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Definition of astrology The statement that astrology 'is' divination is misleading because it ignores the Aristotelian tradition of western astrology as natural influence. (See John North, 'Celestial Influence – the Major Premiss of Astrology’, in , Stars, Minds and Fate: Essays in Ancient and Medieval Cosmology, London, The Hambledon Press 1989, pp. 243-98; David Pingree, ‘Astrology’ in Philip P. Wiener (ed.), Dictionary of the History of Ideas (New York, Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1973), Vol. 1, p 118-126.). It also fails to account for radically different views of what divination is. I would suggest replacing this statement with a definition of astrology, such as Patrick Curry's, which might then in turn lead to a discussion of astrology as different phenomena - as magic, spirituality, science, pseudo-science, art, religion, psychology, or any of the other descriptions of it. Curry wrote: ‘Astrology is the practice of relating the heavenly bodies to lives and events on earth, and the tradition that has thus been generated’ (Curry, Patrick, ‘Astrology’, in Boyd, Kelly (ed.) The Encyclopaedia of Historians and Historical Writing, 2 Vols. London: Fitzroy Dearborn 1999, Vol. 1, pp 55-7 (p. 55)). By the way, I see no reason why this page can't be improved without controversy by balanced attention to both scholarly and primary sources.Paul Quigley (talk) 08:17, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Notable astrologers

I asked the Crestone Astrologer who he considered notable astrologers and here is his list:

• Dane Rudhyar
• Robert Hand
• Steven Forrest
• Isabel Hickey
• James Braha

He agrees that our article is a train wreck and, of course, considers calling astrology a pseudoscience an insult; also: "We don't claim astrology is a science; it is divination informed by intuition." We fail... User:Fred Bauder Talk 18:38, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Considered a notable astrologer by whom and on what basis? Train wreck? A work in progress, I think. Fail? Nothing is ever a failure until it's done, and we're not done here yet. Regards — Peter S Strempel | Talk 20:45, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

@Fred, Great to include those names. Hopefully we can also characterize their different styles/approaches, give some brief background on their education and notability.

Astrology may not be 'pseudoscientific' in all hands, but it's definitely 'unscientific' in most. If that's what we're trying to get across, we can always just say that "science doesn't accept that astrology is effective or that there is any non-physical correlation (tides, etc.) between planetary movement and human behaviors". It may be true that calling astrology a pseudoscience is only in response to the small group of astrologers who claim that serious research supports their position. Since they are representing astrology as backed by science, and often speaking in scientific terms about mechanisms and paradigms, for them 'pseudoscience' does apply, at least from the POV of scientific consensus. On the other hand, to the extend that astrologers make predictions at all, it is kind of a pseudoscience, even as a form of structured divination. Divination has a set of procedures to determine and analyze the future. To the extent that divination process is more than intuition, and especially when it involves a purportedly non-arbitrary interface such as the planets (rather than tea leaves or dice or tarot cards), there is a similarity to science, a pretense to science, even if not intentional, that is basically pseudoscience. Maybe a better term would be pseudo-rational, but that sounds even worse and just isn't the term used by RS. Ocaasi 20:48, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't think a list of notable astrologers (particularly historically as well) could be complete without including the likes of:

• Ptolemy
• Vettius Valens
• Guido Bonatti
• Liz Greene
• William Lily
• Evangeline Adams

All of whom are notable for the influence or fame in their lifetimes (Liz Greene is of course still alive). To not include Ptolemy on a list of notable astrologers, for example, would be mind boggling.

Xpaulk (talk) 12:59, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

The train-wreck analogy has too much finality for me. The train needs to unload some unnecessary freight and the carriages need refurbishment, but we are still on the rails.

