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User:Joturner/Main Links

Talk

Hinduism 900 million adherents

• Archive One: 8 July 2005 to 3 February 2006
• Archive Two: 4 February 2006 to 23 March 2006
• Archive Three: 24 March 2006 to 6 April 2006

Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy map

Hello, I just wanted to say I found your color coordinated map of reactions to the cartoon controvery very interesting and informative. I think things like this that present data in means "outside of the box" are specially appealing. Good job. —Aiden 02:27, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks; I've gotten quite a few positive comments regarding the map. joturner 02:44, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Mosque

Hello, yes I think it is ready. I will help deal with any problems on it's FA. About the Selimiye picture, I think it should replace the primary picture. --a.n.o.n.y.m 01:55, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Only because it looks nice. The Afghan mosque is good, but a large important one should have the top. --a.n.o.n.y.m 03:58, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

There's people in that one. Otherwise it's good. --a.n.o.n.y.m 04:18, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Islamic Saudi Academy

POV, yes. Unverified, no. Everything in the article is a fact, including the nickname, which I am re-adding with a souce. If there is verifiable factual information you feel would balance the pov, I will not contest it. KI 14:29, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Charles Stuart William Palmer

I am curious, what was the reason for flagging this article as "This person is not notable."? Regards Oldfarm 16:02, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. FYI, Google searches for "Charles Palmer judo" and "Charles Stuart Palmer judo" yield a number of articles. He was also known as Charlie Palmer, and Google finds numerous articles under that name - (including one on Misplaced Pages, Judo). There was already a page on Misplaced Pages for Charles Palmer (a cricketer). Regards Oldfarm 03:01, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. I'm leaving the article alone (although a source or two would be nice for users like me who fail to find the man on a search engine). joturner 03:10, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Most of the article came from my own notes that I have collected over the years. On a lot, I really cannot remember the source. Many are newspaper and magazine articles that were cut out and mailed to me by friends. A lot was from memory. Regards, Oldfarm 04:09, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for the Barnstar. It is nice to be noticed. You have a neat user and talk page. --Bduke 22:34, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Netscott's block

The content of the linked site aside, Netscott was clearly acting in good faith re the WP:3RR, and quit reverting when he thought he'd run out. Further, he did discuss his changes on the talk page. It is rather Anonymous editor who declined discussion. Netscott should be unblocked.Timothy Usher 04:36, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Just a note to apologize to you Joturner for trying to revert/add that link. I must admit that it had been a month or two since the last time I had visited the Mohammed Image Archive page and when I originally visitied it the "Extreme Muhammad" section was no where near as reprehensible as it is now. Now that I've actually seen what's been added to that section, I 100% agree that such a site has no business being linked to from the Muhammad article. Netscott 05:41, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I just want to point out that I cannot block / unblock users as I am not an admin. joturner 13:12, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Mosque

I took a look at mosque -- it's shaping up nicely. Some links to articles on architecture might help -- is there an article on Islam and architecture? -- and perhaps some notice taken of Saudi subsidies for new mosques and their controversial stand against any form of decoration. Saudi-designed mosques might as well be warehouses, IMHO. I don't have time to do any of this, but you might enjoy looking for materials. Zora 02:39, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I have to deal with the objections on the article's FAC first. You seem to be a little more familiar with the situation than me, so you probably would be more able to write a section on mosques in Saudi Arabia. joturner 04:47, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Um, I must have expressed myself badly. The Saudis can build their own mosques like warehouses -- it's sad, but not my place to complain. It bugs me when they tear down beautiful old mosques to put up a warehouse that I get upset, or when they subsidize new mosques outside Saudi (as they are doing in the US) and demand that the new mosques be completely modernist and unadorned. It's exactly like the Puritans going about smashing cathedrals. It hurts me in the aesthetic :/ The problem is that I have a strong POV here, but I don't have a battery of quotations and pictures to back it up, and that's what would be needed for a good article. So I'm not going to be inserting a POV if I can't support it properly. Zora 05:46, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Mosque FAC Comment

Thanks for letting me know. I will go over the article and sources again over the next few days. Pecher 10:36, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your great work on Mosque. I hope this one will get featured. By the way, I see you are a Muslim and I would like to hear your comments about Martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadar. The article says that "fundamentalists thrust Islam by hook or by crook... by sexual harassment and forcible abductions of the daughters of Hindus and other satanic misdeeds". Is it true? --Ghirla 06:39, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

