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Viktorija Rajicic

Just a quick comment about your edit history. It was not a case of "not realising", it was a case of "not believing". The article had been subject to two previous deletion discussions. It had not been speedy deleted then. The CSD guidelines say that CSD should be used when admins "have broad consensus to bypass deletion discussion." The article does not qualify for WP:SD#G4 because she has since joined the ITP tour, and is not far from meeting our tennis notability criteria. My invitation for you to nominate the article for speedy deletion was an invitation for you to exercise your democratic rights. I would suggest that it is a very bad idea to "put words" into other users' mouths. — Fly by Night (talk) 20:10, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

I did not mean to put words in your mouth if it sounded that way. Me saying "It seems the editor who nominated this for afd did not realize it qualified for speedy deletion" meant maybe you did not realize it qualified for speedy delete... nothing more. I believed it did qualify for speedy delete per your afd but after looking closer I have now however decided I was wrong and redacted it as she was in the main doubles draw of the Aussie Open in 2011. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:31, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for removing the AfD template from the article. I forgot to do it myself. — Fly by Night (talk) 19:53, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Removing AfD template

Welcome to Misplaced Pages. Please do not remove Articles for deletion notices from articles, or remove other people's comments in Articles for deletion debates, as you did with Viktorija Rajicic. Otherwise, it may be difficult to create consensus. If you oppose the deletion of an article, please comment at the respective page instead. This is an automated message about this edit, where you removed the deletion template from an article before the deletion discussion was complete. If this message is in error, please report it. Snotbot  t • c »  15:30, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I deleted the afd notice when it was closed. Some admin then reopened it and this stupid bot appears here. LOL. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:36, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Qualifying Draws

Pardon me. I always got a bit confused with everyone putting the qualification draws in their separate pages, then some other bloke creating a new page for it, and then someone else saying "that's not how you do it" and then another page someone doing something different etc. And the guidelines page also being rather vague about the issue. But now I see that it does indeed say Do not create standalone articles for the qualifying rounds of smaller tournaments. Just add them below the main draw in the Draw article. I've no idea what they mean by "smaller tournaments", but I'll assume it means not Grand Slams. I do apologise for any inconvience my confusion and misreading may've caused. Kapitan110295 (talk) 00:13, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

No apologies needed, I just keep merging the draws and I figured it would sure save me some time if they were created in the correct place to begin with. It's a thankless tedious job to create the qualifying draws so I really appreciate you taking the time to do it. We need that at wiki projecttennis (and I don't like to do it myself). Thanks a lot Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:19, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

AfD for Hormazabal

He played Davis Cup in 2009, although it was a dead rubber. Chile lost that tie by 5-0 and this was the fourth rubber. It is not unusual that lowest ranked player in the team is given a chance in a dead rubber match. But this then makes them notable according to our guidelines. This puts questionable players in for a WP article. I wonder whether we should try to put an exception in the guidelines, so that Davis Cup or Fed Cup play only satisfies NTENNIS if it was not only dead rubber match(es). MakeSense64 (talk) 07:43, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I should have guessed... a Davis Cup match. Good catch by you. I have no good answer about playing in the dead rubbers and whether they are notable or not. I was assuming that simply being announced as being on the team qualified you for being notable at NTENNIS. Whether it should I just don't know and would have to chew on it a bit. What I do wish is that if a player is pretty unknown and an article gets made about them, that the editor/creator should be "required" to put in why that player is notable. Tournaments too. That way we wouldn't have to do all the searching to see if they have merit or not. Thanks. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:15, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

The Davis (Fed) Cup banana peel. Happens to all of us. I use a software called oncourt (unfortunately not free) to pull up any match/results for any player since 1998 or so. That's why I am quick, but not always right ;-)

I think being on the Davis of Fed Cup team is not enough to be notable. Must have played at least in one match. Actually, it's not always easy (or even possible) to find out the 5 names that were on some Davis or Fed Cup team 5 or 10 years ago , especially when they were not in world group. We can only confirm them if they have actually played and are thus appearing on the player's record.