The omission of traditional astrologers especially Ptolemy and Lily needs to be corrected. The problem I have with inclusion of late 20th and early 21st century astrologers like Steven Forrest and Isabel Hickey, is that there are many others who also merit a mention such as Bernadette Brady, Dr Nicholas Campion, Alexander Ruperti, Dr Richard Tarnas, Derek & Julia Parker, Noel Tyl, Bruno & Louise Huber, Howard Sasportas, Sue Tompkins, Dr Bruce Scofield, Dr Pat Harris plus many more. Most of these are authors and outstanding educators. It is difficult to establish their status objectively and impossible to know their impact on the field of astrology in decades to come. Robert Currey talk 13:24, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

"It is difficult to establish their status objectively and impossible to know their impact on the field of astrology in decades to come". Quite probably. Hence, per Misplaced Pages policy, we don't include them in the article. See WP:NOTCRYSTALBALL (and perhaps irony ;) ). AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:38, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree. I'd be all for removing the majority of the modern astrologers unless they are exceptional in some way. For example Evangeline Adams is noteworthy, not because of her amazing astrological abilities, but because she was focused upon in a legal setting having been acquited of fortune telling - in other words she's notable due to a kind of precedence being set regarding the legality of fortune telling in New York. Liz Greene should be noted because she is credited with altering a negative perception of Saturn in her book Saturn a new look at an old devil. Either way the old authors, who certainly did shape astrology, should be noted without a doubt, particularly Ptolemy. Xpaulk (talk) 10:46, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

How can we edit the page to include a list of notable astrologers? Xpaulk (talk) 09:19, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Revision of Criticism

This article has criticisms of astrology sprawled haphazzardly all throughout the article. I suggest we clear up the article by creating a section for "Scientific viewpoint and criticisms", in which we can put all such criticisms. For example, the opening section, which should describe what Astrology is, suggests that "The scientific community bases astrology's pseudoscientific status in its making predictive claims which either cannot be falsified or have been consistently disproved." this is in spite of the fact that there is already a section dedicated to science's opinion of astrology. As such this paragraph is better suited to that section. I suggest the entire article is revised to place such criticisms and scientific rebuttals in their own section. This was clearly the original intent of including sections such as "Astrology and Science". Xpaulk (talk) 08:43, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

That is not how things are done at Misplaced Pages. It is not satisfactory to make an unqualified assertion in one part of an article when the assertion has received appropriate criticism from suitable sources. Johnuniq (talk) 10:49, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

WP:CRITICISM is worth reading. We have some flexibility but separate criticism sections are generally a symptom of bad writing. That said, I'm not opposed to it if the section is robust and it facilitates more productive content editing. Ocaasi 13:20, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

just as a note, WP:CRITICISM is not an excuse for indulging in bad writing; if the article is just being argumentative then probably what needs to happen is that excess criticism gets pruned, and a criticism section could help with that. but... --Ludwigs2 17:12, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

" 'Just a pseudo-science' is a wholly inadequate characterization of ancient astrology." -- Roger Beck, A Brief History of Ancient Astrology — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.114.97.178 (talk) 12:30, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

We don't say that. There was no science, therefore no pseudoscience. Astrology couldn't pretend to be something that did not exist yet. — kwami (talk) 12:40, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from P.Ganakan, 22 April 2011

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in Kerala a southern state of India, The Ganaka/kaniyar Panicker/Kaniyan community is well known for their traditional practice of astrology (Jyothisaha) P.Ganakan (talk) 17:47, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Please explain the notability of such information. Moreover, Misplaced Pages cannot be a reference for another Misplaced Pages article. OrangeMarlin 19:13, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 78.2.93.209, 24 April 2011

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Please remove qualification (condemnation) from old resources cited opinion, attitude and view of astrology (which is not information, but declaration of view), as not neutral and not true.(false., one statement):

Astrology is a system of divination founded on the notion that the relative positions of celestial bodies are signs of or—more controversially among astrologers—causes of destiny, personality, human affairs, and natural events.

and please replace with:

"Astrology is a system of founded on the notion that the relative positions of celestial bodies are symbols in correlation to personality, human affairs, and natural events. Founded by astrological notion : As above so below."

and please replace :

"In its modern form, it is a classic example of pseudoscience."

with this true information:

"Some of skeptic and religious description of astrology believe that astrology is pseudoscience"

Reason for replacement is: point of view is part of public view, not represent true information, and come from people without objective information in field or knowledge in field, false information, wrong subject, partial view of subject, misinformation. Reason for deletion original "pseudoscience" term is: astrological symbols are part of human culture, and methodology can not be copy of scientific, false scientific 2000 older than term pseudo-scientific. Also, astrology can not be in whole picture of some uninformed person, nor one part of this big and large human activity.

