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This article was nominated for deletion on 15 February 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

view · edit Frequently asked questions To view the response to a question, click the link to the right of the question. Summary of this FAQ A large number of these questions are relating to the term creation myth, its meaning and its proper usage in this article. Creation myth is a formal and proper term used by a wide range of academics and scholars (religious and secular) to define a supernatural account of how life, Earth and everything in general came into existence. This term does not imply falsehood unlike the way that the informal use of the word myth can. Misplaced Pages:WTA#Myth and Legend clearly states that myth in its informal sense should not be used but also clearly states that we should treat all faiths and beliefs the same (e.g. Not referring to a Christian belief on the one hand and a Hindu myth on the other). Thus all faiths' creation myths are referred to as such in their respective articles as well. Misplaced Pages:RNPOV states "editors should not avoid using terminology that has been established by the majority of the current reliable and notable sources on a topic out of sympathy for a particular point of view, or concern that readers may confuse the formal and informal meanings." This is also the main thrust of WP:NOT#CENSORED. Q1: What is the definition of creation myth? A1: Creation myth is a widely accepted term that has a precise definition that is "a supernatural story or explanation that describes the beginnings of humanity, earth, life, and the universe (cosmogony), often as a deliberate act by one or more deities." Since there is a consensus among reliable sources on this definition, it is used here for the purpose of accuracy and proper word use. Q2: Why do we use creation myth to describe the subject, even if it might offend readers or conflict with their beliefs? A2: The term creation myth is used for reasons related to scholarship and research, not out of a desire to offend the feelings or beliefs of Misplaced Pages's readers. While some readers, especially those not familiar with the scholarly terminology referenced when using the term creation myth, might take offense at seeing this subject called a creation myth, Misplaced Pages should not be rewritten just so that certain readers will be more comfortable. The goal in writing the article is to be as neutral and dispassionate in describing this subject, but, as with any contentious topic, it is sometimes not possible to accommodate everyone's feelings while writing a neutral, accurate, verifiable, and sourced-based reference work. Further information: WP:RNPOV Q3: Isn't calling this a creation myth the same thing as calling it a fairy tale, since that is one of the informal definitions for the word myth? A3: No. The term creation myth is a coherent term in its own right that should not be parsed into separate words. The term has a unique meaning different from the informal definitions of the word myth. Just as an electoral college is not an institute of higher learning even though it contains the word college, a creation myth is not necessarily a fairy tale even though it contains the word myth. Formally defined terms provide unambiguous meaning that aid in the presentation of a more accurate and scholarly encyclopedic article. Further information: WP:WTA § Myth and Legend Q4: Does this article say or imply that Genesis is not literally true? And if so, is that neutral? A4: The viewpoint that Genesis is literally true is held by only a tiny minority of sources. Misplaced Pages's neutrality policy does not say that articles must "give equal validity" to such views (see WP:GEVAL). In writing this article it also becomes necessary to proceed with some implicit assumptions that many readers are bound to find controversial (see WP:MNA). Q5: Why does the article name have "narrative" rather than "myth"? A5: This has been discussed several times, and there has not been sufficient consensus to change the name of the article. See also Creation Myth Creationism Bible References http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/creation+myth http://www.thefreedictionary.com/creation+myth http://www.stenudd.com/myth/mythlogics2.htm http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O69-Creation.html http://school.discoveryeducation.com/lessonplans/programs/bookofgenesis/

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Requested move

It has been proposed in this section that Genesis creation narrative be renamed and moved to Creation according to Genesis. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

] → Creation according to Genesis — The article was the most Stable under this name, Secondly if the first thing we have to say in the introduction is a defense of how "it is neutral"; than odds are it is not neutral. Weaponbb7 (talk) 17:44, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Notified Projects: Religion Atheism Christianity Judaism Islam Mythology Interfaith Admin Notice Board Bible

'In this Discussion Please dont use Straw man Arguments, they insult both the User writing them and the Users Reading them'

* Support The article was the most Stable under this name, Secondly if the first thing we have to say in the introduction is a defense of how "it is neutral"; than odds are it is not neutral Current title seems to be a POV-push of how it is just myth; whether or not it is a myth or not in academia. It is unacetable to label something held as sacred to half the world (Jew+Christian+Muslim), This is not Censorship but common sense. The instability of This article since i think an acceptable middle ground would run something like

Weaponbb7 (talk) 17:44, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• OPPOSE "Creation according to Genesis" implies reality, it is inaccurate and in disharmony with other articles about other creation myths. This article is not religious propaganda. We have already discussed this at great length and we will not have a small minority of editors force their ideology down everybody's throats. · CUSH · 18:40, 25 March 2010 (UTC).

According to Genesis is just what it is. if people want to take Genesis and take it as literal fact that is their prerogative. Weaponbb7 (talk) 18:48, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Cush, I think you're shying at shadows - does anyone think "Creation according to the Rig Veda" would imply acceptance of the Vedas as history or fact? PiCo (talk) 04:22, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support - It's high time this POV-pushing sham of a title was put out of its misery and restored with something more sensible and less partisan. The current title was only chosen for the sake of its offensiveness value. I think the few editors who insisted on this title have already received all the mileage reward they're ever going to get, hope they enjoyed it. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:53, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• OPPOSE Why does Christian-judeo religious belief deserve special treatment? The genesis creation myth clearly meets the definition on the Myth page of wikipedia as a "sacred myth". We haven't gone around changing Greek Mythology to something like "Heros and gods according to ancient Greeks". Christian Mythology refers to this as one of a body of myths. Myth: "academic use of the term generally does not pass judgment on its truth or falsity". Myth: "a myth is a religious narrative explaining how the world and humankind came to be in their present form" -- the term is neutral from an encyclopedic perspective. If this is changed, then the Myth article needs to be changed to say something like "Myth means that the story is false". I don't think you'll find a source on that to use as a reference! Reboot (talk) 19:03, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, theologians have never agreed on a scholarly definition of "myth", and it is a complete fiction to pretend that they ever have. (Sources.) Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 19:48, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Not sure why that is important. I'm fairly sure anthropologists and archaeologists would use the term quite casually. What's your point? Reboot (talk) 02:08, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I thought your point was that this was a supposedly 'formal' definition, and my point is that there has never been any such thing as an agreed 'formal' definition. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 13:39, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose The moved to Genesis creation myth first passed 7 weeks ago (Talk:Genesis creation myth/Archive 6#Requested move .28as a way to resolve every reasonable concern.29) and was reaffirmed in this exact same request 4 weeks ago (Talk:Genesis creation myth/Archive 6#Reinstate article.27s original and title.22 Creation According to Genesis). WP:LETGO Currently comes to mind. It's time that this discussion be left and everyone move on.--Labattblueboy (talk) 19:14, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Labattblueboy, Observe the Archives since beginning of of those 7 weeks the past seven weeks have generated more controversy than any all the other section of the archive combined.Weaponbb7 (talk) 19:27, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Indeed I am aware. I went through the discussion and saw no indication that consensus has changed and frankly, I am really not a fan of seeing multiple move requests in a short periods of time. Its sets a poor precedence for people inputting request repeatedly until their desired result is achieved. You will find that my positions is quite consistent in such cases, wherein I will support moves if consensus has changed or been formed and oppose when move request are continuously hammered. I should note that I am certainly open to changing my position if consensus is clearly shown to be 'Creation according to Genesis'. My opposition is entirely based on a procedural motivation.--Labattblueboy (talk) 19:35, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

You call this consensus? I'd hate to see a page you thought didn't have one!EGMichaels (talk) 19:47, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm not the one who makes the call one way or the other. All I can say is that two different admins, who are both extremely active in the requested move area, thought so.--Labattblueboy (talk) 20:01, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the last admin had the same reaction I did -- there was no consensus and a third title should be found. I then tried to bring folks together to brainstorm for a third title and was gamed beyond anything I've ever seen on Misplaced Pages.EGMichaels (talk) 21:22, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I believe I could support Genesis creation story. Yes, it breaks with the mold of most articles but I think it's a good compromise in alleviating the deadlock.--Labattblueboy (talk) 03:21, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support The move to Genesis creation myth was out of line with the umbrella content of the article and has proven to be highly disruptive and POV. Although I do see the benefit of a Genesis creation myth article as a study of Genesis in relation to ancient near eastern myth, within the literary genre of myth -- the very people promoting the title "Genesis creation myth" are the same people who oppose limiting the article to that genre. Since the advocates of "Genesis creation myth" cannot limit the content of the article to that subject, we should return the article to its previous NPOV title.EGMichaels (talk) 19:20, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support There was nothing wrong with "Creation according to Genesis." It's clear, descriptive and perfectly neutral. Why use the loaded word "myth" in the title of this article, where it will be misunderstood and viewed as provocative by many readers? The technical term "creation myth" should be introduced in the body of the article where its neutral scholarly intent can be made crystal clear.--agr (talk) 20:26, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Weak Support I've always been uncomfortable with the "myth" language. I would prefer "Creation according to the Book of Genesis" b/c I think "Genesis" alone is a little ambiguous. But the proposed title is better than the current title. NickCT (talk) 20:32, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Abstain—votes belong to sources not editors—I choose to represent Julius Wellhausen, who says Genesis 2 is myth and Genesis 1 is not. But Julius and I graciously conceed that a vote of Misplaced Pages editors is more likely to establish what will help readers better than stuff written in books. Alastair Haines (talk) 21:24, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

But they're both Creation Myths (as defined as a religious account of the creation of life, the earth, universe etc...) hence why the title is appropriate. Nefariousski (talk) 23:20, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

On behalf of Julius Wellhausen, I can pass on that he has changed his mind, he wrote in 1878 that Genesis 1 is "sober reflection" but that Genesis 2 and 3 are "marvel and myth", but he is willing to change his mind since Nefariousski must know better than he does. :)) Alastair Haines (talk) 06:24, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support - "myth" carries a negative connotation. JFW | T@lk 21:34, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Strong Support When terminology used by regular people and academics don't match, the rule on Misplaced Pages is to use the common term. All of the arguments that "myth" isn't dismissive of the account may be true, in an academic context. But that isn't relevant. Story and account are neutral terms, which do not have either a denotation or a connotation which favors one side of the question of the account's historicity. I would be willing to compromise with either Genesis creation account or Genesis creation story, but Genesis creation myth is intentionally and unnecessarily incendiary. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 21:38, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Abstain—which has the advantage that one can do it multiple times—this time I represent the Oxford English Dictionary, which I'm reliably informed isn't permitted sufferage at Misplaced Pages, unless an editor chooses to give it a voice.

myth 1. A purely fictitious narrative usually involving supernatural persons, actions, or events, and embodying some popular idea concerning natural or historical phenomena.

Alastair Haines (talk) 21:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Alastair Haines, i dont think any one hear is debating whether it is a creation myth, but whether it is necessary to be in the title. As an anthropologist i agree its the Genre but lets be it as the Genre and not as the title. Weaponbb7 (talk) 22:11, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Dear Weaponbb7, I am personally sympathetic to your proposal, but my opinion is irrelevant. I have simply attempted to give votes to the OED and Julius Wellhausen, who clearly agree with you that the current title is deficient. However, I'm still running around as fast as I can, listening to dead people who can speak intelligently to support your alternative title. Julius does call Genesis 1 and 2-3 "accounts" (at least in the English translation). Julius writes so lucidly and lyrically that I'm charmed away from listening to others. Must go, the dead are clamouring to be heard. Alastair Haines (talk) 22:23, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support a move to a neutral name without a POV problem. Grantmidnight (talk) 22:29, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose, with alternatives okay. "Creation Myth" is a standard term, with quite an anthropological pedigree. And it can be used for verifiable events, so long as it refers to a ritualized, collective imagination of how they happened. See, for example: "The scientific culture is no exception; we have our own scientific creation myth called cosmology" . Still Genesis creation account or something similar sounds just peachy, too.--Carwil (talk) 22:37, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support-ish—grrr, I forbid anyone to count this as a vote—Genesis creation account, Genesis creation narrative and Genesis creation story seem deficient as alternative titles for this topic. Too many scholars doubt that what is being offered in the early chapters of Genesis is simply an account or narrative of creation. The Sabbath thingy, for one, has everything to do with what people actually do, rather than merely what might have happened. And some people still get married don't they? If people want this article to discuss creation in Genesis, then that is what it should be called (and it covers more and less than Genesis 1-2). If people want it to discuss Genesis chapters 1 and 2, then that is a rather odd division of the book, since chapters 2 and 3 are married to one another. Why Creation according to Genesis, when in is shorter than according to, and implies somewhat less? Alastair Haines (talk) 22:42, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Alastair, thanks for your vote. Seriously, though, how is "story" anything but neutral? If anything, it can be seen as meaning something made up. It certainly doesn't imply that it happened, even if you think "account" would. I think Genesis creation story is probably the best choice. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 23:13, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Noooo! Dat no vote! Yukyyy! The OED says: "Lisa is right, story is neutral, myth is not." The only problem is Julius Wellhausen and others think Gen 2ff are a story, involving borrowings from other myths, BUT (and it's a big but) Gen 1 is a "sober reflection". Not only that, "image of God", "Sabbath", "original sin", "marriage", etc. go beyond a mere alleged account of an alleged creation, in the view of many scholars. Perhaps, although Julius might not agree with Lisa, most other scholars would: "story" is a richer word than account, permitting "morality play"-type interpretations. Lisa may understand better than other editors here that Genesis is more about telling people how to understand the now rather than the then. I guess that does make it a story, but other editors might not be interested in those story parts, just the parts that are about creation, which they think are an alleged (and demonstrably false) narrative. Alastair Haines (talk) 23:33, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• • Strongly Support BOTH #1 Creation in Genesis; #2 Creation according to Genesis. But to my honored colleague Alasair Haines I must say, drat it! While you were writing your above thesis proposing the dropping of "according to," I was writing my below thesis supporting it. Why have none of us proposed Creation in Genesis 'ere now? It's painful to admit that it has never occurred to me.

(1) Both Creation in Genesis and Creation according to Genesis avoid unnecessary specificity such as "myth," "account," "narrative," "Gen. 1-2," "Gen. 1-11," etc.

(2) Weaponbb7 's proposal, "According to", still is a great choice. It is not even marginally POV. It is truth neutral, as is Creation in Genesis. It simply means "As stated or indicated by." The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene is a gnostic gospel not recognized as scripture by any Christian group; yet, no one objects to the prepositional phrase "According to" in its title. Christianity still accepts the title "The Gospel According to John" and it continues to be printed in many versions of the New Testament─even though many modern scholars disclaim its authorship by John. "Creation according to Genesis" is simply a good way of saying "Creation as reported by (or in) the Book of Genesis." It carries no connotation of validity. The "reputation" rests with the word "Genesis" and whatever the reader may believe about the creation narratives. But "myth" in any form carries a highly significant connotation of falsity─disclaimers notwithstanding. We collectively have wasted so much time arguing about "myth" and who has it helped? We are not writing a refereed academic journal article. We are supposedly writing for the "average reader." No one has been able to show that "myth" to the average reader does NOT mean "purely fictitious narrative."

(3) "Creation according to Genesis" was the title of the Wiki article until late 2009. It was when creation "myth" became an even more virulent Talk page issue that a very few editors decided not only to prevent any quashing of the phrase in the opening paragraph, but to put it into flashing neon lights in the "title" so that anyone offended by the term in conjunction with Genesis would be thoroughly outraged. I can think of no more neutral a title than "Creation in Genesis" with "Creation according to Genesis" a very close second.

(4) John Walton, Wheaton graduate professor of Old Testament and Ph.D. from Hebrew Union College, says: "We sometimes label certain literature as 'myth' because we do not believe that the world works that way. The label becomes a way of holding it at arm's length so as to clarify that we do not share that belief." That's hardly NPOV.

(5) This all started with a move to demythologize the article (dropping "myth" from anywhere but perhaps a footnote). I was among that group. My impression today is that the non-mythers have made a huge compromise and backed off from that stance, agreeing with "myth" being listed as an a.k.a., but not in the title. It would be so nice if the "myth group" would conciliate and meet halfway. ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 23:38, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

How very astute and irenic, good Sir! It's a pity we don't have your words on the very great quality of Lisa's proposal. If we are to extend some kind of literary classification to the title, "story" seems exactly the right word to me. But if we can't all feel that we have something good to say, perhaps it is best we say nothing at all. CiG or CatG would be the way to go: "creation" first word as some people are more interested in creation de re, rather than Genesis de dicto.

Perhaps I shouldn't throw even more dust in the air, but I'm not even sure "creation" is the best word. More precise terminology would be: "origins", "beginnings", brshit (Hebrew), "archeology" (Greek), "genesis" (Latin). "Creation" is inherently POV imo, because the English language assumes the monotheism associated with the Judeo-Christian God, Yahweh. "Creation" implies an agent: "created by ..." Indeed, this is precisely what scholars identify as the radical demythologizing of Genesis 1: how is "the Beginning" to be understood? As the unilateral direct creative purpose and action of Yahweh. That is the first sentence of Genesis. Alastair Haines (talk) 23:55, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Now, now, now my dear academicians. Let's not overly confuse the fake scholasticism with real educated wit! ;-) Granted, bereshit is the title in Hebrew and not bara, but the subject matter of origins here falls pretty well into the more specific subject of "creation" rather than simply "beginning." I've been looking for that third alternative for a full month now, and Alastair has been the first to give one that avoids all the words both sides love to hate: I LOVE "Creation in Genesis." Bravo! Poli kala, ha chaver sheli.EGMichaels (talk) 01:39, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support. It's pretty much been stated before; I agree that "mythology" is a POV violation. It has been brought up that "Genesis" may also have to be unambiguated, so a possible title may be "Creation according to Book of Genesis" or something like that. Backtable _{Speak to me} 01:25, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment: Backtable's proposal is a good condensing to a potentially workable consensus. Maybe I need to take a little away from other things I've proposed, though. Reference to the whole Book of Genesis might give a little too much scope, and dilute our focus. Creation in the prologue to Genesis is my best refinement of Backtable's excellent suggestion to disambiguate the Genesis part of the title. EGM's points are also taken on board here. "Creation" simply is an unavoidable term. Alastair Haines (talk) 02:08, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose': The term creation myth is the standard (and hence neutral) term. This has been demonstrated with reliable sources (many of Oxford's reference works like their Dictionary of the Bible, Encyclopedia Britannica, and relevant experts affirming what is mainstream as opposed to cherry picking sources that simply do not use the term) ad nauseum on these talk pages, including two previous Requested Moves. In light of that, allow me to point to the archives instead of retyping all of that again, though by request I'm happy to dig them out again. Some important notes: This RM presents no new information from the past two RM's. Editors who participated in the last two RM's should be notified about this RM. Many of the support votes above wreak of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Lofty "It's POV" claims (presumably a violation of a neutral POV) tied to support votes without supporting reason or reliable sources should be discarded as a waste of bandwidth. Ben (talk) 04:08, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

What does it matter that it's the standard academic term? Misplaced Pages needs to be understandable to the average reader. Everyone understands "story". You know that the average reader doesn't understand "myth" the way academics do. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 04:29, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

"Misplaced Pages needs to be understandable to the average reader." For once I find myself supporting Lisa - will wonders never cease. PiCo (talk) 04:33, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Lisa, the problem is not so much that "the average reader" doesn't "understand" myth the way academics do, but rather that the editors promoting the use of the term do not use it in the way academics do. In the archives are reams and reams of arguments on the falsehood of Genesis. When pressed to give any example on any subject in which the term myth would NOT mean "false", Ben slapped me with an ANI for being unreasonable! Even after I gave an example of how several academics (Tolkien and Lewis) used the term in a pivotal conversation (in which Lewis converted to Christianity precisely BECAUSE it was myth), Ben et al were still not able to follow my lead. Given that the editors promoting the use of the term "myth" are not only unable to use it in an academic sense, and even accused me of being unreasonable for requesting such an academic sense, they can no longer be taken as credible promoters of said "academic" sense. I do know that Alastair is capable of using the term in this way, as is Afa Prof. But then, they are academics in real life (and don't just play it on WikiTV).EGMichaels (talk) 11:46, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Curious, EGM, that's a very long way of saying "Lisa is right". I'm surprised at PiCo's surprise at supporting Lisa: she's made some of the briefest and best contributions to this discussion imo. But I'm new here, forgive me. Alastair Haines (talk) 12:34, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

No, Lisa's not "right"; Lisa is "quite right." Just wanted to add a bit there! There is an irony here: those who can use "myth" in a non prejudicial way are also able to use synonyms instead. Those who demand to use the term myth, however, are clearly doing so because they are trapped in a prejudicial use. Those who claim an academic use, then, are clearly not doing so precisely because of their adamant refusal to consider anything else. This isn't the ASV, and we aren't stuck with some rigid concordance here.EGMichaels (talk) 14:05, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure the editors here appreciate your speculation into their motives. --King Öomie 15:10, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

King, take a look at that pointless ANI Ben hurled at me and see the repeated arguments that "well, it's not fact." And the "unreasonableness" Ben was accusing me of? Uh, asking for any example on any subject in which "myth" is used for something that is not false. That's not speculation on my part. It was hurled in my teeth on the ANI. You can't cram something down someone's throat and then accuse him of "speculation" when they gag on it.EGMichaels (talk) 17:00, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Not to mention the sock puppet crap Weaponbb7 (talk) 20:29, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Hey, whatever works, right? I haven't seen much of Deadtotruth after that. And to be honest, I haven't been so motivated myself.EGMichaels (talk) 20:41, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

@Ben Tillman-what case would you make for naming this article "Genesis creation myth" when neither of the sources you've listed above (Oxford's Dictionary of the Bible and Encyclopedia Britannica) refer to it by name as the "Genesis creation myth" or even contain the phrase? Although they do describe the story as a "creation myth" they do not refer to it by that name, and the reader entering that search term is "redirected" to articles with alternative titles. I've checked the Columbia Encyclopedia--same result: no use of the phrase "Genesis creation myth". Professor marginalia (talk) 17:53, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

This article's topic does not have a name, so mainstream reference works will simply offer a description of what they're talking about. How exactly they phrase that description will obviously vary according to editorial constraints, preferences, and so on, however one thing the mainstream references do agree on is the descriptor creation myth. Our article title (description) must be consistent with other mainstream reliable sources (NPOV) up to terminology used, not word order. The current title satisfies this. As an added bonus, this article title is consistent with our other similar articles, including the main creation myth article, which is undoubtedly helpful to our readers and editorially sound. It's easy to find sources that use the exact phrase "Genesis creation myth" (I was recently reading Tree of Souls and it had no problem using that phrase), but this completely misses the point: this article's topic does not have a name. Ben (talk) 01:35, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

It isn't referred to as proper name, but it is commonly referred to by a handful of terms that are very close to a "name". The Tree of Souls probably isn't the best representative of "common usage". The book is about myth, Jewish myth, and every page in it talks about one myth after another taken from the Hebrew texts, almost none of them besides this one will have "myth" in the article here in Misplaced Pages. Using this book as a guide, why not Genesis flood myth instead of Noah's Ark, Myth of Enoch instead of Enoch (Biblical figure), Myths of the Messiah instead of Messiah, and the Exodus myth instead of The Exodus. (Notice again-no redirects because nobody talks this way. I will say that "Genesis creation myth", like these, is an atypical usage for most contexts--that makes it awkward to use in most sentences). Professor marginalia (talk) 03:31, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support. The present title is leading to confusion and instability. Incidentally, Genesis 1-2 is only one of a number of places where the Hebrew Bible deals with creation - it might be more inclusive if the title were Creation according to the Hebrew Bible. PiCo (talk) 04:15, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Regarding PiCo's point, it's beyond the Hebrew Bible. For example, Gen 14:19; 14:22; Deut 32:6; Eccl 12:1; Isaiah 27:11, 40:28, and {{Bibleref2-nb|Isa|43:15}. Several New Testament passages also affirm the Genesis 1-2 creation narratives: Rom 1:25; Col 3:10; 1 Pet 4:19, and others. They are affirmed by Jesus in the Gospels of Matthew19:4 and Mark10:6. Not only is it a creation account, narrative, story, and anything creation myth might represent, Genesis is the beginning of the development of the doctrine of creation to the Christian faith. According to "The doctrine of creation" in The Cambridge Companion to Christian Doctrine, "among all the theologies, myths and theories, Christian theology is distinctive in the form and content of its teaching. It is credal in form, and this shows that the doctrine of creation is not something self-evident or the discovery of disinterested reason, but part of the fabric of the Christian response to revelation." The Apostles' Creed, recited in thousands of Christian churches every Sunday, begins: "I believe in God the Father, maker of Heaven and Earth." That foundational theology comes from Genesis. ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 05:11, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm very impressed with PiCo's ability to both to modify his position slightly in response to other opinions, and more importantly to extend the proposal in a direction that allows key reliable sources to be recruited to help us give readers a complete picture. Like PiCo and AFA Prof01 I agree we could helpfully expand the article, without it becoming unwieldly, by incorporating scholastic analysis of the well-known Genesis passages alongside a substantial but very countable and finite set of "creation and myth" related passages in Hebrew Bible and New Testament. I lean more towards PiCo's suggestion, because extending to the New Testament means we'd be inclusive of Christians, but exclusive of Muslims and Mormons. Expanding to incorporate those movements would make this article cumbersome.

