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Map of Greater Albania and modern demographics

If have looked at all the articles about local nationalism in Balkans and this is more kinda propaganda. I mean this 'territories claimed' title sounds that there is a current threat, so better rename it 'parts of Grea Albania'. Generally speaking the article is not like an encyclopedia but more than a newspaper of extreme political beliefs.Metsobon34 (talk) 14:42, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

This article adopts an extreme povish approach in specific parts (that's why it's overtagged). About the map (suppose you mean this ]) which was recently unburried by User:Kustrim123 ], due to his extreme edit-warring nature ]. As I remember even the creator of this map admitted in past that it is POV ].Alexikoua (talk) 07:51, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Rv MkLion edit

Reverted with banned user contribution. This user was an SPA account and his contributions should all be closely monitored and possibly reverted. This article still has many flaws in my opinion. First, the title. "Greater Albania" is no where to be found other than in what political analysts from neighboring countries perceive. The term has never been used by Albanian patriots. Second, many references are made to Communist Albania, when communist Albania NEVER has claimed any territories outside of Albania, on the opposite, it ceded to Yougoslavia all the lands acquired through nazi and Italian invasions in WWII. Third, it's very poorly referenced and has high POV. --_Sulmues 15:49, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Nope, your revert in fact messed up the article, just like that of MKDLion did. I have restored it to it's original state, the way it was before the disruption caused by Kushtrim123 (talk about an SPA). If you want to add the map of the Kosovo vilayet proposed by Albanian nationalists that is fine, but the map of greater Albania should stay at the top. As for the claims that "there is no such thing as Greater Albania", that is plain OR and of no interests. Obviously there are PLENTY of Albanian nationalists who dream of a greater albania, and that is well documented. If you're so sure, why don't you put the article up for deletion and see what happens? Athenean (talk) 16:15, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

(after 2 edit conflicts)MKDLion seemed to just revert Kushtrim123 to a map you uploaded, which is too strange since as a new user he couldn't possibly have known what to revert to unless someone had given him instructions to do this. Nonetheless, it doesn't really matter since he was banned for his disruptive activity so I don't intend to continue examining his actions. As for the discussion yes the map of Greater Albania should stay on top but Kushtrim123's more accurate version not Athenean's version(although I think that I can make an even better map, but don't have enough time available).--— ZjarriRrethues —  16:25, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Hm, I apologize for putting the wrong map on top, but MkdLion had to be reverted. Now Zjarri brought the correct version of the map. "Greater Albania" is a controversial term and it should be explained on the lead that people who want to expand Albania's territories prefer "Ethnic Albania". The article is incorrect in many places, starting from the name, but it's not to go to AfD. --_Sulmues 16:18, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely not. The "Grey" map, as you guys call it, is highly POV and inadequate for two reasons: First, the claim that there is "no official data" in Greece is designed to mislead our readers into a) making the Greek government look bad (one of the missions of the map's creator) and b) implying that there could be a LOT of Albanians in Epirus. However, while there is no official data, there IS data from other sources, lots of it in fact, and it tells us one thing: People who identify as "Albanians" in southern Epirus are very very few, definitely less than 10%. So we have data, just not official data. Since when is official data the only data? And even if there WAS official data, it would be immediately labelled as POV and unreliable by the usual suspects. The whole idea of painting Epirus as grey is to create innuendo and is a cheap journalistic gimmick. There is not "official data" about the number of Albanians in Albania too, so should we paint all of Albania as grey? The map is also POV because it pretends southern Albania is ethnically homogeneous, which EVERYONE here knows it's not. Greeks near Saranda and Gjirokaster, Aromanians in Korce and Kolonje. Athenean (talk) 17:18, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually this 'grey' map, is completely pov. Only by taking into account that it's based on the Albanian totalitarian census of 1989 that supports the country's racial purity, this is enough.Alexikoua (talk) 20:51, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Well I don't know how many Albanians are there in the periphery of Epirus and neither do you because there isn't a census to provide the necessary data. The necessary data isn't available because Greece hasn't conducted an ethnographic census since the 1950s. Your personal deductions are irrelevant and not needed. This is a 50%> map not a 90%> map, so no one is implying that there aren't any minorities in Albania.--— ZjarriRrethues —  05:13, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Wrong, we have plenty of OTHER sources about the number of Albanians in the Periphery of Epirus. And they tell us that Albanians are very very few. Besides, even if there was an official census, you would reject it as biased. Athenean (talk) 05:25, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually according to data taken from the official census of 2001, the number of non-EU immigrands (Albanians included) in this region is low (for sure less than 5% in avg). There is a map ] p. 18. that confirms that. Also according to Hart, some Albanian/Arvanitika speaking communities in the region are not part of the Albanian nation. So I don't see a reason why to believe a map that adopts the 1989 tottalitarian Albanian census while on the same time ignores the Greek census and a number of reliable research conducted. Also this 'grey' map, as already said has been regarded as POV even by his creator ].Alexikoua (talk) 05:49, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

