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Information needs to be updated to include the newest information

I still do not like how this fore part is worded. It gives too much credit to those who do not understand DID and therefore do not believe it occurs.

Here is an outline that might be of help. See books published in 2011 such as E. Howells book for more information.

From E. Howell's book: Once in a GREAT while a "bad therapist" can lead someone to create an temporary and extremely limited alter, but it is not like the real thing.

ANP - Apparently Normal Parts EP - Emotional Parts

Complex Dissociative Disorders

DDNOS-1 Dissociative Disorder-Not Otherwise Described - (One ANP and Two or more EP's)

DID - Dissociative Identity Disorder - (At least Two ANP's and Two or more EP's) 1. Time Loss. 2. There are at least 2 Apparently Normal Parts. 3. Epileptic-like seizures and somatic issues. (proposed additions in the DSV-V)

• Some parts might be fixated in traumatic memories (as in the Simple PTSD and C-PTSD) and are chronically aroused while others are hypo-aroused

Also of importance:

Secondary Structural Dissociation. (SSD) SSD - Includes DDNOS-1. This is characterized by dividedness of 2 or more defensive subsystems. For example, there may be different EP's who are devoted to flight, fight, freeze, total submission and so on.

Tertiary Structural Dissociation (TSD) This is DID. There ARE 2 or more ANP's who perform aspects of daily living, such as work in the workplace, child-rearing, and playing as well as 2 or more EP's.Tylas 05:17, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I've never heard of this, and this is not what I understand to be proposed for the DSM-5. The proposed third criteria for DID is "Causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning." reference here It was added in an effort to acknowledge multiple personality in non-western cultural contexts. If "E. Howell" is a real doctor or psychiatric researcher, there's no reason his ideas can't be included. However this is pretty long and the article is already pretty long, so you might want to put in just a reference to the book at the end. --Bluejay Young (talk) 22:25, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

You mean her ideas. Elizabeth F. Howell, a psychoanalyst at NYU. They aren't particularly new claims, just newly printed books, so it's kind of cute that the person who brought it up presented her work as some new understanding that ultimately demolishes all criticism and everyone who disagrees is just out of touch. She's written and coauthored some books and papers. The critics of DID are already well aware of them. There's no reason the article would need to be rewritten in any way. DreamGuy (talk) 20:18, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Correct, it has nothing to do with the proposed DSMV, and yes it is not new, it is however well excepted by many who study trauma and is another way to identify DID.

The Haunted Self is a book by the original researchers. The Haunted Self: Structural Dissociation and the Treatment of Chronic Traumatization (Norton Series on Interpersonal Neurobiology) Onno van der Hart (Author), Ellert R. S. Nijenhuis (Author), Kathy Steele (Author)

E. Howell discusses this subject in Chapter 3 of her 2011 book and that chapter can be found online in PDF format. Understanding and Treating Dissociative Identity Disorder: A Relational Approach (Relational Perspectives Book Series) Elizabeth F. Howell (Author) Tylas 05:17, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Strongly agree. So much so that I'm posting a separate section at the foot of this page about this and related matters. Thanks for your interest and concern, and I hope you've mounted up for a long ride!Tom Cloyd (talk) 02:28, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Controversy Section Removal

I strongly suggest that the entire section on Controversy be eliminated. It can go elsewhere on Misplaced Pages, but it does not belong on this page. DID is a dissociative disorder, it is in the DSMIV and proposed to be in the newer DSMV. The topic might be a controversial pop culture topic, but as far as a mental health disorder it is not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tylas (talk • contribs) 20:53, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree. The emphasis given this minor issue (it is NOT an issue in mental health professional circles) in this article, is disproportionate to it triviality. It suggest that the article was written by individuals lacking adequate familiarity with the serious literature on this topic, where the controversiality of the diagnosis is simply not taken up - because it is no longer controversial.Tom Cloyd (talk) 02:04, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

There are a significant number of sources published in reliable journals and by respected publishing houses indicating that there is a strong belief that at least some DID patients had their symptoms produced iatrogenically through therapy. A lot of those sources are already included in the page. Sources are not removed because editors disagree with them. A lot of professionals apparently think, and publish their thoughts, that DID may not be real - this should remain on the page. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:16, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Deletion of external links

I have had a couple of links that I added deleted as spam. http://www.dissociation.org.uk/ is a UK educational site for those affected by DID. The other http://www.firstpersonplural.org.uk/ is a UK charity for survivors of DID. I am not affiliated to either organisation. Neither are particularly controversial sites and both are helpful for anyone researching DID. I would like to put them back up, but will not if it can be explained to me why they are unsuitable for entry. petitvie (talk —Preceding undated comment added 05:33, 4 December 2011 (UTC).

External links are for encyclopedic-level sources of information, not advocacy groups or geographically-based organizations. If we were to include these we'd have to include every a ton of others, and there's no good reason for it. DreamGuy (talk) 22:32, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Mental health professional's first reactions to this article

Warm greetings to you all! I'm signing on as a new editor to this article. I'm not new to Misplaced Pages, having been here for a few years, during which I've had a variety of involvements, as my user page documents. Two things that might be notable about me, though: I'm a mental health professional who treats DID, and I'm a formalist when it comes to rhetoric in general and writing in particular. I have extensive formal training and experience in social science and psychology research. I value clear thinking, cogent writing, and good sourcing.

So...first reactions:

1. Copy editing and rhetoric - I see major problems here, and I'll deal with those first.

2. Sourcing - more current literature, including some of the recently published literature surveys, needs to be brought on board, and some of the older references dropped. There is a lot of archaic and simply misinformed literature in print and on the web re: DID. NONE of that should be referenced here, I would urge. We want the good stuff, and that comes from professionals. "DID" is a concept THEY invented, and they do the research and theory development on this topic.