I suggest changing the introduction to more fully encapsulate the essence of what astrology is. I propose

Astrology is the practice of relating the heavenly bodies to lives and events on earth, and the tradition that has thus been generated.

I would cite Dr Nick Campion and Patrick Curry as references, both of whom are also historians. It is false to say that astrology is founded by the notion 'as above so below', as this statement only emerged from the Corpus Hermeticum and clearly astrology by far predates that. Xpaulk (talk) 09:23, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

78.2.93.209 (talk) 03:06, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Please see WP:NPOV. It is not the purpose of articles to be balanced between two points of view. It cannot give undue weight to fringe theories. Until you have some scientific evidence that one can predict anything based on the stars, then it is absolutely a pseudoscience. OrangeMarlin 03:12, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

You say "It is not the purpose of articles to be balanced between two points of view. It cannot give undue weight to fringe theories."

WP:UNDUE would apply to a discussion of astrology in an article that is about some other subject. But this article is about astrology. One of the complaints about astrology is that so many people give it credence. But even if only a tiny minority believed that astrology had validity, it would merit an article in Misplaced Pages if it met the test of notability. WP:UNDUE says that "views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views." This is an article that is devoted to astrology. To claim that the very subject matter of an article has undue weight amounts to a challenge to the existence of the article. The appropriate tool for a challenge to the existence of an article is WP:NOTE. But the notability of astrology is not questioned. Bn (talk) 19:34, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

We don't deny the mainstream viewpoint about a Fringe subject just because it's a Fringe article. But Bn is right that we don't give it that much attention either. This article currently has a decent amount of the critical response to astrology, but the better solution to that is to increase the amount of content about astrology, not to remove the noteworthy criticism. Notability was being used as a shorthand for Weight--reliably sourced content deserving mention. Ocaasi 02:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

This WP entry is not working. A suggestion for a new approach.

Sorry to be a negferret, but this WP entry is notably bad, for many reasons. Maybe it's because there are too many images but even the layout is a mess. Huge chunks of white space between the sections. Some sections are heavily overworked whilst others have insufficient content/just a link. (Perhaps it looks fine on a laptop or differrent sized monitors?)

What is on display generates a lot of controversy - unecessarily I think. (I've just come from a page on a holocaust denier, and by comparison that page is informative and credible and lacks the emotive tone that this one does). For all the discussion assertions of NPOV etc; this page strikes the reader for its lack of clear, effective reporting. Reading through the discussions it seems that contributors are at war across conflicting viewpoints. This page has no hope of salvage whilst that remains the case. (I am an editor who wants to improve the quality of WP,BTW, I am not arguing for or against astrology).

Maybe the subject itself is too big and difffuclt to define, but the whole thing smacks of chaos and suffers from a lack of consistency. Why not consider a new approach - scrap this page down to one short introductory comment on how astrology differs from astronomy, and simply lead that into a well organised list of hierarchical links that lead to different sections. Then you can eliminate concerns such as a western notion of astrology misrepreseting eastern notions, etc; and the discussions on the science of astrology and the history of astrology can be expanded appropriately.

It looks like the group has made a half-hearted movement towards this approach but it doesn't work because it's not fully efective, and now the whole page looks like a mess of different people trying to make the page say what they want it to say. Be dramatic and segregate it all. As it is, this is not working as an introduction to the subject at all. Sorry. If there is any leg work I can help with that, but for now just passing on my view.Selkhet (talk) 09:06, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not a expert on this subject or very familiar with this article, but I don't consider Selkhet's suggestion to be outrageous at all. I've seen long articles burnt down to a stub for complete rebuilding a couple of times, to good effect. It is rare and is an extreme measure. Whether this article requires such an extreme measure I don't know. Maybe. Herostratus (talk) 16:03, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

definiton of astrology

I am proposing to change the first sentence which makes the misleading claim that astrology 'is' divination, in line with my post of 20 june on this page. Does anyone wish to comment? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paul Quigley (talk • contribs) 19:20, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I have no problem with an assertion that astrology 'is' divination. A claim that divination works would be another matter. I think that the rest of the sentence makes clear that it is 'presumption' rather than fact - so I don't see the need for change. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:59, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Surely, though, the issue is not whether you have a problem with the statement that astrology 'is' divination. Plenty of commentators, bith critics and supporters of astrology, dscribe it as divination. The issue for an encyclopaedia article is whether this decsribes the whole picture. If an astrology of natural influence practiced within an Aristotelian context has no need of the divine in any sense, how is that divination? We need to look at the bigger picture in which astrology can be divination, but is not necessarily so. I'm pasting in four other definitions below, all sourced, which illustrate the problem

