoteric viewpoints have even denied the existence of esoteric applications altogether either currently or in the shaping of original socionics theory by Aušra Augustinavičiūtė, despite the persistent presence of socionics source material admittedly esoteric and published from official socionic publishing houses based in Kiev, Ukraine or elsewhere." - which socionists? Also, "pro-science socionists with extreme anti-esoteric viewpoints" is your point of view.

I am only interested in promoting a "neutral point of view", and I disagree with the other editors who think that exclusion of certain elements promotes neutrality, when the point of view is significant enough to mention. --Rmcnew (talk) 17:49, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

"It is debated by socionists whether the origional founders of socionics first intended the theory to be something esoteric or scientific, though the latter tends to be argued more than the former." - which socionists? Do you consider yourself a socionist? You are the only person I know of to claim that "the origional founders of socionics first intended the theory to be something esoteric".

This sentence "You are the only person I know of to claim that "the origional founders of socionics first intended the theory to be something esoteric" is innacurate. I have never claimed this. I have claimed that esoteric methods exists in socionics theory, decending from the founders themselves, but whether or not each individual founder wanted something scientific or esoteric I think is an issue of debate, because apparently (from the source materials) some founders were looking for scientific advancements with socionics and others encouraged or tolerated esoteric advancements in socionics theory. It was both, not one or the other ... both. This is very typical of later protoscientific movements before the development of more modern scientific methods. --Rmcnew (talk) 19:16, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

The bits of the article not done by you may need better referencing (which I have addressed somewhat), but I don't believe that this part suffers from the blatant misrepresentations frequently occuring in the sections done by you. RudieBoy (talk) 23:38, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, please cite your source for the claim that "It is debated by socionists whether the origional founders of socionics first intended the theory to be something esoteric". RudieBoy (talk) 19:38, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

What you call blatant "misrepresention" is what I call the "road to a neutral point of view" and "away from the 'boxed in' view" of socionics that some of the other editors have been promoting. In fact, I believe that many of the other editors have encouraged "blatant misrepresention" with their unwillingness to the assimilation of valid socionics information that seems adjunct to the "socionics is like MBTI, Jung and not esoteric" point of view, which isn't the only point of view in socionics theory. A large faction of those practicing socionics theory do dabble in esoteric methods and mix those in with socionics. That fact should be represented in the article. Many of the esoteric methods descended directly found the founders, including ausura augusta. Did they consider those methods scientific, though they are esoteric in nature? I would say that is the case. --Rmcnew (talk) 17:49, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

As for the other article "Information Metabolism" there is absolutely nothing to substantiate the information there, while there are at the same time numerous sources that substantiate that esoteric methods of psychic energy, chakras, uages of tattwas, and hermeticism exist in socionics theory even as far back as "ausura augusta" was formulating socionics theory. Either the esoteric methods that exist in socionics theory are attributed to her or they are attributed to another founder, and which is that? It is either one of those two options. --Rmcnew (talk) 17:44, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Augusta was the sole founder of Socionics, and she made it quite clear that Jung's typology formed the foundation of her work. She does not refer to the role that "esoteric" subjects played in her modification of Jung's theory - she does however refer to empirical observations being behind the modifications. RudieBoy (talk) 19:15, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Augusta may be considered an origional founder who BUILT upon the theory of others. However, it is acurate to say that much of what you think is attributed to Ausura Augusta is not actually attributed to Ausura Augusta. Some things that are mathematically (or in other cases, esoterically) derived as a standard part of socionics theory are acutally attributed to Gulenko, Bukalov, and Reinin, even though some of these things are supposedly attributed solely to her. She did not do everything herself. As far as esotericism is concerned I have a good faith belief that the esoteric, hermetic, influence came as a result of Bukalov's and other founders work on socionics theory, and that Ausura Augusta was blindly following until she had no choice but to accept the developing mystic viewpoint. For that reason, Ausura Augusta would not have been aware that socionics theory had esoteric and occult associations until later on, in her old age, and she evidently had agreed with those associations. I agree that she probably (at least initially) intended socionics theory to be scientific, but taking her protoscientific methods (with esoteric links) her theory as it origionally came from her also fell signifigantly short of a modern scientific standard, and that should have been evident from the start (as it is completely evident now). --Rmcnew (talk) 19:31, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

She was the original founder, pure and simple. Any "esoteric" links made to Socionics after its foundation are irrelevant, as being esoteric, they are naturally unsubstantiated, and thus not worthy of merit. Hypotheses with some substatiation may be worthy of inclusion because they have been shown to have some link to the initial hypothesis, but otherwise, it is not Socionics as Augusta defined it. RudieBoy (talk) 19:56, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Let me start by stateing what I think is substantiated above:

The following: "She was the original founder, pure and simple." is substantiated.

The following statements are unsubstantiated according to source materials:

Any "esoteric" links made to Socionics after its foundation are irrelevant, as being esoteric, they are naturally unsubstantiated, and thus not worthy of merit.

This statement is unsubstantiated according to sources. The sources show that socionics is a protoscience, as it decended from ausura augusta. it is clear that socionics is a protoscience that is on par with philosophies similar to hermeticism. Hermeticism also has had scientific claims, that are now either labeled protoscientific or pseudoscientific. It is clear that the methods of ausura augusta are on the fringe of current scientific methods, and that while it is safe to say that ausura augusta may have believed her theory to be of a scientific standard, it was a protoscientific standard that also had esoteric qualities, therefore esoteric methods are also at the base of socionics theory as it decended from ausura augusta, despite her potential belief in the scientific development of her theory.

And in relationship to the following:

Hypotheses with some substatiation may be worthy of inclusion because they have been shown to have some link to the initial hypothesis, but otherwise, it is not Socionics as Augusta defined it."

There are no hypothesis'. Socionics is indefinatelly a protoscientific theory on par with the same scientific methods involved with hermeticism. This is the neutral truth. --Rmcnew (talk) 20:22, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

A protoscience most certainly can be a hypothesis. In the case of socionics, it has some case studies which have supported the initial hypotheses. Not only have you not shown hermeticism to have any scientific merit, but you have also failed to show how hermeticism has a link to socionics theory as derived by Augusta which has any quantifiable correlation - i.e. relevance. You have shown once again that you have no idea how the scientific method works. RudieBoy (talk) 15:14, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Once again I ask that other editors avoid making personal attacks, for example, the statement "you have shown once again that you have no idea how the scientific method works" obviously has nothing to do with editing the information in the article. Furthermore, the above statement has no validity in rebuttal other than for the purpose of ignoring the evidence showing socionics socionics to either be wholly hermetic or heavily influenced by hermeticism, and for the sake of making a personal attack, which according to established logic is a flawed way to make rebuttals. --Rmcnew (talk) 00:51, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

First, off, Dmitri Lytov himself had stated that the socionics elements were associated with the central nervous system. The hermetic order of the Golden Dawn, Tantra Buddhism, and new age philosophies have stated that the tattwas are associated with the central nervous system. The socionic elements are a triangle, a square, a circle, and an L shaped crecent. The tattwas are a triangle, a square, a circle, a crescent shape, and an oval shape.

Second, chakras and their relationship to the information elements have been shown to be an intregal part of socionics theory, as well as chakras and tattwas have been an intregal part of hermetic philosophies, tantra philosophies, and new age philosophies.

Third, Bukalov has not only authored officialy hermetic and other esoteric/new age material for publishing from his official publishing house in Kiev, Ukraine, he allows esoteric methods in relationship to socionics theory to be published from his publishing house. If you are too oblivious or stubborn to note the substantiality of this fact in relationship to socionics theory, heaven and earth raining itself on you probably isn't going to change your mind on the matter.

Fourth, the sources themselves make blatant ommisions that esotericism is present in socionics theory, in various forms. It is futile to deny this. --Rmcnew (talk) 01:06, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

"Third, Bukalov has not only authored officialy hermetic and other esoteric/new age material for publishing from his official publishing house in Kiev, Ukraine, he allows esoteric methods in relationship to socionics theory to be published from his publishing house. " -- What exactly are you referring to? Unless hermeticism is known by a different name in Russian, I have heard nothing of it in Russian socionics. Bukalov has dabbled in new-age topics such as astrology. However, I disagree with the claim that Bukalov had a significant influence upon the development of socionics theory. As I understand, and have had no reason to question, the theory was developed by Augusta within a group of friends and associates in Vilnius. Bukalov learned of socionics, I believe, when Augusta was giving public lectures on it in Kiev. A reading of Augusta's books in Russian shows that she treated the ideas as scientific hypotheses that were in need of further development and empirical studies. The tendency at socionics conferences in Kiev is increasingly to divorce socionics of proposed connections to the esoteric or nonscientific and to push for greater academic acceptance of the field.

Finally, my last name is DeLong, not Dulong, and I don't consider myself an "associate of Bukalov," as this would suggest some sort of professional relationship. "Personal acquaintance" would be accurate. --Rick DeLong (talk) 01:15, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I would like to respond to a number of things here:

"What exactly are you referring to? Unless hermeticism is known by a different name in Russian" - Rick Delong

Now, if you are wondering about "synergetics" and "cybernetics", they both come from the philosopher Buckminster Fuller, as is indicated by this google websearch: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=synergetics+cybernetics&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

It is known to socionics as "synergetics". Dmitri Lytov refers to the "hermetic science (yes, actually click on the blue link)" that was recently rederived as "synergetics", which comes from the esoteric philosopher Buckminster Fuller. This is Dmitri Lytovs account.

“Informational approach” (Alexander Bukalov, Olga Karpenko, Vladimir Ermak and others, and on the other hand - the alleged “Antisocionics” of Shiyan). Its adherents refer to socionics types as “types of information metabolism.” Moreover, they consider this concept not only applicable to the human psyche, but – in a more global sense – to “information” in general. It is significant that these ideas are extremely similar to some eccentric views, but also to synergetics (the theory of self-organizing systems), having recently sprouted from the depths of cybernetics. Unfortunately, very little is known scientifically about the relation of socionics with synergetics and, in a broader sense, with cybernetics. There is also the matter that the Kiev international institute of socionics is highly sympathetic to a number of esoteric approaches, rejected by the scientific world.

