Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:24, 16 February 2011

The project page associated with this talk page is an official policy on Misplaced Pages. Policies have wide acceptance among editors and are considered a standard for all users to follow. Please review policy editing recommendations before making any substantive change to this page. Always remember to keep cool when editing, and don't panic.

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discussion following the revert (threshold again)

• North, there's clearly no consensus for the change you want to make, and the current wording has been widely cited for years, so please don't change it again unless the consensus becomes clear. People have to know, when they quote a policy from memory, that the material is going to be there when they come to check it. "Verifiability, not truth" sums up the core editing approach of Misplaced Pages, and people find it memorable and easy to understand. SlimVirgin 12:52, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

People, even some admins, also misunderstand "verifiability, not truth" as saying we don't care about truth at all and that we intentionally make our articles lie (e.g. about things concerning Misplaced Pages, as in Sam Blacketer affair) in case the "reliable sources" clearly get things wrong. I.e., these editors argue that even an exceptionally strong consensus of editors that information (in this case BLP information) is obviously false is not enough to keep it out of an article once it has appeared in an "RS" and not contradicted by others. This is not what happens in practice, but the widespread misconception has sometimes led to unnecessary disruption.

This formulation has existed for so long that it has become almost impossible to change now, and of course a consensus needs to be obtained before changing it. But it must be changed or at least annotated with an explanation that discourages the fundamentalist interpretation. Let's work for a consensus to do so. Hans Adler 13:32, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Hello Slim and all. The change was the end result of a 3 week group discussion (above) and then in the end set out for an extra 2 days for any one who had any objections. There seems to be a double standards here. North8000 (talk) 19:36, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

It's a long, convoluted discussion, and it's by no means clear that there is any outcome at all. There can be no strong consensus unless interested editors can see at a glance what is at stake and that a consensus, with which they may or may not agree, is about to form. Without that, there will never be enough participation for a sufficiently robust consensus. Hans Adler 19:49, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the substance of it, a part of the discussion was that this is a verifiability policy, and it says that verifiability is absolutely required, and that nothing trumps the requirement. This doesn't change policy, it actually gets rid of flaws which clouded the policy. Specifically, this gets rid of the lack of clarity in one portion of the sentence which just said one particular thing ("truth") doesn't trump verifiability, and in a way that causes it to be widely mis-misapplied to disparage the idea of accuracy (in cases where objective accuracy exists). IMHO this is a good change that should be made. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:55, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Oh, hells belles, let it go. This doesn't help clarify the policy at all, it just adds more wikilawyer fodder. I can already imagine editors trying trying to subvert NPOV by presenting a biased source and saying it's 'absolutely required' that we use verified sources. please read the points I made a couple of threads up. --Ludwigs2 20:36, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Last thing I want to do is add to Wikilawyering! But I think that the title of this subsection confused matters.....there was no "absolutely" in what the group developed. The new wording was that of Nuujinn's 18:06 9 January post except with the punctuation change by 66.212, Which I recapped in my 17:38 10 January post.

I read your earlier post. I think that may be a very good discussion to have, but a bit off of this topic. The change did not put anything in promoting accuracy. It just reworded something which had often been mis-quoted as disparaging accuracy. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:51, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

A change we agreed to in this discussion has been reverted with the edit comment, "...please gain clear consensus before changing it".

This discussion began on 25 November 2010, and over the course of three sections has had 163 comments from 21 participants.  Thereby, readers of this page are aware of this discussion and its objectives.  Five comments marked the consensus call on January 10.  More than 46 hours elapsed after the final consensus call before the change was promoted.  I think that this is a reasonable procedure to determine consensus in this context, and clearly there was a consensus with this procedure.  Thus I see no basis for the revert.  RB  66.217.118.187 (talk) 05:50, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Jayjg, This is a continuation from the message started in the next subsection.  I think there is a difficulty here in consensus building if a VIP editor can wait until after a presumably valid consensus has been established and make a revert.  I'd like to know if you agree or disagree that the consensus process that was followed was reasonable in the context.  If not, what should have been done differently?  Thank you, RB  66.217.117.30 (talk) 05:03, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Clearly there was a consensus with the procedure that was used.  Are there any comments as to whether it was a reasonable procedure to determine consensus in this context?  If not, what should have been done differently?  RB  66.217.117.16 (talk) 17:17, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Further discussion on proposed wording change in lead