Perhaps some of the boffins here could allay any concerns the rest of us might have, by giving a list of the "creation and myth" related passages most pertinent to addressing the issues most readers would be interested in regarding the first few chapters of Genesis. I do remember once personally finding very helpful, scholastic examination of various Psalms and Job in comparison and contrast with Genesis and the surviving ANE literature.

I'm also particularly keen to hear back from editors opposed to the current proposal. I want to ensure that we have heard them clearly, that we are all aware of the sources they cite in support of their position, and that every possible attempt is made to reach a common mind, rather than a "lowest common denominator" compromise. If they're not very active, I may take up their cause, as best I can, to ensure we don't crowd out important sober criticisms in the current, apparently rather one-way direction this discussion seems to be going.

But to be very specific just now, AFA Prof01, Sir, how do you feel about keeping things to just the Hebrew Bible? Alastair Haines (talk) 12:28, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Whether the article discusses only references in Hebrew scriptures, or includes references from scriptures Christian, Mormon, Islamic or whatever should not affect the title. The primary subject of this article is still the account in Genesis. If there is an account of creation in the Bible that is not based on Genesis (and I am not aware of any) it might be mentioned as an aside here or have its own article if there is sufficient material for one. --agr (talk) 17:08, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Agreed.EGMichaels (talk) 18:29, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Alastair and agr→I'm losing track. As far as keeping things just to the Hebrew Bible, aka Old Testament, are we saying "Creation in Hebrew Bible" (or something similar)?

I agree with agr that the primary subject of this article is still the account in Genesis─which leads to the question of how much of Genesis, but if the title does not specify quantity, then we don't need to deal with that today. I also agree that the subsequent biblical, and possibly qur'anic, creation references that are clearly based on Genesis can be handled in their own sections within the article, or in their own articles given sufficient material─also a future decision. In principle, I am amenable to most any title proposals that refer to Genesis or Hebrew, sans "myth" or any variation of that term. I also accept your concern about "creation" moving to "origin" or other more neutral synonym.

Re: New Testament. In re-thinking my initial objection and the comments that followed, I withdraw my objection to PiCo's idea. My hope is that the agreed-upon title neither demeans nor denigrates post-Genesis OT or NT references and quotes back to the Genesis accounts. Thanks! ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 23:48, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

OPPOSE "Creation myth" can't be parsed out into "Creation" and "myth", electoral college doesn't equal a university where people study elections etc... Formal / informal etc... (it's all in the FAQ) Not to mention policy support is overwhelming for current title.

• WP:WTA#Myth and Legend

(relevent sections) "Formal use of the word is commonplace in scholarly works, and Misplaced Pages is no exception...be consistent; referring to "Christian beliefs" and "Hindu myths" in a similar context may give the impression that the word myth is being used informally." Being that the usage of "Creation Myth" in articles (and their titles) about creation myths is near unanimous across different belief systems changing this convention for Judeo-Christian related articles violates the word and spirit of WP:WTA. A sample of the other articles are as follows:

Chinese creation myth

Sumerian creation myth

Ancient Egyptian creation myths

Pelasgian creation myth

Tongan creation myth

Mesoamerican creation myths

Creation Myth

Keeping in mind that this isn't a case of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS since WP:WTA makes a specific example for uniform usage and the usage of "Creation Myth" is clearly the dominant usage for Religious and Supernatural cosmogenical articles.

• WP:RNPOV

Usage of "Creation Myth" is clearly in line with this policy. The policy states "Misplaced Pages articles on history and religion draw from a religion's sacred texts as well as from modern archaeological, historical, and scientific sources." The latter three almost unanimously use the term "Creation Myth" while the first describes it as a historical fact (which we should not use for a myriad of reasons that I'm sure everyone reading this understands).

At best if any reliable sources can be found that are critical of usage of the term "Creation Myth" (not myth as a stand alone since the Electoral College can not be classified as a College any more than definitions of myth, particularly the informal/colloquial definitions can be applied to the term "Creation Myth") a section disucssing this criticism should be added to the article and the main Creation Myth article but shouldn't contradict usage of the term per "Some adherents of a religion might object to a critical historical treatment of their own faith because in their view such analysis discriminates against their religious beliefs. Their point of view must be mentioned if it can be documented by notable, reliable sources, yet note that there is no contradiction."

Per the section that states "Several words that have very specific meanings in studies of religion have different meanings in less formal contexts, e.g. fundamentalism and mythology. Misplaced Pages articles about religious topics should take care to use these words only in their formal senses in order to avoid causing unnecessary offense or misleading the reader." editors of this article have, in good faith, created a FAQ, cited formal definitions, wikilinked to the main Creation myth article (which also has a detailed formal definition) and added a footnote to the the term "Creation Myth" to further clarify formal usage. All of which meet and possibly exceed the due diligence required to ensure that the formal meaning is understood.

• WP:UCN

Usage of "Creation Myth" in the title has been furthermore contested after the first article RM, another RM was started about a week later to remove the term from the title, that RM also was declined and closed (albeit with some arguement and complaint regarding it possibly being closed too soon). UCN tells us "Articles are normally titled using the most common English-language name of the subject of the article. In determining what this name is, we follow the usage of reliable sources, such as those used as references for the article", considering the vast majority of cited sources including archaelogical, scientific, historical and other scholarly/academic writings use the term "Creation Myth" as opposed to other colloquial variants the title meets UCN.

Furthermore the usage of "Creation Myth" abounds in reliable sources doing a quick google search shows that its use clearly meets the "common usage" section of UCN "Common usage in reliable sources is preferred to technically correct but rarer forms, whether the official name, the scientific name, the birth name, the original name or the trademarked name"

UCN also tells us "Where articles have descriptive titles, they are neutrally worded. A descriptive article title should describe the subject without passing judgment, implicitly or explicitly, on the subject. " alternatives such as "Story" or "account" imply value judgements regarding veracity one way or the other (Story most often being defined as fiction, account commonly being used in factual / historical context). Additionally changing the name causes a loss of precision (also discussed in UCN) since "Creation Myth" is the formally defined academic term and as such doesn't allow for any ambiguity (only one definition) whereas other alternatives do.

Some editors have brought up different variants of google tests that show "Creation Story" or some other suggestion to have more "hits" than usage of "Creation Myth" again we look to UCN for guidance and see "Titles which are considered inaccurate descriptions of the article subject, as implied by reliable sources, are often avoided even though it may be more common. For example, Tsunami is preferred over the more common, but less accurate Tidal wave." which tells us that accuracy should value accuracy above hit counts when colloquial and non-arcane formal terms are in consideration for a article name.

• WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV

Using terms and phrases such as Creation account/story or Creation according to... Violate NPOV policy since they either provide a value judgement regarding the veracity of the creation myth in question or they assume that there is only one interpretation of the creation myth (in the account of "Creation according to Genesis". Being that even amongst religious circles significant interpretation and variation of Genesis exists usage of language like "according to", which implies a single interpretation invalidates alternative interpretations or opens the door for a myriad of alternative articles like "Creation according to Genesis (Mormon Interpretation)" et, al...

• WP:NOT#CENSORED

Included for reasons already stated and re-stated above

Nefariousski (talk) 23:18, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Apart from UCN those refer to article content not title. UCN actually supports the move to a neutral title.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 23:47, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

• SUPPORT move, per user agr and WP:UCN. A title such as myth is telling people what to believe, an encyclopedia needs to be neutral.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 23:47, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

• oppose. There's nothing terribly wrong with "creation according to Genesis", but if people are going to write (and read) an encyclopedia they ought to learn what "myth" means in a scholarly context. The use of the word has nothing to do with whether the story is true or false. --Akhilleus (talk) 00:32, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment: Akhilleus — I don't think Misplaced Pages has a mission to promote "scholarly" terms. The purpose of a title is to identify an article. Within the body of the article is ample space to wax eloquent on the "scholarly" use of the word myth in relation to the subject of the article. But "myth" is not an indispensable term to the basic purpose of identifying the subject of the article. Bus stop (talk) 10:40, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose: this title is neutral in that all creation myths share the same format. There is no policy-based reason for this one, or any of them, to be different. I see a lot of "I don't like it" and "it makes people uncomfortable" but no arguments based on policy. Auntie E. (talk) 00:42, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment: I've gone through the exercise of summarising arguments for and against. It seems to me that what is claimed above is close to the truth: we are getting to the point that there is little new information (see Ben's comment). The basis of conflict is clear and the relevant policy is cited by both sides and claimed in support of both positions: all points of view from the neutral point of view--WP:NPoV. The question, according to people who've posted so far, is: whether formal use of the word "myth" (see WP:WTA#Myth and Legend) in the title presents Genesis as "purely fictitious", according to the common usage of the word, which would certainly be PoV, or whether failure to use the word in this formal sense would introduce a PoV treatment of Genesis in comparison with the creation myths covered in other articles.

The support case boils down to insisting on WP:UCN and the oppose case boils down to insisting on WP:WTA#Myth. Personally, I think WP:WTA trumps WP:UCN (Though it should be noted that WTA does say formal senses of myth are diverse and recommends "use care to word the sentence to avoid implying that it is being used informally", emphasis added). Were that all there was to the matter, were I closing this discussion, I'd close it as proposal rejected.

However, there is, in fact, a lot of information that has not been presented in the discussion above. If we allow the oppose case to stand--"myth" in the title is the formal usage--then the applicability of that formal usage depends on reliable sources having a unanimous (or at least consensus) agreement on the applicability of the word "myth", in its formal sense, to Genesis or to some identifiable part of Genesis. If reliable sources diverge, we cannot use the formal sense without favouring those who apply myth to Genesis over those who don't.

So, to close this discussion, we must turn to reliable sources of information. The support case will be upheld if it can be demonstrated that at least a significant and notable minority of scholars consider Genesis not to be formally classifiable as myth. The oppose case will be upheld if it can be demonstrated that all but a WP:UNDUE minority of scholars consider Genesis to be myth in the formal sense of the word.

Because of my day job, I happen to know dozens of reliable sources that think Genesis is self-consciously demythologizing literature. And that doesn't even count Genesis literalists, who I don't spend much time reading. Even excluding that--I would think--rather notable group, there is sufficient scholarly opinion that Genesis is "anti-myth" or "polemical", that Misplaced Pages would look ignorant or partisan were it to title this article as though they didn't exist.

I've interacted in this thread considerably more than I intended and now I will leave it. I think editorial opinion has gone as far as it can, and nothing new will come up. It is now up to people to actually turn to reliable sources to see how they can decide the matter for us.

If anyone actually looks, they will find plenty of (non-Genesis-literalist) scholars who do not think "myth" in its formal sense is a suitable description of Genesis. Anthropologically, for example, other things, but not creation, were ritualized in ancient Israel. The formal concept of myth is absolutely important in scholastic treatment of Genesis, because, in it's day, it was the mother of all myth-busters. If you can't find the scholars who say that, you're either not looking, or you're beyond help. ;)

Best wishes to all, Alastair Haines (talk) 05:52, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Alastair WTA is about article content so how can it trump UCA which is about naming articles?--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 12:17, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

How does WTA#Article and section titles lead you to that conclusion? Alastair Haines (talk) 18:55, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I fail to see how Misplaced Pages:Words_to_avoid#Article_and_section_titles (the correct link, can be used in support of the present name, which is both much less common and widely perceived as non-neutral. I accept that it can be used by scholars in a neutral way, but frankly some of the die-hard supporters of the current name have worn WP:AGF very thin indeed, if you have been watching trhe page for any length of time. Johnbod (talk) 23:58, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

As I mention below, I agree with you John, the case for "myth" in the title is tenuous. However, I'm just trying to be fair. We can't write off WTA as dealing with content only. Also, I'm new to this discussion, so I couldn't express an opinion regarding WP:AGF even if I wanted to. Though I do find it hard to see how a vote or bad argument, offered in bad faith, needs any other treatment than being ignored. Alastair Haines (talk) 01:50, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support Though Genesis creation story or "account" are both preferable. WP:COMMONNAME trumps the "myth" policy, and the current title is in fact strikingly rare in scholarly use as an overall term, though there is no shortage of sources treating the Genesis story as a creation myth, but that is a different matter. I won't repeat the statistics on this, originally produced by D Bachmann, but they're here. Johnbod (talk) 15:48, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I would think sources that treat Genesis as a creation myth count in favour of the current title, even if they don't show up in searches on the terms "creation myth" or "Genesis creation myth". But I don't want to frustrate people I agree with any more than I already have. Thanks for this input, John. Alastair Haines (talk) 19:12, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

This discussion is about the title. Creation myth should be mentioned very early on, and linked, but that does not mean we need it as the title. Johnbod (talk) 21:50, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose but .....yech..that "note" attached to the article name needs to go! According to WP:COMMONNAME the "neutral" arguments are irrelevant. What matters is the terminology most commonly used. Using that standard, and my several very ad hoc hit counts (scoping google, google scholar, google books, the handful of online reference libraries I have access to and printed sources I've collected on the subject) to gauge common usage in reliable sources (and without the wiki padding the counts), Creation according to Genesis is the clear loser. But first is "Biblical creation story", no "myth", or Genesis creation story. Next come Genesis creation account or Biblical creation account. Both versions using "myth" fall way behind. However Creation according to Genesis is very clearly in last place. The fact that neither "Biblical creation account" or "Genesis creation account" have redirects, even while they're far more often used terms than "Genesis creation myth", is telling in itself, but having witnessed I don't know how many edit battles over pipes like ], I will say both the pro and anti "myth" fiends are scratching their own private itch and need to put the guns away and defer to sources. Give It a Rest already. Professor marginalia (talk) 06:13, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose for two major reasons. First and most important, there is much academic work to support the current title for the article as legitimate and reliable. Second, the proposed alteration flagrantly violates the same policy that others accuse the current title of violating: WP:TITLE. We are told to avoid "pedantic" titles and I don't see how Creation according to Genesis (or another fanciful concoction like Creation according to the Hebrew Bible) is anything but a contrived title masquerading as an encyclopedic effort. It's not a common reference to the myth, story, or whatever you want to call it. You can't argue against the current title by butchering the very Misplaced Pages standards you ostensibly support.UBER 04:08, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Isn't it strange then that there are so many more academic uses of the proposed title, and other alternatives, than the current one? See the stats. Johnbod (talk) 01:21, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't know to which stats you refer specifically, but I do know that the word myth is used overwhelmingly in academia to describe creation accounts for cultures throughout the world.UBER 02:57, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Summary 1

The following is a summary of comments above, irrespective who offered the comments, or how many people did. Except for comments regarding points of order (or process), comments regarding the presumed motives or attitudes or alleged behaviour of other parties have been omitted.

• Proposal: rename (and move) article
• Main issue: word "myth" in current title
• Alternative titles:

1a Creation according to Genesis, also

1b Creation in Genesis (choice of preposition);

2a Creation in prologue to Genesis, and

2b Creation in Hebrew Bible (choices of scope);

3a Genesis creation account, and

3b Genesis creation story (choices of genre designation).

• Points made to Support move:

• "myth" is not neutral (implies "purely fictitious" OED, see also WP:NPoV)
• "myth" is PoV (e.g. Julius Wellhausen thinks Gen 2 myth, Gen 1 not myth, see also WP:NPoV)
• Sense of "myth" is not ordinary English usage (OED, see also WP:UCN)
• Article history shows "myth" to have destabilized content -- verification?
• Use of "myth" in title requires explicit disambiguation in text
• Technical use of "myth" is best introduced and applied within the article
• Many scholars believe Genesis (particularly chapter 1) to be deliberately demythologizing in an ANE literary context (WP:RS and WP:NPoV)
• WP:COMMON; the current title is much less commonly found in scholarship than alternatives .

Point of order

• Recent change of title to include "myth" based on poor process

• Points made to Oppose move:

• Absence of word "myth" from title implies Genesis is factual (WP:NPoV)
• "myth" does not imply purely fictitious (see Myth)
• "myth" applicable in anthropology when there is collective ritualization
• "creation myth" is an inseperable collocation, or standard phrase (no one was there at the time)
• There are lots of "creation myth" articles at Misplaced Pages (WP:NPoV)

Points of order

• This decision has already been made
• There is no new information in this discussion -- verification?

Alastair Haines (talk) 04:36, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

edit break 1

• Comment For consistency with religious cosmology, Islamic cosmology, Hindu cosmology, Buddhist cosmology etc. the correct title for this article is Judeo-Christian cosmology. Currently we have Biblical cosmology, which is not as complete and should be merged into this article, and Christian cosmology which is a redirect to Biblical cosmology. Gandalf61 (talk) 09:47, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

  Nonsense. There is so much more to this article's topic than cosmology. This article is about the creation myth found in Genesis, that is all. Ben (talk) 23:41, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support change to Biblical cosmogony or Judeo-Christian cosmogony (after corrective moves) ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 21:30, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support change to Biblical cosmology, and merge content into that article. Excellent catch. Ἀλήθεια 14:29, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
• Comment: cool new suggestion, though it suggests a survey of all existing Genesis-Creation-Cosmology related article titles currently at Wiki wouldn't go astray in helping people consider coverage with adequate information. Alastair Haines (talk) 19:02, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
• Comment for clarification: I would be glad to assume responsibility for any searches and/or corrections or redirects should this proposal necessitate it. I very much like the idea of Cosmo...(something). In strict usage, cosmology refers to the study of the universe as it is now (or at least as it can be observed now); cosmogony refers to the study of the origins of the universe. NASA had to struggle with the terms when it conducted the Genesis Mission. (Interesting that they report no struggle with the word "Genesis" and went forth with it.) It would appear that we have some Wiki article titles that might need correction. Here is what NASA has written about it:

Cosmology is the study of the structure and changes in the present universe, while the scientific field of cosmogony is concerned with the origin of the universe. Observations about our present universe may not only allow predictions to be made about the future, but they also provide clues to events that happened long ago when...the cosmos began. So—the work of cosmologists and cosmogonists overlaps.

— http://genesismission.jpl.nasa.gov/educate/scimodule/Cosmogony/CosmogonyPDF/CosCosmolTT.pdf

• Support I don't think that "standard terms" are necessarily neutral. We say holocaust denial to indicate the widespread belief in the non-Islamic world that the Holocaust is real, and that the deniers are promoting a POV that is outside of the historical mainstream. Likewise, we speak of scientists disagreeing with the "consensus" about global warming indicating that their view is within the scientific mainstream.

• It would really help our NPOV policy if we would take pains to use neutral titles, as opposed to titles which imply support for a mainstream against a minority. Creation in the Book of Genesis is 100% neutral, in the sense that it makes no comment on whether the Book of Genesis is right or wrong.

• The whole point of neutrality is for us to step back editorially from presuming to evaluate the veracity of sources. We merely say that A said B about C. I thought this was settled way back in 2001 and 2002, but apparently there has arisen a "consensus" that we shouldn't be neutral any more lest we mislead our readers somehow into thinking that two opposing POV's have equal validity. --Uncle Ed (talk) 00:42, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

In support of what Uncle Ed is saying above, I find at WP:AVOID: "Article and section titles should be chosen, where possible, to avoid implying a viewpoint." Bus stop (talk) 01:38, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

If "myth" were being meant in a non-judgmental way, there would be no need to retain it in favor of any other other neutral synonym (or in the case of "Creation in Genesis" no synonym at all).EGMichaels (talk) 01:46, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support. I support the move from Genesis creation myth to Creation according to Genesis. The title presently on the article gratuitously carries commentary. Titles should identify subjects and go no further. The phrase "creation myth" represents a characterization of Genesis that is not intrinsic to its identity. That other articles use the term "creation myth" may or may not be justified or represent the best title for those articles. Our responsibility is to get the title right for this article. We should not rely on what in some instances may represent missteps in naming other articles. The particulars of each article should be examined individually. Bus stop (talk) 02:04, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. If you want to promote biblical literalism, or protect the tender eyes of Christians, go to conservapedia. It's a creation myth not unlike all the other creation myths and we should not give it any special place of privilege by naming it in a way that falsely implies some rational basis for believing it. —David Eppstein (talk) 15:49, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

That's a straw man argument. I don't know of anyone promoting the view you seem to oppose.EGMichaels (talk) 16:09, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. The terms "creation myth" and "creation mythology" apply ex vi termini to all religious traditions. Presuming exceptionalism for the Book of Genesis will not change either common English usage or basic Misplaced Pages policies. Keahapana (talk) 21:20, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

This isn't about exceptionalism, but about use. It is not the most common term, and in fact links in other articles require Creation according to Genesis in many places just to lure people into this article. If you have to hide behind an entirely different name just to pull readers in, why not use the functional name?EGMichaels (talk) 21:27, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out these redirects, many of which I've corrected. Keahapana (talk) 23:51, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support This move was done in stealth without fair consultation with the religious WikiProjects who contribute to this article. It's obvious from the great deal of opposition to the move, that the reason for this is because the move couldn't have possibly occurred otherwise. It's time to change the title back. Masterhomer 02:41, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

There isn't anything stealth-like in a requested move. Given the request moves results in publication at WP:RM and any relevant projects through article alerts, a wide level of notice is normally provided.--Labattblueboy (talk) 15:12, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support I agree, this title change was a strange move, and that it's time to change the title back. I have been fully convinced by Alastair Haines arguments and his use of sources to hold up his position. SAE (talk) 12:11, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose; those who think "myth" is pov are not familiar with the correct terminology. You might as well go argue for a move from Retraction to Changed my bullshit statement (per The Fugitive (1993 film) for those of you unfamiliar with that, as well.) Ignorance is no argument; nor is faith. This is not the Catholic Encyclopedia; nor is it Conservapedia - the threshold for inclusion here is verifiability, not truth, and the rationale for terminology is and should remain accuracy. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 17:00, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment: My primary argument would not be that myth is POV. My primary argument is that myth is extraneous. A title doesn't need added commentary. A title needs essential material. The purpose of a title is identifying the subject of the article. Adding the word "myth" to the title adds unnecessary commentary. No — no one said this was the Catholic Encyclopedia — except you. You are arguing against a straw man. Obviously there are those for whom the Book of Genesis is literally true. But they are not arguing for an indication of that in the title. The article is adequately identified by a title such as Creation according to Genesis. Yes — the threshold for inclusion here is verifiability. And there is adequate space within the body of the article for exploring all the verifiable material pertaining to Genesis as a "creation myth." Bus stop (talk) 20:37, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. This is a page about a creation myth found in an ancient text. Creation doesn't proceed "according" to a text, that's backwards. It's like calling Ragnarök something like Destruction according to Poetic Edda. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:11, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment: The phrase, "Creation according to Genesis," is not prescriptive; it is descriptive. The Book of Genesis describes its version of how creation came about. It is not telling us how creation should come about, or will come about. Bus stop (talk) 21:09, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment -- I think "The End of the World According to the Poetic Edda" is an interesting mental exercise that demonstrates Alastair's suggested title. "The End of the World in the Poetic Edda" simply shows a literary portion of that mythos, just as "Creation in Genesis" shows a literary portion of the biblical mythos. Readers, sources, editors, and article are completely free when discussing what the text says without embedding a value judgment within the title. Thanks for the example, Science! "The Poetic Edda End of the World Myth" is both unwieldy and unnecessary. It is more off balance than Thor's unfortunate mjolnir after Loki turned himself into a gnat and spoiled the forging of the thunder hammer. But "The End of the World in the Poetic Edda" is far superior. Perhaps we can make a small aside (while I'm offline for Pesach for the next two days) and explore the proper title for Ragnarok. OF COURSE "Ragnarok" is the best title, but only because it has such a snazzy name all to itself. Let's assume it didn't have such a cool name and come up with a different hypothetical title, using the same arguments we have been using about the present article. If a particular argument becomes recognizably silly (or unnecessary) for "Ragnarok" then we might see it easier. The first thing I would like everyone to notice, though, is that the title is not "Ragnarok myth". The "myth" is unnecessary.EGMichaels (talk) 21:24, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Poetic Edda eschatology would be the correct one since it incorporates the term in most common academic use. The parallel to something like Poetic Edda creation myth (or Book of Revelations eschatology for a needed article on the tales told in that particular book) is obvious to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ScienceApologist (talk • contribs)

• Support change. I am now convinced by the sound reasoning of Alastair Haines. It would be helpful to build out the new article on Biblical cosmogony. Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 03:35, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Friend, I like your prefered title a lot. Cosmogony specifies which parts of the Bible we are interested in conceptually, without assuming location or literary genre, nor even the kind of cosmogony—a solo creator. Those specifics we can leave to the sources. I'm rather embarrassed you attribute any reasoning to me, personally. I've tried very hard only to present the views of others, and views from quite different perspectives at that. Reasoning is something we can all do and share, it doesn't belong to any individual. But thanks anyway. Alastair Haines (talk) 13:39, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support. The word myth is misleading to the average user - most are not academics. 01:47, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment I think that Genesis creation myth is absolutely fine, as I explained in the previous section. Stop these misguided attempts to change the title.UBER 04:14, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

NOTE: SECOND VOTE Johnbod (talk) 01:21, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

What are you talking about? This is a vote on a different issue, or am I mistaken? That's the impression I was under. I cast the first vote in opposition to renaming the article Creation according to Genesis (or some other variant of that title) and the second vote in opposition to renaming the article Judeo-Christian cosmology or another similar variant.