Concise Oxford Dictionary, Clarendon Press 1952. (Formerly) practical astronomy (also called natural ~); art of judging of reputed occult influence of stars upon human affairs (judicial ~)

David Pingree, ‘Astrology’ in Philip P. Wiener (ed.), Dictionary of the History of Ideas (New York, Charles Scribner’s Sons), Vol. 1, p 118. ‘the study of the impact of the celestial bodies - Moon, Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, the fixed stars and sometimes the lunar nodes - upon the sublunar world... The influence of the celestial bodies is variously considered to be absolutelydeterminative of all motions of the four sublunar elements (Aristotelian physics is accepted as the basis for describing this influence...’ http://xtf.lib.virginia.edu/xtf/view?docId=DicHist/uvaBook/tei/DicHist1.xml;chunk.id=dv1-20;toc.depth=1;toc.id=dv1-20;brand=default

‘Astrology’ in Chambers Encyclopaedia, Intellectual Learning Systems, London 1970, p 724. ‘Astrology (Greek astrologos, ‘science of the stars’) in early times was a comprehensive term for the study both of the motions of the heavenly bodies and of their supposed influence on human and terrestrial affairs’. Paul Quigley (talk) 13:44, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Astrology is divination in the sense that the reading of mere physical traits of relative planet location are taken to indicate personalities, life-choices, and human events. For those who don't think astrology follows physics, divination is exactly what that entails. For those who think there is a 'deep connection' that is ultimately physical, astrologers are still divining what the physical evidence means. For those who think astrology has a hidden mechanism of 'aristotelian' physics, well, they have yet to prove it with modern physics, and the gap between the belief and the proof is exactly where divination resides. So, my comment is that only if we were to assume the conclusion that astrology is real and science-based would it be appropriate to exclude divination from the definition. I don't think it is. Ocaasi 14:42, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Ocaasi that divination should not be excluded, though if it is to remain somewhere in the Lede it should be related to the various alternative models of astrology. As Paul Quigley correctly states divination is only part of astrology and does not adequately describe the entire field of astrology. So divination is inappropriate and misleading as the sole initial definition of astrology.

As stated on the Astrology page (see Mechanisms section), divination is one of at least three possible mechanisms for astrology. Though apart from within natural astrology (tides, weather, seismic activity and planet-sunspot activity) these mechanisms are not yet known. However, merely obtaining data via an unknown mechanism does not define a practice as divination.

Divination entails obtaining supernatural insight into the future through access to a higher force or divine power. This can be through a raised state of consciousness or even a trance such as clairvoyance or clairaudience or clairsentience. Or the insight comes via what some would label a random activity and others a manifestation of a higher or divine source which includes the Tarot, I-Ching, Runes or even Tea-Leaves. Though some consider ESP to be a natural sixth sense, all these practices are commonly considered divinatory.

Divination is not just a possible mechanism. Astrology can be used in a divinatory way or can be viewed as originating from the operation of a divine force. However, most astrologers work as you know with a predictable scientific model of the solar system measured in 2D space and time. To most astrologers, including software programmers like myself, this operates according to the workings of Newtonian and subsequent celestial mechanics rather than by divine intervention. Whether you consider that astrologers reach conclusions that can be supported by objective evidence or whether it is purely subjective or simply imaginary, their technique is mostly through interpreting objective data consciously. This process is usually both logical and intuitive. However, intuition is not the same as divination. Robert Currey talk 09:56, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