66 laid it out more thoroughly and completely than I did. Plus it's not even a change in policy, it just more clearly states the policy. North8000 (talk) 11:40, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

There was nobody against the final proposal, and it set out there an extra 2 days for an extra opportunity to comment. So I guess the next step to put it out there for further input//discussion, including any objections. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:53, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

The issue here is that "verfiability, not truth", is a pithy and memorable phrase, which is extremely helpful in starkly outlining what Misplaced Pages tries to do. Yes, it can be misinterpreted, and of course we want material to be true as well, but "truth" is subjective, verifiability is objective. It might be helpful to further clarify what we mean, but removing the phrase is, I think, detrimental. Jayjg 01:30, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Jayjg, Please see .  Many times during the course of this conversation editors have expressed concern regarding Group B thinking.  But you will see that none of the critical opinions; Opinion X, Opinion Y, and Opinion Z; support Group B thinking.  A goal here was to remove part of the basis for the idea that as long as material is verifiable, it doesn't matter whether it is true or not true.  See Argument_from_authority.  In my opinion everyone here agrees and has agreed with your basic concern which is that we don't want to take time to consider the truth of material that is not verifiable.  I agree that we should restore the words "verifiability, not truth" in some form.  I have made a further response regarding process in the previous subsection.  RB  66.217.117.163 (talk) 04:23, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Jaygig, it's not that it can be misterpreted, it's that it is pervasively mis-interpreted. The proposed change also sidesteps /reduces the other issue in that "truth" is an ambiguous and somewhat pejorative and straw dog substitute for the word accuracy. And also a pejorative way of characterizing efforts towards accuracy, for cases where objective accuracy exists. I say all of this because one of the common uses of the "truth" is referring to what is actually opinion and proselytizing, nothing to do with accuracy. North8000 (talk) 04:57, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Is there any other opposition to this long-discussed potential change? North8000 (talk) 12:39, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Not opposition, but I wonder if there's not some way of honoring the older phrasing, perhaps by referencing in a subsequent sentence that the policy has been and will likely continue to be expressed in this way. --Nuujinn (talk) 00:18, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Where is the proposal located? I don't see it on this page. Cold someone restate it please?   Will Beback  talk  00:30, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

It was a proposal made some weeks ago to remove or change "verifiability, not truth," and/or "threshold for inclusion," and there were several objections. SlimVirgin 00:52, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

With respect, it's a bit more complicated than that. But the short version of the last proposal is here.

Somehow the section got cut in half and the proposal and the arguments for it got archived, even with new material in them. It is:

replace the entire first (one sentence) paragraph with:

"The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability; that is, whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source. No other consideration, such as assertions of truth, is a substitute for verifiability."

North8000 (talk) 23:43, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

In response to Jayjg's well founded concern, I might suggest this alternative:

"The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability; that is, whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source. This policy has traditionally been expressed with the phrase "verfiability, not truth," which emphasizes that no other consideration, such as assertions of truth, is a substitute for verifiability."

Just a tupence, --Nuujinn (talk) 00:23, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, that could be a compromise. Recapping a couple of points from the quickly archived discussions, the currently one is widely misquoted as disparaging the idea of accuracy. Also, the current one is structurally bad because it just gives one particular example of a thing that isn't a substitute for verifiability. Sort of implies and 'either or" situation, and weakens the verifiability by seemingly leaving out the other things that aren't a substitute. North8000 (talk) 01:48, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that the current version emphasizes the one opposition, and there are others. But history is important as well, and the current version has served us well. --Nuujinn (talk) 01:51, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Coming to this discussion late, but when I see people arguing that a particular wording "has served us well" or some such, I can normally be pretty sure that they've run out of genuine arguments. I would certainly like to drop or amend the misleading "verifiability, not truth" slogan - we presumably do want truth as an ideal, but the only practical way we know of of ensuring that we approximate truth is by insisting on verifiable statements. And that's actually "verifiability" in a very specific sense, too. What the slogan actually means, I guess, is "truth according to reliable sources, not truth according to the declarations of editors". --Kotniski (talk) 07:38, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