3. Priorities - as a clinician and someone very concerned in community education re: major public health issues (and I consider dissociation and dissociative disorders to be such), I consider it our first obligation here to correctly and fairly represent the topics and assertions in the current professional literature on DID. In that area in particular, major work needs to be done on this article. All else (e.g., "controversy", should be dealt with later, if at all.

4. Article form - I think there are some improvements which could be made that would present the material in a more useful way. I'll make specific proposals, and ask for comments, in the future.

I do have other commitments, one of which is to the PTSD article, in which I have taken a major interest for several years. This means that I'll be proceeding here with deliberation and calmness, and that allows plenty of time for community discussion, which I invite, appreciate, and enjoy.

It may interest you to know that I have surveyed the major contributors to this article in the last 2.5 years. There are four. Two are self-identified multiples, one is a bit of a science nut like me (hello there WLU!), and the fourth, like the first three, also appears NOT to be a mental health professional. One thing that means is that there is a real chance that I can be helpful here, due to my training, experience, and perspective.

About editor/contributors who are multiples: I think it is particularly valuable to have involved here individuals who are living with DID. That they are doesn't make them experts, any more than my having a brain tumor (which I don't!) would make me a neural surgeon, but they do have a highly valuable perspective to offer, part of which is their encounter with the gross misinformation about DID that continues to make it into popular culture AND their experiences with various aspects of the health care delivery system in their locale, wherever that may be. We are fortunate to have some people with DID participating here. If there are other editors here who have not so identified themselves, consider doing so, if you are comfortable with this and see value in this action.

This topic is both complex and important. I'm showing up to make this article better for both clinical (multiples and clinicians) and non-clinical readers. We owe them no less, I think. And...I'm glad I'm not alone here! (Comments welcome!)

Tom Cloyd (talk) 03:00, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

If you are going to be removing sources, you need to provide more current sources indicating why - particularly, indicating that the opinions of the professional field have changed. Your opinion of "what's current" is inadequate. Misplaced Pages is not a crystal ball, we normally lag several months to several years behind what is discussed during conferences. Please do not remove information unless you can indicate why, and verify this with a reliable source. Generally controversies are explored rather than eliminated. Accordingly, if these old sources have been criticized, please provide citations and summaries of these criticisms indicating the professional literature has changed. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:19, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

You know, if you treat DID patients you already come in to the topic with a very strong bias that what you are doing is not some outdated belief system like phrenology or snake oil. You have a natural desire to let the world believe that what you are doing is valid and scientific. That's fine for your personal beliefs, but it's not something you can rewrite the article to say. We need to follow the policies here, and we cannot let the article become the mouthpiece of a person who is promoting a specific belief for the basis of his job. DreamGuy (talk) 23:49, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Reply to Dream Guy

The leaders in research in the area of Dissociative Identity Disorder are not just personal beliefs. The information that is being cited is from those who are writing and working in this field to day and who understand it. Have you read current science based information from experts such as E. Howell, James L. Spira, Suzette Boon, Deborah Bray Haddock, Onno van der Hart, Ellert R. S. Nijenhuis, Kathy Steele - past president for the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation. The ISSTD is also a great place to read about current research on DID.

Reply to Dream Guy

I was the one that removed and/or moved the items in question. I believe Tom Cloyd just put them back, for the most part, to what I had done. Granted I went too fast for the soldiers that guard this page. People come to Misplaced Pages, in this case, to see what DID actually is. They were hit, and are now again due to your undo's, with a bunch of China and Sybil stuff and controversy. When I go to a Misplaced Pages page on DID, I want to know what the leaders in the field say DID is, not a bunch of journalist, book writers or movie makers.~ty 04:33, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Indented line

Re: changes made to heading levels and structure

Many people do not understand that headings in an article give it an outline structure, and in proper English, one can never subdivide a section of an outline into just ONE sub-section. First, that is illogical (dividing something must at least split it). Second, inasmuch as this rule is taught in all English classes of which I know, in the English speaking world, AND evidenced in every modern printed book and encyclopedia I've ever seen (and with a couple of masters degrees, I've seen a few!), disrespect of this rule makes the article appear illiterate. (Read the article linked to in the first sentence for a longer discussion of proper outline form.) Therefore, I have, by various means, corrected in this article all such singular subdivisions (if the phrase even makes sense, which it doesn't). Tom Cloyd (talk) 03:37, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is bound by it's manual of style, which may differ from other professional standards. Please refer to the MOS when adjusting headings (see also WP:SECTION). WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:20, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Reply to Tom Cloyd

Thank you Sir. Your services are greatly appreciated. I have DID and am interested in cleaning up this article as well. I found many things in it offensive. I do not know all the ins and outs of Misplaced Pages as you seem to, but I hope I can offer some insight from where I stand. Tylas 05:12, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Regarding my reversions of 2012.01.13 and 2012.01.14 concerning DID and "controversy"

Reason for reversions

"There is a great deal of controversy surrounding the topic of DID." Bunk. This lede paragraph, one of several addressing "controversy" and DID which were recently removed by an apparently well-read editor, were recently reverted by another. I have reversed these reversions. This material simply does not belong here. Much of this article clearly is coming from writers who are insufficiently familiar with both the professional literature on DID and the present state of the diagnosis in the professional community. "Multiple personality" is a lurid topic in some regions of the popular press, and those seeking the lurid (e.g., some journalists who write books on DID) can fan the flames forever. This doesn't make the topic controversial, nor does it qualify such writings for inclusion in this article about a clinical psychology/psychiatry diagnosis that is gravely disabling and challenging to treat. Pop culture does not belong here.

In the professional literature there is little or on controversy regarding the legitimacy of the diagnosis. There is certainly discussion about which model of its etiology is most accurate (excluding the model which suggests that it is created by the suggestion or manipulation of a therapist - an idea which has NO standing in the professional community). There is also difference of opinion about which treatment approach is best, and...about a number of other things. This discussion is normal, healthy, and is NOT in any way indicative of "controvery". All diagnoses in the consensus diagnostic protocols of the DSM-IV and OCD-10 receive such discussion.