Davis Cup now gives ranking points for play in Davis Cup matches, but no points are given if it is dead rubber match . This gives us a good argument that play in dead rubbers is not notable. MakeSense64 (talk) 09:55, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Margaret Court

OK will bring it up on the talk page... Edelmand (talk) 23:45, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

My rationale for including the information has now been put on the talk page, thanks.Edelmand (talk) 01:41, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

No prob. You are supposed to be bold and add it so no quarrel there. But upon revert we either move on or if determined bring it to talk to see if persuasion will work. I'll take a look at your rationale. Fyunck(click) (talk) 02:55, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Fyunck Edelmand (talk) 13:33, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Special character entry

I'm not sure if it was your intention to come across as patronising, but that's the way I read it, no need for that. Regarding your point, well, you're wrong I'm afraid. Those special character entry symbols are not visible to people using wikipedia on screen readers hence using † as this makes them visible. That was the reason I put them in the list, if you want the list to reach featured standard, they will have to be used, I haven't looked to see whether you've removed them or not, but I assure you should the list go back to FLC, they will need to be used.

I did not intend anything other than to give examples of what is proper in wikipedia and I backed it up with wikipedia's own rule page on special characters. That's all I intended so sorry if it came out any other way. I just tried to be thorough. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:47, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Okie dokie no problem, but if the list does go to FLC again they will need to be used, but I guess that can wait till it goes back there. NapHit (talk) 20:08, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Let me ask you this then... Why that particular symbol? I can absolutely say that &ndash or {{ndash}} are not needed for FLC pages in tennis... plenty have passed muster with a simple "–" symbol. In fact the &ndash is being systematically removed from all wiki articles in favor of the unicode symbol. So why is the dagger different and why does wikipedia itself recommend using only the symbol on it's character page if it is against FLC quality? Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:18, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Its too with accessibility issues. For people using a computer there is no issue with the dagger as we can see it clearly. However, people using screen readers have difficulty seeing the dagger, hence why the template was created so this problem can be averted. This is now commonplace at FLC, every list that now goes through the process (which uses daggers) employs this template. The dash must be visible by screen readers as must other symbols such as the asterix, as for the conflict with wikipedia's own rules, I guess that needs updating! NapHit (talk) 20:59, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Could you point me to the place where it says that FLC must have {{dagger}} or it won't get approved? In looking around it appears the dagger is not in the Latin 1 script that screen readers use but then neither are ndashes and mdashes. If there is no place then can you point me to an administrator that makes those decisions so I can figure out the ambiguity? Thanks. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:45, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Here is an FLC where the dagger issue is discussed. If you've got questions about the dagger and dash etc, i suggest you talk to RexxS as he ivory knowledgeable about accessibility issues and i'm sure he would be able to answer any of your questions. NapHit (talk) 18:30, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:19, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Moving Stuff

Hi Bloom6312 is moving players records into the main article which is fine in the case of John McEnroe but he has transfered all of Jimmy Connors career statistics article to one page which is not in line with his decision just to add the records section with other players V Strange, In case you have noticed I' trying to tidy the WTA records up a bit space wise as with the ATP one think there looking a bit better regards --Navops47 (talk) 06:30, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry very strange all back to normal don't know what I was looking at--Navops47 (talk) 06:57, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

The page was way to big as it was but now it looks kind of wimpy. I had to fix his career stat link as it was broken. We have to put the grand slam tournament chart back in (although in smaller form). As I was told many times, ideally we have a career stat page for all who have won a Major in their careers, and also yearly pages of all their wins.... 1935 Fred Perry Tennis Season, etc... But we only make these separate pages when and if there is enough material that it spills from the main page. I'll put the slam chart back in expurgated form. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:03, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi can you check Connors am I seeing two GS performance charts on his main page I keep thinking it a problem with my computer ta--Navops47 (talk) 07:36, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

LOL...probably me... I added at the same time he corrected it so there were two. Mine is a smaller version so I keept it but I don't have the year end total wins and losses so they were left with ? marks. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:38, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

now the totals are there as are both year end championships. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:59, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks they look good and complete now--Navops47 (talk) 20:54, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

On the other stuff we have been talking about check this site out http://mcubed.net/ click the tennis section at the top --Navops47 (talk) 02:57, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

what do you think of this player?