The truth (verifiability) the whole truth (NPOV) and nothing but the truth (NOR) -- PBS (talk) 10:04, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I like that, PBS, be a nice start to an essay. Kotniski, would you like a nice chablis with your snark? --Nuujinn (talk) 11:42, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

As a sidebar, "truth" is sort of a slightly pejorative straw man substitute word for the word "accuracy". I say this because the word "truth" often refers to proselytizing, faith-based statements, opinions or worse. Objective accuracy does exist when there is 99%+ acceptance for the framework of the statement. So it does exist for the statement "tallest mountain in the world", and it doesn't exist for "the greatest football player of all time". And information is a part of the Wikimedia objectives. Objectively wrong "information" is not information. North8000 (talk) 12:06, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Proposed solution to this interminable debate

This argument has been going on forever, and shows no real likelihood of stopping anytime soon. So, maybe it's time we just boldly rewrote the lead entirely, and to hell with history. We can add a 'legacy' section below if anyone really wants it. Proposed rewrite (getting rid of all the things that people squabble over, hopefully):

The aim of of Misplaced Pages is to give neutral, accurate descriptions of the subjects it covers. To ensure that the information presented is accurate, every substantive claim made in Misplaced Pages articles should be capable of being verified in reliable published sources. Verifiability is an exclusionary principle: Not every claim needs to be explicitly verified, and being verifiable does not ensure that a claim will be used on a given article, but claims that are challenged by other editors and cannot be traced back to published sources should generally be removed.

A claim is verified when it can be found used in a source with the same basic sense and context as its intended use in the Misplaced Pages article. The claim does not need to be a literal repetition of what is said in the source (and care should be taken to avoid plagiarism), but should be a proper summary consistent with the source's intent and purpose. It does not matter whether what the source says is correct or incorrect (true or false) in the greater world, so long as what the source conveys is a significant aspect of a neutral description of the topic.

Once they have passed verification, different claims may require different kinds of attribution (from uncontroversial claims which require no attribution to claims which need to be directly attributed to a specific source or author) in order to avoid over- or under-representing their significance to the topic.

Verifiability is one of Misplaced Pages's core content policies, along with No original research and Neutral point of view. These policies jointly determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in articles. They should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should familiarize themselves with the key points of all three. All core policies may be applied more stringently on material relating to living persons.

Have at it! --Ludwigs2 18:11, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

You fixed several issues in one swoop! Something that huge and fast inevitably has a few imperfections. Not sure I understand the distinction between verificaton and attribution. Also, I'd rather not diss objective accuracy (for those cases where such exists). North8000 (talk) 22:47, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Definitely way to go. But not exactly this, though - this lead needs to be written in nice, ordinary-person-friendly language - the worst thing it could do is put people off joining the project by making them think Misplaced Pages is terribly complicated. The word "exclusionary" here loses the audience as early as the third sentence. And no references to "claims"!! That misleads as to what frame of mind we expect people to come to Misplaced Pages in. --Kotniski (talk) 22:59, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

@ kotinski: yes, sometimes I am ordinary-person-friendly-language-challenged, I freely admit it. I'm ok with a rewording, but those two point do need to be covered somehow

• the 'exclusionary' bit is needed in some form to kibosh the classic POV-advocate "I have a source, so we have to include this" thing. we need to point out that verification is a test for whether something can be used, not whether it should be used.
• the 'claims' thing is really important, though maybe not the best language. the thing to get across here is we as editors make statements about a topic in the encyclopedia, and it's those statements that we make that need to be verifiable in sources. A lot of editors forget that wikipedia itself always has a voice - whatever is written in any article is what Misplaced Pages says about a topic - and the struggle here is to ensure that wikipedia's voice (the claims that wikipedia makes about a topic) accurately reflects the voices of sources.

