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Revision as of 18:12, 21 March 2012

Culture Template‑class

This template is within the scope of WikiProject Culture, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of culture on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CultureWikipedia:WikiProject CultureTemplate:WikiProject Cultureculture Template This template does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

Notes

• In coding this template, I have not allowed the automatic creation of list entries based on a nationaltity signifier; i.e. entries such as "List of Xian artists" and "Xian literature". My reason is that doing so would allow confusion between ethnic group signifiers and nationality signifiers, where the same word refers to both. For example, an article on "Russian food" could be expected to refer to food of the Russian ethnic group whereas an article on "Food of Russia" would refer to food in the Russian Federation, both ethnic Russian and otherwise. Being region-oriented, the templates based on this one should refer to the nationality signifier only.

Having said that, sometimes a default list title such as "Literature of X" redirects to a potentially confusing title such as "Xian literature" (confusing for the reason mentioned above). In those cases, it is possible to override the default list title, but only if a more accurate article exists as an alternative. In other words, clarifying the titles of such articles has been left up to the editors of those articles.

Also, where an existing region culture template has already included entries in the format of "Xian things" or "List of Xian things", I have kept those entries while updating the template to the new version. As so many of them include such entries, I'd rather gain consensus for a total removal rather than causing friction by being too bold.

ClaretAsh 00:07, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Concerns

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Should we use a generic template that may or may not produce red links?Moxy (talk) 15:07, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
I have reverted the addition of this template at Template:Culture of Canada sidebar - as per WP:REDNOT - is there a way to fix this so the thing is not full of red links?Moxy (talk) 14:34, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, by creating the redlinked articles or redirecting the redlinks to alternatively named versions (eg. redirecting "Sport in foo" to "Sport of foo" where the former is a redlink and the latter is the actal article). I set the template to show certain default links to articles (both as headings and in some lists) that I believe should exist either as a separate article (under whatever name) or as a section within an existing article. In selecting which links to show by default, I partly followed what articles already existed at the previous templates and what articles I'd expect, as a reader, to find included.

To take the Canada version as an example, the only redlinks at the current time are as follows:

• Traditions of Canada, for which I'd expect an article or a section in an article to exist.
• Mythology of Canada, for which I'd expect an article or a section in an article to exist.
• Folklore of Canada, for which I'd expect an article or a section in an article to exist.
• Festivals of Canada, which could be redirected to List of festivals in Canada.
• Performing arts of Canada, for which I'd expect an article or a section in an article to exist.
• Radio in Canada, for which I'd expect an article or a section in an article to exist.
• Monuments of Canada, which I concede may not always warrant an article but which may be overridden (see template documentation) with a link to the appropriate category.
• List of World Heritage Sites in Canada, which may be redirected to World Heritage Sites in Canada or World Heritage Sites of Canada, if those articles existed. Either way, I'd expect an article or a section in an article to exist, assuming there are any such sites in Canada.

Nonetheless, if no articles exist on a given topic, I have allowed for an override option but only for the list headings. See the template's documentation or feel free to ask me if there's anything you need help with. For all the redlinks, though, it is still possible to create the article as a redirect to a relevant existing article (even if it's only to Culture of Canada).

All in all, I think it better to admit that there are gaps in the range of articles we're offering our readers and try to fill those gaps than to pretend they don't exist by avoiding linking to them. Anyway, I won't revert your changes to the Canada templates but please keep the above comments in mind. Also, thank you for raising your concerns. I appreciate it. ClaretAsh 23:26, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I will see what others have to say - the new template is not easier to navigate then the template before - nor does if follow our rules on red links. Again lets see what others have to say.Moxy (talk) 00:06, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I have to admit I really don't understand where you're coming from. When I look at WP:REDNOT, which you mention above, it merely forbids the creation of red links to articles that will never be created. However, the articles that are redlinked in some of the {{Culture of region}} templates are blue linked in others, supporting my assertion above that in selecting which links to show by default, I partly followed what articles already existed and what articles I'd expect, as a reader, to find included. In simple terms, if I find a group of articles named "Radio in Country A", "Radio in Country B" and "Radio in Country C", I'd naturally expect to find also "Radio in Country D" or at least a section in "Media in Country D", to which the former may be redirected. Or, to quote, WP:REDDEAL, "an example of a plausible red link might be to driving in Germany, since an article on driving in the United States exists, and country-specific driving articles like these are a likely area for future creation.

I see that WP:REDNOT states that red links are generally not included in navboxes. However, not only is this merely a descriptive statement (neither a recommendation nor a rule), it directly contradicts the facts of navigation boxes in Misplaced Pages. In fact, some of the templates I superseded (similar structured to the Canadian one) included red links, and they had been manually added by an editor, not appearing by default as with those I created. Nonetheless, the very next sentence at REDNOT clearly describes series navboxes as being an exception to the REDNOT "rule". {{Culture of region}} clearly falls under this definition.

