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Robert Maricle

Please add info about Robret Maricle who was killed by a white supremacist gang because he was bisexual.

In Salinas, California, a bi man was killed by members of a white supremacist group called the Nazi Loweriders. They beat and stabbed him and then took him to a wilderness location and set him on fire. They're still not certain whether or not he was still alive when he was burned.

   3 people held in Salinas killing
   Police think killing was a hate crime

   Alan Gathright, Chronicle Staff Writer

   Monday, April 14, 2003

   Three people have been accused in Salinas of abducting and torturing a bisexual carnival worker whose body police believe they found in a rural Monterey County grave Friday after an alleged hate crime killing.

   Investigators are awaiting dental-record confirmation of the decomposed body, but relatives said that Salinas police believed the victim was Robert Alan Maricle, 30, who disappeared Dec. 14 while visiting a friend at a Salinas apartment complex after strangers invited him into their unit for a drink.

   "Our investigation revealed that the three arrested persons were involved in assaulting and killing the victim," Salinas police Sgt. Dino Bardoni said in a statement. "Information developed during the investigation has led investigators to believe that one of the motives for this crime was the victim's sexual preference."

   After receiving a tip Tuesday, police over the next two days arrested Jeanne Soja, 29, of Angels Camp, Calaveras County; Dominique Daniel England, 19, of Salinas; and Daymon Douglas Schrock, 20, a Monterey-area transient who had been staying with various friends. The three have not been formally charged but are being held on suspicion of murder, conspiracy, hate crimes, torture and kidnapping. All three remain in jail on $1 million bail each.

   The missing man's father, Jerry Maricle, a retired Salinas homicide detective, said his son had last been seen when he went to visit a friend at a neighborhood apartment complex. Property records indicate that Soja lived in the Stephanie Drive complex.

   "He met some people there he didn't know who invited him upstairs for a drink, and he was never seen or heard from since," said Jerry Maricle, who along with other family members has been enduring an agonizing wait for word whether the body is his son's. Police told him the dental comparison should be done by the middle of this week.

   "I'm hoping it's not him," the father said. "But in my own heart, I knew it had to be foul play. For him to disappear and not contact us, especially at Christmas, just wasn't in his nature."

   Maricle described his son, who was openly bisexual, as a kind-hearted individual. A slightly built 5-foot-3, 105-pound man, Maricle made friends easily.

   "He just loved everybody," the father said. Although he was 30, Robert Maricle suffered from an extreme form of compulsive disorder, which gave him a short attention span. That's why he wasn't able -- or interested -- in holding jobs other than operating carnival rides and living with his mom. The missing man was recently unemployed.

   Daymon Schrock, one of the suspects, called his grandmother from jail to proclaim his innocence.

   "He said, 'Grandma, I'm not guilty of this. I didn't do it," Mina Schrock of Seaside, Monterey County, said Sunday. "I believe him. He doesn't have a hateful bone in his body. He's a little stupid and lazy, but he's not violent."

   Mina Schrock said her grandson had run with people who use the stimulant methamphetamine. Once he stayed over with her at a senior-citizen trailer park and brought along a young woman who was later convicted of stealing Mina Schrock's credit card and check book and running up fraudulent charges.

   However, the grandmother said she believed Schrock had been in jail on marijuana charges during much of December when Maricle disappeared. Schrock was arrested when he went to one of his twice-weekly drug court meetings to give a urine sample.

   Mina Schrock said she doesn't know if her grandson knew Maricle, but he did acknowledge meeting fellow suspect England in jail. Police also found England in jail, where he's been since April 1 on a forgery charge. 

This was just as horrible as what happened to Shepard and Byrd. But, the national media never picked it up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.238.240.240 (talk) 08:26, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Inclusion of serial killers

The inclusion of the serial killers John Wayne Gacy and Jeffrey Dahmer is problematic. It's not clear that self-hate was the only (or driving) reason behind their crimes. Recommend either deletion or move to separate section. omgwtf

State-sponsored violence

The article says that "The Roman Empire starting under Constantine around 400 CE." Since Constantine was emperor between 306 and 337, I think "The Roman Empire starting under Constantine in the early 4th century", or maybe "The Roman Empire starting after Constantine around 400 CE." would be more appropriate.

Statements by Cardinal Ratzinger

I added a comment on the subject of anti-LGBT violence from Cardinal Ratzinger, who said back in the 1980s that increased rights for the gay community could lead to an undesired backlash of violence against homosexuals. I think this is a relevant quote and that it could rightfully be included as part of the sociological debate on the allegedly religious character of anti-gay violence. ADM (talk) 12:29, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