@ North8000: the way I see it (based on debates I've had here over the issue):

• verification is the simple act of making sure that something written in wikipedia accurately reflects what's been said in the real world. For instance, if some editor edited the GH Bush article to claim that the sign behind W said "Mission accomplished, suckers", that would not be verifiable, while the same phrase without the 'suckers' part would be.
• attribution is how we give credit for a particular statement, which is more in the NPOV balance direction. generally there are four levels of attribution:
  • no attribution, implying broad acceptance of a claim (the standard "Mars is a planet" thing)
  • group attribution, implying broad acceptance of a claim within a particular POV ("Hindus see Brahman as the highest spiritual entity")
  • specific attribution using a footnote, implying a claim given by a particularistic source who would largely be considered qualified and unbiased ("The Obama administration is embarking on a new policy of..." <with citation to the New York Times>)
  • specific inline attribution, implying a claim that is questionable, localized to a particular (usually minority) POV, polemic, or otherwise not to be taken as a generally accepted statement ("Linus Pauling argued that large doses of Vitamin C could effective cure a broad range of diseases")

Also, I'll confess I have difficulty with the concept of 'objective accuracy'. Too much Philosophy of Science in my brain... Plus, I think Misplaced Pages needs to make a bright-line rule blocking concerns with ontological truth no matter what language it appears in. Science itself might aim for something like 'objective accuracy' (as I've said elsewhere, one of the premises of modern science is the assertion is that one can make an induction from collective subjective experience to ontological facticity - yeah, I know, everyone just had a brain freeze; sorry), but wikipedia shouldn't be trying to evaluate science on that level. We should keep it on the level of describing topics neutrally, and leave it up to sources to worry about whether the topics are understood correctly. --Ludwigs2 18:23, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Hello Ludwigs2 I think that the "the more questionable the claim, the stronger sourcing needed (and vica versa) fills an important hole in the policy. But it is confusing that you seem to be switching between implying that verification and attribution are two different things, and then that they are the same.

I wasn't trying to push the idea of objective accuracy (even in those cases where it exists). I was just saying let's not actively diss it. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:29, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Ah, I see what you mean about accuracy - I misunderstood you before, sorry.

With respect to the other: verification and attribution are two different things, but they are related. verification asks the question "is what we say an accurate reflection of what's said in the real world?" Attribution asks the question "How careful do we have to be making this statement in Misplaced Pages's voice". Obviously, one can verify many statements from many sources that should not be stated directly in wikipedia's voice (e.g. statements of White Supremacist organizations about minority groups); Obviously, one can make many common sense statements in wikipedia's voice that would be difficult or pointless to verify from specific sources (e.g. statements about who the president of the US was in a given year). First we need to verify a statement (if only to say that it's too generic to need specific verification); once verified, we need to determine the best way to psent it in the encyclopedia so as not to misrepresent it. --Ludwigs2 20:00, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

A lot of brilliant ideas there that would be big fundamental changes. I'm almost thinking that we should still deal with the tiny proposed change (and which is not a policy change) prior to your proposal and then move on to yours? North8000 (talk) 13:03, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

well, North, as a dyed-in-the-wool tinkerer I have a strong preference for patching things up - duct tape is my bestest friend. But even I recognize that there comes a point where you just have to stop nursing something along and go out and get a new one. People have been wrestling over micro-changes to this policy for years now, with absolutely no progress whatsoever. Whether or not your tiny proposed change goes through, this same argument (IMO) is going to start up again in a week, as though nothing had changed. and that's because - honestly - nothing will have changed.

I'm halfway tempted to edit this in right now with the edit summary "BOLD change to long-standing policy because I'm tired of people squabbling endlessly over petty crap", because that's pretty much how I feel about it. --Ludwigs2 16:44, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

I like many aspects of it. Maybe a few suggestions:

• "Exclusionary" is not a common word, but it does have an explanation. But given that it gets explained anyway, do we need the word itself?
• "over- or under-representing their significance to the topic" . Maybe "...as it is presented in reliable sources relevant to the topic" or something like that? My point being that there is perhaps a hole here concerning how what defines the significance.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:10, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Ludwig2, you do brilliant work. But I think that this contains a fundamental re-definition of the word verifiability/verification. I still am not clear on what that new definition is, and not sure that you have fully thought it through. Your first definition of verification sort of presumes that a agreed definitive source exists (I think an oversimplificaiton in a major area) and that verification means checking against it. Then your attribution definition introduces the concept that I have been promoting (the more questioned/questioned the statement, the stronger the sourcing required. and vice versa. But thiis deos not define attribution. Your only real definition of attribution seemed to related to giving credit. North8000 (talk) 16:42, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Back to the smaller / longer-discussed proposal

Ludwig2, again you do brilliant work, but I would like to still deal with the much smaller proposal of the discussions which, recapping, is:

replace the entire first (one sentence) paragraph with:

"The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability; that is, whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source. No other consideration, such as assertions of truth, is a substitute for verifiability."