Either way, this is not really a vote and Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. The reasoning behind my decision is more important than whether I said support, oppose, or something else.UBER 18:15, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

I've changed it to say "Comment" now.UBER 06:54, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose - the name is entirely factual. It is a myth (in both senses of the word), relating to creation, contained within Genesis 1. 81.111.114.131 (talk) 10:35, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose I'm pretty sure I've said why before - this is an encyclopedia, not a popular journal. The name is correct and we shouldn't be taking into account the sensibilities of some people, which is that the effort to make the change is doing. WP:MOSIslam is analogy where we don't cater to the sensibilities of another religious group. The article should also use some of the material in the Encyclopedia of creation myths By David Adams Leeming & Margaret Adams Leeming, if anyone can get hold of a copy. As for the average user, well, we explain it, that's what encylopedias do. Dougweller (talk) 10:57, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Doug, for actually giving a vote to a reliable source of the PoV that Genesis contains a creation myth. Scholars of comparative literature have a voice alongside those of ancient languages, biblical studies and theology. What would help more, though, is a source that makes it clear that there is no other PoV. Alastair Haines (talk) 13:10, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose - Genesis is a very broad topic, and having one article on it will (and is) leading to edit warring. Better is to have a couple of articles: one focusing on the religious aspect (Book of Genesis) and one focusing on the literary/anthropological/sociological aspect of Genesis as a creation myth in the formal sense of that term. This article should be the latter. The current name seems very accurate, and although I understand that many readers may not fully appreciate the term "creation myth" that is no reason to change the article's name. --Noleander (talk) 13:26, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

• Support - The last title was clearly much more stable. This one is a mess. If someone wants to write on the current popular view of "Genesis 1 AS as Creation Myth" then please start your own article. This article began as a description of the creation on the world as Genesis interprets/sees it. As a source that is well over 2000 years old, I believe there is reason for analyzing it as it presents itself, rather than through forcing every reader to see it through a 21st century structure/outline/category. Leave it be, and start your own elsewhere. 76.253.104.255 (talk) 20:54, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Gotcha. So what you are saying is that Creation is real and only the view on it may differ. That is an irrational, unscientific, unencyclopedic, and hence unacceptable POV that has neither a place in the article nor in its title. The position that the creation tale in Genesis has whatsoever truth about the actual origin of the world is invalid, as it is completely detached from reality due to its source in faith and subsequently only in people's minds. · CUSH · 21:30, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

You make absolutely no rational sense. Genesis is not my pov -- at all. Genesis is Genesis' own pov. don't shoot the messenger, I didn't write it. and don't get mad at me because some person/people 3000+ years ago did not feel the need to see or care whether or not Cush would vehemently disagree with their position or not. ha! fact is, genesis is a literary giant and it deserves to be analysed for it's opinion. Cush's views however, because they have not such wide renown, are just pov, no matter how much you throw your arms in the air and yell "irrational, unscientific, unencyclopedic, and hence unacceptable." 76.253.104.255 (talk) 01:17, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

As long as you just report what Genesis says there is no problem. But as soon as you make the claims expressed in Genesis the POV of Misplaced Pages you stop contributing to an encyclopedic article. · CUSH · 01:22, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Are you changing your vote Cush? "As long as you just report what Genesis says there is no problem." In which verse does it say it is a "myth"?

"As soon as you make the claims expressed in Genesis POV". So you'd be in favour of distancing the article from its subject by use of a phrase like "according to Genesis" (i.e. not according to Misplaced Pages). Alastair Haines (talk) 13:10, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Genesis IS a creation myth. Creation myth is the term for a story of the origin of the world by supernatural means. Don't tell me that the opening chapters of Genesis are anything else. Why don't you just take a look at the Creation myth article and then tell me why exactly Misplaced Pages should treat the Judeochristian creation myth differently from other creation myths. Would you do that? · CUSH · 13:50, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Dear Cush, I like you. I had a real go at you. You didn't bite back. Instead, you asked me to READ something ... much more constructive.

Impressed by that, and feeling that reading is a responsibility necessarily fulfilled before speaking I did look at Misplaced Pages's Creation myth article. I was a little disappointed, but hardly surprised. At least it could cite Encyclopædia Britannica for its own definition of "myth". However, Britannica has a less assertive, more precise and clear definition of "myth": "Symbolic narrative of the creation and organization of the world as understood in a particular tradition."

I'm not that interested in what Misplaced Pages articles say about things, because many of them depend on the opinions of Misplaced Pages editors rather than reliable sources. Misplaced Pages content is produced by a years-old ceremonial edit-war called a "proposal", at which editors cast votes rather than actually reverting one-another. Whichever side gets the most votes is deemed to have won the edit-war, unless an administrator with a different PoV jumps in to close the "discussion" first in favour of her or his own opinion. Fortunately, Wiki policy forsees this as a problem and makes it clear that Wiki itself should not count as a reliable source.

So, let's use Britannica as the basis of our original research instead. Yes! Genesis 1 most certainly is a "myth" under the definition provided by our reliable source. In fact, I particularly like Britannica's phrase "symbolic narrative". As a biblical scholar and theologian, I can confirm that this is precisely the way I understand Genesis 1. Is it now acceptable for us to retain the current title because Cush and Alastair Haines applied the Britannica definition to Genesis 1 and found a match?

Well, unfortunately it isn't, because you and I haven't published our opinion. That's not too much of a problem, because other people have published precisely the same opinion. But, the main problem is that party-poopers like biblical scholarship's own "Darwin", Julius Wellhausen have published views that distinguish Genesis 1 from myth. Partly that's because myth is being used in a slightly different way to the Britannica definition. In fact, myth is a bit of a slippery term. There's more to the story of what myth means in technical usage than Britannica can adequately summarise in a single sentence. If that were not so, why bother writing the rest of the Britannica article? Britannica provides a general all-purpose definition, trusting readers to exercise judgment in how rigidly they apply it. They are interested in giving a good description of the concept of myth, not in giving a good description of the content of Genesis.

How good is myth as a description of Genesis? We need Genesis experts familiar with myth, just as much as we need myth experts familiar with Genesis. The former actually carry more weight, because this is an article about Genesis, not about myth. Indeed myth is very much a part of understanding Genesis, according to Genesis experts, but it is a problematic term to use to describe Genesis.

To conclude. Alastair Haines agrees with Cush that Genesis is a myth (in Britannica's sense). However, because several scholars (whom I've read and some of whom I've cited), who know much more than me, see Genesis as "sober reflection myth", "anti-mythological", "demythologizing" and "polemical", I can only conclude that they would not vote in support of the current article title, which means the current title reflects only one strand within scholastic description of Genesis. It is a PoV. So, unless this is to be a PoV fork article, it should not retain the current title. As mere editors, I don't think we get sufferage, so any "vote" I cast here is merely a proxy for those to whom WP:RS actually limits sufferage. Alastair Haines (talk) 15:44, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

But does your Julius Wellhausen (whom you so inadequately call "biblical scholarship's own Darwin", which is creationist-speak) give the reasoning why Genesis is not a creation myth like all the others? How is Genesis symbolic? A symbol for what? And how can a text that so obviously recycles other creation myths not be a creation myth itself? You still fail to convey the actual arguments why the tale in the opening chapters of Genesis is not a creation myth. What exactly is there more to the story that distinguishes it from other creation myths? It's a deity performing incantation. How is that special among the plethora of stories about the deeds of gods? · CUSH · 16:40, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Now you're talking Cush! Questions, questions, questions! Great questions! Questions addressed by thousands, probably hundreds of thousands of sources. Questions that have different answers and different rationales in different sources.

This is not WikiAnswers, though. It is an encyclopedia documenting questions asked by scholars and their analyses of the issues. You're giving us an outline of the sub-topics we need to cover. Superb!

But, the best of your questions, imo, is "how can a text that so obviously recycles other creation myths not be a creation myth itself?"

The key words in that question are "obviously" and "recycles". Is recycling obvious to an untrained eye? Or do we need sources? Do they all agree?

Alastair is obviously recycling Cush's words. How can Alastairs obvious recycling possibly be saying anything other than what Cush has already said?

Alastair Haines (talk) 01:40, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

The recycling might not be obvious to the untrained eye, but then the person with the untrained eye is not supposed to participate overmuch in an encyclopedia article, right? We want experts to be our sources. But how far does expertism go when it comes to the mythical and ultimately the supernatural? What experts and reliable sources are there for the supernatural? Really hundreds of thousands? I suppose we both know the answer to that.

And as for the recycling itself, we both know that the Bible extensively recycles tales that are classified as myth in this encyclopedia and in academia. So it is only logical thet the biblical tale is itself myth, or do you assume that myth suddenly turns to something else, namely an accurate historical account, when it is told by the biblical authors?

What it comes down to, is still the question whether Biblical Creation is real. That is the only criterion that would set the Judeochristian idea of the world's origin apart from other ideas of the world's origin. · CUSH · 16:47, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

In 2001 the Conservative Movement of Judaism released a commentary stating as follows:

The most likely assumption we can make is that both Genesis and Gilgamesh drew their material from a common tradition about the flood that existed in Mesopotamia. These stories then diverged in the retelling.

So from that significant perspective, Genesis is not recycled from Gilgamesh, but parts of both go back to an original tradition. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 17:03, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Precisely, Til. This is like saying that humans are descended from chimpanzees. They are not. Both are descended from a common ancestor.EGMichaels (talk) 17:08, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

What the heck are you talking about? Have I said anywhere that Genesis were some kind of textual copy of Gilgamesh (to use the example) ? I have not said that nor even hinted at. I say that the way that YHWH is described creating the world in the opening of Genesis bears resemblance to much older traditions that the authors of Genesis have certainly read of, namely Babylonian and Sumerian creation myths. I am not so stupid as to suggest any verbatim copying, rather a copying of concepts and general stories. The Flood story is another example. Of course the details are different, but the idea is the same (and even parts of the overall story).· CUSH · 17:26, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I think it's important to understand that Genesis is its own species here. If we insist on too close a copying from Babylon we may miss parallels to other traditions, such as Egyptian.EGMichaels (talk) 19:52, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

The bulk of the Genesis stuff derives from Mesopotamian traditions. Most important of all, the biblical characters until and including Abraham are all Mesopotamian. Also, the Genesis text was assembled during and after the Babylonian Captivity and was subsequently prefixed to the Exodus material.

In the Ancient Middle East a constant and extensive exchange and mingling of ideas, beliefs, rituals was going on, so there was no cultural or religious isolation as many people erroneously assume today. The root is in fact Sumerian, even Egyptian tradition derive from that source. · CUSH · 20:07, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Although Mesopotamian accounts are the oldest preserved in writing, that does not necessarily give them precedence. Campbell, for instance, argues for an Egyptian primacy for most oriental mythology. I have not yet read his volume, however, on occidental mythology. I think it's important that we editors don't take our pre-existing knowledge for granted. We are not the ultimate sources here, and need to do research in which we learn as we go, rather than merely plop down whatever we can cherry pick from our own backgrounds. In other words, Wenham and Campbell both give Egypt more credit than you do, and I suspect they may be better sources than either you or I.EGMichaels (talk) 20:50, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Cush, I'm not sure you're using "myth" in the way that Alastair or myself are using it. "Myth" is a literary desgination as much as anything else, involving symbolism. Santa Claus is a "true myth" (as a metaphor for parents). Those are real presents being left under the tree. While "Santa Claus isn't real" is a great sandbox conversation, after a certain point people start to see that it isn't a lie, and they grow up to tell their own children the same myth. There are three approaches to myth, then: 1) believing it as literal, 2) not believing it as literal, and 3) believing it as metaphor. We need to move beyond 1 and 2 and get to more interesting things.EGMichaels (talk) 17:05, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Oh please, save us your symbolism talk. Myth is just a story involving the supernatural or the mystical, there is no requirement of any symbolism. Fables include heavy symbolism and they are not necessarily myths. If a deity says "let there be light", what kind of symbolism is there included?

And how the heck is Santa Claus a metaphor for parents? You keep throwing around words like allegory, symbol, metaphor, and I am really not sure whether you are clear what these words in fact mean. · CUSH · 17:35, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Apollo doesn't literally drive chariots through the sky, but the sun does move. Santa doesn't literally leave presents under the tree, but there are presents there.EGMichaels (talk) 19:52, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Your point being? · CUSH · 20:07, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Virginia, there IS a Santa Claus.EGMichaels (talk) 20:50, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Summary 2

Many of the points noted in the first summary were supported by editors posting both in support of or opposition to reverting the current article title to the prior one. Only new (or substantially rephrased) points are included in this second list. It is noted that the 7 day period mentioned in the proposal header expired some time ago. Alastair Haines (talk) 16:23, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

• Proposal: rename article
• Main issue: word myth" in current title
• Main new alternative titles:

Genesis Cosmology (universal world-view)

Genesis Cosmogony (theory of universal origin)

• Two proposals for a content (PoV?) fork: e.g. Genesis 1 as creation myth

• New points made to Support move:

• cosmology and cosmogony reflect technical descriptive usage without the ambiguity of technical usages of myth
• cosmology and cosmogony are neutral with regard to the truth-value of the theories they describe
• cosmology and cosmogony are attested in the titles of Misplaced Pages articles, similar or related to the current one
• Note: one editor offered to do the work necessary to generalize this terminology to article titles deemed appropriate

New point of order

• clearly no consensus for current title, should revert to last title

• New points made to Oppose move:

• removing "myth" from the title advocates the biblical literalist PoV and censors a PoV offensive to Christians
• religious literature purporting to address universal origins is everywhere mythological and should be noted as such without exceptions
• ignorance of the meaning of myth is no defense under the law of "Misplaced Pages is not censored"
• "Creation according to Genesis" means "Creation proceded according to the description in Genesis"
• Genesis has an entry in the Encyclopedia of Creation Myths

Alastair Haines (talk) 14:49, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Are you our great summarizer now? You still fail to explain why and how the Judeochristian creation myth is different of should be treated differently from other creation myths. · CUSH · 14:58, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

If you disagree with the summary, feel free to change it. I provided it as a service, not as a statement of my own opinion, nor as any claim to authority. Only reliable sources have authority at Misplaced Pages. Though there are certainly plenty of urban myths here to the contrary of that.

Regarding why this topic might need different treatment, there are sources quoted on this talk page that answer your question, Cush. Though I agree with you, those arguing for a change of title have not addressed that objection explicitly. I can't know for certain, but that might be because they don't see it as a particularly strong objection. Are all religions the same, in all aspects? Are they in this one? Alastair Haines (talk) 15:52, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Observation by Jimbo (Transplant From Jimbo's Talk Page)

I would say it is clear that you do not understand neutrality - and if there is anything on that page which creates this misunderstanding, it needs to be fixed. Neutrality means that Misplaced Pages should not take a stand on any controversial issue - it is absolutely the case that we should factor in whether or not people would be offended when working on an article title when that offense stems from the title making a controversial assertion with which they do not agree. The goal is not to "not offend people" but rather to ensure that Misplaced Pages is not taking a stand. Give the facts in the body of the article, give them in a manner that everyone can agree with, and name the article accordingly. "Genesis creation myth" is blatantly and obviously not neutral on the key question of whether or not this story is true. We should not, equally, choose a title which suggests that the story is true, for example "Creation" without a qualifier would be a bad title for this article. Or How God Created The World - very bad. But "Creation according to Genesis" or similar does the correct thing - it avoids drawing any conclusion about that bit. The key here is that there have been produced, as far as I have seen, no arguments against that title that have been persuasive at all.--User:Jimbo Wales

Clearly I respect the opinion of our founder, but I'm also very skeptical about what he's saying here. For example, Misplaced Pages takes decisive and brutally honest stances on "controversial" issues such as Evolution and Global warming, which are both among our best articles. We don't say "Climate change" or some other such hogwash that politicians have been recently publicizing in lieu of Global warming. We call it like it is: the Earth is warming, so the article is called Global warming. The current title does not take a stand on the issue; its title and its content reflects the information found in reputable sources. No one is trying to be offensive here, and it's really difficult to predict how any given person is going to react to any random Misplaced Pages article. People take offense at very unexpected things sometimes. Our job is not to worry about who we might "offend," but rather to worry about accurately presenting reputable sources. This policy gets amended a little bit when we're dealing with living persons, but even then we can report "controversial" information if it's found in reputable sources. I just fundamentally disagree with the rationale of Mr. Wales.

But here's what's also funny: even if you agree with Mr. Wales, the argument he presents appears to advocate removing the word myth from any and all articles that currently contain it. If, in his opinion (and not, by the way, in the opinion of academia), the word myth could somehow refer to the falsehood or veracity of the account, then all those other articles also violate WP:NPOV and need to be retitled. Like I said, I don't agree with his reasoning, but I'm trying to flesh out the implications of his ideas, which reach far beyond this article.UBER 18:39, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

@Jimbo Wales: Please explain why you object to Genesis creation myth, but not to Chinese creation myth, Sumerian creation myth, Ancient Egyptian creation myths, Pelasgian creation myth, Tongan creation myth, Mesoamerican creation myths. In what way is the Judeochristian idea of the world's origin less a creation myth than the others?

As has been discussed here at great length before "Creation according to Genesis" is not neutral language. "Creation according to A", "Creation according to B", "Creation according to Genesis" implies that Creation is real and only its description varies. · CUSH · 19:09, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

I'll have to side with Jim here. Genesis 1-2 contains a creation myth/sacred history/allegory/foundational religious document/metaphor/a dozen other things you can call it. Mythologists will argue that it borrows from Mesopotamian and/or Egyptian sources, while biblical commentators will often as not argue it is an anti-mythological polemic. While the subject of Genesis as myth and in relation to myth certainly must be addressed, the title should be worded in a neutral manner. I'd add that the title should be worded in an accessible manner. The "Genesis creation myth" title has spawned at least a half dozen other forwarding titles because no one would think of looking for the subject under that title. While I do regard it as a creation myth, it would never occur to me to look for the cosmogony of a living religion under a title normally used for an extinct religion. If you have a title so bad that you need a bunch of forwarding titles to get you there, why not just use one of those forwarding titles?EGMichaels (talk) 11:19, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Re: Cush -- as far as I can tell those are all extinct religions. The terms "myth" and "religion" are often used to differentiate between dead and living belief systems. It's not really a value judgment so much as a historical designation. It's not really neutral to call a living religion a myth because there is always someone to argue about it, but all the proponents of a dead religion are, well, dead.EGMichaels (talk) 11:22, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

First of all, there are always some people who still adhere to "extinct" beliefs. Second, it is a fallacy to assume that present beliefs are somehow less mythical than past beliefs. And it is a pretty arrogant self-righteous position also. Sumerian or Egyptian religion were certainly more beautiful than the modern one-dimensional abrahamic ideology. And to call King Solomon less mythical than, say, King Arthur is simply ridiculous. · CUSH · 11:31, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure we're connecting on the term "neutral." To be, er, bland, "neutral" is that place you and I aren't arguing before we even begin an investigation of a topic.EGMichaels (talk) 11:44, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

To call past beliefs myth while you imply your current belief is something else, is not neutral whatsoever. Any wording that sets one religion over another is not neutral, no matter how extinct you think a religion is. If you take the position that YHWH has a different reality to it than, say, the Greek pantheon, you leave the neutral position. · CUSH · 11:52, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

You keep acting like I'm personalizing this in some way. I'm not. Islam is a religion. Judaism is a religion. Christianity is a religion. Mormonism is a religion. Hinduism is a religion. I most certainly do NOT believe ALL of these religions; I merely recognize that people do. At one time the Norse beliefs were a religion. While one could argue that all religions are mythologies, not all mythologies are religions (see Religion#Myth). Tolkien's mythology is not a religion because no one believes it. Therefore, one could see a "religion" as a specific subset of "mythology" in which adherents still exist.EGMichaels (talk) 12:18, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Ah, but once the religions that have adherents today were contemporary to religions that have in the meantime fallen out of popularity. A religion is a concept and as such is timeless. Also, I see no structural difference between current religions and past ones, especially since current religions derive from past ones. Judaism is so pumped full with Zoroastrianism and Christianity with Mithraism it is just dishonest to draw any dividing line as if there were a substantial difference between adherence to myth and religion. Religion is just the ritualized adherence to the mythical. Time is irrelevant when it comes to the alleged supernatural. · CUSH · 12:45, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

The distinction is made in what is a significant viewpoint nowadays. The argument of ancient religions being followed today seems out-to-lunch. I've seen absolutely no evidence of any significant population of followers of ancient pagan beliefs, who take the Greek myths seriously today, or who specifically object to their being agreed upon as "myths" by everyone. (If there is, show it) That's why currently-held widespread and significant POVs are treated so different from extinct ones, and that's a complete red herring analogy. On the contrary, the one neo-pagan group that has even a barely noticeable size, Asatru, has specifically issued statements that they do consider the Norse myths to be myths, and do not take them as true, nor object to their being called myths. So we can say that there is no demonstrable POV objecting to the Norse sagas being treated as myths; but the same cannot be said for the Bible, the Quran, the Vedas, or the Sutras which are all currently widespread. So I have to agree with the other posters that Jimbo's right on this one. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 12:37, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I concur with the founder of Misplaced Pages, furthermore I move that we change the article back to its original title "Creation According to Genesis" on April 5 since there have been no persuasive arguments presented for the current objectionable title. Deadtotruth (talk) 13:35, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

This new RM and the archives are full of persuasive arguments: any reason attached to an oppose vote was obviously persuasive to the person giving it. Ben (talk) 15:23, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Arguments based on false information and invalid logic typically have pursuaded not only the person who offers them, but frequently others as well. But so what? A polite critic might not come right out and say "that's false and illogical," but rather "that hasn't pursuaded me and won't pursuade others." I fail to see how the personal convictions of editors at Wiki are relevant to establishing content, or resolving conflict. Indeed, that's been argued by the oppose voters several times: we don't make decisions based on protecting people's feelings. The supporters of the move have agreed with that point. We must decide whether to move or not to move on the basis of reliable sources, policy and reason, whether people feel pursuaded the move is right or wrong is not really relevant to the decision. It is nice if everyone feels pursuaded it's right, but the only way to maximise those good vibes is to have sound sense which produces con-sensus. Sometimes people refuse to accept reason, or simply can't follow it. Those difficulties should and must be dealt with personally, but cannot be allowed to influence decision making.

That said, it's really nice to hear you caring about people's feelings, Ben, and I for one am right behind you in that. Alastair Haines (talk) 16:08, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

There is so much to read on this talkpage, that I am only now catching up with the discussion this morning below, when Cush suggested the compromise title "Biblical Creation", and several editors agreed that it is fitting. So now let me add my 2 cents to everyone else who said that this is a surprisingly good title. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 16:32, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Ben, it should go without saying that 99% of the comments here were actually believed by the person making them -- but conviction is not the same as persuasion. I could be convinced that Jesus is God or that Jesus is not God, but a simple statement either way would not be persuasive.

Further, to be persuasive one must be on point. Most of the arguments I've seen in favor of the myth title fall into several unpersuasive categories:

• It IS myth. Sure it is, but that isn't a reason to have it in the title.
• Every scholar says it's a myth. First, NOT every scholar says it is a myth. And second, the veracity of it as "myth" is not an argument to have it in the title (see first bullet).
• Everyone opposing the myth title must be a raving literalist. As pointed out in the "Evolutionists only, please" thread, the vast majority of those opposing the current title accept the status of the passage as myth and accept the fact of evolution. The argument is unpersuasive because the ad hominem is misdirected.

While I share your conviction and assumptions, I have not found your arguments regarding the title to be persuasive. Neither, apparently, has Jimbo. Can we all agree that neither "myth" nor "fact" in the title is seen to be "neutral" by all parties? And can we at least agree to EXPLORE a third alternative that would actually be neutral?