All I have to say is that Martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadar is in serious need of cleanup. It's hardly coherent as it is. If you want to discuss the merits of Mosque becoming a featured article, you can leave your comments at its FAC page. joturner 22:40, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

New user page

Looks great! Only thing is that I'd think twice before posting your picture -- as you know, wiki can get quite personal. Take care. -- Samir (the scope) 07:01, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I have nothing to fear. If John Lee Ming Keong can post his picture without a problem, I don't think I should have a problem either. joturner 07:06, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I'd give JLMK the same advice if I knew him. Take care -- Samir (the scope) धर्म 18:45, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I echo the sentiments on the new layout. Its quite nice, one of the best I've seen so far.--Kross 22:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the compliment; I'm glad you like it. joturner 22:32, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Hello

Hey buddy,

I was browsing WP:FAC recently when I ran across the article on the mosque. I was impressed by your contributions to this article and this drew me to your user page. I then noticed your RfA and read over that, and was quite disturbed by the kinds of objections that were raised to your nomination there.

I just wanted to let you know that your work here on Misplaced Pages stands out, and is appreciated, even if some people fail to see that. I am very impressed by your dedication to the mosque article; you address every concern in the FAC discussion and its featured article nomination has garnered considerable support.

I also deeply regret that your user page caused you so much trouble during your RfA. People checked that out and immediately assumed that you were totally biased and that you would abuse administrative powers. Your defense under the comments section in your RfA is impeccable, and it deeply saddens me that people would be so quick to jump to conclusions. I personally enjoyed your user page; it's obvious you put considerable effort into polishing your work on Misplaced Pages, and your user page is no exception.

Keep up the good work. Adhere to your faith. Don't let others bring you down. And thank you for your contributions. —Lantoka 10:17, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Solar eclipse

Hi,

I thought you might want to take a look at my changes in Solar eclipse since you voted in the FA discussion.

Thanks, Nick Mks 14:23, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Barnstar

Thanks for the barnstar, and by the way that was my first one. I also want to mention that I really like your user page and I enjoyed the story of your spiritual path. Cuñado - Talk 06:28, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Mosque FAC

Thanks for the heads up; I'll take a look.

In the meantime, I'm amazed by what you've done with your user pages. How did you do all this?Timothy Usher 08:33, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

The answer's simple. My user page says "I am editing from UTC-4". I believe the signature gives UTC... and so subtract four... that should give you the answer. joturner 08:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Old Skool Esperanzial note

Since this isn't the result of an AC meeting, I have decided to go Old Skool. This note is to remind you that the elections are taking place now and will end at 23:50 UTC on 2006-04-29. Please vote here. Thanks. --Celestianpower 20:42, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Jylland Posten cartoons

I read your userpage and I'm curious about your position on the Muhammad cartoons. I must applaud you for how well you've documented your conversion. KI 03:10, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

In order from who I was/am least angry at to who I most angry at:

• Least Angry At: peaceful protesters and newspapers that printed the cartoons just to convey the news
• Second-Least Angry At: Jylland-Posten
• And then... Newspapers that made a point not to print the cartoons (i.e. saying CNN, BBC, etc decided not to print the cartoons out of respect for Islam)
• Second-Most Angry At: Other newspapers that reprinted the cartoons with the intention of rubbing them in the face of displeased Muslims
• Most Angry At: Flag-burning, violent, inciteful ("Muslim") protestors

There is obviously nothing I could find wrong with the peaceful protestors. I also had no problem with newspapers that printed the cartoons so they could portray the news. I was only a bit more angry at Jylland-Posten because, although the cartoons depict the Prophet Muhammad in a terrible and incorrect way, they had every right to do it. Their intention was to stand up against bullying by radical Muslims, and I applaud that, even if I don't agree with the message in the cartoons (which I don't believe the cartoonists even agreed with). I was a little more angry at newspapers that made a big deal out of the fact that they weren't going to print the cartoons. In my opinion, it sounded as though they were saying Please don't hurt us scary Muslims; we're not printing the cartoons. I would have much rather preferred them unceremoniously not printing the cartoons. I was significantly angry at the newspapers that reprinted the cartoons for the sake of standing behind Denmark and taking sides. That served no purpose but to enrage and ignite a cultural battle; I don't believe that kind of incitement is good for the planet.

