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Revision as of 02:40, 12 May 2011
**This user is NOW BAAAAAAACK! for a couple of days!**
They're threatening to ban you for an entire bloody year at Arbcom. Absolutely f**k*** outrageous!
Show them your article creation list, Sarah, I think you probably have the record.
Sure you lose your rag from time to time - but don't we all, especially when faced with extreme provocation and wind-up merchnats....Gaimhreadhan talk • 17:46, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
The result of this poll was that a huge majority of editors from sovereign Ireland opposed the current biased arrangements but the votes of British editors forced the retention of the contra WP:NPOV naming scheme. As they routinely do on the topic of the "British" Isles. And to compound this the Admins overseeing the vote censored the analysis of the votes which pointed this fact out.
I was me fully logged on, it's in the page history. I restored Enya to the list of people as she had been removed by an IP without any edit comment explaining why. It seems it was User:MaxPride was editing without logging on.
As for "Please do not edit pages if you are not knowledgeable on the subject" - if Max were to follow his own advice he'd never get out of his sandbox :) Sarah777 (talk) 14:31, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Having noticed your recent changes at some county articles, may i remind you there is still this to conclude. Consensus appears to be for option 3, which should thus be implemented. I was expected for HighKing to request a few more editors to give their opinion, but either he has and they haven't responded or he didn't. So should we implement what we can call the new agreed ledes? Mabuska17:14, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
I've no problem with implementing Option 3 - but it seems User:Hohenloh has. He removed part of the lede in at least four county articles stating that according to Misplaced Pages, et al, there is no such thing as an administrative county in Ireland. I have no idea if that is correct - but if it is we need an Option 3a.
I see that you classified the article as "start class". It is hard to see how much more apart from adding an image if any exists could be added to the article. Silent Billy (talk) 00:10, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
You have a point. I was ploughing through a huge backlog of unrated (1,500+) and picked things I had heard about, but mainly just to decide if it was a stub or start. There is a few (very few) obvious Cs. I've re-rated "Glimmer Man" to a "C". An image would be a great help though. When articles are about things that are of very local concern it is hard to see how the class can be much higher. In theory an article about the R110 road could be a featured article - but given it's importance and the fact that references will be so limited it is difficult to see how. Maybe WwCensor has a view? He is one of our resident expert on these rating matters. Sarah777 (talk) 00:25, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
Indeed I see you have been busy assessing or reassessing article. I've been working more on image copyright issues but still assess on occasions. I really cannot see any of the, almost 850, Regional roads being rated at more than "Low-importance," though a few very well known ones might qualify for a mid rating. Cheers ww2censor (talk) 02:45, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
Certainly a C is good for now, B would need great improvement and focus on the topic but the article has several issues; no lede, only one section. It seems a bit of rambling essay, however, that being said, the bulk is more about the gas companies than the Glimmer man himself, so sectionalising and moving the "A Low Lingering Flame" section up if new sections are created and decapitalising, would improve it in my view. Unfortunately there are likely few WP:RS. I'll look through some of my "Emergency" literature. ww2censor (talk) 16:01, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
News flash
I made a comment at the mushroom convention about personalities inviting sanctions, which although sadly is true, does not mean I would sanction anyone, just that is what might happen. I think you will understand, just noting it here quickly so you don't think otherwise. Sswonk (talk) 14:12, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
So you are the anonymous Rice Crispies man! I was out in the hills today on a photographic mission; the weatherman had promised sunshine and it was dull and cloudy all day. Then my beloved Cannon fell into a bog-hole. The when we got back to the carpark, there was the car - gone! Got back about 11pm. My mother told me there'd be days like this. Sarah777 (talk) 00:56, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
There has to be a reason. Please tell me you are serious, and what about the camera? Was the car a Camry? That would explain it, maybe, American or not. Then you could blog about the bog that ate your camera and Camry went in after it? Or something? Why would there be car thieves in the hills? Jesus, this is weird. Next thing your car turns up in Sevastopol and you just got back from Mars. I think. Sswonk (talk) 01:28, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
The camera was retrieved at the expense of one person (not me) getting very wet and very muddy. (Call me selfish and heartless). It didn't work at first but now that it is home and dry it seems to have regained its functionality. The car was reported to the Garda, obviously, but it is probably now a burnt-out hulk if it isn't being anally probed. That is as much as I know at this stage. It was a Quashqai (I realise I'm speaking of it in the past tense) - you probably don't have them in America. They are usually black though I have seen a silver one. When they are burnt out they probably all look the same. Let's just hope its Aliens. Sarah777 (talk) 01:41, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