And the following below by Bukalov is recognizably "synergetics" and also "hermeticism":

Physics of Consciousness Boukalov A.V. Conscience and the Universe

It is shown that the universal vacuum if viewed as a conglomerate of relativist fields may be described as a giant computing system that controls movement of micro-particles and macro-bodies (planets, stars, etc.) Alike physical processes run in semiconductor crystals of modern computers used for construction of artificial intelligence systems. As an analogue of macro-computer, the Universe in total inevitably possesses attributes of consciousness and intelligence, and its particular subsystems interact with human consciousness and find their interpretation within the framework of religious systems and beliefs. Key words: consciousness, physical vacuum, computer, computations, religion. --Rmcnew (talk) 01:32, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

"Bukalov has dabbled in new-age topics such as astrology. However, I disagree with the claim that Bukalov had a significant influence upon the development of socionics theory." - Rick Delong

Bukalov is dabbling in more than just new age astrology, he is dabbling in hermeticism itself under the guise of 'synergetics', hermetics of which is actually the source of astrology. You claim that Bukalov has had no significant influence upon the development of socionics theory. That is different than what is claimed by Dmitri Lytov, who claims that it was Bukalov who redefined the current structure of socionics theory. --Rmcnew (talk) 18:58, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

This is what Dmitri Lytov says:

"Two researchers from Kiev, Victor Gulenko and Alexander Bukalov, reformed socionics: they defined its subject and methodology, and created its terminology, which is used until now. Due to their activity, Kiev (Ukraine) became an “informal capital” of the socionics. "

"A reading of Augusta's books in Russian shows that she treated the ideas as scientific hypotheses that were in need of further development and empirical studies." - Rick Delong

As far as what you said about Ausura Augusta believeing her theory to be scientific and empirical, I agree with that. But, her methods should be examed. She could have had a entirely different idea of science that conflicts the methods of science people recognize today. So, going by Ausura Augusta's word alone that her ideas are (by hypothesis) scientific is not enough to qualify her theory or even socionics in general to be scientific. --Rmcnew (talk) 19:09, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

As far as the tattwas and information elements are concerned, those are both a part of hermeticism and also tantra philosophy, so the tattwas through either one or both of those could have been the model for the derivation of the socionic shapes. --Rmcnew (talk) 22:36, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

It is about time someone decided to help collaboratively rewrite the esoteric development section

Finally! Good God ... I have been wanting people to help rewrite that section for ages.

The inspiration section and the criticism section should be separate. They don't normally go together. You are going into too much detail. We need only summarize socionics in this article. If you want to discuss your philosophy, then you should publish it in a reliable source and reference it here. This will allow you to receive criticism which will also make your point more reputable. Tcaudilllg (talk) 22:23, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

When you take a neutral position in writting thesis' and academic papers, you want to make sure that you acknowledge both sides of an issue. I am skepticle that following much of what you insinuated above would actually threaten neutrality, going back to when specific editors were being oppressive towards specific of socionics theory they did not want to be discussed in the article openly, when I am feeling now that what was written within the last few days being closer to a more neutral viewpoint. --Rmcnew (talk) 16:59, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

For example the following:

"The inspiration section and the criticism section should be separate. They don't normally go together." - Tcaudilllg

In order to take a neutral position in one sentence, you want to acknowledge each opposite view in the same sentence, useing subordinant clauses in the sentence. For example, a neutral way to acknowledge both the critics of socionics and the proponents in one sentence is to state something like "Though it has been argued that socionics is a mystic sciences by critics, authoritative proponents argue that socionics is a protoscience, working its way to become a legitimate social science. This is a neutral viewpoint in represnting both points of view.

Now, an example of breaking apart this neutrality would be to seperate the critic viewpoints and the proponent viewpoints, which is what you suggested and I disagree that this is appropiate. I also see the potentiality of a hint of the possibility of one specific individual intentionally abuseing wikipedia policy, for example, by isolating legitimate viewpoints in regards to socionics theory to one individual, whose credibility can be attacked in order to promote one viewpoint, to the exclusion of other viewpoints that should acknowledged, and are not actually connected to that one individual. This could lead to a "certain individual" setting another up for a "argument against the person" or Argumentum ad hominem, at least this looks highly suspecious that this is the case, espcially when it could be claimed that someones "credential" as say, a "theologian" could be used as a reason to "unneutrally exclude valid viewpoints in socionics theory that deserve acknowledgement and representation", which is not neccessarily a logically fallacy in itself except when used in the sense that an another individual wants to use anothers credentials to exclude away things that have no connection to that individual whatsoever, and thus promote unneutrality. And that is what concerns me about this "specific individuals" motive, espcially when that means promoteing the "Socionics is like Jung there is no esoterics viewpoints", which would be unneutral to promote unless it also acknowledged the point of view that claims that "socionics has esoteric roots, stemming from outdated science and mystic science". This point of view is a valid one that is disconnected from the opinions and research of "Reuben McNew" or "Theologians.

In regards to this:

"We need only summarize socionics in this article" - Tcaudilllg

Socionics IS being summarized in this article, and I am taking the suggestion as an unneutral suggestion and thus, I think it is a suggestion that would be bad for the article, taking that the actual inference is that anything that conflicts with the "socionics is only like Jung, no esoterics and should not be emphasized" viewpoint and mentions anything remotely "esoteric" should be taken out of the article, which is a thought and suggestion from you I believe to be unneutral. --Rmcnew (talk) 18:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

More Proof That Socionics Has a Heavy Hermetic Influence Through Synergetics, or Otherwise

There were two men involved with Synergetics and Cybernetics research. Hermann Haken and Buckminster Fuller. It should be noted that both men involved themselves with cybernetics and synergetics, as Dmitri Lytov claims that this philosophical theory has had an influence on socionics through the socionics school in Kiev. In any case, I found this weblink below to demonstrate the different emphases they had on the theory.

I call this third option synergetic evolution, recalling Buckminster Fuller’s emphasis on synergy (wholes greater than the sum of their parts). Physicist Hermann Haken explored synergetics as the dynamic of self-organizing complex systems. - http://zanngill.com/2dd.html

To complement the above statement from the link, I give these two following weblinks:

The world view of Hermetic philosophy - The hermetic world view can be integrated on a content level. However, instead of aiming at integrating duality by „remembrance“, S.T. instead aims at generating new states of organization as they have never existed before. Existence as a whole is in a continuous process of development towards unknown open „ends“. The polarity of mechanism on the one hand (God as clock-maker, everything is static) and vitalism on the other (causation can`t be accounted for in physical terms; teleology) has been transcended. - http://www.synergetic-therapy.com/Introduction/Introduction.html

By striving for comprehensivity, synergetics gives its student a means to translate inputs and discoveries from many walks of life into an efficient storage and retrieval system. In this sense, it links up with the memory arts as passed down through the hermetic tradition, is a kind of computer programming language. - http://www.grunch.net/synergetics/synintro.html

And these further two statements from Dmitri Lyton and Alexander Bukalov:

Alexander Bukalov - Physics of Consciousness Boukalov A.V. Conscience and the Universe - It is shown that the universal vacuum if viewed as a conglomerate of relativist fields may be described as a giant computing system that controls movement of micro-particles and macro-bodies (planets, stars, etc.) Alike physical processes run in semiconductor crystals of modern computers used for construction of artificial intelligence systems. As an analogue of macro-computer, the Universe in total inevitably possesses attributes of consciousness and intelligence, and its particular subsystems interact with human consciousness and find their interpretation within the framework of religious systems and beliefs. Key words: consciousness, physical vacuum, computer, computations, religion. --Rmcnew (talk) 01:32, 31 July 2009 (UTC) http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/ejpsy/psy_0412.html#top http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/ejpsy/psy_0412.html#top

Dmitri Lytov - “Informational approach” (Alexander Bukalov, Olga Karpenko, Vladimir Ermak and others, and on the other hand - the alleged “Antisocionics” of Shiyan). Its adherents refer to socionics types as “types of information metabolism.” Moreover, they consider this concept not only applicable to the human psyche, but – in a more global sense – to “information” in general. It is significant that these ideas are extremely similar to some eccentric views, but also to synergetics (the theory of self-organizing systems), having recently sprouted from the depths of cybernetics. Unfortunately, very little is known scientifically about the relation of socionics with synergetics and, in a broader sense, with cybernetics. There is also the matter that the Kiev international institute of socionics is highly sympathetic to a number of esoteric approaches, rejected by the scientific world. http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/articles/24685-information-metabolism-dmitri-lytov.html

Proof positive that Alexander Bukalov is indeed studying, personally, synergetics theory

This is an abstract of an article that Alexander Bukalov himself wrote. Go to this link, find the paragraph below and see the key word: synergetics

http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/ej/soc_98_1.html

A.V.Bukalov Quantum Changes of Informational Medium The notion is suggested of the quantum change and structuring as per functions of informational metabolism of the informational medium within the collective or society in general. "Primitive" group is considered; it is shown, that 8 functional roles of this group correspond to 8 functions of the model of informational metabolism (A model). E.g.: the "chief of the gang" belongs to the first, i.e. programming function. Attention is given to the roles distribution in administrative group and A model function. Key words: socionics, quantum changes of the informational medium, primitive group, administrative group, psychology, synergetics, model of informational metabolism.

17th century hermeticism, with a revival in the 1950s onward

The conception of society as a system that could be modelled and controlled through information processing and feedback loops fascinated not only the cybernetics researchers but also architects, planners and designers of the time. The simple and hermetic systems of first-order cybernetics, working mainly with engineering and mathematical models, gave way to second-order cybernetics which dealt with 'open systems', or the interdependence of systems, be they social, natural or technical, including factors such as complexity and risk. Cybernetics also expanded into the late 1960s cultural moment of discontent, paranoia and movements for change, offering an epistemology that spread from the control-oriented planning of the government and the military into sectors as various as business, art and counter-cultural politics and technology.

Source: http://www.janvaneyck.nl/0_2_3_events_info/arc_08_systems_exposed.html

Hermetic books, ancient metaphysical works dealing essentially with the idea of the complete community of all beings and objects. Authorship of the books was attributed to the Egyptian god of wisdom, Thoth, whose name was sometimes translated into Greek as Hermes Trismegistus and was therefore equated with the Greek god Hermes. The books treat of a variety of subjects, including magic, astrology, and alchemy, and were particularly influential in the 3d cent. with the Neoplatonists and in France and England in the 17th century.

Source: http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0823498.html

Hermeticism is a historiographical phrase describing the work that attempts to reconstruct the mode of thought held by 17th century scientists. It primarily traces out the connections of Renaissance (16th century) modes of thought with those of the Scientific Revolution (17th century). This type of analysis began with English historians of science in the 1960s. This category of history of science work has largely subsumed earlier academic philosophers' work on the problem of transition from Aristotelianism to 17th century science.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/Hermetic_science

Analysis and Conclusion

Analysis:

During the 1960s, there was a revival of 17th century hermetic science.

Hermeticism is a logical system, which has been used to understand groups.

The revival of hermetic science sprouted several theories, such as synergetics and cybernetics.

cybernetics, as a philosophy, was intended to solve some of the social problems in the 1960s

Ausura Augusta and other socionists intended socionics to explain human relationships, as an empirical social science.

Hermetic science uses the tattwas, which resembles the socionics information elements.

Hermetic associations have associated the tattwas, to the central nervous system via chakras

Ausura Augusta and other socionists have made associations between the information elements, and the central nervous system via chakras.

Alexander Bukalov has written numerous articles with hermetic, cosmological, and other esoteric content, and apparently has studied synergetics, which sprouted from hermetic science.

Conclusion:

All evidence dictates that socionics is hermeticism

Only the evidence you used dictates that socionics is hermeticism. This is original research. If a notable person explicitly admits that socionics is hermeticism, then you mention in the article that said person said this, but it's still speculation, so it would likely be limited to a subsection about theories or to criticism. If the official socionics associations admit that socionics is hermeticism, then you can actually add it to the summary. You might be right, but even if you were, your own research has no place in this article. When I can google your name and see "PhD" beside it, your claims might make the criticisms section.