My own choice of title would be something that a normal rational speaker of English would think to search for if he were trying to find the subject we are discussing. I'd rather have a title I didn't like that people could FIND than a perfectly esoteric one no one would look for. Charles Schulz positively LOATHED the title "Peanuts", but that was the only title he could get a contract for, and the rest is history.EGMichaels (talk) 16:34, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Additionally, I'd like to echo Til's admiration for Cush's "biblical creation." It's a fine title.EGMichaels (talk) 16:38, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

edit break 2

• Oppose. The proposed title implies that creation happened and that Genesis documents it. This falls short in the NPOV department. "Genesis creation myth" is a correct, common, scholarly and neutral term for this creation myth. I might have not bothered to oppose "Genesis creation story", though I think that too is an inferior title. And at the moment, it would similarly be special treatment for this particular creation myth (systemic bias). Also, creating requested moves until getting the "right" result is ill-advised and disruptive if the beating of a dead horse continues aggressively enough. The recent appeal to Jimbo was quite timely. The RM backlog certainly does not need to be expanded with the same proposals again and again. Prolog (talk) 05:32, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I second that. Sometimes I think I am at a Discovery Institute website... · CUSH · 11:59, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Comment: Perhaps we need a new proposal, and an extension of time. We want a stable title and perhaps neither the current title nor the previous one will provide that. Perhaps we need to settle precisely what scope of content is expected first, then find a title for that.

Perhaps that content genuinely needs two articles: 1. "the demonstrable falsity of the picture of the physical aspects of the early universe in Genesis 1 if taken literally" (which conservative theists like myself will support, with the exception of literalist creationists, who should still be documented as a notable PoV against); and 2. "the metaphysical/theological implications of the Genesis 1 text as understood in the history of interpretation". I'm personally interested in (2), and find it rather a nuisance that people want to hijack a very important, interesting, beautiful and complex set of issues in an ongoing discussion among biblical scholars, to address the very mundane matter of (1) instead. No doubt others are just as irritated to find convoluted discussions of Hebrew grammar and debates about metaphysical nonsense, when what really matters is people being clear that Genesis 1 is most unsuited to being a science text book for school students.

Perhaps (1) is already covered in other articles? Would it hurt for it to have its own, though?

(2) still needs to work out its own scope questions: whole Bible or just Genesis 1, Genesis 1-2, Genesis 1-4? It probably needs to be bigger than Gen 1, 'cause that has its own article already.

Please note carefully, I am proposing a content fork, not a PoV fork. I suspect a good deal of recent friction is due to mistaking content differences for PoV differences. Sort that out and we just might find stability is the result.

I don't know what the appropriate process is to "roll over" this discussion into a new proposal or proposals like those I've suggested. And I'm not sure whether it's necessary. I'd particularly like to hear back from Weapon on this. Alastair Haines (talk) 15:31, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I concur on the questions of scope, and I share your interest in item 2 and weariness of item 1. I feel like I'm attempting to engage in a discussion of the thematic structure of "The Godfather" only to keep hearing "but Al Pacino isn't REALLY a criminal in real life!!!" Oy! Yes, it's myth, great -- but that doesn't END the question; rather, it STARTS the question. "Myth" is a symbolic literary structure that makes a "tale" something meaningful. I'd like to explore what makes this a "myth" rather than a mere "tale." But those who use "myth" as some kind of slap are bogging down the rest of us who are actually INTERESTED in myth.EGMichaels (talk) 15:38, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. As an outsider I read this on Jimbo Wales' web page, and initially the move sounded like a fair idea - but User:Nefariousski's logic changed my mind. We can't have Chinese creation myth, Sumerian creation myth, Ancient Egyptian creation myths, Pelasgian creation myth, Tongan creation myth, Mesoamerican creation myths, Creation Myth, Uranus (mythology)#Creation myth, Earth-maker myth, Baluba mythology#Creation myth of Kabezya-Mpungu but Creation according to Genesis. It makes Misplaced Pages sound like it is only sensitive to the complaints of Americans and maybe some Europeans (which is true, but no need to make things worse).

I should add that if the current name is retained, it would be desirable to quickly qualify the term by explaining what a myth and a creation myth is in the non-pejorative sense, providing a Wikilink to an article about other such myths e.g. creation myth.

On the other hand, if a move is insisted upon, then the new name should be Genesis account of Creation rather than Creation according to Genesis for reasons of NPOV discussed, and because it is probably a more standard phrase. Note that the phrase "Biblical account of " is already used in the first sentence, which I assume has also been discussed in some depth. Wnt (talk) 18:41, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

"Biblical Creation"

I hereby suggest to change the title of this article to "Biblical Creation". In this the scope and context of the article is conveyed, while controversial terms as "myth", "story", "account" are avoided. Also, with this title the article can be found easily in a visitor's search. · CUSH · 19:44, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

• Support EGMichaels (talk) 19:47, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
• Support Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 21:41, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
• Support i never thought it would be Cush who would come up with the the most fitting compromise Weaponbb7 (talk) 22:27, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Biblical creation is a term that would not be limited to Genesis since Colossians, John, etc. have passages that address creation. I believe that this would dramatically increase the scope of the article. I would not opppose the "biblical creation" title if the group wants to make that change.Deadtotruth (talk) 23:36, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

The bulk of the creation stuff is expressed in Genesis, the other paasages are negligible. The Judeochristian creation myth is the incantation by YHWH in the six days described in Genesis. · CUSH · 21:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

• Support as one of many good possible titles. This one is particularly suitable to possibly end up being a parent article to more specific topics, which might be very much less contentious, if we end up doing the hard work sourcing the top-level conceptual focus this proposed title zeros in on. Bravo Cush! Alastair Haines (talk) 03:37, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. As if a third RM wasn't bad enough, this RM is now in its own third cycle: the original by Weaponbb7 (who now appears to have abandoned it), a cosmogony/cosmology cycle and now this one. This endless cycle of WP:IDONTLIKEIT needs to stop. This article's topic is centred on Genesis, in particular the creation myth contained within, not the Bible as a whole where there is much further discussion of creation. If you feel this project could support an article with broader scope then by all means go and create it (where a suitable article title can also be discussed), but there is more than enough material on the Genesis creation myth to support an article on just the Genesis creation myth and I as a reader of this encyclopedia would be interested in an article on the Genesis creation myth. A subsection of the new article will obviously discuss the Genesis creation myth and point here for further discussion and this article should point back to the new broader article. I look forward to seeing the new article unfold, but for now the title of this article is fine as is and I oppose any change for the sake of the removal of the obviously relevant and suitable term creation myth. Ben (talk) 07:22, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

• Comment. I do not know if this is the best title but it is certainly better than the current one. If it means helping you all get over this mess then I would also support it. There are two major reasons why the current title is a poor choice and these reasons appear to be misunderstood by many of the people commenting here.

1) "Genesis creation myth" is NOT a commonly used phrase in scholarship at all. If you asked scholars from a variety of relevant fields and sub-disciplines whether or not this section of Genesis is a "creation myth" there would be widespread agreement that it is a creation myth. However, you'd be hard pressed to find these scholars actually referring to this narrative as the "Genesis creation myth." Instead you would find a wide variety of other options the most common utilizing terms like "story," "account", or "narrative" instead of "creation myth" -- again despite the fact that these scholars would agree that it is an example of a creation myth. If we were really following the scholarly view the body of the article would be clear about the notion that this is a creation myth, which it is already, but the awkward title would be gone.

2) "Creation myth" is NOT conventionally utilized in the title of an article of this type across Misplaced Pages. I tried starting a discussion of the actual conventions below but it went dead in the water when I asked for contradictory examples from someone who did not agree with my points. A very small minority of articles tagged with the "creation myth" category use the term in their titles, even though they make it clear right away what their subject matter is. If this article had a different title (and possibly different a scope) it might conventionally be named something like Ancient Near Eastern creation myths, and that would follow the convention. However, naming a narrative and then utilizing "creation myth" is not conventional. Anybody with two minutes on their hands can see this for themselves. Good luck.Griswaldo (talk) 12:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

2) Actually, "Creation myth" IS conventionally utilized in the title of an article of this type across Misplaced Pages. · CUSH · 13:53, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

It is used where appropriate, I think in 5 other cases - see Category:Creation myths. But most articles in this category have other types of name, as individually appropriate, which is correct. Johnbod (talk) 14:00, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Right. Please see the thread below titled "Looking past the obvious". It is used only in a handful of cases in the following formula -- "name of civilization" + "creation myth". When discussing specific narratives with other names it is never or almost never utilized. I provided examples below and have asked for counter examples but I don't see any. Good luck.Griswaldo (talk) 14:26, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

• Support as better than current title. "Genesis creation story" or "account" are better still. I agree with Griswaldo's comments, and see mine at various points above. Johnbod (talk) 13:56, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
• Support SAE (talk) 15:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. Present title is neutral, factual and precise. Please stop trying to change this by proposing titles that are less factual and less precise. 81.111.114.131 (talk) 20:33, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Of course the present title is neutral, factual, and precise, but unfortunately the majority of editors here are unable or unwilling to see beyond their religiosity, and they insisted that exceptions be made for their belief system. So I came up with a compromise. · CUSH · 20:49, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Serious concerns re: some of the sources cited

Reviewing the excessive footnoting for ex nihilo, we have cites to :

Forty Minutes with Einstein-I check the page given and no mention of a) Genesis b) Biblical creation or c) ex nihilo. Nice.

Wrinkles in Time- quote: "Until the late 1910s humans were as ignorant of cosmic origins as they have ever been. Those who didn't take Genesis literally had no reason to believe there had been a beginning." you gotta be kidding.

Quantum Reality: Beyond the New Physics - I couldn't check the Doubleday version, but page 177 of the hardback has this: "I want to know how God created this world" by Albert Einstein. No "ex nihilo", no "Genesis"--and it's a book about quantum physics!

Creation: the Story of the Origin and Evolution of the Universe -quote: "If the universe was truly created, though, there had to be nothing here before the creation. And again this is something that is difficult for most people to visualize, difficult because we usually associate "nothing" with empty space." Terrible.

Creation Ex Nihilo by Fain - :"According to Judaism, 'something from nothing', or the openness of the world, is openness to God. World one, the physical world, was open from the beginning and was created from nothing." both an oblique and obscure reference, certainly not cited much (if ever), but at least it comes closer to verifying the statement than the other refs cited. sorta.

Show Me God: What the Message from Space Is Telling Us About God - It has a picture of Albert Einstein pointing at the title. I'm not even bothering to check inside this one. This is a joke.

Then there's Clontz's Comprehensive New Testament. I'd like someone to quote this, because the description reads, The Comprehensive New Testament only requires a sixth grade reading level and is the most accurate translation of the Nestle-Aland 27th edition Greek New Testament ever produced." Hmmm. New Testament?

Another good one, God and the Astronomers-that one actually disagrees with the statement it's attached to. The book claims Genesis creation describes creation out of "formless matter", not creation ex nihilo.

Before the Beginning-if it's not self-published, it's very close to it - these titles give some indication we're not talking top drawer academic research publisher here

This leaves - St. Augustine and Philo, which are essentially primary source for all intents and purposes here. This is an embarrassment-I'm zapping all but Augustine and Philo, and we need to do better than this. Professor marginalia (talk) 23:46, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I support Prof. M.'s edit.

Primary, secondary, tertiary sources

I'm not sure I quite understand your definition of "primary source".

I suspect we agree, because I suspect you are speaking Wikipedi-ese, rather than ordinary English. And fair enough.

In ordinary (and academic) English, all sources are primary, some are also secondary, still others are also tertiary, etc., etc., ad infinitum.

Primary and secondary source categorizations are not, in general, mutually exclusive.

Philo and Augustine are secondary sources relative to the topic of interpreting Genesis.

Which I'm guessing is why you rightly have retained them.

This is certainly standard thinking in disciplines related to ancient literature, at least in my experience.

Your experience may exceed mine, or differ with it. I'd appreciate an alternative PoV.

The reason to have secondary sources is to reliably disambiguate sources published prior to them.

Where disagreement exists regarding interpretation of any source, recognized second opinions should be sought and documented.

Philo and Augustine

I won't defend the sources you've removed, but I certainly agree with retaining Philo (1st century Jew) and Augustine (4th/5th century Christian).

Philo and Augustine cannot be cited in interaction with later scholarship, however a good deal of later scholarship can be cited regarding interpreting them.

The important thing is, though, both Philo and Augustine interpreted Genesis in ways that anticipate more recent readings of Genesis. For example, neither of these commentators takes Genesis 1 as intending a literal, historical account or narrative of the origin of the world. Indeed, both would assert Genesis 1 is a story, implying clear, theological (rather than historical) propositions. This is particularly clear in Philo, who is considered to hold that Genesis 1 is technically an allegory.

I know there are 21st century sources that hold up Augustine as an ancient interpreter who would almost undoubtedly call Genesis a story but not a myth. I'd be pretty sure there would be no sources that would say anything much at odds with that.

Earliest source of an idea attributed

There is an expression in the Bible, "there is nothing new under the sun." It is a humbling thought. It applies imperfectly to some academic questions. A good deal of what modern academics write regarding Genesis, merely restates what has been published previously.

It is a useful convention, and essential in an encyclopedia, to acknowledge the earliest known source of ideas.

Philo and Augustine are important as we build up documentation in the current entry, whatever its title.

Alastair Haines (talk) 08:25, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I was confusing here. Augustine and Philo are sources there to the interpretation of genesis creation as ex nihilo, not the myth thing again. Unfortunately neither are clear cut, unambiguous ex nihilo-gians. Philosophers, historians and theologians have published Volumes over the centuries sorting out and arguing over the nuances of what "nothing" meant to these two who were so steeped in Greek conceptions. It's a simple statement that's ideally attributed to sources taking a much broader look at what "ex nihilo" means to most interpreting genesis creation. Professor marginalia (talk) 16:12, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

And I'm sorry if I was confusing. I like your cute term ex nihologian! I'm pretty sure we're agreeing here about methodology, which simply means sourcing in this case. We probably diverge somewhat regarding the distribution of scholastic views on ex nihilo.

The case for matter pre-extant to the creation explicit in Gen 1:1 (B'reshit bara Elohim ... vet ha'Arets), with Earth as direct object of the verb "create", rests on the grammar of the Hebrew connecting this to Gen 1:2 (v'ha'Arets hayta tohu ... tahom), where "this Earth is formless ... deep waters". It is a very natural, and traditional reading, that God created first a formless Earth depicted as deep waters ex nihilo. However, it is not impossible to make a case that Gen 1:2 depicts a background, which should be understood as a prior context for the first verse. That is the pre-extant matter reading.

The case against ex nihilo ultimately rests on the semantics of Gen 1:2 and the syntax and pragmatics of the relationship between the two verses. There are a finite number of linguistic arguments put forward by the handful of PoVs, on the evidence of the corpus of ancient literature that has survived.

Neither Philo nor Augustine address these modern linguistic arguments. David Toshio Tsumura and others do. But even without Hebrew, or a knowledge of the last 50 years of scholarship on the subject, editors here should be able to confirm that the ex nihilo debate turns on the meaning of Gen 1:2 and how it relates to Gen 1:1. They can also confirm that English language versions of the Bible published in the last 10 years attest both PsoV on this topic.

This is just one of several really important content issues to be covered in this namespace. I hope my comments above give a practical guide to how to start to form consensus on the basis of reliable sources, that is realistic given that we can presume no expertise on behalf of any of us editors here. Alastair Haines (talk) 02:32, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Alastair is correct on the Hebrew grammar - there are excellent summings-up in numerous sources, my personal favourite being that by Prof. Harry Orlinsky in his Notes to the NJSP Torah-translation of (I think) 1968. I think, however, that the question of ex-nihilo or non-ex-nihilo is threatening to overwhelm the article - there's more to Gen.1-2 than that, and we're in danger of getting undue weight. In essence, the ex-nihilo argument is a theological one, based on grammar and logic, while the non-ex-nihilo is based on setting Genesis 1-2 in its cultural framework (i.e. the time and place it was composed, 5th century Middle East, when nobody had heard of Plato and his logical arguments and everyone believed that the Ocean of Chaos was the original state of being) and on the structure of the entirity of Gen.1, which is a process of bringing order to disorder as Elohim-God builds his palace, which is the entire universe. As a result, ex-nihilo is the preferred reading of Evangelicals and others who read Genesis as a religious text, while non-ex-nihilo is preferred by the less religious. (Bible translations, my dear Alastair, are neither here nor there - just try selling Middle America a version of Genesis which begins with anything other than "In the beginning God created...").PiCo (talk) 04:17, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

With only minor quibbles, I'm with you, especially on the potential for "profit motive" to distort Bible translation.

But, practically speaking, ex nihilo needs a section, and at least PsoV for and against. The arguments, not merely the "votes" of sources need to be presented also. (Unless, of course, Bart Ehrman is correct and Misplaced Pages is about training us to do scholarship by democracy.) Alastair Haines (talk) 04:59, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Ex nihilo needs a mention, but not a whole section - think of all the other things that aren't even being touched on, like the "great sea monsters," the way in which the plants appear (Elohim doesn't actually create them, contrary to popular opinion - he causes the earth to bring them forth), the meaning of imago dei - let's not let this ex nihilo business distract us from the larger whole. (As for the nature of wikipedia, you know my opinion, and it hasn't changed). PiCo (talk) 10:51, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

These ridiculous sources were restored, reverted as vandalism. I've reverted. These references are a joke, they have no business here. Ex Nihilo does not need a dozen sources spamming extremely trivial and unnotable works (several focused more on Einstein than Genesis) whose remarks on 'ex nihilo' are as readable as tea leaves:-they need one (maybe two) direct references based on solid authorities. Professor marginalia (talk) 05:36, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Prosaically phrased Prof. M.! I couldn't agree more, as a theologian, Einstein is an extremely reliable source on physics. Though, to be fair, indeed "God doesn't play dice." ;) Alastair Haines (talk) 06:00, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Just a note -- I see that Deadtotruth and the Professor have engaged this discussion on the Professor's talk page. As expected, Deadtotruth has given reasons and quotes that the Professor missed. Regardless of the outcome, at least collaboration is possible to occur at this point. We can keep our fingers crossed and hope they reach a meeting of the minds.EGMichaels (talk) 14:56, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

More myth concerns

Here are some comments I wrote 27 Mar 2010 at Talk:Creation myth. I want to include them here: ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 05:14, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that the common, ordinary use of the word "myth" is so dominant in societal thinking, all the way back to the days of our bedtime stories, that it's only reasonable for the reader to assume that he/she certainly already knows what that simple four-letter word means. Therefore, how reasonable is it even to suspect that any reader might reason that they don't know what "myth" means, with or without the "creation" prefix? Is this line of reasoning by Wiki's fictitious "ordinary reader" logical for any of us to even imagine:

IS THE FOLLOWING A LIKELY SCENARIO??

"Hm, 'myth'. That's something that is imaginary or not true. It's fictional like the Santa Claus myth or 'Peter and the Wolf' and the Loch Ness monster and urban legends. But just in case 'they' are thinking of some other kind of myth (though I don't think there IS any other kind), maybe I'd better look it up by clicking on the light-blue Wikilink." Hogwash!

From umpteen years teaching in university classrooms, and almost as many years as a student, I know that people are loathe to look something up if they think it's somehow beneath their dignity on the basis that "I already know that. When we read the word "myth," unless we are among "the few and the proud" who are specifically schooled in a technical/academic/literary genre, highly atypical usage of the word, our kneejerk response is to run with the MOST familiar definition we've had of that word throughout our lifetime. And that's going to be an untruth that has been whitewashed as truth.

May I illustrate from the Wall Street Journal's use of the word myth, and the connotation they clearly expect from readers:

• Jun 20, 2009 . "A Doctor's View of Obama's Healthcare Plans: The Myth of Prevention."

• Feb 20, 2010. "The Myth of the Techno-Utopia." The complete sentence: "It's fashionable to hold up the Internet as the road to democracy and liberty in countries like Iran, but it can also be a very effective tool for quashing freedom. Evgeny Morozov on the myth of the techno-utopia."

• Apr 24, 2009: "...the Treasury for getting only 66 cents in value for every TARP dollar spent. This accusation would be troubling if true, but the 66 cent claim is a myth. The 66 cent conclusion is no more sound than a subprime mortgage."

• November 20, 2009: Lies, Myths, and Yellow Journalism. "Because this editorial is based on deception (or, more charitably, bad journalism), it's not surprising that harmful myths about education reform are also woven in. The myth that spending more money on poor and minority kids is a waste ("some of the worst school districts in the country spend the most money on students"), the myth that vouchers help kids from low-income communities (they haven't worked, which is why they're off the table), the myth that strict accountability will close the achievement gap (it won't, although accountability with clear standards, and with more capacity to meet those standards will), and the myth that teachers' unions are the enemy (they have problems, but reformers need to work with, not against them).

An ordinary Google search of Wall St. Journal + "myth" turned up these and many more. Please try the search for yourself on any of your favorite printed sources that contain OpEd's. We can continue to play ostrich and bury our heads in the sand, or we can stop trying to force "myth" with all its shades of gray down people's throats.

None of us were around when the term "creation myth" was spawned by a group of the intelligencia who probably had at least a couple of years of Greek, so the choice of words isn't our fault. But we do have other terms that are not ambiguous, even terms that no less prestigious an agency than NASA has chosen, such as cosmogony. True, it's not well known, but since it isn't, that's the type of word that most of us WILL click on if it's blue. Thanks. ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 05:14, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Dear Sir,

I, for one, can appreciate what seems like common sense, pleasantly expressed, well-reasoned and supported by a diversity of recent publications addressed to a general, intelligent and educated audience in your post above.

I'd like to grab the opportunity, not simply to second your opinion, however. I'd like to push you to engage more with the concerns of readers and editors who may think Genesis has some kind of historical cultural value, but is rather clearly not the sort of explanation of the origin of the world and humanity that is now pretty much accepted among educated people around the globe.

Out of politeness, a lot of people may be willing to agree to drop "myth" from the title of this article. Others, I suspect, will be willing to drop "myth" from the tile because it's hardly the ordinary scholastic way of referring to the Genesis anyway.

But, I'd like to hear your thoughts regarding the claim I made above, that Genesis is actually a secondary source. That is, it was hardly the first piece of ancient literature to address the "origin question." Do you think that is a fair statement? Was other literature, that might fairly be described as "myth" already known to the writer, writers or editor, editors of Genesis? At least by the time of it reaching the form in which it has been transmitted to us? Are you aware of any scholars who think that Genesis engages with this already "published" pre-existing mythology?

Now, here's the rub, does Genesis, as secondary source, endorse, quote and assume the veracity of the prior material? Does it critique it? Or is it some combination of assuming or accomodating parts of prior works, while critically presenting a new point of viw? What do the Genesis scholars you've read say? Are they all in agreement? Do they divide on "party lines"?

If, for example, Genesis thought populating the "heavens and the Earth" with a plethora of supernatural agents was a load of mythological bunkum, what might it say instead? What could it say to communicate that idea to people in the habit of thinking otherwise?

Aren't there ancient sources that describe monotheists as atheists? Isn't it possible modern atheists have more in common with ancient monotheists than they realise? A modern atheist views even monotheism as mythological God of the gaps nonsense, however ancient monotheists had very much the same view of the even more ancient polytheists and animists.

It's awfully frustrating watching people talking at cross-purposes when their reasoning is so very similar, just they are so dreadfully dogmatic about vocabulary.

To say Genesis 1 is technically myth is to say: 1. that it must be taken literally and 2. that there can be no God. I would not have thought either of those statements to be matters of self-evident truth without any dissenting points of view. Alastair Haines (talk) 06:15, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

My esteemed colleague, thank you for your gracious compliments, though far too generous. I am far less than your peer when it comes to the sophistry you express here. Please know that I am a theorist only in my chosen field of science, and express myself mostly in a practical meat-and-potatoes way. Therefore, I am both unworthy and unqualified to respond to your sage inquiry with any modicum of expertise or wisdom.

With that sincere disclaimer, I proceed: I completely agree that Genesis has historical/cultural value, and I personally do not hold to the literalist explanation you depict. However, I don't consider that the issue here. For the sake of discussion, let's assume there is a large group of intelligent, educated, respected people who believe the message of Genesis creation to be that "Almighty God" created the universe and all that is in it. They subscribe to divine inspiration but not to divine dictation. They are willing to consider the possibility that the intent of the biblical writings was not to provide some sort of scientific and historical schema of creation. Perhaps, they say, the meaning of creation for the writers of Genesis was something other than the present understanding of literal-historical. Let's further assume that they have a "high view" of Scripture that is reasonable and moderate (by some definition. Therefore, they aren't literalists; they just believe God created the heavens and the earth, that it's very incompletely understood just how he did it, though we are in process, albeit imperfectly, of learning the "how's" through science; that the J and P sources believed God is Creator and did their best to write a historical narrative through the prism of their inspired world view. The sources wrote no political or cultic treatise and mentioned no rituals—unlike the cosmologies of some of their predecessors and neighbors.