Resembles the Rogue. Would you drive a Rogue, hmmm? Rogue, a non-conformist. Glad the picture taker is alright. I am guessing your bog diver is to be praised, thank him/her for me, you know I enjoy your photo eye. So back to the Quashqai, you are right, they name the devils after what they think the people that live in the countries where they are sold will like. A huge consideration for the carmaker. It might be in this case for NA it would be too close to Sasquatch, and negative connotations therein. Sasquatches and aliens, of those I tend to find higher likelihood of the existence of the former. Don't know if you saw User talk:Skookum1#Never back a sasquatch into a corner, related to something he laid out to Jimbo. Poor fellow, a good writer but obviously snapped at some of the very things that get you and me on the outs with this place for spells. BTW, I am really glad you are here. That "extra space" thing that keeps happening when you post, I think that must be something in gadgets you use that are conflicting. More after you reply. Sswonk (talk) 02:01, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
This discussion has this lyric playing in my head:
Nice! "Fuck your Mitsubishi, I've horse outside" grabs me from time to time. Speaking of cars, and Detroit (Eminem) (I don't recall the song, cheated google way) these photos, I keep going back to them. It is a case of severe urban decay, yet the images and graffiti are right breathtaking. The place, Michigan Central Station, is in some sort of legal limbo. By gadgets, the "extra space" thing, I mean in your wiki preferences, combined with Chrome (you said a couple days ago you use that). I would first try postng with a different browser, then try turning off gadgets (WikEd, Twinkle, HotCat, whatever you may use) until the problem goes away. Then you can relate the results and a possible solution can be found. Sswonk (talk) 02:51, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
I don't use any of them gadgets! (So far as I know). Horse outside was pretty good. I've read a lot about Detroit and it seems to be a modern example of a city being abandoned; they are knocking down neighborhoods and returning them to forest. Over here some folk seem to imagine that something that was built 200 years ago should be preserved forever because....it was built 200 years ago! They have no understanding that Georgian Dublin was as much a speculator/builder boom thingy as the ghost estates in Leitrim. Sarah777 (talk) 03:04, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
Horse outside: I smile at the part half way through where the priest and congregants are, like automatons reciting liturgy, obediently bored and following the lyrics to the song. We could indeed be thinking the same thing about the station. I really think, as the wiki article suggests is a possibility, having the Michigan State Police and US Homeland Security take over the place would be Orwell come to life in some ways. So, why not. Tear it down. I lived in Beacon Hill, Boston for a few years: due to my emotional attachment to the history, there are reasons I see for keeping many streets the way they are. There wasn't much there before the Georgian period. They are gaslit and mysterious, hills with small trees and four or five story red brick buildings, very evocative. Like a movie set, someone from the midwest might say. Or, like, the actual street John Hancock lived on I might. I see your perspective, however, will they really not want to tear down the malls in fifty years? I'll read the Georgian Dublin article. Check your preferences, fiddle, there must be something causing that extra space. Sswonk (talk) 03:23, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
I read the article on Georgian Dublin. Incredible, brilliant (if slightly terrifying) story, and I think good for the first part. But, at the end, it seems like a brochure for those who don't, let's say, share your Point of View... needs a little work in that regard. "Fears", the "war is not won". WTF. The problem is, the right replacement for the Georgian structures. It would bring about safer and better electrical, efficient infrastructure, less rats. As for the subject of writing, and renewal, uh, well there's this cheery side to the coin: "Today, the West End is an up and coming, thriving neighborhood,... " Someone's opinion. Thoughts appreciated, and never let anyone tell you what to do :). Sswonk (talk) 03:59, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
When everyone is up front and they're not playing tricks
When you don't have no freeloaders out to get their kicks
When it's nobody's business the way that you wanna live
I just have to remember there'll be days like this
I'm enjoying that sax solo, a nice peaceful respite to start the day. Sarah, that was quite a day you had on Monday. There's a confidence and serenity in the way you reacted here. Words are difficult at this point, but I am trying to express that it relates somewhat to a few of the things we have discussed or touched on recently. I mean the male/female ratio on wiki, and then the issues of censorship and what we should be talking about on talk pages. In my mind's eye it was you with your husband, you standing above looking out with concern while he dove into the bog hole, saving your camera. Then you both get back to find a missing Qashqai. Me, here three thousand miles away, I got a little excited and turned around by the images. I would email you about it, but I think it is relevant to express it publicly. A few days ago, I turned analytical and distant and removed an out-of-place comment you left on an article talk page, and O'dea's little aside there. Then O'dea and I sort of got into the same sort of idiotic talk page warfare. I was misunderstood, O'dea wildly speculating about my motives made it worse. O'dea, if you read this it isn't what you think, I made some judgement errors on the writing a little, but fundamentally I tell the