Poojashree Venkatesha

I see only some $10k titles. Does a silver medal at Commonwealth Youth Games satisfy NTENNIS? MakeSense64 (talk) 12:46, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I checked and she played FedCup for India in 2010 and 2011. You might want to add that fact somewhere in her references so we don't have to look again. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:58, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry this took so long

David Savic

You've given him two different birth dates - please check your sources. PamD 11:31, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

 Done - Thanks... no idea why I did that. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:47, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

1931 in tennis

Hello. Thank you for your help in identifying the dates, but they would also need the references. I came across some dates while Googling, but most of them were forums. So if you please share the sources for them in the date coloumn it would be splendid (after that they could be easily moved to their appropriate month section). I hope we can make 1931 an example for further pre-open era year articles. Lajbi 10:00, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually not every single thing needs a source. Things that are likely to be challenged need sources... like the winners and scores. The dates are pretty iffy in the whole scheme of things. Also, in the past we at tennis project have discussed the importance of one particular forum called tennisforum.com. It isn't the first or second choice for a source here at tennis project but the blast from the past section expertise on scores and dates has been used many times in articles here. The experts there have access to yearly almanacs and newspapers that no one else has. Many old tournaments articles at wikipedia wouldn't exist at all if not for Rollo and his friends at tennisforum.com. So we get secondary sources for scores and such if possible, then tertiary sources and then we turn to tennisforum.com. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:18, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I think that tennisforum.com wouldn't stand the reliability test of a larger Misplaced Pages committee (larger than tennis wikiproject)...it would be even rejected in a featured article nomination - I think. And if we keep on focusing on creating featured tennis articles we must ignore forums no matter how many experts are registered there (sadly). So I would emphasise using our own newspaper resources and books on the internet. As you can see it's not an impossible task to do considering most of the 1931 dated press materials are 70+ free of copyright and easy to access. Lajbi 07:57, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, many of the tournaments pre-1960 on wikipdeia have been done using tennisforum.com as have many of the tennis records. Or the articles wouldn't exist. I would always emphasize newsprint and books first, But I don't throw out info if the only place it exists is tennisforum. You have a source for 1931 but what it doesn't tell you is how big a tourney is. That Finnish championships (indoor and outdoor) I believe was so minor as to be ITF quality these days, which isn't notable. Some of the info you have listed may not pass muster as far as being a quality tournament. Also ESPN has at times used tennisforum for it's sources so when you see a record on espn that's where it may have come from. I have no doubt that it would not pass FA, but then again none of our tennis articles pass FA even with tremendous sources. You say it's not impossible... on some dates that may be true, but I believe on most older years it is impossible to find that information where some of the only books/magazines are owned by tennisforum editors. Without tennisforum many tennis articles would simply vanish and that would be a shame. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:23, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Another thing. The site name is tennisforum.com but that doesn't mean everything in it is a forum. What I am talking about is the moderated massive database it contains at Blast From The Past. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:55, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I will check it. Lajbi 10:16, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

