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Revision as of 12:32, 6 December 2011

	Battle of Romani has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones Date Process Result October 9, 2011 Good article nominee Listed

Military history: South Pacific / British / European / German / Middle East / Ottoman / World War I GA‑class

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Town of Romani?

Currently Romani is a disambig that doesn't even mention a town of such a name...? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 03:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Battle description

There is an unsourced description of the battle which I would like to edit to incorporate Powles view. Are there any disagreements to this project?--RoslynSKP (talk) 03:07, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Names

The British Army in the First World War did not use infantry in its formation names. Its 53rd (Welsh) Division not 53rd (Welsh) Infantry Division. Brigades had a unique name in most cases 126th (East Lancashire) Brigade , not 126th Infantry Brigade. Those without a unique name just used 1st Brigade etc. Persons names should be in full when first used Winston Spencer Churchill not W.S. Churchill for example. The ANZAC Mounted Division is an acronym Anzac is wrong, ANZAC should be used or its full name Australian and New Zealand Mounted Division. The British Empire is used throughout the article, and in the info box, so there is no need to list the parts of the empire involved, note the same is never applied to the Ottoman/German side of the inf box. Jim Sweeney (talk) 08:48, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Agree. ANZAC is more correct. Anotherclown (talk) 08:50, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

POV

I have a number of concerns about the neutrality of this article, which although relatively minor have been reverted when I have attempted to fix them myself, and as such remain an issue IMO. Specifically:

Infobox lists the event as being "Part of The Defence of the Suez Canal and the Defence of Egypt First World War". Clearly only the British called the campaign this as their is no way the Germans or the Turkish would have used such terminology. I have changed this to Sinai and Palestine campaign as this is the accepted name for the campaign on wikipedia, however this was reverted here by User:RoslynSKP).

The Battle of Romani formed part of the Defence of the Suez Canal and the Defence of Egypt campaigns. This is what these campaigns have been known as, in the English language, for the last 90 years or so. This is the English language Misplaced Pages after all. I do not read German or Turkish, and as the English language sources I used to edit this article to GA standard, do not mention a German or Turkish equivalent, I am unable to give an alternative title to this campaign, which was not part of the Sinai and Palestine campaign; it preceded the Sinai and Palestine campaign. --Rskp (talk) 01:34, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Rubbish. The Battle of Romani formed part of the British Defence of the Suez Canal and the Defence of Egypt campaigns. Did the Turks or the Germans call it this? I doubt it. Misplaced Pages uses Sinai and Palestine campaign, why cant you? Anotherclown (talk) 12:32, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Lead uses terms such as enemy: "From 20 July until the battle began, the Australian 1st and 2nd Light Horse Brigades took turns pushing forward and clashing with the advancing enemy column." Clear British/Australian POV which could easily be avoided by removing the term, as I have previously done (reverted here by User:RoslynSKP).

Given the context of the sentence 'enemy' seemed not to be a loaded term. Throughout the article the enemy force is more often than not identified as German and Ottoman. If it is a problem, why was it not picked up during the GA process? --Rskp (talk) 01:34, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Also rubbish. How can one side be referred to as the "enemy" in a neutral article? Clearly the Turks and Germans didn't call themselves the enemy. This is British/Australian POV. It is easily fixed by removing the word entirely; however, some how that was controversial enough for you to repeatedly revert it. I agree the term can be used in the right context, but that is not how it is used here. So what if the issue wasn't raised in the GA review? Its been raised now - deal with it. Anotherclown (talk) 12:32, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

As any change I make to this article seems to get reverted I invite User:RoslynSKP to rectify these issues. Anotherclown (talk) 08:48, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

I use 'Anzac' because 'ANZAC' really only refers to the Australian and New Zealand Army Corps which was in existence before and during the Gallipoli campaign. The 1st and 2nd and the 3rd Light Horse Brigades and the New Zealand Mounted Rifles Brigade (from memory) served before and on Gallipoli in ANZAC and afterwards these light horse brigades formed the Australian and New Zealand Mounted Division in April 1916. The light horsemen referred to the mounted division as the 'Anzac Mounted Division' although its official name is the 'Australian and New Zealand Mounted Division'. This division has been referred to as the 'Australian and New Zealand Mounted Division', as the 'A. and N. Z. Mounted Division', and as the 'Anzac Mounted Division' in the literature. I can't recall seeing the 'ANZAC Mounted Division' but note ANZAC is used in the Misplaced Pages article name which describes the division. Anzac Mounted Division links to this article and is not wrong or incorrect. --Rskp (talk) 01:34, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

OK. The article has now been amended by another user to deal with these concerns, so this would appear to have been resolved unless it is reverted yet again. Anotherclown (talk) 09:10, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Of course it got reverted yet again. Rskp - I've invited you to discuss this and you have not, you simply reverted again. That hardly seems like collaborative behaviour. Anotherclown (talk) 11:40, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