The sheer column inches devoted in this article to the purported "controversial" nature of DID, when I arrived here a few days ago, was appalling to me. There has been a great struggle in the profession to delineate the nature, bounds, dynamics, and legitimacy of this diagnosis, and the struggle has led to its full legitimacy in the professional mental health community. Yes, you can find professionals who still dispute the diagnosis, but that is true of virtually every diagnosis in the DSM-IV and the ICD-9-10. There will always be such outliers. The clear consensus, however, is what is expressed in those same authoritative documents, where there is no suggestion that the diagnosis is questionable or controversial in any way. That settles it.

Why do I say that? Because "DID" is a term and concept OWNED by the professional mental health community. AND because it is our agree-upon obligation here at Misplaced Pages to summarize the best literature on any topic which is available. That means that the noise of the popular press, if it is relevant to this article at all, should get attended to ONLY after the professional literature receives full, fair, and adequate treatment here. The article as it presently stands does not meet this standard.

Lay opinion and should never trump professional literature on any mental health topic, and especially on the topic of Dissociative Identity Disorder. If this were not so, we should expect to see insertion in the Misplaced Pages article on lithic stratigraphy (OK, I don't know if this article exists, but the example stands) several column inches about the theories coming from some Biblical literalists that it was the Devil who laid down all those rock layers, to lead men to doubt the Word of God which clearly says (and it does NOT) that the world was created in 5000+ years ago. Oh...and those fossils which appear to show evolutionary progression - we must make very notable mention in various paleontology articles that they too are the work of the Devil!

We do not allow such nonsense because we have agreed that Misplaced Pages articles should present a synopsis of the best thought we have on any subject. That current best thought re: DID is summarized in the professional literature coming from the clinical psychology and psychiatry communities. I cannot recall ever seeing mention of "the DID controversy" in this literature - not in 3 years of graduate school and 25 years of clinical practice.

It is a matter of priorities, pure and simple. Material about "DID controversy" might belong in the article I understand exists on "DID in popular culture", because that's where the controversy lives on - popular culture. In the professional mental health conmunity, the consensus is clear, and expressed in the DSM-IV and OCD-10.

Justification of my position

Let's look at some major references on the topic:

• Merck (2010) - No mention of controversy at all. But Merck is always synoptic, and maybe there just wasn't room. Let's look further.
• Steinberg, M. (2001). The stranger in the mirror: dissociation - the hidden epidemic (316 pp.). This major work on dissociation and the disorders in which it is prominent, by the psychiatrist who developed the SCID-D diagnostic inventory, addresses the "controversy" in her ch. 3, under "Myth #6 - DID is not a real illness" (pp. 26-27). Her summary is that multiple scientific investigations have validated the reality of the disease and its symptoms, and that assertions to the contrary are based solely on anecdotal evidence and hearsay. She backs up her assertions with careful sourcing. But this was written over 10 years ago, and may need updating. Let's investigate further, after a brief digression...

One of the topics taken up in graduate program in clinical psychology/psychiatry is symptom faking (factitious disorders) and iatrogenic causality. Basically, we are advised always to be initially skeptical of a clients' symptom presentation, until we can reasonably rule out causes OTHER than legitimate etiology. Some diagnoses are more vulnerable to this problem than others, and several have unique problems associated with them. Then, too, there is the problem of differential diagnosis - e.g., depression due to a medication side-effect is not legitimately termed "clinical depression". The DSM formally addresses this problem in diagnosis after diagnosis, including the dissociative disorders.

If there is indeed a real problem with faked or iatrogenic symptoms relative to DID, serious professional literature on DID should validate this problem and address it. We already know that Steinberg (2001) does not. Let's next consider...

• Haddock, D.B. (2001). The dissociative identity disorder sourcebook. (311 pp.) Written for professionals and informed laypersons, this book was very highly praised when it was published, and is still an essential reference. Haddock writes (p. 129) of clients' possible rejection of a DID diagnosis (not all are ready to accept a diagnosis this grave), but not of any professional controversy about the concept. Her discussion of differential diagnosis (pp. 76-77) makes no mention of there being a problem with faked or iatrogenic symptoms.
• Spira, J. L., Yalom, I.D., eds. (1996). Treating dissociative identity disorder (388 pp). Note that this was published well before both Steinberg and Haddock, which simply means that it was written closer to the time when there WAS a debate in professional clinical psychology/psychiatry as to the legitimacy of the DID diagnosis. It is also a very notable publication because of the outstanding roster of contributors the editor rounded up, most of whom are still very prominent in the field today. However, we see here exactly what is seen in Haddock: possible client rejection of the diagnosis is addressed; professional controversy and iatrogenic or faked symptoms is not.

WHERE is the alleged "controversy"? Maybe it took a while for the profession to catch up with something the popular press already knew. Let's look at some more recent major publications...

• van der Hart, O., et al. (2006). The haunted self: Structural dissociation and the treatment of chronic traumatization (418 pp.). This extraordinary synoptic treatment of DID and other trauma-related disorders (PTSD, Borderline Personality Disorder, etc. is a major milestone in the history of thought about such disorders. It has received exceptional reviews by a number of luminaries in the field. In the book's detailed index, there are no main entries addressing conceptual controversy relative to DID, nor any for iatrogenic symptoms, symptom faking, or factitious symptoms. The entries in the index under "assessment" take up almost an entire column on a two-column page, and there is no mention under this subheading of any of these topics, either.
• Howell, E. F. (2011). Understanding and treating dissociative identity disorder (308 pp). This work, both articulate and scholarly, is one of my personal favorites. The author has previously authored a well-received book on the topic of dissociation, and here addresses treatment of dissociative disorders in a manner that is both accessible to educated laypersons and exceptionally valuable to professionals. The first rule of treatment is "get the diagnosis right". She devotes 18 pages to assessment, producing the most useful statement on the subject I've yet seen. Interestingly, she does address factitious disorders (pp. 159-160), and as is her treatment of many things in this book, her remarks are detailed, thorough, and very useful. But she does not suggest that this issue is a significant problem, or that it is due to iatrogenic causes.