"Divination entails obtaining supernatural insight into the future through access to a higher force or divine power". Not unless you have a reliable source for that, it doesn't. It may sometimes be based on an assumption that this is what is happening, but that isn't the same thing at all. Unless evidence can be provided that demonstrates how (if?) astrology works, it is divination. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:36, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Divination, "the art or practice that seeks to foresee or foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge usually by the interpretation of omens or by the aid of supernatural powers" (Websters). It is an accurate description. TFD (talk) 12:54, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting excluding divination as an explanation for astrology, for some forms of it, such as Babylonian astrology are based on communication with divinity, and both some modern practitioners and commentators say that it is divination. However, I think the article needs to begin with a broad definition that allows for different approaches, practices and truth claims. I don't think that any definition of astrology caries any implication for its truth or not, only for the nature of its claims and philosophies - I don't think that to exclude divination from the the initial definition means that it is real and science-based, only that it includes different truth claims and forms of practice some of which claim natural influence or do not require divinity.Paul Quigley (talk) 04:33, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

You are misreading the definition. It does not matter if the mechanism that allows astrologists to access hidden information is supernatural or could be explained by yet unknown physical causation not yet explained. The point is that no physical laws have been advanced. It could be similar to folk medicine, which in many cases is beneficial but the witch doctor does not know for example that the remedies include active ingredients rather than mystical properties. TFD (talk) 04:53, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

So the argument goes that the entire field of astrology is best described as divination because the mechanism which is not, as yet, known can only be termed supernatural, regardless of what the proponents theorize, claim or believe.

This is not consistent with situations where evidence precedes a known mechanism. Before Louis Pasteur was able to confirm germ theory, there was no claim that the evidence from Ignaz Semmelweis that hygiene reduced mortality was as a result of supernatural forces. Or that Wegener’s theory of continental drift was caused by supernatural forces, even though the mechanism was not known and is still debated among geophysicists and geologists. When a scientist forecast that the Pacific tectonic plate was likely to continue to move in a westerly direction, was that divination? Nowadays, though a few believe that supernatural or divine forces fill the gaps in the Big Bang theory, most scientists researching the field believe that the unknown forces within the Universe like quantum gravity or dark energy will be accounted for by natural laws.

So when labelling a field, it is misleading to put one theory above the competing claims, theories and the beliefs of the proponents whether we agree with them or not.

For the record, I consider that most but not all astrological correlations have no known mechanisms. Robert Currey talk 18:05, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Your entire argument is based on the premise that there are mechanisms. As such, it is of little relevance until the mechanisms have been demonstrated to exist. You cannot assert that 'astrology isn't divination' by making predictions about it being proven to work by some as-yet-unknown mechanism at some undetermined point in the future. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:19, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Scientists may observe connections between seemingly unconnected phenomena and seek to explain them, always being aware that the apparent connection may be coincidental. But astrologists do not operate that way. And no there does not have to be a conjecture of supernatural or divine forces in order for it to be divination. Notice the use of the word usually. U S U A L L Y. It means not always, but most of the time. TFD (talk) 19:39, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

For what it is worth, I believe that most social scientists would class astrology as a form of divination, and this is a proper use of the word. But really, this argument should be resolved through sources. If recent studies of astrology categorize it using other terms, we should consider those too. Note 90 is not a historian/anthropologist/sociologist of religion or the occult, and does not seem to use the word divinationSlrubenstein | Talk 21:07, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

AndytheGrump – I am not claiming “astrology isn’t divination” just that not all astrology is divination and not all astrologers practice divination. It’s not about whether mechanisms exist or will be shown to exist or not. For our purposes here, this is unknown. The point is that some astrologers attribute repeating correlations to a supernatural or divine force that can never be truly known or defined by science, while others consider there are unknown causal mechanisms and others consider it accausal. To claim that it is all divination is a value judgement favouring one of at least three competing beliefs. It is not our place to side with one view point especially when we are defining a field.

TFD – I hope I have not misunderstood your points.

Your first point appears to be that rules for scientists don’t apply to astrologers because they lack critical thinking. This is not correct - a number of astrologers work on an empirical basis. However, everyone including scientists and astrologers can confuse coincidence with correlation and correlation with causation. (This deserves a fuller answer, but it is getting off-topic and I would be happy to elaborate on your Talk Page).

“there does not have to be a conjecture of supernatural or divine forces in order for it to be divination” My understanding from this is that you are implying that someone like a stock market analyst may believe they are being logical and intuitive when they are really tapping into supernatural powers and therefore practicing divination? Unless you can provide objective evidence for supernatural powers, we cannot ignore the belief or claim or techniques of the forecaster.

“I believe that most social scientists would class astrology as a form of divination” Excuse my scepticism, but doesn’t this distinction advance their claim to being scientists?