For the record I was reading the previous versions of Cham Albanians yesterday and since you're bringing up Hart I think that this revert of your edits by FutureP is appropriate:rv, we have plenty of sourcing that the Muslim-only definition is not the only relevant meaning of the term. Stop monopolising the concepts here, at last.--— ZjarriRrethues —  07:20, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

And this is somehow relevant to this discussion because.....? Athenean (talk) 07:27, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Because that revert is related to Alexikoua's insistence on the use of Hart as the only source ignoring 99% of all the other references.--— ZjarriRrethues —  07:33, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

99%? What 99%? What on earth are you on about now? Besides, I thought you only wanted official data. Athenean (talk) 07:39, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

@ZjarriRrethues: I suggest you should become more concrete on your arguments instead of breaching wp:npa against me. Since even the creator of this 'grey' version admitted that it's pov ], the issue is over.Alexikoua (talk) 09:50, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

When did I breach wp:npa against you in this conversation and how? In fact you stating that is a personal attack against me and if you can't back it up in the future avoid making such statements. For the record that was the exact summary FutureP used when he reverted you.--— ZjarriRrethues —  11:10, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Comment on content, not on the contributor.Alexikoua (talk) 11:20, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

That was my intention when bringing that revert because Hart's thesis isn't the norm but contrary to the norm.--— ZjarriRrethues —  11:25, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually it's exactly the opposite (for example Winnifrith denies even the presence of lignistic communities), as already stated by Balkanian comments.Alexikoua (talk) 12:43, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Map

I made a comment on the talk page of this map . It seems like User:Athens2004 (Am I to understand that that is User:Athenean?) has copied it from this source. Now the map copied is not representing correctly the source for multiple reasons: First and foremost the source claims the Albanians around Kumanovo and Skopje between 50% and 80%, whereas the map that we have in the article doesn't represent that. Can the author make that change please? And actually can the author copy the map exactly as it is in the source. If not, then we will have to discard this map. --_Sulmues 18:30, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Albanians make up 23% in the Skopje Statistical Region and 30% in the Northeastern Statistical Region, which includes Kumanovo, according to census statistics. So the map from mondediplo.com is incorrect. --Local hero 18:46, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Local Hero! Would you agree that this is then an incorrect map, not to be used? --_Sulmues 18:54, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

While the mondediplo map is incorrect with regards to Macedonia, the percentages on Athens2004's map seem to be correct according the 2002 census. The Kosovo, Preševo region, and Montenegro percentages on his map also seem to be correct. I just don't like how one of the ranges is 20-50% because 20% is very different from 50%. --Local hero 19:20, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Let's assume that you are right for the Macedonian and Kosovo part. Southern Albania in Athens2004 map is including the areas of Korce County and Gjirokaster County as having Albanians at 20-50%. I cannot accept this map at least for its southern side. Athenean & Alexikoua?--_Sulmues 20:16, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I will try to make my map follow the Monde Diplomatique map as closely as possible, how's that? Athenean (talk) 20:29, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

It seems ok. A small correction on some regions, like Tetovo, Skopje and surroundings would be ok. The scale is problematic (from 20 to 50?). Moreover it seems that Permet district is near 50% according to this ] p. 1619.Alexikoua (talk) 20:40, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

@Alexikoua: That map is just bringing the Greek POV and is clearly saying "It is usually said that Greeks account for 3% of Albania's population, although some Greek sources give a larger figure." In the meantime the map is the Greek version.

@Athenean: You may give it a try with two condition on my side.