There is one other reference I'd like to review - Dell, P.F. & O'Neil, J.A., eds. (2009). Dissociation and the Dissociative Disorders: DSM-V and beyond (898 pp). This award winning book is a review of the literature which aims to supplant all others. My copy is due to arrive any day. I'll add to this review what I find when it arrives, but I honestly don't expect to see a deviation from the pattern already established: Professionals don't take up the alleged controversy surrounding DID because there is none.

So, why should this article? It shouldn't. Readers should not be misled, nor be forced to wade through inches of summary of the irrelevant ruminations of idle journalists, people out to disparage clinical psychology/psychiatry in general, and others who simply haven't anything useful to say. Let's stick the good science we do have, and theories based on that science, and on actual clinical experience. We can do no better, and our readers deserve no less.

We do not shrink from controversy in professional mental health - witness the ongoing flap about (alleged) overuse of anti-psychotic and psycho-stimulant medications. That there is none to be seen regarding DID should be noted and respected. The controversy is over, and has been for years.

If someone can come up with a professional quality reference that treats this alleged controversy with any real seriousness, let's consider referencing it in the article. But, we still have to content with the fact that the vast majority of serious thinkers in this field simply see no need to address the topic. Why should we? I can think of no good reason to do so, other than in the history section, and there we should not let the material use up valuable article real estate which would better be used addressing topics like assessment, treatment, and outcome, all of which are presently given seriously inadequate coverage in this article. I, for one, intend to redress this.

I have taken some very real time to write this because I want to dispense with this issue once and for all. We have important things to do with this article. Rehashing old issues is surely not one of them.

Tom Cloyd (talk) 07:21, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Only two of the books linked appear to be published by an academic publisher (Routledge). My preference is generally to draw from the published literature (i.e. journal articles), though of course books are also permissible. The fact that there are so many sources that actively criticize DID indicates that yes, at least historically there was a controversy. It may be ongoing, which also requires demonstration via sources. That'll take time to dig up. It's possible the field has polarized, with neither group citing or discussing the other. That still means there are at least two sides and a controversy. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:31, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I cannot agree more with this statement! KUDOS!

Professionals don't take up the alleged controversy surrounding DID because there is none. Tylas 05:11, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

"References" - plural? Uh...no

This is a mistake an undergraduate might make. It would be distressing for a grad. student to make it. To wit: When you have a document with a single note or reference, the list itemizing such is singular, for it contains only ONE element. When there is more then one, the plural form is called for. WP:LAYOUT does NOT take a position on this, but discusses ONLY the later case (read it - carefully, please). Since it is not covered, the issue reverts to "common law", which in this case is "common practice". My knowledge of such practice derives from the fact of my seven years of grad. school, and my experience teaching, and grading research reports written in, undergrad. experimental psychology.

Also, it's just common sense. If you have one, don't refer to it in plural!

Tom Cloyd (talk) 08:06, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

It'd be simpler to call the "Footnotes" section "References" (for that is what they are and any scientific/medical journal will call them this) and include the single item listed as "reference" in them. WP:LAYOUT specifically excludes "reference" (it clearly takes a position on this: "With the exception of "Bibliography", the heading should be plural even if it lists only a single item"), because articles are supposed to have multiple sources. "Reference" is discouraged, because it will become inappropriate as soon as some other editor adds another one. And: yes, I have seen that "Sadock 2002" (which properly should be "Sadock and Sadock 2002", think) occurs twice in the "Footnotes", but with two almost adjacent pages (681 and 683). Either merge the two ("681-683") or, if page 682 really is completely inappropriate to include, just make two separate references. Makes things simpler and less dissociated... Apart from this (in the end rather minor) quibble: kudos for vastly improving this article! --Guillaume2303 (talk) 09:03, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Ha! I yield on the "References" matter - how could I have missed that in WP:LAYOUT? But I did. I still think my line of thought makes more sense, and I KNOW it to be the practice at least some of the time, but I don't know what the style sheet of a random sample of peer-reviewed journals would say. Interesting question, but we do have bigger fish to fight than this (I just love mixing metaphors!). Glad you like the rest of what I've done. It's early in the day, and others have yet to be heard from.

Haven't considered the format of the article's end-material, as I've been too busy being annoyed by the main article content, although surely not by all of it. Some is quite acceptable, or even better, I'd say.

I don't yet have access to my copy of Sadock (which I think is actually "Sadock, Sadock, and Kaplan") - I just moved. So, I can't respond to your comment there. I didn't add the original reference. Thanks for your comments. Tom Cloyd (talk) 11:58, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Controversy and History sections - in need of a major re-write

"Controversy"

First problem: It's way too long. The topic, if addressed at all, is properly seen only as historic, and minor mention may be made of it in the history section. It's simply unbalanced to give it this much space. It suggest lack of familiarity with the professional literature.

Second problem: That it appears at all! The existence of a FEW professional papers arguing that the diagnosis is illegitimate, etc., etc., is far outweighed by the clear consensus in the profession that the diagnosis is legitimate, period. DID is controversial ONLY in non-professional circles, and certainly not always there, either. This article should not read like a tabloid presentation of this topic.

That this is taken up here at all cannot be justified by NPOV (see quoted lede sentence below), which does NOT require that we bring into the article every hair-brained idea in print. If so, then I want to see a major section on my favorite bogus DID etiological model: space aliens have implanted their children in various people's brains, and the kids won't shut up. I read it on the Internet, so it must be true!

"Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources."