However, I'm by far most angry at the Muslims who decided to react to the issue with violence. It is truly disappointing that there are so many Muslims who resort to violence in the face of adversity. Around the world, Muslims have a bad name as terrorists and violent reactionaries. And ironically, in response to this typecasting, they conform to that very typecast. Unfortunately, I have witnessed the same kind of thing in the African American community. Such is life I suppose. I converted to Islam in the midst of the July 2005 London bombings in the hope that there was still a significant amount of good left in the Muslim community, instead of a submission to stereotypes like I see in my lost African American identity. Even after this fiasco in February, I still think there is. Somewhere. joturner 03:51, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Do you care to explain your action regarding timeline ga failure? -- tasc _deeds 18:24, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I believe I did explain the rationale on the talk page. I never said anything was unreadable in the article. joturner 19:43, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome

Please remind me to give you a "support" if you decided to candidate yourself for adminship. --Aminz 10:08, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Muhammad Cartoons and some other stuff

Yes! I feel the exact same way. I am curious, does your school have a local chapter of MSA? I started an Islamic Culture Club, which is not a member of MSA but runs along the same lines, and I want to hold Jumu'ah prayers in school, but as it is a public school I am unsure of the legality of such an action because it would be school-sponsored prayer... Any idea? Thanks, KI 03:01, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, my school does an MSA although it is not a member of the MSA. I go to a public high school as well and we do hold jumuah weekly (although this is the first year it has really been organized enough to do that). Right now, our jumuah prayers usually have fewer than seven attendants, despite a student body of 3300, but it's better than nothing. If you live in the United States, like myself, prayer within a student organization is protected under the Equal Access Act, which was passed in August 1984. It states:

It shall be unlawful for any public secondary school which receives Federal financial assistance and which has a limited open forum to deny equal access or a fair opportunity to, or discriminate against, any students who wish to conduct a meeting within that limited open forum on the basis of the religious, political, philosophical, or other content of the speech at such meetings. (full text)

That and the rest of the act are generally interpreted to mean prayer in religious clubs is allowed as long as it's not disruptive and as long as attendance is not encouraged or mandated by the school. So go ahead and try it; it's your right. Unless, of course, if you're not from the United States; it may not be then. joturner 03:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Your warning to 152.163.100.201

Hi Joturner, I suspect you've given an erroneous warning (using vandalproof) against User:152.163.100.201. . Please see Talk:Council_on_American-Islamic_Relations#removal_of_links for my reasoning. Thanks, Andjam 04:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Given the user's history of warning (although the AOL account complicates matters), the IP, and the fact that the edit summary (revert previous blanking AGAIN!) seemed to indicate that the content had been removed before, I determined the edit to be vandalism. It appears from the talk discussion that the edit was in fact legitimate. joturner 04:38, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Responded

I have responded. --Cyde Weys 04:36, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Curious...

Hi Jordan,
Thanks for sharing your steps into Islam on your user page. One in particular caught my attention: "14 August 2005: I make the intention to stop listening to music." Does (or did) that mean any and all music, or just certain kinds? Has the intention been realised? I understand if you feel these questions are too personal, with my apologies in advance if my curiosity makes me too forward. Regards, David Kernow 13:30, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Interpretations about whether music is allowed in Islam vary. I was never really particularly fond of music, especially rap and hip-hop, so I was more than happy to attempt this one. Nevertheless, it is quite hard to avoid music. Television, other people who like to listen to music in the car, etc are sources of music even if I don't want to listen to it. And on occasion, I will listen to some music intentionally. However, since I've listened to those songs so many times, it's really no big deal. So, overall, I say that has been realized. I listen to / hear music far, far less than I used to. joturner 14:40, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply, Jordan. People sometimes laugh off "gangsta culture" and the like, but there are some perturbing lyrics out there. I hope I'm not suffering from pre-senile conservatism. Though it's a minority, there is some great instrumental rock around. I reckon music is a basic kind of human expression – which, like anything else, humans can abuse – and I think I'd really miss it if I no longer (or hardly ever) listened to or took part in it. So long as people can choose. (I once worked in a warehouse where the radio was always on...) Best wishes, David Kernow 17:26, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

PS Here's a retouched version of your photo: Image:Joturner-self (retouched).jpg

I don't really miss the music. Also, thanks for editing my photo. However, I darkened it a bit (I like the darkness) and replaced the original image. It's now at Joturner-self.jpg. joturner 20:39, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Glad you liked it. I have the monitor I use set darker than seems the norm, so I probably made the photo too light. Anyway, if anyone else would like to see a brightened version, there's somewhere to direct them. Best wishes, David 21:11, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Buhari Template