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:47, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

well, ok, but the problem with that particular line is that it doesn't make it clear what relation people should have to truth. I can see people following this kind of logic: "sure, assertions of truth are not a substitute for verifiability. but assertions of truth are 'right' and so therefore have their own value and place on project." We have to get something in here that dispels the idea that the project is aiming to express truth, but instead uses verifiability to ensure accuracy. do you see what I mean? --Ludwigs2 17:50, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm with you 100%. (actually 1000%). Right now this is only in the higher level Wikimedia statements, and wp:ver is merely a means to that end. WP:ver CAN semi-successfully be and is myopic of the bigger picture. You are proposing to change / fix that 100% which is huge. What I'm promoting only fixes that 1%, that 1% went a long time in discussion here without dissent, and even then got reverted when I put it in. Gotta start somewhere. North8000 (talk) 18:25, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

As a thought: Accuracy on Misplaced Pages is objective and is determined per sources, while truth is subjective. When using sources to illustrate truth one is actually creating OR because the editor and his opinions are manipulating the sources to an end "statement". I think one of the hardest things for a new editor is to understand that an encyclopedia is not a research paper, but is a compilation of information. Information by definition has to be found somewhere rather than newly created. Weight is an incredibly important aspect of Misplaced Pages since it helps determine the the importance/significance of the sources. By determining their weight to the whole subject area accuracy of the article is determined. As an aside editors quite often use weight when it suits them and ignore it when it doesn't possibly because its a kind of second tier. Threshold for inclusion doesn't mean everything can be included just that the basic standard has been met then weight comes into play. Probably what is needed is a chart to set this down... a picture is worth a thousand words...yadyadyada..:o)

Actually the Policy as it is worded now does not define verifiability and its connection to what an encyclopedia is. It starts right in with verifiable as a descriptor of something else - sources.

An encyclopedia is a compilation of information that by definition has been published elsewhere. The threshold for inclusion of that information (sources) in Misplaced Pages is verifiability; that is, whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source. An assertion of truth, a subjective consideration, is not a substitute for verifiability.

Just brainstorming with this version. Not attached in anyway.(olive (talk) 19:07, 9 February 2011 (UTC))

Overall I think that yours is better. But structurally I think we need to get in there that no other consideration is a substitute. North8000 (talk) 13:09, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Making charts... you must be an academic - lol. The difficulty with this is that saying "An assertion of truth, a subjective consideration" is likely to confuse vast ranges of people who don't see truth as subjective at all. The whole 'truth' thing is such an ugly red herring... how about replacing the last line with something like "Misplaced Pages editors should not write articles from the perspective of what they know to be true, no matter how well founded their knowledge is, but should restrict themselves to information that can be found by anyone." --Ludwigs2 03:20, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree. The word truth shouldn't be used because of its diverse relationship to multiple philosophical positions/theories/meanings... very red herring ish. Your wording is an improvement over mine... I'm not sure about "know to be true" another red herring, maybe "think to be true" would be better, and "found by anyone" reads well, but does't take into account sources that are only available to some editors. Maybe that's not a concern.(olive (talk) 17:27, 11 February 2011 (UTC))

I like the first sentence as-is — with the bolding for emphasis, and with the placement to stand alone as a first paragraph. Clarifications are best left for later. Wishy-washiness and weaseling should be left out.

Also, saying that editors should restrict themselves to information that is easily found would be to back off of longstanding policy. Ease of verifiability is a plus, evan a big plus, but is only a plus. I say this as an editor who lives on and is writing this from a small island having no libraries located in a country having few libraries; "verifiable" for me is restricted to what I have on my bookshelf or can access online. Having said that, I'll also say that ease of verifiability is not and should not be a requirement. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 03:27, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree with your thoughts on "easily found", but I believe that is not an issue because I don't think that it is in any of the proposals. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:25, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Dataspaces and OR

Recent policy announcements by NIH and NSF require funded research workers to put results in sustainable dataspaces. See , . (This is not mentioned in Dataspaces.

Will WP consider information in the DataSpace of a major research university self-publication or publication by the university?