You are right about tournament notability. I couldn't sort it out since there's no standard for it. The most I could do is narrowing them to main nationals (they were big things before professional tennis) and international championships with several nations represented. Also I didn't link their names (only the ones that have legal successor). I've listed the other tournaments in the written prose intro for each month, and not included them in the detailed wikitable (as I did for German tournaments where only Germans competed and the Pro tour, which was extremely limited at that time - the same four players beat each other around). Anyhow it's still shorter than its Italian wikipage counterpart and half the size than e.g. the 2011 ATP World Tour. Lajbi 10:29, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Okay, so if the dates came from tennisforum.com then then they were wrong . I checked the Czechoslovakian Championships, which you and they dated to 8-15 Septembre. The things that the Hungarian Championships were held from 2-11 September, which is 100% sure and that Hyotare Sato were present in both of them creates an anomaly. There's not even a slight chance for traveling the distance within the given time since he was a winner of the first and runner-up for the latter. Now the thing is that there's a detailed report in the Hungarian comtemporary tennis newspaper Tennisz és golf about the Hungarian Championships and they claim that by the time of the entries made there Sato was already a Czechoslovakian champion...I think that makes the forum quite unreliable . Please - if you feel like - answer me on my talk page. Lajbi 09:04, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Two things. Errors in transcribing can always happen. Also the info for 1931 results is sourced to "Lowes Lawn Tennis Annual 1932" so it is possible the error lies there. Also, those results are for women only so the men's final may have overlapped a few days. It also has the Hungarian Championships as running from September 1-8. I'll ask someone there to explain the difference. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:02, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm happy others get the chance to read Tennisz és Golf. It's a rarity that such an old periodical survived the times and can be accessed via a legal site. Adding the fact that no tennis newspaper even exists in Hungary to this day it's more of a value. Hope we get to know the date of the Czechoslovakian champs soon. Lajbi 09:25, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

and almost forgot. If you want to post a source for the "1-8 September date" to the forum than link this issue, page 61. Lajbi 13:24, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Okay problem solved. I did my background research and it turned out that the Czech tournament was indeed from 8-14, but not in Septembre but three month earlier in JUNE. page 132. So now the forum can correct it as well. Make sure they credit Misplaced Pages . Lajbi 15:09, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Diacritics

Hi. I'm really not sure where things stand, in regards to a player's article name, so hoping you can clear things up. To date I've been going by whichever version of their name has the most incoming links (it's usually about 80% + one way). I did have a look at the WP:Tennis guidelines and noted that ATP and ITF spelling should be used, which would always seem to be the English spelling. However I then keep seeing pages like Robin Söderling, Juan Martín del Potro, Petra Kvitová etc (those at Category:Czech male tennis players invariably have their Czech names too). Is there a reason why diacritics are used in these cases or is it just a case of conflicting naming preferences between those in the tennis wikiproject and those from else where? Jevansen (talk) 04:33, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I won't deny that there is some strife amongst editors. Tennis project policy is to use ATP, ITF, Davis Cup, US/UK/Aussie or Canadian newspapers for sourcing in this English Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages itself is split down the middle. There is the number one tennis player in the world at Novak Djokovic and hockey project which just moved Marek Židlický to Marek Zidlicky. I follow the tennis guidelines as they are right there for all to see and if I encounter page moves or new pages (most of the thousands of which I miss) I do my best to check those sources and move if needed. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:48, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

RE:Ladies names

That's a strange thing. Let's take a present-day example to get a clear picture. By that standard (better known married name on pre-marriage draws) it would mean that we should rename "Miroslava Vavrinec" to Mirka Federer in e.g. the 1999 French Open – Women's Singles, just because she is known by that name now and probably she'll be remembered like Mrs. Federer forever. I think that would look awkward, wouldn't it? So I'd apply the same logic on older tennis-related pages as well. What's your opinion? Lajbi 20:52, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

It's a fine line but it was argued about in the past. If you look at List of Grand Slam women's singles champions you'll see the gals with their married names. Even Maureen Connolly Brinker... and she was married after she retired! I'm not making a case either way, I'm just saying that's the way it's been done here for quite awhile. For me, I would want to use the same name throughout every article for consistency for our readers (plus charts we make). What name that should be is up for debate. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:24, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

That's okay when choosing the main article title for a player. But until redirects and ] syntax allow us to adjust the draws as they actually happened I would stick to the names that were in use when the draw was made. Lajbi 14:38, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