Significant is the key term here. I have demonstrated in my section above re: "Controversy" that this topic is not currently significant, and hasn't been for a long time.Tom Cloyd (talk) 08:24, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Wow. Just wow. Your opinion on this topic is so strong you falsely believe that an opinion you disagree with must be "hare-brained" and "insignificant". Claiming it's not currently significant is just nonsense, as there are more and more books, articles and other reports coming out supporting that idea that DID/MPD is either nonexistent or hugely misdiagnosed coming out all the time. You simply are either not familiar with these works (and ignored the references made to them in this article) or dislike them so much you want to ignore them. That's your own personal POV. That cannot be made to take over the article. DreamGuy (talk) 17:52, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Reply to Dream Guy

The first thing I ever learned in Graduate School is to disregard popular media. I think you are off base Sir. How is a story in the popular media relevant to DID. Is a war story relevant to PTSD? I do understand when people think of MPD they think of Sybil, or Tara, or Fight Club or any of the other media based stories, but again, this has nothing to do with a serious page on DID. I have DID. It is not nonexistent. Bringing stories such as Sybil into this has nothing to do with if it is misdiagnosed or not. ~ty 04:58, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

What popular media are you even talking about? The critics of MPD/DID have been published in respectable journals, and have produced mainstream books. It is laughable for someone to claim that these are only popular media and are not significant. Someone would either have to be colossally ignorant or outright lying. Considering that Tom Cloyd claims to be a professional, I would hate to think he is that ignorant, but of course I don't want to believe he is a liar either. But simply claiming it is only popular media and insignificant because you say so doesn't make it so. As far as Sybil goes, this was a hugely famous case. It was not fiction, it was a real therapist making professional conclusions. The publication and popularization of those conclusions can be directly linked to a massive increase of diagnoses for multiple personalities. It is one of two cases that all therapists who know anything about MPD/DID refer back to, and it is frequently cited in professional books on the case. We aren't talking about some TV show here. Of course this topic belongs on this article, and it is frankly mind-boggling that anyone would seriously try to argue otherwise. Oh... well, of course the therapist in the Sybil case has since been proven to have fabricated much or all of the claims, which makes all the people who promoted it as the best example of this alleged mental illness looks silly, so now of course they want to come up with any lame excuses they can to pretend it never existed. That's intellectually dishonest. Now, "Ty," you appear to be here to try to vindicate your own personal belief that you have more than one personality. That's not how Misplaced Pages works, but I can see how you would not know that. I can also see maybe how you never heard about Sybil and don't understand it's importance in the history of this topic. But someone we are supposed to believe is a professional in the field shouldn't be ignorant of the case and its importance. Misplaced Pages cannot ignore this topic and censor it from the article just because some people with strong biases want it to be removed. DreamGuy (talk) 20:37, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Update: about my edits in the "Controversy" section

I HAVE decided to dive into this section and try to fix a number of problems. I've tried to document my changes carefully.Tom Cloyd (talk) 08:24, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Is it "controversy" or is it "professional ignorance"?

This "controversy" topic is a great example of the reason why we need professional involvement in this article. As a mental health professional, I can offer a couple of relevant facts I'm aware of which well may not be common knowledge:

1. Clinicians are casual, to put it mildly, about keeping up on research literature. Many are 15 or more years behind (depending upon when they left graduate school). As a class, they are very busy with practice management (their business), clinical activities (their clients), and families. Many never cared much about research to begin with, which is why they went into clinical practice rather than academia. Even academics have trouble keeping up with the research journals; clinicians usually just give up, unless, like me, they're a bit fanatical (and unmarried, which really helps). THUS, it is likely that as a group clinicians, most of whom do NOT treat trauma or dissociative disorders, are NOT up to date about the scientific status of these topical areas. A couple of studies cited in the first paragraph of this Controversy section reflect this, although the studies do have some serious methodological issues (small samples, in the face of consider parametric variance, coupled with significant subject non-response).

This doesn't mean there is controversy about DID. It means there is ignorance. The two are hardly the same, and to call one the other is to completely mis-characterize the problem. Why am I so confident? Read on...

2. Very little mention is made, even in professional clinical circles, of the science behind the diagnostic categories published in the DSM-IV. Behind this well known tome there is a published set of research reports (multiple volumes, I'm told) documenting the research done SPECIFICALLY to validate these categories. The diagnostic categories do not make it into print until adequate validity is achieved in a clinical setting. When there are problems, the categories are re-conceived, and the research is done again. THIS IS THE REASON WHY THE DSM-V HAS BEEN DELAYED FOR YEARS - they are working to tighten up some of the diagnostic categories.

Conclusion: If it appears in the DSM, it has demonstrated diagnostic validity.

This doesn't mean that clinicians, much less the general public, knows or appreciates this. Nevertheless, it's fact. This demonstrated validity is a major, major development in the history of clinical practice, and it all began with the DSM-III. Again, not common knowledge, but a fact nevertheless.

So, again, don't mistake ignorance for controversy. I can find people who still think the earth is flat. Does that mean that we have controversy on our hands? I'll let you decide...Tom Cloyd (talk) 08:24, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Yet more personal opinions being presented as fact. As far as point one goes, lots of people are behind on current research, many decades behind, yet you seem to want to believe that only those people who do not support DID/MPD are behind and those who do support it must be up to date. Many people would argue just the opposite. As far as point 2, lots of things in the DSM have been controversial. Homosexuality was in there as a disorder for a while, for example. This article is not supposed to be the mouthpiece of the DSM. Similarly, the DSM is very very slow to be changed to meet consensus of the outside world of professionals, and those professionals themselves are slow in changing their minds. By the time the DSM is finally released it reflects already very old ideas. DreamGuy (talk) 17:57, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Reply to All Editors

I do not want to be as brash as Tom Cloyd in this point, but he is right. I am sorry, but please give those of us that would like to work on this a chance and with an open mind read it. You might end up agreeing with us in the end. ~ty 04:54, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Deletion of paragraph beginning "It is suggested that on rare occasion symptoms that mimick (sic) DID can be created iatrogenically..."