1. All Albania has to be in purple, with the exception of Dropull which is the only place with a Greek majority. 10 villages. That's all there is actually. The 1989 census gives the correct number of the Greeks: 58K out of 3.2M. Mind you, you'll never get a better census than that. The Greeks in Albania were treated better than the Albanians in communist times. You may say totalitarian as much as you can, that's the only source we have. And I'll help you with that: Dropull is the easten side of Lunxheri. --_Sulmues 20:52, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
2. You have to design Chameria and Konitsa and say that these areas are claimed by Cham Albanians who were expulsed. The fact that there might be very few Albanians there goes into the direction of this article, in that the Cham Albanians claim that land back.

That's my opinion. --_Sulmues 20:52, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

@Sulmues: what are you talking about? This map has nothing to do with povs ].Alexikoua (talk) 20:57, 2 June 2010 (UTC) Alexi, that map is not representing a 3% population but a 10% population. --_Sulmues 21:02, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid it represents 3%. If Albania is 3,2M total Greeks are 120K, its more than double of the 1989 census. (The map shows a mixed 50-50 (Green-Blue) population on Northern Epirus, not a Greek only region) If you check the region Himara mysteriously is out of the Greek inhibited sector, I doubt that this is a Greek pov.Alexikoua (talk) 21:06, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually 3% of 3.2M would be 96K, however that book is even claiming badly the 1989 source, because 3% were ALL MINORITIES (inclusive the Macedonian, Gorani, and Vlach ones). Besides Northern Albania is very scarcely populated, so you can't make that argument. That map is bringing Greek POV, because it is claiming a Greek majority in that area, which it's far from the truth. The only area where you would have a Greek majority is in Dropull. And it's not Green-Blue because the Albanian population is not Green nor Blue in the legend. It's just Green with some mountains. And let's not even talk about Himara, because I have a long history of dispute with Athenean about that and I don't want to start again. The problem with Himara is that it was not part of Northern Epirus since 1914 and the Greeks have never claimed it, so that's further proof that that map comes from Greek sources. --_Sulmues 21:16, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

i have to...partly...agree with sulmues about the mondediplo map being inaccurate...there are no Greeks left eg in Korce including non greek speakers with Greek national feelings. the greek population is obviously mostly in delvine, souht sarande and south gjirokaster with some also in south permet and vlore (area of himare and narte) but i doubt they make an important part of the population anymore especially due to migration. i DONT KNOW what EXACT percentage greeks and vlachs make of south albania anyway but there are not as many as 50-80% and greeks are not a majority in the WHOLE of sarande, gjirokaster and kolonje and half of korce...87.202.42.14 (talk) 00:08, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

This discussion has turned into an wp:or concert. Please don't show minorities there at any cost, no matter multiple sources prove the opposite. Moreover, this article is one of Kushtrim's targets ], a revert only spa account that never participates in discussions. Until he receives his new long-term block, I feel everyone agrees that his disruptive edits should be reverted as 'vandalism'.Alexikoua (talk) 05:10, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

i can bring reliable sources if youd like...this is only a discussion page. many of the secondhand sources you cite arent THAT RELIABLE coz they are based on various sources themselves that can be dubious...eg activists or cultural organizations that inflate numbers...for example ive seen 'sourced' maps of (greek) macedonia with slavic speaking or even worse 'macedonian' population in places where such dont exist or albanians in epirus in places where they dont exist at least not anymore. the same is true here...there are no Greeks in many places where mondediplo or other sources depict them. in the end do we want reliable information to appear on wiki or maximalist and untrue claims that bolster nationalism..? anyway..something every source agrees on is that the population of Greeks in albania has lowered a lot during the last 20 years due to permanent migration to greece but i see here huge numbers both in greece and in albania...and the same is true of the 300 plus thousand "chams" who must been having children like crazy if we trust the dubious sources used in their article..we could seriously cooperate instead of arguing like this...(i mean greeks and albanians not i and you)87.202.49.61 (talk) 13:34, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Removal of two sources.

I removed these vague two sources. First because they are generically claimed and second, because they are never used.

• Archivo storico, Ministero degli Affari Esteri (Italy).
• Sottosegretario di Stato per gli Affari Albanesi (State Undersecretary for Albanian Affairs) of Italy (1939–1943).