Check this out.. Template:Buhari

Suggestions welcome!! «₪Mÿš†íc₪» 21:26, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I was trying to figure out what you wanted me to look at, but then I realized it was the template. The template doesn't work perfectly since all numbers must have three digits (I think {{Buhari|076|008|422}}, not {{Buhari|076|08|422}}) was what you were going for. If possible, it would be nice to have it fill in those leading zeros if the editor doesn't put them in. In addition, it seems like it should be volume|book|number, not book|volume|number as you currently have it. Lastly, I would be great to have it say Sahih Bukhari - Volume 8, Book 76, Number 422 instead of the current Buhari Book 076 Vol 08 Hadith 422. Lastly, unless there is a transliteration I'm unaware of, the template needs to be moved to Bukhari. Feel free to reply with a {{sofixit}} if that is what you want. joturner 21:45, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Qur'an templates

Hi Jordan,

I responded on Mystic's home page, but in case you're not watching it:

Four templates? That's completely unnecessary. joturner 21:46, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

No, it's not. The standard first template cannot do two things: 1) drop the word "Qur'an" where it's already been stated, or where multiple verses are being cited in one sentence. We don't wish every other word to be Qur'an - in blue no less. I discovered this problem when I went around adding the original template to various articles. 2) Cannot cite a range, except as follows: -15, which is ugly as sin. However, please let me know if you've a solution to these problems (as with the ugly zeros) within one template - of course we'd prefer just one were it possible.

Alternately, we may wish to drop Quran-usc and Quran-usc-range in favor of the num versions - at least that way, we could manually include Qur'an, or not, and only require two templates.

What do you think?Timothy Usher 00:37, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I was just going to suggest that. That's wonderful. It says never to use templates within other templates, though; I'm not sure why. Still, the zeros are so ugly, this is what we must do.

Brilliant. Thanks for all this help.

What about the range issue? Of course it doesn't matter as far as USC is concerned, we start in the same place, the end-range is just there to avoid it from falling outside the link display.

Also, what do you think of my idea to drop "Qur'an" from the link display?Timothy Usher 01:10, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes; dropping it would be a good idea. If you want, you (or I) just copy the code from {{three digit}} to the other templates. Feel free to use {{sofixit}} if you so desire. joturner 01:13, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Shall do, making the -num variants defunct.Timothy Usher 01:16, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean by that. What are you doing? Copying the code from {{three digit}}? joturner 01:21, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll do both. Question: is there a way to determine where this template has already been used? Shouldn't be too many places. That way I can go through, add the word Qur'an and cut the zeros from the display.Timothy Usher 01:24, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

You can look at "what links here" (located on the left side of every page under toolbox) on the template page. For the Qur'an-usc template, this is the what links here page. Nothing includes that template as you can see. joturner 01:38, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Help! After a few careless errors, this is what I did, and it's still not working correctly:

You can see what's happening - it's looking for the first set of close brackets, rather than moving inward from both sides.Timothy Usher 01:40, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

The template works - . I think the if statements are a bit troublesome although they are indeed implemented correctly (at least I thought they were). Perhaps you could put a message on the template talk page stating that there really is no error contrary to what the template page says. joturner 01:42, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

More Hadith Templates

• Template:Abudawud - Template:Abudawud
• Template:Muslim - Template:Muslim
• Template:Muslim-usc - Template:Muslim-usc
• Template:Bukhari -

I created all these templates. If you want a shorter version of the Bukhari template use Template:Bukhari-usc created by Timothy. If there are issues please feel free to fix them and remember to put a note on the talk page. thanks «₪Mÿš†íc₪» 09:04, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Barnstar

The Minor Barnstar for your help in creation of the very useful Qur'an and Bukhari Templates. Aminz 08:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Poll of the Day

Why did you delete my article about the Poll of the Day on Talk:Main Page? I thought it was a pretty good idea.1028 23:23, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I was reverting your deletion of another person's comment, which is usually bad and usually vandalism. I presumed (incorrectly) that both edits were therefore vandalism and reverted them both. I have no problem with your other comment. joturner 23:40, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Email

Check yer email! --Cyde Weys 04:30, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I have responded. joturner 04:42, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Hrrmmm, still haven't gotten it yet. If I haven't gotten it by tomorrow maybe try resending it? --Cyde Weys 04:47, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

