Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 08:42, 29 February 2012

Dispute about Jesus' execution method

Dispute about Jesus' execution method (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Article is a content fork to promote a view of Jehovah's Witnesses. The issue is more of a difference in doctrine rather than an active 'dispute'. The relevant content could be greatly reduced and merged to Crucifixion of Jesus and Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs#Cross, according to context. Jeffro77 (talk) 02:19, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration.
• Delete. I am not convinced its current content does promote the Jehovah's Witness doctrine, but a recent flurry of edits to the opening sentence prove that few editors can agree on the actual point of the article and therefore what form it should take. I agree that there is no "dispute" about the issue; this is merely the case of a single religion dissenting from (or denying) the orthodox view and scratching around for 19th century sources that appear to support it. I agree that the relevant aspects of the JW belief can easily be accommodated elsewhere, and that any disagreement among reliable sources over the shape of the gibbet can be discussed at a different place. This is a troublesome article that has undergone numerous name changes and it gives little evidence that the best-intentioned editors can remedy it. It was probably just a bad idea to begin with. BlackCab (talk) 08:21, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment - the article was started several years ago to promote the JW view, and then opposing views were added in attempt to provide balance. The fact remains that there isn't really an active dispute between any specific parties. Notable views on the shape of the device purportedly used can be briefly covered at the main crucifixion article.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:29, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Please see the comments below, regarding the fact that there is nothing brief about the topic, that notability of the topic is not disputed, that the rationale was "content reduction", and that an Afd is not the the vehicle for managing content disputes when consensus cannot be reached. History2007 (talk) 17:53, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. As user Jeffro states, it may have started as way to "promote the JW view, and then opposing views were added". May not be an active dispute, but the article can still cover the history of the dispute, whether JW or secular historians weigh in. Boneyard90 (talk) 10:15, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

I think the "Oppose'" vote most likely means "Keep", so could you clarify that please so it is similar to the others? Thanks. History2007 (talk) 08:22, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Duh. Boneyard90 (talk) 13:36, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Response: I believe I made this very suggestion here. I've since gone cold on the idea. Watch Tower publications rely on just three sources (and a blatant misuse of another) so I think the origin of their belief can be expressed in a sentence or two at the Beliefs of JW article. As another editor on the talk page suggested, it may be a rather big job to outline all the sources supporting a traditional cross-shaped gibbet. The deniers, or sceptic groups, are comparatively few in number. BlackCab (talk) 11:09, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment - There isn't and hasn't been a notable dispute. There are varying views about the shape of the device, and those can be briefly presented at Crucifixion of Jesus.--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:31, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment No, the "briefly" part is not accurate. This subject is of heated interest to so many people around the world, and so much material exists on it that there is only one brief conclusion: it is not a "brief subject". An entire section can be written on the "artistic depictions" of the crucifixion method, e.g. use of ropes, standing platform, tree vs solid cross, three nails vs four nails, etc., etc. This is not a brief topic. If you wish to delete some of the content because you disagree with it, you need to follow the proper Misplaced Pages protocols via consensus. An Afd is absolutely not a vehicle for "content reduction". I would have never nominated an article for Afd just to reduce its content. Afd should rely on notability first and foremost which was not even part of the rationale for the Afd. The topic is notable. Period. History2007 (talk) 09:53, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

The nominating editor has been surprisingly candid that he would rather see this article deleted than improved!--AuthorityTam (talk) 17:42, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Ok, then that means that this is a case of "An Afd that is not an Afd" because it is an Afd not based on policy, but based on a content dispute. In view of that, this may even have to be a WP:SK 2.d: nominations that are clearly an attempt to end an editing dispute through deletion, in any case. History2007 (talk) 22:50, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

• Merge and redirect to Crucifixion of Jesus and Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs#Cross, merging to both and redirecting to a disambig page. The content is worth saving, but it needs cleanup and isn't worthy of its own page. ChromaNebula (talk) 15:14, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect to Crucifixion of Jesus and Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs#Cross, per ChromaNebula. Generally fails notability for a stand-alone article. Nonnotable fringe theory. Edison (talk) 04:08, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

• Keep There is clear notability to this view alone, per its discussion in other sources. Provided that an appropriately NPOV article is maintained, it's entirely appropriate to cover it here. WP is not claiming that this viewpoint is true, merely that some believe it, and that others have commented upon that belief. It is however a minority view. It would be unbalanced to cover it to this depth, in the main article (a section and link would be appropriate). Andy Dingley (talk) 12:58, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
• Keep; encyclopedic discussion of the shape of impalement gibbets is plainly notable. Should Misplaced Pages alone keep its head in the sand? This article here isn't even slightly POV, but contains just as much 'proof' that the gibbet was a crux immissa as it does 'proof' that the gibbet was a crux simplex; both those analyses are presented here in an encyclopedic manner. This article is certainly not an example of WP:CFORK, where the same topic is discussed in parallel articles. Incidentally (and at the risk of having WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS screamed at me), Misplaced Pages has other articles related to hypotheses about Jesus: Swoon hypothesis, Stolen body hypothesis, Vision hypothesis. Comparing and contrasting, is Crux simplex hypothesis uniquely intolerable? The article at Crucifixion of Jesus discusses everything related to Jesus' crucifixion, and has just a sentence or two about the shape of the gibbet; extended discussion of gibbet shape there would constitute WP:UNDUE. Both sides of the gibbet-shape "dispute" are well sourced from secondary sources (rather than JW literature), and it seems remarkably unlikely that the Misplaced Pages community would benefit from eliminating the majority of the topic discussion just to shoehorn the topic into a single section at Crucifixion of Jesus. The "dispute" seems to have continued for more than 150 years now (preceding Jehovah's Witnesses) and most of the cited scholars are not Witnesses. Perhaps reinstate the former, less-ambiguous article title? I'm still unconvinced about the nominator's decision to change from what was a perfectly acceptable name ("Dispute about the shape of the gibbet of Jesus"). Compare Stauros; that is the odd duck article.--AuthorityTam (talk) 18:43, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:29, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