We are left only with Belgrade and Athens publishings with the exception of the New York published "The new European diasporas: national minorities and conflict in Eastern Europe" by Michael Mandelbaum. I just brought the last one and I'll start using it.--_Sulmues 19:00, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Removal of quote from Christopher HIll

I removed a quote from Christopher Hill here. Hill is not a historian, nor a political analyst. Quoting him like that is just WP:SYNTH. Hope we have no disagreements here. --_Sulmues 19:14, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

tendentious cn tag placement

Placing cn tags for stuff that one doesn't like but is common knowledge is tendentious and falls under WP:PUSH. It is well known that Albanian nationalists dream of including "Cameria" into a Greater Albania. Placing a cn tag there smacks of apologism. Athenean (talk) 21:12, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

No, I just want that passage to be referenced so that we can upgrade the quality of the article. If a passage is not sourced than the quality of the article is poor. Don't you want to bring this article to GA? Why are you even working on it? I suggest you bring some sources rather than claim that something is "well known" --_Sulmues 21:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

You're telling me to provide sources for something that we all know, when all you write in your above postings is a bunch of OR "All Albania has to be in purple, with the exception of Dropull which is the only place with a Greek majority. 10 villages. That's all there is actually. The 1989 census gives the correct number of the Greeks: 58K out of 3.2M. Mind you, you'll never get a better census than that. The Greeks in Albania were treated better than the Albanians in communist times, whatever Stephanie Schievers was writing in the 1990s. I have met her personally and she hung out only with Greeks.... " Incredible. Who you claim to know personally is irrelevant and of no interest to anyone. Besides, how could you know her personally since she "only hung out with Greeks"? Not to mention you are bordering on a BLP violation. Athenean (talk) 21:24, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I really can't find any any sources on the list of the areas that the "nationalist Albanians" are claiming. Really. I'm trying to find sources myself, that doesn't mean you should delete {{cn}}. About my comment on Stephanie, you know what? I'll delete my edit on her and thank you for pointing it out. --_Sulmues 21:49, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I have restored the map which was removed without any explanation by an account with very few contribs, likely vandalism

Greater Albania in 1878? There wasn't even an Albania then.

Ok, hope no one has a problem with Elsie. The term didn't originate in the League of Prizren, which has nothing to do with it. Albania didn't even exist in 1878, so a "Greater Albania" could not have existed either. The term originated during Fascist Italy time in 1941 and was revived by Belgrade to justify Greater Serbia. This is per Robert Elsie. --Sulmues  18:45, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

A couple of things: The term "Greater Albania" may have been coined by Mussolini, but the concept of Greater Albania was dreamt up by the League of Prizren and many other nationalists long before then. Also, language such as "Belgrade propaganda" is highly POV, so it needs to go. Athenean (talk) 18:53, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Elsie says simply "Belgrade" without specifying. Let's leave it that way here as well, I suggest. Replaced "Belgrade" with "Serbian nationalist circles". How does that look? --Sulmues  18:56, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The program of the League of Prizren included a territory much larger than Greater Albania. Btw after the capture of Shkup in 1912 that area was recognized as part of the Albanian millet--— ZjarriRrethues —  18:59, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

In relation to the "concept" of Greater Albania, envisioned by the League of Prizren: It's a very far fatched argument to link the Greater Albania concept of Mussolini with the League of Prizren unique vilayet concept, which was there to push for more territories for the Sultan. The link will not survive in the long run. --Sulmues  19:00, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Clarified better the League of Prizren aims as per Zjarri's concern. --Sulmues  19:21, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

"And managed by Albanians" is simply terrible, not to mention ungrammatical bordering on unreadable. Athenean (talk) 20:28, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

It's difficult to put together concepts that have been actually written in Belgrade and Athens (the main contributor of this article seems to be user:Megistias). My difficulty of putting together League of Prizren with Benito Mussolini stems from twisted ideas of the Serbian nationalists as per Elsie. --Sulmues  20:32, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Oh the irony. So "Greater Albania" is a concept invented by Serbian nationalists to make the Albanians look bad now? I suppose there just aren't any Albanian nationalists out there who dream of "re-uniting" all the "Albanian" lands (Kosovo, Chameria, "Illirida", about half of Montenegro) into a single Albanian state. They must all be figments of the Serbian imagination. Sites like www.illyrians.com and organizations like the LRK must also be Serbian creations. Here's an idea: Why don't we change the first sentence of the lead to: "Greater Albania is a twisted idea of Serbian nationalists to make Albanians look bad." Athenean (talk) 20:38, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Per Elsie, the term was coined in Belgrade, that's just not me, you gotta talk to Robert. Half of Montenegro into an Albanian state? Where did you get that? If you keep this article in Misplaced Pages, the way it is, I bet you a lot of nationalists will gather, because they'll get the idea right from this article. --Sulmues  21:58, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Article gets even more pov