truth. I still can't think of a way to explain all of that. Sarah, I do care for you and need you around in many ways, and your honesty about your day is entirely within reason. My own maleness and sort of "business trained" straight-lacedness would keep me from writing about it, I think. But I can offer this cathartic bit of commentary when you let it out such as you have. The talk page, this forum method we have of working this encyclopedia out is truly difficult and a huge impediment to friendship and understanding that might be available in real conversation. It creates monsters in each of our minds, all of us as we edit, I think. Like the monster right now, who sees what I am writing as hopeless timewasting nonsense. It is in me to want to not hit "save page", and cancel this thought. But you deserve to know, I really care about what happens with you and really wish that you thank who I think saved your camera. It is metaphorical. I would not ever want you to think people should "call me selfish and heartless" as you joked about yourself standing by while that muddy gallantry was happening. Humans are supposed to be empathetic and helpful. It defines us as a species. I would cite that, but I have to get coffee and go make money to survive. Basically, I am worried and proud. I find a lot of evil in what many of the leaders of this site find right about the Ayn Rand philosophies, I am not sure how much you are aware about that Sarah. The founder and several of his early core committee have that view, sadly so do many people in the world. Now is not the time nor place, but people such as yourself I find are more in tune with nature and how things really feel. The truth. I hope you understand and that today is less of a struggle for you than yesterday was. Sswonk (talk) 13:49, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
Well..eh...thanks for that :) The car turned up in Firhouse, abandoned and unburnt. Not even damaged. The police think it was some guys took it to drive home. So, car, camera - all safe. They even left a €300 lens in the glove compartment untouched. Weird. But yesterday was more an experience than a struggle. Struggle is what you do with three kids and no job; or when you hear you have cancer. Or maybe when you encounter the Wikichimps! Sarah777 (talk) 20:50, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
Good news. Happy for you. Got a stolen 'bike back once that I'd given up as 'spare parts for general distribution'. So, we can look forward to more lovely pics! RashersTierney (talk) 21:03, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
Today, a struggle to keep awake. It was also very foggy on the drive home once I headed down out of those Medford hills and got close to the ocean and home. Now I can't sleep, though. It is wonderful things worked out well for you, now I am not worried. It makes better sense. Since you got the car back and protest my use of the word struggle, I consider you over the "experience" so I don't feel bad bluntly asking: will you now vow to avoid leaving the keys in the car Sarah? I gotta say, that was not the best plan whoever came up with it. I mean, there are obviously car thieves in them hills... Sincere about the talk page world, it is a bear to contend with. Some of me above was overwrought, another pitfall. We're all free of guilt or obligation to that type of expressed need or at least should be. Dumb. More carefully phrased, sharing thoughts with you on this page has made being here more meaningful (or less depressing), for me. Considering ways you (and I have heard it directed to me at times, too) get called uncivil, wikichimps fits; if you ever doubt, don't buy it. And, I echo Rashers on the pics to come, looking forward. Sswonk (talk) 05:28, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Oi? I can't see your expression when I ask, again the talk page method caused a little friction? Well, I don't like frustrating you. I assumed one of you left the keys because you said there was no damage to the car. Thieves have to damage cars to steal them if they are locked, bypass the ignition switch with a screwdriver etc. Otherwise, they would steal a lot more cars if all they had to do was get in and drive. Still sucks, however it happened. How did the Garda explain no damage without keys? Sswonk (talk) 13:02, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
Sarah, I think the extra space in your posts is caused by using Chrome and WikEd in combination. I have Chromium, the Mac nightly build basically the same as Chrome, and when I used it and posted or even previewed the above with the WikEd gadget turned on, I get the extra line feed. Turn it off, no extra line feed. Click this link, http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Preferences#preftab-9 – at the bottom of the second section, see if you have "WikEd" checked. You probably do and are used to using it, so to stop the problem but keep WikEd, you need to start your comments without putting a return after the comment before yours when you start to reply. Then the space looks normal when you preview. Let me know if that works. Sswonk (talk) 13:02, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
I will try that. As to how they got into it I have no idea....unless...it....wasn't...locked. That is what the police suggested; a suggestion which is utterly rejected. (There is no external keyhole - it opens by a remote fob thingy). As for how they started it I have no idea - there was no sign of any tampering with the ignition, nothing. Aliens maybe after all? Sarah777 (talk) 18:47, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
Fantastic, I thought it must be something like that causing the extra space. Re: the car, that would drive me nuts. All I can say is, with keyless entry and modern ignition, it seems very strange. Joyriders could not do it, I wouldn't think, more like professionals. And professionals wouldn't leave it in Firhouse. Gnome from Tallaght or whatever, something spooky. Sswonk (talk) 00:57, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