This is the kind of research that would be appropriate for a university thesis, but it violates Misplaced Pages:No_original_research. "To demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented." Directly support, in this case, would be the publication of your claim on either http://www.socioniko.net/en/ or http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/, which are really the only two reliable online sources (besides e-books), because everything is peer-reviewed by a bunch of PhDs in Psychology. Really, I could remove anything and everything that isn't from those two websites or a book from this page. I'm not going to be the dick, though.

And I realize the redundancies in my comment, but I figured the more I repeat myself, the better the message will be conveyed. That, and I'm getting lazier and more annoyed after each of my replies. MichaelExe (talk) 23:04, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

If a notable person explicitly admits that socionics is hermeticism, then you mention in the article that said person said this, but it's still speculation, so it would likely be limited to a subsection about theories or to criticism.

http://www.socioniko.net/en/ was Dmitri Lytov's website before he sold it. In fact, there were artcles that I wrote linked from that website at one time. As far as Cybernetics and Synergetics goes in relation to the Kiev Socionics School and Alexander Bukalov, this is Dmitri Lytov's observation, and there are articles on the socionics.ibc.com.ua, one in specific written by Alexander Bukalov himself, that is notable synergetics theory in its own keyword title (this is listed on the website). Now, you say that both socioniko.net and socionics.ibc.com.ua are both credible websites, and also that it would require someone with a PHD to make the socionics-synergetics-hermeticism link credible. As far as education, I have not gone any further than a Masters Degree program, and I don't think I can find someone who has a PHD, who is also an authority in socionics, but I am pretty sure that I find someone with a PHD who can state that synergetics and cybernetics theory is hermeticism, because those theories are more widely known to people with PHDs, than say socionics. So, I'll just go find myself someone with a PHD who knows about hermeticism, cybernetics, sygernetics, and show that person all the evidence I have that socionics is just simply an offshoot of hermeticism. Have that person write a statement up that can be published, stateing such. If that is what it takes, I can do that. I know quite a few people with PHDs. --Rmcnew (talk) 01:26, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Ridiculous. As I said before, you aim only to confuse. You want to make socionics seem as unscientific as possible to as many people as possible. Tcaudilllg (talk) 23:15, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Or rather, Tcaulldig, you are upset that you can not frame socionics to be more scientific than it might actually be, which would result in the article being an unneutral mess that is biased towards a viewpoint that lifts socionics up as some neo-Jungian offspring divorced from anything seemingly outdated scientificwise or esoteric. How about this, why don't we agree to stop complaining and agree to represent all viewpoints neutrally? It is easier than you would think. --Rmcnew (talk) 01:26, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

sources (1-11)

Dmitri Lytov - "So, Augusta created a framework of socionics. But it needed a reform. The necessity of a reform became obvious in the last years of perestroika (1989 – 1991). Although official psychology was still under strong influence of the official ideology, more and more Western psychological books came to Russia, were translated and published. In the beginning, there were only few authors – Eric Berne, Sigmund Freud, Erich Fromm, Carl Jaspers. But from now on socionics had to compete with other trends in psychology, because Soviet (and later post-Soviet) psychology became pluralistic. Two researchers from Kiev, Victor Gulenko and Alexander Bukalov, reformed socionics: they defined its subject and methodology, and created its terminology, which is used until now. Due to their activity, Kiev (Ukraine) became an “informal capital” of the socionics." http://www.psihologia.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1503&sid=f39af7defe85e5b10864a55b2aac7381 --Rmcnew (talk) 22:53, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Dmitri Lytov - “Informational approach” (Alexander Bukalov, Olga Karpenko, Vladimir Ermak and others, and on the other hand - the alleged “Antisocionics” of Shiyan). Its adherents refer to socionics types as “types of information metabolism.” Moreover, they consider this concept not only applicable to the human psyche, but – in a more global sense – to “information” in general. It is significant that these ideas are extremely similar to some eccentric views, but also to synergetics (the theory of self-organizing systems), having recently sprouted from the depths of cybernetics. Unfortunately, very little is known scientifically about the relation of socionics with synergetics and, in a broader sense, with cybernetics. There is also the matter that the Kiev international institute of socionics is highly sympathetic to a number of esoteric approaches, rejected by the scientific world. http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/articles/24685-information-metabolism-dmitri-lytov.html --Rmcnew (talk) 22:58, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Rick Delong - After Aleksandr Bukalov established the International Institute of Socionics in Kiev, Ukraine, some rivalry or differences of opinion arose between Augusta and the group in Kiev, or perhaps with Bukalov himself. Augusta came to the conferences for several years, then stopped coming as her health worsened. Perhaps she felt marginalized by the socionics community. In fact, two volumes of her works were published without her approval by someone else, and she apparently did not receive any royalties from book sales. Now a pensioner, Augusta lived a very poor life like almost all elderly people in the former Soviet Union after its collapse. Emissaries from Kiev and Moscow schools of socionics would collect donations and bring them to her in person to help her subsist. In her final years Augusta became involved in mysticism, which drew criticism from many socionists. - http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Aushra_Augusta

I.P. Mameneva - Analytical Psychology Kameneva I.P. Psychical Energy: Symbols and Metamorphoses - C.G.Jung's ideas on psychical energy are considered in the context of his psychoanalytical experience set forth in his work Libido, Its Metamorphoses and Symbols. Symbols of psychical energy indicate the direction of its movement from the mother to other objects and images, which in general reminds dynamics of Kundalini energy in Tantra Yoga. In A.Augustinavichiute's model the scheme of informational metabolism of each type determines specifics of its energetic potential and in separate cases also aptitude towards certain esoteric practices. Key words: symbols, consciousness, unconscious, archetypes, psychical energy (libido), system of Chakras, psychical functions, informational metabolism, energetic metabolism, mental loop, vital loop, socionics. http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/ejpsy/psy_0612.html

Rick Delong - Aushra Augusta, the founder of socionics, was an ILE, and this has been decisive for the field's development. Augusta discovered a logical system and formulated its key principles, but left much work undone. After her main period of work on socionics, she drifted into esoterism, and I know nothing about her post-socionics development - only that it is outside the realm of contemporary socionics. For most ILEs, the search is never over. - http://socionist.blogspot.com/2007/03/typing-religions-teachings-and_3955.html

Rick Delong - Augusta was the kind of person who broadcasted her insights far and wide, and I think she would have run around saying, "look, these ancient texts are saying the same thing I've been saying!" She was not shy at all about discussing possible connections between socionics and chakras, though her ideas were purely speculative. - http://socionist.blogspot.com/2009/03/development-of-english-language.html --Rmcnew (talk) 18:38, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Dmitri Lytov - In 1980—1995 socionics existed as a "club of adherents" outside the official psychology. Groups of socionists appeared in different cities of the Soviet Union, but this was not enough to make socionics recognized by official psychologists. On the one hand, such isolation from psychologists positively influenced socionics: it developed without Marxist-Leninist stereotypes that overloaded Soviet psychological works of that time. On the other hand, such isolation created an illusion among many socionists that socionics were not a part of psychology, it rather were “a new science” with its own methods, subject etc. This was a dangerous trend: there was a real danger that socionics would turn into something esoteric, mystical. http://www.socioniko.net/en/articles/lytovs-intro2.html

Olga Tangemann - The associative model of a human psyche is based on the model of the informational metabolism and psychoanalytic concepts, in which components of personality, socionic functions and colors of the chakras are considered as a dialectic interaction and expression of psychic energy. A human psyche seeks the harmony and balance between the mind and soul, between the physical and psychic components of personality. Traditional socionics study informational metabolism of a person and does not pay enough attention to the dynamic processes within the psyche and without those the informational metabolism could not be fully understood and explained. The Butterfly model (the associative model) of a human psyche is aimed partly to fill the gap in our understanding of a human psyche from the perspective of psychodynamics as well as to proclaim the indissoluble unity of the information and energy processes within the psyche from the perspective of psychology, socionics, philosophy and esoterics. http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/ejpsy/psy_09_1.html

Dmitri Lytov -(За соционику без ошибок, translation: For the Socionics without errors), Lytov says: "I think sooner or later, we are forced to answer the question of how socionic types correlated with central nervous system." - which implies that the Socionics is generally considered to be associated with the central nervous system, but that at this stage (or at least at the time of the article in 2001), Socionics remains a theory about information processing, which does not go into how. I think this is significant because it shows that although the exact correlation between the types and aspects of the central nervous system have not yet been established, the Socionics elements have always been considered to be processes carried out by the central nervous system. - http://socionics.org/theory/Default.aspx?load=lytov_mistakes.html

Alexander Bukalov -Physics of Consciousness Boukalov A.V. Conscience and the Universe - It is shown that the universal vacuum if viewed as a conglomerate of relativist fields may be described as a giant computing system that controls movement of micro-particles and macro-bodies (planets, stars, etc.) Alike physical processes run in semiconductor crystals of modern computers used for construction of artificial intelligence systems. As an analogue of macro-computer, the Universe in total inevitably possesses attributes of consciousness and intelligence, and its particular subsystems interact with human consciousness and find their interpretation within the framework of religious systems and beliefs. Key words: consciousness, physical vacuum, computer, computations, religion. --Rmcnew (talk) 01:32, 31 July 2009 (UTC) http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/ejpsy/psy_0412.html#top http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/ejpsy/psy_0412.html#top

Rick Delong - Most socionists would agree that socionics is not a hard science like physics or chemistry, since it has no purely quantitative formulation. Its methodology is more on par with the social or soft sciences like sociology and psychology. At the same time it makes rather specific predictions unlike, for example, Freudian psychology. It therefore occupies an intermediate zone known as protoscience. http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Socionics_as_science --Rmcnew (talk) 16:43, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Tcaudilllg (talk) Rmcnew (talk) 20:47, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

"Socionics — the science of the socion, the socionic nature of man and the socionic structure of society, different types of people's information metabolism (IM), and different forms of relationships between them — was born on the foundation of the typologies of C.G. Jung, E. Kretschmer, A.E. Lichko, and A. Kempinsky's theory of information metabolism." --Rmcnew (talk) Rmcnew (talk) Misplaced Pages is not the place to publish your own opinions, experiences, arguments, or conclusions." What Tcaudilllg should have said is "If you put anything in the article outside of criticisms, which seems to contradict the official position of socionics, or does not have direct support, then I'll revert you." As I see it, you're both still tied with 0 - 0 (and wikipedia is not about winning). Either way, I've left a note on Misplaced Pages:No original research/Noticeboard and requested mediation. MichaelExe (talk) 23:48, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

"If you put anything in the article outside of criticisms, which seems to contradict the official position of socionics, or does not have direct support, then I'll revert you." OK, that's actually what I meant. I've never been precise with my wording. Tcaudilllg (talk) 07:35, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The problem I see with Tcaudillig making claims of an "official position" is that tcaulldig could very well be intending to use this "vague claim" to tell 'white lies' in order fool people into not sideing against his position, while at the same time createing his own claims that are impossible to back up (with sources), as an excuse to make reversions to other peoples good faith edits. Tcaudillig has no right to make "white lies" in order to justify his -bad faith- reversions. That is bullshit. In fact, he has no right to revert anything on the basis of any vague claims with bad logic, such as a supposed "official positions". Tcaudillig should just stop making these ridiculous reversions for bad reasons (or even better: stop makeing reversions to other peoples edits entirely) - he has a history of doing that. --Rmcnew (talk) 16:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