Seems the lead has became more pov after the recent edits, especially this: ]...The concept of Greater Albania was coined by Benito Mussolini, when Fascist Italy reunited the Albanian inhabited territories, but the term itself is actually never used by the Albanians, and has been kept alive in recent years by Serbian nationanlist circles in order to justify a Greater Serbia. is typical wp:pov and obviously against wp:lead.Alexikoua (talk) 20:18, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Please read Robert Elsie and you will find those words there. --Sulmues  20:34, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

This is even worse. "...and managed by Albanians". The irony is also delightful. Here we have Albanian editors who go out there and buy books for the sole purpose of trying to cram as many "Notable People" in places like Preveza to prove that it was Albanian, Albanian, and by the way, Albanian, and here we have the same editors trying to hedge "Greater Albania" as much as possible in a million different ways ("it was coined by Mussolini", "albanians never use the term", "Serbian propaganda", and it goes on). The lead has become a dreadful exercise in weasel-wording. Athenean (talk) 20:28, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Guys the League of Prizren has NOTHING to do with the concept of Greater Albania. If you insist with keeping League of Prizren here, that's what you're going to get. We have to get the League of Prizren out. --Sulmues  20:33, 19 July 2010 (UTC) And made some wording improvements. --Sulmues  20:38, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Better idea: Why don't you put the whole article up for deletion at AfD, since after all "Greater Albania" is nothing more than a figment of the Serbian imagination? Athenean (talk) 20:39, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I proposed it a while ago and I think you rejected the idea. I don't think it's going to go through, because I'd get all the Greeks and the Serbs together voting Keep. --Sulmues  20:41, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Rofl, I was actually being sarcastic. Anyway, the lead is simply terrible. There is so much hedging and weasel wording and poor English that is hopelessly messed up. Since discussion also appears quite hopeless, I will consider other dispute resolution methods. Athenean (talk) 20:45, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Saying that "Greater X" term, is never used by X citizens is really a weird claim. The way it is written on lead is completely misleading for the reader.Alexikoua (talk) 20:43, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree, but it wasn't me to start this article. I would rather move the article to "Ethnic Albania" and we can discuss this option. The concept has started as such by Mussolini in 1941, whereas the areas included within League of Prizren were much bigger and have nothing to do with it. --Sulmues  20:46, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Nope the English title is 'Greater Albania', apart from being bad translation from Albanian to English, 'Ethnic Albania' is also pov by the way.Alexikoua (talk) 20:51, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

The article Ethnic Albania existed and was eventually merged into Greater Albania by this edit. It is a different concept and I personally tend to have two articles. There was no consensus for such a move, but it was done back in 2007 by User:ColdFusion650. --Sulmues  20:58, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

"Ethnic", "Greater", whatever, it's the same thing. It's a concept to unite all Albanian lands into one entity, and this hasn't changed since the days of the League of Prizren, nor was this concept "invented" by Mussolini. Every Balkan nationality has similar concepts, I don't see what's so frightful or shameful about it. After all, you don't see Greek editors writing hysterically in Megali Idea that it is a Turkish concept invented to make Greeks look bad. Athenean (talk) 20:53, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

There is big difference the Megali Idea probably surpassed itself, whereas the Greater Albania was never realized. Of course the editors will have different feelings. Now you say that Megali Idea is a Turkish concept, whereas Greater Albania is Albanian? How come that Megali Idea, a Turkish idea realized in Greek lands, whereas Greater Albania, an "Albanian" concept never realized?--Sulmues  20:58, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

In addition: Greater Albania is completely different from Ethnic Albania. Greater Albania doesn't take into consideration the ethnicity of the populations included in the area, whereas Ethnic Albania starts with the idea of including all the ethnic Albanians. It is blatantly different. --Sulmues  21:09, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