No need to belabour the point at all. Surprise, a Catholic Cardinal called homosexuals inherently flawed and stated it was little surprise they were subjected to violence, we get it. Your repeated attempts to conflate LGBT people with pedophilia on numerous talkpages speak for themselves. The content we have in this article sufficient and broadly inclusive to all religions. Holding Ratzinger as an authority cited to the right-wingish Catholic League is indicative of the POV editing that is discouraged. No need to suggest Ratzinger has an authority or expertise and those outdated comments have been widely criticized and disputed by many folks including Catholics who also despise the Catholic League acting as a moral authority. Please avoid using the Catholic League to source anything but their own beliefs. -- Banjeboi 12:49, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I didn't cite those comments because they were somehow objective or authoritative, but because they had provoked a good deal of debate and discussion among scholars and LGBT activists. Ratzinger's statement would not have been notable if it were not controversial, and very often being controversial is what makes something notable. ADM (talk) 12:57, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

That justifies adding it to the Ratzinger article and possibly about Catholic attitudes towards LGBT article. -- Banjeboi 13:06, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Ratzinger's more recent comments would be more relevant (i.e., since he became Pope), and he has condemned such violence I believe. People's views change - just look at the current Archbishop of Canterbury - if Pope Benedict the umpteenth has expressed views on such violence more recently, those are the views that should be cited. Mish (talk) 22:37, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I still think what we have is fine and quoting the Pope, who leads a religion that has effected violence on LGBT people for centuries, is quite a farce. We don't quote Hitler to expound on Jewish culture nor do we look to George Bush to eloquently related the struggles of the environmental movement. -- Banjeboi 04:17, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Demographic!!

Is there a chart or listing of highest, most likely area, region, country where gay or lesbiens are more likely to be attacked? If so could it be added to this list. The Greatest Show On Earth (talk) 10:27, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Plagiarism and copyright violation

It appears that Benjiboi has committed plagiarism on this article, copying and pasting copyrighted text without making it clear that he was directly quoting the source, the SanDiego 6 News Team: With identical sections shown in bold:

• This article: "Seaman August Provost was found shot to death and his body burned at his guard post on Camp Pendleton.
  • San Diego 6: "…Provost was found shot to death and his body burned at his guard post on Camp Pendleton."

• This article: "A sailor accused of murdering him committed suicide in the base brig a week later”
  • San Diego 6: "A sailor accused of murdering a fellow seaman on duty at Camp Pendleton committed suicide in the base brig."

• This article: "Family and friends believe he was murdered because he was openly gay; the Navy said even though the killer had admitted his deed, they haven't concluded that this is a hate crime."
  • San Diego 6: "Family and friends believe he was murdered because he was an admitted homosexual. The Navy said even though the killer had admitted his deed, they haven't concluded that this is a hate crime."24.22.141.252 (talk) 05:30, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Benjiboi now edit wars to restore his plagiarized passages.

Once again:

• • This article: "Family and friends believe he was murdered because he was openly gay; the Navy said even though the killer had admitted his deed, they haven't concluded that this is a hate crime."
  • San Diego 6: "Family and friends believe he was murdered because he was an admitted homosexual. The Navy said even though the killer had admitted his deed, they haven't concluded that this is a hate crime."

Benjiboi, please stop stealing other people's work. if you must quote them word for word, then do so, with quotes.24.22.141.252 (talk) 12:19, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Benjiboi continues to edit war his plagiarism back into the article, while avoiding this discussion on talk.24.22.141.252 (talk) 12:41, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Now Benjiboi has taken to blanking this section in order to cover up the problem.24.22.141.252 (talk) 13:19, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Theses problems are worth dealing with. I believe be Benjiboi,as an experienced editor we know he is, may volunteer to clean up his own mistakes. --Damiens.rf 18:56, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I've restored this discussion, which was blanked again, per WP:TALK#Others' comments.24.22.141.252 (talk) 08:10, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Violence by LGBT against non-LGBT??

Is there a similar article of violence committed or suspected to be committed by LGBT agains non-LGBT? I recall there were some prominent cases where it was complained that such cases did not get much media coverage. Bachcell (talk) 23:42, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Prominent cases where it was complained that such cases did not get much media coverage? I doubt they'd have been prominently covered if the media didn't cover them. Mish (talk) 23:49, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, have you any cases you would like to suggest? Those are cases where LGBT attack straight people for being straight? --Cameron Scott (talk) 09:02, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

The most notable case is Jesse Dirkhising, worldnetdaily headline was "How confused 13-year-old died brutal death as a sex toy" September 23, 2002 1:00 am by Allyson Smith. Lots of complaints that this wasn't given proportionate coverage by the press. Another case that's been stuck pretty buried in ethnic and gay press is the DC Robert Wone case. No suspects have been named, but the 3 housemates have been charged with obstruction of justice. The timing, behavior, and placement of Wone's ex-college buddies makes it at least look like a 3 white gay guys on a straight Asian male assault involving an extensive collection of S&M and beyond devices too radioactive for even WND to cover. I suspect a stand-alone mirror article on such a thin topic suffer a speedy delete, but perhaps a small section in this article would be an appropriate counterbalance. Bachcell (talk) 16:08, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