Today, some consider the Genesis accounts to be a demythologized myth (technical use of term), but that doesn't mean we must ignore the influences upon their narratives brought to bear on the writers by their cultural milieu and other creation stories. The writers were not monastics.

Let's even assume that more than a few of these hypothetical 21st century moderates do believe that the Creator set it all in motion, is still very much involved in the universe he created, and that ongoing natural and supernatural processes (not to exclude evolution) are indications of this. To these folks, as well as to the 3rd graders whose upbringing has led them to these same conclusions at a much less mature level, we throw the "myth" curve ball. Darwin write that the OT is a "manifestly false history of the earth." Rather than focus on the possibility that Genesis creation narratives were never intended to be historic account, religious objections to Darwin's assessment have focused on the word false, and many evolutionists have agreed with the Darwinian "false history" claim. This is why I personally believe the word "myth", even with a thousand notes to say it doesn't mean untrue, is manifestly offensive to such a huge number of readers and editors.

Thanks again for your supportive comments and your provocative (but at times over my head) thoughts. ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 05:15, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

From my research, historically there was no controversy. Apparently, both the patristic and medieval church interpreted the Genesis accounts allegorically or figuratively. I read that the Protestant reformers rejected the allegorical method in favor of a more literal-historical method of interpretation. Even then, an exegetical emphasis on what appeared to be the plain meaning of the text did not place the Bible in serious conflict with the new science of the day, in that there was some latitude in the application of a literal approach.

Good science professor, sir,

what great good humour, patience and humility there is in your clear and nicely written reply!

I particularly appreciate the picture you build up of the educated, intelligent moderate.

There are many who know a fair bit about science, and a fair bit about theism, and find little conflict between what they know of each.

When we turn to the early chapters of Genesis, the information we lack is not conclusive proof of God's existence, nor conclusive proof from a fossil record, what the average moderate lacks is knowledge of historical literature.

Our average moderate is not familiar with Hebrew, nor with Akkadian or Sumerian. We are dependent on people we'd normally pass by in the street—professors of ancient languages and literature—who for once, we can see do serve us and our civilization in matters of interest and importance for all.

I wonder if we can all quieten down a bit, so their voice can be heard, and their sense bring us together to con-sens-us.

I'm hushing, let's see what old voices might be given the floor to engage us.

Alastair Haines (talk) 07:23, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Written by Jews?

Since Jews have always believed that the Genesis account was authored by God, I'm changing that in the lede. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 16:30, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

That sounds like an incredibly silly reason. However, I wonder if we can be sure it was written by Jews. A priori it is not clear (although I may be exposing my ignorance by saying so) that substantial parts weren't written by someone non-Jewish first, and later adopted by Jews. Hans Adler 16:39, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

What rather wonderful contributions by both of you.

Lisa is providing perhaps the oldest documented PoV, that survives in many reliable sources right up to the present day.

Hans is asking precisely the question that has occupied scholars for most of the 20th century, though it is generally phrased as a question of how much editing rather than straight borrowing was done by whom, when and with what purpose.

Bravo! Alastair Haines (talk) 17:23, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

One cannot just replace a reference to actual authorship with insubstantial claims to alleged authorship. Replacing fact with faith is dishonest, unencyclopedic, impermissible. · CUSH · 19:01, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Plenty of sources.

• Aish.com
• Chabad.org
• Ohr.edu
• Zechariah Fendel, Legacy of Sinai: A History of Torah Transmission, Rabbi Jacob Joseph School Press, 1981

It isn't faith, Cush. It's fact, based on scholarship and knowledge which has gone on for millenia. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 20:00, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Lisa seeks to replace information on the subject matter by doctrine (which she calls "tradition"). She has been doing that for the last five years. The book of Genesis was written by Jewish authors and not by some deity. Get real. · CUSH · 07:36, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Faith requires facts or it is irrational and perhaps dogmatic. The timetable says the train is scheduled for 7:15. On the basis of that fact we place our faith in the rail service to fulfil their promise.

But the important thing here is that Cush is the one who seems to have faith without facts.

Cush believes ardently that "myth" is the unanimous (minus WP:UNDUE sources) common technical designation of the Genesis cosmogony in sources that have studied the ancient documents.

Now that's a verifiable (or falsifiable) proposition. Cush could prove the facts his faith is based on, if indeed it is based on facts rather than presumptions or pre-judice.

The only problem is that we've seen quite a bit of evidence that scholastic literature does not show the kind of unanimous opinion that "myth" is an unproblematic technical description of the Genesis cosmogony.

There are sources that would support Cush's opinion, but I can't understand why he wants us to believe him, rather than those sources. Alastair Haines (talk) 07:40, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't believe cush has ever said that this was "unanimous." So you should retract that statement. — The Hand That Feeds You: 14:17, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I've refined the statement. If there is a WP:DUE set of reliable sources that have the opinion that "myth" is inappropriately applied to Genesis, then Cush would simply be promoting a POV. I am WP:AGF, which is not hard, and so it follows that Cush seriously believes all (except an WP:UNDUE minority) think "myth" is appropriately and indeed preferably used to describe the Prologue to Genesis. Alastair Haines (talk) 10:41, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

The term "creation myth" refers to a story that explains the origin of the world through supernatural means. That is what Genesis in its opening chapters does. Since Misplaced Pages is religiously neutral there is absolutely no reason to put the biblical narrative in a different category. Or is there (except the personal convictions of some editors) ?

If you use any other designation, you imply reality. In that case Misplaced Pages has deteriorated from an encyclopedia to a creationist platform. I doubt that this is the purpose of Misplaced Pages (although I am not so sure about that anymore).

And please read the elaborate OPPOSE vote by Nefariousski in the Requested move section. · CUSH · 11:18, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Looking past the obvious

I've read a lot of the discussions on this talk page regarding the article's title and I'm fascinated by how many points of view are represented in this discussion. However, I'm also wondering if you all aren't looking past what seem to be some rather obvious conventions on Misplaced Pages (conventions that actually also generally mirror scholarly usage as far as I understand it). Other articles about specific creation myths, or groups of such myths, on Misplaced Pages *almost* exclusively follow one of two patterns in regard to their titles:

1) Simply using the common name of the narrative that comprises or contains the creation myth in question (without the word myth, or "creation myth" in the title). See - Enûma Eliš, Völuspá, Rangi and Papa, etc.

2) Referring to the creation myth(s) of a specific civilization (or group of related civilizations) by pairing the name of the civilization and the term "creation myth". see - Mesoamerican creation myths, Sumerian creation myth, etc.

From the cursory exploration I did the first option appears much more common than the second. Both of these observations also appear to be in line with scholarship. Scholars are just as unlikely to ever use the phrase "Enuma Elish creation myth" as they are to use the phrase "Genesis creation myth". The Enuma Elish is a ancient narrative and there is consensus that this narrative can be grouped with others in a general category we call "creation myth". Likewise the passages in Genesis discussed in this article are a narrative and there is consensus that this narrative is also included in the category of "creation myth". However, what these passages are most plainly are narratives. That basic fact of narrativness is very clearly articulated in virtually every other article on other similar narratives but not this one. Why is that? I noticed a couple of arguments against "exceptionalism" but I wonder if those arguments are not in fact turned on their heads. The current title is clearly itself an exception and not in accord with scholarly usage. If the conventions of other articles were followed this one would not contain the term "creation myth" in the title, but would retain the notion that it is primarily considered a creation myth in the introduction and body of the text. Perhaps this observation has been stated before and discounted for some reason (I must admit that while I was fascinated by the discussion I could not read the entire archive). I do not wish to enter this dispute but I figured I'd share these thoughts. Good luck.Griswaldo (talk) 12:47, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I would like to note that given the observed convention I mentioned above there would be two options available here. Either something like Israelite creation myth, Judeo-Christian creation myth, Abrahamic creation myth, etc. or to be in line with the more common convention a title that signifies the narrative without the word "creation myth". Just in case that wasn't clear. Good luck.Griswaldo (talk) 12:50, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Ancient Near Eastern creation myths would be an excellent setting in which to place the Prologue to Genesis. I do hope others explore this option. Alastair Haines (talk) 13:54, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Genesis (the whole 50 chapters) doesn't deal with creation, only the first two chapters do. And those first two chapters don't have a name like Enuma Elish. Nice thought, but impractical. PiCo (talk) 04:06, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm not disagreeing with you PiCo, but it's worth realising even Enuma Elish doesn't have a name. If Enuma Elish is the name, then B'reshit is the name of Genesis. Likewise, Enuma Elish (the whole work) doesn't deal with creation, only the first book does. Alastair Haines (talk) 04:51, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Your second point is a good one, Alastair. As for the namelessless of Enuma, yes, but my point is that we need to call the article by a title that's easily identifiable to the average wiki-user - he's going to type "Creation Genesis" or something similar into the search-bar. PiCo (talk) 10:53, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

As far as searching goes isn't that taken care of by doing what I just did for Norse creation myth and Babylonian creation myth? It is my observation that some rather excessive and complicated tangents have been and are being discussed on this page related to what is really a much simpler naming issue. My advice is to seriously consider the convention I mentioned above and its implications to the title of this article. Someone should explain why this article needs to be the exception or else figure out how to move on. Using the current title is also an exception in scholarship, BTW. I'm not sure anyone has done so yet but I'd bet the farm on the fact that combinations of words like "Genesis creation story", "Genesis creation narrative", or "Genesis creation account" is much more common in scholarship than the current title phrase. What I've seen are a lot of arguments conflating the title itself with the scholarly consensus that this section of Genesis is in fact a creation myth. It is no more a creation myth than Völuspá or parts of Enûma Eliš and that is the simple point. Anyway good luck once again.Griswaldo (talk) 11:43, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Erm... both of those are creation myths. — The Hand That Feeds You: 13:55, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Huh? Of course they are. Did you read what I wrote? They are (and/or contain) creation myths but the articles about them are not called: "Enuma Elish creation myth" or "Voluspa creation myth". This article appears to be the only one titled in this fashion. Have a look for yourself across the Wiki. The convention is to use the two types I listed clearly above.Griswaldo (talk) 14:20, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Also, I don't want to get into this debate. There appears to be a knee jerk reaction here against anyone who suggests that the current title is bad to assume that they are also arguing that this section of Genesis is not a creation myth. This section of genesis is a creation myth, but logic does not necessitate that the term go in the title and convention says it probably shouldn't. These types of assumptions are what I was afraid of before commenting and I'm seriously done now. Good luck.Griswaldo (talk) 14:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

You said, "It is no more a creation myth than Völuspá or parts of Enûma Eliš and that is the simple point." We're not saying Genesis as a whole Genesis is a creation myth, but the creation story is. If the creation myths contained in Völuspá or the Enûma Eliš stood out enough to deserve their own articles, sure, we could have Enûma Eliš creation myth. Note that the articles with the words "creation myth" in the title are specifically about the creation myth itself, not the source book/poem/tablets/whatever. And yes, there are other articles with "creation myth" or "creation mythology" or just plain "mythology" in the title here. Finally, your own knee-jerk reaction in your second comment is noted, but doesn't really help anything. — The Hand That Feeds You:

I understand where the confusion came from and apologize for jumping to conclusions. What articles that are comparable to this one have "creation myth" in the title? Do you disagree with my claims above (in the very first post of this string) regarding the convention I observed across this category of entries? If so contradictory examples would be helpful. Clearly the words "creation myth", etc. are in article titles (see my first post above), but the observation I made is that they are not in titles of articles like this one. Is that because there really is no article like this one? Is this really an exceptional case that merits an exceptional title? In my view, given the clear convention, that should be the foundation of an argument for keeping this title. I've said to much already, but I did want to apologize for jumping to conclusions.Griswaldo (talk) 19:35, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

A different angle

Genesis: literal or littoral?

Griswaldo, and the others interacting with him have got me thinking: thinking encyclopedia, thinking ancient texts, thinking literature, then applying that to what I know of Genesis, and of scholastic commentary.

broad focus

I've dropped brief comments in at points of discussions above that Biblical cosmogony is found in later parts of Genesis and the Pentateuch, Psalms, Job and in the New Testament. That is an article worth having, but is that article the same as this one?

I've also noted that Ancient Near Eastern creation myths, a la Griswaldo's suggestion, is also a topic on which Genesis is both a secondary as well as a primary source. That is another article worth having.

narrow focus

But, as good as it would be to have those articles, and as good as it would be for them to take the weight of addressing particular kinds of questions, we are still left with the current article. Just precisely what is this article? I take it that it is not an article on Genesis, Genesis 1 or Genesis 2, ... Those articles already exist.

the present article in sharp focus?

I've also dropped comments in above, that point to the fact that scholars typically see Genesis 2 and 3 as being very closely related, indeed the text points to Genesis 2-4 being a unit. The Hebrew marker is toldot, in the NIV the relevant verses are:

• Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
• Genesis 2:4 "This is the account (toldot) of the heavens and the earth when they were created."
• Genesis 5:1 "This is the written account (toldot) of Adam's line ..."
• Genesis 6:9 "This is the account (toldot) of Noah ..."

I've included Gen 1:1 here because, although it doesn't use the toldot "formula", and although there is debate about whether this formula heads or closes sections, and finally, although it can be used against my own personal PoV, the fact remains that scholars take seriously the self-conscious division of Genesis by a late editor or the original author, authors or editors.

If these are all headings, then the real "story", "myth" or what-have-you begins with Gen 1:2 (and pre-existing matter). I told you I don't like that reading. There are ways to escape it, but this is besides the point. The point is that reliable sources see sections of Genesis, self-defined sections, which the commentators take seriously, but interpret differently.

Perhaps I need to discard my reference to the Genesis Prologue. It's awfully close to being well-defined, it's argued by many scholars flying quite different flags, that Gen 1:1-2:3 is a Prologue to Genesis, marked explicitly in the Hebrew of the text. But the problem is, only Gen 1:1-2:3 can fairly be called the Prologue.

By-the-by, Philo (1st C.), Augustine (4/5th C.) and Julius Wellhausen (the Bible's own Darwin) do not see the Prologue as myth, because it is poetic allegory. In other words, it has propositional content (can be proved true or false) but the propositions it affirms are derived from the tenor of the metaphors it uses rather than the literal vehicles of those metaphors. In ordinary English, "day" in Genesis 1 implies God worked within time in a rational manner, not that he delayed 24 hours between performing actions.

But as I said, that is by-the-by. What is more important is that Wellhausen denied Genesis 1 was myth, while affirming that Genesis 2ff were quite literally that, myth. My point is that Genesis 2-4 is the "myth" of the "heavens and the earth when they were created", per the text as seen by influential scholars ... all of those chapters, without us thinking we're smarter than them and cherry picking chapter 2 out of them.

application

To apply that to the current discussion: scholarship addresses a range of notable topics related to Genesis and creation. Several of these deserve articles, indeed require articles to cover the range of secondary source points of view adequately. We are gripped by a conflict that is partly due to confusing many feature of a topic into one mess of divergent opinions (I believe the word conflation became fashionable at Wiki in recent times, so I'll avoid it).

But despite all the confusion, it appears the thing people want addressed in a specialist article, and it might as well be this one, is "what Genesis says about creation".

I don't think people really care about Biblical cosmogony (what kind of waters were where and when they were), nor about Ancient Near Eastern creation myths (and the wierd and wonderful pantheon of superhumans and metaphysics they postulated). Some want to know what truth claims Genesis makes, so they can prove them false, and apply the term "myth" rightfully to what is known to be fiction. Others (not represented here) want to prove Genesis' truth claims in order to establish its divine inspiration. Most moderates, however, recognize, in accord with scholars, that Genesis 1-2 are not a serious attempt to make truth claims about the natural world in the way physics attempts. Those moderates may reject or accept the theological intentions of early Genesis, but at least they recognize it is not literal, making it poor material for experimental confirmation or refutation.

As a moderate (and a believer as well), I can actually cope with the word "myth", as a clumsy substitute for "allegory". Genesis is certainly not scientific observation or historical eyewitness narrative. "Story" is a good, and better word than "allegory", in that it is more widely understood, and actually implies less. But as a student of literature, and of scholars of literature, "myth" is ultimately part of the discussion of context of composition, only a small part of the subject, not the title.

If we want people to find the work we are doing here, isn't all we need the words "creation" and "Genesis" and as little else as possible? Alastair Haines (talk) 04:59, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

What do you mean by "clumsy substitute for allegory" ? Allegory for what? · CUSH · 01:15, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

The word myth (pure fiction) is a clumsy substitue for the word allegory (fiction making true points).

An analogy would be untruth (false statement) as a euphemism for lie (intent to deceive).

But I'm talking literary genre here. Genesis is allegory not myth on a literary level, there's plenty of sources that make that clear.

Use of the word myth is not restricted to literary studies, it is much more significant in anthropology, where it is very well-defined and well understood.

Myths are very active things anthropologically. They are a means by which our species work communally to attempt to understand and manage the world around them, including one another. Myths typically involve rituals, people participate actively in the world-view of their society, and those rituals are often believed to impact on forces outside the community.

Genesis 1 might just be stretched to anthropological myth status if we see Sabbath-keeping as a ritual participation in the myth of creation. It has historically served as a focal point for Jewish identity. However, Sabbath-keeping has another rationale in a later passage in the Bible. Also, instead of it being a way of controling the world, it is a way of surrendering control ... acknowledging the will of a Creator.

Myth does pick up some features of Genesis 1, but it is a very crude description, it fails to apply in many ways. That's probably why it's not particularly common in academic treatment of Genesis. Writers who used it too freely would look like they didn't understand what "myth" means, and would look like they didn't understand Genesis. They might also look rather like they had hang-ups about the exclusive religious school they attended.

Myth isn't a bad word and has its place in describing Genesis, but it's a casual general sort of usage, at least in the sources I've interacted with. I guess it's not too bad in books aimed at a popular market, and Wiki is certainly that.

But why use a sub-par term when we don't need to use any term at all? Alastair Haines (talk) 19:48, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Allegory is not "fiction making true points". Allegory is using fiction to represent something else, especially something out of the real world. Fables are allegories (e.g. Aesop's Fables). Personifications of abstracta are allegories (e.g. Muses). The story of creation in Genesis is not an allegory. The elements of the story are no literary substitution to represent circumstances and interactions in human life. Genesis seeks to explain the actual creation of the world by the supernatural, it is no replacement of human action.

Creation myth is exactly what the opening chapters of Genesis are. · CUSH · 13:44, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Muslims and Genesis

I noted an edit summary suggesting Muslims don't know of Genesis.

I believe the editor making that comment forgot for a moment that those who claim decent from Abraham (Genesis 12) via Ishmael are well aware of what they believe to be a Jewish corruption of the historical truth.

To my understanding, in broad terms, Muslims accept the Old Testament, torat, as Law given by Allah to Moses, Musa (pbuh), for the Jews and the New Testament, injil, as Mercy given by Allah to Jesus, Issa (pbuh), for the Christians, but both, in their current form, corrupted by the adherants of those faiths. In practice, certain scrolls, like the Book of Job are considered to be consistent with Allah's final teachings in the Qur'an given to Muhammed (pbuh). The Qur'an, to the Muslim, is the standard by which the corrupted words of God in the Bible are to be measured.

The Qur'an has quite a different account of creation, specifically the creation of man. It is significant even for understanding food laws: what is halal, and what haram. Muslims have little patience for Genesis 1, which they take to be intended literally (not myth), demonstably false by science, contrary to the Qur'an, typical of the corruption that should lead Jews and Christians to turn to the truth of the Qur'an instead, where Law and Mercy meet. Alastair Haines (talk) 07:04, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

If Islam considers the Torah to be corrupted, and if they consider the Koran to be the uncorupted revelation, and if the account in the Koran is substantially different from the account in Genesis, then it follows that Islam does not consider the Genesis account to be a genuine or accurate reflection of the Word of Allah. The fact is that Islamic scholars don't study Genesis, or any other

OK, sure, I stand corrected. Alastair Haines (talk) 11:15, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Letting a reliable source speak: history, story, legend, myth?

Reliable sources are pretty jolly good at explaining how easy it is to ask the wrong questions. Apologies for adding emphasis, but I know how little time most people have for reading. ;) Alastair Haines (talk) 11:15, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Sir Charles Leonard Woolley, "Stories of the Creation and the Flood", Palestine Exploration Quarterly 88 (1956): 14–21.

They make the fundamental mistake of classing together in the same category two things which are essentially different. Even the tile given to my lecture today to some extent perpetuates the error--"Stories of the Creation and the Flood"--it seems to put them upon the same footing, whereas they could scarcely be more diametrically opposed. Let me explain this. The Flood story purports to be history. It deals with a definite incident in man's experience, with the adventures of an individual human being whose name and genealogy are on record, and it recounts the facts of that experience as they were remembered and handed down by tradition through subsequent generations. On the other hand, the Creation story deals with times and events prior to the appearance of man upon the earth, prior indeed to the very existence of the earth. It cannot therefore be based on human memory. If it be claimed to be a record of facts, then it can only result from divine revelation, since nobody but God could know the facts--and I certainly cannot imagine anyone attributing to divine inspiration the very unpleasant theogony of the Sumerian tablets from which the Genesis account is derived. Otherwise it is necessarily an invention, but a serious one; an essay in cosmological speculation whereby man attempts to explain the universe. Here, then, we have two things, tradition and myth, which are absolutely different; we have tended to confuse the two, but, as I hope to show later, the Hebrews did not; they recognized the difference and treated the two things differently. Let me take the Creation myth first.

The cuneiform tablets which contain the Creation story are terribly fragmentary, so that the text is very far from complete. Moreover, they contain not one legend but several, and these cover a very wide field. The main subject is not the creation of the universe but something much more important, the creation or genesis of the gods who rule the universe.

To summarise: Noah's Ark is true history, tho distorted by time, but Creation is myth and speculation. Lisa? PiCo (talk) 09:24, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Not sure that was what he intended. I think the point is that history (or purported history) deals with events which claim to have been observed and reported by human beings, while events which could not or do not claim to have been observed and reported by human beings fall into a different category. The events of Noah at least purport to have been observed and reported by human beings.

However, I'd like to differ with this source on a number of grounds. First, God's attitude and reasons given for the flood and the decision not to repeat it are not humanly observable. Second, the universality of the flood is not humanly observable. At best one could claim that he could not see land anywhere for a while, but to claim that the entire earth was submerged is not naturally observable by an individual at sea level.EGMichaels (talk) 15:49, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for interacting, friends. I don't agree with this source about a number of things, including some that you've pointed out. However, the purpose of providing it here was to demonstrate that some of the things that have come up in discussion are, indeed, discussed in reliable sources. In particular, Wellhausen and Woolley agree that Genesis 1 is "sober reflection" and "an essay in cosmological speculation". But Wellhausen distinguishes that from myth, where Woolley considers it the basis for designation as myth. Regarding Genesis 2-3, though, Woolley would push down the line of this involving "tradition" rather than myth, whereas Wellhausen sees it (and the Flood) as perpetuation of myths. I sympathise with where Woolley is coming from, but I'm more comfortable with Wellhausen's terminology. However, my tastes are not relevant, the main point is that Wellhausen and Woolley both read Genesis 1 the same way, with quite different takes on its value, and with different terminology, in particular with different terminology regarding the sense of the term "myth". Alastair Haines (talk) 19:24, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

More Rope a Dope (Cheap Shots)

I specifically said here that I would be offline during Pesach, and SPECIFICALLY said that I would restore the sources Deadtotruth researched to stabilize sections Pico kept deleting if someone vandalized them during the holiday (someone apparently vandalized my request!!!!). It may take me until tomorrow to catch up, since I'll be on the road today, but it's a cheap shot to target a section a person specifically requests a hiatus on during their holiday.EGMichaels (talk) 13:08, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Your comment did not request a hiatus and was already archived by the 'bot (who set it to 24 hours?) by the time Professor Marginalia created his section above. No one "vandalised" your request. It is a cheap shot to fail to assume good faith to your fellow editors and call their edits "vandalism." You are making the assumption that PM saw your note then waited while you were away to sneakily delete them, even though he created a section on the talk page discussing the removal. The logic fails there. Auntie E. (talk) 17:05, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I suggest you should put away that "vandalism" accusation if you're too busy to pay attention. You're sounding like the boy-who-cried-wolf. None of the sources that you discussed over in that discussion were removed (Schaff, Wenham or Gunkel). The discussion was *archived* by a bot-nobody vandalized it. I was not involved in that discussion-even now I can't don't recognize you discussing the cites I removed. I haven't worked with you before on any dispute that I can recall, and I will not be held responsible for failing to track of your holiday plans or await your approval before making any edits. Almost all the cites I removed I checked and found failed to support the claim attributed to them. One I didn't check obviously doesn't qualify as a WP:RS on this subject at WP, and the second (which I've since checked) is drawn from the insights of such notable theological historians as Stephen Hawking and Carl Sagan, and contributes nothing to this claim except corroborate ex nihilo translates as "nothing". References aren't meant to merely decorate claims with a beaded-string of numbers--they need to verify the statements they're attributing. Professor marginalia (talk) 17:48, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Professor -- please take time to research the reasons refs have been added before deleting them. Pico deleted any reference to ex nihilo well over a dozen times and the refs grew in response to this. First, things need to be reliable. Wenham and Philo showed the reliability and the age of the view. Then they continued to be deleted on the grounds they were not NOTABLE. The additional refs demonstrated the notability of this view, including pervasiveness in the culture.