And that is besides that fact that Tcaudilllg is also removing information concerning the represention of viewpoints that do indeed exists in socionics theory, that are questionable for some socionists, but have historically been a part of socionics theory even from the founding. Such as the comparison of the socionic information elements to hindu and esoteric orderings of chakras, on the human body, for the study of health and wellness. He seems to want to uplift socionics as some "Jungian offshoot" over these other viewpoints, which is disrupting neutrality. --Rmcnew (talk) 16:59, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

rmcnews 12th source

Source: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://club.trios.e-gloryon.com/index.html%3Fpage%3D6507071433&ei=r16xStyuJ5P6MbnS7PIN&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=3&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25D0%25A7%25D0%25B0%25D0%25BA%25D1%2580%25D0%25B0%2B%25D1%2581%25D0%25BE%25D1%2586%25D0%25B8%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B8%25D0%25BA%25D0%25B0%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

Chakra - is energy-centers people in the etheric double as saucerization or vortices on its surface. They originate from the central energy channels (nadi) Sushumna passing inside the spine. All chakras are in constant rotation as the wheel (in Sanskrit chakra means wheel). In their mouth open continuously flows into the energy of a higher plane. According to Charles Leadbeater, a manifestation of life flows emanating from the second aspect of the Solar Logos: 'It is what we call' primary force ': Without this flow of energy the physical body simply could not exist. Therefore, these centers are active in every human being, although those who have not yet reached a certain level of development, the chakras are rotating very slowly and only form a knot, is necessary for the perception of energy, and no more than that. , , '. In more developed centers of these people are burning and throbbing life with light, and therefore passes through them much more energy, resulting in a man opened more ability and opportunity '.

Thus, the chakras perform several functions:

Energy - the saturation of vital energy (prana) of each cell of the human body, and therefore supports their lives and communicate with each other. You can think of points as the collectors of cosmic energies. Correct thinking about direct food most of the higher centers. Solar plexus absorbs the energy of each message and consciously fertilizes manifested centers. So understanding the fiery centers is the most essential task. Medical only able to identify the disease, when will know according to cosmic energy '(Agni Yoga. Hierarchy.).Each center corresponds to a specific nerve plexus, is responsible for the efficient work of certain internal organs. 'Sickness or disease of any part of the body are accompanied by insufficient flow of the Vital Force to that part' (Charles Leadbeater). Implementation of the relationship between human bodies to transfer energy and information from higher planes to the physical and vice versa. Information - each chakra is responsible for the transfer of certain types of information. Injected energy, passing through the spokes or petals centers, is divided into component parts or qualities that define their own radiation - a vibration. Therefore, when a person develops a certain moral quality, it increases the vibration of the corresponding chakra, which further lead to a gradual disclosure. As a result of increased energy-flow toward the center, and this will be an impetus for the development of mental skills and abilities of people, as well as improve the state of the internal organs to which the energy of this chakra. Agni Yoga says: 'Mental Health is the main basis of the health of the body. When the spirit can eat right higher energies, and it will prevent the body from the dangers - that's why - can not be a doctor not a psychologist and he can not neglect the wonderful psychic energy '.

In other words, the functions of the chakras - this is an information and energy exchanges both within the person and the person with the outside world, the degree of active centers depends on the mental and physical health.

According to T.N. Prokofiev, the subject of Socionics is a 'study of the processes of information exchange rights with the world and their impact on the psyche'. It is therefore important Socionics, having studied the energy-centers, to draw parallels between these ancient teachings and the young science socionics. Moreover, the study of this topic to determine the correspondence between the features and functions socionic awakened centers. In the future, this matter will give a new clue to the study of psychological, socionic and health problems of man, will open a new approach to study the causes of diseases

Tatyana Prokofieva has a recognized PhD in socionics

According to this link http://www.socionics.ru/index_eng.htm, Tatyana Prokofieva has a PhD. in socionics. This makes the below statement and the information, in russian (webtranslated), on this link credible.

(Edited Translated) According to , the subject of Socionics is a 'study of the processes of information exchange rights with the world and their impact on the psyche'. It is therefore important Socionics, having studied the energy-centers (chakras), to draw parallels between these ancient teachings (protoscientific and esoteric philosophies) and the young science socionics. Moreover, the study of this topic to determine the correspondence between the features and awakened centers (chakras). In the future, this matter will give a new clue to the study of psychological, socionic and health problems of man, will open a new approach to study the causes of diseases --Rmcnew (talk) 18:46, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

(Origional Translated) According to T.N. Prokofiev, the subject of Socionics is a 'study of the processes of information exchange rights with the world and their impact on the psyche'. It is therefore important Socionics, having studied the energy-centers, to draw parallels between these ancient teachings and the young science socionics. Moreover, the study of this topic to determine the correspondence between the features and functions socionic awakened centers. In the future, this matter will give a new clue to the study of psychological, socionic and health problems of man, will open a new approach to study the causes of diseases

Translated from:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://club.trios.e-gloryon.com/index.html%3Fpage%3D6507071433&ei=r16xStyuJ5P6MbnS7PIN&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=3&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25D0%25A7%25D0%25B0%25D0%25BA%25D1%2580%25D0%25B0%2B%25D1%2581%25D0%25BE%25D1%2586%25D0%25B8%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B8%25D0%25BA%25D0%25B0%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG</ref>

Socionics.ru website - Headed by PhD. Tatyana Prokofieva - has an article on Chakras

Origional: http://www.socionics.ru/chakry.htm

Translated: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://www.socionics.ru/chakry.htm&ei=8YmySrNcksQ2v9aVzQs&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=4&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25D0%25A7%25D0%25B0%25D0%25BA%25D1%2580%25D0%25B0%2B%25D1%2581%25D0%25BE%25D1%2586%25D0%25B8%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B8%25D0%25BA%25D0%25B0%2Bsocionics.ru%26hl%3Den

(Translated) - In seeking a solution to this problem there are many different scientific concepts, schools of philosophy, psychological training. Study of the impact of information on the human psyche deals and Socionics, and neurolinguistic programming, and Dianetics, etc.

But the problem is not new. More than two thousand years ago the ancient philosophers of India decide this issue by studying the structure of meditative man, his thin shells. Thus were discovered and investigated energy information centers, or chakras. From the teachings of the chakras, the impact of them on a conscious, psycho-emotional life and human health and the connection of this theory with socionics introduces this article.

1. Part 1. Chakras

According to ancient Hindu esoteric psychology of man consists of seven bodies: the Higher, immortal, Triads, or the body of fire, and four lower, transient early man. For more than two thousand years ago, doctors knew the enormous influence the spiritual and mental condition of the person to his health. "Agni Yoga says:" The causes of disease lie at the root of the connection between the physical and astral worlds. The body reflects the investigation of claims originating in all the layers and depths of the cosmos. It would seem clear what the indissoluble relationship exists between the macrocosm and microcosm, but it also enlightened minds, this notion is not taken into consideration and not to go ahead with research ... The relationship between the bodies and the interaction of currents should be investigated, because the inability to accurately determine the status of the organism and his disease, not setting the fiery match. Fine study of the spiritual and physical condition will make it possible to find the fluids of decomposition. ... Because it is so important your doctor know the spiritual condition of the patient. When diseases and their control should be borne in mind the consistency of bodies and the inextricable link between them "(Fiery World. Part 3). Such a connection between the physical and other bodies carried through the Energy Centers rights, or chakras. Charles Leadbeater, a British priest, a member of the Theosophical Society of HP Blavatsky, wrote: "The chakras, or centers of power - this is the point through which energy is transferred from one body to another." So what is a chakra?

Request for informal mediation

A request for informal mediation has been opened at Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-09-16/Socionics.

Named parties to the mediation are:

• User:Rmcnew
• User:Tcaudilllg
• User:MichaelExe
• User:Rick DeLong
• User:RudieBoy

I am offering my services as an impartial mediator for this issue. Discussion regarding the raised matter can take place at the Mediation link above.

Informal mediation is non-binding and seeks to find consensus. Although I am an administrator I do not exercise any of my administrative rights while conducting mediation. If any parties find me unacceptable as a mediator, please advise and I will attempt to find a replacement.

Manning (talk) 05:12, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with meditation, but I do object to the fact that the initial premise of mediation is one which singles me out, when the problem is one amongst various other editors. I have already stated my own argumentation on the mediation page --Rmcnew (talk) 19:01, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Rmcnew - I have excised your lengthy comments and moved them to the discussion page for the mediation. This is NOT a criticism or assessment of your statements, merely a matter of mediation procedure. Also please do NOT be concerned with the wording of the mediation complaint. You will be given plenty of opportunity to present your side and the initial formulation has no impact on my opinions.

To all parties involved in the complaint: mediation is NOT a freeform discussion and it involves a degree of restriction on commenting. Mediation is usually employed because freeform discussion has broken down. I have explained how things will proceed at the mediation page. Regards Manning (talk) 01:27, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

The Sources I Find Unreliable

in this article are (including other links from the same websites):

1. http://www.socionics.us/index.shtml
2. http://www.socionics.com/advan/vi/vi.htm
3. http://socionist.blogspot.com/2009/03/development-of-english-language.html
4. http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/articles/24685-information-metabolism-dmitri-lytov.html
5. http://www.psihologia.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1503&sid=f39af7defe85e5b10864a55b2aac7381
6. http://www.magicalpath.net/articles/tattva.htm
7. http://golden-dawn.blogspot.com/2009/02/golden-dawn-tattwas-their-little-known.html
8. http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Aushra_Augusta
9. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Definitive-Socionics-Info/113529516599?v=info

A quarter of them don't even name the author, a quarter have insufficiently educated authors and half of them are forums, blogs, facebook or wikisocion. Most of them are not direct sources. Really, http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/ is the most reliable English source (a decent amount of educated people), and http://www.socioniko.net/en/index.html to a lesser extent (a barely passable amount of educated people, so you'd have to see who said what before using anything). That's why books and translation (like rmcnew has done with the Google translator) are probably the best options, although you still have to notice the credibility of the authors. I didn't go through the Russian or translated articles. MichaelExe (talk) 01:57, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Credible sources

I am adding source links of what I think is credible here (sourcewise):

http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/ <--- Kiev Socionics Institute - Alexander Bukalov - mostly russian and some english

http://www.socioniko.net/en/index.html <--- probably biggest credible english archive

http://www.socionics.ru/index_eng.htm <--- Socionics Institute in Moscow - Chief Director of institute: Ph.D. in Socionics Tatyana Prokofieva - russian and english

http://www.socionik.ru <--- russian only

http://socionics.org/ <--- russian only

http://www.socionic.ru/ <--- russian only

http://socionics.kiev.ua/ <--- russian only

http://www.socionika.info/ <--- russian only

http://www.socionik.com.ua/ <--- russian only

Sources from credible authors

Dmitri Lytov has an article in russian on the socionics.org website

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsocionics.org%2Ftheory%2FDefault.aspx%3Fload%3Dlytov_mistakes.html&lp=ru_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

The following could be credible or questionably credible:

http://ru.wikipedia.org/%D0%A1%D0%BE%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0

2006 Socionics conference in Kiev Ukraine.

I agree that socionics.us may not be as credible (sourcewise), but I include the following link, as it documents a lecture event at the Kiev Socionics Institute. It can be used to help discover credible sources from legitimate socionists. Pictures of professional socionists are included on the page (as well as some descriptions of them, and also talks).

http://www.socionics.us/interviews/conference_2006.shtml

Book sources that have not been translated professionally into english

I think actual print book sources that are not translated into english should not count as viable sources unless there is a viable other internet or similar source that could be compared, such as from Dmitri Lytov or similar person. Otherwise, it could be possible for basically anyone to make any rediculous claim that has no proof of backing (looking right at some specific editors, who have been doing this, ones name starts with a T), while using the "Dual Nautre of Man" or any other prime socionics book as a source. For example, some editor could claim that "Ausura Augusta" said such and such in "Dual Nature of Man", when very few english speaking people can even read this book. It can not be readily refuted in the event the editor was making a shakey claim. This book has never been professionally translated.