This paragraph is simply incoherent, and concludes with citation (including quotes) of a study that has NO bearing whatsoever. If there is an argument actually asserted here, it escapes me. I refuse to attempt to turn a sow's ear into a silk purse. "Out, damned spot..." And so it came to be. Good riddance.Tom Cloyd (talk) 08:24, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

"History"

This contains much interesting material, but some of it is off-topic, and the narrative flow is jumbled in spots, such that the article would benefit from a significant rewrite. I do appreciate the meticulous sourcing in evidence here, though. Someone put some real work into this section. I respect that.

There are some interesting sources used, but I fear that some are more cherry-picked than representative of the literature. Some also look suspiciously likely to have been mis-characterized. I have elected to leave this mostly alone for now, until I can acquire the sources (some of which are due to arrive in my office very soon). I can then do the rewrite with the proper materials in hand.Tom Cloyd (talk) 08:24, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Regarding my removal of "Sybil" material from "History" section

This is not relevant to the history of this diagnosis. No detailed history of the concept of dissociation, or of the dissociative disorders, that I have yet been exposed to takes up this materials. We should follow this model and omit mention of it here.

The implication that the book about Sybil had influence upon the mental health profession is unlikely, and in any case this assertion is the opinion of the writer - no citation for it is given. It is more reasonable to assume that the case arose, was treated, and was written about because of the growing professional interest in the subject, which began in the 19th century with Janet, than to assert that some trade press book had a magical influence upon academic, research, and clinical psychotherapists, psychologists, and psychiatrists.

In any case, this is a popular culture topic, and irrelevant to the development of thinking and practice relative to the diagnosis of DID. It can be treated in an article on DID and pop. culture, or DID and literature, or whatever.

Tom Cloyd (talk) 08:24, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

It's very relevant to the history of the diagnosis, as described in several books of the topic. Only someone trying to whitewash the history of it could possibly make such a statement. Plenty of citations were given for its inclusion here. DreamGuy (talk) 17:45, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Reply to Dream Guy

I am sorry Mr. Dream guy. Can you tell us why you have such strong feelings about keeping things like the Sybil story here. I don't understand at all. I must agree with Tom here. I know the story of Shirly Mason, but she is just one of many who had DID. There was a brilliant book written by Flora Rheta Schreiber about "Sybil" as well as two movies, but this has nothing to do with a serious page on DID anymore than any other story of "multiples." Schreiber might have brought the disorder to the public but that is all. As a compromise, I do think Sybil should have a page all about her and the controversy can go there, it is after all a controversy of popular media, not the science world. Then there could be a link to that from this page for those interested in pop culture rather than science and what DID really is. ~ty 04:14, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

DreamGuy and Tom Cloyd

I am not a wikipedia editor. I am someone with DID who is just about as knowledgeable as a layman can be about the topic (if I do say so myself). My POV is not neutral but be that as it may. I have never read the book Sybil, nor seen the movie (add a point in the column of it being not important to the diagnosis presently), but I know much information about the case. It is mentioned tirelessly whenever DID comes up. I think it needs to have some space in the article as it is a valid part of the modern history of the diagnosis. However, the controversy re: Debbie Nathan's book and possible fraud allegations on the original Sybil has no place here, discrediting Sybil does not discredit DID or any part of the history and the way it is written now it is being used as a proxy to bring in controversy to the article that certainly is not warranted or weighted enough to be included. If this wasn't a new book it would not be notable at all and it has not proven it has any importance or significance in any field at all let alone psychology. This is doing a huge disservice to this article. Let that be on the book's own personal page where people can read all about it. Please consider this. I am also thinking of doing some slight editing myself but I have no experience so bear with me if I do. Forgottenfaces (talk) 08:31, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Reply to Forgotten Faces

I would love to see your edits. I would also like to see Tom Cloyd's and my own put back that were ALL reverted back to a very incomplete historical version by Mr. Dream Guy. I give no credit to Nathan's book at all and I too have never read the book Sybil, but I have read other information about it recently. I tend to enjoy reading science based books. I think however that the subject of Sybil will always bring controversy and as stated before that one case does not have anything to do with what dissociative identity disorder is. Its' one story of so many that could be told. I again suggest that the topic of Sybil has its own page and this page can link to it for those who have interest, but it does not have a place in a serious page on Dissociative Identity Disorder. Tylas 17:00, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Reply to Tom Cloyd II

Impressive Sir! Thank you for bringing this article to a state that Misplaced Pages can be proud of. I enjoy your writing style, your knowledge on the subject of Dissociative Identity Disorder and your knowledge of Misplaced Pages itself. I have been looking at your work on Misplaced Pages and I am impressed. Thank you for taking DID seriously. It's difficult when so many see this as interesting so they want to fuel the media and mis information. Thank you for bringing science to this page. ~ty 04:12, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't ever edit anything on wikipedia i find it all too intimidating but i wanted second Tylas's thank you. I am very impressed. Thank you very much. -Bug — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.178.225 (talk) 17:24, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Reply to Bug

I totally understand Bug. It's like trying to fend off bullies in the playground. The page on Misplaced Pages should be a serious page and as free as possible from the conflict that is only based in a lack of knowledge. I have read all the books that Tom Cloyd has referenced and totally agree with those references and authors who are some of the experts in the field of dissociative disorders. ~ty 04:12, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Reverted back to consensus version

While Misplaced Pages appreciates new input from editors, editors new to a topic should refrain from making massive and controversial changes to an article that has been written and rewritten following a long standing discussion of several points through a consensus building process. This is especially important as above comments make it clear that these changes were made to push a specific POV and to minimize another well documented POV. Calling the controversy based upon ignorance may be the opinion of the editor who made the changes, but Misplaced Pages does not take sides.