While I'm not married to someone else's refs, I tend to lean in favor of preserving other people's refs (even to points I disagree with), especially when they are added for the purpose of stabilizing repeatedly deleted text.

Several years ago I put this respect for refs on my user page -- and stated that deleting refs (rather than moving them to better locations) is tantmount to vandalism. While you can disagree, please understand that this is the degree of respect I accord to all POVs for all editors, especially on contentious pages. If we delete refs on stable pages, perhaps no harm is done. But a contentious page should err on the side of refs until the page stabilizes. This page is CLEARLY not stable.

Please discuss this with Deadtotruth, the editor who added the refs. Please consider alternative locations for refs you do not feel appropriate here. And then, once you have worked collaboratively, please accept my compliments for working with other editors instead of against them. But I cannot afford those compliments while you are deleting refs supporting a section that keeps getting deleted. Thanks.EGMichaels (talk) 00:13, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

These refs have been demonstrated to be not worth including in this article. If your concern is for the term ex nihilo, why don't you just wait until someone tries to remove the term, and in the meantime, look for some reliable biblical scholars who discuss the term so that when you inevitable have to defend its inclusion, you can add it back with better references. Misplaced Pages has a very specific definition of vandalism, and this ain't it. Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 00:56, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Maher, your comments suggest that you are unaware of the history of this issue. The refs were added by no less than three editors in an attempt to anchor ex nihilo from a routine daily edit war in which an editor deleted all references to the subject. Deadtotruth warned Pico, and reported him for edit warring. The initial ref was to Philo. Pico claimed that Philo was not notable or reliable. I added refs to Wenham, a biblical scholar. Tediousness added refs to another biblical scholar. Pico continued deleting these biblical scholars. I attempted compromise with Pico and requested he MOVE refs to places he felt more appropriate. He appeared to agree and moved Philo, and then the next day deleted Philo and my own refs and Tediousness' refs to biblical scholars. The reason? While ancient (Philo) and reliable (two biblical scholars) it was not notable. At that point Deadtotruth added refs to multiple disciplines, including scientists -- establishing notability.

These refs demonstrate the notability and pervasiveness of this view. Although I did not add the refs, I understand and support the need for them to establish that notability.

I have not yet seen any arguments that the refs fail to demonstrate the pervasiveness and notability of the view. Instead, I find on my page an "edit war" warning in which you failed to show another party. As I asked on your talk page -- who else did you warn for edit warring? Who am I warring with, and who is warring with me?

In fact, I'll repeat the request to you that I made to the professor -- work WITH other editors instead of against them. Collaboration is easy, but less exhilirating. I prefer we forego the exhiliration and posturing and respect other people's refs -- moving rather than deleting. To your comment "These refs have been demonstrated to be not worth including in this article" then WHICH article did you move them to? And to your accusation that my support of other editors work is "lazy", then please demonstrate your lack of laziness by showing what you have added, or moved, to appropriate places.

I believe all of these are perfectly reasonable questions -- and I did so without threatening to block you (as you did me). But, again, I don't enjoy giving threats.EGMichaels (talk) 02:52, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

EGMichaels, your comments suggest you are not clear on what is considered vandalism. Please read WP:NOTVAND to find out what is and is not vandalism. Thank you. Auntie E. (talk) 04:08, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Aunt, people are allowed to use terms in discussion in ways that they define, as long as they are clear on their meaning. I've been clear both here and even on my user page (for years now) that deletion of references without collaboration or moving to better locations is simply vandalism. You may argue that my use is different from a particular guide and that's perfectly fine -- the definition on that page does not limit my own clearly specified use. I insist that editors work WITH each other rather than AGAINST each other. Most refs that I've seen in dispute belonged somewhere, even if not in the disputed place. Truly respectful editors discuss these refs with the person who actually added them (when possible). Granted, Professor was new here, and granted, he had no way of knowing the history of these refs, and granted (on my own behalf) I did not have the time to research whether or not the deleter was the same deleter as always or some new person who stumbled into it. But I would defend your work, Professor's work, and even Pico's work, just as strongly if it was being deleted in a non-collaborative manner, rather than discussed or moved.EGMichaels (talk) 04:18, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Maher-shalal-hashbaz please stop deleting references. Deadtotruth (talk) 03:23, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

@EGMichaels-You cannot demonstrate notability of a tenet by lining up 10, 20 or 30 footnote examples of the concept in use (the more examples, the more notable? no. no. no.) If the notability of some tenet is disputed, you have to source it's notability.

You have described to me your own preservation-comes-before-all-else oriented policy. However WP has a policy about references, WP:Verifiability. I will bold the passages I think relate to references (and a passage) you insist on restoring.

Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Reliable sources are needed to substantiate material within articles, and citations are needed to direct the reader to those sources to give credit to the writers and publishers. This avoids plagiarism, copyright violations, and unverifiable claims being added to articles. Sources should directly support the material as it is presented in an article, and should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require high-quality sources.

When I looked at the sources, I judged them unqualified and explained my reasons. Since you've been aggressive about keeping these, why don't you please give your reasons to disagree besides "there's no pleasing Pico"--because that's not a reason to abandon WP:V. Look - all you need is one good reference that says "most interpret Genesis creation as creation ex nihilo." Here's one that comes very, very close. "The creation of the universe by God is common to the monotheistic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam' reflection on creation has been most extensively developed in the Christian tradition. Creation is by a single supreme God, not a group of deities, and is an 'absolute' creation (creation ex nihilo, 'out of nothing') rather than being either a 'making' out of previously existing material or an 'emanation' (outflow) from God's own nature." Concise Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy. I say close, not perfect, because Genesis creation isn't specified and it's somewhat ambiguous about whether Jewish and Islam tradition are to be included here, or if it's speaking there of the "extensively developed" Christian tradition. Professor marginalia (talk) 03:29, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

<outdent> - Uh, Deadtotruth. Maher-shalal-hashbaz didn't remove the sources. And you've restored 2 gibberishly messed up references - at least - a sentence lifted almost word-for-word from the source (in other words copyrighted), and 2 other edits completely unrelated to the obsession you and EGMichaels have for ridiculously long stringing footnotes repeated five or six times for the same statement repeated over and over in a single article. But now you're here, how about you offer a justification for having them here at all. Thanks. Professor marginalia (talk) 03:41, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Professor -- I only own one of the books in question and did not add the references. I merely understood the reasons for their inclusion and appreciated their additions in the wake of an endless string of deletions. As you have granted, I tend to err on the side of supporting the work of other editors -- and will do the same for you if someone decides to delete your research rather than adjust it or move it. My additions to this article so far have been limited to Campbell and Wenham (mostly the latter). I noticed that you left my citations alone, and so I have no personal stake in the preservation or elimination of sources. However, as an editor I find that writing an encyclopedia is hard enough without having to continuously rewrite it, and that 95% of all disputed refs I've experienced belonged in this encyclopedia SOMEWHERE. In any case, since I do not own more than one of those books, I've asked you to deal with Deadtotruth before dismissing them. It could be that you two could agree to collaborate on the best use of these materials. Collaboration is always the best way to go, and now that you two have caught each other's attention, I wish the both of you best of luck. Hopefully Deadtotruth will give you far more respect than you have given him thus far.EGMichaels (talk) 04:10, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

And I urge you to ask yourself how you've followed your own advice. I didn't remove the sources. I cleaned them up, and I removed inline citations where I investigated those sources and was satisfied they didn't conform to WP:V. I'd be quite willing to demonstrate the amount of work I put into my changes and compare them to that put into your reverts. Nobody at WP is given the burden of hunting down the original editor behind an edit before changes are made. Nobody does this. And you certainly didn't contact me when you reverted changes I made. So your lectures to me are both unwarranted and unwelcome. This isn't about me. It's not about Deadtotruth or you. It's about the value of these references to the claim they're supposedly sourcing. If you don't know what the references say, get out of the way. Professor marginalia (talk) 04:24, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Professor -- as I said, I would do the same if someone were deleting your references without bothering to discuss it with you. Granted, things were difficult for me over the holiday and that is unfortunate. I assumed (wrongly) that Pico had simply ignored my request and did his daily deletion. I'm still playing catch up here and merely requesting that you discuss this with Deadtotruth (who is apparently poking his head in). If Deadtotruth were deleting your work without discussing it I would do the same for you. Misplaced Pages is built by working together, not by running each other over. Whenever I see a bulldozer I DO get "in the way." You'll appreciate it when it's your turn to be vandalized by someone else.EGMichaels (talk) 04:32, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I accept the value you put in your Code of Conduct regarding removal of sources. We can debate the pros and cons of this approach some other day. But for now, it's not policy; it's not a guideline; and it won't buy one an end-run around WP:V. So how about we do this. I won't focus on debating your policy. And you won't focus on my violations of it. Instead we both focus on WP:V and WP:RS. Can we agree to this? Professor marginalia (talk) 04:43, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Professor, I appreciate your offer, but there is a simpler way to do this: instead of arguing with me about why you don't want to talk to the editor you are deleting, why not just talk to the editor you are deleting? I'd ask him to do the same for you if he were, er, enhancing your hard work the way you have, ahem, enhanced his.EGMichaels (talk) 05:04, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Whatever. So why are you still focused on me? Professor marginalia (talk) 05:15, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Because you keep talking to me instead of the editor you keep deleting. Please discuss this with the editor in question and you may end up with an ally instead of a victim. That's called collaboration. EGMichaels (talk) 05:37, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

You're just digging your hole deeper. I made one revert. Your scoldings ring grow more hollow by the minute. Professor marginalia (talk) 05:57, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

And you continue talking to the wrong editor. You're spending a whole lot of effort to avoid a little bit of courtesy.EGMichaels (talk) 05:59, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Why don't you bring Deadtotruth here to talk? He's not replied to my invitation. Professor marginalia (talk) 06:06, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

You wrote him on his talk page? Sorry if I missed it. In any case, you'll see that Pico is now deleting my references to Wenham (as well as my ref to a text on Babylonian mythology). Please understand my legitimate concern about arbitrary deletion of sources. I feel bad that you stepped into it, but, well, you're here. Note that Alastair (below) has taken what I've admitted is your "good start" and gone a step further: viz, if you aren't satisfied with some sources, why not update them with better ones? I think that's the most collaborative way to go for a heavily disrupted article. I'm sure even Deadtotruth would not object to your finding BETTER sources, rather than just deleting. Granted, that would take real work -- but that's what we're all supposed to do here.EGMichaels (talk) 14:13, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I won't get roped into the sandbox warfare. One more time--we do not need a dozen references on a simple, basic statement. And no-references can't act as placeholders if they don't verify the claim they are attributed to. So if you want to continue to carry on about my failure to abide by your made-up rules, I intend to ignore those comments. Professor marginalia (talk) 16:44, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Professor, there is no "rule" that you work with other editors, use courtesy, and do research to improve articles -- but it's always the best route. If you don't want to do that, that's fine. I had hoped you would have. But you are ultimately your own person.EGMichaels (talk) 17:36, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

== We interupt coverage of the boxing match, for a message from the reliable sources who bring us this encyclopedia =="

• Gerhard von Rad, Genesis (translated from German by John H Marks)

It is correct to say that the verb bārā′, "create," contains the idea both of complete effortlessness and creatio ex nihilo, since it is never connected with any statement of the material. ... It is amazing to see how sharply little Israel demarcated herself from an apparently overpowering environment of cosmological and theogonic myths. Here the subject is not a primeval mystery of procreation from which the divinity arose, nor of a "creative" struggle of mythically personified powers from which the cosmos arose, but rather the one who is neither warrior nor procreator, who alone is worthy of the predicate, Creator.

The statement in the introduction reads, "The first narrative, Genesis 1:1–2:3, begins with the indeterminate period in which God created the heavens and the earth out of nothing (ex nihilo)". Neither "ex nihilo" or "out of nothing" (which apparently is the core dispute here) are in Genesis-they are interpretations of what Genesis implies. We need a source that comes right out and says in so many words "Genesis begins with creation of earth and heavens out of nothing" for that statement, or a source that verifies that's what everyone concludes it means. Since we know not everyone does interpret it this way, does this source go beyond the "argument for an interpretation of Genesis" to the level of general authority of consensus interpretation? Professor marginalia (talk) 06:43, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Here are four sources that meet your criteria. I will assume that your continued silence concerning these four sources indicates that you agree that they fulfill your criteria and I will add them to the article on April 5:

Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible, Unabridged, Genesis to Deuteronomy, by Matthew Henry see http://www.ccel.org/ccel/henry/mhc1.Gen.ii.html - “The manner in which this work was effected: God created it, that is, made it out of nothing. There was not any pre-existent matter out of which the world was produced. The fish and fowl were indeed produced out of the waters and the beasts and man out of the earth; but that earth and those waters were made out of nothing. By the ordinary power of nature, it is impossible that any thing should be made out of nothing; no artificer can work, unless he has something to work on. But by the almighty power of God it is not only possible that something should be made of nothing (the God of nature is not subject to the laws of nature), but in the creation it is impossible it should be otherwise, for nothing is more injurious to the honour of the Eternal Mind than the supposition of eternal matter. Thus the excellency of the power is of God and all the glory is to him.”

John Wesley’s notes on the whole Bible the Old Testament, Notes On The First Book Of Moses Called Genesis, by John Wesley, p.14 see http://www.ccel.org/ccel/wesley/notes.ii.ii.ii.i.html - “Observe the manner how this work was effected; God created, that is, made it out of nothing. There was not any pre-existent matter out of which the world was produced. The fish and fowl were indeed produced out of the waters, and the beasts and man out of the earth; but that earth and those waters were made out of nothing. Observe when this work was produced; In the beginning — That is, in the beginning of time. Time began with the production of those beings that are measured by time. Before the beginning of time there was none but that Infinite Being that inhabits eternity.”

Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible, Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown, 1871, Genesis chapter 1 see http://www.ccel.org/ccel/jamieson/jfb.x.i.i.html - “created--not formed from any pre-existing materials, but made out of nothing the heaven and the earth—the universe. This first verse is a general introduction to the inspired volume, declaring the great and important truth that all things had a beginning; that nothing throughout the wide extent of nature existed from eternity, originated by chance, or from the skill of any inferior agent; but that the whole universe was produced by the creative power of God.”

Commentaries on The First Book of Moses Called Genesis, by John Calvin, Translated from the Original Latin, and Compared with the French Edition, by the Rev. John King, M.A, 1578, Volume 1, Genesis 1:1-31 see http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom01.vii.i.html - “In the beginning. To expound the term “beginning,” of Christ, is altogether frivolous. For Moses simply intends to assert that the world was not perfected at its very commencement, in the manner in which it is now seen, but that it was created an empty chaos of heaven and earth. His language therefore may be thus explained. When God in the beginning created the heaven and the earth, the earth was empty and waste. He moreover teaches by the word “created,” that what before did not exist was now made; for he has not used the term יצר, (yatsar,) which signifies to frame or forms but ברא, (bara,) which signifies to create. Therefore his meaning is, that the world was made out of nothing. Hence the folly of those is refuted who imagine that unformed matter existed from eternity; and who gather nothing else from the narration of Moses than that the world was furnished with new ornaments, and received a form of which it was before destitute.” Deadtotruth (talk) 23:58, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

The sources given do state that. Please stop making unwarranted deletions.Deadtotruth (talk) 17:37, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I have found an additional source that we should add since it clearly states what you are asking for: "The manner in which this work was effected: God created it, that is, made it out of nothing. There was not any pre-existent matter out of which the world was produced. The fish and fowl were indeed produced out of the waters and the beasts and man out of the earth; but that earth and those waters were made out of nothing. By the ordinary power of nature, it is impossible that any thing should be made out of nothing; no artificer can work, unless he has something to work on. But by the almighty power of God it is not only possible that something should be made of nothing (the God of nature is not subject to the laws of nature), but in the creation it is impossible it should be otherwise, for nothing is more injurious to the honour of the Eternal Mind than the supposition of eternal matter. Thus the excellency of the power is of God and all the glory is to him." - Matthew Henry Commentary on GenesisDeadtotruth (talk) 01:05, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Here are several more that meet your criteria that we should add to the refs:

The manner how this work was effected; God created, tha tis, made it out of nothing. There was not any pre - existent matter out of which the world was produced. The fish and fowl were indeed produced out of the waters, and the beasts and man out of the earth; but that earth and those waters were made out of nothing. – Wesley’s Explanatory Notes

“created--not formed from any pre-existing materials, but made out of nothing.” Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown

“In the beginning. To expound the term “beginning,” of Christ, is altogether frivolous. For Moses simply intends to assert that the world was not perfected at its very commencement, in the manner in which it is now seen, but that it was created an empty chaos of heaven and earth. His language therefore may be thus explained. When God in the beginning created the heaven and the earth, the earth was empty and waste. He moreover teaches by the word “created,” that what before did not exist was now made; for he has not used the term יצר, (yatsar,) which signifies to frame or forms but ברא, (bara,) which signifies to create. Therefore his meaning is, that the world was made out of nothing. Hence the folly of those is refuted who imagine that unformed matter existed from eternity; and who gather nothing else from the narration of Moses than that the world was furnished with new ornaments, and received a form of which it was before destitute.” - John Calvin Commentary on Genesis Volume 1 Deadtotruth (talk) 01:31, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

@deadtotruth-are you referring your Forty Minutes with Einstein et al? If so, this comment is in the wrong section. Please see discussion here. If you dispute my conclusions, please discuss there. You'll need to quote some of the relevant passages, because I couldn't find them in those books. Professor marginalia (talk) 17:46, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

@deadtotruth-this will be the *third* time I've pointed you to this issue. You have added many references (nine?) that I am challenging. Do they verify the claim they are attributing? I failed to find they do. I have given my reasons here. If you want to retain these references here, you have to answer these concerns. What, exactly, (quotes need here), do these sources say that verify the statement they are referencing. You are here, I'm asking you to point out, specifically, how they verify the claim. Let's focus on those first--they are still there, and it's not just me but several editors who have concerns about them. Professor marginalia (talk) 03:22, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Quite so. The first line of Genesis opens with three things already in existence and not needing to be created: God, the Deep, and darkness. There's also the "wind of God", but it seems to be intimately associated with God and so perhaps shouldn't be counted as a separate entity. The Deep, which, incidentally, has no definite article (it's simply tahom, not ha-tahom), seems to correspond to the waters of chaos found in other ANE myths. This is the general modern understanding, and Wenham is in a distinct minority. PiCo (talk) 09:16, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I think you're missing the value of Prof. von Rad. He is very much one of the great writers of the "progressive mainstream". He is neither a dogmatic conservative, nor a dogmatic radical, just a celebrated scholar of biblical literature, especially the Old Testament, and especially Genesis, as it turns out. (Germans have dominated theology for more than 500 years.)

I'm somewhat surprised you're not taking a reliable source like Prof. von Rad seriously, you disagree with him perhaps?

Surely it can't be regarding what he says about the Hebrew verb bārā′, which you'll have to admit is extremely well known.

To rehearse basics, though, you'd know as well as everyone else that the verb occurs precisely 53 times in the Hebrew Bible.

It has wide cognate lexeme attestation in Arabic, Phoenician, Babylonian, Assyrian, Aramaic, Arabic and Sabaean.

In the Bible, it is used "always of divine activity" (BDB). More importantly, although Biblical Hebrew has other lexemes which take no subject other than God, what is special about bārā′ is that it also "is never connected with any statement of the material" .

For example, Genesis 2:7 says "Yahweh Elohim formed (Heb. yātsar) the man (Heb. ′adam) dust from the earth (Heb. ′adamah)."

Now, Prof. M., being familiar enough with sources on this topic to speak boldly about what is consensus amongst its scholars, will find it boring for me to point out that in this verse from Genesis 2, God's theta role is that of actor, but because the material from which he is doing his creating is explicit, Hebrew uses a different verb to bārā′, it uses yātsar.

So far, I'm presuming things are pretty clear. These are very well documented facts, unless Prof. M. has some reliable source of information I've not be made aware of.

So, there we have it, in black and white, the Hebrew uses a verb that implies ex nihilo. Not those very words, 'cause unless one has a very bizarre view of the date of composition of Genesis, the Latin phrase couldn't be found there, since the Latin language hadn't yet evolved when Genesis 1 was written or compiled.

Two streams of thought have competed with the plain meaning of the Hebrew. Very early in the history of Christianity, but late in the history of the Jews, Greek thought came to influence biblical interpretation. That story has been told and retold by scholars, with one man standing out by advancing the hypothesis that creation ex nihilo only became a Christian doctrine in reaction against this Greek influence. That scholar has his supporters, but I should think more opponents, and very many more who care not to comment.

A more substantial hypothesis that has been circulating for a little over a century is based on utilizing parallels Genesis may have with earlier ANE works recovered and deciphered a little earlier than that hypothesis was advanced. Parallels between Genesis and earlier material cannot be denied, even by the most conservative of scholars (though many did at first attempt this). However, differences between Genesis and earlier material are even more abundant, which has led, over a couple of generations of scholarship, to far less interest in the proposals that caused such a stir 100 years ago.

For many reasons, scholarship of biblical literature is far more eclectic these days than in times past. I think it would be hard to find consensus on many matters of interpretation. However, there is a countercurrent to that also. Thanks to a great deal of excellent lexicography and linguistics in the field of ancient languages, the meanings of words and the significance of inflections and syntax is much better undersood now than a century ago, and that data is certainly a matter of consensus (at least outside specialists in those ancient languages), most literary interpreters defer to the expertise of the linguists, though it's hard draw hard and fast lines between which scholars are purely literary and which purely linguistic.

Anyway, to conclude this response, I'll simply note that I'll be dropping in some reliable sources here that demonstrate the history of debate to this point on the question of creation ex nihilo, and I'd appreciate others co-operating with that project. I might be mistaken, but to my knowledge, creation ex nihilo is the standard reading of Genesis, other claims rest on demonstrating that early Christians thought differently influenced by Greek thought and some modern scholars think differently influenced by ANE cosmogony. The reader needs to know that Genesis 1:1-2 provoke an interesting question, in the light of other ancient writings, and that there are two points of view regarding an answer to that question. Alastair Haines (talk) 09:48, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Okay-I found a perfect one!

Most other theologies, even liberal and liberation sorts, presume, as we shall see, the creation from nothing. In other words, the creatio ex nihilo has reigned largely uncontested in the language of the church since the third century ACE. This doctrinal hegemony might not surprise us, but for the untoward fact that the Bible does not support it. As Jon Levenson summarizes the situation: “the overture to the Bible, Genesis 1.1-2.3, cannot be invoked in support of the developed Jewish, Christian, and Muslim doctrine of creatio ex nihilo.” 7 Among biblical scholars there has existed on this matter a near, if nervous, consensus for decades. The Bible knows only of the divine formation of the world out of a chaotic something: not creatio ex nihilo, but ex nihilo nihil fit ('from nothing comes nothing'), the common sense of the ancient world. Yet theological orthodoxy has from nearly its own beginnings insisted on reading its nihil into the first chapter." The Face of the Deep: A Theology of Becoming Catherine Keller Routledge 2002.

So I think here we've got it all. Ex nihilo is "presumed" and has been for 2 thousand years-and-the consensus of modern biblical scholars is that the "nothing" idea as it's come to mean is not really there. Problem solved so long as the statement is tweaked a little bit so that it's clear that Genesis is "interpreted to mean" "out of nothing". The intro isn't the place to digress into the debate - just introduce the concept. This reference is perfect-it establishes the significance of ex nihilo, it makes it clear the meaning of it is opinion, not objective fact, it is speaking specifically of Genesis creation and how all three traditions took it to mean, and both Keller and Levenson are authorities in theology-as opposed to authorities in astronomy and physics. Professor marginalia (talk) 16:16, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Matthew Henry, Wesley, Calvin, Jamieson, Fausset and Brown clearly refute keller and levenson. See Citations above. They are also much better known. It would seem that the half dozen or so refs are not enough so we should add these refs to the other refs.Deadtotruth (talk) 01:10, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

"Keller argues that the Enuma Elish, with its story of Marduk's battle with Tiamat, is a more probable interpretive framework for Genesis 1:1-2 than is creatio ex nihilo. Drawing from various Christian and Jewish exegetes, Keller argues that one can discern in Genesis 1:1-2 a hidden 'biblical tehomophilia'."