Bored
A Cornish harbourFor some reason, I can't get interested in editing anything and end up striking up conversations with you. I think I am just bored. Eventually I'll get back to work. Anyway, the {{Infobox place Ireland}} was marked for deletion, but it can't be deleted until all the articles that use it are changed to use {{Infobox settlement}}. I switched Athy several days ago. Have you ever had a similar dilemma in your experience here? It is just in limbo, let me know if you have any info. I posted a question to the technical folks about getting that topographical/political switchable map code done, and am waiting for more input. Sswonk (talk) 18:35, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
'Twould be nice if the "places in counties" template could be re-worked to separate townlands from villages. I think we have agreement but I can't do it. Sarah777 (talk) 18:39, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
Each one is specific to the county. Here is Galway revised: {{County Galway}}. The issue for me is I don't know what townlands should be kept separated or left with the villages, it is esoteric and I don't know enough Irish geography. But, that is what you want, right? If so, I will give you an idea of how to make the sections, or you can give me a list of county templates whereby I can make empty sections for you to fill. Wouldn't want to do that unless you are actually online and will fix them quickly. Better, I think, to write up here how it is done. Give me an idea what you would like to do. Sswonk (talk) 19:33, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
Well, 99% of the time the distinction between a village and a townland is clear enough. But between town and village? In Ireland in some parts a population of 500 means a town; in the commuter belts several thousand could still be called a village. Sarah777 (talk) 19:50, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
It may be clear enough to you, but I had trouble. I based Galway above on the lead paragraph of each place, if it said "is a townland" then that got moved. But some did not say exactly that. That difference you mention between "town" and "village" is similar to "city" and "town" here, with a twist. In Massachusetts, every inch of land is either a town or city, there are 351 total. Simplified, a city has a mayor and a council, while a town has a town meeting only. However, several towns became cities but stipulated that they continue to be called towns. Thus we have, officially, places designated in legal texts as "The city known as the Town of X". It looks to me like the default in Ireland is townland, unless a village, town or city crops up. New Jersey is more complicated than either Mass or Éire! Well, is that Galway template I link above right? Sswonk (talk) 20:08, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
Yes it is. The stubs (they are hardly articles in most cases) usually state whether the place is townland or village. This I find to be generally reliable. Sarah777 (talk) 20:21, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
Hello. I noticed that you attempted to file a deletion discussion (on the article Springhill, Dublin) but did not complete the process. Please note that, when listing an article for deletion, a discussion page needs to be made for other users to discuss whether to keep or delete the article. This is typically done by following the steps listed here. Note that if you are editing as an unregistered user, you cannot create a discussion page. Please consider registering an account or asking another user to help you complete the process at Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for deletion. Thank you. I removed the tag on the page and the listing from the AfD list.MrKIA11 (talk) 02:56, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, it's a generic template used with Twinkle, but I figured it wasn't a big deal. I was thinking about seeing if it can be changed. MrKIA11 (talk) 00:55, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
Conscription Crisis
Hi Sarah. We havn't spoken in a while, but your recent edits to Conscription Crisis of 1918 caused me some concern. Firstly, describing the O'Brien's AFIL or Dillon's IPP as "pliant" applies a POV term where it is not required. (Or frankly fair or accurate). The term "moderate" would seem much more appropriate than one which suggests blind complicity. Secondly, your removal of the Craig quote left absolutely no explanation as to why the crisis changed inter-community perceptions. (You left "The conscription crisis was a watershed in relations" without any explanantion as to why or how). Happy to discuss suggested improvements, but replacing neutral terms with POV ones, and removing chunks in a manner which leaves threads hanging probably isn't ideal. Guliolopez (talk) 12:43, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
FYI, given that your issue with the Craig quote seems to have related to "undue weight" concerns, I have moved and summarised it significantly. I have also had another look to see if the "more moderate parties" text should be reworded. However "moderate" probably remains the most appropriate term. (Using "pliant" or similar in relation to the AIPL or IPP is simply not representative - in particular in the context of the article subject itself, where it's clear that the parties and members were anything BUT pliant)! Guliolopez (talk) 13:46, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
I'd agree "pliant" is pov. But so is "moderate". Hosni Mubarak, a brutal dictator, was routinely described as "moderate" in the Western media (I include Wiki in this - and could give hundreds of other examples). It has become a pov-laden weasel word. Sarah777 (talk) 21:53, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