Translation and copying information from foreign language wikipedia - cutting down on origional research

I think another way to correct the origional research issue among the whole article in english is to copy translated aspects from out of the russian siconics wikipedia article.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fru.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F%25D0%25A1%25D0%25BE%25D1%2586%25D0%25B8%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B8%25D0%25BA%25D0%25B0

I was thinking the same thing, but we'd still have to go through all of the sources. It could provide us with some good sources, too, though. MichaelExe (talk) 22:51, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I went ahead and translated a couple paragraphs out of there. I just have to include the links that were on the wikipedia, the way they are in the russian article. --Rmcnew (talk) 23:29, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I just got done adding the sources --Rmcnew (talk) 00:24, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Someone needs to call Signbot, because all those "anonymous" posts were by Rmcnew.

Wow, you didn't even mention Humanitarian Socionics. Way to npov Mcnew. Tcaudilllg (talk) 11:42, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Tcaudilllg, the fact that you mentioned and attempted to infer that wikipedia has a tendency to sign me out while editing is a bad thing on my part is completely rediculous, and trying to make me seem as though I have an unneutral position because I don't have the godlike ability to magically edit in every theory in existance concerning socionics theory over night is abusrd and rediculous, and transparently manipulative. I don't know how the hell you think you can keep being this way and expect to get away with it. --Rmcnew (talk) 18:55, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Just removed a signifigant amount of origional research and replaced with russian wikipedia information

I just got through removeing a signifigant amount of origional research and replaceing it with credible information from the russian socionics wikipedia article. I am going to add some more translated stuff tomorow.

I like, rmcnew, how you masked your bid to insert esoteric-related information behind a veneer of social responsibility. I had thought you capable of that in the context of my expansion model of Model B, and this act is proof of the idea. You appealed directly to paleoconservatism/empire. Yeah very interesting. On the other hand, the article in its current state simply does not reflect the opinion of leaders in the field. (Lytov is not a leader and it is frustration with that status that has lead him to withdraw).

Anyway you've yet to cite your sources. I never was a fan of the Russian article for reasons that should be pretty plain. Tcaudilllg (talk) 07:08, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I find it interesting that you are concealing the fact that I have contact with Gulenko through his blog and that he and I are of like mind on these matters. You are aware that I phrased the info metabolism intro so as not to fauxly intrude on the territory of the energy model, and to prevent confusion. You not only acted disingenuously, but made a point of exalting disproven hypotheses which contradict the energy model.

Of course that Gulenko wrote such a thing is not something we can cite on Misplaced Pages because the antiquidated rules preclude us from citing blogs as reliable sources. The point is that I understand the opinion of socionists on those matters, and that my "original research" represented. Although he doesn't want to admit it, Lytov has fallen out of the socionics mainstream because of regrettable personal biases. If he wants to correct his position, that is up to him. But Gulenko trumps Lytov any day, and Boukalov doesn't do public so Gulenko is the voice of socionics at this time.

I'll make this point: I just want to get people interested in socionics. That's the only reason I'm here. Once people get interested in socionics, I figure everything will take care of itself. (providing they understand the true spirit of socionics and not Rmcnew's delusional appraisals thereof, because if that happened it would be hugely detrimental to the cause of socionics and even Jungian typology.) Tcaudilllg (talk) 11:03, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Tcaudilllg, you can state your opinion on the matter, but that is all that it is ... your opinion on the matter. Though you seem to lack the ability to state your opinion on the matter respectfully and without resorting to bad logic with no foundational backing, such as using personal insults and biased extortation to back up your opinion. It is also quite obvious and transparent that your agenda is to exclude legitimate viewpoints in socionics theory that conflict with your understanding of Jung Typology, which is unneutral point of view on your part. I disagree with your methods to interest people in socionics, because you are simply distorting legitimate socionics for the cause of the gain of your own opinions on what is good or bad, and that attitude doesn't deserve to be reflected in the article, which is why the information in the russian wikipedia article is replaceing origional research from you and also myself in this article. --Rmcnew (talk) 17:10, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Tatyana Prokofieva, PHD, certified article mentioning tattva (same as tattwa) and socionics information element connection with hindu beliefs in chakras

Tatyana Prokofieva who has a recognized Ph.D. in Socionics, approved the following article for publication on her website, which represents the socionics stance of " The Research Institute for Socionics" located in Moscow, Russia. It should be noted that the following article is peer reviewed and PHD certified. The following article is peer reviewed and PHD certified. The following article is peer reviewed and PHD certified. The following article is peer reviewed and PHD certified. The following article is peer reviewed and PHD certified. The following article is peer reviewed and PHD certified. The following article is peer reviewed and PHD certified. The following article is peer reviewed and PHD certified. The following article is peer reviewed and PHD certified. The following article is peer reviewed and PHD certified. The PHD who certified the article is Tatyana Prokofieva who has a recognized Ph.D. in Socionics. Tatyana Prokofieva chairs theThe Research Institute for Socionics, as a Ph.D. in Socionics.

THE ARTICLE IS SIGNIFIGANT IN THAT, AS IT IS A PHD CERTIFIED SOCIONICS ARTICLE ON THE OFFICIAL "RESEARCH INSTITUTE FOR SOCIONICS" WEBSITE. THE EARTH TATTWA, A YELLOW SQUARE IS EQUATED TO INFORMATION ELEMENT OF THINKING. THIS IS A PHD CERTIFIED ARTICLE ON AN OFFICIAL SOCIONICS WEBSITE.

Source: (origional) http://www.socionics.ru/chakry.htm

Source: (translated) http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://www.socionics.ru/chakry.htm&ei=8YmySrNcksQ2v9aVzQs&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=4&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25D0%25A7%25D0%25B0%25D0%25BA%25D1%2580%25D0%25B0%2B%25D1%2581%25D0%25BE%25D1%2586%25D0%25B8%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B8%25D0%25BA%25D0%25B0%2Bsocionics.ru%26hl%3Den

According to T.N. Prokofieva, the subject of Socionics is a "study of the processes of information exchange rights with the world and their impact on the psyche." It is therefore important Socionics, having studied the energy-centers, to draw parallels between these ancient teachings and the young science socionics. Moreover, the study of this topic to determine the correspondence between the features and functions socionic awakened centers. In the future, this matter will give a new clue to the study of psychological, socionic and health problems of man, will open a new approach to study the causes of diseases.

1. 1. The lowest chakra - root (basal), or Muladhara ( "mule" - root "adhara - support).This chakra is considered as a link between the physical and subconscious worlds. It is located in the coccyx. Manages the processes of purification of the body and corresponds to the sacral nerve plexus. Its endocrine gland is the prostate is associated with male sex organs, rectum and colon. Of the organs of perception and action conform to her nose (sense of smell) and legs. When unbalance the Muladhara Chakra there hemorrhoids, constipation, sciatica, prostatitis, an inflammation of the ovaries......

1).....Indeed, the Muladhara chakra corresponds to the primary element (Tattva) earth, the planet Saturn.

2).....The most relevant Muladhara chakra socionic functions - business logic (P).

OLGA KARPENKO, Peer reviewed PHD article from http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua ... speaks on the relationship between Chakras, Hindu Philosophy, Astrology, and other Esotericism.

OLGA KARPENKO, from the KIEV SOCIONICS SCHOOL headed by ALEXANDER BUKALOV, discusses CHAKRAS, ASTROLOGY, and SOCIONICS as it relates to HINDUISM, NEW AGE PHILOSOPHY, and in a way consistent with SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS AND BELIEVES IN HINDU OR SIMILAR PHILOSOPHY.

Source: (origional) http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/t/olly295.html

Source: (translation) http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/t/olly295.html&ei=cyK5SpvtG4eaMb-EudsP&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522%25D0%2595%25D1%2581%25D0%25BB%25D0%25B8%2B%25D0%25B6%25D0%25B5%2B%25D0%25B3%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B2%25D0%25BE%25D1%2580%25D0%25B8%25D1%2582%25D1%258C%2B%25D0%25BE%2B%25D1%2580%25D0%25B0%25D0%25B7%25D0%25BD%25D1%258B%25D1%2585%2B%25D0%25BF%25D0%25BB%25D0%25B0%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B0%25D1%2585%2B%25D1%2587%25D0%25B5%25D0%25BB%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B2%25D0%25B5%25D0%25BA%25D0%25B0%2B%25D0%25B2%2B%25D1%2582%25D0%25B5%25D1%2580%25D0%25BC%25D0%25B8%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B0%25D1%2585%2B%25D1%2582%25D0%25B5%25D0%25BB%2522%26hl%3Den

What are we talking about? 

В центре внимания соционики, безусловно, человек. The focus of Socionics, of course, man. Но в разных культурных традициях человека принято рассматривать с разных точек зрения. But in different cultural traditions of the people taken viewed from different points of view.