This article is for, I think, violence against LGBT people for being LGBT. It does not imply that the LGBT's attackers were heterosexual, though for demographic reasons, most usually are. It would be extremely bizarre for LGBT people to attack non-LGBT people for being non-LGBT people, and the cases you have put forth do not demonstrate this, but are little more than murder cases where suspects were understood to be in a same-sex relationship, and this incidental fact was harped on by the right-wing media. They would more appropriately be placed in articles about conservative victimhood and straight white Christian male persecution complex. —the Homosexualist (talk) 16:39, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

As suggested, there are a number of problems - first the construction of this article is on the basis that the cases discussed are ones where people are attacked or murdered *because* of their sexuality. In the first case you mention, I don't see any mention that they selected him for their heinous crimes *because* he was a heterosexual? The second is equally problematically because, from my quick skim of the article, we'd need to make a lot of inferences about what had actually occurred. --Cameron Scott (talk) 16:47, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I'd agree with the two editors, there would need to be something about the attacks being because these people were heterosexual, and targeted by LGBT people because they were heterosexual. Otherwise the scandal of the death in Michael Barrymore's swimming pool would be included - although we don't know who the attacker(s) were, whether the individual who died was straight/bi or closeted-gay, and certainly not whether his sexual orientation was part of the motivation behind the attack. Mish (talk) 00:33, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Unless sources appear, it appears to be impossible to write anything anyway. BUT, i was suprised to find no section on "gay serial killers" or "Sexual assaults". I thought there were a number of serial killers that were themselves gay or repressed, and targeted gay men out of opportunity or self-hatred, often with sexual assaults. Maybe these are scattered throughout the article, but seem a different phenomenon than the rest of the examples (which seem focused on heterosexuals commiting violent acts against LGBT victims and the resultant hate-crime legislations). Likewise, i've read that LGBT people are far more likely to be victim of sexual abuse or assaults (pften by supposedly straight men), which should be covered here.

I remember this case of a guys arranging a meeting on the internet so one could be emaculated and they could eat his penis together before he was killed (all on video) . Such cases should be in this article, as the "victim" was chosen as he was gay, or the title changed so it is clear that only a specific type of violence is covered (straight against gay hate crimes). I'll make a section on serial killers soon, as i assume it is just an oversight, rather than an attempt to make this article a gay rights coatrack.

ewwwwwwBachcell (talk) 14:58, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I also think some sub-articles are needed here - the list of attacks does not make a good article for readers interested in the overall phenomenon, and though the larger number of entries from the US and UK and from recent years is understandable, it unbalances the article terribly. Any objection to making it a prose section, summarising a "List of violent incidents against LGBT people" type article?YobMod 11:08, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

No problem with that at all - I had that in mind a few months ago but my experiences on a similar article told me that it would go down fairly badly coming from me the great homophobe. Hopefully you will better luck. --Cameron Scott (talk) 15:06, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

There is a discussion about the inclusion of serial killers in the archive - the consensus was that the article was about people being targeted for homophobic violence, regardless of whether they were gay or not. Proving that people ate people because of some gay thing is a bit difficult to establish reliably in sources.

I did go to some trouble to remove the country-specific information from the big-list that this article was originally. I worked on presenting the UK information as an outline narrative, showing the relationship between notable attacks and subsequent changes in policing and legislation. If you feel you can turn that into prose, I have no problem with that. The USA section is the biggest problem, as just about any event anybody has ever heard about gets thrown in there. It would be great if that could be converted into prose in some way, but there is so much detail you can't really see the wood for the trees. As it happens, I think that the Cameron's edits were helping improve the article, once I understood what he was trying to, but I guess lists of dead people are a bit of an emotional trigger for some people. Mish (talk) 16:51, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Seeing this made me think of this article - do we have any idea how to make it flow better? --Cameron Scott (talk) 11:55, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Violence against LGBT people by LGBT people

The article as it currenlty stands polarizes the issue, by suggesting that all violence against LGBT people is by non LGBT people, when in some cases the abuser and victim are both of the LGBT group.

--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 04:10, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Caesar, my apologies for reverting your earlier edits to this talk page. I somehow misread them as edits to the article itself and wouldn't have reverted them if I'd been paying proper attention. That said, I'll just note that I agree with the gist of what you say above, although I don't necessarily agree that the article polarizes the issue. Also, the CBC article you linked makes no mention of the sexual orientation of any of the players. For the item to fit with the title of this article, the victim would have to be reliably sourced as LGBT. Rivertorch (talk) 05:23, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

• A most notable case involved a bisexual women who killed her boyfriend, by becoming involved with a lesbian woman,Bisexual Girlfriend found guilty of axe murder

I will try to find another link. The fact as you say that the CBC does not make mention of the sexual orientation, (while other sites do) shows how censorship of this situation is quite prominent in North America, or at least Canada...

[http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2009/12/03/12029566.html Guilty verdict in lesbian axe murder ]

This article in the Toronto Sun makes mention of a lesbian, (the CBC report states same sex. Another article title refers to a bi-sexual woman. (good case study for political correctness ?)

Toronto woman in court in bisexual love-triangle murder case

This article must remove gender or orientation biases.

--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 05:50, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

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