I'm leaving this to the experts and heading for dreamland, done for the night. Ballymagovern and Ballymagauran are the same place, for example OSI mapviewer and Google Maps. Yet, there are two articles, one the Ballymagovern stub and the other for Ballymagauran townland and village which is where it should go, yes? You decide, and then please do whatever you would do like get BHG or someone to do the move and history merge to keep things proper. Have fun, and thanks – Sswonk (talk) 06:01, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
On the picture of the day above (link for when it's gone), the caption says: "Hands off! Touch not the Lord's gift". My idea is to add that to the rag tags. Certainly putting that text next to a flag will be an improvement almost more than the encyclopedia can bear! Sswonk (talk) 23:03, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
ANI
HJ, while I'm not a fan of flame wars per se, there is the heavily vetted article British Isles naming dispute which shows there is shared objection to the term at the highest levels of government, let alone by a lone Misplaced Pages editor using the spare "(sic)" now and again. Reading the section below taken from that article may remind you that everyday people and leaders alike, yes in 2011 in spite of the "disbelief" of one of Sarah's foils, disapprove of the term. So, if that "pointiness" is one reason you seem to ask for a public apology, I must object and state that it is not a valid one. Sswonk (talk) 01:06, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
I am inclined based on your recent edits to impose that sanction on a couple of articles which were mentioned in Mick's complaint above, if you do not intend to voluntarily significantly tone down your behavior there now. I urge you to curb your own behavior and address the concerns on ANI in a serious manner. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:03, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
As a note, since this (the issue raised on ANi) seems to have spilled over from the British Isles naming dispute topic area - it is also covered by British Isles Topic Probation. So, if I see this kind of rhetoric from you again Sarah777, or see further instances of it brought to AN, ANI, WQA, etc, in any dispute/contact with other editors related to Britain or Ireland or any of the associated naming disputes (or articles that link to them) you will be sanctioned as appopriate under the terms of the British Isles Topic Probation--Cailil16:05, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Not sure what you are on about - I have not systematically either removed of added "British Isles" from any articles. Any diffs? Sarah777 (talk) 20:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Perspectives in Ireland
Republic of Ireland
The perspective within the state of Ireland (which governs twenty-six of the thirty-two counties on the island of Ireland) is often quite different from the view in Britain. From the Irish perspective, the term "British" had never applied to Ireland until at least the late 16th century and onwards. This period coincided with the Tudor conquest of Ireland, the subsequent Cromwellian activities in Ireland, the Williamite accession in Britain and the Williamite War in Ireland—all of which resulted in severe impact on the Irish people, landowners and native aristocracy (see the Flight of the Earls and the Flight of the Wild Geese). From that perspective, the term "British Isles" is not a neutral geographical description but an unavoidably political term. Use of the name "British Isles" is often rejected in the Republic of Ireland and amongst Irish Nationalists in Northern Ireland because its use implies a primacy of British identity over all the islands including the Irish state, the British territories of the Isle of Man and Channel Islands and the United Kingdom; many feel that the term does not apply to what is now the Republic of Ireland since its secession from the United Kingdom.
Many political bodies (including the Irish Government) avoid describing Ireland as being part of the British Isles. The term "British Isles" is occasionally used at the governmental level in Ireland, as did Cabinet Minister (Síle de Valera) when delivering a speech including the term at the opening of a drama festival in 2002. "British Isles" has been used in a geographical sense in Irish parliamentary debates by government ministers, although it is often used in a way that defines the British Isles as excluding the Republic of Ireland. In October 2006, Irish educational publisher Folens announced that it was removing the term from its popular school atlas effective in January 2007. The decision was made after the issue was raised by a geography teacher. Folens stated that no parent had complained directly to them over the use of "British Isles" and that they had a policy of acting proactively, upon the appearance of a "potential problem". This attracted press attention in the UK and Ireland, during which a spokesman for the Irish Embassy in London said, "'The British Isles' has a dated ring to it, as if we are still part of the Empire".
Perspectives in Northern Ireland
Different views on terminology are probably most clearly seen in Northern Ireland (which covers six of the thirty-two counties in Ireland), where the political situation is difficult and national identity contested. A survey in Northern Ireland found that Unionists generally considered the British Isles to be a natural geographical entity, considering themselves primarily British with a supplementary Irish identity. Another survey highlighted the British and Irish identity of the Protestant community, showing that 51% of Protestants felt "not at all Irish" and 41% only "weakly Irish". In contrast, Nationalists considered their community to be that of the Irish nation—a distinct cultural and political community extending across the whole of Ireland. Identities were diverse and multi-layered, and Irishness was a highly contested identity; Nationalists expressed difficulty in understanding Unionist descriptions of Britishness.