My point is that as the sole definition of astrology, divination is at worst inadequate and at best contentious. Divination was only arbitrarily (IMO) inserted in March this year just after six editors with astrological expertise were banned from this page for the crime of presenting an inconvenient truth with a little too much enthusiasm IMO. So there has never been a full and fair discussion. Following the proposals by Paul Quigley and Slrubenstein, we should now consider alternative, broader and more modern neutral definitions of astrology. Robert Currey talk 11:21, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

You are missing the point. Technical analysis of stock markets has been accused of being similar to astrology. It is of course possible to provide scientific analysis to the claims of astrology, but astrologists do not do that because no test could consistently show any connection between heavenly events and terrestial activity that could not be explained by existing science. TFD (talk) 12:04, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

TFD - You raise a lot of points that I have discussed extensively and intend to do so on this page or elsewhere. I agree with some and on others I believe you are perpetrating popular but unsupported myths. However, I now think we are splitting hairs in relation to the original point. This conversation would be more relevant at some stage in relation to a much-needed review of the astrology and science section. It's now time to look at verification with references. Robert Currey talk 12:47, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Hi Slrubenstein, rather than saying 'I believe that most social scientists would class astrology as a form of divination', can you give sources and then we can discuss them. My point is that we need to be working from the best sources. Now, regardless of whether there is any truth or validity in astrology or not, it needs to be represented properly, and if it is defined simply as divination and if divination requirs some supernatural agency, then the entire Aristotelian tradition in western astrology is ignored. In Aristotelian celestial mechanics the cosmos operated on the basis of causes and influences, with no necessity for any divine agency. In medieval Islam, and in Europe from the 12th to 17th centuries the naturalistic rationale for astrology was crucial as it protected astrology from religious disapproval. The Aristotelian definition for astrology is given by David Pingree as follows: ‘the study of the impact of the celestial bodies - Moon, Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, the fixed stars and sometimes the lunar nodes - upon the sublunar world... The influence of the celestial bodies is variously considered to be absolutely determinative of all motions of the four sublunar elements (Aristotelian physics is accepted as the basis for describing this influence...’ David Pingree, ‘Astrology’ in Philip P. Wiener (ed.), Dictionary of the History of Ideas (New York, Charles Scribner’s Sons), Vol. 1, p 118. http://xtf.lib.virginia.edu/xtf/view?docId=DicHist/uvaBook/tei/DicHist1.xml;chunk.id=dv1-20;toc.depth=1;toc.id=dv1-20;brand=default There is a wikipedia page on Pingree. Also, I recommend LeMay, Richard, Abu Ma'shar and Latin Aristotelianism, Beirut: American University of Beirut, Oriental Series no. 38, 1962. North, John, 'Celestial Influence – the Major Premiss of Astrology’, in , Stars, Minds and Fate: Essays in Ancient and Medieval Cosmology, London, The Hambledon Press 1989, pp. 243-98. Can we move the discussion on from unsourced claims and work from sources. Hi this post was from me Paul Quigley, I don't know why it didn't sign my namePaul Quigley (talk) 11:44, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Paul, you may want to look up the word "but" in the dictionary. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:53, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Slrubenstein, I apologise, I was too hasty in reading your post. I appreciate your pointPaul Quigley (talk) 17:30, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

This conversation is interesting (and my fault, since I added divination during the definition discussion a few months back). Our article on divination defines it as "The attempt to gain insight by way of a standardized process or ritual". I can't see how that definition doesn't fit even the more rigorous and technical astrological approaches. I think giving credence to the possibility of a mechanism while the conclusions are nonetheless taken for granted is the essence of divination. Nobody who practices reiki knows how the energy is transmitted but they operate on the assumption that it is. This element of practice preceding understanding is common to the paranormal arts. It's also, fairly, part of frontier scientific fields to a degree--but the difference is that those fields have a way to explore the connection and people who are working seriously at doing so (and those people are published, peer-reviewed authors). Astrology, a few isolated individuals aside, is not an art in search of a mechanism; it's a systematic process of divination in which the root correlations between planetary position and human behavior are assumed. (Hi Robert! Sorry we meet again at cross purposes... hope things are going well for you). Ocaasi 18:22, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Divination being "The attempt to gain insight by way of a standardized process or ritual" seems to cover astrology, but is this definition too broad to satisfy the distinctions this article tries to make? Aren't standardized processes used throughout science to gain insight? One has to wonder how for example Watson and Crick (using Franklin's data) could have gained insight into the structure of DNA without standardized processes. Are our insights into DNA, hence all the implications for genetics and personality, then the product of divination? Ken McRitchie (talk) 04:15, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Hi Ocaasi, all well thanks and you?