There are a number of minor stylistic changes made by Anotherclown. These include adding hyphens, cutting brackets and etc. There is nothing wrong with counterattack as one word and sand cart as two words is misleading. The term is sandcart. I cut all the red links because there were so many and they made the article look like it was having major problems. There is even a red link in the introduction to the 3rd Ottoman Infantry Division which is not notable. There is another red link in the prelude to the 3rd (Anatolian) Infantry Division. There is a functioning link to the Ottoman 4th Army which I have recently rediscovered and would add, given the opportunity. The red links to the 6th, 7th, 11th LHR and to all the infantry brigades, are only necessary if the editor is planning to write all these articles in the near future as they are even less notable than the 3rd Ottoman Inf Div. Having recently come across a 'clean up red links' template I would add it to this article if I could. Cutting references to 'infantry' units is against the interests of the article which has been written to GA standard with the general reader in mind. Can this article please revert so that the general reader will have a chance of reading this material?--Rskp (talk) 01:34, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

"There are a number of minor stylistic changes made by Anotherclown. These include adding hyphens, cutting brackets and etc. There is nothing wrong with counterattack as one word and sand cart as two words is misleading. The term is sandcart." Excuse me Roslyn? I didn't make any of these edits - get your facts straight. Anotherclown (talk) 12:32, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

See above section infantry is historically wrong they did not use the term. Red links are encouraged to assist in article creation. The 3rd Ottoman Infantry Division and the 3rd (Anatolian) Infantry Division would seem to be the same thing. Ther are way to many notes in brackets in the text. They should be changed to improve the flow of the text, most of them only repeat infomation provided earlier. If using an acronym it should be in capitals ANZAC, if not use the full term Australian and New Zealand Mounted Division. The campain is the Middle Eastern theatre of World War I or North African theatre (World War I) or the Sinia and Palestine campaign not Part of The Defence of the Suez Canal and the Defence of Egypt First World War which has obvious POV. Last as you stated its only at GA standard not the finished article and can be improved . Jim Sweeney (talk) 01:53, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Who is 'they' what are your references. The trouble is that you are not improving this article and refuse to acknowledge the sources used in this article. Please stop your destructive edits. --Rskp (talk) 05:13, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Here is a web link to the Long Long Trail a proven reliable source for Misplaced Pages see the divisions and brigades correct titles Jim Sweeney (talk) 05:36, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Please refrain from making small changes to the style of this article as you have not written it and in doing so you are moving away from the sources I used to do this work. Thanks for the reference. It looks to be a very good web site which requests users to cite it. Could you please go though and add this citation to each and every unit name you have edited using this source? You will then be making a substantial positive impact on all these articles. --Rskp (talk) 06:06, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

The small changes adding correct unit names etc do not effect the sources. WP:OWN again it does not matter that I or anyone else have not written this article, anyone can edit Misplaced Pages. There is no need to cite the unit names, unless they are in dispute, and would be WP:OVERCITE. Jim Sweeney (talk) 06:12, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Roslyn. Regardless of the style used in "your sources" we need to comply with Misplaced Pages's style rules, the WP:MOS and WP:MILMOS. Equally a lot of "your sources" are out of date and do not reflect modern usage or academic conventions. This is exactly why other editors are required to assist with these articles and these points have been raised with you on a number of occasions, usually with little success. I recall an A class review a while ago that I participated in that discussed many of these same points. I continue to be concerned with your lack of co-operation with other editors. If you don't want other people editing your work then it needs to be submitted to another forum. Anotherclown (talk) 12:32, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Redlinks

Hello all. There is currently a red link to the 4th Ottoman Army. IMO, this could be linked to Fourth Army (Ottoman Empire). For what it is worth, IMO, there is nothing wrong with red links, so long as they are to notable topics. Units such as the Australian light horse regiments are notable, IMO, because of the coverage they have received. For instance, there are full WWI histories of them available here: ; these, along with a book or two, would allow for a decent article to be written on them, thus making them notable. I would hazard that divisional sized organisations in the Ottoman Army would also be notable, although probably their coverage in English would not be as extensive. At the end of the day, though, it is not necessarily the size of a unit that determines notability, but in fact the level of sourcing. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:11, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Makes sense to me, but I'm not the one that seems to need to be convinced. Redlinks are accepted by community consensus, yet any attempt to add them here gets reverted. Anotherclown (talk) 12:09, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

A suggestion

Just to jump in - and please note that I'm saying this as an uninvolved admin - could I suggest that everyone involved in this series of disputes steps away from articles on this theater of World War I for a few days? (for instance, until this Friday). I'm seeing several very good editors at each other's throats over these disagreements, and it's not doing anyone any good (Jim and Rskp, you could have been blocked for the edit war which was going on here before the page was protected). I'd also suggest that rather than thrash out the (roughly) same set of issues on several articles that you start a centralised discussion at WT:MILHIST or through a request for comment. But a break from the disagreement would be a good first step. Nick-D (talk) 10:48, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't see the point of a discussion anymore - indeed there never was one anyway. This isn't a content dispute - the bulk of the edits have been about minor issues of style (i.e redlinks, hypthens, the presentation of unit names, etc). Hell even a bot was reverted twice for inserting date maintenance tags. What is the value in discussing every single full stop? This just seems like a way of one editor preventing others from working on these articles. Equally when I have raised valid concerns regarding POV they get ignored or reverted. Anotherclown (talk) 12:06, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

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