The overall opinion of the Northern Irish people about the term (like the opinion of those in the Republic of Ireland and Great Britain) has never been formally gauged. Politicians from the Irish Unionist tradition readily use the term "British Isles"; the contrast between Unionist and Nationalist approaches to the term was shown in December 1999 at a meeting of the Irish Cabinet and Northern Ireland Executive in Armagh. The First Minister of Northern Ireland, David Trimble, told the meeting:
“
This represents the Irish government coming back into a relationship with the rest of the British Isles. We are ending the cold war that has divided not just Ireland but the British Isles. That division is now going to be transformed into a situation where all parts work together again in a way that respects each other.
”
In contrast, the Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, did not use the term in his address to the meeting.
At a gathering of the British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body in 1998, sensitivity about the term became an issue. Referring to plans for the proposed British-Irish Council (supported by both Nationalists and Unionists), British MP for Falkirk West Dennis Canavan was paraphrased by official note-takers as having said in a caveat:
“
He understood that the concept of a Council of the Isles had been put forward by the Ulster Unionists and was referred to as a "Council for the British Isles" by David Trimble. This would cause offence to Irish colleagues; he suggested as an acronym IONA-Islands of the North Atlantic.
”
In a series of documents issued by the United Kingdom and Ireland, from the Downing Street Declaration to the Good Friday Agreement (Belfast Agreement), relations in the British Isles were referred to as the "East–West strand" of the tripartite relationship.
"Geographers may have formed the habit of referring to the archipelago consisting of Britain and Ireland as the Britannic isles, but there never had been a historical myth linking the islands. Medieval historians, such as the twelfth-century Geoffrey of Monmouth, had developed the idea that Britain (i.e. England, Scotland, and Wales) had first been settled by Trojan refugees fleeing after the capture and destruction of their city by the Greeks. The founding monarch — Brutus — had then divided up the island between his three sons, the eldest (Albion) inheriting England and the younger sons Scotland and Wales. This permitted English antiquarians to claim a superiority for the English nation and the English Crown. In the fourteenth century the Scots developed their own counter-myth which acknowledged that Trojans had first occupied England and Wales, but asserted that Scotland had been occupied by colonists from Greece — the conquerors of Troy. Faced by such Scottish counter-myths and by the scepticism bred of humanist scholarship, few people took any of these historical claims seriously by 1600. English claims that kings of Scotland had regularly recognised the feudalsuzerainty of the English Crown had to be abandoned in 1603 when the Scottish royal house inherited the English Crown. But the fact is that many of the inhabitants of Britain — especially intellectuals around the royal Courts — had for centuries conceptualised a relationship which bound them together into a common history. There was no historical myths binding Ireland into the story. The term 'Britain' was widely understood and it excluded Ireland; there was no geopolitical term binding together the archipelago." John Morrill, 1996, The Oxford Illustrated History of Tudor and Stuart Britain, Oxford University Press: Oxford "When I refer to the composite monachy ruled over by James VI and I and by King Charles I, it is always described as Britain and Ireland, and I deliberately avoid the politically loaded phrase 'the British Isles' not least because this was not a normal usage in the political discourse of the time." Canny, Nicholas (2001). op. cit., p. viii.
On 18 July 2004 The Sunday Business Post questioned the use of British Isles as a purely geographic expression, noting:
"Last Post has redoubled its efforts to re-educate those labouring under the misconception that Ireland is really just British. When British Retail Week magazine last week reported that a retailer was to make its British Isles debut in Dublin, we were puzzled. Is not Dublin the capital of the Republic of Ireland? ... Archipelago of islands lying off the north-western coast of Europe?
Retrieved 17 July 2006
Norman Davies, op. cit. p.xxii.
"Irish Genealogical Sources No. 25 — History of the Royal Hibernian Military School, Dublin" uses the term "then British Isles" to refer to Ireland's relationship association with it prior to 1922.
"New atlas lets Ireland slip shackles of Britain". A spokesman for the Irish Embassy in London said: “The British Isles has a dated ring to it, as if we are still part of the Empire. We are independent, we are not part of Britain, not even in geographical terms. We would discourage its usage .”
Three sets of relationships were defined. (i) Within Northern Ireland. (ii) North–South for the relationship between Northern Ireland and the Republic, and (iii) East–West for relationships on the islands.
Aughrim, County Wicklow
Layout adjusted with replacement infobox and the photo moved, I think an improvement. It is very difficult to keep left aligned photos from interfering with the flow of text, making it a chore to read. I left the gallery for you to zap if you are so inclined. A good peaceful shot under the bridge, where the water flows and hypertension melts. I really don't want you to get uber banned so to speak; before you complain that you take no prisoners nor advice, trust me I do know that. I think you enjoy spending time here and making it better.