Edit request from 125.166.187.49, 11 February 2011

{{edit semi-protected}}

125.166.187.49 (talk) 02:07, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Deactivated the template - no request given.--Kotniski (talk) 10:23, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Copyright in the lead

SlimVirgin has restored her preferred version of this policy with this edit, thereby removing reference to copyright in the lead. I had thought the several discussions above were sufficient, but apparently not, so let's hear the reasoned objections, please?—S Marshall T/C 21:01, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

This policy isn't about copyright, and Misplaced Pages:Copyright violations isn't one of the core content policies, which is what the edit said. SlimVirgin 12:46, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

That's not difficult to address by rewording, considering that copyright violation policy is enshrined in the third pillar, it's clearly a policy, and it's clearly related to content. Is that the only objection?—S Marshall T/C 16:55, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

SV if this policy isn't about copyright why are you supporting the retention of the sentence "Be mindful of copyright: do not copy text from copyrighted sources, or paraphrase too closely, without in-text attribution."? -- PBS (talk) 23:11, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Note: I do intend to reinsert the disputed wording if there's no further response.—S Marshall T/C 02:17, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Ah, don't do that. Slim's right: copyvio is not a core policy of wikipedia. it's more of a nono attached to wp:V and/or wp:OR. wp:KISS. --Ludwigs2 04:47, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree, copyright policy doesn't belong in the lead here. --Nuujinn (talk) 08:04, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Wait, what? If copyright is a "nono attached to WP:V", then it really should get more prominence here. Although for the avoidance of doubt, my position is that WP:COPYVIO is of central importance and few Wikipedians take it seriously enough. I see it as a core policy.—S Marshall T/C 16:47, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

The aforementioned edit and SV's comment refer to core content policies. Per Misplaced Pages:Core content policies and Misplaced Pages:List of policies and guidelines, WP:COPYVIO is not a core content policy. Location (talk) 16:57, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Copyright is not a "no-no attached to WP:V"... it is a legal concept defined by the laws of the US and the State of Florida (since our servers are located in that state). WP:COPYVIO is a Misplaced Pages policy that is based on those laws... and as a policy it stands on its own. While I think WP:COPYVIO is important, I don't think it has much to do with the concept of Verifiability.... thus, I think a brief mention and link are helpful, but there is no need to expand upon it in this policy. Blueboar (talk) 17:09, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

• We can start an RFC on whether WP:COPYVIO counts a core content policy, if you like. My position is that it's clearly a core content policy.

  The current wording is problematic because of its implications. It reads:

  Verifiability is one of Misplaced Pages's core content policies, along with No original research and Neutral point of view. These policies jointly determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in articles. They should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should familiarize themselves with all three.

  The unstated implication is that once editors have familiarized themselves with all three, they know everything they need to know about Misplaced Pages's core content policies, and that's obviously false. There's clear evidence above that editors, including formerly very senior editors, are acting on this unstated assumption, so you can see that it's a real and current problem.

  In the face of this, quibbling whether WP:COPYVIO is a core content policy (as opposed to merely a core policy about content) strikes me as inappropriate, but I'll put it to RFC if you like.—S Marshall T/C 18:28, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I think you would have to run an RFC and gain consensus before we consider WP:COPYVIO a core content policy. In my opinion, it is an important legal policy affecting content... but not a "core content policy" the way NPOV, V and OR are. Blueboar (talk) 18:53, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I concur, in one sense it's not our policy at all, but a requirement imposed by various governments. --Nuujinn (talk) 18:55, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Your comments are invited on User:S Marshall/Rfc draft. Is the wording acceptably neutral? (Please use the draft's talk page if you wish.)—S Marshall T/C 19:56, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Chiming in a bit late, I also agree, WP:COPYVIO is not one of the core content policies. Jayjg 01:27, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Jayjg your comment does not make sense to me. Are you saying it is not, or that you think it should not be? It seems to me that it is a key content policy, and is made so by the comments at the bottom of every edit page: "Please do not copy and paste from copyrighted websites – only public domain resources can be copied without permission." and at the bottom of every article page: "Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply. See Terms of Use for details. Misplaced Pages® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a non-profit organization.". I have always assumed that copyright considerations were implicit in all that we are doing. I think that stating it explicitly in the lead of the other content policies will help remove need for mentioning it in sentences in those policies like "Be mindful of copyright: do not copy text from copyrighted sources, or paraphrase too closely, without in-text attribution." which is less than helpful without a lot of qualification. -- PBS (talk) 20:14, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