"Megali Idea, a Turkish idea realized in Greek lands"? Man, I don't think you have any idea what we're talking about here. Your last point is so completely devoid of sense and meaning, that I am ending discussion here and will seek outside opinions. Athenean (talk) 21:23, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Feel free, but know that your sarcasm is not appreciated. --Sulmues  21:25, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not being sarcastic. You just don't (or can't) understand a single word I'm saying. Athenean (talk) 21:29, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, just make up your mind about your sarcasm. This contradicts this. --Sulmues  21:53, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I meant my last point. But you really have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when you say Megali Idea was a Turkish concept. None whatsoever. Athenean (talk) 21:56, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I must have misread this edit, which seemed very strange to me too. Anyways, I think that we have to have two articles Ethnic Albania and Greater Albania, because there are no sources to state that the Albanian nationalists want "Greater Albania". The sources we have are for Albanian nationalists calling for Ethnic Albania, an article, which now doesn't exist and just redirects here. --Sulmues  22:01, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

athenean...sulmues doesnt seem to understand half of what you write you wrote 'you don't see Greek editors writing hysterically in Megali Idea that it is a Turkish concept invented to make Greeks look bad' and he understood that you meant that 'the MI WAS a turkish concept invented to make greeks look bad'...87.202.23.90 (talk) 02:00, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

BTW as i said in a section above im still not sure about the map that shows '20-50% albanian' in certain parts of south albania..it seems too low (and i have no idea about the albanian presence in certain areas of fyrom so ill let others express themselves here)...do we have any specific info?87.202.23.90 (talk) 02:04, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Reverted this problematic edit of Alexikoua. Please read the source and don't make any edits that are outside of what the source says, otherwise we are in OR territory. @IP editor: Please do not break wp:npa: I already told Athenean that I had not understood his comment on Megali Idea. --Sulmues  17:16, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

One more thing. Since Athenean brought the case to Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Geopolitical_ethnic_and_religious_conflicts#Greater_Albania, I invite everybody that the current version , which is the same as the one right before he brought it to AN, be kept. --Sulmues  17:18, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I spotted this on the ethnic conflict board while perusing the Northern Ireland debate above it. FWIW, I think the insistence on saying that "Albanians rarely use the term" etc - while perhaps interesting as a matter of translation and linguistics - is kind of missing the point, and also confuses the concept itself and what it might be called locally, with how popular it might or might not be with Albanians. The term "Greater xx" is the phrase most often used by third party English language sources to describe the various irredentist aspirations of nation xx. It is used in respect of Albania just as it is in respect of Serbia, Croatia etc. The idea that either the concept or the precise term used to describe it in respect of Albania was simply invented by rival (Serbian) nationalists or Mussolini is a little odd. As a starting point for evidence against that, quick Google searches will reveal all sorts of books and media sources using the term regularly.

The point beyond that is that the "Greater xx" term can cover all sorts of aspirations - eg a claim on areas where there is an ethnic Albanian/Serbian/Croation majority today, and/or those areas that were historically part of some old empire etc. These differences can be explained in the article, rather than by having an "Ethnic Albania" fork. Equally, in some cases there is greater political support for the concept of an expanded nation than there is in others. It may well be the case that in Albania and among Albanians, the Greater Albania idea in its various guises is not popular. That too can be explained in the article. But it does not mean that the term/concept does not exist, or that its existence is some sort of propaganda device that needs to be exposed.