You wrote above, sometimes simple is best. Will you try not to change so much of the world all at once and just take a step back? There's venturing to those flag waving talk pages, but there are also exemplary talents you might share. So you could swear off the first a while, give it a break without losing your commitment. It's understood. Aughrim, County Wicklow. Peace. Sswonk (talk) 05:19, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Senior Editor of five years standing blocked by pov warriors
Interesting, is it not, that in the extract above, the Prime Minister of Ireland specifically stated that use of the term "British Isles" would cause offense to most Irish people yet an Irish editor of five years standing, 45,000 edits and hundreds of articles created and thousands of images added is now blocked for trying to resist the imposition of just such offensive pov. And blocked on the grounds that explaining why such pov is objectionable is itself objectionable. Sarah777 (talk) 21:42, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
You've pushed too far, Sarah. You are clearly incapable of editing in an environment driven by collaboration and consensus. You have used this project to push your personal point of view, which is borderline racist. While you're nwelcome to such opinions, they have no place on this project. Your continued personal attacks against editors who question you or disagree with you and with administrators who sanction you, even while you're blocked show me that your removal from this community will be of benefit both to it and probably to you. As such, I have blocked you indefinitely. While in most cases indenite does not mean infinite, in this case it does. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Judging from my preliminary, somewhat superficial reading of what happened, I doubt it, HJ Mitchell. But I will have a closer look tomorrow. HansAdler23:57, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
This Mitchell bloke appears to be some sort of English nationalist judging by the flags plastered over his pages - I mean is this appropriate for an admin? Can an admin who parades his nationality like this fairly judge the actions of what I am assuming is an Irish nationalist editor. I won't say he is anti-Irish but the indefinite blocking of this editor seems unreasonable. I am also concerned about the fact that the Admin has blocked or re-blocked over 5000 editors in just over 12 months - this seems a bit over the top to me. I mean where does he find the time to properly review an average of over 100 editors a week? His user boxes seem to indicate that he rejoices in the ability to "ban" editors. This statement Impeccable timing, I just found a vandal in need of a block. from the discussion on his talk page seems a bit on the triumphalist side. Silent Billy (talk) 00:33, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
The Arbcom ruling is clear that If a user banned from editing under this decision does so, they may be briefly blocked, up to a week in the event of repeat offenses. After 5 blocks, the maximum block shall increase to one year. Since Sarah77 was previously banned in 2008, and the ruling clearly states that one week is in the event of repeat offenses, can someone please readjust the block to use the correct Arbcom ruling? I'd say the original one week ban is probably the maximum in the spirit of this 4 year old Arbcom ruling. --HighKing (talk) 00:48, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
Without doubt this has got to be the most ill-judged and arrogant admin decision I've seen for months. It appears 're-mopping' has resulted in a surge of blood to someone's head. RashersTierney (talk) 01:03, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
I have posted my disagreement with this indefinite block at the AN/I thread. I intend to look into what happened. If you were able to post an account of what happened just before these edits for which you have been blocked, with diffs, that would help me. Take your time. --John (talk) 01:06, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
I peeked at your edits of May 8, 2011, in the infobox at British Isles. You must've known that replacing Dublin, Ireland with Belfast, Northern Ireland wasn't gonna last (and it didn't). GoodDay (talk) 03:10, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
It appeatrs that what I said has caused some confusion. This is a normal indefinite block, that is a block of no fixed duration, subject to the same rules as any other indefinite block. However, given your recent comments and your very long history of disruption and toxicity, I sincerely hope it is an infinite block, but sadly there's sweet FA I can do to prevent any other admin unblocking you. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
Altering of reference quotes
In the leadup to this, you made this edit to British Isles which changed the text in a quote from a book.
Were you aware at the time that it was in fact a reference quote, and not normal content text, when you made that change?
