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Revision as of 16:32, 10 April 2006

excellent article! -- Tarquin 15:40 14 May 2003 (UTC)

Indeed, it does look very interesting. Good work, Mr. Tannin. I haven't read the whole thing carefully, but I'll do so a bit later. -- Oliver P. 16:02 May 14, 2003 (UTC)

Thankyou, gentlemen! There are a lot of rough edges as yet, but we will knock them over as time goes by. (Both here and in species, which is the other half of the same topic.) Thanks also to Micheal Hardy and Jimfbleak for cleaning up my dreadful spelling! Tannin

Subspecies in humans?

This article states what criteria make groups separate species, but it doesn't really state what exactly is a subspecies. My specific question is whether the different human races (white, African, Asian, etc.) are subspecies? — Timwi 13:54, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

As the definition is written it would seem we could divide humanity into several subspecies. That's probably what a Martian scientist would do, though we may be reluctant to do so ourselves. 212.30.207.97 00:12, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

HUH?!!...

Not really disputed so much as just really unclear....

"In taxonomy, a subspecies is the taxon immediately subordinate to a species. Members of one subspecies differ morphologically but sometimes only genetically from members of other subspecies of the species."

"but sometimes only genetically"????

What's that supposed to mean? Is it meant to say "sometimes not genetically"???

--Blackcats 19:57, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

If the specimens are different genetically, they also have to be different morphologically. 2004-12-29T22:45Z 02:36, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Untrue. Many nucleotide polymorphisms can have no phenotypic/morphological effect; e.g. see neutral mutations. --DAD 05:20, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Two issues in the article

"However, animals of the different subspecies of the same species might not interbreed even if geographical factor is removed." This statement seems to contradict the contents of the paragraph immediately preceding it. That paragraph seemed to indicate that a requirement for a group of individual organisms being clubbed together in the same subspecific category was that they would in fact interbreed, if only the obstacles (physical ones were cited as example) to doing so were removed.

Second, this article doesn't seem to give a "lower bound" on the definition: i.e. it explains a subspecies in terms of species (the coarser level of classification immediately above), but doesn't talk about what separates that taxonomic category from the immediately finer category that lies below it (subsubspecies?).

But I love wikipedia, and I love you guys. Keep up the fine work.

This is screwed up

The article contradicts itself. At first it says:

"If the two groups do not interbreed because of something intrinsic to their genetic make-up (perhaps black frogs do not find white frogs sexually attractive, or they breed at different times of year) then they are different species...If, on the other hand, the two groups would interbreed freely provided only that some external barrier was removed (perhaps there is a waterfall too high for frogs to scale, or the populations are far distant from one another) then they are subspecies."

OK, good enough. But toward the end of article...

"However, animals of the different subspecies of the same species might not interbreed even if geographical factor is removed. Differences in appearance and behavior rather often prevent the potential sex partners from recognizing each other as the sex partners. This is especially true for animals with complicated sexual rituals. Members of different species are incapable of reproduction, or produce an infertile offspring."

This is a direct contradiction with respect to animals that don't interbreed due to genetically-encoded behavioral differences. The first paragraph clearly says that they would be different species. The second implies (wrongly, in my view) that they would only be different subspecies.

Subspecies vs. race

What is the different between a 'subspecies' and a 'race'? No explanation can be found neither in this article nor the one for 'race'. (There is some discussion of it on the talk page for 'race', but nothing really clear.) Someone please explain. SpectrumDT 18:45, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Race (biology) might be better to use. However, I'm wondering myself about the distinctions between subspecies, race (biology), morph (zoology), cultivar, and strain (biology). There appears to be subtleties between them that I only partially grasp.

If anyone answers me, I'd appreciate a note on my talk page.

--zandperl 13:03, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Hybrids and species definitions

Honestly, the last part of this article is just wrong. Unfortunately, interbreeding is not a clear-cut means of defining species taxonomically. It was long thought that different species that succeeded in reproducing would produce only sterile offspring--but we now know that is definitely untrue. The production of fertile offspring (consistantly fertile) from a pairing of milk and corn snakes proves this. These animals aren't only different species--they're not even in the same genus! (Lampropeltis spp. and Pantherophis guttata). We've also discovered that some hybrid pairings produce sterile animals only part of the time. It's rare to find a fertile mule, but it has happened. More commonly, ligers and tigons (tiger/lion hybrids) have been found to be fertile. So this section needs to be changed to reflect the reality--at the very least, it must be mentioned that this is not a reliable indicator of species. --WingedWolf 10:31 AM mtn, 10 April, 2006