• Keep and rename to Method of Jesus' execution. This is hardly a fringe theory, but the article should be broader than the pole vs. cross debate - mention should be made of the theory that Jesus died on a T-shaped cross. This is actually mentioned in the article, but lumped in with "crossbeam" theories. StAnselm (talk) 01:34, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

• Keep-The subject is of sufficient notability that the page is justified, and dispute seems to be a proper characterization of the subject considering the polarized views held by individual groups. I therefore think it should be kept as it currently exists. Just as a side note, somehow, I seem to have been left out of the AfD notification process, but fortunately I discovered it in time to participate. Willietell (talk) 05:25, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
• Neutral. If this article were deleted, a new article should be written on "Early Christian descriptions of the cross of Christ". I think this would be preferable to the present arrangement, but do not wish to make an issue of it. Esoglou (talk) 07:16, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

• Strong Keep (and rename, but no merge). The subject of the article is notable, there is no question in that and no one even denies the notability on this talk page - so deletion is out of the question. And the quality of content is no reason for deletion, given the notability. And the rationale in the Afd nomination is to "delete some of the content" because it may be POV!. Really? Is an Afd a method for content adjustment? If a user wants to delete content he should build consensus for deletion using proper Misplaced Pages policies, not use an Afd as a "means for content deletion". Afd is not for dispute resolution over content. And it absolutely (I mean absolutely) does not make sense to merge this with the Crucifixion of Jesus page because there is so much text here that will dominate that page. This is a small part of the Crucifixion episode and can not dominate that page. There is already a summary of it there, and if it gets any larger, will have to split out anyway, per WP:Undue. However, Misplaced Pages aside, somehow this topic (which is of minor interest to most people) seems to generate a special type of obsession in a number of people around the world that defies comprehension. Hence, it is not surprising that it will continue to be hotly debated on Misplaced Pages. It needs its own page and its own professional debating society, hence the page needs to remain. But a rename to Method of Jesus' execution may make sense as StAnselm suggested above. History2007 (talk) 08:20, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

• Keep and rename to Method of Jesus' execution as suggested above. There is scope to expand the brief summary about nails and ropes from Crucifixion of Jesus#Nails in the context of a broader article. The dispute with JWs might still form a large part of the article, but the page could benefit from expansion including rhetorical, theological and artistic interpretations of the method of crucifixion. Oppose merge as this is a side topic that should be covered in the encyclopedia, but would be too long to incorporate into either of the merge targets named above. – Fayenatic L (talk) 13:28, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

• Comment Based on the user talk page link provided by AuthorityTam above, this seems like a clear case of WP:SK 2.d: i.e. nominations that are clearly an attempt to end an editing dispute through deletion, given that the nominator stated that he would prefer deletion over article improvement via consensus. History2007 (talk) 22:54, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Response I think AuthorityTam is being mischievous in his suggestion. Jeffro had previously clearly expressed his desire to have the page deleted. I sought some feedback from him over a proposal to rewrite and reangle the article; his response was to repeat his earlier preference for deletion and therefore indifference at my suggestion. The ongoing changes in the title of the article and its lead section show quite clearly the disagreement and uncertainty over the thrust of the article. Should it highlight the beliefs of JWs as its lede? Should it emphasise that religion's "dispute" with orthodox Christianity? Should it state that the religion denies the orthodox view and then analyse its sources for such a belief and present the contradictory evidence? Should it focus on the range of possibilities and mention the religion only in passing? Or should the range of beliefs about the shape of the gibbet be merged into another article? If the article is saved but this issue isn't resolved, it will remain as a poor article and the subject of a slow-motion edit war. BlackCab (talk) 23:46, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment: I think you made a clear case for WP:SK. Your reasoning that keeping the article will result in a "slow-motion edit war" indicates that attempted deletion is a path to "avoid an ongoing slow motion edit dispute". This is exactly, exactly what WP:SK 2.d is about: nominations that are clearly an attempt to end an editing dispute through deletion. Your comment made the case for WP:SK 2.d clear. Thank you. History2007 (talk) 23:53, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not the nominator, so my views don't impact on WP:SK at all. I have already explained the deficiencies of the article and why I think it should go. The inability of editors to agree on the point of it is central to that. And I find it odd that you, suddenly so emotional about it, appear to have never contributed to the article to improve it or suggest a way out of the impasse. BlackCab (talk) 01:11, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Again, the fact that:

• a number of users have an edit dispute,
• one of them nominates the article for deletion to end the dispute

provide the exact criteria for the application of WP:SK 2.d. That is clearly the case here. History2007 (talk) 05:51, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

• Comment About a year ago, I suggested that I would prepare a sandbox article for reducing the dispute article to something usable at the crucifixion article. This was met with dramatic claims that this article could be expanded with what were claimed to be other 'significant' details, such as an alleged 'dispute' about the number of nails used. Since it was claimed that this article would be improved, I terminated work on my sandbox copy. Since then, very little has happened to improve this article, and it still does very little to indicate why the 'dispute' is significant. See Talk:Crucifixion of Jesus#Merge (POV fork).--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:42, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

• AfD debates (Not yet sorted)
• AfD debates