Nope, I hadn't spotted that GeorgeWillHerb. My bad. What's with this English Mitchell <redacted> being given power to goose-step across Irl Proj and Irish editors? How can such a person be an Admin? Don't tell me....I know Sarah777 (talk) 06:52, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
Final warning
this, your most racist attack, is completely unnacceptable. If you make one more defamatory, racist or otherwise uncivil remark your talk page access will be revoked. Should that happen the only communication option open to you will be to email the arbitration committee asking for a review of your community ban. Thryduulf (talk) 09:57, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
It's also difficult to see how someone can interpret the comment as a "racist attack". Even the Misplaced Pages definition states that "The British (also known as Britons, informally Brits, or archaically Britishers) are citizens of the United Kingdom, of the Isle of Man, any of the Channel Islands, or of any of the British overseas territories, and their descendants". Not a race or an ethnic group. Unlike the Irish which are an ethnic group. --HighKing (talk) 12:17, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
Thryduulf, if anything is completely unacceptable, then it is your apparent claim that "British" is a race. If that is not what you meant, then please explain what it is you meant. HansAdler12:38, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
I've struck the word "racist" in my above description of the edit in question as it is apparently proving divisive. The remainder of the warning stands. Thryduulf (talk) 14:32, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
Ok, I can't resist (I got no dog in this fight overall): this site is for nothing else and nothing else will be tolerated - says the guy with two articles created and only 25% of his edits to actual articles (as opposed to Sara's 54% and 449 articles). You know, the things that an encyclopedia actually consists of. Are you sure that the purpose of this site isn't a social networking site or a space for one group of people to lord it over another group?Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:23, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
Any complicated community like this needs ultimate arbiters of good behaviour - that's what admins are and most do a good job, including the ones mentioned here. They are bound to have high social space counts in the stats because all admins spend a great deal of time discussing by the nature of the job. Sadly, editing contact with a lot of articles or sheer volume of editing proves little; it's the quality that counts, not the quantity. Defending the sort of abusiveness that's gone on here to a logical conclusion would simply render Misplaced Pages unviable. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 20:29, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
I'll see your logical conclusion (actually, not really logical, but not illogical either) and raise you one - if everyone ran around just arbitratin' good behavior in others, no articles would get written and you wouldn't have an encyclopedia to play with in the first place. Sure, if a content creator gets uncivil, after a certain point an admin has a right and perhaps even a duty to block them. They DON'T have the right to show up on their talk page and lecture them about "what the encyclopedia is about" or engage in other forms of sanctimonious caged-bear-poking.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:11, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
If that's what was happening - what I see above is more editors attempting to justify and "join in" with the behaviour so imnsho the admin is correct to come and warn. Perhaps your comments about time wasting on social spaces would be better directed at editors who feel a burning need to chip in to battling than admins who attempt to put out the fire. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 21:34, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
I am referring to this "I would also strongly suggest that this Mitchell pov-warrior withdraw his "borderline racist" charge. "British" is not a race - it is an institution with a history of genocide, not least in Ireland", as it is the diff provided, nothing racist about that or is it an attack. I have made no comment on anything else she has said as I don't know what she has said. Mo ainm~Talk20:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
Kittens promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better.
Remarkable that Sarah is blocked for attacking the English by an English admin. She uses strong wording, agreed, but this looks more on a personal POV-revenge. Eddylandzaat (talk) 15:09, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
The troll is gone...though I notice none of the baiters are attracting any sanction at all from our self-regarding Admins. Sarah777 (talk) 19:40, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
Maybe I need to get a life....
Hey, I've stumbled on you comment in bold font at Template_talk:British_English#Flag. Hmmm, maybe we both need to get a life. I usually support removing flags and maps as a way to make the nationalism troll hungry. It might appear though as if you are commenting on contributors and not on contributions. Do you believe that everybody would see that as constructive? Cheers, AgadaUrbanit (talk) 15:33, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
PS. I got edit conflict while commiting, originally this was supposed to be a section of its own and now it is under Very Strange. Yep after the merge, it appears not everybody see the bold as constructive. Stay well. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 15:33, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
A minor point; there is a (very occasional) Wiki-editor who resides in this house who is now, de facto, also blocked "infinitely". He has committed no sin yet is unable to edit the "encyclopedia anyone can edit". Unless he moves house. But what's another Irish editor blocked from Wiki?
If I am not allowed to explain why the imposition of British pov, flags etc on Irish articles is so offensive - what's the point? The refusal to allow the obvious and valid analogy is not enforcement of civility - it is naked political censorship.
There is a pink box from the British editor, HJ Mitchell, that states:
00:35, 10 May 2011 HJ Mitchell ( changed block settings for Sarah777 with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation blocked) (racism, battleground behaviour and total failure to adhere to the most basic principles of editing in a collaborative environment continuing even during a block.) Now, manifestly, I have never said anything that could reasonably be deemed "racist" - not remotely - yet that still stands on the top of my page. And instead of censoring this editor for far worse than "incivility" the Admins do nothing (except pile in here in support of this person).
Regarding the editor with whom you reside, if they have an account that they are unable to use due to your block (if that account is not also blocked then afaict they should be able to) then Misplaced Pages:IP block exemption should (if I have understood it correctly) be able to fix this. As your block is not of an IP address/range but of a registered account I don't think this will be an issue. If they do not have an account but want one, then they will not currently be able to create one themselves but Misplaced Pages:Request an account allows one to be created on their behalf. They should not use your account to edit from, regardless of whether you are blocked or not. Thryduulf (talk)
Lime
Photograph credit: Ivar Leidus