And one more important thing: With her marriage Hilde Krahwinkel also changed her nationaly to Danish. Kea Bouman and Margaretha Dros-Canters gave up their sport careers after they married. So we can declare that in 30s marriage change the life of women. So giving the impression that they were married at a certain time when they actually weren't would mislead the readers. It's just like giving a Danish flagicon to Miss Krahwinkel to each pre-1933 article. I don't know when married names was discussed in the Wikiproject but I'd recommend it to be rediscussed. Lajbi 19:33, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

It's probably reasonable to keep the names in the draw as they were portrayed at the time. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:22, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

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Thomas Kromann

New tennis article. He appears not to be notable. However, I'm not sure on the Men's side. Could you take a look? If he is notable, could you tell me why, so I can learn. Bgwhite (talk) 09:29, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I sure can help. The players should always have an ITF and ATP link on the bottom of the page, as does Thomas Kromann. Look at the ATP link and you'll notice a career won-loss record in singles and doubles. If you look at the ITF link you'll see the same thing under "main draw" tour level only. Sometimes the win-loss doesn't match the atp and itf... I don't know why. Now according to Tennis Project Guidelines a player is notable if he has EVER played in the main draw of a tour level event... whether they win or lose or whether it's doubles or singles. So those win-loss records are dead giveaways of notability. If you look at the ATP playing activity it goes year by year and if you see a win or a loss at the top you can scroll down and find the actual tournament he played in. Instead of F1 or F2 (Futures) or Ch (Challenger)...you'll see blah blah 250, blah blah 500... those are tour events. In Thomas's case you see something different. In 2012 activity you see SLO vs. DEN EAGI 1st Rd... that's a Davis Cup event and simply playing in that also make a player instantly notable. To confirm you can go to www.daviscup.com and do a player search under Denmark and his name will appear. This guy is notable per tennis guidelines.

It's not in our guidelines but I'm gonna talk to editors about it. Any new player article should really have a ref to that notability source to help out wikipedia in sorting good articles from bad. I have been trying to do that myself in the last bunch of new players I've added. I'll put this on you talk page too so you'll always be able to find it in your archives if needed. I hope this helps you out and happy editing. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:03, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Ah, thank you. I knew that Davis Cup players were notable, but like you explained, I didn't know where to find it. Oh, I am a page stalker of yours. I've asked so many questions in the past and will probably in the future, that I have you on speed dial. Bgwhite (talk) 10:11, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Love it.... speed dial :-) I'm not always right (as others have pointed out)... but I do try my best and I always help if I can. And I lose my share of consensus polls too... I just move on if I'm on the losing end and follow the new consensus. There's so much to do at tennis project it's not worth continuing the arguing once an admin settles it. By the way Fed Cup, Hopman Cup, and Wightman Cup also make one notable if it ever comes up. Cheers. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:24, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Nobody is always right. However, you always explain things so well. I completely understand what you are talking about. I hate tennis, but the best WikiProject is Tennis... organized (best as chaos can get) and great explanations. Bgwhite (talk) 10:28, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

José Pereira (tennis)

Hey, see talk page there. ;) Kante4 (talk) 11:12, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I just did... he fails but you can try to get the rules changed at Project Tennis. I'd probably vote against it though as we have too many players listed already. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:13, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Race, ancestry, and language edit on CT page

I'm just curious as to why you stated that on the Race, ancestry, and language section of the Connecticut page that there was a "strange addition of flags that violates MOS on flags". I didn't put the flags there, but I can see where there are useful. Having the flags there allowed one to quickly identify, visually, the different ancestry's represented in the state. I also didn't see where in the MOS that it was a violation to include those in a list. I only saw that headings should not contain flag icons. Can you clarify that? Dbroer (talk) 15:42, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

As I now look, the person that did do it also added those same flags to a dozen states and was reverted in all of them for the same reasons. The flags should never be associated with ethnicities - if they get used at all it is to designate items associated with the actual country. I meant to say MOS:FLAG instead of just MOS. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:40, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Novak Djokovic and Djokovic–Murray rivalry