Традиция, обращающая основное внимание не столько на "информационное" сколько на энергетическое существо человека, выделяет определенные центры и уровни. Tradition, focuses less on "information" as to the nature of man power, allocates certain points and levels. Их число в различных источниках варьируется. Their number varies in different sources. Например: For example:

Эти центры, называемые в Индии Чакрами находятся не в нашем физическом теле, а в другом измерении, хотя концентрация в них бывает временами столь интенсивна, что у нас возникает острое локализованное физическое ощущение. These centers, called Chakras in India are not in our physical body, but in another dimension, although the concentration in them is at times so intense that we get a sharp localized physical sensation. На самом деле, некоторые из них довольно близки к различным нервным сплетениям нашего тела, хотя и не все. In fact, some of them quite close to the various nerve plexuses of the body, though not all. Если же говорить о разных планах человека в терминах тел или оболочек: физическое тело, эфирное, астральное, ментальное, каузальное, - то можно проследить некоторую закономерность: наличие в каждой оболочке "особых точек", определяющих, в конечном итоге, ход развития соответствующего тела. If we talk about the different plans in terms of human bodies or shells: physical body, etheric, astral, mental, causal - then we can trace a certain regularity: the presence in each shell of the "special points" that determine, ultimately, the course of development of the body . Так, если обратиться к физиологии, то развивающееся существо (особенно на ранних стадиях) обладает скрытыми (непроявленными) особыми точками, деятельность которых приводит к формированию органов и тканей тела. So, if we turn to the physiology, developing being (especially in the early stages) has a hidden (neuter) singular points, whose activity leads to the formation of organs and tissues of the body. Известен эксперимент, в котором на крыле развивающейся бабочки удалялась одна-единственная чешуйка - в центре будущего концентрического узора, и узор не просто нарушался, он вообще не возникал. Known experiment in which the developing butterfly wing in removed one single scale - in the center of the future of a concentric pattern, and the pattern is not just broken, it does not arise. Иммунологи пользуются гипотезой о существовании в человеческом организме единственной клетки, ответственной за процессы кроветворения и иммунитета. Immunologists favor of the hypothesis of the existence of the human body the only cells responsible for the processes of hematopoiesis and immunity. Б. В. Болотов говорит о клетке-лидере. BV Bolotov said of the cell leaders. Органы внутренней секреции и нервные сплетения являются центрами поддержания и регуляции функций нашего организма, подобно "особым точкам фазовой плоскости" нашего физического благополучия. Bodies glands and nerve plexus are the centers of maintaining and regulating the functions of our body, like the "special points of the phase plane" of our physical well-being. Аналогичную роль выполняют чакры в эфирном теле, определяя его "конфигурацию" и особенности функционирования. A similar role is performed chakras in the etheric body, defining its "configuration" and operating features.

Физиологи и анатомы изучают центры нашего физического тела. Physiology and anatomy study centers of our physical body. Тому, что сенситивы видят (ощущают) чакры и иные образования эфирного тела, мы уже не удивляемся. Tom, that sensitives can see (feel) the chakras and other education etheric body, we are not surprised. Несколько неожиданными оказались результаты опытов, проводимых А.В.Букаловым с сотрудниками , подтвердившие наличие неких энергетических образований, вполне соответствующих функциям информационного метаболизма. Several unexpected were the results of experiments conducted by AV Bukalova and colleagues , confirmed the presence of certain power structures, it is relevant functions of information metabolism. Более того, их локализация в проекции на физическое тело соответствует их положению в ментальном и витальном кольцах модели А: витальные функции в области живота (что, в свою очередь, соотносится с витальным планом), ментальные - в области шеи и головы. Moreover, their localization in the projection on the physical body corresponds to their position in the mental and vital rings model A: the vital functions in the stomach area (which, in turn, is related to the vital plane), mental - in the neck and head.

Можно представить такую многослойную, просвечивающуюся картинку, где каждый слой соответствует определенному уровню, где нервные сплетения, чакры, ФИМ, иные образования словно проявляют в различных фазовых плоскостях непроявленные, скрытые особенности, присущие тому ядру внутри нас - Я, душе, монаде, надевшей на себя все эти оболочки, эти все более и более плотные одежды, позволяющие воплотиться и существовать в различных пространствах, использовать их в качестве инструментов. I can imagine a multi-layered, translucent image, where each layer corresponds to a level where the nerve plexus chakra, FIM, and some education like a show in different phase planes undeveloped, hidden features inherent to the core inside of us - I, soul, monad, who had put on themselves, all these shells, these increasingly tight clothing, to translate and exist in different spaces, use them as tools.

Интересно, что янтры (символы), соответствующие чакрам, имеют в своем начертании некоторые нумерологические признаки - число лепестков, окружающих центральное поле. Interestingly, yantras (symbols), corresponding to the chakras are in their mark some numerological signs - the number of petals surrounding a central field. С этим числом можно соотнести некую классификацию по тому же количеству признаков (некоторую типологию), например, чакре муладхаре с 4-мя лепестками, находящейся в зоне физического, соответствует, в частности, типология 4-х темпераментов, идущая от Гиппократа (сангвиники, холерики, флегматики и меланхолики), или классификация по типам телосложения. With this number can be correlated to a certain classification of the same number of characters (some typology), such as chakra Muladhara with 4 petals, located in the zone of physical, corresponds, in particular, a typology of 4 temperaments coming from Hippocrates (sanguine, choleric , phlegmatic and melancholic), or classification by type of physique. Чакра анахата с 12-ю лепестками определяет астрологическую типологию по основанию 12 (зодиак, восточный круг животных), но существуют и менее используемые типологии по основанию 6 и 10. Anahata Chakra with 12 petals astrological defines a typology of the base 12 (zodiac, eastern range of animals), but there are less used the typology of the base 6 and 10. Чакра вишудха представляет для нас наибольший интерес, поскольку отвечает за возможность построения 16-ти типных классификаций, с одной из которых и работает соционика . Chakra vishudha represents for us the greatest interest, as responsible for the possibility of constructing a 16-tipnyh classifications, one of them and works socionics . Существует классификация и более плотного уровня по основанию 2 - разделение полов, присущее большинству биологических видов. There is a classification and a more dense level of the base 2 - the separation of the sexes, inherent in most species.

Каждая типология наиболее четко разграничивает понятия, касающиеся именно своего уровня, своего плана, и бывает беспомощной на других уровнях. Each typology is most clearly defines the concepts related to it on its own level, its plan, and is helpless on the other levels. Так, если астрологическая типология по основанию 12 по своей семантике привязывается к чакре анахате, то наиболее сильной ее стороной является выделение различных проявлений эмоциональной сферы человека, особенностей его витальных и астральных мотивов и устремлений. So if astrology typology of the base 12 and its semantics is tied to the Anahata Chakra, the most powerful of its side is a selection of different manifestations of the emotional sphere of rights, especially its vital and astral motives and aspirations. Физиологи любят работать с классическими темпераментами, выделяя их не только у людей, подмечая взаимосвязь функциональных особенностей организма с особенностями нервной деятельности (но физиологии нервной деятельности). Physiologists like to work with the classical temperaments, singling them not only from people noticing the relationship of the functional characteristics of an organism with features of neural activity (but the physiology of nervous activity). А соционика, обращаясь с понятиями, семантически близкими уровню чакры вишудха, наилучшим образом отличает нюансы ментальной (и все же более рассудочной) деятельности человека, значительно хуже описывая эмоциональную окраску его действий или физиологические особенности. A Socionics, referring to the concepts which are semantically close to the level of chakra vishudha that best distinguishes the nuances of mental (and still more rational) human activity, much less emotional in describing his actions or physiological features.

Типологии по разным основаниям в определенном смысле независимы друг от друга: встречаются "Габены" холерики и "Габены" флегматики, мужчины и женщины принадлежат к одним соционическим типам, под одним зодиакальным созвездием, даже в один и тот же день рождаются люди разных соционических типов и различных темпераментов. Typologies for different reasons, in a sense independent of each other: there are "Gabeny" choleric and Gabeny "phlegmatic, men and women belong to one of Socionics types under one zodiacal constellations, even in the same day are born people of different types and socionic different temperaments. И в то же время все эти уровни влияют друг на друга: особенности ментальной деятельности мужчин и женщин, а в конечном счете их соционические характеристики, различны, но общие типные свойства сохраняются; холерический темперамент представителей двух различных ТИМов может иметь одинаковые проявления; у родившихся в одном знаке зодиака черты сходства могут проявляться ярче их соционического (ментального) различия. And at the same time, all these levels affect each other: particularly the mental activity of men and women, and ultimately their socionic characteristics are different, but the general tipnye properties are preserved; choleric temperament representatives of two different TIMov may have similar manifestations, in-born One sign of the zodiac similarities may appear brighter than their socionic (mental) differences.

Итак, мы должны признать, что предмет соционики принадлежит совершенно определенному (и не наивысшему) уровню ментального плана. So, we must recognize that the subject of Socionics belongs absolutely certain (and highest) level of the mental plane. Это уровень речи, слуха, второй сигнальной системы, уровень собственно разума, мышления, коммуникации, общения. This level of speech, hearing, the second signal system, the level of your own mind, thinking, communication, communication. Соционика наиболее сильна в описании явлений именно этого среза сознательной деятельности человека. Socionics is strongest in describing the phenomena of this particular slice of conscious human activity. Существуют более высокие уровни: мышление не связанное с речью, невербальные каналы общения. There are higher levels: thinking is not associated with speech, nonverbal communication channels. Но поскольку наш разум пытается охватить и интегрировать все пласты нашей психики, то и соционика в своей модели пытается "открыть представительства" на всех уровнях сознания. But since our mind is trying to capture and integrate all the layers of our psyche, then Socionics in his model tries to "open a representation" at all levels of consciousness. И, возможно, роль таких "полпредств" отводится определенным местам функций в модели А. And, perhaps, the role of such "embassy" is given a certain duty functions in the model A.

Дело в том, что говоря о витальном кольце модели, о витальных функциях, мы практически не сталкиваемся с собственно витальными - подсознательными реакциями. The fact is that in talking about the vital ring model of the vital functions, we do not face the fact vital - subconscious reactions. Это скорее предсознание, некие смутно, но все же осознаваемые реакции. Rather predsoznanie, some vague, but still conscious reaction. Человек, даже не знакомый с соционикой, но имеющий высокий уровень рефлексии, способен вполне дать отчет о своих действиях и их мотивах по аспектам витальных функций. The man did not even familiar with socionics, but having a high level of reflection, is able to fully to account for their actions and their motives on aspects of vital functions. Но в таком анализе он все же не сможет сравниться с тем, у кого эти функции развиты в ментальных блоках. But such an analysis, he still can not be compared with those who have these features developed in the mental block. Если нам удастся услышать беседу двух таких людей, то, будучи достаточно чуткими, мы уловим, что за рамками разговора осталось очень много недосказанного (с ментального блока) и невыразимого (с блока витального). If we can hear the conversation of two such people, then, being sufficiently sensitive, we caught that in the framework of conversation left a lot of things to discuss (with the mental block) and ineffable (to block vital). Диалог дуалов, который в буквальном восприятии кажется не несущим информации, не стыкующимся ("про Фому и про Ерему"), тем и замечателен, что эти области недосказанного и невыразимого чудесным образом перетекают друг в друга, нет необходимости все проговаривать, достаточно лишь намекнуть, нет нужды все прорисовывать, достаточно лишь обозначить. Dialogue duals, which in the literal perception does not seem to carry information, not stick (about Thomas and about Eremu "), and the remarkable fact that these areas of unspeakable things to discuss and miraculously into one another, and no need to pronounce, it is sufficient only to hint do not need all the draws, we need only designate.

Но, обратившись к функциям ментального блока, мы замечаем, что и здесь все не так просто. But, turning to the functions of the mental block, we notice that here is not that simple. Об аспектах первой функции говорить не так уж легко - слишком свернута, спрессованна информация, ее просто не успеть развернуть за сколько-нибудь разумное время. On aspects of the first function to speak not so easy - too discouraged, spressovanna information, it simply did not have time to deploy for any reasonable time. Поэтому мы чаще оставляем больший кусок в тени, и только "тождик" или "родственник" способен его там рассмотреть: им-то слова не нужны, им самим приходится откалывать по камешку от той же глыбы. Therefore, we usually leave a bigger piece in the shadows, and only "tozhdik" or "relative" is able to consider it there: they are certain words are not needed, they themselves have to get off stone by stone from the same block.