All this aside, I've already stated above that the red links are easy to fix: either redirect the red link to an existing article or, if the red link in question is a list heading, use the override option I included. Actually, this is all written in the template's documentation. I'd happily do all this myself but I do have commitments outside Misplaced Pages and it will inevitably take time.

Anyway, if you want to seek a neutral opinion, feel free to do so but I'm sure they'll only tell you the same as me. With two solutions available (not counting actually creating the red linked articles), red links in the "Culture of region" templates are a very minor issue. ClaretAsh 07:12, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Red links should be avoided unless they are very likely to be developed into articles, and even if they do, editors are encouraged to write the article first. - We should not make work for others or make others clean up after edits - we now have hundreds of red links on many pages. Anyways to much for me to clean up- I will expand Misplaced Pages:Navigation templates soon to incorporate this problem.Moxy (talk) 14:04, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I've just spent a few moments blue-linking the above (ex-)redlinks. In some cases, I redirected to the relevant category as per common practice.

On a side topic, I have to admit I was surprised to find no articles on such topics as Canadian mythology and folklore. Even the main article, Culture of Canada, seems to completely ignore the folk customs, traditions, superstitions and whatnot of that country, despite having a lot to say about such vaguely relevant topics as legislation and nationalism. Having seen quite a few culture articles over the past few days, I am forced to say that Culture of Canada is a huge let-down: it tells me nothing about how ordinary Canadians think. Who are their folk heroes? What are their cultural quirks? What songs and stories do they pass to their children?

I'm sorry if these criticisms offend you in any way. They're not meant to disparage the effort that has gone into creating Canadian culture articles. However, you need to understand that there is far more to a country's culture than Bilingualism, Free speech, Immigration, Multiculturalism, Nationalism and Protectionism (to mention some of the borderline relevant topics listed in the current sidebar). That the sidebar I created highlights a shortcoming is, to me, a good thing. I hope we can work together on dealing with that. ClaretAsh 14:40, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree about the article, needs lots of work. I have asked for a "Requests for comment" see what othere have to say - I do like the linking of the cats, however this is also not recommended for nav templates. Navigation templates provide navigation between "existing articles" - not categories or to articles that are not there.Moxy (talk) 15:10, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't think REDNOT applies. Rather, RED does, which supports red links. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 15:49, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Please check out Misplaced Pages:Red link#Avoiding creation of certain types of red links. Quote: Red links are generally not included in either See also sections nor in navigational boxes, nor linked to through templates such as Main or Further, since these navigation aids are intended to help readers find existing articles. An exception is red links in navboxes where the red-linked articles are part of a series or a whole set, e.g. a navbox listing successive elections, referendums, presidents, sports league seasons, etc. The following red links are not exceptions to the above rule. They are a Baggin Shop: Traditions of Poland, Festivals of Poland, Performing arts of Poland, Monuments of Poland. What Monuments of Poland? National? Natural? Historic? Cultural? UNESCO sites? Equestrian statues? This is the definition of make-work.Poeticbent talk 16:20, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to think those articles would be created one day. Monuments page would presumably list all applicable, and be split into smaller ones. I don't think natural objects are classified as monuments. Note we have Category:Monuments and memorials in Poland; I tend to think that most if not all categories should have a parent article. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 17:11, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

one-day is right - but until then we should follow our policy on the matter and not link "hundred" of articles people would like to see made in these templates (not the purpose of theses templates). Spamming red links all over is not helpful to our readers.

Template:Culture of the Central African Republic (13 red links - 17 after looking a show)

Template:Culture of Cameroon (10 red links before looking a show)

Template:Culture of Botswana (10 red links before looking a show)

Template:Culture of Chad (10 red links before looking a show)

Template:Culture of Cambodia (10 red links before looking a show)

Template:Culture of Burundi (9 red links before looking a show)

Template:Culture of Germany (9 red links before looking a show)

This goes on and on and on see here. I have also asked to have the names space redirects deleted as we dont redirect articles to categories (see .Moxy (talk) 18:11, 21 March 2012 (UTC) Moxy (talk) 18:01, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

More concerns

Without a word of consensus from anybody ClaretAsh (talk · contribs) just started to bestow many different projects with his new template prototype and even reformat articles to comply with its new design structure, i.e. Russian culture → N Folklore of Russia. Please read what our policy/guidelines say about this sort of attitude.

Designing an infobox

Main page: Help:Designing infoboxes

It is a good idea to seek the opinions of other editors before embarking on a design of a new infobox or redesign of an existing one. Most requirements are already met by an existing infobox and most of the remainder can be met with a tweak. Unnecessary duplication leads to clutter and article divergence. Prototype your new design in your own user space. Once prototyped, propose the infobox changes to the appropriate WikiProject and gain consensus before deploying your new design in the template namespace.

For detailed guidance on how to design infoboxes, see Help:Designing infoboxes.

— Help:Infobox

More info at Template talk:Culture of Poland. Poeticbent talk 15:23, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

• Template-Class culture pages
• NA-importance culture pages
• WikiProject Culture articles
• Misplaced Pages requests for comment