I asked you what you have against the tennis player Novak Djokovic and you did not answered, you and another user consistently perform violence on Misplaced Pages especially when the article was linked to Novak Djokovic? Why this behavior? Do you have an explanation? Soundwaweserb (talk) 20:51, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

I love Novak and his tennis. I don't like useless tennis articles. This is not a fan site this is an encyclopedia and certain things do not belong here. Djokovic-Murray article is against our rules which I didn't write, I just follow the rules. Sorry if that bothers you but it is what it is. The Roger Federer stat page is oversized by 35k (about a third too big) and that will have to be trimmed way back. Those are the rules, which again I didn't make, and people will be unhappy with me and other tennis editors but it has to be done. That's the way it works here. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:00, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Nomination of Facundo Arguello (tennis) for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Facundo Arguello (tennis) is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Facundo Arguello (tennis) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. Night of the Big Wind _talk 22:08, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Find and replace

• Please be more careful when using find and replace in the future. Usages in file names and interwiki templates are the way they were for a reason, and you broke three links to Commons in that switch around. Courcelles 20:59, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Oops, sorry. I was just gonna do it by hand but when it came up with 150 entries that needed to be changed I just used MS Word. I was careful for the bottom links and categories but must have missed 3 inbetweens. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:08, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

No problem, though I don't know any way to do it with Word, I've seen the issue pop up with AWB before, and that's easier to check as it shows diffs you can go through to make sure you didn't find and replace anything you didn't want to. Courcelles 21:24, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not registered to use AutoWikBrowser so MSWord has always done the job quickly, but it doesn't show differences that I know of. I usually go back and immediately check for new broken links but I got called away and forgot this time. I would have quickly caught the two pics but still would have missed your first correction of the commons link. As you said, sloppy on my part. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:40, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Aaah, now, see, that problem I can solve. ;) Happy editing. Courcelles 21:51, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks... I'll give it a shot to see how it works. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:14, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Dénes Lukács

You are in a serious mistake here. "moved against sources, tennis project consensus, and tennis project guidelines" is nothing to do with the facts. Tennis project consensus has nothing to do Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons. The 90% of English sources don't/can't use accents. Tomáš Berdych, Feliciano López, Marc López, Gastón Etlis, Michaël Llodra, Gaël Monfils - and the list goes on - are represented here with accents, though a bunch of English sources, even ITF doesn't use their accents (I guess they couldn't even find it in their keyboard) and also I can drop a hundred Hungarian ones that puts on the proper accents. That's really the wrong way if it is backed up with some sort of project consensus because it's non-sense. Lajbi 21:43, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

(Talk page stalker) I'm not part of Wikiproject Tennis. But, yes, Wikiprojects can and do have guidelines on diacritics/accents. WikiProject Hockey states the title for a player must be how it is spelled in English sources, but the native way to spell the name must show up in the first sentence of the article. Most English sources do not use diacritics/accents. For Tennis, ATP and ITF sources usually don't use diacritics/accents.

The guidelines on Misplaced Pages as a whole is at WP:DIACRITICS.... "follow the general usage in reliable sources that are written in the English language". Remember that this is WikiProject ENGLISH. Bgwhite (talk) 22:22, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Okay but what you don't know is that an accent can make a difference between two different words (thus in this case persons). If you erase the accents than two names with distinct spellings can become one. But that's just one important point. I don't want to get into linguistics but it simply isn't how it works. Only non-arabic (cyrillic, Chinese) letters are usually transcripted. It would start a serious confusion if every European language starts to remove letters and accents that don't exist in their ones. Speculating further that not every phonemes (the real basis of human speech) equals with one letter, then even more digraphes come into play, which could result in more removals, just because they don't exist in English (and vice versa in Misplaced Pages language sister projects). The pro-conversion reasoning is more simple than rational, which is malicious. Lajbi 23:19, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I completely understand about accents and making distinct spellings. You have your views, but saying 95%+ of the English world is doing this to be malicious is going too far. Transliteration, transcripting or translating from one system to another is never going to be perfect. As the old saying goes... you say tomato, I say tomahto. Bgwhite (talk) 23:36, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Funny but your "saying" shows how that doesn't work here. Following that logic you should entitle the article Daenesh Lookats. But apart of that joke please note that "cs" is one letter in Hungarian so you probably has to change that to "ts" and it's not funny. That's what the accent logic would result. Lajbi 10:09, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