Вторая функция оказывается в более выгодном положении. The second function is in a better position. Это уже не спутанный клубок ниток - за какой конец ни потяни - не знаешь, куда придешь. This is not the tangle of threads - for what end or pull - do not know where to come. Нет, тут аккуратненький моточек: покатился - вот тебе и дорожка. No, this is neat motochek: rolled - that is the path. "Хотите, мы все вам расскажем на этом языке, а не хотите - на том". "Do you want to, we will tell you in that language, but do not want to - on that. Словарный запас тут - подспорье в изложении - речь течет плавно, широко, полноводно. The vocabulary here - an aid in the presentation - it runs smoothly, well, deeper. И перевод с языка образов и смутных ощущений на собственно язык - прост и естествен. I translate from the language of images and a vague feeling in their own language - simple and natural.

А третья функция уже не дает такой свободы. A third function is no longer gave such freedom. Ее язык очень беден синонимами и оттенками, но зато предельно конкретен и точен - это словарь, а не поэма. Its language is very poor synonyms and shades, but very specific and accurate - this dictionary, not a poem. Лаконизм же четвертой функции способен другие ТИМы привести в замешательство. Conciseness is the fourth function is capable of other TIMy confusing.

Функции витального кольца еще труднее переводят свой "внутренний язык" в общепонятную речь. The functions of the vital ring even more difficult to translate their "inner language" in the commonly understood language.

Анализ этих явлений породил понятие размерности функции, или представление о разных векторах, составляющих механизм действия разных функций. Analysis of these phenomena has created the concept of dimension functions, or of the various vectors that make up the mechanism of action of different functions. Оба эти понятия достаточно изящно описывают разницу в восприятии различными ТИМами одних и тех же аспектов мира. Both of these concepts are quite elegantly describe the difference in the perception of different TIMami the same aspects of the world. Для нас же сейчас принципиально другое: на уровне нашей сознательной, мыслительной деятельности, на том уровне, которым, собственно, и занимается соционика, функции информационного метаболизма являются проекциями особых энерго-информационных образований различных уровней. For us it is fundamentally different: at the level of our conscious, intellectual activity, at a level which, in fact, engaged in Socionics, an information metabolism are the projections of the special energy-information education at various levels. Чем "глубже" ("ниже") этот уровень, тем "меньше размерность" функции или "слабее эта функция", чем "выше" (ближе к плоскости проекции), тем "больше размерность", тем "более развита" эта функция в ТИМе. What is "deeper" (below) this level, the "less than the dimension" function or "weaker than the function" rather than "above" (closer to the plane of projection), the "large dimension", the "more developed" this function in Thieme. Чем длиннее путь проекции, тем больше искажение, тем менее полно соционика описывает функционирование ТИМа по данному аспекту. The longer the projection path, the greater the distortion, the less full socionics describes the functioning of TIM on this aspect.

Итак, для нас принципиальными являются следующие моменты: Thus, the principal for us are the following:

1. 1. существуют различные планы человеческого сознания; There are various plans of human consciousness; 2. 2. уровни (и планы) взаимодействуют друг с другом, словно просвечивают один через другой; levels (and plans) interact with each other, like a translucent one over the other; 3. 3. соционика имеет дело с определенным пластом ментального плана; Socionics is dealing with a particular layer of the mental plane; 4. 4. на каждом уровне соответствующего плана существуют свои типологии; each level of the plan has its own typology; 5. 5. типы в типологии дискретны. types in the typology of discrete. Последнее положение требует некоторого пояснения. The latter provision requires some explanation. Человек (в норме) имеет генетически заданный пол, особенности телосложения и функционирования систем организма, которые выделяются методами физиологии. Person (normally) has a genetically defined sex, especially the constitution and functioning of body systems, which were isolated by physiology. Он рождается в определенный момент, и это задает его астральный тип. He was born at a certain point, and this gives him an astral type. Он принадлежит к одному типу ИМ. He belongs to one type of IM. И, при этом, он не исчерпывается ни одним из типологических описаний, ни какой бы то ни было их комбинацией. And, while it is not limited by any of the typological descriptions, or whatever it was their combination. Типы всех типологий суть координаты некоторого многомерного пространства, а человек представляется в этом пространстве некотором многомерным объемом, и все те заданности, о которых было сказано чуть выше, есть лишь проекции на соответствующие оси координат. Types of typologies are the coordinates of a multidimensional space, and the person appears in this space, some multi-dimensional volume, and all those assignments, which are mentioned just above, there is only a projection on the corresponding coordinate axis.

Длительное время обсуждается вопрос о возможности перехода из типа в тип. For a long time discussing the possibility of transition from type to type. Одна из сторон этого вопроса связана с особенностями любого рода проектирования: имея проекции на все координатные оси, мы рассматриваем лишь ту, которая, в силу выбранных нами критериев, имеет наибольшее значение. One aspect of this issue is connected with the peculiarities of any kind of design: having a projection on all axes, we consider only the one which, because of our chosen criteria that matter most. Чем более "объемный", сложный человек перед нами, тем менее полным будет такой взгляд на него. The more "volume", a complex man in front of us, the less complete will be a look at him. Другая сторона сродни проблеме вживания в образ у актеров. The other side is akin to the problem vzhivaniya in the image at the actors. Если у человека принадлежность, например, к астральному типу подчеркивает эмоциональность, то даже будучи логиком в соционической классификации, он чаще и проще, чем прочие логики, будет использовать эмоциональное воздействие на других (разного рода "этические штучки"). If a person belongs, such as the astral type emphasizes emotion, even as a logician in socionic classification, it is more likely and easier than other logic that will use the emotional impact on others (a different kind of "ethical things"). Если же на разных планах повторяются одни и те же черты (а наши возможности в их дифференциации ограничены хотя бы потому, что не безграничен наш язык), то такому человеку труднее "выскочить из типа", сыграть другой тип ИМ (хотя такая черта - способность к перевоплощению - тоже может стать типным признаком). If, however, on different planes repeated the same traits (and our ability to differentiate is limited, if only because that is not infinite, our language), then such a person difficult to "jump out of the type" to play a different type of infarction (although such a feature - the ability to to reincarnation - may also become tipnym sign).

В порядке отступления. By way of derogation. Очень интересными бывают попытки актера сыграть человека другого ТИМа (надо сказать, что, к чести режиссеров, они довольно точно подбирают на роли именно нужные типы, в тех ситуациях, где типные особенности достаточно выражены). Very interesting are the attempts of another actor to play a human TIM (I should say that, to the credit of directors, they fairly accurately pick up on the role of types is needed in situations where tipnye features quite pronounced). Зрителю, в случае несовпадения, часто приходит в голову, что события так тоже могли бы развиваться, но в их ходе есть некоторая натяжка, искусственность, игра. The audience, if different, often comes to mind, so that events could also develop, but in their course have some stretch, the artificiality of the game. Еще интереснее, когда, например, пьесу, написанную о героях из одной квадры, ставит другая (еще лучше - ортогональная) квадра. Even more interesting, when, for example, a play written about the heroes of a quadra, put another (even better - orthogonal) squares. В этих ситуациях постановщики часто идут к явному гротеску, шаржированию, иначе очень трудно осмыслить мотивы и логику поступков героев. In these situations, directors often come to a clear grotesque, sharzhirovaniyu, otherwise very difficult to comprehend the motives and logic of the actions of heroes. Да, достаточно лабильный, способный к перевоплощению, вживанию в образ, наблюдательный человек может изобразить, сыграть реакции, присущие другому ТИМу, но это лишь игра, которая не может длиться вечно. Yes, quite labile, capable of reincarnation, vzhivaniyu in the image, observant person can portray, to play the reaction specific to another Tim, but it's only a game that can not last forever.

В этом свете можно рассмотреть и проблему подтипов: не пытаемся ли мы очень часто выдать за подтипы ТИМов это "просвечивание" других уровней, ведь оно неизбежно будет сказываться и на построении соционических отношений. In this light, we can consider the problem of subtypes: do not try we often pass for subtypes TIMov a "translucence" of other levels, because it will inevitably have implications on the construction of socionic relations. Астральные влияния уже рассматриваются (Шульман) и существенно дополняют соционический анализ при разборе конкретных, жизненных ситуаций. Astral effects already discussed (Shulman) and substantially complement socionic analysis when examining specific, everyday situations. Также важным представляется аспект доминирования различных центров. Also important is the aspect of the dominance of the various centers.

Наблюдения показывают, что у дуальных супружеских пар с одним доминирующим центром процесс дуализации может столкнуться с проблемами на других, недоминантных планах. Observations show that the dual couples with one dominant center of the process of dualization may face problems in the other, nedominantnyh plans. Так, например, для пары с доминантой третьего (ментального) центра может оказаться затрудненным собственно эмоциональное общение, - люди жалуются, что при полном понимании друг друга не находят живого естественного отклика, ищут большей теплоты и задушевности. For example, for couples with a dominant third (mental) of the center may be impeded proper emotional communication - people complain that a full understanding of each other are not living a natural response, seek a greater warmth and intimacy. При доминировании второго (витального) центра могут не сразу гладко складываться именно физические, близкие взаимодействия, но имеет место глубокая душевная, эмоциональная связь, сохраняющаяся даже на расстоянии. With the dominance of the second (vital), the center could not immediately smooth shape is natural, close interaction, but there is a profound spiritual, emotional connection that even at a distance. В паре с доминантой первого (физического) центра часто неудовлетворенными оказываются ментальные потребности: трудно понять интересы, цели и дальние планы другого, хотя повседневная жизнь складывается благополучно. In tandem with a dominant first (physical) center are often unmet mental needs: it is difficult to understand the interests, goals and long-range plans for another, although daily life consists safely. Если же у дуалов доминируют разные центры, то картина иногда, как ни странно, смягчается, не находящие отклика внутри диады запросы обращаются вовне - к родным, друзьям, знакомым, социуму; если же этого "экстравертирования" не происходит, то отношения могут, напротив, резко обостриться. If you have duals dominated by different centers, the picture sometimes, oddly enough, is softened which have no response within a dyad inquiries turn outward - to family, friends, society, but if this "ekstravertirovaniya" does not occur, then the relationship may, on the contrary dramatically worsen. И все эти варианты - лишь оттенки дуальных отношений, которые партнерами расцениваются как вполне хорошие, но не идеальные. And all these options - only shades of dual relationships that partners are regarded as quite good, but not ideal. Реальный человек всегда выдает помимо сигналов собственно соционического уровня (чего ждет его дуал) прочие сигналы, определяемые, например, его астрологическим типом, темпераментом или иными особенностями. A real man always gives out signals in addition to the actual socionic level (which is waiting for its dual), other signals are defined, for example, his astrological type, temperament or other characteristics.

Возможно, что собственно ментальные подтипы, т.е. It is possible that the actual mental subtypes, ie связанные с особенностями деятельности разума, мы видим гораздо реже, чем все вышеперечисленные варианты - целостная природа человека неизмеримо богаче любого набора классифицирующих признаков. associated with the peculiarities of the mind, we see much less often than all of the above options - holistic nature of man is immeasurably richer than any set of classifying attributes.