—Bradford McCall, Review descriptive summary of argument, positive conclusion

"According to Keller, this linear salvation history desperately wants to be straight, and, hence, suppresses all that does not fit its orderly structure: those 'who bear the mask of chaos, the skins of darkness, the genders of unspeakable openings' (p. 6)."

—Hilda P. Koster, Review in Anglican Theological Review

Catherine Keller represents at least two very well-known strands within theology, neither of which are consensus positions: firstly process theology and secondly feminist theology. Process theology has reasons to prefer creation not to be ex nihilo, observe the sub-title of the book, A theology of becoming. Feminist theology has reasons to prefer process theology also, but that's a long story.

I note that Keller drives a wedge between theology and biblical scholarship, placing herself in the latter category not the category of biblical scholars. "Most ... theologies ... presume ... creation from nothing ... ex nihilo has reigned largely uncontested ... since the third century." "Theological orthodoxy has from nearly its own beginnings insisted on reading ... nihil into the first chapter." Keller is claiming that biblical scholars are not theologians and have their own "near, if nervous, consensus".

Good for Keller, a theologian, by her own admission not a biblical scholar, stepping outside the consensus she claims for her own field, to disagree with it and side with the consensus she claims for biblical scholarship. I'm all for us documenting the views of theologians, though I'll be supplying mainly the work of theologians who are also biblical scholars, not in the opinion of Keller it seems, but at least in the opinion of publishers and other academics.

I'm curious, though, does Keller actually provide a review of the literature she claims shows a consensus for non ex nihilo readings? Or is all we've got Keller herself so far? Alastair Haines (talk) 18:11, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

More sources that speak to the history of the debate:

• Richard S. Hess, "One Hundred Fifty Years of Comparative Studies on Genesis 1--11: an overview", chapter 1 in Richard S. Hess and David Toshio Tsumura (eds), I studied inscriptions from before the flood: ancient Near Eastern, literary, and linguistic approaches to Genesis 1--11, (Eisenbrauns, 1994), pp. 3--.

• Russell E. Gmirkin, Berossus and Genesis, Manetho and Exodus: Hellenistic histories and the date of the Pentateuch, Copenhagen international seminar 15, Library of Hebrew Bible/Old Testament studies 433, (Continuum International, 2006).

@Alastair Haines-I don't for a minute pretend that Keller's view of creation is to replace ex nihilo here, and the opening in this article (which is all I'm focused on to start with) makes no claim about consensus of modern biblical scholars. It does demonstrate that ex nihilo predominates and that ex nihilo is not a universal interpretation. Since she's "writing for the enemy", so to speak, she's confirming ex nihilo's overall notability. If you dispute her conclusion about modern scholarly consensus that's fine. But that claim isn't made in the introduction here, and personally I don't think it belongs there. In other words, all we need to do is source, "The first narrative, Genesis 1:1–2:3, begins with the indeterminate period in which God created the heavens and the earth out of nothing (ex nihilo) or out of primordial waters / chaos." I think we should avoid trying to load this lead with the myriad of disputes over it. Professor marginalia (talk) 18:23, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I think that the text Professor intends to use is useful, although the claims of the author are somewhat suspect. The author is claiming more of a consensus before (for ex nihilo) and more of a consensus after (chaos) than may be warranted for either side. However, for NOTABILITY (as Professor seems to intend to use the source) it's probably as good as most of the ones offered thus far. It may be enough to find a source that says something to the effect of "it's difficult to find a commentary or theology covering this passage which does not address a position either for or against ex nihilo" (to establish notability). But the suggested reference of Professor is probably helpful to anchor the section.EGMichaels (talk) 18:51, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

@Prof. M. Good stuff. Yes, if the Keller quote is used to establish that there are two views, and still in tension, that is fine by me. That is a consensus point of view. All that would concern me is if her slant on theology and biblical scholarship even in this quote was also considered to be consensus, which it is not. It is a good quote, in the sense it establishes that there are two points of view. It is a bad quote, in the sense that it also makes other claims which are far from being supported by other sources. As regards Keller's claim that the majority of theologians still uphold creation ex nihilo, that is claimed by the source below also. (The reason it is so important to theistic theologians also is clear in this source.) Alastair Haines (talk) 18:56, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

"Today the majority of scholars who take seriously the mutually constructive interaction between theology and science support the core conviction that evolution is God's way of creating life. God is both the absolute, transcendent source of the universe and the continuing, immanent creator of biological complexity. God gives the universe its existence at every moment ex nihilo and is the ultimate source of nature's causal efficacy, faithfully maintaining its regularities which we describe as the laws of nature."

—Robert John Russell, "Special Providence and Genetic Mutation: A New Defense of Theistic Evolution", chapter 15 in Keith B. Miller, Perspectives on an evolving creation, (Eerdmans, 2003). Emphasis added.

I think we are on the same track here, Alastair. The quote itself claims too much. Notability, yes. The presence of two views, yes. But the near unanimity of a before and after shot and the claims being made on both sides regarding a claimed discomfort between biblical scholars and theologians is problematic.EGMichaels (talk) 19:02, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

We're making progress, but this work isn't explicitly talking about the meaning of the opening passages of the "genesis creation account". Remember this article is about the creation account in Genesis, not the doctrine of ex nihilo and the intriguing scientific quandaries that relate to it. The reference has to put the two together-we can't. Professor marginalia (talk) 19:11, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate what you are attempting to do (as I said about another matter as well) -- but the execution isn't exactly perfect (can't we say that about us all?). My citations from Wenham and Tediousness' citation from the 2 Peter commentary certainly demonstrate the existence of multiple views. Indeed, just the other day I included more detail from Wenham that lists not two but four different constructions of the Hebrew syntax -- three of which presume creation from chaos, and one leaning toward creation ex nihilo (or something like it). You may find it interesting that this precise footnote was deleted last night and restored just before the lockdown of the article. In any case, my point is that we do not need (per se) a quote that puts the two views together. That's already been done by the Wenham citations I restored. Yes, putting the two together is HELPFUL, but the particular citation you supplied isn't. Process Theology is a well known POV and should be represented. Your citation appears to represent Process Theology. Check. Your citation appears to show that there are two views. Again, check. But your citation goes way too far to claim unanimity among THEOLOGIANS toward ex nihilo (when Process Theologians are already an exception) and unanimity among BIBLICAL SCHOLARS toward chaos (when Wenham and a host of others can show otherwise). You started well, but found a very awkward citation with rather unfortunately overblown claims. I have to admit that I'm less comfortable with your own citation than some of the ones you deleted (and please bear in mind I've reffed BOTH sides of the equation here). I would say, though, that your first attempt was really very good. It just went WAY too far. There are multiple views, but no unanimity in either camp for one side or the other. At best she could have argued tendencies and even normative tendencies -- but her wording is unfortunate.EGMichaels (talk) 21:11, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm not married to that cite. I'm fine with finding a better one-however we don't need to get so hung up over "going too far" because the parts that you say have "gone too far" aren't going into the article anyway. (We're not quoting her). However any cite used there must directly, explicitly, associate ex nihilo to the Genesis account. Given the degree to which this has been a subject of dispute, I'm not being pedantic about this distinction. To move past this we need a good citation and the reference used has to directly verify the claim. That's not negotiable. The no original research policy is quite clear that you can't source a single claim by joining pieces of it from two different references to construct an argument for it. Find one good, solid and authoritative source that says it, that explicitly identifies it as a widely accepted interpretation of genesis, and we can move on. Two would be great. Professor marginalia (talk) 21:31, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, we still have Wenham. Alastair or yourself could find another commentary or two (most of my excess are either loaned out or in storage -- and I donated a lot to a seminary a few years ago that I now regret). As for theologians, I think Erickson has a good habit of citing other theologians in different traditions, but I've loaned out my copy. All I have at the moment is Berkhof. In any case, I think that the best sources for a heavily disputed issue would be biblical commentaries and perhaps a "theology of the old testament" (I just looked for mine and it might be packed up somewhere from a recent move).

To your "no original research" point, let's not paint ourselves into a corner. It's fair to say that a point of view can be found in a certain tradition or discipline and give examples. That's not really original research because it's not making a value claim. It's just "some people think this" and show some people who do. One need not drive himself crazy finding a source that explicitly says "some people think this" because it's not a value claim. Some people think all kinds of things. An example of a POV is sufficient to document that a POV exists, without crossing the line of "no original research." I'm sure someone will argue with me there, and I'd agree that it's BETTER to find a third party that quotes several other parties to make the point that "some people think thus and so."

Where "no original research" is crossed is when someone tried to make a substantive claim that something is or is not a normative view. It doesn't matter how many examples you cited, you can't claim "normative" on your own. You'd need a sources that SAID "normative" or "fringe." But just documenting that a view existed merely needs an example or two.EGMichaels (talk) 22:01, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Wenham wasn't among the cites given for that claim, so I haven't investigated it. Wenham is far superior to Forty Minutes with Einstein and that set. So why wasn't it used instead? (Short version) Professor marginalia (talk) 23:12, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Never mind-looked back a bit in the archives. Ex nihilo is not a normative definition of creation nor universal interpretation, and it is not a fringe interpretation. It should be possible to word that statement better. I'm going to think about this awhile. In any event, the published conclusions drawn from Einstein and Hawking are completely trivial to the dispute-those sources don't and can't help at all. Professor marginalia (talk) 00:27, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Professor -- not sure why you are still arguing Hawking and Einstein. I had no vested interest in those refs and did not make them. I merely requested that you touch base with the editor who had added them in case there was something you missed. It's a simple courtesy that you would appreciate yourself. And, in fact, the editor who added those refs has stated here that he is satisfied with the current article (sans those refs). No fight was necessary (nor threats from Aunt). In any case, I had previously tweaked the wording around Deadtotruth's refs so that they were not being used as the basis for understanding Genesis itself as ex nihilo, but rather mere examples of people in other fields who had done so. In other words, I had taken the value judgment "teeth" out of the refs and left them as examples of "some people think so".

In any case, I think everyone here is missing something very important that Wenham did say (and this is my fault). While creation from chaos has Babylonian mythological parallels, creation ex nihilo has Egyptian parallels. Wenham has noted this in his commentary, and this certainly needs inclusion. Regardless of whether one actually believes the Israelites sojourned in Egypt, the fact that they CLAIMED to have done so establishes a literary link with Egypt. The Egyptian Leiden Hymns establish the "I Am!" God who created all things -- including himself. While Wenham does not specifically state that this particular hymn is a direct precedent, we can certainly use Wenham's statement regarding the Egyptian ex nihilo connection and cite that Leiden Hymn as an example without violating "no original research."

What's important to realize is that ex nihilo and chaos is not a demythologizing or mythologizing argument per se, since both find parallels in ancient literature of the two lands in which the Hebrews claimed to have come: Egypt and Babylon.EGMichaels (talk) 00:23, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

<sigh> I'm not directing my comments at you, egmichaels. Note, Wenham is not sourcing that claim. Einstein and Hawking are! It's relevant to the discussion then, isn't it? Can we agree now those references don't belong, and have them removed at least? The quality of sources do matter and they are still there.Professor marginalia (talk) 01:39, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that they were still there. Apologies, but Shabbat intervened and I missed the changes. I had thought that they had been removed before the article was locked down, and that was what Deadtotruth had responded affirmatively to. All I've ever asked is that you touch base with him to see if he saw something in the refs you might have missed. It happens all the time. It would have taken you two a few minutes, rather than all the rest of us days and hours. Granted, you might have had to wait for him to pop in, but a little note on his talk page would have brought him straight by, I'm sure. Still don't know why collaboration is such a difficult thing. Well -- the article doesn't open back up for a while yet. You guys can probably reach an agreement pretty easily -- most editors DO agree to a little tweaking and improvement of sources if you give them the time of day.EGMichaels (talk) 01:45, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

This is an "anyone can edit" and "Verifiability means that anyone should be able to check the sources to verify that material in a Misplaced Pages article has already been published by a reliable source, as required by this policy" and "Substandard or disputed information is subject to removal" wiki. And in honor of the wiki and this special time of the year, I accept your apology, and with magnanity leave the rest to you so you may enjoy your own posturing as much as you like. Professor marginalia (talk) 03:13, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Of course anyone can edit, and of course we should double check the sources. As I said, you STARTED well. I merely encouraged you double check with Deadtotruth to see if he saw something you didn't. You've spent eight times as much effort avoiding that as it would have to have simply followed my suggestion. It's best to co-opt other editors in a collaborative manner if you want to avoid a bunch of battles. Courtesy isn't posturing. It's just... being polite.EGMichaels (talk) 03:18, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

If you go back to the top of this thread, the quote from Gerhard von Rad is taken from his famous commentary on Genesis, and from a section specifically dealing with Genesis 1.

Von Rad is famous for taking on board unorthodox approaches to the Bible, and for producing new methodologies. He was a participant in the debate regarding the German project to "demythologize" the Bible. He is a notable scholar par excellance, both a theologian and a biblical scholar in the estimation of his peers, of very diverse convictions.

Not all theologians and biblical scholars can be presumed to be partisan. Indeed, unless a scholar self-identifies as a process theologian or whatever, that cannot be reasoned by Wiki editors, but only established by published self-disclosure, or by a peer's published conclusion from their works.

I have been generally been chosing sources based on the stature of the writers involved. That is, people whose opinions are valued, by even their opponents, as being the very best of scholarship. In many cases they have wide followings, in other cases they are the "non-paper-tigers" that are engaged with as the gold standard voice for the opposition.

Von Rad will not cease influencing scholarship for some decades to come at least. The words of the Bible have not changed for 1500 years at least (probably much longer). It is rare for interpretation of those words to change much over time. Scientific discoveries have radically altered interpretation of the Bible at various points in history. The ANE documents raised questions. The documentary hypothesis raised others. We do understand the Bible better as a result of that data and that hypothesis. The sexual revolution also prompted a desire to reinterpret the Bible, though it's probably relatively too recent to guage whether any genuine new understanding has resulted as yet.

One way or another, there really has been a lot of discussion of new understandings of what the Bible actually says over the last hundred years. However, stepping back from it all, the final result is more like tweaking than the revolutions in new knowledge we see regularly in (other) sciences.

Von Rad is a first class source for the ex nihilo position: a famous, non-partisan source.

Of course, he is not a source for how many people still agree with him now, but there are very many. It would be odd if there weren't. Things don't generally move very fast in theology (which is possibly why its a field little ol' me thinks he might try to keep up with). As a general rule, sources that claim radical new theologies or interpretations of the Bible are suspect. Too many very great minds have applied themselves to the issues. If you want to break new ground, you're better off in other disciplines. Alastair Haines (talk) 11:23, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Hello Professor, I'm still waiting for a response to my earlier questions: 1) which sources do you not have access to that you need quotes from. I posted some of the easier ones to get things rolling. 2) You introduced a new criteria that you would like the refs to meet and I have supplied four additional refs that I believe meet your new criteria to add to the group. This is now the third request for a response concerning the four additional refs. Also you asked for the info on Calvin and now that I have gone to the trouble of supplying the info a response would be appreciated. I don't necessarily agree with your criteria for the refs since it comes from a specific POV IMO, but I am willing to try to accomodate you if I can in order to reach a consensus. Unless I hear a reasonable objection from you concerning the four additional refs (Calvin, Henry, Wesley, Jameison et al) I will add them to the article on 4/5/10. I am trying to understand your criteria and a response concerning the four refs that I believe meet your criteria would be helpful in trying to understand your requests concerning refs for ex nihilo.Deadtotruth (talk) 00:15, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

@deadtotruth. I'm not going to repeat the list I want quotes from because I've repeated it to you so many times, here on this talk page and also here. Your new sources are a completely separate issue. No, they don't "refute" Keller and Levenson--(Matthew Henry, John Wesley, John Calvin, and Robert Jamieson lived and died before the period that Keller and Levenson are referring to in their claims that Alastair takes issue with.)

I'm going to stop you short here to emphasize that I don't think you understand at all what I did. I did not remove any content. I did not remove the ex nihilo claim in the article. I removed nine out-and-out ridiculous sources used to quote/unquote verify it. Sources that cannot be defended, even by you, since you've made it clear you won't do so, or EGMichaels who, despite edit warring to keep them, has no defense to offer for them except I was "discourteous" to you for not asking your leave personally, on your talk page, before I removed them. Having now asked you, several times, and failing still to get a satisfactory explanation for keeping them, I'm optimistic that all the barriers have been removed and we can finally go forward and have them removed. And as a bonus to all the article's readers and talk page bystanders we can stop cluttering both the main space and talk space with these irrelevant 9 sources.

Many legit verifiable sources have been put forth to support that claim that have dissolved into edit wars because they aren't "perfect" in one way or another. In stark contrast, these nine I've disputed didn't qualify at even a rudimentary level. Even at WP, one can't sidestep valid disputes and try to ascend Mt Intractable by stacking up a 9 stepped tower of steaming cowpies. Professor marginalia (talk) 07:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Lets' see what we've established so far:

1. By his own admission the professor removed refs before he checked their content (violation of WP unwarranted deletion policy). Even now he has indicated that he plans a mass deletion of nine refs even though he has indicated that two refs in the group, yonge and schaff, are acceptable. Thus any action on the part of the professor to delete the yonge and schaff refs is not just an unwarranted deletion but vandalism since he has accepted the validity of those refs. 2. The professor created an unreasonable requirement that all refs concerning ex nihilo contain the phrase "out of nothing." This would disqualify the works of Plato and Aristotle who also didn't use the phrase "out of nothing." I refer the professor to the article in wikipedia concerning ex nihilo. The key phrases in ex nihilo terminology are "first cause" and "beginning." The septuagint version of Genesis 1:1 contains the same terminology as Plato with the greek word "ἀρχῇ" which can be translated as "primary cause." The nine refs in question use terminology consistent with the wikipedia article on ex nihilo. The professor's requirement would be tantamount to requiring any mention of the Christian concept of the rapture refer only to Bible verses that contain the word "rapture" which of course doesn't appear in the Bible. So using the professor's fallacious logic the Bible doesn't refer to ex nihilo or to the rapture. Biblical commentators, theologians, layman, etc. have discussed both of these concepts in relation to specific Biblical passages even though those passages don't contain the words "out of nothing" or "rapture." So the professor's hyperbolic requirement is without any academic or logical foundation and is therefore not valid. 3. Ex Nihilo as used by scientists is with respect to either the universe having a beginning or point of origin. With the proof of the hubble constant of an expanding universe - physicists including Einstein accepted the concept that the universe had a beginning or point of origin similar to the Ex Nihilo concept. The refs I've supplied support or address the views of scientists concerning the universe having a beginning or point of origin. 4. More references demonstrating the connection between Genesis and ex nihilo, spacetime, the Big Bang are needed since hyperbolic attacks such as those launched by the professor aren't completely addressed. Thus the four refs from Calvin, Jamieson, Wesley and Henry and the additional ref to Smoot p. 17 should be added to this article since they contain the words "Genesis" and "out of nothing." These five refs meet the professor's requirement and so far he has failed to indicate any deficiency in these refs. 5. Additional sections are needed in this article since tedentious editors such as the professor want to contentiously address as separate topics the overlapping concepts in ex nihilo, spacetime, the big bang theory. Thus two additional sections should be added to address spacetime and the big bang theory in addition to ex nihilo. Deadtotruth (talk) 16:25, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

This is absolutely ridiculous. A Mad Hatter's Tea Party:

1. There are 11 refs to the claim. Douglas 1956; Smoot & Davidson 1993, pp. 30, 189; Herbert 1985, p. 177; Parker 1988, p. 202; Fain 2007, pp. 30-36; Heeren 2000, pp. 107-108, 121, 135, 157; Schaff 1995; Clontz 2008; Jastrow 1992, p. 14; Ellis 1993, p. 97; Yonge 1993 And 11 - 2 = 9. I left Yonge and Schaff alone, and haven't threatened to remove them. I left them because at least some plausible case can be made to keep them, whereas the other 9 clearly don't belong. And I know exactly where you got 8 of them-and it wasn't from researching ex nihilo in those works themselves, but you cherry picked them directly from here. I know this because you copied and pasted the citations, format, pagination, and missed attribution errors included. Of those 9 I removed, (7 I verified prior, 1 I removed because it was a New Testament translation and Genesis 1 is not in the New Testament, and the last Before the Beginning was yet another Big Bang themed essay by an astronomer and publicized by a now gone publishing house that concentrated on works that were "totally unusual and about a world unknown to most English and American readers"(owner Catheryn Kilgarriff). In defense of using it as a reference you quote this passage, "To make sense of this view (design as opposed to accident), one must accept the idea of transcendence: that the Designer exists in a totally different order of reality or being, not restrained within the bounds of the Universe itself". And in no way does that statement verify that Genesis 1 begins with creation "out of nothing". My removal of those references was then, and remains now, 100% justified.
2. Now you say Plato and Aristotle are valid sources of the interpretation of Genesis 1 also? Still joking, I see.

No, I said that Plato and Aristotle are valid sources for the interpreation of Ex Nihilo.

1. I've told you before but ex nihilo does not mean "having a point of origin". It means "out of nothing". Big Bang, as I explained to you, is not "out of nothing", and the Big Bang is not Genesis 1. It may well be that part of your problem is that you don't really understand exactly what creatio ex nihilo from Genesis 1 is all about, or what we need to source it here.

You apparently don’t understand the Big Bang theory or the importance of the Hubble constant. Einstein originally based his theories on a universe that wasn’t expanding. If the universe was expanding then it had a beginning and if it had a beginning then something or someone extra-universal started the universe in his original view. Einstein’s understanding was that if the universe was expanding then not only did it have a beginning but that the beginning was caused by God. Einstein as a scientist ruled out the possibility of an expanding universe and therefore God as a cause. He only accepted the expanding universe after he was faced with incontrovertible physical proof that the universe was expanding (the work of Hubble). This led Einstein to explore the possibility that the universe was caused by God. This also made Hubble famous since he de facto proved Einstein wrong on an important aspect of the physical universe.

1. If you add any more of the Einstein spacetime garbage to source a claim about what Genesis 1 says, I promise I'll be giving it a lot of scrutiny-again...

Your statement is nothing more than POV and indicates that you are not interested in a NPOV article.

1. I'm far happier to let Calvin or Jamieson source that claim than Einstein and Hawking. But what you don't seem to grasp here is...there are other editors here that have been calling to use more recent references to biblical scholarship which encompass the diversity of opinions about what Genesis 1 means. But nobody can in all seriousness pretend those 9 works I've challenged qualify as authorities on "biblical scholarship".

Actually before I showed up no one was much interested in sources of any kind for this article. Part of the rope a dope is that they want the references to go away under any pretense. They have had plenty of time to offer more recent references and I would welcome more references. Most of the references I supplied are recent in any meaningful sense of scholarship. As an aside, Pico doesn't want Schaff used for Augustine. No one disputes the accuracy of the quotes for Augustine and in fact the book is recent printing 1990's since it is still a valid and useful reference for the works of Augustine.

I don't have the time to devote to arguing with you for hours on end about this (we've gotten nowhere so far), and I may be too busy for the next few days to reply to any new baseless accusations you may decide to launch against me, but if you're patient you'll find me most willing to redress them when I free up the time. Professor marginalia (talk) 17:38, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

fair enoughDeadtotruth (talk) 00:44, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

The key question, professor, is whether Smoot, the nobel laureate in physics in 2006, is an authority on scientific scholarship. Unquestionably and indisputably he is. Furthermore, he is one of the world's foremost experts on the big bang theory. Smoot is explicit in connecting the Genesis creation myth with modern scientific views on the beginning of the universe including ex nihilo. There is no justification for trying to delete the refs from Smoot or for trying to block the addition of refs from him. These refs unquestionably belong in the article since they are from a world renown expert who is contemporary.

Wrinkles in Time, George Smoot and Keay Davidson, New York: William Morrow and Company, 1993, (p. 17: “There is no doubt that a parallel exists between the big bang as an event and the Christian notion of creation from nothing.”) (p. 30: “Until the late 1910’s humans were as ignorant of cosmic origins as they had ever been. Those who didn’t take Genesis literally had no reason to believe there had been a beginning.”) (p. 189: “The question of ‘the beginning’ is as inescapable for cosmologists as it is for theologians.”)