And it is what Tennis Project has been using for 4 years though I realize that some editors don't follow it... I do. The last consensus was "no diacritics" but that really went against wiki policy so if the multitude of English sources use diacritics we'll go with that, if not we go with the standard English alphabet as always here. And the ITF doesn't seem to "always" have problems with diacritics as in my edits I have noticed players listed there from cities where the city names have diacritics but the player names does not. It must be a conscious effort on their part to use common English in the player's name. And check out the Czech wikipedia and you'll see they change the English spelling of people like Serena Williams to Serena Williamsová... that's fine because if that's the way they spell it in Czech with Czech sources then that's the way it should be. Here we use the English alphabet if it is also done that way by the ITF, ATP, WTA, Davis Cup, Wimbledon etc... When my family goes to Poland we spell one of our surnames Kołodziej, but in the USA and UK we spell it Kolodziej. I know we agree 90% of the time but this is just one of those times I guess where we are on opposite sides of the same fence. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:23, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

What about those tons of articles I've listed (and could list even more of them)? Don't tell me that in the majority of English sources "López" is spelled correctly instead of just writing "Lopez". Even when it comes to lower ranked ones, like Marc López or Guillermo-Garcia López so to say. I'm also sure that the "¨" is missing from "ä" many times let it be French or German names. So this whole source logic is just isn't true.

Your example about the "ová" is not what we are talking about. It's another instance of oversimplifing the problem. In Slovakian and Czech it is just the "female mark", it's not more than Miss or Mrs. in English. Hungarian uses "né" at the end of a women's name to indicite she's married (and I'm pretty sure English sources make the same mistake when labelling someones Mrs. Navratilová (CZE) or Mrs. Schréderné (HUN) instead of using just one of the "marks") So returning to Hungarian that's what agglutinative languages do - they "add" (they add "of", "to", "at", "from" ...etc to the end of the word, but that doesn't mean they change the core nor that they use it like that from then on). In that case removing would be okay, because English rather put attributes before the word and not stick onto its end. But English doesn't have a rule to compulsorily remove accents from names for sure. It doesn't distuingish anything in English but does in the affected language. That's why I said not to get into linguistics because things will probably be mixed up.

I would say leave this decision to players. Novak Đoković deliberately and officially changed his name to Novak Djokovic about 5 years ago and it's his choice. Mirka Federer uses that name instead of Mirka Federerová, which would be the one that she should be using as being a Czech woman. Don't do it in their places. Tennis articles here use Novak Đoković in early draws, I'm pretty sure 2007 English sources don't give a damn about that accent on D, it's Misplaced Pages who cares, because we can be better than that. Lajbi 10:03, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Those tons of articles are plentiful on the non-diacritic side also so listing them is pointless, but we go with the English sources we can find on the internet... wikipedia needs to be sourced. Plus consensus here has been to use those sources for years... I can't help it if editors don't read the talk pages or guidelines. The English alphabet has no diacritics so any name that gets added to English invariably drops them. And the articles that use Novak Đoković in the early draws do so because Tennis project hasn't gotten round to change them yet. It takes time to correct them all. We have criteria like WP:UE, WP:UCN, WP:COMMONSENSE, WP:RS to work with and we've taken those things and by consensus have used them to mold a working rule on Project tennis. You may not like it but that's how it is. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:21, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2012_February_28#Category:Canada_Masters

Could you please revisit this CfD discussion after I amended the original proposal? Regards, Armbrust, B.Ed. _{about my edits?} 02:03, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

 Done Fyunck(click) (talk) 02:12, 1 March 2012 (UTC)