Если многообразие проявлений различных людей в одном и том же типе столь велико, то закономерен вопрос: для чего же нужны эти типы и не было ли их выделение результатом некоего произвольного волевого (или мыслительного) усилия. If the manifold manifestations of different people in the same type of so great a logical question: why did we need these types and whether their selection was the result of a random strong-willed (or thinking) effort. То, что методы факторного анализа подтверждают наличие 16-ти типов личности, не устраняет вопроса: "зачем?". The fact that the methods of factor analysis confirm the presence of 16 personality types, does not eliminate the question: "Why?". Вероятно, затем, чтобы каждый тип выполнял свою особую, специфическую роль. Perhaps, then, that for each type, its special, specific role. Откуда же могла возникнуть такая специализация? Whence could such a specialization? Нельзя ли сказать, что некоторые из этих ролей лучше (нужнее, полезней, удобней), а другие - хуже? Can we say that some of these roles better (get a useful, convenient), and others - worse?

Вернемся опять к шкале уровней и типологий. Returning again to the scale levels and typologies. Первичное разбиение на 2: "+" и "-", мужское и женское. Primary partition into 2: "+" and "-" male and female. Выкрики сторонников (сторонниц) эмансипации или феминизации будут слышны еще долго. Shouts supporters (supporters), or the feminization of emancipation will be heard for a long time. Но вопрос оказывается более глубоким: признавая равноправие, равноценность, равнозначность полов, нельзя закрывать глаза на существование асимметрии. But the question is more profound: recognizing equality, equivalence, equivalence of the sexes, one can not ignore the existence of asymmetry. Известно: на создание женской гаметы идет значительно больше энергии, чем для мужской; мужских зигот достоверно больше чем женских; мальчиков рождается 105 на сотню девочек, но в дальнейших возрастах число уравнивается, а после 60 лет перевес женщин заметен уже и без статистики. It is well known: the creation of female gametes is much more energy than for men, male zygotes significantly more than women, 105 boys are born for a hundred girls, but in later ages the number of calls, but after 60 years, the preponderance of women is evident and no statistics. Что это, если не яркое выражение явной асимметрии? What is it, if not clearly expressed a clear asymmetry?

Иной пример: меланхоликов меньше чем флегматиков, холериков или сангвиников. A different example: less than melancholic phlegmatic, choleric or sanguine. Еще пример: и в течение года, и по месяцам, и в течение суток существуют подъемы и спады рождаемости. Another example: in the year, and for months, and within days there are ups and downs of fertility. Анализировались даты рождения многих видных ученых - явная асимметрия в распределении по годам и в течение года. We analyzed birth dates of many eminent scientists - is a clear asymmetry in the distribution by year and within a year. Да и в народной медицине накоплены многочисленные рекомендации, привязанные к различным временным периодам. Yes, and in folk medicine has accumulated numerous recommendations that are linked to different time periods. Не известны аналогичные исследования в типологии по основанию 16 - они были бы чрезвычайно трудоемкими, но что подобная асимметрия может иметь место - вполне допустимо предположить. There are no known similar studies in the typology of the base of 16 - they would be extremely time consuming, but that this asymmetry can take place - it is quite possible to assume.

Все типы равны, но их роли асимметричны. All types are equal, but their roles are asymmetrical.

В нашем асимметричном (в физическом смысле) мире социон также имеет асимметричную "конфигурацию" и потому роли одних типов проявлены, а других - скрыты, находятся словно по ту сторону нашей реальности, и в чисто социальном смысле непроявлены. In our asymmetric (in the physical sense) the world socion also has an asymmetric "configuration" and therefore the role of one kind of manifest, and others - are hidden, are like on the other side of our reality, and in a purely social sense neproyavleny. Подтверждение этому мы обнаруживаем в совершенно неожиданной области - в магической практике мексиканских индейцев фигурирует Команда Нагваля из 16-ти членов, описание ролей которых удивительно совпадает с соционическими описаниями ТИМов . Confirmation of this we find in an unexpected area - in the magical practices of Mexican Indians appeared Nagual team of 16 members, a description of roles which surprisingly coincides with the descriptions socionic TIMov . Цель, к которой они стремятся, может быть достигнута только совместным действием . The purpose for which they seek can only be achieved by the joint action .

Признавая за каждым типом ИМ особую, выделенную роль не только в соционе, но и в Мире, нельзя не задаться вопросом о тех механизмах, которые наделяют человека ТИМом. In recognition of each type of them by themselves, highlighted the role not only in socion, but in the world, it is impossible not to wonder about the mechanisms that confer rights Tim. То, что новорожденный обладает определенным, но еще не проявленным, не обнаруживаемым обычными методами, ТИМом, было убедительно доказано в работе Букалова . The fact that the newborn has a certain, but not yet manifested, not detectable by conventional methods, Tim, has been convincingly demonstrated in Bukalova . На основании анализа исследований С.Грофа, в ней сделаны выводы, что фиксация в памяти, в психике индивидуума определенных фаз его перинатального развития является решающим фактором в формировании его типа ИМ. Based on analysis of studies S. Grof, it concluded that the fixation in the memory, in the psyche of the individual certain phases of its prenatal development is a crucial factor in shaping the type of IM. Но должен существовать какой-то механизм, выбирающий те моменты из 9-месячной истории развития плода, которые окажутся самыми важными, самыми "запоминающимися". But there must be some mechanism that selects the points of the 9-month history of fetal development, which would be the most important, the most "memorable." Особенно странными при этом кажутся факты, что ни объективный ход беременности (анализируемый с медицинской точки зрения), ни самочувствие матери не отражают сколько-нибудь полно (за исключением случаев значительных отклонений от нормы) состояние психики плода. Especially when it seems strange that neither the objective course of pregnancy (analyzed from the medical point of view), or being a mother does not reflect any complete (except in cases of significant deviation from the norm) state of mind of the fetus. Остается предположить, что уже при зачатии задается некоторый кармический сценарий, который вначале "проигрывается" в перинатальном периоде, определяя узловые его моменты, а затем становится скрытым движителем всей дальнейшей жизни человека. One could assume that even at conception is given some karmic script that initially "played" in the perinatal period, determining its nodal points, and then becomes a hidden engine of the entire future of human life. Подтверждением этому могут служить (пока немногочисленные) примеры совпадения целых "кармических блоков" в судьбах людей, принадлежащих к одному ТИМу. Proof of this can be (so far few) examples of coincidence entire "karmic blocks in the fate of people belonging to the same Tim.

К этому же вопросу можно подойти и с другой стороны, используя "сценарный анализ" Э.Берна . The same question can be approached from the other side, using the "scenario analysis" Eric Berne . Есть факты, говорящие о том, что сценарии различных людей одного ТИМа содержат очень похожие сцены, картины, действия. There are facts which show that the scenario of different people one TIM contain very similar scenes, pictures, actions. Если еще учесть, что мировая драматургия знает лишь 16 различных сюжетов, а все ее разнообразие - различные их производные и комбинации, то мысль о сценарии жизни и карме ТИМа покажется не столь уж нелепой. If you still consider that the world knows drama, only 16 different subjects, and all its diversity - the various derivatives and combinations, then thought about the scenario of life and the karma of TIM did not seem quite so ridiculous.

И тут в наших рассуждениях можно сделать еще один шаг: осознание своего типа ИМ, освобождение от жизненного сценария и искупление кармы суть проблемы взаимосвязанные. And here in our reasoning can make one more step: awareness of its type infarction, freedom from life-script and the redemption of karma are interrelated problems.

Мы рассматривали типологии на различных уровнях сознания и при этом обошли супраментальный уровень. We examined the typology of the different levels of consciousness and thus bypassed supramental level. Вопрос о существовании какой-либо типологии этого уровня представляется чрезвычайно тонким - о закономерностях этого плана можно судить лишь со слов тех, кто достиг этих высот. The question of the existence of a typology of this level is extremely thin - about the laws of this plan can only be judged from the words of those who have reached these heights. Но, вероятно, некие различия есть и там. But perhaps there are some differences there. Спускаясь же на низшие уровни, просветленные (аватары, риши, йоги...) неизбежно пользуются одним из существующих на этом уровне каналов передачи информации (на соционическом уровне - это ТИМ, на физическом - конкретное физическое тело). Going down the same at lower levels, enlightened (avatars, Rishi, yoga ...) necessarily enjoy one of the existing at this level of information channels (for socionic level - a TIM, the physical - the specific physical body). И человеку, чтобы открыть путь, необходимо осознать все инструменты, которыми он пользуется на различных уровнях взаимодействия с Миром. And the man to open the way to realize all of the tools which he uses at different levels of interaction with the world.

Enough

That's enough. I'm going to recommend that Reuben Mcnew be blocked from editing this page. He is plainly a PoV warrior. I am tired of reverting him. It's clear he's obsessed and is NEVER going to stop. Tcaudilllg (talk) 17:31, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

The legitimate peer reviewed and phd sources I posted on socionics speak for themselves. You don't even have a leg to stand upon with your claims, and blocking me from editing wikipedia isn't going to take away the legitimate peer reviewed and phd sources that have shown to exist. Are you going to just forget you saw those sources, hide that they exist and then try to claim otherwise after I am gone? I bet you would. --Rmcnew (talk) 18:59, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Sure, because they aren't the slightest bit notable. It's a pity, Rmcnew, that you can't distinguish the notable from the non-notable. Are you obsessed with the unimportant? Tcaudilllg (talk) 21:13, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I suppose you are also going to call the information that was taken from the russian wikipedia article as non-notable. I suppose you can even call a PHD peer review article non-notable. In fact, you can call anything non-notable. How about this ... when in doubt, just call anything you don't want in the english socionics article "non-notible", bullshit around, and hope that you can sneakily convince a wikipedia administrator to isolate your opposition out for you so you can reverse positive credible changes in the article, and fill it chock full of some "origional research" marketing bullshit that isn't even proper socionics, because you don't want people to know that socionics is what socionics is - And that is exactly why it is correct to replace the "origional research" in the english wikipedia article with the sourced information in the russian socionics article! It is chock full of this "hey look socionics is totally like Carl Jung and MBTI" marketing bullshit that not only doesn't belong in the article, it is skewing the article away from representing legitimate socionics, which totally deserves to be represented in this article over that bullcrap. Especially when the legitimate socionics involves articles from peer reviewed and phd verified sources, which are notable for that very reason and belong in the article. That information doesn't deserve exclusion simply because you don't want that in the article from a marketing standpoint. That's bullshit. And for that reason, your claim of non-notability is bullshit. Knock it off. --Rmcnew (talk) 21:36, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

And besides what I wrote above, the majority of your reversions were unjustified for your reasons stated, especially in light of removeing valid information with PHD and Peer review justified sources, that comes from official socionic schools. Calling someone a "filthy pigs" doesn't take the PHD and Peer review away from the people people who publish these articles, no matter what the content and whether you agree with it or not. That information deserves to be there. Just stop being unneutral and illogical about it. Thanks. --Rmcnew (talk) 21:48, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

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