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George Blackmore

George Blackmore (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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There are multiple "George Blackmores" who played cricket, but the only reference I can find to this specific individual is the cited reference at Cricket Archive. The coverage there is very superficial, so to me he does not satisfy the basic criteria of WP:PEOPLE: "If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be needed to prove notability; trivial coverage... may not be sufficient." Rnickel (talk) 17:23, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• Keep per WP:CRIN, as the player played first class cricket. I accept the argument put forward by the nominator, however with Cricket Archive (and CricInfo) entries, and a first class cricket career, he passes cricket player notability guidelines which satisfies me. SGGH 18:01, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Keep per WP:CRIN/WP:ATH. Has played at the highest level and therefore passes the notability criteria. The content is all verifiable through the provided source. —SpacemanSpiff 18:03, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Cricket-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 18:41, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Athletes-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 18:41, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Keep: Oh dear, how often are we going to have to do this? Keep as he has played first-class cricket, the highest level in domestic cricket. AssociateAffiliate (talk) 18:57, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Keep As a first-class cricketer. Cricinfo is a reliable source. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:31, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Keep per WP:CRIN and WP:ATH. Johnlp (talk) 20:56, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Keep If it helps, his obituary appears in the 1985 edition of Wisden Cricketers' Almanack, though admittedly it only runs to one long sentence. JH (talk page) 21:33, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Comment. I refuse to vote so here's a comment. In strict WP:CRIN terms (mostly written by me), this article has a notable subject because he did play a few first-class matches. But, really, shouldn't the cricket project be taking a step back and reconsidering which cricketers are actually notable? At the end of the day, what exactly is "notable" about someone who played in an odd match somewhere? ----Jack | 22:26, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
  • For what it is worth, I entirely agree with this. WP:CRIN is of course not a guideline. WP:CRIN shouldn't be cited as a reason to keep in an AfD. My personal view is that first-class should generally count as "fully professional" for WP:ATH but factually I know that is incorrect as much first class cricket is semi-pro or amateur. --Mkativerata (talk) 22:28, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
  • I think that's worth a great deal, Mkativerata. However, you immediately encounter difficulties when you refer to amateur first-class players because the amateurs had a peculiar status in cricket that you won't see elsewhere. Some of cricket's greatest players, one of whom was indeed its greatest-ever player, were officially amateur. The problem is a huge number of players, both amateur and professional, who appeared in only a handful of matches and could be consolidated in a single article or list, defined by period, instead of individual articles. I should have put forward this view before but I "went gone along with the flow" and now I wonder if it is time to row against the flow. ----Jack | 23:15, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
    • Indeed. I'd be worried about applying the "fully professional" standard to cricket as full professionalisation of first class cricket has been so recent. We'd lose a lot of history. I think WP:ATH ought to be applied with common sense and liberalised in highly covered sports where athletes at a high level (first class) aren't strictly professional. --Mkativerata (talk) 23:19, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
    • I think WP:ATH adequately covers the situation in cricket from the late 17th century when "amateurs" and professionals played together because they did play at the highest level and the matches were essentially professional in that the majority of players were professional. The amateurs ostensibly played for "expenses" but the world knows that WG made more money out of cricket than any "professional". ----Jack | 23:28, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Comment. As the nominator, I don't think I'm allowed to vote, but something really fundamental is being overlooked here, and I want to call attention back to it. To wit: I don't think the subject-specific guidelines such as WP:ATH and WP:CRIN are intended to supplant basic notability as in WP:BASIC; rather, they are there to raise the bar, not lower it. They are there to rule out the athlete who, despite significant secondary coverage, only played in the minors and is therefore not notable. They are not, to my mind, intended to elevate the otherwise-anonymous scrub who played one game in the majors. I hope the cricket project will take to heart the advice of Jack, above, and seriously reconsider, within the larger community of Misplaced Pages, who is generally worthy of a free-standing article. If movie buffs used the same standard you all have adopted, we'd have every bit-part walk-on with their own article, and the next thing you know, we're IMDB all over again. If these guys are already recorded for history in Cricket Archive and the like, what is the point of repeating them here? -- Rnickel (talk) 23:44, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
  • I think that is very well put, Rnickel. I was the main (probably only) author of WP:CRIN and I am uncomfortable with it. I think the author of WP:ATH should be be feeling similar discomfort. I am coming around to the idea of lists that mention those people who were the "extras" and, to be sure, I've already done it myself in terms of 18th century cricketers per List of early English cricketers to 1786 which contains details of several players that I don't think can warrant a standalone article.
  • The trouble with these votes is that a particular project becomes aware of the nomination and a herd mentality ensues. They all apply the guideline such as
• Keep first-class cricketer YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 00:23, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment. I see that in one of his appearances, Blackmore played in the same Kent team as Ames, Evans, Fagg and Wright, among others. They were undeniably first-class. Was Blackmore of the same standard or was he making up the numbers? This whole thing needs thinking about. I sense a herd mentality here. ----Jack | 00:31, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
• Comment. I'm not going to !vote here either, because I'm probably guilty of creating a few stubs of this type and I'd like to see where this AFD ends up, but I will make this point: when it comes to players such as Blackmore with very few appearances who have died, I always check to see if Wisden bothered with an obituary; if they didn't then I don't create the article. All I will say on this case is, Wisden did bother... to type one measly sentence. Undecided. — AMBerry (talk) 00:47, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Reply. I think there must be a principle around sources in addition to the name in the scorecard. As you say, if Wisden or another good source ascribes some notability to a player, then he must be notable. But I have grave doubts about people whose names appear in just one or two scorecards only. ----Jack | 08:58, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

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