So far, I seem to be the only one quoting nobel prize winners (Smoot, Einstein) and I find it incredible that their views are being challenged as scholarly or relevant. Of course, this is the page with the editors who want the founder of Misplaced Pages, Wales, to justify his view on changing the title of this article back to the original. I believe that you should revisit the Smoot quotes. This is not an article on biblical scholarship - it is an article on the creation myth and myths are full of different perspectives including those held by nobel prize winnners.Deadtotruth (talk) 00:04, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Since the professor maintains that he doesn't have acess to any of the refs, I reluctantly am forced to place the info for the remaing refs below. I'm not posting the info from fain since it is not public domain and six pages would violate copyright laws. I have re-checked the page numbers and in a few cases found a discrepancy which I corrected. Below is the remaining material requested by the professor:

Wrinkles in Time, George Smoot and Keay Davidson, New York: William Morrow and Company, 1993, (p. 30: “Until the late 1910’s humans were as ignorant of cosmic origins as they had ever been. Those who didn’t take Genesis literally had no reason to believe there had been a beginning.”)

Wrinkles in Time, George Smoot and Keay Davidson, New York: William Morrow and Company, 1993, (p. 189: “The question of ‘the beginning’ is as inescapable for cosmologists as it is for theologians.”)

Creation—the Story of the Origin and Evolution of the Universe, Barry Parker, New York & London: Plenum Press, 1988, (p. 202: “If we accept the big bang theory, and most cosmologists now do, then a ‘creation’ of some sort is forced upon us.”)

Yonge, Charles Duke (1854). "Appendices A Treatise Concerning the World (1), On the Creation (16-19, 26-30), Special Laws IV (187), On the Unchangeableness of God (23-32)". The Works of Philo Judaeus: the contemporary of Josephus. London: H. G. Bohn. http://cornerstonepublications.org/Philo.

Clontz, T.E. and J. (2008). "The Comprehensive New Testament with complete textual variant mapping and references for the Dead Sea Scrolls, Philo, Josephus, Nag Hammadi Library, Pseudepigrapha, Apocrypha, Plato, Egyptian Book of the Dead, Talmud, Old Testament, Patristic Writings, Dhammapada, Tacitus, Epic of Gilgamesh. Cornerstone Publications. ISBN 978-0-977873-71-5. (p. 473 Philo; p. 494 Philo[Appendices A Treatise Concerning the World (1) cf. {Genesis 1:1, Deuteronomy 10:17})

The Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers First Series, Volume 1 The Confessions and Letters of Augustine with a Sketch of his Life and Work, 1896, Philip Schaff, Augustine Confessions - Book XI.11-30 (CHAPTER 11

Deadtotruth (talk) 17:31, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

The text under consideration re: ex nihilo

I'm hearing some odd claims from people presenting their own PsoV on the topic, waving their arms in the general direction of scholarship, without citing even one scholar. As impressive as some of those views may sound, some of them don't even stand up under verification against the raw text.

Hebrew and English both read outwards from centre: Hebrew right-to-left, English left-to-right.

There also seems to be a bad habit at Misplaced Pages, whereby we permit people to make unsourced generalizations about scholarship on a topic, which are actually much harder claims to verify than the claims made any particular scholar on that topic. On big topics, even scholars admit they have not read everything there is to read.

"I'm not citing a source, because everyone knows that every scholar says this" is nearly always demonstrably false, but often gains support if it expresses a popular PoV. Scholars may present conclusions, but they don't vote, they publish evidence and arguments. It is not the job of Misplaced Pages to take a poll of scholars' conclusions, but to document the evidence they present and their arguments. Alastair Haines (talk) 10:42, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Alastair, I have to say that you are a breath of fresh air. Instead of complaining about sources you don't like, you are volunteering to do actual work by updating and improving sources on a contested text -- and I appreciate your requests to others to do the same. Bravo!

On an aside, yasher koach to your "Creation in Genesis" new approach.

Not on an aside, yasher koach to your irenic disection of the Gordian knot here.

Yes, scholarship is never as monolithic as we are often led to believe. Indeed, even your own excellent illumination of Hebrew here is not without nuances of its own. Your "in-beginning" is a lovely way of blandly expressing the Hebrew in a way which contains the contested "In (the) beginning God" and "When God began". Although I think that "When God began" does not preclude ex nihilo, it certainly opens a door. "in-beginning" sticks to the bare Hebrew, leaves the door ajar, and doesn't push anything through that doesn't need to go through. In the beginning God and When God began can both cheerfully step through chatting with each other arm in arm.

I'd like to add to your point about eclectic views that "spirit of God hovering" and "wind from God sweeping" are also allowed. Although I prefer the former, we should probably leave the latter open for some folks.EGMichaels (talk) 13:59, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

How about "an almighty belch/wind passing over the waters", after devouring Tiamat, perhaps? ;) Alastair Haines (talk) 05:39, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

I'd be happy to add some Orthodox Jewish scholarship on the subject. The verb ברא is absolutely understood as meaning ex nihilo in Hebrew. It is juxtaposed with יצר, which is creation from something. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 15:10, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Lisa! I envy your command of Jewish sources. Please add them!EGMichaels (talk) 15:28, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

My thanks also Lisa. You've said in two lines what took me rather longer in discussion of von Rad above. Alastair Haines (talk) 18:16, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't have a lot of time to look, but you can start with these three:

• The Kabbalah handbook, Gabriella Samuel, page 384, link

• Chabad.org link

• Challenge, Aryeh Carmell, Cyril Domb, page 397, note 33, link - Lisa (talk - contribs) 22:30, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I'm pushing 18... Lisa, what about Jewish commentaries? Do you have some that you prefer?EGMichaels (talk) 23:07, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Jewish commentaries won't be much use - the idea of that Genesis 1 means creation ex nihilo doesn't appear in the rabbinic souces before the 4th century, even later than in Christianity. Nor was it the normative position of the rabbis - Rashi, for example, went to some lengths to demonstrate that the translation "Ïn the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" is wrong. PiCo (talk) 08:40, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Edit protected version of April 4

The edit protected version looks great. I would object to the deletion of material from this version but would support any scholarly supported additions.Deadtotruth (talk) 17:44, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for poking in, Deadtotruth. It's difficult to keep someone in mind after a day or two. In any case, I take it that you have reviewed the refs dealt with by Professor and don't object to the current list of refs? As I said to the Professor, I have no personal stake in refs that I didn't create and cannot reproduce, but I do like it when we slow down enough to include people who took the time to add them.

The existing refs can certainly be built upon, and Professor has found one or two he'd like to add. I'd like to see him do so, and am glad that you would too.EGMichaels (talk) 18:04, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

BTW, Professor -- welcome to collaboration. If you INCLUDE the relevant editors they may even approve of your edits. Granted, it may not feel so triumphant, but it gets us all there together.EGMichaels (talk) 18:09, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Cosmogony

The term "cosmogony" is a perfect alternative to "myth". The former term is less distracting and more specific.
By contrast, "myth" is an awfully loaded term, similar in some ways to "cult". Yes, sociologists may use "cult" with a discreet specific neutral definition of the term, but the hoi polloi overwhelmingly use the word "cult" as a pejorative with which to demean an unpopular religion.
Per WP:WTA#Religion, Misplaced Pages already avoids "cult". Per WT:WTA#Myth and Legend, it seems advisable for us also to avoid "myth". The term "cosmogony" would allow us to do that.
A separate approach would be to continue the former "Creation according to..." nomenclature beyond the article concerning Genesis. It seems indisputable that such article names would be less likely to become distractions unto themselves. Consider:

• Creation according to Genesis tradition
• Creation according to ancient Egyptian religion
• Creation according to the Baluba
• Creation according to ancient Chinese religion
• Creation according to pre-Columbian Mesoamerica
• Creation according to Earth-maker tradition
• Creation according to Sumer
• Creation according to Olympian tradition
• Creation according to Pelasgian tradition

Of course, my preference still involves the pithy term: ]'''. --AuthorityTam (talk) 20:06, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Don't forget "Creation in..." As a literary study we could have an article for "Creation in... the Silmarillion" just as easily as "Creation in... the Koran" or "Creation in... the Bible" or "Creation in... The Chronicles of Amber". "In" merely designates a portion of a piece of literature, and says nothing about truth or falsehood.EGMichaels (talk) 21:17, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Cosmogony is a great designator, used by reliable sources and invites questions of comparative literature abundantly discussed in reliable sources. It invites discussion of myth and pre-extant matter and so on. I, for one, love it.

Silmarillion Cosmology and Qur'an (or Qur'anic) Cosmology might be a little cumbersome, but Cosmology permits both mythos and serious reflection like Science or Scientific Cosmology (which I spend happy hours learning about from online documentaries, and some quality Wiki articles).

Like EGM, though, my favourite remains the "less is more" Creation in Genesis. Creation, hijacked though the term has been, is a high probability of being a word used by readers seeking a page like this one.

BUT, thanks Tam (Tamara? love that name), fwiw I'm happy to submit to the clarity and authority of your proposal and cast my lot with Genesis Cosmology should Creation in Genesis go belly up. :)) Alastair Haines (talk) 05:33, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

After further thought, I like cosmogony even more. I don't think it is suitable for the title, because it is not WP:UCN. However, I think it is the WP:NPOV term of choice for the article text itself (after suitable definition, which is not hard, it means precisely what the Greek it is taken from means). It means "origin of the universe", no more, no less. The important thing is it does not commit Misplaced Pages to the assumption that there was a Creator or creators. Misplaced Pages can have no opinion on such a thing, it can only report from published sources of alternative PsOV, descriptively not evaluatively, from the WP:NPOV.

In dealing with Tolkien's Silmarillion, "creation" is less problematic because no one seriously claims the Silmarillion as containing truth-claims regarding the origins of the actual universe. On the other hand, Genesis is widely claimed to imply a truth claim about the origin of the universe--there was a Creator--however diverse the views regarding the literary form of expression in which this claim is presented.

Additionally, "cosmogony" allows use of "theogony", which is a common designator used for key parts of ANE traditions regarding the origins of the universe, and contrasted with Genesis. Indeed, it is probably the key difference in the opinion of most scholars who speak to questions of comparison (though I myself want to verify that from actual sources).

Again I thank AuthorityTam for her(?), imo, ideal choice of terminology. Alastair Haines (talk) 10:15, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

nice find! Yeah, I'd be happy with Cosmogony in Genesis or Cosmogony of Genesis. However, we should probably then seek out standardizing that naming convention for other creation story articles on WP:VPP, to avoid any semblance of favoritism. — The Hand That Feeds You: 22:17, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Cosmogony in Genesis would be acceptable. I also agree that all other articles having "creation myth" in their titles must be reviewed and renamed to match this new naming scheme. The only issue I see with this title is that it is unlikely that anybody would come to this article by typing "Genesis Cosmogony" in the search box... · CUSH · 22:25, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

You identified the problem with this new label yourself: it's quite arcane, and it too violates WP:TITLE. The phrase creation myth seems to be one of the few that is both widely recognized by the public and widely used by academics.UBER 22:47, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

I have two remarks: 1. Maybe the title should be "Biblical creation myth" instead of restricting it to Genesis (so references from other parts of the bible could be used). 2. Maybe there should be a distinction between Jewish and Christian interpretations, because in Christianity it is often assumed that the actual act of creation was performed by Jesus instead of Yahweh (Milton elaborates this in Paradise Lost). · CUSH · 22:56, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

I support Biblical creation myth because the article could be much broader in its coverage.UBER 23:01, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Against Cosmogony in Genesis-there is more to the creation story than the cosmogony. It has very significant religious "moral and purpose" aspects as well. That said, it is not just a creation myth--unlike most myth, it's a scriptural theology also (more than one). The cosmogony is merely the "birth of the universe" aspect. The first passages in Genesis have many facets, chiefly myth, religious, scriptural theology, and cosmogony. The cosmogony, I'd argue, if not exactly of "lesser significance" than the rest would have relatively little content to focus on than some of these other elements. I think the article should address all these things, but it shouldn't lump them all under the one label "cosmogony". Professor marginalia (talk) 00:08, 4 April 2010 (UTC) -further comment. A cosmological myth is a type of creation myth, but the Big Bang and cosmological myths are types of cosmologies. The article on cosmology here (while it's in terrible shape at the moment) is supposedly intent to focus on scientific cosmologies. If Creation according to Genesis has been a source of irritation to science advocates, I doubt that Cosmology end up being more stable than Genesis creation myth or Creation according to Genesis. Professor marginalia (talk) 00:17, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Which creation myth exactly is not a (scriptural) theology? The only distinction I can see is that in other creation myths humans are not at the center of divine purpose but are rather subject to the gods' capriciousness. · CUSH · 00:22, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Most of them aren't. This is overstated some, but generally speaking the Scriptural theologies are in the Abrahamic religions. Most creation myths come from oral traditions-they aren't based on "holy books" or "holy scriptures". They are very different in character because there isn't a written text that demands exacting analysis to determine the "holy truths" contained in them. This is leads to a very different kind of relationship to the creation story than the ancient Greeks had to theirs, for example. Professor marginalia (talk) 01:15, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

What does it matter how a creation myth is passed from generation to generation? A theology does not rely on scripture but on the content of such scripture. It would be just as much a theology if it were not written down. BTW that is why the Catholic Church does not dwell so much on scripture but relies on ongoing interaction with the "divine". My point was that all myths contain some kind of theology. · CUSH · 14:14, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Let keep it simple, obscure terms dont seem to cut it, if we got to have a note explaining what a word means then its probably to a good idea. lets not make the Reader work to understand the article. The average laymen wont understand what the word means thumbing through an article.Weaponbb7 (talk) 00:22, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

With due deference to my educated friends, while I understand the word "cosmogony" (and can even translate it into plain English) it would never occur to me to look for an article on Genesis creation using that term. In the same way, it would never occur to me to look for an article on Genesis creation using the term "myth." Look, folks, we ALREADY know that Genesis creation myth is insufficient because we need Creation according to Genesis in order to pull in readers! Why insist on titles no reader would think to look for? We can make ourselves feel very important and academic, to be sure, but if we don't pull in any readers, what's the point? It's like Exegetegical soteriological hermeneutics of Saul of Tarsus -- while maybe more "academic" than Salvation in Paul's letters, the latter title is certainly more prone to be FOUND by someone looking for the subject!EGMichaels (talk) 00:39, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Don't start all over again, dude. How is "Genesis creation myth" insufficient? Genesis certainly is a myth. Otherwise you need to come up with reliable and verifiable sources that feature solid evidence for Genesis being an accurate account of anything (heck, even the non-creation parts lack any scientific archaeological and historical basis). And Genesis is certainly a creation myth, because it is a narrative of the creation and organization of the world as understood in a particular tradition, and it involves the supernatural.

Now the question how readers will access the page is a completely different consideration. You cannot allow unsubstantiated claims being introduced into the title just to lure more readers. · CUSH · 00:51, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Oh good grief -- for the bazillionth time, I believe Genesis contains a "creation myth" in the first two chapters. Heck, I also see it as blending Egyptian ex nihilo and Babylonian chaos motifs. My point has nothing to do with the veracity of the title, but with its lack of simplicity. While true, it's a crappy title. I don't have theological concerns but rather editorial concerns.

"Creation in Genesis" is no more an "unsubstantiated claim" than"Creation in the Silmarillion" or "Creation in the Poetic Edda." It's simply a subject in a piece of literature, and a title that readers can FIND. And if you can't see that, you have some idealogical blinder on.EGMichaels (talk) 01:10, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Taking pause to note that whether or not it is a "myth" has little to do with there being "solid evidence" for it. This is the very misunderstanding that many have expressed being worried about with this title -the confusion between "myth" and "something that is widely believed but not true".Professor marginalia (talk) 01:23, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I am well aware that the word myth as such carries no judgment of the veracity of its content (it's just the greek word for story, with a little specialized meaning added in english). However, for the ordinary visitor of WP it does. Throughout the discussion on this talk page we have been told that many many times. Of course Genesis is a myth in that sense as well. For all we know everything that is narrated in Genesis has no veracity whatsoever. It may hold theological truths, but certainly not historical truths. Once you get rid of the myth part in the title veracity or evaluation of veracity moves into the article's scope. · CUSH · 01:38, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Then call it "Biblical Creation". · CUSH · 01:20, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Cush, i think this is a First.... its not bad title in the least Weaponbb7 (talk) 01:31, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

My preference would be Genesis creation account because it is one, more commonly referred to that way than any other alternative and we can move on to focus on content rather than edit wars. I could live with Bible creation too. Cosmology I don't like much, or Creation according to Genesis, but honestly nobody in academia writing about this is as obsessed over what to "call it" than the bunch of wikipedia editors who've spent literally hundreds of hours on this one issue.Professor marginalia (talk) 01:31, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

You know, Cush, Biblical Creation ain't bad.EGMichaels (talk) 01:34, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, the adjective "Biblical" conveys the complete context of the Creation at issue, externally as well as internally. And it can exist without the term "myth" which is so controversial around here. · CUSH · 01:46, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I would support this compromise if and only if we make it clear immediately, right after the original title, that the subject is "also known as the Biblical creation myth" or the "Genesis creation myth."UBER 01:50, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Biblical Creation opens it up to items in various prophetic books, as well as Psalms. Let's keep it limited to Genesis. Just because one person thinks that "account" means an account of something that actually happened doesn't mean that the word implies any such thing. "Story" is fine as well. If anything, it leans towards "just a story", but I don't think anyone would have a problem with Genesis creation story. It's by far the most middle-of-the-road name out there. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 01:52, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

What's the problem with removing the restriction to Genesis? If I recall right there are numerous references throughout the Tanakh that amend Genesis (although I don't remember particular verse numbers). Why would you force that outside the scope of the article? After all, this article was supposed to deal with the Judeochristian concept of creation, not just with the text of the opening chapters of Gensis as such. · CUSH · 01:57, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Since it was proposed, I'm also fine with Genesis creation story. It gets about the same point across as Genesis creation myth without being (allegedly) offensive.UBER 02:02, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

"Story" is possibly the worst pick because of its etymology. Even worse than "account". · CUSH · 02:23, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

WHAT?!?!?!?! Are you serious? - Lisa (talk - contribs) 02:54, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Most authorities will use "story" or "account" unselfconsciously even while describing it as a myth. But if "Biblical creation" or "Genesis creation" is apt too, what say we agree to it and we move on? Professor marginalia (talk) 03:20, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I suggest "Biblical Creation". · CUSH · 03:27, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Fwiw, I like lots of the suggestions above. Since this article is about what the Bible says, and the Bible's cosmogonic allegory is given as a story of Creator and creation, in the case of this particular article, Cush's Biblical creation has the benefit of being clear and to the point. I'd be happier with Creation in the Bible, or Biblical creation story, perhaps. Narrowing things to Genesis is fine too, perhaps preferable, because Bible raises the thorny issue that Christians (and English) mean this differently to Jewish usage. But that's not as big a deal as it seems, 'cause Christian additions can be "tacked on" to the article, or the title narrowed to Hebrew Bible if absolutely necessary. Hebrew and Bible are good search terms too.

To be honest, I think there are a lot of good titles: it's much easier to settle that "myth" is not ideal than it is to settle on which of many possible good alternative titles should replace it.

The only question I can think to ask to help is: are we more interested in details of what the Bible says about creation (or origins) or more interested in what Genesis says about whatever? I'm not entirely sure that everyone is on the same page there. Alastair Haines (talk) 03:22, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I prefer Biblical Creation, because it not only refers to the purely textual context but to the conceptual context. · CUSH · 03:29, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I like Cush's Biblical Creation and also Alastair's Creation in the Bible. ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 04:14, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Some Google results to add to our possibilities:

1. Bible story of creation
2. Biblical cosmogony
3. Biblical creation (Cush, AFA Prof01)
4. Creation and Genesis
5. Creation in the Bible (Alastair, AFA Prof01)
6. Creation in Genesis
7. Genesis cosmogony
8. Genesis creation
9. Genesis creation texts
10. Genesis in the beginning
11. Genesis: The Beginnings

My first choice remains "Creation according to Genesis". ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 04:14, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Me, too. Like I said, "story" implies fiction, at least a little bit. "Creation according to Genesis" has always been the appropriate title for this article. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 05:11, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

"Creation according to Genesis" implies reality. Of course you like that endorsement.· CUSH · 10:16, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Eh, I'd have to side with Cush here... slightly... on the grounds that "Creation according to the Silmarillion" has an odd connotation. To do a Silmarillion sanity check on Afa Prof's google results would give some good and some bad results:

• Tolkien story of creation
• Silmarillion creation (implies the history of Tolkien's writing process)
• Creation and the Silmarillion
• Creation in the Silmarillion (functional)
• Creation according to the Silmarillion (strikes the reader as geekish -- much like this list)
• Silmarillion cosmogony (oddly goes together because they are both weird words)
• Silmarillion creation
• Silmarillion creation texts
• Silmarillion in the beginning
• Silmarillion: The Beginnings

In that list, Creation in the Silmarillion, Silmarillion cosmogony, and Silmarillion creation myth are the most functional, with the first choice the most accessible as a search choice. But, as Cush noted, Creation according to the Silmarillion really does imply that there's something real about it.EGMichaels (talk) 11:34, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Support "Creation in..." nomenclature. Consider:

• Creation in Genesis, but I now prefer Creation in the Bible
• Creation in ancient Egyptian religion
• Creation in Baluba tradition
• Creation in ancient Chinese religion
• Creation in Mesoamerica tradition
• Creation in Earth-maker tradition
• Creation in Sumerian tradition
• Creation in Olympian tradition
• Creation in Pelasgian tradition
• Creation in Tolkien works

--AuthorityTam (talk) 02:21, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Rivers from a sea of fresh water beneath the Earth?

Reading over the article quickly, the statement that the ancients of the Near East believed that rivers came from a sea of fresh water beneath the Earth really stands out. I would think that to people who worked outdoors, the relationship of rainfall to rivers would just be too obvious to miss in any era. On the other hand, the myth wouldn't be unreasonable in the Sahara, where water really does come from a sea of (ground) water beneath the Earth (just ask Gaddhafi). It would be interesting to see this expanded upon. Wnt (talk) 19:45, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

There is already an article about the Abzu (== Tehom/Abyssos of Genesis 1:2). · CUSH · 19:55, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

The Ancient Near East was a place of low rainfall. Rivers, floods and irrigation were the basis of essentially subsistence farming.

There's a fair bit of scientific study into this. Just one online source that came to hand was

J. Neumann and RM Sigrist, "Harvest dates in ancient Mesopotamia as possible indicators of climatic variations", Climatic Change 1/3 (1978): 239–252.

Alastair Haines (talk) 04:32, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and the abzu, especially in Egypt (cf Abdju/Abydos), was thought to steadily flow from west to east, and that on it the deceased take a journey by boat to the underworld. The sky was thought to be the abzu's reflection, so that good (or important) people would be seen as stars in the sky. Just an anecdote... · CUSH · 10:25, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Mesopotamia isn't quite such as desert as Egypt, but the rainfall is low enough that the idea of rivers coming from it is not very obvious at all. On the other hand, there are undergound water sources in Mesopotamia such as I've never seen anywhere else - huge pools bubbling up from the ground. These, plus wells and springs, would lead far more naturally to the idea that fresh water comes from under the ground. PiCo (talk) 08:37, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

R E Friedman

Friedman believes and writes (The Bible With Sources Revealed)that the second section of the creation section (written by J in Judah between 922 - 722 BCE) and is older than the first section which he attributes to P. When the edit block is lifted that view should be added to the one stating it was written during the Babylonian exile.Nitpyck (talk) 00:19, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Friedman didn't invent that view, it's the documentary hypothesis and dates from the late 19th century. It still has followers (e.g. Friedman, but also others such as E.A. Speiser, who wrote a fairly recent commentary on Genesis for the Anchor series), but the more common view today is that the Priestly material (Genesis 1 etc) is an edit by a single author or school of authors based on a great deal of fairly disparate material called J or EJ, with D standing somewhat distinct from both these. PiCo (talk) 08:27, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Either way the J theory should be contrasted with the current opposite view: Chronologically it was written after the experiences of the Babylonian exile. It is considered far more modern for its time than the polytheistic cosmogonies of Mesopotamia could have been, and introduces a far more restrictive use of the name Yahweh than the common use of the name in Amorite culture. The second narrative represents a partial demythologizing of nature, interpreting both nature and myth differently. Its presentation uses imagery reflective of the pastoral tradition of Israel that is difficult to interpret today: the world of the shepherd. The Eden narrative addresses the creation of the first man and woman: 74.109.33.112 (talk) 23:51, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

1. Walton, John H. "The Lost World of Genesis One: Ancient Cosmology and the Origins Debate." IVP Academic, 2009. ISBN-13: 978-083083704 Web:

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