Further to the point made by Ken McRitchie, my problem with divination as The attempt to gain insight by way of a standardized process or ritual is that it is a Barnum Statement – in this case meaning all things to all professions from scientific research to accountancy. Also the source from a relatively unknown anthropologist in a specialist book on African Divination is not very solid.

Our problem in seeking a definition for astrology is that astrology can be loosely placed into many arguable categories, but the entire field does not naturally fit into any one.

Even if we go against the historical tradition of astrology and most practitioners and even if we ignore the evidence from natural astrology (tides, weather, seismic activity, sunspots) and assert that astrology operates by supernatural forces, astrology still does not naturally fit into divination. For example, astrology is distinctly different from other forms of divination in that the source of the data (planetary movements) is objective, permanent, universal and not random and the interpretation is subject to rules that require years of study rather than being a 'gift'. Most astrologers stick to astrology, while most psychics use a variety of divinatory techniques like tarot or clairvoyance and their use of astrology is usually limited to sun signs and using the chart as a medium for divination rather than interpretation and analysis.

We can look at classifying astrology, (here I am loosely interpreting your proposals) as a practice based mainly on subjective interpretation of objective data without known mechanisms and without an organised quest for a mechanism. This definition places astrology closer to ‘alternative’ medicine or even psychology rather than divination.

The point is whichever way we try to define astrology, divination is insufficient and as such misleading.

Can we do better with a broader definition from a reliable source? Paul Quigley has put forward some well sourced definitions which we should consider. I don’t have access to any modern encyclopaedias. Ocaasi, which references did you use for divination and are they the ones cited on the page? Please can you also provide us with other references to which you referred when you selected divination as the best option so that we can also consider them here? The present definition cites:

• Pingree, David (1973). "Astrology". In Philip P. Wiener. The Dictionary of the History of Ideas.
• Price, Simon. The Oxford Dictionary of Classical Myth and Religion. Oxford University Press, 2003

Does anyone have the original wording from Pingree and Price? Does it include divination? Robert Currey talk 11:05, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm confused - why is it so important to pin down a definition of divination here? The discussion topic heading says 'definition of astrology'. The subject of divination has its own WP page: ] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zachariel (talk • contribs) 03:44, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

You are right - looking for a definition of divination is either a tangent or an excuse for original research. All we need is a reliable source on astrology that classifies it as a form of divination. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:54, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

So now I am more confused about what this discussion aims to achieve. Why not follow the reliable source suggested, or find one that meets everyone’s approval, rather than search for an alternative that defines astrology in a controversial or confusing manner?

The point made is that divination is an element within astrology, it is not the definition of astrology or the sum of everything astrology is. I have a leg but that does not mean I am a leg.

Astrologers who, say, look for patterns in sun-spot activity or correlate planetary cycles with weather extremes or financial trends would not admit to taking a divinatory approach. Gauquelin’s observation of the angularity of Mars within certain personality types is of astrological interest, but it wouldn’t find inclusion in the Misplaced Pages article on Divination.Zac Δ talk 19:43, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

BTW, so you know where I'm coming from - I have an interest in astrology. That interest is mainly in the history and divinatory branches of astrology. The suggestion of astrology being divinatory does not offend my interest in the slightest. But it is incorrect.

With respect Ocaasi it is also misleading for readers of the main page, who will not have followed your rather complex and subjective argument in detail. Your defence of the statement "Astrology is a system of divination" makes sense according to what you think, but only based on your particular understanding of a certain sense of the word 'divinition' in a certain way. (22nd June) If the comment in the lede is unsatisfactory to several contributors here, it would be better to find another that evades that issue whilst adhering to WP policy of being referenced to a reputable, reliable source. (I realise this is exactly what Slrubenstein has been saying) Zac Δ talk 20:11, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

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