As for the Robert Elsie quote that's being put in the lead, yes it is from a seemingly decent source (I don't know much about him), but it remains simply the opinion/comment of one writer, which is being cherry-picked, unattributed, for fairly clear POV purposes as if it were fact, and the only fact. I'm not sure the lead should be using one quote to make such a definitive statement in the narrative voice of the article from the outset, particularly the second part of it. N-HH talk/edits 19:03, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Good points, and thanks for chiming in. The problem here is that some editors simply cannot see things outside their national perspective. While the term "Greater Albania" may have very specific connotations for Albanians, this article is simply about the general irredentist concept as treated in the English literature. Elsie's sentence can be moved to a separate section, where the issue about how Albanians perceive the term Greater Albania can be discussed. But it has no place in the lead. Similarly, the territories claimed on behalf of Greater Albania should be mentioned in the lead. Athenean (talk) 19:14, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I have no problems moving Elsie below. Good points. About the territories claimed on behalf of Greater Albania in the lead: that simply is far fetched, because that's where you'll encounter the Ethnic Albania issue: You gotta find the maps that the Albanian nationalists will bring. In addition, what about the League of Prizren? --Sulmues  19:25, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Are you serious? There is nothing far fetched about discussing which territories are claimed on behalf of Greater Albania, it is essential to helping our readers get a quick grasp of the subject (per WP:LEDE). Every map put out by Albanian irredentists shows Kosovo, all of Epirus, about half of the Republic of Macedonia, and a good chunk of Montenegro and Serbia (Sandjak). Just look up "Greater Albania" in Google Images or the Commons. In fact, most of the proposals for greater Albania follow the template set by the League of Prizren, which was the inception of the idea of uniting all "Albanian" lands. Athenean (talk) 19:36, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Exactly my point. Those maps come from Serbianna.com and kosovo.net , Belgrade agencies , and in general the ultra-nationalistic Serbian sites. Find me Albanian nationalistic sites, 'cause I have never seen them. . --Sulmues  20:00, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Right, you have never seen Albanian ultranationalist sites, therefore, they must not exist. All figments of the Serbian and Greek imaginations. For starters then, you might want to check out www.illyrians.org, one of my favorites. Note the banner on top. What does it say? Btw, the maps you claim are from "Serbian ultranationalist sites" are in Albanian, so they prboably got them from places like illyrians.com. At least one of them they took from the Commons (and antiwar.com is hardly a "Belgrade agency"). Now, on a more serious note, there are dozens upon dozens on sources on Greater Albania out there, and it can be very easily sourced which lands are claimed on behalf of Greater Albania . Btw, I don't understand why you're so opposed to this. All "Greater X" articles include a brief description of the territories claimed, e.g. Greater Serbia and Megali Idea. I don't see why Greater Albania should be any different. It's just basic encyclopedism. Athenean (talk) 21:28, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not opposing placing the territories claimed. I just think that:

1. The League of Prizren link to Greater Albania should be handled with care, if it really needs to be presented in the article: I wouldn't at all, personally, because Albania didn't exist back then.
2. The concept of Greater Albania was cristallized during Albania under Italy. --Sulmues  18:41, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Greater Albania was only ever realized under Italy. But the concept of an Albanian-ruled entity that would include Albania, Kosovo, Chameria, and others places, was first conceived by the League of Prizren. That is what this article is about, not the term "Greater Albania" in the narrow sense. Athenean (talk) 18:47, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes but I really disagree that the League of Prizren concept has anything to do with Greater Albania. This came after Albania's borders were unjustly decided in London in 1913.--Sulmues  20:22, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Regarding Elsie's sentence, the part about Mussolini is not really necessary, since there is a whole section (WW 2), discussing the use of "Greater Albania" by the Italians. The part about its uses in Serbian nationalism can go in the "Political Uses" section. Athenean (talk) 18:59, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Fine with me, but a mention of that should be done in the lede. --Sulmues  20:22, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

OK, now that we have reached an agreement on the 1st paragraph, to work on the 2nd paragraph. The only problem I see is grammatical which I can easily fix by simply removing "and to be put". Athenean (talk) 19:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

 Done . --Sulmues  20:24, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Now that the issue has finally been resolved, the tags should be removed as well. They're kind old (2007, 2008) and there is no real discussion about them anymore. Athenean (talk) 21:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Map

Undid this map removal , removed on spurious grounds. The map is not POV, it is sourced to Le Monde Diplomatique, a very reliable source. Athenean (talk) 07:30, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I've read through all past discussions about maps etc. and it seems that this isn't Le Monde and the creator of the map is allegedly citing Rexhep Qosja, who would never write anything similar to what the map proposes. Btw this is a content dispute so I'll add back the POV template. Per wp:fringe since no one else even proposes that the map has to go.--— ZjarriRrethues —  07:35, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

This map is one of many, presented by several sources og high credibility. Just happened to see lately this]. (@Zjarri: you don't have to explain again how aware you are about all the past 2-years discussions in wikipedia).Alexikoua (talk) 08:10, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not explaining myself Alexikoua and bring a page link not list one. Btw because as I said you have already discussed this when Athenean recycles the use of that argument it is disruptive per WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT(that's the reason of my past discussions reference)--— ZjarriRrethues —  08:47, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)That link btw shows Himarë as a region with no Greeks, also Berat County with no Greeks and also doesn't refer to whether the minority in all these lands is a majority--— ZjarriRrethues —  08:55, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

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