As for Blair, I'm thinking a few more pictures might be good ... luckily, you're in exactly the right position to take 'em. I'm thinking of a picture of Blair Blvd. from one of the third floor overlooks and a pic of the SAC. By the way, do you guys have bomb threats/fire drills fairly often? Back when I went that was a bit of a problem ... --Cyde Weys 04:55, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I already have a picture of Blair Boulevard from the third floor between lunches as well as picture of the cupola. I have a picture of the media center, and I'll have an opportunity to take a picture of the school's SAC tomorrow. However, as of right now, I see no place to put the images, so I'm holding off on uploading them. There hasn't been a bomb threat at the school in at least three years, but there recently has been a problem with faulty ffoire alarms as well as small intended trash can fires. joturner 05:01, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Just upload them to Misplaced Pages under GFDL-self. Even though they're orphaned they'll stick around at least for a few days. Wikilink 'em here so I see em (and so they have file links). That'll do it. Then we can add them to the article as necessary. And you haven't had bomb threats in the past three years? Wow, either Blair is getting a bit better or the administration isn't telling you everything :-P And by the way, that pic of the computer lab you uploaded made me more nostalgic than I have any right of being. Are you in the Magnet? --Cyde Weys 05:04, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

The fourth paragraph of my Identity page probably gives that away. I'll upload the images momentarily. joturner 05:11, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Page moves and changes

Hey Jordan. Timothy has been making many abritrary changes to articles recently like moving Isa to Jesus in Islam and blanking and redirecting Jibril to Gabriel. He is making many changes and breaking rules while doing it. Feel free to step in and give your opinion. This should not continue like this. --a.n.o.n.y.m 23:49, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

No location, he's just doing it as he wants and ignoring the discussion that took place over the last few days on the Qur'an page. For now you can discuss on the talk page of Isa. --a.n.o.n.y.m 23:56, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Now he's just arguing for his sake. He moved the page arbitrarily, edited it several times and changed all the names. Completely ignores all discussion and expects us to keep his edits. Please join in. This is silly and he's just doing it to ruin the Islamic pages. --a.n.o.n.y.m 05:51, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Islam Peer Review

I am requesting a peer review for the Islam article. If you have any suggestions, please let us know. Thank you very much. BhaiSaab 01:55, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Alright; I'll take a look later or perhaps tomorrow. joturner 01:56, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Jazakallah Khair brother. BhaiSaab 01:59, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

The new look

Are you a universalist now? :) —Aiden 01:37, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

There was never a point where I was not a universalist; I just didn't express that as clearly as my Muslimness before. Similarly, I know the Interstate Highway System (essentially) by heart, but I choose not to depict that on my user page. joturner 04:40, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Just curious. :) I find it pretty interesting. I have many Muslim friends but none that are universalist. If you don't mind me asking, wow do you reconcile your beliefs with say, the image of a cross, when you do not believe Jesus died on a cross? —Aiden 05:28, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

We must be thinking of separate definitions of universalism. From the universalism article...

In comparative religion, universalism is the belief that true and valuable insights are available in many of the religious traditions which have grown up in various human cultures. It posits that a spiritually aware person will respect religious traditions other than his own and will be open to learning from them. It does not deny that immersion in one tradition is a useful anchor for an individual's spiritual development. While it celebrates the richness and value to be found among humankind's religious traditions, it does not necessarily deny that some things done in the name of religion, and some religious practices, are not constructive. But it distinguishes itself from the view that there is only one true faith, one uniquely chosen people, or one final prophet superseding all others.

I would have to have to distance myself from that last statement, of course. I do believe that there was a final prophet superseding all others. As for the one true faith and one uniquely chosen people, I will withhold my opinions on that. I'll just say that I believe there are many paths to peace in this world and the Hereafter. I don't exactly subscribe to the belief that all non-Muslims will go to Hell.

The universalism article as another definition states...

Universalism can also mean the wish for a closer union between all people of the world (the emergence of world citizens) and/or the aim of creating common global institutions (democratic globalization)

In these two manners, I believe I am a universalist. I don't believe that I have to believe that Jesus died on the cross to be a universalist. Unfortunately, I have encountered a closed-minded approach to other religions and beliefs among many Muslims. It bothers me greatly when religious people don't take of advantage of independent thought. joturner 05:47, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Rant...

Big big big horrible rant coming up so be warned :) -- Mindspillage is Kat Walsh, she's a lady and she even has a picture on her user page. </end big big horrible rant> - nice looking user / user talk pages by the way :) -- Tawker 05:30, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I wrote he but then, as usual, checked his her userpage to see if there was any indication of gender. I meant to change the gender pronouns, but it must have slipped my mind as I was completing my comment. joturner 05:41, 2 May 2006 (UTC)