PBS raises a good point. If we mention copyright in the lead, there is no reason why we need to keep the later statement, which editors seem to find unsatisfactory.—S Marshall T/C 18:40, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

As others have explained, the copyright policy is not a core content policy, so it wouldn't be appropriate to mention it in the lead as though it is. SlimVirgin 22:36, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

I was hoping to avoid bringing that particular quibble to RfC. Which limb do you disagree with? That it's a core policy, that it concerns content, or both?—S Marshall T/C 23:06, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

It's not a quibble. The core content policies are V, NPOV, and NOR. SlimVirgin 23:34, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

The content policies are not directly part of WP:Article title but they are mentioned in the lead of the Article title policy with the wording "which should be interpreted in conjunction with other policies, particularly the three core content policies". This is because although we could ignore the content policies when deciding on an article title, in practice that would lead to more silly names rather than less. So while content polices and article naming are not part of the same house they are semi-detached. I would suggest that placing an additional sentence in the lead of this policy along similar lines for WP:COPYVIO would be a way forward. -- PBS (talk) 00:07, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

• Note: I originally put the RFC here, but there were objections so I've moved it.—S Marshall T/C 00:48, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Copyright in the body

This may be better as a different topic, but in the discussion above it was mentioned that the current wording states "Be mindful of copyright: do not copy text from copyrighted sources, or paraphrase too closely, without in-text attribution." That would seem to be accurate only in the case of direct quotes. In all other cases, it should read "Be mindful of copyright: do not copy text from copyrighted sources, or paraphrase too closely." I think it might be better to drop the "... without in-text attribution" part, as copyvio is copyvio whether or not you attribute it, yet the current wording seems to say that it is ok to add copyrighted material or closely paraphrase the text so long as you state where it came from. - Bilby (talk) 14:21, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

In conjunction with the copyright policy

Given the outcome of this Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)/Archive 83#RfC: What is the status of WP:COPYVIO? RfC. I am adding the phrase:

", in conjunction with the copyright policy,"

to the sentence in the lead:

"These policies jointly determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in articles."

The new sentence will read:

These policies, in conjunction with the copyright policy, jointly determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in articles.

--PBS (talk) 20:29, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

To be clear on the "outcome" of that discussion, it appears that one editor agreed with your suggestion and another disagreed. Are there other opinions on this? Location (talk) 21:04, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I make it two agreeing and one disagreeing, and the one saying he disagreed didn't in fact address the specific issue of the addition of these words. (I can add my agreement as well.)--Kotniski (talk) 07:53, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

The place to discuss changes to the policy is here, and I don't think anyone would argue that Misplaced Pages:Copyright is a core content policy. And it certainly doesn't determine the type and quality of material that's acceptable in articles. SlimVirgin 08:07, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

I would say it certainly is a core (i.e. very important) policy, and it certainly relates to article content, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to argue (as some have done) that it's a "core content" policy. Perhaps it doesn't determine the "type and quality..." exactly, but then that's not a very good description of what V/OR/NPOV do, either (and there are many other policies, guidelines and customs that do do that). Perhaps we could just drop all this peacock language and make a straight statement that these three particular policies overlap quite a bit (and then set to work trying to see if we really need three separate pages and what the scope of each page ought to be).--Kotniski (talk) 08:33, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

You've posted a contradiction in your reasoning. You are in favor of a wording change that states WP:COPY does "determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in articles", but then you state that " doesn't determine the 'type and quality...' exactly". Location (talk) 17:47, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

As one possible alternative (albeit without any substantial change in wording), move the reference to WP:COPY up to the section "Reliable sources and other principles" like this. By being in that section, it would better stress the importance of WP:COPY its relationship to the others. Location (talk) 18:12, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

The problem is the peacock sentence about V, OR and NPOV, rather than whether COPY should be added to it. There are multiple factors (mostly documented in various policies and guidelines, though not specifically these three) that "determine the type and quality of material acceptable in articles". If we replaced that sentence with a simple factual pointer to the reader, saying that issues very similar to the ones discussed in this policy are also discussed in OR and NPOV, then I don't think anyone could find anything to object to in it. --Kotniski (talk) 20:24, 16 February 2011 (UTC)