In the upcoming days I will try to go through each edit one by one to restore any individual changes that might be good, but the changes as a whole simply will not stand. Another editor besides myself already removed them, and I would caution the editor who made them to try to find consensus for any changes before making them again. Misplaced Pages is not a battleground. DreamGuy (talk) 17:44, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Mr. Dream Guy

Just because I don't have tons of edits on Misplaced Pages, that does not mean that I don't have a right to work on a page that interests me, but this page I am willing to fight for. I am tired of mis-information out there on DID. On your personal WP page you state the following: "Usually what I end up doing is undoing really bad edits by other people: spam, hoaxes, trying to put their own opinion into an article as if anyone else cares, and so forth." In this page you are trying to do the opposite. You are trying to keep hoaxes and POV rather than allowing the page be one of science and real psychology. Just because you have positioned yourself as guard of this page does not make you an expert on DID and the one who should decide what is on the page. This is not meant to be rude, but dang it, you keep deleting everything!~ty 04:52, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Consensus Version

Oh my!

I would not call what was here a "consensus version", but then I am not well versed on Misplaced Pages. To me the page seemed half thrown together, lacking in real and up to date data and sporting popular media instead of science and psychology. I don't want to be rude by any means, but let go of the ego a bit guys and let us do some work on this page. I really am embarrassed when someone goes to Misplaced Pages to read what Dissociative Identity Disorder is. It needs some real hard work. Please help us make a page we can all be proud of and all those who have DID can be proud of. :)

~ty 04:11, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Re: editor Tomcloyd's possible "conflict of interest" here

It has been suggested on my user account talk page that my edits to the DID article may violate Misplaced Pages's COI guidelines. Anyone suspicious of this should now make that argument, here. Vague allegations annoy me. Stand up where I can see you.Tom Cloyd (talk) 21:53, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

<deleted by original editor>

PS And the fact that you tried to explain your edits at length here on the talk page make things even worse, why couldn't you just be BOLD. --Guillaume2303 (talk) 22:10, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Guillaume2303, I have restored your comments, which you deleted in an apparent fit of despair. Despair not. Misplaced Pages editing always has room for satire, I will assert, and yours, here, absolutely nailed it!

This spurious "You're in the field, therefore you're advancing a personal agenda, and have no place here, dammit!" argument has been thrown at me before. I'm more than ready to deal with it. What DreamGuy SHOULD have done is what I did, care enough to take the time to really make an argument, which he didn't, so he's still lost in his dreams, apparently. He might well consider that there will be no more dreamin' around here.

You're damned right I have some biases, and they are on full display at my user page, by design. I'm ruthlessly transparent, which by the way is a cherished value in my profession. We make our living by our reputation for honesty, part of which means we try to keep up on the literature so we can actually defend the assertions we make. I actually do this, which may make me a bit unusual.

Vacuous, ill-considered assertions hurt, and in some cases, kill people. They have no place in articles relevant to professional mental health, such as this one. This is non-negotiable. Part of my transparency, it may be noted, is that I use my real name here, and provide links on my user page to other places on the Internet where I have expressed myself at length regarding professional matters. The idea that all this should in some way disqualify me is laughable!

As for my biases, they are the biases of scholars and thoughtful people the world over, and yes, even of good Misplaced Pages editors. I value and will promote:

• the highest levels of scholarship attainable;
• the best argumentation achievable;
• orderly consensual development of knowledge (science as social process).

Anyone having a problem with these biases, I will be bold to suggest, needs to get their attitude adjusted!

Stay with us. Do not despair. Fight the good fight. Why? Because there are those who cannot who will greatly benefit from our good work here. Also, because this sort of activity requires practice if real skill is to be attained. One of the great things about Misplaced Pages is that it provide a laboratory for such skill development.

I look forward (he says hopefully) to your continued participation here.

Tom Cloyd (talk) 23:01, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Tom, I must say I was a bit worried when I saw you had done such a big edit especially with the possible NPOV problems with this article. I have not reviewed all of your sources for edits but they all it seems fine to me so far, at least the majority of your edits should be kept imo. There needs to be some discussion on this on why this is NPOV if it is indeed that, not just edit reversals. Thanks Forgottenfaces (talk) 01:24, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Reply to User:Guillaume2303

Wow! I can't believe you said those things. Someone needs to stand up for those of us that have DID and write the real facts instead of popular media mumbo jumbo. Misplaced Pages is a scary place for many of us. I think without Tom here you would run off the rest of us. That is very sad. Please reconsider your position. Those of us with DID would just like a page that we are proud of. A page that people can go to and get the real facts about Dissociative Identity Disorder. ~ty 04:09, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Ty - thanks for the support for my effort. I have been laying low today to allow people who wanted to to react to my long series of edits last night. Misplaced Pages is a community. We work together, even when we fight. I absolutely respect that, because it is an accurate reflection of how our larger society works. I will respond to the reactions being posted here soon enough. There's no hurry. Things are proceeding exactly as they should.

I do believe you misread Guillaume2303. While monitoring my watch list page today, I saw him make the post above, then remove it with the following "edit summary" - forget about it, won't change anything anyway. I was instantly sad to see his discouraged point of view. I also enjoyed his comments, which, and this is what I want you to understand, I recognized as a satire of a particular point of view which appears on Misplaced Pages too often, and always with destructive effect. I appreciated the injection of some humor (which we all need from time to time), and want to urge him that there is really no reason for discouragement - not here at least. I'm a Misplaced Pages veteran, and I'm not worried about the outcome here. Furthermore, I want everyone, and I mean everyone, to put forth their best arguments here, so that the best thought we can produce will carry the day. People who retreat in discouragement take their views with them, and it's better that they remain here for us all to consider. So, you see, you and Guillaume2303 are actually pulling for the same thing!

No need to apologize to Guillaume, by the way. I'm sure he understands. And your misread is also completely reasonable. Sorry I didn't post a flag of some sort making it clear that this is satire.

Finally, you make a VERY important point when you say Misplaced Pages is a scary place for many of us. This is especially so when the DID article appears to be hostile to the concept that DID is a fully legitimate diagnosis, and suggests that there is continuing (much less growing!) controversy about the diagnosis. It pains me to imagine someone with DID reading the article and thinking "So they think I'm faking this disaster?". That just should not happen, and that's one of the major reasons I'm working to upgrade the article. I will address this particular issue in a separate section I'm going to add soon to the Talk page.Tom Cloyd (talk) 05:28, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I am someone with DID and I do read this page as it is now and wonder how many people think i am a fake. I look forward to the page getting back to how you had it Tom and maybe even improving it more than that. Especially making the section about controversy smaller or getting rid of it completely. -bug

Reply to Gullaume2303 and Dream Guy!

YAY! I like that whole paragraph. Trust me! This is a fight I will not quit on. It's so important! Thank you for explaining all that! :)Tylas 05:22, 15 January 2012 (UTC) (I remembered the 4~! I am getting to be more "veteran all the time!)

Nice Guy

I think that was Tom Cloyd being so nice rather than Dream Guy. I will get this all down. Sorry Dream Guy, it seems it was Tom Cloyd who was the nice guy and not you. I should have known it was too good to be true, but my fingers are still crossed you will let us fix this page. Tylas 17:09, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Reply to Forgotten Faces

It's nice to see someone of reason speaking. I have read all the books that Tom Cloyd has listed. They are fascinating and some of my favorites - mostly because they are quite current and written by some of the leaders in the field of DID. I think you will also find them enjoyable when you are able to read them. ~ty 04:09, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Ignoring all the useless chatter from the new "editors" above, it is pretty damn obvious that someone who says he professionally treats people with DID and comes to the talk page saying that there is no controversy has both a strong bias on the topic as well as an interest in protecting his source of income. The controversy section here basically shows that many experts on the topic think that what you are doing to earn money is basically hurting your patients instead of assisting them. It's not a stretch at all to see why that is a conflict of interest. Your comments have shown very clearly that you are way off the charts biased, as you want Misplaced Pages to say whatever *you* happen to believe and nothing else. That's completely against how things are done here. People editing article with a demonstrated bias and doing so to support their own professional standing get blocked. DreamGuy (talk) 20:20, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

• DreamGuy, are you really saying that Tom Cloyd is hurting his patients to make money? --Guillaume2303 (talk) 21:23, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

DreamGuy are you saying none of Tom's edits are appropriate? Why not hash out what exactly the discrepancies are, isn't that what this page is for? I may be new but I believe what I addressed re:Debbie Nathan is valid. Please tell me why it is not. I may not know exactly how to edit and not have enough time this weekend to learn sufficiently, but I can still input ideas. Debbie Nathan's book maybe deserves a sentence about it's existence related to Sybil. let's see here:

"The highly influential book Sybil (which was purported to be true, but has since been identified as likely heavily fictionalized) was published in 1974, which popularized the diagnosis through a detailed discussion of the problems and treatment of the pseudonymous Sybil. An October, 2011 report on NPR included discussions with Debbie Nathan, author of the book "Sybil Exposed: The Extraordinary Story Behind the Famous Multiple Personality Case", and other psychology professionals, about the allegations that the "Sybil" story was, if not a fraud, then a case that involved questionable or duplicitous behavior by the patient, as well as by her doctor, who was interested in the theory and who wanted to believe this was an actual case and who may have been intent on making sure it would be seen as such, and also by the original "Sybil" book's author, who had a large amount of money involved in the book contract"

First of all, for someone who wants to put Sybil in the history section you are devoting way more space to talking about it being a hoax then on it's actually place in history when it happened. In fact I don't believe Debbie Nathan's book should be here at all but if it must you are giving it a lot of influence. This is a blip on the radar that will be gone in six months. It is not a scientific book and in fact Ms. Nathan attributes all kinds of thoughts and feelings to people she never met who are long dead. Again I have no opinion on the Sybil case, it may be false it may be true, but this article makes it overwhelmingly seem false. Debbie Nathan's book is sensational journalism. Why is it on this page?

This is not idle chatter and I would appreciate a good faith response. Thank you Forgottenfaces (talk) 21:27, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Consider this diff. Among the changes I object to:

• Removal of the "controversy" paragraph from the lead, despite a total of seven references to verify the text
• Replacement of "Unexplainable headaches and other body pains" with "Somatic Symptoms". Keeping in mind the audience of wikipedia is a general one, and that the merck reference specifies "severe headaches or other pains", the former is most appropriate in my mind.
• Change of "Physiological findings" to "Physiological research on DID", which duplicates the page name, which MOS:HEAD urges against
• Movement of the possible iatrogenesis of DID out of the "Causes" section - considering a considerable number of sources support people thinking DID is at least in part iatrogenic in at least some groups, this is inappropriate.
• The inclusion of a subheading of "prevalence" in the second level heading of "epidemiology" is not appropriate, since there are no other subheadings.
• The removal of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde as an image is not appropriate in my opinion; we can't get many images in a page like that, and Jekyll & Hyde is considered a classic example of DID in popular culture. Popular culture is how findings like this reach a broader audience and a place in the general cultural consciousness. This means we should mention notable works of literature, particularly when sources have explicitly made these links for us.
• Ditto for Sybil. This could be shortened, but not removed - Sybil was enormously important in introducing DID to the world, and it's debunking is also important. The discussion of how Sybil led into the introduction of DID/MPD into the DSM followed by increased media coverage is also an important part of this, and again appeared to be removed not because of sources or other concerns. It looks like a single editor decided they didn't like it and removed it on the basis of personal taste or disagreement.

...and that's why I did a full revert to the previous version - there are too many reliable sources being removed, not because other sources have criticized them but instead because one editor doesn't like them. Professionals can disagree, both publicly and privately. This is only an issue when one professional uses their opinion to edit the page and ignore the opinions of others. I would venture this is the problem in the current page. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 22:46, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

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